Race & Ethnicity On TV

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Good for them for taking a stand if they felt they were worth more. It seems like too many actors take the deal offered to them only to later complain they aren't or didn't make as much as a costar. But its a negotiation and it is up to the actor to try and get what they want, not the studio to just give it to them. And a big part of that is being prepared to walk away if you don't get offered what you want.

It's too bad their costars didn't stand up with them... but you know how they do.

[callie lee 29]

What I find additionally interesting about the Hawaii 5-0 situation is that Criminal Minds recently went through something similar only it was with two female actors wanting parity with male co-stars (all white). They got it. (Which they should have IMO) - even though I've watched maybe 15 minutes of 5-0, seems like Kim and Park should have too. Wasn't Kim an original lead?

[Raja]

34 minutes ago, callie lee 29 said:

What I find additionally interesting about the Hawaii 5-0 situation is that Criminal Minds recently went through something similar only it was with two female actors wanting parity with male co-stars (all white). They got it. (Which they should have IMO) - even though I've watched maybe 15 minutes of 5-0, seems like Kim and Park should have too. Wasn't Kim an original lead?

They had 4 original regulars. The two white guys as the commander, a Navy SEAL joining the state to find his father's killer and his best friend second in command an outsider to Hawaii. Kim as a disgraced former cop and Park as his cousin a retired surfer entering into the family business, policing Hawaii. Since then as regulars they added an Asian guy as Medical Examiner, although he missed many episodes and left during the middle of last season.. Also  couple of white women spent a year each as a fellow cop and the girlfriend of the lead white guy. And then a black guy as another cop and a Latino as a consultant.

The reoccurring roles have mostly been stunt casting or Asians however one Asian was replaced by a white guy who plays the cousin of the outsider white guy. 

[callie lee 29]

Ahh, didn't know how early Park was on the show. Personally, the only one's I had heard of when the show started was Kim (because he's super hot and from Lost, which know one could avoid) and Caan because of the Ocean's trilogy. I know a lot of times when the main cast negotiates together that works for increases, do the other two guys have a different contract schedule than Kim and Park?

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

It's too bad their costars didn't stand up with them... but you know how they do.

Other shows' casts have stood together for parity (Big Bang Theory being the most recent), while others have been almost hostile in the negotiations (like Castle).  Looks like Alex and Scott only believe in "ohana" (family) on the show.

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Big Bang Theory being the most recent),

Mayim alluded to the fact that the story that the main three took a paycut weren't true by answering a question about it that people shouldn't believe everything they read. 

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Good for them for taking a stand if they felt they were worth more. It seems like too many actors take the deal offered to them only to later complain they aren't or didn't make as much as a costar. But its a negotiation and it is up to the actor to try and get what they want, not the studio to just give it to them. And a big part of that is being prepared to walk away if you don't get offered what you want.

I understand this POV but I think it's hard when the system tends to place more value on white men* than perhaps any other demographic.  Often, their value is just assumed while there is more subtle pressure on non-white men to "prove" their value.  There has been a lot more published on this when it comes to gender but a lot of the same things apply for POC.

When I say system, I think of how Gillian Anderson was offered half of what David Duchovny was offered for the X-Files reboot. Negotiating is great but she, a woman, had to negotiate a doubling of her salary. A doubling. [And this was after she had to do it when the show was on the air.] And it's also a system where there are more roles and more substantial roles available to/given to white men which often makes it harder for women or POC to just walk away.

And take the American Hustle scenario where the two supporting male actors were on one level of pay and the women were on another level.  That information hadn't been revealed until the Sony emails leaked so Jennifer Lawrence didn't know. Was it just a coincidence?  Or  were the men favored in negotiations? I respect what Bradley Cooper said about being more open about his pay with his female co-stars. Even if he doesn't negotiate in solidarity, it'll lift the veil on what the benchmarks are.

*I throw in cis and straight in here, obviously.  Or closeted.

[jhlipton]

6 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Mayim alluded to the fact that the story that the main three took a paycut weren't true by answering a question about it that people shouldn't believe everything they read. 

That's too bad.  I don't like the show, but I was liking the actors.

[DearEvette]

16 hours ago, callie lee 29 said:

What I find additionally interesting about the Hawaii 5-0 situation is that Criminal Minds recently went through something similar only it was with two female actors wanting parity with male co-stars (all white). They got it. (Which they should have IMO) - even though I've watched maybe 15 minutes of 5-0, seems like Kim and Park should have too. Wasn't Kim an original lead?

Kim and Park were main characters right from season one.  So the fact that they had to negotiate pay parity and only get offered up to within 15% of  O'Laughlin and Caan were making after SEVEN years in the show just boggles my mind.  Well it really doesn't cuz CBS and white men.  Looking at their film and tv credits Caan and O'Loughlin don't stand out any better than Park or Kim.  In fact it feels like given his high visibility on a buzzy show like Lost right before he started H50, Kim should have been the pricier star.   For me at least the only names I actually recognized right off the bat were his and Grace Park's because I was a die-hard Battlestar Galactica fan.  I couldn't name one tv show or movie the other two were in.  I can understand if Caan and O'Loughlin had better agents at the start, but come on, seven years into the show and CBS won't value the POC actors who have been just as instrumental to the show's success?

But pay parity with white stars being deemed more valuable isn't new.  It is a sad old tale.  The most egregious example I can remember was when the news went around that the lone white actress on the BET show The Game made more than all the other black actors.  Tia Mowrey who was considered the lead actually made something like $25,000 an episode less. 

[Jaded]

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

  The most egregious example I can remember was when the news went around that the lone white actress on the BET show The Game made more than all the other black actors.  

The Sweet Valley High girl?!? 

[Jaded]

Five-0: Daniel Dae Kim Opens Up About 'Sad' Exit, 'Honor' of Playing Chin Ho

[GHScorpiosRule]

WORD! @DearEvette! The only other show O'Loughlin did before 5-0 was that vampire show which was axed after a season. I'd never heard of him or seen him in anything before.  And no, I didn't watch that show-just recall seeing him pushing people to watch. And I'd never heard of Caan, and didn't learn he was James Caan's son until later. So all this is just BULLSHIT OF the Highest Order.?

But, like you said: it's CBS, White Men, led by that Uber douche Moonves.

[Dee]

39 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

But pay parity with white stars being deemed more valuable isn't new.  It is a sad old tale.  The most egregious example I can remember was when the news went around that the lone white actress on the BET show The Game made more than all the other black actors.  Tia Mowrey who was considered the lead actually made something like $25,000 an episode less. 

The BET/Game situation is pretty bad but nothing tops FOX deliberately sabotaging Living Single & New York Undercover.

[Kel Varnsen]

19 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I understand this POV but I think it's hard when the system tends to place more value on white men* than perhaps any other demographic.  Often, their value is just assumed while there is more subtle pressure on non-white men to "prove" their value.  There has been a lot more published on this when it comes to gender but a lot of the same things apply for POC.

When I say system, I think of how Gillian Anderson was offered half of what David Duchovny was offered for the X-Files reboot. Negotiating is great but she, a woman, had to negotiate a doubling of her salary. A doubling. [And this was after she had to do it when the show was on the air.] And it's also a system where there are more roles and more substantial roles available to/given to white men which often makes it harder for women or POC to just walk away.

And take the American Hustle scenario where the two supporting male actors were on one level of pay and the women were on another level.  That information hadn't been revealed until the Sony emails leaked so Jennifer Lawrence didn't know. Was it just a coincidence?  Or  were the men favored in negotiations? I respect what Bradley Cooper said about being more open about his pay with his female co-stars. Even if he doesn't negotiate in solidarity, it'll lift the veil on what the benchmarks are.

*I throw in cis and straight in here, obviously.  Or closeted.

I don't know, anytime i hear one of these stories the first thing i wonder is if the person getting paid less asked to be paid more, and if they were willing to walk if they did not get it. The fact that Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park did is good in that respect. The show will almost certainly take a ratings hit and next time they are on a show the producers will know not to jerk them around.  

As for Jennifer Lawrence, at her fame level she should have been able to negotiate just about any salary she wanted. The fact that money was left on the table is on her agent. Just because other stars got more money doesn't obligate the studio to give her more, just out of the goodness of their heart. In fact their actual obligation is to try and pay stars as little as possible.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

As for Jennifer Lawrence, at her fame level she should have been able to negotiate just about any salary she wanted.

This seems belied by every story in Hollywood where producers don't see female stars as box office bankable as there male counterparts. Same for minority actors and double for minority actresses.

[ennui]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't know, anytime i hear one of these stories the first thing i wonder is if the person getting paid less asked to be paid more, and if they were willing to walk if they did not get it. The fact that Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park did is good in that respect. The show will almost certainly take a ratings hit

It depends on who the replacements are ... I anticipate two new Asian actors. 

[biakbiak]

49 minutes ago, ennui said:

depends on who the replacements are ... I anticipate two new Asian actors. 

Even if it's two Asian actors they probably won't bring the same fans that DDK and GP brought initially. The show is on its last legs and was touch and go for renewal so probably won't be that attractive for many actors. Heck they might not even added two new chatacters.

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

The BET/Game situation is pretty bad but nothing tops FOX deliberately sabotaging Living Single & New York Undercover.

I remember what FOX did to New York Undercover but what did they do to Living Single?

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't know, anytime i hear one of these stories the first thing i wonder is if the person getting paid less asked to be paid more, and if they were willing to walk if they did not get it.

So do you think white straight men have different agents more willing to negotiate than women and POC?  And that's why there's a pay disparity? 

They don't.  They often have the same agents.  They're just asked to do more work for their non-white male clients.  And if women/POC are given a lower offer as a starting point, an agent doing equal work would lead to a lower salary for those women/POC.   This is why pay transparency is becoming more popular because these issues rarely fix themselves with the secrecy usually surrounding issues of pay.

It's easy to say "just walk away" when execs are usually more willing to let women/POC walk (see the Hawaii 5-0 situation) while bending over backwards for their white male stars (again, see Hawaii 5-0). 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Irlandesa

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Even if it's two Asian actors they probably won't bring the same fans that DDK and GP brought initially.

Not to mention the fans they've acquired since. 

[xaxat]

I'll feel bad for Chi McBride and any other POC still on the show, but I hope Hawaii 5-0 crashes and burns like Sleepy Hollow did.

[Minneapple]

Man, CBS suuuuucks. First they pull that bullshit with the women from Criminal Minds (multiple times), now this with Hawaii 5-0. 

[Haleth]

I'm shocked Hawaii 5-0 is still on.  I gave it up years ago because it was just so terrible.  DDK and Park were the only reasons I started watching anyway.  (BSG and Lost fan.)  No doubt they will both find new projects immediately.

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

So do you think white straight men have different agents more willing to negotiate than women and POC?  And that's why there's a pay disparity? 

They don't.  They often have the same agents.  They're just asked to do more work for their non-white male clients.  And if women/POC are given a lower offer as a starting point, an agent doing equal work would lead to a lower salary for those women/POC.   This is why pay transparency is becoming more popular because these issues rarely fix themselves with the secrecy usually surrounding issues of pay.

It's easy to say "just walk away" when execs are usually more willing to let women/POC walk (see the Hawaii 5-0 situation) while bending over backwards for their white male stars (again, see Hawaii 5-0). 

So what is the fix, other than actors like Daniel Dae Kim saying "this is what i am worth, if you want someone of my level of fame/talent/fanbase this is what i expect to be paid". When they decide not to and get some second rate, low budget replacement i fully expect ratings to go down. If actors do that enough times things will change.

Because it is not like studios are going to give anyone more money out of the goodness of their hearts. And roles and actors are so different, with so many variables, that negotiations almost always have to be an individual thing. If they weren't Jim Carrey wouldn't have made 140 times as much as Jeff Daniels for Dumb and Dumber.

[Trini]

Hawaii Five-0 EP responds to the Kim + Park exit controversy: http://deadline.com/2017/07/hawaii-five-o-showrunner-daniel-dae-kim-grace-park-offered-unprecedented-raises-peter-lenkov-1202124685/

[Jaded]

If the offered raises were "unprecedented" they must have been making a whole lot less then O'Loughlin and Caan.

[pivot]

Seriously, how much less were they making than the charisma free white guy and his sidekick? The raises were still going to leave them making ten percent less than the other two leads. Have any of the remaining cast said anything publicly? I can understand the charisma free guy keeping quiet. Lord knows he is never getting a starring role again. 

[Dee]

I just hope their actions don't get them blackballed. What worked for Emmy Rossum doesn't work for everyone.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So what is the fix, other than actors like Daniel Dae Kim saying "this is what i am worth, if you want someone of my level of fame/talent/fanbase this is what i expect to be paid".

As I mentioned earlier, I think the first step is pay transparency.  It's likely there was some here as DDK and GP knew it wasn't what they were getting.  The good thing about pay transparency is that you know if you're negotiating from the same starting points.  And sometimes companies who think they know what is most valuable about their shows do adjust their perspectives when they're shamed.

[topanga]

40 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

As I mentioned earlier, I think the first step is pay transparency.  It's likely there was some here as DDK and GP knew it wasn't what they were getting.  The good thing about pay transparency is that you know if you're negotiating from the same starting points.  And sometimes companies who think they know what is most valuable about their shows do adjust their perspectives when they're shamed.

How much do actors usually get paid per episode on an ensemble show? I'm talking about a network show like Scandal, HTGAWM, Grey's Anatomy, CSI, NCIS, etc? 

On 7/5/2017 at 9:26 PM, Neurochick said:

I remember what FOX did to New York Undercover but what did they do to Living Single?

Similar treatment, according to the cast. They were never treated like the celebrities they were--in terms of having on-set food, decent dressing rooms, etc. (the examples I listed were trivial--I simply can't remember the more important ones). And I'm sure their salaries were low in relation to the popularity of the show and the money it was bringing in for FOX. And the show was unceremoniously cancelled despite its high ratings. I do remember that Fox tried to put the blame on the cast, saying the actors were perennially late and became difficult to work with. I don't know the whole truth, but I know the cast was trying to negotiate for higher salaries. If I'm remembering correctly, the cast actually planned a hold out before filming began one season, but it fell apart when almost everyone changed their minds and went to work. 

[Enero]

2 hours ago, pivot said:

Seriously, how much less were they making than the charisma free white guy and his sidekick? The raises were still going to leave them making ten percent less than the other two leads. Have any of the remaining cast said anything publicly? I can understand the charisma free guy keeping quiet. Lord knows he is never getting a starring role again.

Unfortunately I wouldn't count on it. This guy has the charisma of a dishrag, but someone at CBS loves him. If I'm not mistaken CBS launched a couple of shows with him as lead, back to back, each failing, until Hawaii 5-0 finally stuck, probably because it was a remake. 

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

How much do actors usually get paid per episode on an ensemble show? I'm talking about a network show like Scandal, HTGAWM, Grey's Anatomy, CSI, NCIS, etc? 

Depends on the show, the actor, etc. Movie stars will make more money. Also some actors have profit-sharing deals or have a hand in producing their shows. Variety has some per-episode figures (not all -- for example Jensen Ackles is on this list but his costar Jared Padalecki is not; you have to imagine they both make the same or similar amounts).

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/highest-paid-tv-actors-salaries-1201874142/

On that list, the salaries for Lauren Graham and Alexis Bledel are a bit skewed -- they were for the Gilmore Girls reboot on Netflix and only for four episodes. Still a lot of money!

1 hour ago, Enero said:

Unfortunately I wouldn't count on it. This guy has the charisma of a dishrag, but someone at CBS loves him. If I'm not mistaken CBS launched a couple of shows with him as lead, back to back, each failing, until Hawaii 5-0 finally stuck, probably because it was a remake. 

He probably had a development deal or talent holding deal with CBS. When you see an actor bounce around to different shows/pilots on a single network, they probably have a development deal. 

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Hawaii Five-0 EP responds to the Kim + Park exit controversy: http://deadline.com/2017/07/hawaii-five-o-showrunner-daniel-dae-kim-grace-park-offered-unprecedented-raises-peter-lenkov-1202124685/

"We were really screwing them over; they complained because we were screwing them over less."

[pivot]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Depends on the show, the actor, etc. Movie stars will make more money. Also some actors have profit-sharing deals or have a hand in producing their shows. Variety has some per-episode figures (not all -- for example Jensen Ackles is on this list but his costar Jared Padalecki is not; you have to imagine they both make the same or similar amounts).

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/highest-paid-tv-actors-salaries-1201874142/

On that list, the salaries for Lauren Graham and Alexis Bledel are a bit skewed -- they were for the Gilmore Girls reboot on Netflix and only for four episodes. Still a lot of money!

He probably had a development deal or talent holding deal with CBS. When you see an actor bounce around to different shows/pilots on a single network, they probably have a development deal. 

How on earth did Alex get a development deal? He was a complete nobody until his current show. I can see Scott Caan having a deal due to his dad. But Alex?

[Raja]

9 hours ago, topanga said:

How much do actors usually get paid per episode on an ensemble show? I'm talking about a network show like Scandal, HTGAWM, Grey's Anatomy, CSI, NCIS, etc? 

Similar treatment, according to the cast. They were never treated like the celebrities they were--in terms of having on-set food, decent dressing rooms, etc. (the examples I listed were trivial--I simply can't remember the more important ones). And I'm sure their salaries were low in relation to the popularity of the show and the money it was bringing in for FOX. And the show was unceremoniously cancelled despite its high ratings. I do remember that Fox tried to put the blame on the cast, saying the actors were perennially late and became difficult to work with. I don't know the whole truth, but I know the cast was trying to negotiate for higher salaries. If I'm remembering correctly, the cast actually planned a hold out before filming began one season, but it fell apart when almost everyone changed their minds and went to work. 

I thought the thing with New York Undercover was killing off Detective Torres in favor of  Detectives McNamera and Delany, while they did flip the race of the squad Lieutenant there was no mistaking what was up.  I guess we were looking for a cast change to be like Eve having Ali Landry from the beginning a decade later

On 7/5/2017 at 9:43 AM, DearEvette said:

Kim and Park were main characters right from season one.  So the fact that they had to negotiate pay parity and only get offered up to within 15% of  O'Laughlin and Caan were making after SEVEN years in the show just boggles my mind.  Well it really doesn't cuz CBS and white men.  Looking at their film and tv credits Caan and O'Loughlin don't stand out any better than Park or Kim.  In fact it feels like given his high visibility on a buzzy show like Lost right before he started H50, Kim should have been the pricier star.   For me at least the only names I actually recognized right off the bat were his and Grace Park's because I was a die-hard Battlestar Galactica fan.  I couldn't name one tv show or movie the other two were in.  I can understand if Caan and O'Loughlin had better agents at the start, but come on, seven years into the show and CBS won't value the POC actors who have been just as instrumental to the show's success?

But pay parity with white stars being deemed more valuable isn't new.  It is a sad old tale.  The most egregious example I can remember was when the news went around that the lone white actress on the BET show The Game made more than all the other black actors.  Tia Mowrey who was considered the lead actually made something like $25,000 an episode less. 

The problem began with the reboot instead of continuation concept. So it played like a period piece Scotland Yard detective going to the colonies to teach the locals how to police with Detective Williams and Commander McGarrett commanding all the people of color, So years after Scott Caan stopped being first among equals on screen, he still was business wise

[Minneapple]

8 hours ago, pivot said:

How on earth did Alex get a development deal? He was a complete nobody until his current show. I can see Scott Caan having a deal due to his dad. But Alex?

A lot of "nobody" actors get development deals. Studios/networks try to identify upcoming talent and give them holding deals. Priyanka Chopra had one with ABC before she was well-known here in the US; that's how she got Quantico. 

[DearEvette]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

"We were really screwing them over; they complained because we were screwing them over less."

LOL.  CBS should just never respond.  They just make things worse. 

Reminds me of when the news broke that they went with white casting on their upcoming new show where the writer had written the characters specifically as POC.  Their response of "well we asked that one black actor if they wanted the role but they turned us down so we had no choice to offer it to a white actor."

The "unprecedented" raise thing simply confirmed how justified Park and Kim are in walking.   Cuz, Jesus, if you have you have to offer a ginormous raise and still can;t match the other two mains, one of whom works half as much, then that is just fucked up.  I hope they both land somewhere better. 

[Chaos Theory]

14 hours ago, Enero said:

Unfortunately I wouldn't count on it. This guy has the charisma of a dishrag, but someone at CBS loves him. If I'm not mistaken CBS launched a couple of shows with him as lead, back to back, each failing, until Hawaii 5-0 finally stuck, probably because it was a remake. 

1;  If you are going to play the pay paridy game take in a few aspects past shows; 

He does have a few bland shows to his name. There was an early vampire cop drama called Moonlight.     It lasted like one season.    I think that's where I recognized him from.    I think it was on CBS as well   Other then that there were some minor appearences and third rate movies.

Grace Park was on BSG playing multiple rolls (two of which had major long running storylines)  and there was also The Cleaner (Which I think I am the only person who actually watched) which only lasted two seasons but was quality tv.  

Just saying. 

2:  You also do need to understand that at least Grace Park might not have been written as a lead but as only later developed into one.  Which means her pay should at least resemble what a lead gets as her roll expands.  If CBS doesn't want to pay her the same as the two white guys then give her other options other then money like show futures or whatever.   

3:  Future possibly.  Is CBS and the show planning on raising the salary of the two bland white guys any time soon?  Because that would be a further slap in the face....but if the show offers a garentee to Grace Park for a future pay raise then...,.well

Just saying.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Reminds me of when the news broke that they went with white casting on their upcoming new show where the writer had written the characters specifically as POC.  Their response of "well we asked that one black actor if they wanted the role but they turned us down so we had no choice to offer it to a white actor."

Mission Control, which will star David Giuntoli (yawn...) and Poppy Montgomery (easily the worst part of Without a Trace) and have Wunmi Mosaku and Ricardo Chavira as "field negroes supporting actors".  Meaning the two minority actors will almost certainly be paid far less than the "leads". (Mosaku has a higher StarMeter -- more pageviews -- than Giuntoli or Montgomery; she should be paid more than them.)

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:29 PM, Ohwell said:

Sofia Coppola's movie is The Beguiled, a remake of the 1971 movie starring Clint Eastwood and Geraldine Page.  In the original, there was a black woman named Hallie who also formed a relationship with Clint's character.  So it boggles my mind why Coppola would leave out this black woman.  I definitely won't be seeing the remake for that reason, along with the fact that I doubt it's better than the original.

It shouldn't boggle your mind.  Sofia Coppola is obsessed with thin attractive white women.  Look at all of her movies.  I'm kind of annoyed that NOW people in the media seem to be figuring out Sofia Coppola's race issues.  Lost in Translation is one of the most offensive movies I've ever watched.

Am I supposed to be impressed by fucking Alex O'Loughlin?  I never knew who TF this guy was. I checked out his iMDB resume and I'm not impressed. I've known who Daniel Dae Kim is for years and years.  And obviously to me he's the most famous cast member. A lot of people seem to be talking like Alex O deserves this super high salary that Daniel and Grace don't, but why!?

On 6/30/2017 at 9:17 PM, jhlipton said:

I'm going to reserve judgement until we see how is added to the cast.  Right now, we have 2 white male leads and a black male lead, with a Latino and a Hawaiian as recurring characters.  Frankly, this show has always had more problems with female characters than with People of Color.

Reserve judgement?  The show paid white actors more than the Asian actors, it's pretty cut and dry.....

Edited July 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Kel Varnsen]

19 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

As I mentioned earlier, I think the first step is pay transparency.  It's likely there was some here as DDK and GP knew it wasn't what they were getting.  The good thing about pay transparency is that you know if you're negotiating from the same starting points.  And sometimes companies who think they know what is most valuable about their shows do adjust their perspectives when they're shamed.

Even with pay transparency you still need actors on the other side of the table using that information to try and get more money, and not signing if they don't . If they don't ask for it you can really expect to just be given it.

The funny thing is if it was just Alex O'Laughlin making more than everyone else you could make an argument for it. I mean he is the lead, he is probably in the most scenes (so longest days) and he probably does the stunts/fight scenes. But Scott Caan getting more than Daniel Dae Kim? Does somebody at CBS think The Godfather is a documentary and his dad is actually in the mafia? Because as i mentioned in a Hawaii 5-0 episode thread other than the acrobat guy (who isn't even an actor) and the computers guy he is the least famous of the Oceans 11 crew.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/5/2017 at 8:03 PM, biakbiak said:

This seems belied by every story in Hollywood where producers don't see female stars as box office bankable as there male counterparts. Same for minority actors and double for minority actresses.

There was a fabulous Forbes article recently where it was discussed 

1) who are the most UNDERPAID actors -- the person who makes the MOST money box-office wise, and is made the least for it:  Answer was Scarlett Johansson (Avengers movies.)

2)  Who are the most OVERPAID actors -- the person who makes the LEAST money box-office wise, and is made the most for it.  Answer was Johnny Depp.

LOL, is anyone surprised?  

I tried to Google it, this might have been in 2015, this sum up has different actors, but Mila and Scarlett are in the top 3.

All men in the top 10 OVERPAID, and 5/10 women in the top 10 UNDERPAID.  I think they release this every year?  Also interesting that 2/5 of the underpaid actors are men of colour.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-35161380

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2015/12/22/hollywoods-most-overpaid-actors-of-2015-johnny-depp-leads-denzel-washington-will-ferrell/&refURL=https://www.google.ca/&referrer=https://www.google.ca/

Edited July 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Dee]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

LOL.  CBS should just never respond.  They just make things worse. 

It's their trademark. Remember the multiple Person of Interest issues with Taraji? They never learn.

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It shouldn't boggle your mind.  Sofia Coppola is obsessed with thin attractive white women.  Look at all of her movies.  I'm kind of annoyed that NOW people in the media seem to be figuring out Sofia Coppola's race issues.  Lost in Translation is one of the most offensive movies I've ever watched.

Other than The Beguiled, I'm not familiar with any of her other movies.  The only thing I know about her is that she was awful in Godfather III.  So that's why it was mind-boggling to me that she would leave out this black female character

[angora]

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The "unprecedented" raise thing simply confirmed how justified Park and Kim are in walking.   Cuz, Jesus, if you have you have to offer a ginormous raise and still can;t match the other two mains, one of whom works half as much, then that is just fucked up.  I hope they both land somewhere better. 

It's like those annoying Verizon commercials with Ricky Gervais:  "If you're four times better than you used to be, and you're STILL not the best, maybe your slogan should be, 'Not as rubbish as we were.'"  Daniel Dae Kim not being an enormous star is absolutely ridiculous.

[slf]

On 7/5/2017 at 5:10 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Just because other stars got more money doesn't obligate the studio to give her more, just out of the goodness of their heart. In fact their actual obligation is to try and pay stars as little as possible.

And yet somehow they always end up paying white men far more than everyone else. White men, white women, black men, black women, latinos, latinas, asian men, asian women, etc. I mean, that's eight demographics right there, right? And yet somehow, somehow, it's always the same one that gets the highest pay which totally coincidentally is the very demographic that is making most hiring decisions in Hollywood. Huh.

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Am I supposed to be impressed by fucking Alex O'Loughlin?  I never knew who TF this guy was. I checked out his iMDB resume and I'm not impressed. I've known who Daniel Dae Kim is for years and years.  And obviously to me he's the most famous cast member. A lot of people seem to be talking like Alex O deserves this super high salary that Daniel and Grace don't, but why!?

I kind of didn't like O'Loughlin when I started watching Hawaii Five-0 because the fans of one of his earlier shows, Moonlight, were so, y'know, intense about how great he was and: they lied. I gave Moonlight a shot (I'm always here for vampires and I recognized the female lead from Underworld) and I was bored to tears. The guy has no charisma. The most common criticism of him is that he's just so so bland, he's actually known for it. So when I say I went into HF0 for Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park I am not kidding. O'Loughlin is what most critics call "inoffensive" in that he doesn't actively suck but he's not really bringing anything to the table. Scott Caan is decent at what he does but what he does is this one really specific thing (the sarcastic sidekick who's basically the lead's nagging work husband) that about fifteen other actors are doing on tv right now. Neither of them is more talented or attractive or famous then Dae Kim and Park and certainly not more deserving.

Edited July 8, 2017 by slf

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Mittengirl said:

If I had a chance to cast, I would get rid of Scott and Grace (nothing against her, just don't like Kono), keep Alex, Daniel and Chi and reduce the roles of Jorge and Taylor (Kamekono).  I would replace Kono's character with a more mature, believable cop; something less cartoonish.

This would work for me.

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Reserve judgement?  The show paid white actors more than the Asian actors, it's pretty cut and dry.....

My comment was strictly about the number of actors, in response to

On 6/30/2017 at 6:29 PM, Trini said:

Hawaii Five-0 was one of the few network shows where the majority of the regular cast are minorities. (5 out of 7)

Strictly in the context of that comment and that comment alone, I'll reserve judgement -- if they hire two Asian actors then the numbers will be the same.  Obviously, any new hires will be paid less than the white men -- on that part, there's no reason to reserve judgement.

[Irlandesa]

11 hours ago, Minneapple said:

A lot of "nobody" actors get development deals. Studios/networks try to identify upcoming talent and give them holding deals. Priyanka Chopra had one with ABC before she was well-known here in the US; that's how she got Quantico. 

Priyanka Chopra was rather unknown in the US, although I had heard of her, but she actually had proven star power (which is why I had heard of her).  It was unknown whether or not that would translate to the US but she had some bonafides.  Alex did not.

But we don't know if he had a deal. 

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Even with pay transparency you still need actors on the other side of the table using that information to try and get more money, and not signing if they don't . If they don't ask for it you can really expect to just be given it.

It should be the last resort because for it to be effective means that execs will need to realize they're wrong.  But part of the reason we get to walk away status is because of the systematic mistaken beliefs held by execs.  

The problem with the "they should just walk away" is that it will continue to disadvantage certain groups of people. Let's say James Roday (white) and Dule Hill (black) go in for the same part in two different timelines. TPTB of the first timeline are pretty certain that they need Roday.  And TPTB of the second timeline are equally pretty certain Dule's their man.  Now Roday and Hill both ask for 100K/episode or they'll walk away.  The odds are pretty heavy in that scenario that TPTB in the first timeline are more likely to convince themselves that the success of their project hinges on Roday and will pay him that amount than TPTB in the second timeline will do the same for Dule.  

The truth is, the chances of success of any television project with either one in the lead role is probably about equal but for whatever intangible reason, execs are more likely to see Roday as the more valuable entity.  In the Dule scenario, he would walk.  Execs would throw up their hands at the demanding actor and search for someone else.  And that someone else would probably be white. And get paid more than they offered Dule. They're not likely to say "oh we fucked up" until outside voices start pointing at them and saying "well you fucked up."

Edited July 8, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

This would work for me.

My comment was strictly about the number of actors, in response to

Strictly in the context of that comment and that comment alone, I'll reserve judgement -- if they hire two Asian actors then the numbers will be the same.  Obviously, any new hires will be paid less than the white men -- on that part, there's no reason to reserve judgement.

Don't you think it's kind of insulting to treat people of colour as interchangeable?  Kind of like, collectibles?  And I think it's horrible the show forced out 2 actors by refusing to pay them higher so they could hire some new actors that they don't have to pay as much.  It's just gross, bad treatment all around.  I don't know how anyone could even be okay watching.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[memememe76]

I only started watching Hawaiian 5 O because of Kim and me being a huge Lost fan. It seemed apparent fro, the start that Kim's character was going to be supporting. I gave up after 4 or so episodes and never looked back. 

While it is terrible he was treated so poorly, it does mean he can be on a show I will actually watch.