S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Shanna Marie]

It's disgusting that the show found a way to have Ramsay rape Sansa and then get the viewers talking about how they root for the rapist to win because Stannis is a bigger monster. He's such a damn supervillain. Consequences and realism as the excuse for why bad things happen in GOT? Nah, doesn't apply to Ramsay, he just pulls off impossible feats because of his awesomeness. He's the villainous equivalent of Tyrion, the producers' pet.

I think this is the reason Sansa's rape bothered me more than all the other rapes in this show. With everyone else, it was depicted as "this is a terrible, horrible, awful person to be doing such a thing." But I'm getting the sense that Ramsay is kind of a dark Mary Sue for someone on the writing/producing staff -- a fantasy self-insert whom they see as kind of cool and awesome. He may be awful, but he's got beautiful women wanting to be with him and jealous of someone he's going to rape, he can reduce a man to nothing psychologically, he gets the witty quips, he can send a squad of fierce soldiers running with his leer and bare chest alone, he can bring down a mighty army with 20 men in a sneak attack without getting caught or even noticed until it's too late. And as a result, that makes the rape look suspiciously like it's playing out someone's personal fantasy rather than further evidence that this is a person who deserves to die horribly.

[franopy]

I think Davos knew or at least had a very strong hunch that something might happen to Shireen while he was away - I didn't know what was coming, but got a strong sense of foreboding from their goodbye scene as well as when Stannis was sending Davos back to get supplies from the Wall. I read that scene as Stannis sending Davos away to prevent him from getting killed for trying to stop the burning because we know he would have stopped at nothing (at least I am convinced of that). So to me that was Stannis' way of saying I don't want you here because something terrible is going to happen and you'd either die trying to stop it or be burdened by feeling guilty for having been here without saving her life. And Davos knew that something was up. Of course now, Davos is going to feel very guilty for not having insisted on taking Shireen with him or simply sneaking her out of the camp, but I doubt that's how Stannis will see it. I'm curious to see where this goes.

 

This season has really given me pause. I always knew the source material was terribly violent, often very sick and twisted and I have often questioned whether either books or show really needed ALL of the gore and abuse and violence and more abuse and perversions to get their point across. Since so much of the books is meandering prose, I'm guilty of extensive skimming and maybe some of the books' sickness (for lack of a better word), but seeing it all in its gory technicolour glory is pushing it to the point of overkill, at least for me, but I may be too soft after all.

 

ETA: Re: that poor burning horse. I was so hoping it was just going to start to roll around in the snow to extinguish the flames before the burns got too bad, but I suppose that's too much to ask of a mere horse...

Edited June 8, 2015 by franopy

[ihartcoffee]

While it does suck for Dany's crew to be left behind, To me it looks they were so enthralled with her riding a dragon that they weren't even thinking of that. After all that was in all the stories of they read about Targaryen's in the past. It's pretty much anyone can kill a dragon, but it takes something more to ride a dragon. 

 

 

That is more the show writers fault.  It made more sense the way it occurred in the books.  They can't all get on the dragon.  Why were there SO MANY Harpies?  Where is her army? 

 

Yes agreed I was cheering for Drogon and when he seemed to be hurting felt so AWFUL. So I was thrilled to see her get up on him and take him out of there. He was a DRAGON and fire-breathing but there were a lot of people hurling spears.

And if he died everyone inside the circle was going to die anyway so what choice did she have?

I dcon't know how the other dragons willbe reconciled but somehow they will. The sheer love between her and her baby black sheep dragon was thrilling.

 

I don't see why Shireen had to be burned, the most cruel way to go.

I think there's no doubt she's dead. She stopped screaming because she inhaled smoke and died.

I think they had him getting hurt so she would be inspired to get on and ride off to safety.  The CGI could have been better.  I've been looking forward to that scene all season!!

 

Hated the Shireen part.  Kept hoping some magic would save her.  

[FemmyV]

I have to wonder if D & D decided to mess up every weak-ass blog writer out there who thought they were being cool to use the word "penultimate" in their headers and ledes, as in, "every season, the penultimate episode is the one that kicks the most ass," give or take. As GoT "penultimate" shows go, this was underwhelming. We got what? Two crucial scenes and two setups?

 

What 5-9 did do well, I think, was offer sets of comparisons and contrasts of what various remaining players will do when they're between a rock & a hard place, compared to Jon Snow's almost perfect score on the Hero Test.

 

Stannis: when all is said and done, he remained true to form. Sorry, Shireen. Sorry viewers who forgot about Renly and the Shadow Baby, sorry to those who enjoyed his more human side, and to those who realized what an attractive man Stephen Dillane is (go back and watch John Adams - Dillane made Thomas Jefferson look hawt !!! ) and want to root for his character.  Sum: when pushed into a corner, Stannis will A) cheat and use magic, and B) kill his own progeny to get what he wants. Duty? Stannis put Shireen on the stake for duty? Right.

 

"A ruler who kills those devoted to her is not a ruler who inspires devotion." — Tyrion, to Dany. Stannis just jumped the shark. I wonder who Davos will switch loyalty to? or will he go down with the ship?

 

Dany:

 

The difference between Jon and Dany seems clear...when the wights were breaking down the wall at Hardhome, Jon rallied and rushed to the wildlings' defense. Danny summoned Drogon, and hopped aboard, leaving her crew somewhat stranded. And yes, Dany does need to rethink her strategies, but burning the rest of the Harpies before blowing town might have been the more responsible act.

 

  That was my initial assessment as well, but as has been pointed out, the longer Drogon stayed there, the more spears would have wound up in his hide. Better to compare and contrast Dany to Selyse — two negligent mommies. Dany's vibes were what drew the beast, and in the end, she was mother enough to get her scaly beast-child out of there.

 

That said .... by now I think it's past time that Dany took some sort of dancing lessons, herself. I know she's trying to be regal and commanding and all, but you'd think a Dothraki queen might have some skills with a blade, having the opportunities to learn from the likes of Selmy, Jorah, and not-Daario. Same goes for Missandei. No more standing around like you're at a photo shoot, chicas.

 

I have little doubt that Hizdar was Harpy, he was pretty much their #1 apologist and PR dude. For secret conspiracies to stay secret, a leader may have to remain hidden from all but the very top level of lieutenants. Not bothered by his death, if he was killed.

 

 

What I do think is that Dany wins and rules as an absolute monarch.

 

I just don't see Westeros accepting an absolute monarch. For every Bolton and Lannister, there's a Stark, Martell & Tyrell who might be a little full of themselves, but are highly capable of peaceful, relatively benevolent, self-rule in their respective fiefs.

 

Dorne: I shake my head. Tristane = Aegon is the only thing that makes sense there.

 

Arya's test was simply one of obedience. Whoops! Still Arya.

 

 

Good thing Meryn Trant is now a pedophile, so we have even extra reasons to hate him. I don't usually subscribe to the moral panics that sweep the internet, but I'll be god-damned if these showrunners don't find a new way to slip some sexual squick into almost every episode.

 

Yup, it is seriously cheap writing. Just being on Arya's list is enough reason.. This does give viewers and extra reason, I guess, but it also invents a weakness for Arya to get close.

 

I think Jon is AA reborn, but he is basically the Frodo of this story: he saves the realm but doesn't rule it.

 

For now he doesn't rule it. If R + L = J, Snow may have a whole new take on what he should be doing with his life, once spring kicks in. He may face a choice where, if he doesn't accept the throne, he will be perceived as a long-term threat by whomever does.

Edited June 8, 2015 by FemmyV

[ulkis]

Well this season might be it for me.  I need a show to at least have some character I like on the screen otherwise it's just plot about people I don't give a shit about.  Stannis just completly lost me here and while I like Jon's story I don't care much for magical resurrection.

Yeah, agreed. I am sticking around for Jon but to see him find about his parentage and to hopefully reunite with the other Starks. I don't care about him killing all the zombies.

[Dev F]

I'm so upset about this episode. I just don't know how to feel right now. I think this is an often brilliant and beautiful show, but if there's no one to root for, what's the point? Just when I thought the show couldn't go any lower or show us anything more horrific than it already has, they go there with Shireen. I just -- I'm not okay about this, and not because a lovely and innocent character died. I'm not okay because I thought it was a stupid thing for Stannis to do, and that for Melisandre to cheerfully burn his one child and heir -- how does that help his kingship? His kingdom? It's asinine.

 

But according to what Melisandre has been preaching to Stannis this whole time, the stability of his kingdom and his bloodline don't matter. He needs to be the king because that's who will lead the forces of light in the coming battle against darkness and death. Once that battle is won, his reign can immediately fall apart for all she cares.

 

So another question I got is did the people in the Harpy masks just walk into the coliseum like that?  That seems a bit weird that they weren't at all noticeable until the plot called for it.

 

I assume they came in looking like everyone else, with their masks and weapons stashed under their robes, and then suited up while everyone else was watching the fights.

 

On the show, they made Tyene one of her daughters.  Obara referred to her own mother as a separate entity, so she's not Ellaria's daughter.  I don't remember if they ever defined Nym's parentage on the show.

 

I don't think it's been mentioned on screen, but her Asian features suggest that someone other than Ellaria is her mother.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Dev F

[Alapaki]

Until I read some of the recaps, I'd forgotten exactly how Meryn Trant ended up on Arya's list.  

 

Now, you can file this under "Wishful Thinking", but maybe we'll see Jaquen reveal himself to be Syrio and drop a "what do we say to the god of death?" on Arya.

 

I know it's wishful thinking.  But I also think we've earned it after watching Shireen this week.

[franopy]

But according to what Melisandre has been preaching to Stannis this whole time, the stability of his kingdom and his bloodline don't matter. He needs to be the king because that's who will lead the forces of light in the coming battle against darkness and death. Once that battle is won, his reign can immediately fall apart for all she cares.

 

That's one thing I forgot to mention: I couldn't stand Melisandre in the books until we got to see her POV, which humanised her so much simply by showing that most of the time she didn't really know wha the was doing. I still didn't like her very much after that, but she was much more sympathetic to me than the show version who is too smug and convinced of the infallibility of her mission for my taste. Because of this I'm really looking forward to the moment she realises that she's been betting on the wrong horse all along - I feel we as viewers have endured enough to deserve this.

[benteen]

If Stannis wanted to protect the Realm then he should have stayed at Castle Black for the winter and fought the White Walkers.

[Alapaki]

according to what Melisandre has been preaching to Stannis this whole time, the stability of his kingdom and his bloodline don't matter.

 

 

Maybe a little too inside baseball, but the whole "Dance of Dragons" civil war started over a dispute about whether a woman had the right to succeed to the Iron Throne.  Stannis strikes me as someone who'd come down on the "no" side of that argument anyway.

 

And, maybe relatedly, I think/hope Doran is playing a long-game with the Lannisters.  He's putting his son in King's Landing, married to the next-in-line to the Throne after Tommen.  He (maybe) has Ellaria working on Jaime to convince him "why can't he profess his love for Cersei and overturn the prevailing morality?".  How far of a leap from that is it to "why can't a woman (Myrcella) sit on the Iron Throne as Queen (with Trystane by her side, of course)?"

[Estelindis]

So another question I got is did the people in the Harpy masks just walk into the coliseum like that?  That seems a bit weird that they weren't at all noticeable until the plot called for it.

 

They can't have, surely.  For one thing, the panoramic views of the arena don't show many empty seats.  Whoever the Sons of the Harpy are, they're probably in-place from the start.  I reckon they bringing in their masks, concealed in their robes, with a dagger wrapped up in the cloth part, and put them on at a previously-agreed-upon moment.  Anything else strikes me as a bit daft.

 

While I felt very sorry for Hizdahr's situation with his father, Hizdahr isn't exactly a nice guy. He was heavily involved in the machinations of the fighting pits and actively condoned the slavery and corruption that brought them to life. Even tonight, I felt it was implied that he was off making sure the slave-fighters of the pit were ready when he was late to arrive. Even in his conversation with Tyrion, he's basically cheerfully condoning all sorts of slaughter, slavery and misery as long as it's not happening to him.

 

I didn't see Hizdahr trying to protect Dany (and can't bear to rewatch this episode), but if he was, that does change my perception of the guy a bit, however.

 

The thing is, Hizdahr initially brings up the fighting pits not on his own behalf but as part of the peace mission to Yunkai that Dany sent him on.  He negotiates a good settlement, with only one concession requested by Yunkai: the reopening of the pits.  He then argues that the pits are part of the cultural traditions that bind people together in this part of the world, and thus can help remake the foundations of peace following her conquest.  And, frankly, no matter how distasteful I find the idea of fighting to the death as entertainment (and I find it utterly barbaric), I find it very hard to disagree with his assessment when I look at the crowds of people in Daznak's Pit.  It looks like tens of thousands, dressed in various different ways, showing different social backgrounds, all totally immersed in the spectacle and happy to be there together.  I don't like, but that's how it seems.  And especially now that it's been agreed that only free people will fight (which was in the conditions he proposed from the start - he never asked for a return of slavery), it's not consistent for Dany to say that she's freed the people of Slavers' Bay but only to do the things that she approves of.  And Hizdahr pretty much makes that point to Dany: the combatants think that fighting in the pits is worth the risk of death, and they have the right to make that choice for themselves.  How can Dany claim to know their own minds better than they do?

 

As for him arriving late to see to last-minute details, that wouldn't surprise me at all, but I wouldn't see that as bad.  (Please just let me re-emphasise that I could never watch a spectacle like the fighting pits myself.)  He can't rely on Dany and her crew to see to the details.  She doesn't even know that she claps her hands to start.  Stuff needs doing, so I guess he goes and does it, hoping that a smoothly-run event will keep people in the city together.

 

Hizdahr doesn't so much try to protect Dany (he seems to have no combat skills whatsoever) as he tries to show her another exit of the arena.  Given that he's very familiar with the arena and probably had access to some fairly exclusive noble-only areas, he might know exits that the Sons of the Harpy wouldn't.  But he's literally trying to show her how to get out when he's grabbed and stabbed.  So yeah: the last thing he ever did was try to help the person who had his father crucified and nearly burned him alive.

 

I -- yeah. This one kind of broke me. I've never seriously considered quitting the show, but this one -- I just could not believe Stannis actually did it, burning his sweet, smart, wonderful little girl alive.

 

Shireen was that rare quality on Game of Thrones, a being of pure love and innocence.  That was tarnished somewhat by being forced to watch her uncle burn (and Mance too, do I misremember?), but she still has so much faith, love, and positivity that she's brimming over with it, casting light into the lives of people around her.  Burning anyone alive is horrible, but it's especially ghastly to do it to such a sweet, trusting little girl.  I cannot see Stannis coming back from this.  I know, in general, Game of Thrones isn't a show that punishes evil and rewards the good...  But it had better make an exception for this monstrosity, or I will be deeply disappointed.

 

Also... I'm starting to get somewhat weary of character deaths.  It's shocking the first dozen or so times, and very important in making sure that the sense of danger around the characters is real...  But I'm tired of it.  I've seen too many nice characters die and too many ruthless ones survive.  The Boltons, in particular, seem to have encountered no speed bumps in their rise to power.  I'm hoping that changes soon.  I don't even know if I want the sacrifice of Shireen to be what accomplishes it.  What's worse: that he sacrifice was in vain, or that it actually did what Stannis so mistakenly wanted?

[Fable]

I watched the episode last night, but I had taken some medication that made me a bit drowsy, so I was only half paying attention until that shit with Stannis/Shireen snapped me right out of my mental fog and not in a good way.   That had to be one of the most, if not the most, disturbing things I've seen on TV, and I could barely pay attention to the show after that.  Hell I'm still depressed!  I know the show has been telegraphing that this might happen, but I was hoping it would not turn out to be the case.   The circumstances surrounding this were so damn heart breaking, it shook me right to my core. 

I was planning to re-watch today to pick up on the things I missed while nodding off, but now I just don't know.

[DigitalCount]

I see Shireen as the opposite of Ramsay; the closest to an all-good character in the series. In a way she's about as unrealistic, a "too good for this sinful earth" character whose pure heart was incorruptible despite all the hardships she suffered. BUT WE NEEDED THIS CHARACTER. People like Ramsay are a dime a dozen in this world. Maybe they aren't quite as bad, but close. Meryn Trant the pedophile. Polliver and his boredom with torture. His pal Gregor. Roose Dracula, who raped Ramsay into existence and flays everybody. Tywin and where the heck do I start.

Taking that good, sweet little person and having her plead to help her father, who she loves as much as a child could love anyone, then having her beg for her life as she suffers the worst execution the show has--that's bad enough, but it's her father doing the burning. That was a gut punch so hard it hit my spine.

And they even had her echo his words from that lovely speech and hug him so tightly, like what on earth is this nonsense? It wasn't painful enough before?

[benteen]

Maybe a little too inside baseball, but the whole "Dance of Dragons" civil war started over a dispute about whether a woman had the right to succeed to the Iron Throne.  Stannis strikes me as someone who'd come down on the "no" side of that argument anyway.

 

And, maybe relatedly, I think/hope Doran is playing a long-game with the Lannisters.  He's putting his son in King's Landing, married to the next-in-line to the Throne after Tommen.  He (maybe) has Ellaria working on Jaime to convince him "why can't he profess his love for Cersei and overturn the prevailing morality?".  How far of a leap from that is it to "why can't a woman (Myrcella) sit on the Iron Throne as Queen (with Trystane by her side, of course)?"

 

I hope that's the case too with Doran.  But considering the show cut out Catelyn eliciting an oath out of Jaime, I wouldn't be surprised if Doran's long-game is revealed through the dialogue of others.  I hope we get to see Alexander Siddig again on this show because he was sadly wasted this season.

 

About the deaths, I agree that the show needs to be giving up some righteous justices death (ie the Boltons).  I'm very curious to see how the Unsullied will react to what happens to Jon next episode.

 

Speaking of which, when they showed Olly death glaring Jon again at the beginning of this episode, I was hoping Jon would take him to the top of the Wall and throw him off.

[GreyBunny]

Jon should have taken Ollie to Hardhome so the kid could have seen what's what.

[Knuckles]

I am done with Olly as well, and his constant glaring at Jon, though KH did a nice, subtle job showing his hope that Olly had come round and then his clear disappointment that the kid hadn't. This is the downside of hero worship...revulsion at the perceived flaws in your former idol.

Hey Wun Wun...if you have a moment, step on that little pisspot Olly...just remember to say, "oops, my bad".

[mac123x]

I'd also like to thank the show for giving me a literal nightmare last night.  Surprisingly, it wasn't Shireen's off-screen screams that did it (I'd like to see an interview with the actress where she talks about how they prepped for that), but the god damn Harpy masks.  Even more creepy Uncanny Valley than last week's zombies.  [shudder]

[Knuckles]

And on another note, since it is now possible that Stannis wins at Winterfell, and the Boltons fall, I am hoping that Pod strikes the blow that kills Stannis. Brienne would continue to be zeroing out on revenge for Renly and the Starks, and Pod has taken enough abuse...let him have his moment.

[Alapaki]

Speaking of which, when they showed Olly death glaring Jon again at the beginning of this episode, I was hoping Jon would take him to the top of the Wall and throw him off.

 

 

I'll still be surprised if D&D leave us with a "is Jon dead or alive?" cliff-hanger in Ep10.  I think Olly takes a run at Jon, but someone stops him (Davos maybe?).  

[MadMouse]

Maybe a little too inside baseball, but the whole "Dance of Dragons" civil war started over a dispute about whether a woman had the right to succeed to the Iron Throne.  Stannis strikes me as someone who'd come down on the "no" side of that argument anyway.

 

And, maybe relatedly, I think/hope Doran is playing a long-game with the Lannisters.  He's putting his son in King's Landing, married to the next-in-line to the Throne after Tommen.  He (maybe) has Ellaria working on Jaime to convince him "why can't he profess his love for Cersei and overturn the prevailing morality?".  How far of a leap from that is it to "why can't a woman (Myrcella) sit on the Iron Throne as Queen (with Trystane by her side, of course)?"

 

Stannis in the book calls Rhaenyra a usurper that deserved to die. Which is funny since he's her decedent, the Targ line went through her not the "rightful" king. And to be nerdy as hell the Dance wasn't just about her being a woman but her children's legitimacy and the fear of Daemon her husband ruling. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by MadMouse

[Andromeda]

My favorite thing about the Sons of the Harpy attack was the stadium tiers in the background. People were alternately running clockwise and counter-clockwise on different tiers.  Together it made a nice little pattern, but I can't say it remotely looked like fleeing or fighting.

That's a pet peeve for me for most all movies and TV shows that have a crowd fleeing in terror. If you watch, they are always crossing each other's paths, no matter which direction the danger is coming from. It's crazy. In real life, people would scatter like rats or birds away from the danger. We're really not THAT stupid.

But, like fake blood and wounds that are never properly washed, but super carefully dabbed at with no result (another pet peeve of mine), we just have to live with it, I guess.

What was the point of the sand snakes playing handsies? Did we need to waste five minutes on that? (Well, it felt like five minutes!).

Edited June 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[benteen]

I'd also like to thank the show for giving me a literal nightmare last night.  Surprisingly, it wasn't Shireen's off-screen screams that did it (I'd like to see an interview with the actress where she talks about how they prepped for that), but the god damn Harpy masks.  Even more creepy Uncanny Valley than last week's zombies.  [shudder]

 

When I saw all those masked Harpys in the crowd, my first thought was "And THAT'S why we have security checkpoints at stadiums!"

 

Shallow note but Nathalie Emmanuel looked REALLY good in that shade of blue.

[MrWhyt]

Now, you can file this under "Wishful Thinking", but maybe we'll see Jaquen reveal himself to be Syrio and drop a "what do we say to the god of death?" on Arya.

I hope not. Some viewers/readers put way too much importance on (what are to me at least) minor characters, Benjen Stark for example (now watch me get proven wrong).

[SFoster21]

When I saw all those masked Harpys in the crowd, my first thought was "And THAT'S why we have security checkpoints at stadiums!"

Shallow note but Nathalie Emmanuel looked REALLY good in that shade of blue.

You'd think she could get some better clothes than two swathes of fabric around her shoulders now that she's no longer a slave.

[Constantinople]

I'd also like to thank the show for giving me a literal nightmare last night.  Surprisingly, it wasn't Shireen's off-screen screams that did it (I'd like to see an interview with the actress where she talks about how they prepped for that), but the god damn Harpy masks.  Even more creepy Uncanny Valley than last week's zombies.  [shudder]

 

Be prepared to see a lot more of those masks around Halloween.

[cambridgeguy]

 

So to me that was Stannis' way of saying I don't want you here because something terrible is going to happen and you'd either die trying to stop it or be burdened by feeling guilty for having been here without saving her life.

Stannis released Davos from his jail cell when he wanted to be convinced NOT to execute Gendry.  He sent him away because he knew that Davos would be able to convince him not to go through with it or manage to get Shireen to safety.

 

 

If Stannis wanted to protect the Realm then he should have stayed at Castle Black for the winter and fought the White Walkers.

His army is mostly a bunch of sell swords and they'd probably bolt as winter worsened - you can't spend your money if you turn into an icicle.  Stannis had to march, and since his lookouts were all taking a nap he got stuck.  Of course he lost his siege weapons so I'm not sure how he expects to break Winterfell's defenses unless a bolt of lightning strikes down the Boltons.

[mac123x]

Be prepared to see a lot more of those masks around Halloween.

I won't lie, I want one.

[anyanka323]

At this stage, the only way the entire Dorne story doesn't feel like a pointless waste of time is if Doran is playing the long game and hedging his bets.  He may still be a secret supporter of Dany, but if he say, happened to get news about the clusterfuck that Cersei's unleashed in Kings Landing with both queens locked up and the ineffectual young king hiding in his room, it doesn't hurt to have his heir married to the girl who is still somewhat considered a legitimate claimant to the throne and parked in the capital with power of his own.  Maybe this is supposed to be their version of the queenmaker plot?

 

I read those scenes, as confusingly written as they were, as Doran and then Ellaria taking Jaime's measure too.  He's really largely an unknown politically beyond knowing he's the kingslayer and a Lannister.  He was honest about what they were doing there and he spoke up for Bronn the commoner.  At least if I tell myself this I can pretend that the entire season hasn't been completely squandered for one of my favorite book characters.

Maybe this is the show's take on the queenmaker plot.  There's going to be a power vaccuum in King's Landing if the Faith/Sparrows get overturned.  Tommen has proven himself to be a weak king.  Cersei will have lost what credibility she had as Queen Mother and Regent for unleashing a group of religious fundamentalists upon the capital.  More than likely, she'll be removed from any real power by a combination of Kevan Lannister and the Dorne group. Jaime will be involved once he sees how much of a mess she has made and probably try to help reestablish some form of order. 

[GreyBunny]

Stannis in the book calls Rhaenyra a usurper that deserved to die. Which is funny since he's her decedent, the Targ line went through her not the "rightful" king. And to be nerdy as hell the Dance wasn't just about her being a woman but her children's legitimacy and the fear of Daemon her husband ruling. 

Also in the book Stannis instructs his men that if he dies they are to keep fighting and put Shireen on the Iron Throne (though now that possibility has gone up on smoke).  He doesn't have a problem with a woman on the throne as long as he thinks she's legitimate. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by GreyBunny

[BlackberryJam]

Well, I must have a cold dead heart because Shireen was no where near as moving as the woman being stabbed in the gut repeatedly by a Harpy. And that was no where near as disturbing as watching Hannibal that makes dead bodies works of beautiful art.

I also don't think Stannis is the worst thing evah! Honestly, this is who he has always been, just taking a step further along the same path. I supposed because so many of us are now Unsullied, this seems so horrible, but well, Ned's beheading was pretty shocking, the Red Wedding, etc etc. This was objectively no more horrible than those things, we were just unprepared.

(Not gonna lie. Saw the leaks and was totally prepared, but not even shocked because this has been foreshadowed pretty hard. For shock value, Red Wedding totally topped it.)

As to the battle of Winterfell, seems to me Stannis loses, but survives. That would be why in the books he contacts Mel to sacrifice Shireen, who he does not show affection for in the books.

As to people who are done with the show, I fully understand that sometimes, you just can't take it. At the same time, it can't be much of a surprise considering the horrific acts in the pilot. But yeah, for some, enough is enough.

I kind of enjoyed Hizzie and Daario's measuring contest only to have Jorah whip his out and beat them both.

Totally skeeved by Meryn and wanted to shove a sock in Mace's cakehole.

I can almost see what they are trying to do with Dorne, but I think it's really been shortchanged by the pacing and lack of time. I can see why Doran would want Trystane near the Throne, so he can kill Tommen, crown Myrcella and become King himself. It's a risky play, but so many things are risky.

[magdalene]

What bothers me too that there are some Stannis apologists who think Stannis can be redeemed from this. Their reasoning: they are comparing him to Jaime and what he did to Bran. 

[dr pepper]

I had hoped the dragons were more impervious to weapons such as spears.  I did love Dany flying away.  I almost wish I could right now.

 

If Drogon had been the size he was described as in the books, those spears wouldn't even tickle him.

[dr pepper]

I'm trying to remember which wrist Jorah's grayscale was on, and which one he took Dany's hand with.  I *think* they were different hands, and isn't it the actual grayscale itself you have to touch to catch it?  

 

 

My theory: grayscale is not contagious iuntil it reaches its final stage. Then it develops spores and begins flaking.

[Andromeda]

A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) is essentially a condemnation of much of politics AND religion and commentary on the massive gray area that lies between what’s right and wrong what’s a good decision and what’s not.

Notes:

- Stannis burning daughter (hasn’t happened yet in the books, but GRRM all but told D&D it would). Makes Stannis an asshole. Doesn’t make Stannis ANY different from the tons of real people in history who are willing to commit suicide, murder or sacrifice their own for a religious cause. Yes, Stannis is attempting to attain the throne, but beyond all of that, he believes himself to be Azor Ahai prophesied to save the world from the evil of the White Walkers. In his mind as a believer, what’s one child’s sacrifice when it means it’ll enable to him to save the entire world? To him, it’s just a test of his faith to the Lord of Light… ahem, JUST like Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac in the Bible.

I thought of Abraham, too. An equally despicable thing for a father to do, whoever (or whatever) supposedly told him to. I'm anti-blood sacrifice of any kind, including animals and sons of dieties and humans, related or not. At least the Seven religion doesn't seem to do that -- or maybe they do sacrifice animals and I forgot. Not that I like them, either. The weirwood religion seems the most enlightened, and it's the oldest.

God, poor Shireen. Stannis, you deserve to die a very painful death and I want Davos to gut you. Not Ramsay; Davos. The honour of killing you must fall on someone who really loved Shireen. I want you to look at his eyes and understand you've failed as a king, as a person and as a father.

Exactly. I want Sansa to kill Ramsey, and Davos and/or Brienne to kill Stannis, and Davos to kill Melisandre. And because I want it and it would be soooo satifying, George probably won't give it to us. Edited June 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[Funzlerks]

What was the point of the sand snakes playing handsies? Did we need to waste five minutes on that? (Well, it felt like five minutes!).

When the show departs completely from characters and scenes in ASOIAF it is like they have no clue what to do. They had two adult women play attack patty cake. It was supposed to tell us something about the characters. They could have written dialogue for them. Then there is Jaime and Myrcella's amazing dialogue about her dress and that amazingly well-timed and executed scene with Bronn being hit by the menacing, silent black guy.

[dr pepper]

Hizdar was late to the show and said something like "I was making sure everything was prepared."  When the Sons of the Harpy attacked, I was sure that was what he was preparing... then he got stabbed.  Guess not.  In the books, I'm pretty sure the Green Grace is the leader of the Sons, but she's not on the show so I figured it'd be the only named Meereeneze person.  I guess they don't have a leader.

 

WE are AnonyMous

U are  a Trespasser

We will D3STR0Y U!

[nksarmi]

What bothers me too that there are some Stannis apologists who think Stannis can be redeemed from this. Their reasoning: they are comparing him to Jaime and what he did to Bran. 

First, my fiancé says Jamie can't be redeemed for him - once you hurt a child to him, it's done.  And I don't know if GRRM intends to "redeem" Jamie - I just believe Jamie will die doing the "right" thing.  But killing your own child?  Stannis is dead to me - he can't come back from this.  And you know what, as bad as I feel for Theon/Reek - I don't know if the same thing was done to Stannis if I would feel bad for him.

 

Because Theon has a conflicted story at least - he was a hostage raised as part of the family.  He was Robb's best friend and wanted to be the hero.  But his father rejected him and shamed him and made it clear that he was a man who belonged to neither the Iron Born nor the Starks.  His identify confusion and floundering allow me to feel sympathy for him. 

 

But Stannis is a grown ass man who is not torn between trying to honor two worlds.  He should be old enough to know his own mind and know right from wrong.  What he did was wrong on every level and that is why I want him to fail in this upcoming battle.  I don't want him to have an ounce of justification in his mind when his daughter's screams haunt him at night.  And if Ramsey did to him what he did to Theon - I would not feel an ounce of sympathy toward him.  That might make me a horrible person, but so be it.

[benteen]

I'm not defending Jaime's crippling and attempted murder of Bran or Theon's murder of the two miller boys.   But TV Stannis chose to have his own daughter killed in the most painful way possible.  A daughter who loved and trusted him.  A daughter he didn't even have the courage to tell her what he was going to do to her.  That makes TV Stannis worse and more unredeemable than Jaime and Theon.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[Bill1978]

I've decided that Shireen's response to Stannis' question about which side she would pick in the Dance is reflective of how many viewers are feeling now about the Battle of Winterfell.

[The Mormegil]

Strange that the Sons of the Harpy killed a lot of Masters gathered together in the Arena.

 

Now who came up with that plan again?

 

On the day of the great games, gather all the Great Masters and Wise Masters and Worthy Masters you can find and slaughter them all.

 

 

Oh yeah the same person who somehow knew exactly where the first Son of the Harpy they captured was hiding out.

[Mya Stone]

I'm just going to put this here...
 

[nksarmi]

Strange that the Sons of the Harpy killed a lot of Masters gathered together in the Arena.

 

Now who came up with that plan again?

 

 

Oh yeah the same person who somehow knew exactly where the first Son of the Harpy they captured was hiding out.

What an excellent theory.  I was wondering why in the world so many maesters were being killed.  Perhaps that last attack wasn't the real Harpies at all.

[The Mormegil]

What an excellent theory.  I was wondering why in the world so many maesters were being killed.  Perhaps that last attack wasn't the real Harpies at all.

 

I was actually thinking that the SoH were always Daario's. Part of a powerplay he started when they took over Meereen.

 

People have been saying that it's odd that the SoH can take on the Unsullied so easily so it would make sense if they (or most of them) were trained mercenaries.

[Avaleigh]

My theory: grayscale is not contagious iuntil it reaches its final stage. Then it develops spores and begins flaking.

Right now my thoughts are that Daario has already been infected but that Dany and Tyrion are safe because of you know what. 

[Avaleigh]

I think one of the worst things about Dany's flight was the way that her hair barely moved. When I think about how my hair flies when the windows are down in a car it was too ridiculous the way it basically stayed in place. 

 

I really love the speculation that we're in for a big reveal from Doran regarding Trystane. 

[J----av]

 

Yup, it is seriously cheap writing. Just being on Arya's list is enough reason.. This does give viewers and extra reason, I guess, but it also invents a weakness for Arya to get close.

 

 

 I don't see what the big deal is. Its basically the shows version of the "Mercey" chapter in WOW, and in the "Mercey" chapter Raff was a pedophile. In the show its now Meryn Trant

[Philbert]

 

What bothers me too that there are some Stannis apologists who think Stannis can be redeemed from this. Their reasoning: they are comparing him to Jaime and what he did to Bran.

 

 

Depends on what you mean by 'redeemed.' I'm certainly not as furious with him as I was last night. I see the story being told. Certainly, I would like to see him actually do some real good before he dies (after last night he's a dead man walking anyway-if you don't think that decision didn't cost him his soul, you're not paying attention) but do I think he's going to sit on the Iron Throne and rule long and wisely? No, that ship sailed some time ago. If that makes me an 'apologist' I'll wear the label.

[benteen]

I was actually thinking that the SoH were always Daario's. Part of a powerplay he started when they took over Meereen.

 

People have been saying that it's odd that the SoH can take on the Unsullied so easily so it would make sense if they (or most of them) were trained mercenaries.

 

That could certainly work for the show.

[DigitalCount]

I won't lie, I want one.

Speaking of great GoT collectibles, those war strategy pieces. If they aren't a thing that can be bought in the real world, people have apparently stopped caring about making money.

[blixie]

 

The Boltons, in particular, seem to have encountered no speed bumps in their rise to power.

 

Well in the books it's implicit that the Bolton's power base is kind of a joke. The North knows Jeyne isn't Arya, the North knows the Boltons and Freys orchestrated the Red Wedding. Everyone in the North, except the Freys, are conspiring against them, and the Lannisters are no longer the powerful allies they once were.

 

Roose sort of makes that point to Ramsay on the show, that they can not count on the Lannisters, have no REAL friends, but again I feel the loss of Manderlay in this sense, the Boltons in the book haven't hit speed bumps, but there is a sense that everything they hold is literally ashes/temporary at best (the Pink Letter not withstanding). The tide is turning in the books, unfortunately that has been lost on the show this year.