S05.E07: The Gift

[benteen]

Aren't Roose and Ramsay under the impression that Littlefinger is coming back with an army from the Vale? Why is Roose allowing Ramsay to keep her prisoner? It didn't make sense when it happened to Jeyne and it makes even less sense when it's Sansa. Does Roose think this won't jeopardize his relationship with the Vale?

How can D&D say they love this Winterfell story when they've taken all the intrigue and tension out, and only kept the abused girl?

 

That last part, yeah.  The Northern storyline was easily the best storyline in ADWD and D&D seem more interested in bringing Sansa into the Jeyne gets raped and abused storyline.

[nksarmi]

I don't think so.  I think he sends her way with Davos.  And Davos and Shireen end up where Rickon is because they need to get to a large castle quickly and safely.  Some place where Shireen can be hidden if her father loses.  I think burning his daughter is a bridge too far for Stannis.  I really do. 

I so hope you are right.  I was beginning to like him so much I was having issues with Brie's vow to kill him.  Your theory would make a lot of sense and they do need to get Rickon back in the story soon.  And wouldn't a marriage between Rickon and Shireen turn out very well someday?

 

Speaking of arranged marriages, I'm loving Marcella and her prince.  Prophesy be damned - I hope she gets to become a princess of Dorne.

[Pete Martell]

The other thing I hate about this storyline is that it just pits victims of torture and rape against each other. 

 

The text is far more punishing of Theon not helping Sansa than it is of Ramsay beating and raping her. And many fans follow suit, reminding us yet again of how Theon "truly has no balls" (a lovely sentiment that also shows just how high the misogyny also is in the fandom).

 

Victims in life are so often made to see each other as the enemy, are put in their place by their abusers. 

 

And this storyline merrily follows along. It's not about anything Ramsay does to Theon or to Sansa. It's about what Theon doesn't do for Sansa. It's about Sansa being "strong" because she's put in a position by the show where she is abused night and day, because the idea of a woman being strong in any terms but how well she can take assault is apparently anathema.

[MadMouse]

I'm praying they take Shireen with them.  DO NOT LET MEL BURN SHIREEN!!!  But yeah, Sam and Gilly are headed to Oldtown...hopefully that will work out better than Jaime and Bronn in Dorne. 

 

It happens in the book so you know no matter how bad of an adaption it'll be superior to these made up storylines. Plus since he's been name dropped we might get some Randyll Tarly. And maybe Marwyn or Sarella.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Stupid question -- so, Theon obviously betrayed Sansa, but I wasn't clear if he went straight to Ramsay's office and tattled, or went to the tower only to be surprised that Ramsay was already there (causing him to betray Sansa to avoid his own further punishment)?

Also, the award for winner of the episode and recipient of ten million badass points goes toooo.....Ghost!

Edited May 25, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[nksarmi]

When Melisandre talked about how her prophecies have been right, I kept expecting Stannis to yell "Balon Greyjoy is still alive, you twit!"

 

So, with Cersei locked up, the Small Council is down to Pycelle and Qyburn.  I'm curious if we'll get a scene between those two.  Not exactly Littlefinger and Varys.  Wonder if Kevan is going to be called back into town now.

I was just thinking that it's about time for him to show back up and try to guide poor Tommen in the mess Cersei's created with the FM.  That and he needs to get murdered by the end of the season I would imagine.

[SeanC]

Stupid question -- so, Theon obviously betrayed Sansa, but I wasn't clear if he went straight to Ramsay's office and tattled, or went to the tower only to be surprised that Ramsay was already there (causing him to betray Sansa to avoid his own further punishment)?

Ramsay was clearly sitting in some kind of office, which wouldn't be in the Broken Tower (or else that's an absolutely terrible place to choose to set a rescue signal), so i would imagine Theon went directly to Ramsay.

[screamin]

So, for the first time, I played video games while this show was on, only glancing at it now and again to see if anything interesting was happening. I mentioned in the boards a couple of episodes ago that Ramsey would peel someone like a grape in front of Sansa to teach her obedience? Lo and behold, it happened. I'm not terribly surprised, this show has begun hitting the beats of nauseating predictability.

 

Sansa gets betrayed and is reduced to a state of absolute helplessness (and IMO her moments of verbal defiance do not change this fact?) Check. We get the sexual assault threat of the episode? Check. We get the utterly and absurdly gratuitous boob shot of the episode? Check. About the only thing worth seeing was Jonathan Pryce and Lena Headey - and even that was marred by my wondering what the heck Littlefinger possibly could have to do with Lancel getting religion and confessing to the High Sparrow, and me also wondering why Cersei would bring Margaery an eminently throwable bowl of venison.

[trif]

Stupid question -- so, Theon obviously betrayed Sansa, but I wasn't clear if he went straight to Ramsay's office and tattled, or went to the tower only to be surprised that Ramsay was already there (causing him to betray Sansa to avoid his own further punishment)?

Also, the winner of the episode and recipient of ten million badass points goes toooo.....Ghost!

 

I don't think it's clear, but on rewatch, I think it was shot ambiguously enough to fake-out the viewer but that Theon knew Ramsay was there. If Ramsay was in the tower as an unusual thing, Ramsay would have had to put 2+2 together that Theon was going to light the candle. I think if Theon showed any signs of that level of betrayal, Ramsay would kill Theon. 

 

Edit: The suggestion above that it wasn't even the same tower, thanks, that makes even more sense. It bothered me that that would be the plan.

Edited May 25, 2015 by trif

[Shanna Marie]

I must say, watching the smug slide right off Cersei's face was a thing of beauty.

 

And the purpose behind Bronn being poisoned and then cured was ...? An excuse to reveal the talents of Dornish plastic surgeons and their superb boob jobs?

[dbell1]

I really need Gilly and Sam to leave the Wall. Gilly because she bores me, and Sam to advance plotline. The Wall is for celibate MEN (some from prison). It's not a nursery or a place for a Craster dimwit.

Farewell Aemon, you were the last sane Targ. Sam's speech had me tearing up. Leave it to Thorne to ruin a tender moment.

Brienne's going to get frostbite soon. Sansa trusted Theon to help her? So did Robb, and that didn't end well.

Happy to see Cersie hauled off. Maybe she can get the cell next to Marg?

And hoo fecking rah that Tyrion is with Dany. Now she can get real advice. Of course, being Dany, she'll probably make him into a dragon appetizer.

[Winnief]

 

I don't think so.  I think he sends her way with Davos.  And Davos and Shireen end up where Rickon is because they need to get to a large castle quickly and safely.  Some place where Shireen can be hidden if her father loses.  I think burning his daughter is a bridge too far for Stannis.  I really do.

I so hope you are right.  I was beginning to like him so much I was having issues with Brie's vow to kill him.  Your theory would make a lot of sense and they do need to get Rickon back in the story soon.  And wouldn't a marriage between Rickon and Shireen turn out very well someday?

 

That's better than my theory of Shireen going with Gilly and Sam.  It certainly fits with how they've set up the Davos/Shireen friendship AND Stannis's unconditional love for his daughter.  And I do think Rickon/Shireen would be a good dynastic match that could fulfill the long wanted wish for Stark and Baratheon bloodlines to be united.  ShowShireen would probably like ShaggyDog too!

[Knuckles]

I can't say I enjoyed the episode, but I was riveted. Jorah is one motivated man, and Tyrion's timing has not deserted him. Yeah, I did get a Gladiator flashback, of the early fights before Rome. Hizdahr does crouch on his throne like a frightened man;  he hasn't had time to explain his upcoming nuptials with the rest of the Harpy crew, which could be difficult for him.

Good night Aemon, you were wonderful on screen. Peter Vaughn was one of the constant joys of this show.

As for LF and Olenna's "young man", I'm guessing it's Tommen. LF would know that Cersei is heading for the black cells, and Tommen is now alone. Tommen wanting to use the Lannister army is not a bad idea, and I was surprised the Olenna backed down on the food threat so easily. Crazy Qyburn has not been heard from, nor the Frankenmountain with the dwarf's head...lots of potential for chaos here.

As for Sansa, bruised, raped at night, and by day, walking straight and tall and talking smack to the Bolton freak...jaw dropping.

And Ghost...always a welcome sight.

[mac123x]

The cinematography in the High Septon / Cercei scene was fantastic.  The torchlight flickering behind his head as he was speaking made me wonder, "is that the light of the Seven shining through... or is he supposed to be the devil?"

 

I assumed that the "boy you have an interest in" Littlefinger mentioned to Olenna was Olyvar.  They'll convince him to recant at the trial, say that Cercei put him up to lying, so Marge and Loras will go free or have some minimal punishment. 

 

Sansa the victim bores me.  I thought when she was talking to Ramsey about his bastardy, she was trying to sow some seeds of dissension between Ramsey and Roose.  Of course, any clever trickery on her part (if that was indeed the case) got washed away by Reek's betrayal.

[lovetowrite73]

I thought the young man Littlefinger was referring to in his convo with Olenna was Oliver, or whatever Loras's lover's name is. I think Littlefinger ell get him to recant his story to get Loras and Margaery off.

[Pete Martell]

Sansa trusted Theon to help her? So did Robb, and that didn't end well.

 

This isn't even Theon...which the show only bothers with half the time.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Ramsay was clearly sitting in some kind of office, which wouldn't be in the Broken Tower (or else that's an absolutely terrible place to choose to set a rescue signal), so i would imagine Theon went directly to Ramsay.

That's what I thought, but they made such a show of Theon going up a tower I thought Ramsay might have made some renovations so he could work/bask where a high born child "fell" and was subsequently crippled for life. Your conclusion makes much more sense, though.

Edited May 25, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[trif]

I thought when she was talking to Ramsey about his bastardy, she was trying to sow some seeds of dissension between Ramsey and Roose.

 

This is what I thought while watching too, but then the conversation kind of turned quickly. Just trying to get a dig in seems less likely...but I feel less and less sure of the show's intentions with this storyline, so who knows.

[SeanC]

Sansa trusted Theon to help her? So did Robb, and that didn't end well.

Well, apparently the only people she sees are Theon and Ramsay now, so her options are kinda limited.

 

Though why that old lady didn't think it was a good idea to light the candle herself is a question for the ages.

[benteen]

That's better than my theory of Shireen going with Gilly and Sam.  It certainly fits with how they've set up the Davos/Shireen friendship AND Stannis's unconditional love for his daughter.  And I do think Rickon/Shireen would be a good dynastic match that could fulfill the long wanted wish for Stark and Baratheon bloodlines to be united.  ShowShireen would probably like ShaggyDog too!

 

Davos bringing Shireen along to find Rickon (and Osha) would be awesome.  I'd so get onboard with that.

[Advance35]

Although I thought it was asinine when LF said that Ramsay was smitten with Sansa, maybe he was right.  Although Ramsay's smitten is clearly every sane person's nightmare.   The way he was strolling Sansa around waxing about how Sansa will be his wardeness of the North.   I can see why he's restrained (for Ramsay), he is in love with the picture of himself as the son of Great House with Sansa Stark, Highborn Girl with an impeccable bloodline (North, Vale and Riverlands Royalty) as his arm candy.    Sansa is clearly not cowed so I'm hoping to see her come up with something.

 

I thought Sam/Gilly was a waste of time from start to finish.

 

Isn't Jorah risking everyone by parading around with grey scale.

 

It does feel like Shireen, Stannis, Melisandre and Selyse's storyline is coming to a denouement.   I think they may lose to House Bolton.

[benteen]

I would think Theon went straight to Ramsay.  But I think even if he didn't, as soon as he saw Ramsay there was no way he was going to lie to him or conceal anything.

 

Sam and Gilly having sex at Castle Black is pretty dumb I'll admit.  You can't be having a girlfriend when you're over there.

Edited May 25, 2015 by benteen

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Nothing says consensual like arm bruises. And who didn't see her rape being used as a way to motivate Theon. Terrible writing in Winterfell. Speaking of rape again why the hell did they feel the need to create Gilly's almost rape? And then to transition that into her sex scene with Sam. Who doesn't like a little sexual assault to get them in the mood. 

 

Shallow pig man time. Hello Tyene, completely pointless but oh my.

 

 

Thank you! That bothered me so much. I'm supposed to believe a woman who was just threatened with sexual violence is going to suddenly want sex a few minutes later?

 

I am a man, so I fully accept my reading of this to be faulty, but having a partner who's been abused and talking about it with her has given me some insight.

 

Gilly's been abused all her life with Craster raping her when he felt like it and now the crows seem to be after the same.

 

She kisses him briefly then goes back.  I doesn't seem to be out of a rush of desire, but more she chooses this for the first time, she chooses to have sex and and chooses who. It's not just a reward she doesn't submit she's in control she even asks if she's hurting him, which is a role reversal (I'm gonna be honest though given the track record I think my reading of the scene is perhaps overly optimistic but I hope that's there)

[Pogojoco]

This is what I thought while watching too, but then the conversation kind of turned quickly. Just trying to get a dig in seems less likely...but I feel less and less sure of the show's intentions with this storyline, so who knows.

I think it was also meant to remind Sansa about Jon Snow (the two Stark siblings, both in book and show, that are the least close), to let her know he's alive and is also pretty damn powerful. If she finds out that Stannis has been at Castle Black, she might be able to negotiate something with him (if he beats the Boltons, that is.) through that connection. "Hey, you were chummy with my emo half brother at Castle Black!" 

 

In the book, Jon receives the so-called Pink Letter, thinks about Arya, then thinks about all his siblings (Bran climbing, Rickon laughing, Robb with snow in his hair, Sansa brushing Lady and singing) and decides to ride south. 

 

Whether Jon decides to ride south because of family stuff, or whether they just continue to play up on the wilding thing for the reason he gets Ceasered is up in the air. I like a combo of reasons better, myself. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pogojoco

[trif]

So...Littlefinger brought Cersei Olyvar last episode (on Cersei's demand, "the piece of information she knew I had"?), and Cersei brought him to the High Sparrow? I assumed Olyvar had been captured somehow by the Sparrows. This makes more sense, but I don't remember any allusions to this in their scene last week.

[kieyra]

If nothing else, I suppose the Gilly / Sam sex scene was in keeping with the episode's title/theme. She was basically doing him a favor, I thought. And I did chuckle at the "my goodness" bit, despite the intense secondhand embarrassment

[Funzlerks]

Daenerys's story is just so boring. The new Daario can't help it, but he just doesn't look or seem medieval or fantasy. He seems like he stepped out of a Nicholas Sparks movie to talk to Dany Sue Sullivan Calhoun about executing everyone. Meeting Tyrion felt so anticlimactic - the prosaic setting, Emilia Clarke's underwhelming eyebrow raises, Daenerys's continued callow way.

I appreciate that the show has made Gilly a bit less broken and more positive than the books. I have liked Sam's story and I till hope we get to Old Town eventually.

Ramsay seems smitten with Sansa. I think he feels like he is starting to protect her from herself and others. Sophie Turner has continued to improve in my opinion and she is working well with some of the more nuanced actors.

And I think Stannis is foreshadowed to lose in Winterfell based on his scene. I wonder if we will see something crazy like Stannis Stoneheart or wolves circling Winterfell. I feel like Roose or Ramsay will bite it. Maybe Ramsay because that opens the door for Sansa to make another move.

[Constantinople]

The Reach hasn't suffered during the wars, so there's little reason for the "the many" in the Reach to be discontented with "the few" Tyrells.

 

If Olenna cuts off the food supply to King's Landing, I expect most of KL's residents will "find religion" and offer up the sparrows and the High Sparrow himself to The Stranger.

[elzin]

Dear D&D,

 

All the Egg references in the world won't make forget what you did last week and the sexual assault you threw in this week.

 

Your plots are nonsensical and I can't see anything, even in daylight scenes.

 

Signed,

 

A viewer only hate watching in case you accidentally spoil the unwritten/unreleased books.

[Ripley68]

In the books , Roose fully expects Ramsay to kill his newborn son and any that may follow,  I can't remember if in the movies Roose had a true son, but in the books, Ramsay killed him.  Roose didn't seem to upset by it.  I wouldn't expect TV Ramsay to be too concerned about a baby.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer Sansa at Winterfell than Jeyne.  I hate GRRM dragging out characters you haven't heard of since the first book.  Ramsay's treatment of her doesn't irk me that much either, it's what is too be expected (and for him mild).  yes, Sansa was treated horribly by Joffrey, but he's now dead.  Ramsay has to do horrible stuff to someone we care about so his eventual downfall, or win, resonates more with the TV watchers.  I wish Theon would tell her about her brothers though.

 

The gratuitous nudity and sex doesn't usually bother me (it's not like we're talking about a civilized land here), but the sand snake one did. I get she needed to needle him some before giving him the antecdote, but the flashing was pretty unnecessary.  I don't get why she saved him though (besides narrative, what is her personal reason?).

Edited May 25, 2015 by Ripley68

[Greta]

 Dany Sue Sullivan Calhoun 

 

Dead.

[J----av]

Dear D&D,

 

All the Egg references in the world won't make forget what you did last week and the sexual assault you threw in this week.

 

Your plots are nonsensical and I can't see anything, even in daylight scenes.

 

Signed,

 

A viewer only hate watching in case you accidentally spoil the unwritten/unreleased books.

Yeah they should have just stayed faithful to the books right?

[Oscirus]

Interesting episode.

 

Littlefinger's plan becomes clearer. Create chaos in kings landing and pit the two most powerful houses against one another and use the chaos to bring himself further up the ladder. In this case, warden of the north.

 

I totally misread the Sansa scenes, I figured they were going to go one way and they completely went another. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I believe that tonight is going to begin the transformation of Reek back to Theon.  I think Sansa calling Ramsey a bastard was her way of trying to start a civil war between father and son not insult him. It will be interesting to see how her newfound weapon comes into play. I assume that Ramsey is going to catch a surprise on his next nightly visit.

 

Ignoring how the scene contradicts their earlier bit of wisdom about Tysha, I understood why the Sam Tilly sex scene happened. Given the house that she grew up in, it's not surprising that the only way she could think of rewarding Sam was with sex.

 

 

I really can't be bothered to care about Cersei's downfall. I guess it's good that she got her comeuppance. But eh. Also, the sparrow scenes are getting tedious.

 

The Dorne scenes were eh but the piggish male in me says that he loved the jail scene. I wonder why. I wonder if the most beautiful woman in the world becomes Bronn's love interest.  I understand why Myrcella didn't want to go back with Jamie. They pretty much  sent her away and now they expect her to come back with them on command? I probably wouldn't go back with them either.

 

I guess the real big news is that Dany and Jorah finally met up. It's going to be interesting to see how he works under her leadership. Also I can't help but to have a niggling doubt in my head that loverboy is going to betray Dany sometime in the near future.

 

Overall, I liked this episode.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Oscirus

[Miles]

In the books , Roose fully expects Ramsay to kill his newborn son and any that may follow,  I can't remember if in the movies Roose had a true son, but in the books, Ramsay killed him.  Roose didn't seem to upset by it.  I wouldn't expect TV Ramsay to be too concerned about a baby.

Did he actually end up killing him? I only remember a plan. But it's been a while.

Show-Roose seems to actually care for his son, so that would probably also go for a new one. So Ramsey would probably do better not to kill his brother and instead look for other ways to solidify his claim.

Even if a brother shouldn't be a problem, being father to a Stark (even if he won't be named Stark) will go far with the northeners, who can be stubborn and rebellious people.

Sansa is very safe until she has born him 1-2 sons.

 

The gratuitous nudity and sex doesn't usually bother me (it's not like we're talking about a civilized land here), but the sand snake one did. I get she needed to needle him some before giving him the antecdote, but the flashing was pretty unnecessary. I don't get why she saved him though (besides narrative, what is her personal reason?).

I don't see anything wrong with the nudity. It's Dorne, they don't have as much of a problem with nudity and it was a good way to rile Bron up a little and assert her dominance: "Hey even naked I have power over you.". I think she saved him because she liekd his singing. The sand snakes all seem a little on the crazy side, like their father was.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Miles

[WatchrTina]

 

Tommen - Dude, you have soldiers at your command, you want your wife back?  Send them in.

Except of course your mommy just told you that if you send in the soldiers -- if you "start a war" like you threatened to in that scene where you actually started acting a  little bit like a king -- you know who the first casualty will be.  In that scene I presume Cerise was hinting that Margery would be the first casualty and now Tommen has to worry that both is mother AND wife will be killed if he goes in with soldiers to seize them.

 

Poor Tommen.  He must really be missing the days when his biggest problem was finding ways to entertain Ser Pounce (and staying out of Joffrey's way). 

Edited May 25, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Pete Martell]

He is a monster. But not a monster without control. He is a very smart monster. He only does what he can get away with. He needs Sansa to give him an heir. If he has a son that is half a Stark it's going to solidify his position and means that his father having other children isn't a threat to him anymore.

 

If his main goal is to have an heir, then beating and raping Sansa every night isn't the best way to go about it. It could easily damage her body to a point where she would not be able to bear a child.

 

To me the show seems totally at a loss over what this character is supposed to be. He's supposed to be dangerous, but not too dangerous. We're supposed to be afraid of  him, but also supposed to think he's so chill that he won't care that much when Sansa belittles and insults him. We're supposed to be more upset over Sansa's "betrayal" by Reek (because of course victims of rape and torture are just there to further victimize Sansa - it's not like they have any purpose of their own) than over anything Ramsay has done to her. We're supposed to believe he would do a bad ripoff of what Joffrey did to Septa Mordane as some attempt to frighten Sansa, because he suddenly has enough self-control to where he'd just take his anger out on some woman she will barely be affected by as some type of "lesson" she isn't going to especially care about learning.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[tennisgurl]

So a ton happened in this episode, but what I want to really remind people is that 

 

HOLY CRAP TYRION MET DANNY! This is seriously going off road now, I have no clue whats going on. I haven't been this on the edge of my seat since I was just a little unsullied back in season 1. I`ll withhold judgement, but I think this is going to be a great change. 

 

While Cersei was smirking all over the place, gloating at Margery, I just kept thinking "enjoy it while it lats, because that smug smile is about to get wiped right off your face". 

 

I don't really like thinking of the Theon/Sansa stuff too much, because it is intensely depressing, but no way do I think she was reminding Ramsy of his bastard status just to piss him off. She`s trying to turn him against his father. Divide and conquer. I think i do get where they are going with this story, that Sansa will rise from all this trauma and abuse and become the next great Stark leader, but damn. Did it have to be this nasty? 

 

Still, good episode. 

[Pete Martell]

I don't really like thinking of the Theon/Sansa stuff too much, because it is intensely depressing, but no way do I think she was reminding Ramsy of his bastard status just to piss him off. She`s trying to turn him against his father. Divide and conquer. I think i do get where they are going with this story, that Sansa will rise from all this trauma and abuse and become the next great Stark leader, but damn. Did it have to be this nasty? 

 

That's one of the things that gets me about this storyline. Nothing Sansa has done at Winterfell makes me think she would be able to be a leader. She has been regressed to, essentially, a more blatantly angry version of late season 1 Sansa. If I didn't know better I would wonder if they were doing this storyline to kill her off, because she's essentially lost all interest in the game and is willing to say whatever she wants, regardless of the consequences. 

 

If we're supposed to just want her to kill everyone, fine, but what exactly was the point of her storyline in the last 4 seasons? Wasn't that Arya's storyline?

[Miles]

If his main goal is to have an heir, then beating and raping Sansa every night isn't the best way to go about it. It could easily damage her body to a point where she would not be able to bear a child.

She doesn't look badly beat up and how else would he get an heir in there than by raping her? We don't know how brutal the rapes actually are. Even if they are very brutal, the probability that he would damage anything to the extend that it would prvent her from getting pregnant are rather slim. Contrary to popular republican believe the body has no way to shut that hole thing down when it's a legitamate rape.

To me the show seems totally at a loss over what this character is supposed to be. He's supposed to be dangerous, but not too dangerous. We're supposed to be afraid of him, but also supposed to think he's so chill that he won't care that much when Sansa belittles and insults him. We're supposed to be more upset over Sansa's "betrayal" by Reek (because of course victims of rape and torture are just there to further victimize Sansa - it's not like they have any purpose of their own) than over anything Ramsay has done to her. We're supposed to believe he would do a bad ripoff of what Joffrey did to Septa Mordane as some attempt to frighten Sansa, because he suddenly has enough self-control to where he'd just take his anger out on some woman she will barely be affected by as some type of "lesson" she isn't going to especially care about learning.

I think his character has been very consistent. That he is a calculating monster instead of a stupid impulsive one, like Joffrey was, makes him even more scary.

He tries to torture Sansa more psychologically, precisely because there are limits on how much he can physically torture her. It just doesn't seem to work too well. Sansa has seen too much shit for that.

YMMV ofcourse.

[MrWhyt]

It's Dorne, they don't have as much of a problem with nudity and it was a good way to rile Bron up a little and assert her dominance

 

And get his blood pumping, get that poison moving through his veins.

[Pete Martell]

She doesn't look badly beat up and how else would he get an heir in there than by raping her? We don't know how brutal the rapes actually are. Even if they are very brutal, the probability that he would damage anything to the extend that it would prvent her from getting pregnant are rather slim. Contrary to popular republican believe the body has no way to shut that hole thing down when it's a legitamate rape.

 

Presumably the bruises are where we can't see, like with Joffrey.

 

Based on her cries of pain I assume they are brutal. Between that, and the extensive beatings she faced at King's Landing that always seemed to be around her stomach and lower body, I'd think she'd run a risk, but I'm not a doctor. 

 

Either way, I think if Ramsay is that insistent on his having an heir, he'd come up with better ways than having it happen night after night. 

[Advance35]

I think his character has been very consistent. That he is a calculating monster instead of a stupid impulsive one, like Joffrey was, makes him even more scary.

He tries to torture Sansa more psychologically, precisely because there are limits on how much he can physically torture her. It just doesn't seem to work too well. Sansa has seen too much shit for that.

YMMV ofcourse.

 

 

IA.  Ramsay is evil and sadistic but he is NOT stupid.   He knew and executed a plan of torture that allowed him to psychologically destroy another person (Theon) that puts him a notable length ahead of Joffrey who was a buffoon who had a lot of muscle at his disposal.

 

I'm one of the people who actually didn't mind Sansa's storyline in the Vale but It would not transfer well to the screen.   First the budget would NOT allow it, the sets, the extra's, the actual characters like Myranda and the others.  Oh please, that being transferred to the screen was a pipe dream.   They are not stalling and they are not lost unlike GRRM, they are not dragging things out they are getting to it (as evidenced by the Tyrion/Dany meeting).

 

I think Sansa has a self-possession that was definitely NOT on display while she was in Kings Landing.   Despite all that's happened to her she has a sense of value about herself or at least that's what I feel the actress conveys.    Schemes go wrong or people get in over their heads, it happens.   Now Sansa is keeping her eyes open for a way to get herself out of the mess she's in.   Unlike Loras and Margaery she doesn't have a canny older relative looking out for her best interest.   She operates under the belief that she's alone in the world and that ultimately nobody really cares about her.   It's amazing Sansa doesn't just go fetal and call it a day, she's still got enough left in her to poke back at Ramsay whenever she can.

 

I'll take a chair at the table that is ultimately happy with this storyline.   Great Acting, Pathos, Drama, Suspense.

[Pete Martell]

I think Sansa has a self-possession that was definitely NOT on display while she was in Kings Landing.   

 

I think if she had self-possession she wouldn't tell Ramsay he's a bastard. She'd feign complacency, as she often had to do at King's Landing. I just don't think the show wants to write that because they know they'd get even more criticism. So when she isn't being violated she gets to make a few clever quips for our sake.

IA.  Ramsay is evil and sadistic but he is NOT stupid.   He knew and executed a plan of torture that allowed him to psychologically destroy another person (Theon) that puts him a notable length ahead of Joffrey who was a buffoon who had a lot of muscle at his disposal.

 

The main difference is Joffrey always had people restraining him. Up to recently Ramsay only had a distant father. So the idea that he would put up with someone, especially a woman, belittling and degrading him, and making escape plans, and only responding by killing some old lady she barely knows - it doesn't work for me.

[Advance35]

I think if she had self-possession she wouldn't tell Ramsay he's a bastard. She'd feign complacency, as she often had to do at King's Landing. I just don't think the show wants to write that because they know they'd get even more criticism. So when she isn't being violated she gets to make a few clever quips for our sake.

 

 

I disagree.  She's confident he won't kill her, I'd imagine she's still testing boundaries.   And she didn't throw quips at him, she reminded him of a concern he had in the past and an issue that most people on the political board will take note of.   He's a legitimized bastard by a bastard and his little brother will be a genuine highborn from Houses Bolton and Frey.   After that comment he took a great deal of pleasure in showing her the old woman that was helping her.   She detest him in every way, he's a psychopath that is attracted to her and wants to terrorize, possess and dominate her in every way.   I'd be horrified in real life but it keeps me tuned in on this fiction platform.

 

If I had to watch Sansa morph into the Super Girl of the Courtly Intrigue world overnight I think I would start tuning out Sansa's storyline altogether.  THAT I would find unbelievable.  She's learning without training wheels or a matriarch guiding her every step of the way.   I'm more impressed with her than Bombshell Margaery Tyrell in all honesty.

[Happy Harpy]

Three Hell Yeah!:

Hell, yeah! Finally, Daenerys and Tyrion meet!

Hell, yeah! Cersei gets her comeuppance!

Hell, yeah x100 ! Bronn didn't die!

 

Shit is going to go down at House Baratheon. For the first time, I think, I saw Melisandre as surprised, and not in a good way, at Stannis' reaction. I believe she just realized that her hold on him isn't absolute, not when it comes to his daughter. Where it goes from here is anyone's guess. I would love if my lovely team Daveen was to go in search of Rickon, but with last week's "no fairytale" reminder, I'm afraid Melisandre is going to burn Shireen behind Stannis' back.

 

Oh, Jorah. His poor broken heart is all Daenerys'. He went to the pits and took down everyone without killing them, knowing that his queen couldn't stand the slaughter. And so badass. Tyrion was 100% badass, too -and still talks too much. I can't wait to see what they have in store here.

 

Myrcella, I'm sorry that I underestimated you last week. You're nice and naive, but you have a spine. I assumed that she didn't know that Jaime was her father, therefore she was surprised that her uncle, who wasn't a real part of her life, suddenly interfered in it; whereas Jaime has reached a point in his evolution where he finally considers her as his daughter (scene with Cersei last week). 

Beyond the obligatory boob time, maybe there was an ulterior motive, like Bronn being a possible asset for an escape in the Sand Snake's eyes.

 

Ramsay 1 - Sansa 0. She lost a battle, she didn't lose the war. The comparison with the KL's scenes of the previous seasons only stress, for me, how different the character is. Her barbs at Joffrey were imo those of a despaired child, made on the spur of the moment, with no plan or agency, and she was waiting for someone to save her. Here, she tries to save herself with whatever little she has (Theon), she knows what she says, she has a goal in mind, she fully knows the consequences and yet she doesn't give up. I still don't like or enjoy in any way the picture of her daily "life" that I'm given. But I won't call it a regression of her character, on the opposite. 

 

I'm not going to complain when sex is consensual on this show. ICAM with the fact that Gilly made a choice for once, for the first time in her life in that respect. And aside from Gilly and Gilly/Sam character development and evolution in their relationship, I think the assault scene also shows how -ironically- the Watch will crumble in pieces of scumbags without someone like Jon at its helm. Sam is badass, everything happens!

So, it's probable they're not going to do any warging but for Bran, right? And I start to think that Jon might not warg into Ghost after FTW. Having the camera pan to Jon after Ghost saving of Sam, waking up for example, would have been a way to foreshadow it and nope.

 

Sometimes, showing violence is necessary. Without the violent scenes of the previous episodes, I'd be tempted to root for the High Sparrow.

Tommen is a disaster as a king. Not just because he's too young, imo. 

Littlefinger/Olenna went as I expected so far. Maybe we'll know the fate of Loras and Maergery before the end of the season. 

 

Where. Is. Arya? Seriously. Yes, maybe time is elapsing and she's progressing in her training but then, I have the same complaint as last week re: timeline. Myrcella has been in Dorne "for years", and Gilly's baby is still only a few months old. Nope. This really starts to bug me.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Andromeda]

Great episode -- well, two things in particular: The ending! LOL, Cersei, that's karma, beeyotch. And Tyrion sharing sentences with Dany!! I waded through hundreds of pages in the novels to see that happen (and as you all know, am still waiting). I am so stoked to see what happens next on that front.

I wasn't expecting Sam and Gilly to get it on. It's like they saw the sketch on SNL and decided to show why they're now the show's new "hottest couple" -- BWAH!!!

Edited May 25, 2015 by Andromeda

[Avaleigh]

Is there an explanation for why Melisandre and Stannis can't send in a shadowbaby for Ramsay or Roose? I know Mel said one time that another one might kill Stannis but it almost seemed like she was trying to seduce Stannis in that scene so I'm wondering what would have happened if Stannis hadn't pulled away from her. 

I understand why Myrcella didn't want to go back with Jamie. They pretty much  sent her away and now they expect her to come back with them on command? I probably wouldn't go back with them either.

I continue to feel like Jaime has failed to adequately explain things to Myrcella. She's clearly not getting the 'you in danger girl' message. Why doesn't Jaime say 'THEY SENT US A DEATH THREAT, MYRCELLA!'

 

 And Reek/Theon is CLEARLY secondary to Sansa in the WF story.

Agreed.

 

To me the show seems totally at a loss over what this character is supposed to be. He's supposed to be dangerous, but not too dangerous. We're supposed to be afraid of  him, but also supposed to think he's so chill that he won't care that much when Sansa belittles and insults him. We're supposed to be more upset over Sansa's "betrayal" by Reek (because of course victims of rape and torture are just there to further victimize Sansa - it's not like they have any purpose of their own) than over anything Ramsay has done to her. We're supposed to believe he would do a bad ripoff of what Joffrey did to Septa Mordane as some attempt to frighten Sansa, because he suddenly has enough self-control to where he'd just take his anger out on some woman she will barely be affected by as some type of "lesson" she isn't going to especially care about learning.

Ramsay doesn't know exactly what Joffrey put Sansa through and wouldn't be likely to know details about Septa Mordane. As for the idea that Sansa will barely be affected by the death of a woman who'd just gone out of her way to try to help her--I completely disagree. I thought Reek's betrayal of Sansa was to show that he's in an even worse place mentally than he was back when Yara tried to rescue him. Also, it isn't that he won't care when she insults him. I think he takes note of everything. When Sansa made the bastard comments he knew that he was moments away from hurting and terrifying her again. 

 

Another thing, I don't care if she barely knew this woman, this was the first time Sansa has seen someone being flayed. That was definitely worse than what happened to Septa Mordane as horrific as that was. At least she wasn't tortured for hours. Sansa knows that the woman was tortured and killed for trying to help her. Of course that's going to shake Sansa up. I'm genuinely surpried that people would think Sansa would barely be affected by something like this. 

 

Where. Is. Arya? Seriously. Yes, maybe time is elapsing and she's progressing in her training but then, I have the same complaint as last week re: timeline. Myrcella has been in Dorne "for years", and Gilly's baby is still only a few months old. Nope. This really starts to bug me.

Yeah, even if Myrcella has only been in Dorne for two years this isn't even close to adding up and she makes it seem like it was longer than that. 

I think if she had self-possession she wouldn't tell Ramsay he's a bastard. She'd feign complacency, as she often had to do at King's Landing. I just don't think the show wants to write that because they know they'd get even more criticism. So when she isn't being violated she gets to make a few clever quips for our sake.

I think it's proof of Sansa's growth. In KL she would have responded robotically and honestly that probably would have bored Ramsay and he'd probably try to make life even more miserable for her just to get some sort of reaction. I agree that he seems to "like" her in the way that a person like him could possibly like anyone which is to say not in the way that normal people like each other but in a way that somehow makes sense to him in his twisted mind. 

 

ETA

 

Lol at Meilsandre failing to mention Balon Greyjoy when she brought up the leeches and Stannis didn't do it either! The mystery of why they aren't addressing this dropped plot is becoming comical at this point.

 

I don't care if the Iron Islands have been flooded into nonexistence just tell me it happened so I can stop wondering.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Avaleigh

[patchwork]

The way the Sansa/Ramsay storyline is unfolding I wont be surprised if the next time we see Ramsay shirtless he's sporting a few bruises of his own. He always "wins" but Sansa is putting up a fight (cause she's a strong girl and rape is empowering blah blah).

 

Pointless stripping by Sand Snake #2 aside I almost liked the dungeon scene, Bronn is a great singer and he didn't die. It might be my imagination but I swear Sand Snake #3 even rolled her eyes at #2 antics showing a hint of personality and the type of relationship the girls have with one another. 

 

I think Stannis is being set up for a Blackwater like failure, he's going to send his daughter away with Davos then he'll lose against the Boltons. 

[Pete Martell]

Ramsay doesn't know exactly what Joffrey put Sansa through and wouldn't be likely to know details about Septa Mordane. As for the idea that Sansa will barely be affected by the death of a woman who'd just gone out of her way to try to help her--I completely disagree. I thought Reek's betrayal of Sansa was to show that he's in an even worse place mentally than he was back when Yara tried to rescue him. Also, it isn't that he won't care when she insults him. I think he takes note of everything. When Sansa made the bastard comments he knew that he was moments away from hurting and terrifying her again. 

 

Another thing, I don't care if she barely knew this woman, this was the first time Sansa has seen someone being flayed. That was definitely worse than what happened to Septa Mordane as horrific as that was. At least she wasn't tortured for hours. Sansa knows that the woman was tortured and killed for trying to help her. Of course that's going to shake Sansa up. I'm genuinely surpried that people would think Sansa would barely be affected by something like this. 

 

Ramsay doesn't know, but the show does. Reusing Joffrey's greatest hits just makes the story feel more inauthentic to me. 

 

I don't really trust the show to tell us it has shaken Sansa up, because they rarely show Sansa grieving or reacting to much of anything, whether it be the death of her father, or mother and brother, or being repeatedly raped. I took the scene as being for us - that we were supposed to be shocked and horrified that sad servant extra was flayed, and isn't this wicked. 

 

Unfortunately between the heavy emphasis on overpriotirizing Reek "betraying" Sansa (just one more way to make her a victim and to make sure we have nothing but contempt for Theon), and the decision to have Sansa make digs at a blase Ramsay, I feel like they undercut any emotion they were going for. But then I don't even know if we're supposed to care at all, or if we're just supposed to pinch ourselves to generate an emotion until the inevitable escape or rescue around episode 9.

[Avaleigh]

With Theon/Reek actively making the choice to make Sansa's life worse in this episode I thought that would at least quell the fears from those who were concerned that the story would be too much about Theon rescuing Sansa as opposed to Sansa helping herself.

 

If Ramsay is playing Joffrey's greatest hits then I think he's done a pretty good job of remixing it all to make them his own. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Avaleigh