The Kelly File: Duggar Interview 2015.06.03

[starfire]

Jessa saying that Josh's molestation was "mild" really worries me. Sadly, a lot of girls look up to the Duggar daughters. If they ever have the misfortune of being molested, they might not tell anyone due to the minimization by the Duggar girls that it's really no big deal. While I feel bad for Jessa and Jill for being molested by Josh, I am mad that they aren't thinking about their influence. I also think Jill and Jessa are very onboard with keeping the gravy train rolling and may say things just for the sake of trying to keep the show going or a spinoff. 

[Potato511]

I don't give three hoots who she is or what she does, the very last damn thing a person with hyper-vigilance needs is a fucking alarm sounding while they are sleeping...  That's just elementary.

I don't think I would want to be in the same house as them, period. But it could be an alarm that sounds in the parent or guardian's room. The thing is, perps DO come back into someone's home. There is no lock them up and throw away the key. They don't just disappear.

[NextIteration]

I don't think I would want to be in the same house as them, period. But it could be an alarm that sounds in the parent or guardian's room. The thing is, perps DO come back into someone's home. There is no lock them up and throw away the key. They don't just disappear.

 

Fine, let the alarm blast in the parents ear, not the survivors.  I cannot express how fucking horrible that would be for children that are already afraid to go to sleep due to fear from a repeat performance.

[cheatincheetos]

Let's be serious now. The only training was a trained uterus popping out babies.

Trained, or strained.

[keepitsimple]

Ok, let's turn this on it's head and look at it, upside down.  What if another tragedy besides what the girls went through and are still going through, was that Josh was improperly taught, insufficiently parented, and a pretty messed up young man in many ways.  What he turned to was twisted and abhorent and sad.  So what good can come of this taking center stage in mass media and social media?  That this crisis goes on in families across the country.  We are being spurred, I think, to be vigilent and truth seeking for victims and empowering of victims that have thus far been silent.  So it is a good topic because it is real and rampant.  It is, well, reality.

 

I believe that there has been a lot hate mongering, demeaning, and shaming of the family.  In fact the attacks have been vicious and unrelenting all over the internet and cable tv.  Vultures preying with glee on the flesh of real people when they are down and,  I believe, crying out. The parents have been portrayed as money-grubbing uneducated imbecils who have sold there souls and their family to become rich and famous.  I believe this came about because they "preached" anti-gay and anti-trans views.  This was such a misguided choice on their part, IMO.  It is a casting of the first stone which brought a hail of stones aimed towards them.  Preaching morality rarely goes well except maybe in the pupit, to the choir.

 

I also hear jealousy about their tv show and the money it may generate.  I hear hate and meanness about Michelle's voice and that Jim Bob sounded rehearsed for the interview.  Of course he was rehearsed!  They practiced and had consultants and worked hard to make this ok, even hopelessly to make it go away.  Their famliy is shattered.  They have been humiliated.  I wonder when enough will be enough.

 

I do understand why their holier-than-thou preaching rubbed people raw.  And I do think the concern for the victims of molestation is quite real.  But somehow the final "gotcha" feels like the final bloody thrusts at a bullfight.

 

 

 

[Caramellow]

I thought this blog entry on Jim Bob & Michelle`s body language (showing signs of deception, ignorance and blaming others) was spot on...

 

https://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/duggars-show-deception-ignorance-and-blaming-others-through-body-language-on-fox-interview-as-they-leak-out-their-intention-to-sue-for-releasing-child-molesting-sons-records/

[NextIteration]

So what good can come of this taking center stage in mass media and social media?  That this crisis goes on in families across the country.  We are being spurred, I think, to be vigilent and truth seeking for victims and empowering of victims that have thus far been silent.  So it is a good topic because it is real and rampant.  It is, well, reality.

 

I said something similar weeks ago at this point, I have never seen from one news story so many survivors come forward.  I think it's a great thing, and it's past time that the white male patriarchy and rape culture end.  All that said, this to shall pass sadly and we'll be back to crap again, and that actually makes me sad.

[xls]

The Duggar kids have not been allowed any privacy or dignity for over 10 years. The stupid show is the only reason people were able to figure out which sisters were victims-because the public knows them so well. The report HAD to come out otherwise how would future potential (or mothers of) victims know to steer clear of Josh?

[Magoo]

Whenever I see the clip of Jill and Jessa ("How can they do this to us, we're the victims"), I don't know what it is, but the way Jill says "victims" sounds like rocks rolling around in her mouth because I'm sure this is the first time in her entire life anyone has dropped this label on her (to her face).  It's as if the word is so new to her in this context she doesn't know how to use it comfortably and she's still testing it out.  "Jill, you're the victim" (of what, Josh? the liberal media? regardless...).  "I'm...I'm the victim?"  "Yes, you're the victim."  "I'm the victim.  I AM THE VICTIM."

[humbleopinion]

The idea of Josh preying upon his little sisters, creeping around, waiting for an opportunity to molest them is disgusting.

 

Doubtful of JB+M's account that he tearfully came to his parents on his own volition-he was caught and tattled on.

[Potato511]

I said something similar weeks ago at this point, I have never seen from one news story so many survivors come forward.  I think it's a great thing, and it's past time that the white male patriarchy and rape culture end.  All that said, this to shall pass sadly and we'll be back to crap again, and that actually makes me sad.

I'm with you! It ain't just the Christian Patriarchy Movement, though it may feel safer to "other" the problem... Death to the patriarchy!

[Mrs. P.]

The question I wish someone would ask Jim Bob and Michelle is this: 'Why did you continue to have baby after baby when you knew how dysfunctional your family was?".

They couldn't successfully parent the 13 kids they already had - they admitted to feeling like failures as parents. How could they possibly think they could parent 19?

[bluebonnet]

I think it's really terrible for Jill and Jessa that their segment comes on the heels of Michelle and Jim Bob's horrible interview.  For most people, the general understanding is that victims are allowed to feel the way they want to feel.  In this case, it's really difficult to to accept what Jill and Jessa say in defense of Josh after listening to their parents excuse and downplay his behavior, deflect blame, and then discuss punishing the girls for what their brother did.  The general audience is left seeing that there are few other ways that the girls could react to this.  

 

The really scary thing is that the Duggars have spent nearly a decade in front of cameras and they still screwed this up so badly.  They've prepped and trained for interviews, they've worked with agents and PR teams, they've also reportedly hired a crisis PR rep to help through this scandal.  Without a doubt, they prepped and rehearsed for this interview and were almost certainly given a list of questions before the interview.  (This isn't a criticism, this is how these things go and everyone preps for interviews).  But despite all these years of being in front of cameras and conducting interviews and most certainly practicing, they still managed to look like horrible people.  They were hand fed a narrative that would work for them.  Every single question Kelly asked gave them an opportunity to come out heroes, she even tried multiple times to get them to speak of their daughters (where they could have easily said, "you know, we don't have their permission to speak for them about it" and they would have looked like darlings!).  So the scary thing is that if all that prep and practice resulted in this, it must have been so much worse behind closed doors.  

[galax-arena]

So what good can come of this taking center stage in mass media and social media?  That this crisis goes on in families across the country.  We are being spurred, I think, to be vigilent and truth seeking for victims and empowering of victims that have thus far been silent.  So it is a good topic because it is real and rampant.  It is, well, reality.

Except the Duggars are using this center stage platform to minimize the abuse and harm done. "It was just over the clothes, really! Only for a few seconds! And the girls were mostly asleep!" And that is such a socially irresponsible thing to promote. If the Duggar girls themselves feel like no lasting harm was done due to how "mild" the abuse was, more power to them as individuals - and I mean that, because obviously not having lasting harm is preferable - but there is a difference between saying that it's something that you've personally moved on from, and that you still love your parents and brother, and anybody who doesn't like it can go choke on a fig leaf, and completely minimizing/handwaving the abuse because hey, the girls were asleep and it was over the clothes, which sends the message that it ain't no big thing in general, and that's just a messed up thing to say. Just because a victim isn't aware of what's going on at the time doesn't mean that it can't leave scars. 

I believe that there has been a lot hate mongering, demeaning, and shaming of the family.

As you sow, so shall you reap. 

 

Of course I wish that the downfall of the Duggars had come as a result of their bigotry and not at the expense of sexual abuse victims - Pyrrhic victory, anyone? - but I can't be too bothered to feel sympathy for the hate the family is getting. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by galax-arena

[Wellfleet]

I suspect that both Jill and Jessa are absolutely crazed with desperation and fury at the prospect of potentially losing their new show -- or the recentered, way more Jill- and Jessa-centric (complete with their own paychecks) show, though. The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that it was completely set up already and was the force behind Jill and Derick's sudden decision to take off for Nepal and possibly for some plan of Ben's to really go after the ministry, following his played-up graduation (with the Duggars, not the Seewalds, in the front row watching -- Why was that, unless it was being filmed for the next series?)  And that could motivate them, too.

 

I think it's possible that one or both of the girls first began ranting about that, wishing she could do something, then said something about "I wish I could tell those people blah blah! I'd do an interview all right!" And, once that was said, JB's and M' s and their PR guy's and lawyer's ears perked up. And then they quietly helped foster the notion. The girls would see that as its having been their idea.

 

I do think it's completely possible both girls are furious about potentially-losing their potential TLC incomes. Not sure about volunteering to do this interview, but then again I don't imagine they put up much resistance, if any, when Momma and Daddy started prodding them to defend Josh and fight to keep the show. I do believe the girls see "outsiders" - as a whole - as being "against them."

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

If I was one of the girls, this is how I'd feel:

- I forgave Josh, didn't make a big deal of it, & helped keep the family secret from many

- I traveled all over seeing world outside of the Duggar bubble and yet I still stayed sweet & didn't push to live more like the "worldly" people I've been exposed too

- I've kept sweet

- I've kept my mouth shut/behaved well/didn't embarrass my family on TV, interviews, etc.

- I suffered through ridiculous ATI conferences, Journey to the Heart, etc.

- I've worn skirts/flip flops to do things that really require shorts/sneakers

- I've been super hot in this Arkansas heat because I had to wear skirts and sleeves

- I've always been on the look out for "Nike" alerts for my brothers

- I put up with these ridiculous courting rules

- I let my dad take the lead in the choosing of my husband

- I didn't even kiss my husband until our wedding day

- I got pregnant right after/soon after the wedding; I'm toeing the family line about "blessings"

- I've educated, fed, changed, cleaned for, cooked for, and basically raises my younger siblings

- I'VE EARNED MY OWN SHOW for all that I've put up with/done for my family!

My reaction would be "Oh, hell no! After all I've done for this family, I am getting my OWN show. I'll do whatever I have to do or say to make it happen. I didn't suffer through all of this for nothing." (I know they wouldn't say hell.)

I think they are doing whatever they think they can do to save their own shows. Unfortunately, due to how they were raised, they think the only way to save their shows/futures is to double down on protecting their parents and Josh.

I see this reaction especially in Jessa's anger. Those girls probably thought they were finally going to be rewarded for all of the crap they've gone through, secrets they've kept, and how they've kept sweet through it all. And now it's going to fall apart. They can't bring themselves to vocalize or admit to blaming Josh and their parents yet - and that's also probably complicated by the fact that they DO love their parents and brother, so it's difficult to navigate. So they are left blaming the media and those who "leaked" the report.

Edited June 6, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[wanderwoman]

My issue with Jill's statement, and I'm trying very hard to be fair here, us this; if she and Jessa never considered Josh's actions to be sexual or invasive, then they're not victims.

If you want to pretend Josh's inappropriate actions were no big deal and you didn't remember them or feel like he was molesting you, then whether or not the issue came out would be sort of unimportant. I'm not saying it is was. I'm saying it can't be both. If Jessa thinks what Josh did was harmless and has been overblown, then why does it need secrecy?

And, thus the point: in large part, the molestation is in the action of the predator, not the understanding of the victim. If an infant, who will never remember being sexually abused is hurt, then it's still a crime! The infants ability to understand is secondary to the child's right to protection! Similarly, it doesn't matter if the victims were sleeping, they were violated. If there was nothing criminal, then you say, "some of the kids struggled with personal space issues and we've tried to teach them to respect their bodies". You don't send your kid to "hard labor" if it was a hug or simple touch. If it was bad enough to send him away, then it was bad enough to report immediately and you can't have the victim blow it off.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I am wondering if perhaps the downplaying of what Josh did to being treated like no big deal, "it was over the clothes," "they were asleep," "they didn't even know/understand what happened," "it's not like it was rape" etc is not just to minimize what he did to protect Josh and his parents but also - in a weird way within their culture - to protect the girls.

Since we know that in Gothardism, women are responsible for men's sexual impulses and actions, perhaps JB and Michelle are also trying to protect the girls from being seen as inticing Josh. If they were asleep in their own all-girls room, there's no way they could have been actively asking for it. If it was over the clothes, at least they were still wearing clothes that one might think didn't allow easy access to their chests. If they didn't understand what happened, that's because they didn't even know then that men/boys had these thoughts and so they couldn't have been asking for it. (I'm not saying they would extend this reasoning to other victims, but I think they are trying to reassure the Fundy world as much as possible that the girls were not asking for it in order to protect the girls' and their own reputations within that group of people, as well as to assure future marriages would be possible.) By acting like it wasn't a big deal, it not only helps to absolve Josh and his parents, but within Gothardism it helps to absolve the girls of doing anything that would have them asking to be assaulted.

For the Duggars, it was important for them to say "it's not like it was rape" not only to downplay what Josh did and their non-reactions but also to publicly proclaim and assure other Fundies (or anyone else obsessed with Purity Culture) that the girls' hymens were still intact. (Which is disgusting.)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that they are #1 covering their & Josh's butts but I think within their strange little culture, their lack of concern for the girls/acting like it's no big deal is also an effort to keep the girls' reputations' pure (which is disgusting). I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I am not excusing them in anyway but I think within their culture, the downplaying of the molestation was in a strange way also a way to protect the girls' reputations and futures. (However, outside of Purity Culture, ain't nobody buying what they're trying to sell.) I don't think I'm articulating it correctly, so I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense without offending anyone. The Duggar parents and Josh are still 110% in the wrong.

Edited June 6, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Twopper]

 

I do think it's completely possible both girls are furious about potentially-losing their potential TLC incomes. Not sure about volunteering to do this interview, but then again I don't imagine they put up much resistance, if any, when Momma and Daddy started prodding them to defend Josh and fight to keep the show. I do believe the girls see "outsiders" - as a whole - as being "against them."

 

 

A major problem for Jill and Jessa is that, despite being married, they still depend on Daddy Duggar. But the people in tv land who don't watch them will probably think these are married women who are independent thinkers instead of kool-aid drinkers.  JimBob thinks if he can get the married women to say it was really no big deal ( they didn't know, don't remember) that it won't be a big deal for the viewers and voila' the show will return.  I think he is really wrong. I remember in an early episode JimBob talking about the house being surrounded by 20 acres of land so that, If they wanted, all the children could have houses on the land.  I got creeped out at the time that as it sounded as though he really did want to keep them near.  Now I might prefer to have my son and daughter live nearer to us (especially as we age) but I have so enjoyed seeing their spreading their wings so to speak and going off to faraway places  which I can visit.  (That also reminds me how I think none of them seemed to appreciated the foreign travel that being on the show provided, with the possible exception of the trips to Israel and Nepal).  But again, like the sexually provacative behaviour of Ma and Pa, this continued dependence on Daddy for housing and, in Ben's case, for a jobs is not known to John Q Public who is watching.  I am sure their comments were rehearsed, if not memorized. And having been raised that way also reflect their beliefs at this time.  Jessa's line about puberty sounds like it came directly from some book.

[NikSac]

I would hope that when they splice together some scenes from the show that they would at least show one instance of the parents exhibiting their inappropriate flaunting of their sexual selves--for instance, that scene at the putt-putt course on the "double-date" with Jill and Derrick and Jessa and Ben.  That was awful, but showing it again would certainly give the people who don't watch the show an idea of why so many of us don't find the Duggars all that wholesome.

 

Oh please no. I don't ever, ever want to see that again. (but I do see your point)

[Wellfleet]

My issue with Jill's statement, and I'm trying very hard to be fair here, us this; if she and Jessa never considered Josh's actions to be sexual or invasive, then they're not victims.

If you want to pretend Josh's inappropriate actions were no big deal and you didn't remember them or feel like he was molesting you, then whether or not the issue came out would be sort of unimportant. I'm not saying it is was. I'm saying it can't be both. If Jessa thinks what Josh did was harmless and has been overblown, then why does it need secrecy?

And, thus the point: in large part, the molestation is in the action of the predator, not the understanding of the victim. If an infant, who will never remember being sexually abused is hurt, then it's still a crime! The infants ability to understand is secondary to the child's right to protection! Similarly, it doesn't matter if the victims were sleeping, they were violated. If there was nothing criminal, then you say, "some of the kids struggled with personal space issues and we've tried to teach them to respect their bodies". You don't send your kid to "hard labor" if it was a hug or simple touch. If it was bad enough to send him away, then it was bad enough to report immediately and you can't have the victim blow it off.

 

Excellent points all. IMO, Boob and Me-chelle are incapable of wrapping their minds around these concepts, and it's necessary for them to understand this in order to move on and get the kind of professional help the entire family needs. But I don't think that even someone they trusted and respected to get this across to them. 

[galax-arena]

MyPeopleAreNordic, I see what you're saying and that interpretation makes sense. If that's what they're saying, it plays so easily into rape culture. "Well, it's not like she was wearing short shorts or walking around alone at night, y'know? They weren't defrauding anyone!" 

Edited June 6, 2015 by galax-arena

[Wellfleet]

My issue with Jill's statement, and I'm trying very hard to be fair here, us this; if she and Jessa never considered Josh's actions to be sexual or invasive, then they're not victims.

If you want to pretend Josh's inappropriate actions were no big deal and you didn't remember them or feel like he was molesting you, then whether or not the issue came out would be sort of unimportant. I'm not saying it is was. I'm saying it can't be both. If Jessa thinks what Josh did was harmless and has been overblown, then why does it need secrecy?

And, thus the point: in large part, the molestation is in the action of the predator, not the understanding of the victim. If an infant, who will never remember being sexually abused is hurt, then it's still a crime! The infants ability to understand is secondary to the child's right to protection! Similarly, it doesn't matter if the victims were sleeping, they were violated. If there was nothing criminal, then you say, "some of the kids struggled with personal space issues and we've tried to teach them to respect their bodies". You don't send your kid to "hard labor" if it was a hug or simple touch. If it was bad enough to send him away, then it was bad enough to report immediately and you can't have the victim blow it off.

 

Excellent points all. IMO, Boob and Me-chelle are incapable of wrapping their minds around these concepts, and it's necessary for them to understand this in order to move on and get the kind of professional help the entire family needs. But I don't think that even someone they trusted and respected to get this across to them. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I think the Duggars have lost the vast majority of their fan base now.

My cousin used to have them on her FB TV likes. She lives in the South, is the daughter of a Southern Baptist pastor, isn't very politically outspoken but has only ever voted Republican (because aborted babies), in no way adheres to a modesty dress code (she wears bikinis, shorts, tank tops, etc), sends her kids to public school, is college-educated (from a private but accredited Christian college), posts on FB about how awesome church was every Sunday. She has ranted on her FB several times about how awful the Duggars' interview and lack of concern for the girls is. She would never identify herself as a feminist but she and her church friends have all posted and liked some pretty decidedly feminist reactions to the scandal and reactions similar to what we've seen here.

I'm thinking when plenty of people who would consider themselves mainstream Southern Christians start heavily critiquing the Duggars, they're done for.

My sister-in-law who got into a major argument with me years ago about the Duggars when I said no one should have that many kids because of over-population/limited natural resources (her only defense of them was but they're such good Christians, etc....I don't think she understood the Malthusian Theory logic I was throwing at her) hasn't said a word or posted anything in their defense. Her mother is the victim of family sexual abuse and her sister was abused by a close family friend. My guess is her love affair with the Duggars is over now. I'm thinking there are plenty like her.

My guess is that plenty of mainstream Christian women - who I assume make up the majority of the viewers (besides those who watch purely to snark) - aren't ever going to watch the show again because they are disgusted by the Duggars' lack of concern for the girls.

Edited June 6, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

MyPeopleAreNordic, I see what you're saying and that interpretation makes sense. If that's what they're saying, it plays so easily into rape culture. "Well, it's not like she was wearing short shorts or walking around alone at night, y'know? They weren't defrauding anyone!"

Yes, exactly. I'm glad I made some sense.

I think tonight's interview with the girls will also be not just an attempt to save the show/family brand but also for the girls to try to reinforce that they are just barely victims of Josh to salvage their reputations (and perhaps more importantly, that of their unmarried sisters) and reinforce the idea that they are not "licked cupcakes" or "chewed up gum" (choose your shame-inducing analogy) to those within Fundy Purity Culture by saying they didn't even know it happened, they forgave him, it's being overblown, etc.

It's a shame that the victims/survivors have to defend themselves.

Edited June 6, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[autumnh]

Now I can't help but wish to unleash Judge Judy on them!

 

I am from Brooklyn...and Judge Judy is one of my best friends aunt...i've never had the pleasure to meet her but she needs to run for office...there would NO.BULLSHIT. period lol

[Nysha]

 

Every single question Kelly asked gave them an opportunity to come out heroes, she even tried multiple times to get them to speak of their daughters (where they could have easily said, "you know, we don't have their permission to speak for them about it" and they would have looked like darlings!).

I don't think this would ever occur to them, because as far as their belief system goes, Jim Bob controls pretty much everything about those girls. They've never separated from their children. To them, they have the same right to speak for them as another parent would have to speak for their babies and toddlers.  

Edited June 6, 2015 by Nysha

[Fosca]

The question I wish someone would ask Jim Bob and Michelle is this: 'Why did you continue to have baby after baby when you knew how dysfunctional your family was?".

They couldn't successfully parent the 13 kids they already had - they admitted to feeling like failures as parents. How could they possibly think they could parent 19?

I suspect the answer would be "we had as many children as God gave us", without acknowledging all the help they were/are giving God via the fertility chart and suchlike.

[graefin]

"Aggressively fertile humans Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar said a lot of crazy things on Fox News about their son’s multiple molestations tonight. But no one seems to be talking about the craziest part: Michelle’s face—and mouth. And her dead, lifeless eyes."

http://gawker.com/michelle-duggars-crazy-vacant-fox-news-interview-stare-1708913161

Edited June 6, 2015 by graefin

[Sew Sumi]

By now, they may have convinced themselves that this is what happened, though.

 

They obviously knew at the time, given what's in the police report -- but I'm sure they were also very confused and alarmed and didn't want anyone to know. Even "over their clothes," there's a good chance they felt what was happening when it was happening, and felt some sensations that immediately put them into fear -- even terror -- and possibly guilt mode. And in that case you might start altering the memory in your mind right away. And then there was the long aftermath with their parents telling them things and eventually having to go and talk about it with strangers -- and these kids didn't talk to many strangers, especially non-church strangers.

 

Which is all to say that I expect the actual truth of what they felt back when it really happened has changed a lot in their minds over the years -- so many things can change your memories, and they've had a heaping helping of those things for these particular memories. .... I'm not sure I'd call anything she says now "lying," because I suspect that she inevitably lost hold of the actual truth of what happened and what she knew and what she felt years and years ago. And from then on, you're likely to be buying into whatever myth your whole family has changed the incident into.

What rings false is that they both have the EXACT SAME STORY! I think people internalize abuse differently, even if you're raised in a cult. As Jessa said in an old episode, Jill is the "emotional" one. I'd think that she and Jessa would have had vastly DIFFERENT experiences and responses to what happened based on their personalities alone.

[bluebonnet]

I don't think this would ever occur to them, because as far as their belief system goes, Jim Bob controls pretty much everything about those girls. They've never separated from their children. To them, they have the same right to speak for them as another parent would have to speak for their babies and toddlers.  

It may not occur to them but definitely should occur to whatever PR specialist they work with.  They can phrase it any way they want to make it fit with their belief system, just so long as they give themselves a reason for not discussing the girls at all instead of completely ignoring the multiple questions asks about them in favor of further defending Josh.  

[Twopper]

 

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I am not excusing them in anyway but I think within their culture, the downplaying of the molestation was in a strange way also a way to protect the girls' reputations and futures.

 

Agreed, and I am sure that's why the married girls are the ones being interviewed.

 

[frenchtoast]

Folks, a quick reminder, please don't "live chat" tonight's interview in any of the topics. The Part 2 topic will open at 10 PM Eastern and you can post all your thoughts then.

 

We'll delete posts that are live chatty. We don't want to have to lock this topic, but we will if we have to. You all have been wonderful and cooperative, so I'm sure we won't.

 

Thanks! 

[randomania]

[insert standard "I've read most of these posts, but there are so many and they come along quickly, so I might have missed someone saying exactly what I'm about to say" disclaimer...]

 

I think Josh has been absent from the press because there's no way for him to avoid throwing his parents under the bus - and that goes against everything his parents have drilled into him.

 

Hey, Josh, why did you do it in the first place? "I was curious about girls, because my parents never told us anything. Any questions or thoughts about sex were sinful and not discussed."

 

Did you know it was wrong? "Yes, but my parents said that as long as I begged God's forgiveness and my sisters said they forgave me, it was like it never happened."

 

You knew it was wrong, but you kept doing it. Your parents didn't try to stop you? "Well, they tried, I guess. But all they did was try to stop the last thing I did, rather than prevent future things. I mean, a locked door's no match for Satan, you know?"

 

But they finally sent you away? "Yes, they decided that if I had idle hands I should have them made righteously busy and maybe get some mentorship."

 

And then they let you back in the house? "Uh, yeah. I was forgiven, remember? They said it was cool. Thanks, Mom and Dad!"

 

I'm sure the FRC is happy that he's keeping quiet. The last thing they'd want the public thinking is that they hired an unqualified idiot just because he had the right last name. 

[sometimesy]

Ok, let's turn this on it's head and look at it, upside down.  What if another tragedy besides what the girls went through and are still going through, was that Josh was improperly taught, insufficiently parented, and a pretty messed up young man in many ways.  What he turned to was twisted and abhorent and sad.  So what good can come of this taking center stage in mass media and social media?  That this crisis goes on in families across the country.  We are being spurred, I think, to be vigilent and truth seeking for victims and empowering of victims that have thus far been silent.  So it is a good topic because it is real and rampant.  It is, well, reality.

 

I believe that there has been a lot hate mongering, demeaning, and shaming of the family.  In fact the attacks have been vicious and unrelenting all over the internet and cable tv.  Vultures preying with glee on the flesh of real people when they are down and,  I believe, crying out. The parents have been portrayed as money-grubbing uneducated imbecils who have sold there souls and their family to become rich and famous.  I believe this came about because they "preached" anti-gay and anti-trans views.  This was such a misguided choice on their part, IMO.  It is a casting of the first stone which brought a hail of stones aimed towards them.  Preaching morality rarely goes well except maybe in the pupit, to the choir.

 

I also hear jealousy about their tv show and the money it may generate.  I hear hate and meanness about Michelle's voice and that Jim Bob sounded rehearsed for the interview.  Of course he was rehearsed!  They practiced and had consultants and worked hard to make this ok, even hopelessly to make it go away.  Their famliy is shattered.  They have been humiliated.  I wonder when enough will be enough.

 

I do understand why their holier-than-thou preaching rubbed people raw.  And I do think the concern for the victims of molestation is quite real.  But somehow the final "gotcha" feels like the final bloody thrusts at a bullfight.

This bull can  leave the arena.

Edited June 6, 2015 by sometimesy

[Churchhoney]

What rings false is that they both have the EXACT SAME STORY! I think people internalize abuse differently, even if you're raised in a cult. As Jessa said in an old episode, Jill is the "emotional" one. I'd think that she and Jessa would have had vastly DIFFERENT experiences and responses to what happened based on their personalities alone.

 

I agree.

 

I still think that this is as likely or even more likely to be the family myth that they've gradually bought into over time as to be actual deliberate present-day lying on their parts. I am somewhat biased in this because I've seen this mythbuilding happen in a brainwashing family. And I've heard my family members spout some outrageous party lines that they once knew were not true -- but when they said the stuff, I'd be hard pressed to call it lying.

 

On the other hand, I do think that it's certainly possible that Jessa and Jill are deliberately and consciously lying here. Just saying that there is another possibility.

[b2H]

Bottom line would seem to be:

The parents have done all to protect the son, to the exclusion of protecting the daughters. Regardless of the rules of Gothardism, the rule of law prevails and the parents did not operate entirely under the rules of law. This is a cover up. Period.

The cover up comes on the heels of a very vocal campaign to protect sons and daughters from likely external predators when they had their own predator within their midst. Hence, the accusations of hypocrisy.

As a result of the cover-up and subsequent hypocrisy and shaming of whole segments of our society, no one really gives two rats about the legality of how the information was disseminated (legality issue having been all but resolved and Heaven help JB if he tries to sue because, well, gas meet fire).

The issue here is why, after all the hypocrisy and cover up, is no concern emitted from the parents for the well-being of their daughters? Why do they continue to deflect, as though tone deaf, back to Josh? Why will they not allow him to defend himself? Why did they out the daughters?

I have read all the posts. I want the parents to explain themselves.

[becca3891]

The question I wish someone would ask Jim Bob and Michelle is this: 'Why did you continue to have baby after baby when you knew how dysfunctional your family was?".

They couldn't successfully parent the 13 kids they already had - they admitted to feeling like failures as parents. How could they possibly think they could parent 19?

Honestly, we've heard their talking points way too often already on why they "trust God with the size of their family." Nothing was going to change their minds on that so I'd rather hit them with a bunch of questions about Gothard's more bizarre teachings regarding Levitical law, breast cancer being caused by not submitting to your husband, toddler girls defrauding their brothers, etc. No one will ever ask them those questions, sadly.

[Churchhoney]

Bottom line would seem to be:

The parents have done all to protect the son, to the exclusion of protecting the daughters. Regardless of the rules of Gothardism, the rule of law prevails and the parents did not operate entirely under the rules of law. This is a cover up. Period.

The cover up comes on the heels of a very vocal campaign to protect sons and daughters from likely external predators when they had their own predator within their midst. Hence, the accusations of hypocrisy.

As a result of the cover-up and subsequent hypocrisy and shaming of whole segments of our society, no one really gives two rats about the legality of how the information was disseminated (legality issue having been all but resolved and Heaven help JB if he tries to sue because, well, gas meet fire).

The issue here is why, after all the hypocrisy and cover up, is no concern emitted from the parents for the well-being of their daughters? Why do they continue to deflect, as though tone deaf, back to Josh? Why will they not allow him to defend himself? Why did they out the daughters?

I have read all the posts. I want the parents to explain themselves.

 

Well, I doubt that the messed-up little slimebag wants to defend himself! They might not thing he'd do a good enough job, though.

 

But I think they defend him and ignore the daughters because what Josh did reflects badly on them, and that's all they care about.  He did bad things, which could make them look bad. So they have to prove that he didn't really do bad things. Otherwise, their image is tarnished. Can't have that.

 

Meanwhile, the girls didn't do anything that reflects badly on them. The girls suffered things, but it would only occur to them to talk about that if they had empathy or feelings of responsibility. And since they don't have either of those, the girls don't even register as a possible topic.

[mynextmistake]

Well, I doubt that the messed-up little slimebag wants to defend himself! They might not thing he'd do a good enough job, though.

 

But I think they defend him and ignore the daughters because what Josh did reflects badly on them, and that's all they care about.  He did bad things, which could make them look bad. So they have to prove that he didn't really do bad things. Otherwise, their image is tarnished. Can't have that.

 

Meanwhile, the girls didn't do anything that reflects badly on them. The girls suffered things, but it would only occur to them to talk about that if they had empathy or feelings of responsibility. And since they don't have either of those, the girls don't even register as a possible topic.

I think it's more than that. Everything I've learned about Gothardism suggests it is an aggressively male-dominated, patriarchial society. I think that prioritizing Josh's well-being over the girls' well-being is because he's not only a boy, but the oldest boy. He was supposed to be the future leader of the family; all the Duggar's hopes for a lasting Christian army were pinned on him. I think this is why we've seen the political grooming, the carefully arranged marriage with a fellow Gothardite, the upset and angst when he left the fold for DC, etc. He was their torchbearer. Of course they're going to do everything they can to save him.

Which is all kinds of messed up, in my opinion, for all kinds of reasons. But I do think it plays a role in their behavior.

[Aethera]

Reminder - there will be a thread open for chat on the Friday night episode of The Kelly Files promptly at 10.  Please don't live chat or discuss it here. 

[paramitch]

Two very good post-interview critiques that I haven't seen posted here yet (ETA: typo fix):

 

InTouch

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/duggar-interview-7-crucial-facts-they-didn-t-tell-you-the-cover-up-continues-59917

 

Jezebel

http://jezebel.com/so-the-duggars-lied-a-lot-during-last-nights-fox-news-i-1709080779

 

The InTouch piece especially is very hard-hitting -- they absolutely defend their release of the initial revelations, and then examine everything the Duggars said and address it factually point by point -- and the result is pretty damning. 

 

I especially appreciated this especially pertinent comment from InTouch:

 

From InTouch:
1) One of the most glaring omissions by the family concerns their statements about the 2006 Springdale Police Department investigation. The Duggars gave the viewing audience the impression that they fully cooperated, saying, “We trusted them, we trusted the police department.” But the Springdale police report, obtained by In Touch through FOIA, reveals that Jim Bob refused to produce Josh for a police-requested interview and stopped cooperating with the probe. “On Tuesday, December 19, 2006 at approximately 1300 hours D. Hignite received a voice mail from Jim Bob Duggar in reference to the interview with [redacted, Josh]. Det. Hignite received a voice mail from Mr. Duggar stating that [redacted, Josh] had hired an attorney and will not be coming in for interview."

Edited June 6, 2015 by paramitch

[cheatincheetos]

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/jill-duggar-jessa-duggar-new-interview-parents-put-locks-doors-josh-duggar/

 

Just speechless. 

 

Barricades, locks on the doors, placing the parents bedroom in FRONT of the girls bedroom.

 

THIS is why he should have been removed from the house. I am sure it has been mentioned today sometime but it still has me flabbergasted.

They forgot the crocodiles wearing laser hats. Wouldn't it be simpler to have Josh move out for the few remaining years until he was an adult?  Again the perceived higher value of the male child being the tail that wags the dog.

Edited June 6, 2015 by cheatincheetos

[Churchhoney]

I think it's more than that. Everything I've learned about Gothardism suggests it is an aggressively male-dominated, patriarchial society. I think that prioritizing Josh's well-being over the girls' well-being is because he's not only a boy, but the oldest boy. He was supposed to be the future leader of the family; all the Duggar's hopes for a lasting Christian army were pinned on him. I think this is why we've seen the political grooming, the carefully arranged marriage with a fellow Gothardite, the upset and angst when he left the fold for DC, etc. He was their torchbearer. Of course they're going to do everything they can to save him.

Which is all kinds of messed up, in my opinion, for all kinds of reasons. But I do think it plays a role in their behavior.

 

Yeah, you're certainly right about all that. ....

 

I've just reached a point with the Duggars, JImBob especially, at which I see pretty much all of their "beliefs" as just tracing back to ego and ego alone.

 

I really don't think that JB "believes" in any idea or principle because it seems right or accurate or moral or in line with the Bible or whatever, be it Gothard or anything else. I think he merely embraces whatever ideas promise the most exaltation and protection for his own huge but fragile ego. To my mind, a lot of Gothard stuff would clearly be ego-boosting for JB. Thus, he "believes" in Gothardism. (And I think he'd totally ignore any Gothard principle -- or any other principle -- if it didn't protect and build his ego.)

 

Honestly, I think he's too stupid, ignorant and shallow to hold beliefs for any other reason.

[cmr2014]

It may not occur to them but definitely should occur to whatever PR specialist they work with.  They can phrase it any way they want to make it fit with their belief system, just so long as they give themselves a reason for not discussing the girls at all instead of completely ignoring the multiple questions asks about them in favor of further defending Josh.  

 

I really find it almost impossible to believe that they worked with a PR specialist. I think that the really horrible presentation that they put on on Wednesday was put together by JB, J'chelle and a group of trusted "church elders." 

 

I think that we really underestimate how isolated they are from mainstream society because they are on television, and travel all over the country giving speeches and signing books, but as far as I know, they don't watch TV, they don't listen to speeches given by anyone they might disagree with, and they certainly don't read books, or magazines, or newspapers. I think JB and J'chelle might watch Fox news and read parts of the newspaper that aren't "satanic" (like the sports pages, the comics, the horoscopes, etc.).

 

So they put together some talking points that they thought might work on this alien culture (the Fox news version of mainstream America). It apparently never crossed their minds that we might have read the police report -- so they should try to make their account match up (at least a little) with that document. They clearly have done no research on the topic of sexual molestation (apparently they have not been curious enough to look into it at all in 12 years).

 

I think they looked awkward, and the presentation appeared dishonest because I think that JB was trying to present his case to us in a way that we would understand.

 

I also think that Josh wasn't a part of this for multiple reasons: 1) this was JB' show. Josh was irrelevant, 2) Josh has been in DC for a few years and I think that he has developed some level of understanding of the outside world. I don't think that Josh would have gone along with the program word for word the way JB would expect, 3) The girls are sympathetic, Josh isn't. There was no way that JB wanted Josh out there digging the hole any deeper when he could have his pretty young daughters make his case.

[autumnh]

[EarlGreyTea]

Perhaps the most telling moment for me was that long, long silence when Megyn actually asked if they don't feel like hypocrites because of their discrimination against transgender people using certain bathrooms because they could be "molestors," among other things. That was the one I felt either they were put on the spot or their PR person (Jim Bob) didn't prepare an answer for. I could hear the hamster furiously turning in its wheel in JB's head as he tried to think of an answer to that one.

[Iguessnot]

Me three. I'm always leery of "body language experts" anyway, and of sweeping generalizations about body language. There are too many possible alternate reasons for just about any posture, look, etc. For instance, people claim that someone avoiding eye contact must be lying/prejudiced/whatever - but avoiding eye contact is one of the primary symptoms of someone suffering clinical depression. 

 

 

 

Shy and socially awkward people such as myself are particularly bad at eye contact.

[kalamac]

A friend of mine has a dad who's a cop, and he always laughs whenever crime shows pull out the whole "if you look to the left you're remembering, if you look to the right, you're making it up" thing. He says most of the liars he's encountered make an effort to look directly into your eyes, even as they're inventing the lie, because they've convinced themselves it makes them seem more trustworthy.

[Beth64]

I guess we know why Josh went to work with Jim Bob. It was a safeguard.