S04.E01: Two Swords

[matilda76]

I enjoyed this episode very much, although the Wildling scene bored me ever so slightly. Loved Olenna throwing the necklace off the balcony, but I had completely forgotten about her complicity in Joffrey's murder. It's been so long since I read the books that I had reduced culpability in my mind to Littlefinger alone. Now I'll have to go back and re-watch the scene. Loved Margaery's rare candidness about who she's marrying. Very much enjoyed the introduction of Oberyn -- the actor clearly relishes the role. I'll be sad when the Mountain takes him down. It makes me quite eager to see an introduction for Doran and the Sand Snakes, although I can't remember whether they only come into it with AFFC.

It is interesting to see how they're setting up Shae for her downfall as opposed to the book--jealousy rather than greed/coercion....I don't think it works quite as well. I imagine some heartbreaking/bitter scenes for Peter Dinklage coming very soon.

I'm looking forward to some scenes back at the Eyrie with Lysa, Sansa, and Littlefinger, although I'm disappointed that the showrunners have eliminated Sansa's part in plotting her own escape. I thought GRRM wrote the Eyrie scenes very entertainingly, so I hope my expectations aren't disappointed!

[Helena Dax]

 

It is interesting to see how they're setting up Shae for her downfall as opposed to the book

What if Tywin just kills Shae like he said he would?  That would give Tyrion one more reason to kill Tywin. I  mean,  I can't see  this Shae bertraying Tyrion when she refused a bag full of diamonds for him. It would be a huge change, but it makes sense.

[yellowfred]

Is Loras still not the firstborn son in the show? For some reason I seem to remember a mention of his brothers being removed for the sake of making the story easy to follow, but here it seems problematic. 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Loras is meant to be the Tyrell's only son, at this point.  They've referred to him as the heir to Highgarden more than once.  Plus, in that scene with Tywin and Olenna where he threatens to put Loras in the Kingsguard if he doesn't marry Cercei, Tywin seems to say that he's the only male heir they have.

 

I think it will be much easier for the viewer to see a stone missing from a necklace than it will be from a hairnet. On the otherhand, it would be easier for someone to remove a stone from a hairnet than a necklace without the wearer noticing. We'll see what happens, I guess.

Yeah, I can see how it'd be easier to actually see it missing, but I feel like that might be a problem.  Having Olenna adjust Sansa's hairnet is a fairly innocuous gesture, both for Sansa and for the audience.  Unless they did some kind of close up, you probably wouldn't see that she took one of the stones, or even that one was missing.  With the necklace, there aren't that many stones to begin with and they're going to be right on her chest, so for Olenna to take it and for anyone to not notice it was missing all through the feast seems a bit silly.  

Along the same lines, I don't really like that Dontos didn't mention anything about helping Sansa escape.  I realize that, after all that's happened, she's probably less likely to get on board with it than she would have been back when she still had most of her family and a home to go back to, but still.  

[Dev F]

I'm not sure that would work. If Jon Snow isn't dead at the end of ADwD, it's only because of his ability to warg into Ghost. And I can't imagine that Bran would help Arya in her assassin training (where warging into the cat helped her when she was blind).

Well, we don't know for a fact that that's what's going on with Jon. But in any event, I think it's more likely that Bran will somehow be involved in the warg elements of his siblings' storylines than that the show will suddenly decree that the thing it always said was unique to Bran is actually shared by his whole family, who will end up employing it more usefully than he does.

Maybe Bran will end up, say, awakening his siblings' latent abilities somehow? I can imagine a story point in which he reaches out to his scattered and despairing brothers and sisters and reminds them of their shared Starkdom.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Loras is meant to be the Tyrell's only son, at this point.  They've referred to him as the heir to Highgarden more than once.  Plus, in that scene with Tywin and Olenna where he threatens to put Loras in the Kingsguard if he doesn't marry Cercei, Tywin seems to say that he's the only male heir they have.

Of course, Tywin would also say that if Loras had a younger brother who was a cripple, for the same reason that he refuses to entertain the idea that Tyrion might inherit Casterly Rock. So there's still some wiggle room if they want to introduce Willas at some point.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dev F

[Tara Ariano]

Jeff/Westeros ravens Blackie and Bitey ranked the houses based on this week's episode!

[Boundary]

Jeff/Westeros ravens Blackie and Bitey ranked the houses based on this week's episode!

Does that mean we are back to the Three Eyed Crow? 

[DigitalCount]

What if Tywin just kills Shae like he said he would?  That would give Tyrion one more reason to kill Tywin. I  mean,  I can't see  this Shae bertraying Tyrion when she refused a bag full of diamonds for him. It would be a huge change, but it makes sense.

Couldn't we have Tywin do something like sell Shae into captivity to go east as a slave? That way, Tysha can stay in the past as she should, and Tyrion can still murder Tywin for the "wherever whores go" line. At the same time, it might be a bit harder to justify Tyrion's anger at Tywin calling Shae that, since Shae is actually a whore (albeit a funny one).

Furthermore, Tyrion absolutely has to kill someone he probably could have let live. He is not by any stretch of the imagination a white hat, even though his hat is the whitest of those worn by his family members (with the possible exception of Kevan). There needs to be that moment of him just seeing red and crossing the line. Tywin, people can agree, had it coming. But Shae, even with her damning testimony, was essentially killed for hurting Tyrion's feelings the 3,167th time (when #3,166 wouldn't have been met with murder); while he probably could have killed her for what she said and how she nearly got Tyrion and Sansa both executed, that's not actually why he did do it. On the other hand, from a practical standpoint there will be some weirdness. Book!Shae was quite a bit younger than show!Shae, so it wasn't quite as odd that Tyrion would be able to kill her, but I think show!Tyrion would need to be behind Shae and take her by surprise in order to kill her, since this Shae is fierce as heck. I'm very curious to see how they handle this.

[matilda76]

What if Tywin just kills Shae like he said he would?  That would give Tyrion one more reason to kill Tywin. I  mean,  I can't see  this Shae bertraying Tyrion when she refused a bag full of diamonds for him. It would be a huge change, but it makes sense.

I'm a little skeptical the showrunners would reduce it to something as straightforward as that. Now that Cersei's spy has ratted Shae out, this puts her in the unenviable position of being at Cersei's mercy. Or lack thereof. I can see Cersei forcing her into testifying against Tyrion. If this is also spurred on by Shae's jealousy of Tyrion and Sansa, she might be more a more willing participant in her own coercion than she would've been otherwise. I don't know how this might play out in putting her in Tywin's bed -- but we'll know soon enough!

[Andromeda]

What if Tywin just kills Shae like he said he would?  That would give Tyrion one more reason to kill Tywin. I  mean,  I can't see  this Shae bertraying Tyrion when she refused a bag full of diamonds for him. It would be a huge change, but it makes sense.

That's what I expect to happen. I'm thinking it's because while we read about Tyrion's first wife, and the horrible thing Tywin did to her, the audience for the show never saw it (just heard Tyrion tell it, a long time ago). So if they see Tywin doing something horrible to Shae in the present, it will reinforce and explain Tyrion's hatred toward his father and his violent reaction.

Because otherwise, it makes no sense for Show Shae to go down the way Book Shae did, even if she's jealous. I can't see her betraying Tyrion like Book Shae did.

I could have done without the cannibals. Not sure what they're really going to add. "Cannibals" were just referenced in passing in a Season 3 episode, and I don't recall anything of them from the books, except being one more tribe north of the Wall. That arm looked finger-lickin' good on that spit, though... (In reality, I doubt a human arm would provide much good meat--far too sinewy. EW. With this show, plus Hannibal, plus Walking Dead, I'm all cannibaled out for now.)

[sunflower]

 

Along the same lines, I don't really like that Dontos didn't mention anything about helping Sansa escape.

I'm worried too because if she doesn't know she's supposed to escape under cover of Joffrey Wedding Chaos, why would she make a run for it?  Maybe next episode give us some decent answer.

Edited April 7, 2014 by sunflower

[GreyBunny]

Was the grove of corpses that Arya/Sandor passed supposed to be significant? I was wondering if that's a Schrodinger's Catelyn nod. I wasn't sure if they were just supposed to be the victims of the rougher Kingsguard people blowing through like brutes, or if that was foreshadowing something else.

I think it was just to show that Polliver and pals were dangerous brutes who killed for fun and that if Arya and Sandor confront them they're going to have a fight on their hands.

I love that they didn't have Arya fly into a rage, the quiet and icy way she just slid the sword into his throat - and the smirk that she enjoyed it - was chilling and perfect.

Interesting that they'd make the tribe from Terminus...oops, I mean the Thenns into cannibals.  In the books they're considered relatively cultured.  It's the Skagosi who are rumored to be cannibals and Davos is headed there.

Edited April 7, 2014 by GreyBunny

[polyhymnia]

Am I remembering correctly from the books that when Arya picked Polliver as one of her three names it was largely in response to the story he and the Mountain's other men were telling about raping the innkeeper's daughter?  So they used the same scene, just had the Hound and Arya intervene.  The innkeeper kept telling the Mountain that his daughter wasn't a whore, the Mountain paid the innkeeper, raped the girl in front of him, paid him, and then made him give the Mountain change.  Polliver thought the story was hilarious and Arya's picked his name (instead of torture guy, who she picked in the show).  Right?

They did a great job with Oberyn and Ellaria, I thought. 

I really hope we get a Tyrion/Jaime scene before the Purple Wedding.  It will be a wasted opportunity if not.

[Boundary]

I guess someone has to mention this. When the dragon flew away from Dany, her dress flapped a bit in the wind. I thought that was a cool, neat detail.

[Ffiferoo]

Am I remembering correctly from the books that when Arya picked Polliver as one of her three names it was largely in response to the story he and the Mountain's other men were telling about raping the innkeeper's daughter?  So they used the same scene, just had the Hound and Arya intervene.  The innkeeper kept telling the Mountain that his daughter wasn't a whore, the Mountain paid the innkeeper, raped the girl in front of him, paid him, and then made him give the Mountain change.  Polliver thought the story was hilarious and Arya's picked his name (instead of torture guy, who she picked in the show).  Right?

They did a great job with Oberyn and Ellaria, I thought. 

I really hope we get a Tyrion/Jaime scene before the Purple Wedding.  It will be a wasted opportunity if not.

I think it was Chiswyk that she chose from that scene and that Polliver was actually on the list (between Dunsen and Raff the Sweetling).  I can't go back and check right now, but I think Polliver made it longer and might have been in the inn scene, although the Tickler was Arya's kill.  I might be making all of that up though...

[Izzyboy]

 

I really hope we get a Tyrion/Jaime scene before the Purple Wedding.  It will be a wasted opportunity if not.

Actually I hope we get a scene with all the Lannisters together...Tywin, Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, and Joffrey.  It'd be cool to see one scene with them all together before the shit hits the fan.

Really enjoyed this episode.  I liked Oberyn's entrance and thought it worked well.  It was definitely how I pictured him.  I continue to love the pairing of Arya and The Hound as well. 

A cool moment I noticed on re-watch is when Oberyn walks in on the two Lannister men in the brothel he passes his hand over the flame of a burning candle.  I saw it as a nod to how the Martells are from the hottest climate in the south of Westeros.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Izzyboy

[GreyBunny]

I loved that Oberyn called out Rhaegar Targaryen for the douchebag that he is.  He and Lyanna ran off together but he humiliated Elia in the process.  

[joliefaire]

I loved that Oberyn called out Rhaegar Targaryen for the douchebag that he is.  He and Lyanna ran off together but he humiliated Elia in the process.  

Ouch.  Harsh Bunny is harsh. 

[Izzyboy]

 

I loved that Oberyn called out Rhaegar Targaryen for the douchebag that he is.  He and Lyanna ran off together but he humiliated Elia in the process.

Ouch.  Harsh Bunny is harsh.

This just reminds me of one of the features in the Blu Ray disks where various characters are talking about the history of Westeros, often the same event.  So each character is giving a different version/perspective of the same thing.

Forgot to mention that I'm so glad they changed actors for Daario Naharis.  I couldn't stand the actor that played him last season, I thought he was way too young and boyish to pull off the role.  I'm also glad that they've seemed to change Dany's reactions to him.  Last season she seemed almost like a teenager swooning whenever he came by.  This past episode she was a little more reluctant in showing affection and I think it works better for her character.

Also, they need to have Sandor say "Fuck the King" every. Single. Episode.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Izzyboy

[GreyBunny]

Maybe they were in love but they were incredibly selfish.  

After Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia at the tournament, he later dumped his wife and children in the dust, enraged the members of three Great Houses, and left a family to be worried sick thinking their girl was being raped and brutalized.  Two members of that family were tortured and murdered trying to find her and get her back.  

Instead of sending a message or being there to face the girl's family himself, Rhaegar hid himself in a tower and stayed there for most of the war like a chickenshit coward, leaving his wife and children in the "care" of a cruel and psychopathic king.  He only came out of hiding long enough to get his chest caved in by Robert.

Fuck Rhaegar.  Lyanna sucks too.  

Jon's the only thing I like about either one of them.

Edited April 8, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

Maybe they were in love but they were incredibly selfish.  

After Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia at the tournament, he later dumped his wife and children in the dust, enraged the members of three Great Houses, and left a family to be worried sick thinking their girl was being raped and brutalized.  Instead of sending a message or being there to face the girl's family himself, Rhaegar hid himself in a tower and stayed there for most of the war like a chickenshit coward, leaving his wife and children in the "care" of a cruel and psychopathic king.  He only came out of hiding long enough to get his chest caved in by Robert.

Fuck Rhaegar.  Lyanna sucks too.

I can honestly say I never thought of it this way.  Very good points.

[Joystickenvy]

This series definitely does not reward characters who make political blunders for the sake of "true love."

[ChillinLikeSerIlyn]

  Polliver thought the story was hilarious and Arya's picked his name (instead of torture guy, who she picked in the show).  Right?

Polliver stole Needle from her but Raff the Sweetling was the one who killed Lommy in the book. Polliver was at the Inn with The Tickler, and was killed by The Hound followed by Arya picking up Needle and brutally murdering The Tickler while saying his catchphrases. They sort of co-opted this scene with show-Polliver getting what he said parroted back to him.

[Independent George]

Forgot to mention that I'm so glad they changed actors for Daario Naharis. I couldn't stand the actor that played him last season, I thought he was way too young and boyish to pull off the role. I'm also glad that they've seemed to change Dany's reactions to him. Last season she seemed almost like a teenager swooning whenever he came by. This past episode she was a little more reluctant in showing affection and I think it works better for her character.

I agree with every single one of those points, but it just makes me laugh even harder because all of those things last season are actually much truer to the books than this season. It gives me hope that, for all the things that drive me nuts about D&D (*cough* Stannis! *cough*), they'll do all the things that GRRM's editor should have done with FFC/DWD.

And for the record, I'm 100% behind Grey Bunny regarding Rhaegar. I'd also say that many of the same points apply to Robb as well. Once you crown yourself, you lose the right to personal happiness. The King's life belongs to the Kingdom.

[jeansheridan]

After Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia at the tournament, he later dumped his wife and children in the dust, enraged the members of three Great Houses, and left a family to be worried sick thinking their girl was being raped and brutalized.  Instead of sending a message or being there to face the girl's family himself, Rhaegar hid himself in a tower and stayed there for most of the war like a chickenshit coward, leaving his wife and children in the "care" of a cruel and psychopathic king.  He only came out of hiding long enough to get his chest caved in by Robert.

 

Which book is this story in please?  His books are so damn long I sometimes skim some of the duller character chapters and I suspect I miss back story that way.  

Are there any dead characters from the books the show runners have not killed?  Robb's wife stays alive in the books (and seems to disappear).  I know all the deaths have major ramifications so they can't really decide to just let a popular character live like in some shows.   Shae is probably one character who could live without major plot changes, although I still think Dinklage would want that great moment.  Two major deaths in one scene?  Who could resist? The angst!  

Oh and the cannibal wildings.  I sort of like the reminder that the wildings aren't just rebellious loners/clans that have been exiled beyond the wall.  I can see Ygrette and even the red-headed dude eventually merging with Northern society once they settled in.  They aren't all that different from the Hill Clans really.  A bit thuggish/brutish.  But the Threnns  have an unsustainable lifestyle in a larger society.  Would you want to live next door to cannibals who might be considering your marbling potential?

[direpup]

Priceless - Joffrey (AKA the little shit) posing a la the wolf statue...then insulting daddy/uncle Jaime...he simply can't resist tormenting those he perceives as weak. Bring on the purple wedding.

Interesting to hear it mentioned that Jaime is 40...brought to mind last season, when Tywin told Cersei she is still young enough to have a child with Loras. 

Happy and semi-horrified to see Arya reunited with Needle. At least she rocks her new ride.

[yellowfred]

Which book is this story in please?  His books are so damn long I sometimes skim some of the duller character chapters and I suspect I miss back story that way.  

I don't think it was every laid out in its entirety in one book, though Ned's chapters in Game of Thrones have the basic outline.  Clash of Kings has Jaime telling Catelyn more about how Brandon and Rickard Stark died.  Selmy fills in some of the details for Dany in her chapters in Storm of Swords.  

Also, I don't remember Rhaegar hiding in a tower all that long.  He was in hiding when Brandon came to King's Landing to ask for Lyanna back, but I thought he actually led Targaryan forces during the rebellion.  He also at least stopped by King's Landing long enough to talk to Jaime about some vague plans he had and to ask him to keep his family safe.

Still, I also think it was nice to have Oberyn holding on to some resentment for Rhaegar.  I remember most of his comments in the books being focused on the Lannisters and the Mountain, since they're the ones who actually killed Elia and her children, but it makes sense that he'd also have a problem with Rhaegar for putting them all in that situation to begin with.

[GreyBunny]

I don't think it was every laid out in its entirety in one book, though Ned's chapters in Game of Thrones have the basic outline.  Clash of Kings has Jaime telling Catelyn more about how Brandon and Rickard Stark died.  Selmy fills in some of the details for Dany in her chapters in Storm of Swords.  

Also, I don't remember Rhaegar hiding in a tower all that long.  He was in hiding when Brandon came to King's Landing to ask for Lyanna back, but I thought he actually led Targaryan forces during the rebellion.  He also at least stopped by King's Landing long enough to talk to Jaime about some vague plans he had and to ask him to keep his family safe.

Still, I also think it was nice to have Oberyn holding on to some resentment for Rhaegar.  I remember most of his comments in the books being focused on the Lannisters and the Mountain, since they're the ones who actually killed Elia and her children, but it makes sense that he'd also have a problem with Rhaegar for putting them all in that situation to begin with.

Rhaegar managed to bother to show up for the Battle of the Trident where he was confronted by Robert.  Up until then his bannermen including Jon Connington and Randyll Tarly were the ones who were doing the actual work of leading his forces.

Edited April 8, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Andromeda]

I guess someone has to mention this. When the dragon flew away from Dany, her dress flapped a bit in the wind. I thought that was a cool, neat detail.

Oh, that was awesome!

[sev]

Marriage arrangement or not, Robert's interest over Lyanna always sounded very one directional to me. He talks like it was a great big love, but it's just his infatuation. But I don't like Robert, so obviously I see it as Lyanna running off with Rhaegar. One thing that GRRM does great is showing that history changes depending on who is telling it.

For the episode, I loved it, a solid start of season.

Had to a laugh at yet another brothel and bewbs exposition not further than 15 minutes into the season, but this one had a purpose and gets point for sexual fluidity. Besides Oberyn is cool - a shame we lost him and got stuck with relatively boring Dornish chapters in the books.

Dario: Time will tell, but for now, I still miss the oddball from the books; this one looks like a young Jorah.

Arya and The Hound: I wish they'll stretch it out a bit longer in the show - their time together in the book was too short, and I kind of resented Arya for letting him there to die.

[Featherhat]

I always feel sorry for Elia in the story of Lyanna/Rhaegar, whether it was an abduction and rape or running off together ( I favour the latter) but never Robert for some reason, which is mostly that I can't stand him either as a person or a King, especially a usurper who ignored most of his duties in favour of hunting, drinking and whoring.  

That said given Dornish culture its not entirely impossible that Elia didn't mind Rhaegar theoretically having another woman, just not how it went down. Thought that doesn't seem to be the way the show will play it. 

[Haleth]

Didn't Elia have health issues?  Not an excuse for Rhaegar to run off with another woman but perhaps the physical side of their marriage was over.  Rhaegar's mistake was falling in love rather than visiting the bordello.

I've seen a number of posts where people mention they thought the sword melted down at the beginning was Robb's.  So what did happen to Robb's sword?  Did the Frey's keep it or give it to Roose Bolton?  Or because it doesn't have a great lineage does it not matter?

[sev]

^ Robb's sword wasn't made of Valyrian steel.

I found they did a great job with the recap before the episode, showing the secondary character that were to resurface in this ep, and making it clear that Eddard was decapitated with his own sword - which I don't remember being explicitly mentioned in the show.

Edited April 8, 2014 by sev

[WalterWhiteWalker]

What was Cersei doing with ex-Maester Qyburn?  Something about her "lack of symptoms"?  The Unsullied have picked up on this as possibly having to do with her resolve not to marry Loras.  This is non-book, right?  Or is there something I'm forgetting?

[elzin]

I feel sorry for Elia too, but maybe she was like Stannis' wife when it came to Shadow Baby and Melisandre.  Maybe she didn't mind sharing her husband to fulfill some prophecy (as Rhaegar felt he was the prince who was promised).

[mac123x]

But the Threnns  have an unsustainable lifestyle in a larger society.  Would you want to live next door to cannibals who might be considering your marbling potential?

I thought that characterization was a blunder.  In the books, the Thenns actually resemble a minor Westerosi noble house, with a hereditary lord.  It’s one of the reasons Jon arranged a marriage between Alys Karstark and the Magnar of Thenn, because the Thenns could make the transition to the feudal system more easily than the other free-folk.

Maybe they’ll say the cannibalism is ceremonial; eat the bodies of their enemies killed in battle as some sort of ritual, but normally eat regular food.  If human flesh was their staple diet, I don’t see any of the other wildling tribes tolerating them.

Eating the dead has a practical use, considering what the White Walkers would otherwise do with corpses.  The Thenns are just being pragmatic; they have to burn the bodies anyway, might as well make a meal of it first.

That said given Dornish culture its not entirely impossible that Elia didn't mind Rhaegar theoretically having another woman, just not how it went down.

That’s a good point.  Book!Dany had a vision in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar and Elia with new-born Aegon.  Reggie said “the dragon has 3 heads”.  It’s possible that after Elia found out she couldn’t get pregnant again that she agreed, or even encouraged, Reggie’s plan to have the third “head” with Lyanna.

[Andeleisha]

 

Oh what does the blue rose mean?  

 

 

In the show's context, nothing. But in the books the blue rose was the favourite flower of Lyanna Stark, and it was also the flower that Dany saw in her vision in the House of the Undying (again, in the books. In the show they completely changed the House of the Undying scenes).

It's one of the many many hints at who Jon Snow's real mother is

This stuck out for me too. Because it's a TV show, they made a conscious choice to use a blue rose instead of some other flower. It's not like they don't know what the connotations are of the blue rose. Why have one in a scene when they know it will get the attention of book readers?

So are they trying to associate blue roses with Targaryens (instead of Lyanna) so that they can use blue roses to hint that Jon is a Targaryen? Are they giving us a hint that Daario is a secret Targaryen? (Please no.) 

[Boundary]

I loved that Oberyn called out Rhaegar Targaryen for the douchebag that he is.  He and Lyanna ran off together but he humiliated Elia in the process.  

I didn't detect any malice towards Rheagar as such, sarcasm perhaps. Rhaegar was stupid, even though he might have had perfectly valid reasons for his stupidity. Despite causing a war, I have always been intrigued about the role of House Dayne, which is why I found it interesting that they also picked this episode to name drop Arthur Dayne. let's not forget that Ashara was one of Elia's handmaidens and that Starfall is not far from the Tower of Joy. The TOJ is such a key moment, I feel, that it has to be revealed properly. We won't get a flashback and any heavy-handedness will not work, so I like that they dropping hints this way.

So are they trying to associate blue roses with Targaryens (instead of Lyanna) so that they can use blue roses to hint that Jon is a Targaryen? Are they giving us a hint that Daario is a secret Targaryen? (Please no.)

 

The blue rose goes hand in hand with what I've just said above. I came across this in another website. In Ned's dream, he found Lyanna dying with fever and clutching her blue roses. In this episode, Daario claims the dusk rose's tea cures fever. Surely there's a hint in there, no? I think the show will, at some point, have to make Lyanna's association with blue roses known, and when that happens tv show viewers' attention will be brought back to that scene. In perhaps a similar, but not exactly the same, way we link Lyanna's blue roses with Dany's HOTU vision. It would be daft to just claim Jon is a Targ without putting the hints and I for one am glad that they seem to have started.

[ellystar]

The blue rose goes hand in hand with what I've just said above. I came across this in another website. In Ned's dream, he found Lyanna dying with fever and clutching her blue roses. In this episode, Daario claims the dusk rose's tea cures fever. Surely there's a hint in there, no? I think the show will, at some point, have to make Lyanna's association with blue roses known, and when that happens tv show viewers' attention will be brought back to that scene. In perhaps a similar, but not exactly the same, way we link Lyanna's blue roses with Dany's HOTU vision. It would be daft to just claim Jon is a Targ without putting the hints and I for one am glad that they seem to have started.

I was thinking the same thing, but Lyanna liked the Blue Winter Rose, which are a pale frost blue (gotta love the Wiki of Ice and Fire). Daario's was more of a royal or bright blue. Maybe it's just a nod to his blue hair and beard in the books? But maybe the symbolism is there and they're just using blue roses in general.

Edited April 8, 2014 by ellystar

[ChillinLikeSerIlyn]

I thought that characterization was a blunder.  In the books, the Thenns actually resemble a minor Westerosi noble house, with a hereditary lord.  It’s one of the reasons Jon arranged a marriage between Alys Karstark and the Magnar of Thenn, because the Thenns could make the transition to the feudal system more easily than the other free-folk.

I have to imagine that the whole Alys Karstark plotline is going to be excised from the show, frankly I'd be surprised if we ever meet anyone with the name Karstark again. I think they had to make the Thenns cannibals to show some major differences between (some of) the Wildlings and the Westerosi. After all, are main Wildlings thus far are Ygritte and Tormund who are relatively relatable. They could always introduce another faction if they want to have the marriage alliance storyline.

Edited April 8, 2014 by ChillinLikeSerIlyn

[legxleg]

I'm really hoping that in the TV version of the purple wedding, Sansa will be more aware of what's going on. It really bugged me that she wound up being unwittingly used to kill Joffrey. At this point, I really want her to have a little more agency, and the show has been pretty good at fleshing out female characters I hadn't been particularly impressed by in the books (I'm looking at you, Margery Tyrell!). It wouldn't take much to make me happy; just a minute where Sansa realizes what's going on (maybe notices the missing jewel?) and chooses not to say anything. *fingers crossed*

[Boundary]

I was thinking the same thing, but Lyanna liked the Blue Winter Rose, which are a pale frost blue (gotta love the Wiki of Ice and Fire). Daario's was more of a royal or bright blue. Maybe it's just a nod to his blue hair and beard in the books? But maybe the symbolism is there and they're just using blue roses in general.

I like to think it's just the symbolism of blue roses in general (Dany has been wearing lots of blue for a while now but I digress). To be honest, we shouldn't really be spending so much time on the exact shade of blue, or on the roses in general (yeah right!). D&D knew that a blue rose, especially in the proximity either Jon or Dany would be like a lightning rod. I mean, c'mon are we supposed to ignore that? The effect was diluted a bit by having two other flowers in there (and that scene had other uses as well) but there was no way most keen book readers wouldn't take something significant from that scene.

[GreyBunny]

Elia and Oberyn were very close.  If she gave her blessing for Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna she probably would have let Oberyn know.  

As it was, Rhaegar passing by Elia and giving the crown of roses to Lyanna at the tournament in front of everyone was a total dick move.  If he was going to have some kind of affair with another woman for whatever reason he should have had the decency to not humiliate his wife in public.  

[CletusMusashi]

At least with the Thenns, we know what they eat. Most of the other wildlings, I'm a little confused about. I mean, it's not even winter yet, although, spoiler alert:

winter is coming

, and everything north of the wall is pretty much Narnia. I know Ygritt and Osha eat rabbits, but I have absolutely no idea what the rabbits eat. Snow, dirt, and the occasional frozen twig, I guess. The Thenns apparently realize that they are not living in anything resembling a sustainable ecosystem, and so they have decided to derive a significant percentage of their caloric intake from the one thing that they can probably count on there being a lot of: redshirts!

What I actually found most distracting about them was how cleanly shaven they were. I mean, those are some big, thick, bumpy, ritual scars they've got! You're really gonna shave over all that every day with a straight blade? I wonder if they have to spend a ridiculous amount of their before-battle time touching each other up and primping like a bunch of cannibal cave fops. "I don't look stubbly, do I?" "Oh, wait, just one... there, got it!" "All smooth?" "Oh, fabulously! Do me now!"

Except they're still doing all this dialog in their regular tough guy voices,while eating suspiciously large drumsticks.

ETA: I just realized I posted in the book spoilers thread! Getting the hell out of here before I sober up and actually understand any of the posts above me! Yikes.

Edited April 9, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[plurie]

 

I'm disappointed that the showrunners have eliminated Sansa's part in plotting her own escape.

I think it's premature to come to that conclusion. There's still time in the next episode for this to happen.

I think it's more likely that Bran will somehow be involved in the warg elements of his siblings' storylines than that the show will suddenly decree that the thing it always said was unique to Bran is actually shared by his whole family, who will end up employing it more usefully than he does. I think it's more likely that Bran will somehow be involved in the warg elements of his siblings' storylines than that the show will suddenly decree that the thing it always said was unique to Bran is actually shared by his whole family, who will end up employing it more usefully than he does.

 

Have they said that warging was unique to Bran? Bran is the BEST warg (he can warg Hodor!), but clearly there are other wargs (including Orrel).

I thought it was the greenseeing that was unique to Bran. Jojen said something like this about Bran's "dreams" in the show. Jojen has some of this ability, too, but Bran is WAY stronger.

[sev]

I resent the missing of Thormund's big member jokes, he looked so grim in this episode.

[Hanahope]

I've seen a number of posts where people mention they thought the sword melted down at the beginning was Robb's.  So what did happen to Robb's sword?  Did the Frey's keep it or give it to Roose Bolton?  Or because it doesn't have a great lineage does it not matter?

Robb's sword wasn't made of Valyrian steel.

Didn't the Lannisters return Ned's sword to Robb with his body, so Robb was using Ned's Valyrian steel sword, Ice, which the Lannisters 'regained' after the Red Wedding?

I'm really hoping that in the TV version of the purple wedding, Sansa will be more aware of what's going on. It really bugged me that she wound up being unwittingly used to kill Joffrey.

 

I'm pretty sure Sansa wouldn't mind at all finding out that she's part of a Joffrey assassination.  Frankly, I think the only reason she wasn't clued into the whole plot was to protect her and the actual plotters from having their identity revealed.

[cosmic1]

I know in the book, whenever Arya was close to Nymeria's territory, she would have dreams where she was in Nymeria's body, so she has been established as a warg also.  I do not remember if they showed anything like this in the show - I think I vaguely recall something in S1 like that.  I think that Nymeria has turned into a completely feral killer too.  It would be interesting if they touched on this in the show.  Speaking of direwolves, where the heck is Ghost?

[sev]

^ Last I recall, Ghost parted ways with Jon just before his first encounter with Igritt. The wolf must therefore still be on the north side of the wall. Don't remember seeing him with the crows at the time of the Craster massacre, either.

[MrWhyt]

 

Didn't the Lannisters return Ned's sword to Robb with his body, so Robb was using Ned's Valyrian steel sword, Ice, which the Lannisters 'regained' after the Red Wedding?

No, I don't remember if they mentioned in the series but in the books the return of Ice was one of the demands the Starks gave the Lannisters, they never complied.

[joliefaire]

It's always fun to see how quick, and how clever, GoT fans are.  Lots of funny Twitter comments about the Hound and the chickens.  Someone pointed out that if Sandor were a Colonel, his chicken would be...(fill in the blank)

And then, immediately, this..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/joliefaire/colonelsandor.jpg

Cracked me up.  Why don't I ever think of stuff like this?  :P