S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

This, x 1 million. Despite his rep as a fighter, Loras is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He should have calmly said re birthmark "...and my squire would know that."  But I also don't understand how Olyvar went from being an actual squire (we saw him in KL on the practice grounds) to working as a brothel manager. I would assume that to be a squire in the first place, he would have had to have SOME upper-class family background, but that family also would not want him working in a brothel...

 

From what I can glean, Olyvar was always in Litterfinger's employ probably as a prostitute. He was sent to "squire" for Loras back in season 3 in order to overhear gossip--which is how LF found out about the plan to marry Loras off to Sansa, which he then told the Lannisters about. We learn of this plot in a scene where Olyvar and LF are talking about it, at which point you know he was at least spying for LF (but not necessarily a prostitute himself). After that we saw Olyvar back working at the brothel in S4, so I assumed he had always been a prostitute and had only been "squiring" because LF sent him to spy, and he had the appropriate "skills" to gain Loras' confidence. How he arranged for him to be a squire I don't know, maybe it was a temporary fill-in, but I imagine LF has his ways of pulling strings.

[Lady S.]

This, x 1 million. Despite his rep as a fighter, Loras is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He should have calmly said re birthmark "...and my squire would know that."  But I also don't understand how Olyvar went from being an actual squire (we saw him in KL on the practice grounds) to working as a brothel manager. I would assume that to be a squire in the first place, he would have had to have SOME upper-class family background, but that family also would not want him working in a brothel...

Yeah, a smarter liar probably would have just said his squire helped him bathe, but Loras is the same guy who couldn't even feign interest in Sansa and had to grit his teeth to beg Joff to take Marg as bride in 2.10, calm and smooth operating with people other than Renly has never been his strong suit and that's probably his most consistent character trait, other than being gay. So lunging at Olyvar screaming felt much more in-character for him, and for me it was the only good part of that unpleasantness since it was the first time the Knight of Flowers got to actually do something since fighting in Renly's armor back in Blackwater. I think LF is supposed to have gotten Olyvar a gig squiring at court just for spying purposes, because somehow no one ever questions Littlefinger when he's plotting.

 

In any case, I'm pretty sure she's regretting Tyrion so, so much. The way she praised him by mentioning that Lord Tyrion was always  very nice and gentle with her seems to suggest it.

Regretting what? She didn't have much choice about leaving Tyrion, and they were actually getting along just fine in their garden stroll before the news of the RW, then they made progress at the Purple Wedding when she allowed him to comfort her there and then fetched Joff's goblet to lessen Tyrion's humiliation. But, yes, it's good to have confirmation she thought of him as kind, I had already assumed her telling the Lords and Lady of the Vale that Baelish was her only friend in King's Landing was part of the act there.

 

It makes a lot of sense in a way that Jorah's response to hearing of his father's murder is to say they should keep moving to Meereen, now that he knows he's lost the chance to ever be forgiven by his father, it would be even more important to have Dany forgive him. At least he doesn't have to know that the Old Bear's skull was made into a drinking cup after the mutiny.

 

I wonder if Ramsay, knowing his conception, thinks he's honoring family traditions by forcing himself on Sansa just as he was carrying on the Bolton legacy by flaying people. Anyway, Alyssa Rosenberg of the Washington Post had an interesting take on the way the scene was handled:

 

 

When it became clear that “Game of Thrones” was going to marry the real Sansa to Ramsay, I wrote that I wasn’t sure I could bear to watch this scene play out with a character we’d come to know so well; the heightened emotional pain might have simply been too much. As I watched tonight, I hoped Stannis Baratheon (Stephen Dillane) would arrive first and launch his attack on Winterfell. Maybe we’d be spared the sight of a young woman’s suffering by the sight of grown men turning each other into meat. This is the terrible calculation that “Game of Thrones” has trained us to make. And, as has been the case so many other times, the math turned out against my small and flickering hopes.

But if this scene had to exist, the show’s version of it, written by Bryan Cogman, and shot sensitively and with intelligence by Jeremy Podeswa, managed to maintain a fine balance, employing a dignity and care for the experiences of victims that “Game of Thrones” has not always demonstrated. Sansa is raped on her wedding night, but “Game of Thrones” spares her the experience of being forced to have sexual contact with two men, instead of one. Other than a shot of Ramsay ripping Sansa’s dress open, we don’t see her body during the rape: just her face, and then Theon’s contracting in agony and fear and horrible sympathy. What Ramsay is doing to Sansa doesn’t matter in the slightest. What she and Theon–and yes, there are two victims, though of very different crimes, in this scene–feel about what’s happening is what’s important. The camera refuses to join in her victimization, forcing us to focus instead on the impact of Ramsay’s latest despicable predations.

And Sansa’s rape is a powerful, dreadful scene because it comes at an episode that is full of small kindnesses and emotional cruelties that cut deeper than knives or whips. It’s no mistake that this episode begins with Arya Stark tenderly washing a body in the House of Black and White, and doesn’t quite end with the scene of Myranda (Charlotte Hope) washing Sansa’s hair with the same care, but with an added dose of malice. Arya is learning compassion towards the dead and dying at a moment when Sansa is learning to keep a part of herself protected and hidden. It’s the only way she won’t end up another body on another, far colder slab than the one her sister tends in Braavos.

....And there’s quiet dignity even in the middle of the farce that is Sansa’s wedding. “Theon, of house Greyjoy,” Theon announces himself when he’s asked who gives Sansa in marriage. “Who was…who was her father’s ward.” That quiet admission of who he is, and by extension, what he did in conquering Winterfell, is a far more meaningful apology than the one Ramsay wrested from him last episode, using the words as a weapon against Sansa even as he dressed the scene up as a gross parody of reconciliation.

 

(The full review has slight book references so that's why I quoted and edited instead of just linking.)

 

I hate that this happened, would've preferred Sansa just having her screentime cut like Bran, and can only pray that Rams ends up as the guest of honor at Mel and Stan's next BBQ, but I will concede that having Ramsay rape a character who matters feels less cheap than having him hunt a girl no one even knew the name of and flay non-entities offscreen, so the real marker of the scene's offensiveness is how the impact on Sansa is shown going forward. Which I don't really have high hopes for, but at least this time the showrunners and actors were all agreed they were shooting a rape scene. And honestly, I was expecting even worse from the hints Alfie and Iwan have been dropping in interviews, I thought the whole focus would be on Theon's blubbering face, but there was a much bigger zoom-in on Sansa's and more time spent on her before the camera cut to Theon, so it felt like the purpose of that cut was just to avoid showing Sansa in full graphic detail. Sophie was 18 by the time this was shot but tptb hired her at the age of 12/13 and have watched her grow up even more closely than we have, so I'm sure that was a major contributing factor here. With any other actress, they'd probably have gone for full-on tasteless boob-jiggling as happened at Craster's last season.

[Andromeda]

From what I can glean, Olyvar was always in Litterfinger's employ probably as a prostitute. He was sent to "squire" for Loras back in season 3 in order to overhear gossip--which is how LF found out about the plan to marry Loras off to Sansa, which he then told the Lannisters about. We learn of this plot in a scene where Olyvar and LF are talking about it, at which point you know he was at least spying for LF (but not necessarily a prostitute himself). After that we saw Olyvar back working at the brothel in S4, so I assumed he had always been a prostitute and had only been "squiring" because LF sent him to spy, and he had the appropriate "skills" to gain Loras' confidence. How he arranged for him to be a squire I don't know, maybe it was a temporary fill-in, but I imagine LF has his ways of pulling strings.

Thank you, Radiant. I remembered some vague underhanded spying stuff on Olyvar's part, a scene with him in bed with Loras then tattling, but couldn't recall the specifics. This helps a lot.

[peggy06]

Couple of late thoughts: 

 

Despite being touted as a formidable adversary, Lady Olenna seemed pretty impotent here. She got nothing out of her meeting with Cersei and wasn't any use at all in the pre-trial trial. It wasn't much of a stretch from High Sparrow's line of questioning that Margaery and Loras were being set up. I hope Olenna has something better on offer in the next episode, or Cersei wins big. And I loathe Cersei.

 

Roose Bolton is a horrible person, but what a wonderful voice! 

[HumblePi]

I hate that this happened, would've preferred Sansa just having her screentime cut like Bran, and can only pray that Rams ends up as the guest of honor at Mel and Stan's next BBQ, but I will concede that having Ramsay rape a character who matters feels less cheap than having him hunt a girl no one even knew the name of and flay non-entities offscreen, so the real marker of the scene's offensiveness is how the impact on Sansa is shown going forward. Which I don't really have high hopes for, but at least this time the showrunners and actors were all agreed they were shooting a rape scene. And honestly, I was expecting even worse from the hints Alfie and Iwan have been dropping in interviews, I thought the whole focus would be on Theon's blubbering face, but there was a much bigger zoom-in on Sansa's and more time spent on her before the camera cut to Theon, so it felt like the purpose of that cut was just to avoid showing Sansa in full graphic detail. Sophie was 18 by the time this was shot but tptb hired her at the age of 12/13 and have watched her grow up even more closely than we have, so I'm sure that was a major contributing factor here. With any other actress, they'd probably have gone for full-on tasteless boob-jiggling as happened at Craster's last season.

I think the rape scene of Sansa was absolutely essential to the formation of the new and better Sansa Stark. No longer the shy, reticent and naive girl, Sansa is now a hardened-to-the-world woman. It's only through this newly found identity will she be able to proceed with what will possibly be the undoing of Ramsey and Roose Bolton.

[wayne67]

Despite being touted as a formidable adversary, Lady Olenna seemed pretty impotent here. She got nothing out of her meeting with Cersei and wasn't any use at all in the pre-trial trial. It wasn't much of a stretch from High Sparrow's line of questioning that Margaery and Loras were being set up. I hope Olenna has something better on offer in the next episode, or Cersei wins big. And I loathe Cersei.

 

The problem with Cersei is that she think she's smart but she's reckless and ignores the flow on consequences of her actions.

 

There is no upside to Cersei's petty revenge. If she gets Margery killed, Tommen looks like even more of a wimp and opens up the kingdom to further insurrection and external threats eg Littlefinger and if Loras dies she will have made a powerful enemy in the Tyrells who are RICH and LIKED against her armies which have suffered from years of fighting and probably won't be getting paid from the Iron Bank for much longer since they're also backing Stannis.

 

Olenna can't attack Cersei directly because she's technically ruling at the moment through Tommen. However Olenna doesn't fight directly, she uses proxies to disguise her actions eg Joffrey's poisoning to achieve her objectives. I imagine that conversation was only the opening gambit for Olenna appealing to Cersei's reason, which failed because Cersei isn't thinking rationally of consequences.

 

 

I imagine Olenna is going to back littleFinger in whatever long term plans he has or will simply bribe a guard to free the captives and will march home with her relatives and ditch Kings landing to it's rioting. Then again with this show, all the Tyrells may die except for Granny Thorns and she'll plot and scheme and bring Westeros to its knees as retribution.

[NoWillToResist]

Sansa's off-screen cries will haunt me for a long time. *shudder*

 

I simply cannot take that trial seriously. "This dude says you were fucking. Well, that's all the evidence we need! Arrest him!" Like, seriously?

 

I need Olenna to go 2 for 2 on the Lannisters...

[Constantinople]

I simply cannot take that trial seriously. "This dude says you were fucking. Well, that's all the evidence we need! Arrest him!" Like, seriously?

 

Previous legal proceedings in Game of Thrones haven't led me to hold a high opinion of the Seven Kingdoms' judicial system.

[Knuckles]

Littlefinger is in town, I expect Olenna to consult with her fellow plotter. Cutting off the Tyrell food supply to King's Landing should set off food riots again...undermining Lannister control and creating the chaos that Baelish relishes. And without food, the Sparrows have little to offer the folks in Flea Bottom. What does Olenna want more, Margery on the Iron Throne, or her two grandchildren alive and safe in Highgarden? It is not clear on the show where the Tyrell army is at the moment, and I think that the formidable Randall Tarly is in charge, so she has that as a backup. As for the Lannister army, as noted by another poster, without money, it is not clear how effective this army is...or who is in charge of it. Kevin Lannister has gone back to Casterly Rock and Jamie is in Dorne. The show, excepting Stannis and his Golden Company has abandoned the military aspect of the war, except by mentioning that the Vale has a large, well-fed and untested army under the nominal command of Baelish.

[Mackey]

I thought that Ramciopath made Theon watch to torture him about what he could no longer do, rather than to make him suffer about Sansa's suffering. Similarly, I'm not completely convinced that Theon was so upset about Sansa's pain. From my watching, that kind of sex seems to be the norm in this world. I'd think Theon, easy killer of young farm boys, probably approached a few women a bit roughly, himself. Maybe, Theon was mourning for all he'd lost.

[CletusMusashi]

How long has the myth about dwarf cocks been around? A few episodes ago, nobody was trying to abduct Tyrion for an impromptu over-bris. They just wanted to rub his head. "Ees good luck to rub a dwarf's head!" Only then did Tyrion suggest that it was even better luck to suck one's cock. What did the rumor mill do to that joke? Did Tyrion himself accidentally create the mass-market for medicinal minibrats? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Roose Bolton is a horrible person, but what a wonderful voice!

I had the same thought during the wedding scene. Maybe I was trying to distract myself from thinking about the wedding night.

[Lady S.]

Sansa's off-screen cries will haunt me for a long time. *shudder*

 

I simply cannot take that trial seriously. "This dude says you were fucking. Well, that's all the evidence we need! Arrest him!" Like, seriously?

 

I need Olenna to go 2 for 2 on the Lannisters...

Whoa, is this the first appearance you've made this season?

 

 

I thought that Ramciopath made Theon watch to torture him about what he could no longer do, rather than to make him suffer about Sansa's suffering. Similarly, I'm not completely convinced that Theon was so upset about Sansa's pain. From my watching, that kind of sex seems to be the norm in this world. I'd think Theon, easy killer of young farm boys, probably approached a few women a bit roughly, himself. Maybe, Theon was mourning for all he'd lost.

I'm sure that's what Ramsay was thinking but I don't think that's what Theon's tears were really about. Can't a guy be a sexist prick without feeling that way toward all women? Plenty of date rapists probably love their mothers and respect their friends' little sisters. He did know Sansa since she was about 3/4, and I think there's a difference between Theon's selfishness with women back when he was whole and Ramsay's sadism. I'm sure most beddings after arranged marriages are awkward and unpleasant for the bride, but I doubt every husband wants to cause pain in the deflowering and gets off because of that more than the actual sex. Hell, during the RW Robb Stark was laughing as the bride and groom were led off to the honeymoon suite, Talisa noticed that Roslin Frey looked nervous and he said it was a normal thing. But Ramsay is not a normal horndog like Lord Floppy Fish Tully, he's a serial killer who hunts his mistresses for sport after they bore him and skins people to death for his own amusement. But because consummation is a standard part of weddings, I'm not sure what anyone thinks Sansa could have done on the wedding night to avoid being hurt since Ramsay was technically within his husbandly rights and she would have been raised to see being deflowered by a near-stranger as her duty as it was her mother's. As long as she has no outward bruises or scars visible when clothed she'd be considered unhurt since no one is going to be doing a pelvic exam to check how rough Ramsay got.

[terrymct]

I've been thinking about poor old Sansa, Westeros' professional victim.   I still think that this is the plot line where that finally changes.   Little finger told her to gain control over Ramsay.  How does George RR Martin usually have women gain control over men?  Via sex.   Think of Dany and Drogo, how their marriage started out.  Dany was a victim, until she started using the situation to her advantage.  I see the Sansa-Ramsay marriage going one of two ways in the short term.  Either Theon will finally breakthrough his conditioning and do something to defend or protect Sansa, or Sansa will let Ramsay do as he may while somehow taking control.  Maybe a little of both.  Someone needs to kill Ramsay soon.   It can't be Sansa unless it happens while someone such as Stannis is attacking Winterfell.  Otherwise, she'd face severe consequences from his father.   Theon could kill Ramsay, then be killed himself or sit in a cell until Stannis rides in.   I'm kind of hoping that's the redemption of Theon, that he kills Ramsay to protect or save Sansa.   The last option is the least satisfying, Ramsay is killed or escapes during Stannis' attack on Winterfell.  I hope he doesn't escape to get parked as a character until the writers need a psychopath again.

[Constantinople]

Yes I realize that, but it was adultery (as she was married) and with the Queen to boot. Lancel seemed to think it was worth mentioning as one of his sins, so I took it to mean the Faith would not approve. And he's a direct witness!

 

Was it adultery?

 

I believe the first time we see Lancel in Cersei's bed is Fire and Blood, Season 1, Episode 10.  Robert died in You Win or You Die, Episode 7.  Any sex Cersei had with Lancel after Robert's death wouldn't have been adultery since Cersei was no longer married to Robert.

 

Cersei and Lancel could have started before Robert's death, but I doubt Cersei would do that while Jaime was still available.  There wasn't much time between Jaime fleeing King's Landing after attacking Ned at the the end of The Wolf and The Lion, Episode 5, and Robert going hunting with Lancel in tow during A Golden Crown, Episode 6.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I believe the first time we see Lancel in Cersei's bed is Fire and Blood, Season 1, Episode 10.  Robert died in You Win or You Die, Episode 7.  Any sex Cersei had with Lancel after Robert's death wouldn't have been adultery since Cersei was no longer married to Robert.

 

Cersei and Lancel could have started before Robert's death, but I doubt Cersei would do that while Jaime was still available.  There wasn't much time between Jaime fleeing King's Landing after attacking Ned at the the end of The Wolf and The Lion, Episode 5, and Robert going hunting with Lancel in tow during A Golden Crown, Episode 6.

 

Ahh good point! That may be why he didn't use the term adultery. But yeah, we can't be totally sure it began after the King died, but most likely you're right and it was his "reward" after the fact. Well, it's still "fornication" I suppose.

[paigow]

Are you sure this is a club and not a Westerosi rap song? They only have like 4 songs so far, they could do with another one.

"I hate Cersei Lannister" club membership is also increasing ( Much like "I hate Rachel Green" club with Loras doing his best Brad Pitt impression.)

[paigow]

Throw Stannis and Jaquen into the mix and you would have Stannis correcting people's not entirely accurate statements of their titles/relationships and Jaquen giving them a quick whip for it.

Stannis would also be enraged by the pervasive lack of pronouns used by faceless men.....

[JTMacc99]

Previous legal proceedings in Game of Thrones haven't led me to hold a high opinion of the Seven Kingdoms' judicial system.

Heh. And now toss in the religious fanatics running the trial. "We, umm, I mean god makes the rules."

[Mz Anthrope]

 

Olenna can't attack Cersei directly because she's technically ruling at the moment through Tommen. However Olenna doesn't fight directly, she uses proxies to disguise her actions eg Joffrey's poisoning to achieve her objectives. I imagine that conversation was only the opening gambit for Olenna appealing to Cersei's reason, which failed because Cersei isn't thinking rationally of consequences.

How I would *love* to  see Cersei captive to Olenna and Olenna get very close to Cersei's face and say, "It was me, you ignorant twat, who killed your boy...  and I wasn't the only one who enjoyed watching him die!"  

 

And with regards to the Sparrow's and their high morality, wouldn't Lancel have admitted, in his confessions/coming clean, to have killed the King per Cersei's orders?  I am wondering if that's ever going to come into play and snag her.  I doubt it given she's the Queen Mother, but... 

[NoWillToResist]

I thought that Ramciopath made Theon watch to torture him about what he could no longer do, rather than to make him suffer about Sansa's suffering. Similarly, I'm not completely convinced that Theon was so upset about Sansa's pain. From my watching, that kind of sex seems to be the norm in this world. I'd think Theon, easy killer of young farm boys, probably approached a few women a bit roughly, himself. Maybe, Theon was mourning for all he'd lost.

 

I didn't get the sense that Ramsey wanted to mock Theon's inability to have intercourse. To me, that message would be better delivered if Theon were forced to watch mutually ENJOYABLE sex, not sex where the woman was (A) not interested, (B) on unwanted display, and ( C) crying in pain/dismay/shame, Theon is many things, but  I don't recall him being the type to get off on rape... 

 

I feel that they've shown enough to suggest that Theon has remorse. Also, I don't think his prior beef was with Sansa (or Arya) anyway. Sansa is an innocent and has basically been handed over to a violent sociopath. As if that's not bad enough, and as if Sansa and Theon haven't suffered enough, Theon has to watch this innocent girl  - with whom he grew up - be humiliated and raped? That's traumatic for the both of them, and doubly satisfying for a sick fuck like Ramsey.

 

While I was horrified by the scene and felt awful for Sansa, I have to remember that, barring having a witness, that's probably what most wedding nights were like for women (no foreplay or care) considering how few marriages were love matches.

 

Whoa, is this the first appearance you've made this season?

 

Heh. Yeah. I've been watching, but honestly nothing has really happened this season to inspire a reaction from me until this ep. Granted this ep inspired negative emotions but I'm sure TPTB don't mind since apathy is the true enemy. It's curious...I don't give a fuck about Dany's story or Jon's or Arya's. Those characters have done fuck all this season of interest, IMO. And until tonight, I didn't give much of a shit about Sansa's story either. Hopefully now that we're at the midway point, things might actually start to happen? I mean, how long does it take for an unstoppable army of dead people to reach the fucking wall anyway? I keep hearing "winter is coming" and "winter is almost upon us" but I've not seen anything to support that. Are they waiting for the finale to pick up that little plot thread?

 

How I would *love* to  see Cersei captive to Olenna and Olenna get very close to Cersei's face and say, "It was me, you ignorant twat, who killed your boy...  and I wasn't the only one who enjoyed watching him die!"  

 

And with regards to the Sparrow's and their high morality, wouldn't Lancel have admitted, in his confessions/coming clean, to have killed the King per Cersei's orders?  I am wondering if that's ever going to come into play and snag her.  I doubt it given she's the Queen Mother, but... 

 

Yeah, I'm sure Cersei won't give a shit that she was wrong about Tyrion killing Joffrey, but I do want her to know that Olenna did it. Preferably while choking to death on the poison Olenna just gave her. Ahem. Also, I can't recall...why exactly is it that Cersei has it in for Sansa? Is she just guilty by association with Tyrion even though she didn't even want to marry the guy? I just can't remember why Cersei hates Sansa.

 

Well, if the word of a nobody squire is enough to jail the Queen, then the word of Loras should be enough to jail the Queen mother. Fuck it, let's put all the royals in prison! Viva la revolution! Or something...

Edited May 20, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[annsterg]

You know, I've never been entirely clear as to whether Cersei REALLY believed that Tyrion killed Joffrey.

 

If she did, she's an idiot....possible. Possible too that she let her hatred of Tyrion blind her.

 

If she did NOT, but used the opening to rid herself of the hated dwarf brother...then doesn't she care about who REALLY was responsible?

[Unknown poster]

Regarding Olyvar: I'm pretty sure he was a Baelish employee, sent to cozy up to Loras, and report back any information that could be useful. He was the one who informed Littlefinger about the Tyrell's plan to marry Sabsa to Loras, wasn't he? I think at the time of their first meeting, he WAS serving as something of a squire, or assistant, while Loras was in the practice yard. I'm guessing he doesn't have much actual experience with that job, but was placed there because it would be the logical way to make Loras' aquaintance.

[RedheadZombie]

I watched the episode again, and I think I figured out what's wrong in Dorne - at least for me.  Pedro Pascal played Oberyn so similar to Inigo Montoya, it couldn't possibly be accidental.  Pascal managed to play the part without crossing into satire.  This past episode though .......  We have Inigo's three daughters, who though filled with vengeance, are rather incompetent at playing grown ups.  Then there's Buttercup and Westley's dim-witted daughter Myrcella.  From her reaction to seeing Jaime (lifting her skirts up to her ears as she walks to him), to when Bronn knocked out Trystane (oh Trystane, my true love!), to her reaction to being grabbed by the sand snake (a girlish squeal of excitement) - all pure camp.

 

Then back in KL, we have the Mountain, who's only mostly dead, and the creepy maester playing the part of Miracle Max, and the comparisons can go on and on.

 

 

[NoWillToResist]

Dorne's royal palace needs to beef up security. A friggin' caravan of travelers wandered through (with Jaime and Bronn at the end of the line), and three chicks with weapons waltzed into the palace gardens where the prince (?) and his betrothed were strolling. They need to tighten that shit up.

 

I'm curious to witness the conversation between Martell and Jaime. I mean, Mycella was about to be abducted, so doesn't that kind of strengthen Jaime's position to "rescue" her and bring her home? She was in danger while within the grounds of the royal palace!

[Calamity Jane]

I watched the episode again, and I think I figured out what's wrong in Dorne - at least for me.  Pedro Pascal played Oberyn so similar to Inigo Montoya, it couldn't possibly be accidental.  Pascal managed to play the part without crossing into satire.  This past episode though .......  We have Inigo's three daughters, who though filled with vengeance, are rather incompetent at playing grown ups.  Then there's Buttercup and Westley's dim-witted daughter Myrcella.  From her reaction to seeing Jaime (lifting her skirts up to her ears as she walks to him), to when Bronn knocked out Trystane (oh Trystane, my true love!), to her reaction to being grabbed by the sand snake (a girlish squeal of excitement) - all pure camp.

 

Then back in KL, we have the Mountain, who's only mostly dead, and the creepy maester playing the part of Miracle Max, and the comparisons can go on and on.

Yes, the comparisons leap to mind, don't they?  Especially Oberyn's duel with the Mountain - all I could hear was, "Hello!  You keeled my fathair!  Prepare to die!"

[Happytobehere]

Well, at least they kept the "wedding night" scene with Sansa/Ramsay off camera and focused on Theon's face, but that was not fun to watch/hear.  

 

The problem with doing that is that it makes Sansa's rape be about Theon and his reactions/feelings. This show has been criticized a lot for its treatment of women, but this scene really comes across as the total male perspective. They are clearly using what happened to Sansa as a spring board for the return of Theon, which means it is not about Sansa or her agency, she has been reduced to a prop whose body and emotional trauma are simply there to further the storyline of not just two men, but arguably two awful men, cause let's not forget who Theon is and the ish he has done, torture victim status not withstanding.

[dramachick]

The problem with doing that is that it makes Sansa's rape be about Theon and his reactions/feelings. This show has been criticized a lot for its treatment of women, but this scene really comes across as the total male perspective. They are clearly using what happened to Sansa as a spring board for the return of Theon, which means it is not about Sansa or her agency, she has been reduced to a prop whose body and emotional trauma are simply there to further the storyline of not just two men, but arguably two awful men, cause let's not forget who Theon is and the ish he has done, torture victim status not withstanding.

I thought the scene was about both of them. Since last season, the story at Winterfell has been about Theon and the consequences suffered by everyone as a result of his betrayal. Sansa is now a part of that misery, and she and Theon are in the same dangerous boat: the SS Ramsey.

 

It'll be interesting to see if each of them provides the support the other one needs in order to destroy or escape from the Boltons.

[wayne67]

Hopefully now that we're at the midway point, things might actually start to happen? I mean, how long does it take for an unstoppable army of dead people to reach the fucking wall anyway? I keep hearing "winter is coming" and "winter is almost upon us" but I've not seen anything to support that. Are they waiting for the finale to pick up that little plot thread?

 

Yeah I'm kind of sick of waiting for the checkov zombies introduced in the first episode of season 1 to DO SOMETHING. Its been like 5 years ... I'm reminded of that old joke when I think about the Stark motto "Winter is coming" that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Mya Stone]

I had the same thought during the wedding scene. Maybe I was trying to distract myself from thinking about the wedding night.

 

I was watching the behind the episode, or another behind the scenes short on HBO on demand, and couldn't stop gawking when they showed the dinner scene. Michael, Iwan, and Sophie all broke character and ended up in fits of laugher, and Sophie couldn't stop raving about how Michael (Roose) is always making her laugh. There was a huge disconnect for me, hahaha. 

[myname2use4now]

Question time ~ What's the consensus on how Littlefinger really feels about Sansa? Is she just a pawn to him or does he actually see her as the younger version of her mother whom he once loved? I guess I'm just trying to gauge what his reaction will be when he sees Sansa again. Frankly, I was kinda of liking it when she took on the role of the student to his teacher, even if it was more of a Stockholm Syndrome type thingy. I'd be interested to hear other opinions.

[izabella]

I absolutely think LF is using Sansa because he uses everyone.  I think he does feel some affection for her because of her mother, and Sansa is very attractive.  He probably gets some satisfaction at having Catlyn's daughter turning to him for "help".  But I don't think he'll ever love anyone like he loved Catlyn - he'd never let himself.  He's still very hurt and bitter that he never got to have the love of his life.  He hasn't and won't be putting Sansa on any pedestals like he did her mother.

Edited May 21, 2015 by izabella

[Ambrosefolly]

I will go further to say he never loved Catelyn because he can never love anyone and only sees people as a means to an end that can be discarded when he has no use for them. I think he has as much affection for Sansa as he did for Catelyn because Sansa looks and behaves much like her mother as a young woman and it is the closest thing towards love  that he will have to just about anyone. Like with Tyrion, he isn't intending for Ramsay to have Sansa for long and I think part of his ladder is to have Sansa as his wife. 

[DrSpaceman]

Question time ~ What's the consensus on how Littlefinger really feels about Sansa? Is she just a pawn to him or does he actually see her as the younger version of her mother whom he once loved? I guess I'm just trying to gauge what his reaction will be when he sees Sansa again. Frankly, I was kinda of liking it when she took on the role of the student to his teacher, even if it was more of a Stockholm Syndrome type thingy. I'd be interested to hear other opinions.

Mostly he sees her as a pawn I think, though I am sure there is some affection there due to who her mother is

In general LF is not loyal to anyone though. He will use or step on anyone to help further his own interests.

I thought the scene was about both of them. Since last season, the story at Winterfell has been about Theon and the consequences suffered by everyone as a result of his betrayal. Sansa is now a part of that misery, and she and Theon are in the same dangerous boat: the SS Ramsey.

 

It'll be interesting to see if each of them provides the support the other one needs in order to destroy or escape from the Boltons.

Yes I agree it was about both and them. And they just didn't leave out Sansa. They showed her "before" picture, which was disturbing enough. I just can't imagine forcing the actress to go through with an actual physical scene of what Ramsay likely did to her and I certainly don't need to see it.

[bluvelvet]

Here is something I don't understand, Roose is just as sadistic as his psycho son, yet his wife seems to be generally happy. I don't think he mistreats her so why doesn't Ramsey follow his example? Maybe he needs to have a talk with Ramsey.

[DrSpaceman]

Here is something I don't understand, Roose is just as sadistic as his psycho son, yet his wife seems to be generally happy. I don't think he mistreats her so why doesn't Ramsey follow his example? Maybe he needs to have a talk with Ramsey.

Those darn kids of his era, they just don't know how to properly treat their wives sadistically anymore!!

[Ambrosefolly]

To be fair Walder Frey is Walda's grandfather. With that family, she is probably used to it. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

One thing I caught; Doran is watching Trystane and Myrcella walking in the garden. He says something to the effect of "A Lannister and a Martell. What a combination."  So they aren't even bothering to call Myrcella a Baratheon, huh? Worst kept secret ever!

[JustaPerson]

Now that Sansa and Ramsey are officially married, can she and that old lady start gradually poisoning his drinks, Notorious style? Maybe his food too to be safe

[terrymct]

Here is something I don't understand, Roose is just as sadistic as his psycho son, yet his wife seems to be generally happy. I don't think he mistreats her so why doesn't Ramsey follow his example? Maybe he needs to have a talk with Ramsey.

 

Remember that her father is Walder Frey.  Her idea of how a man should treat a women was formed by watching him.   In other words, the bar is very very low.

 

On another subject, those Sand Snakes were really disappointing.  Others have pointed out how frickin contrived it was to have them show up at exactly the same time as Jamie and Bronn.  It was also contrived to have them all essentially fighting Bronn, each politely waiting their turn to try their favorite weapon on him.  I don't understand this in kungfu movies and I don't understand it here.  The Sand Snakes aren't supposed to have some lofty personal code are they?  I don't understand why they didn't gang up on him.  While one of them keeps his attention, the other could stab him from the back or side.  Not that I'd like Bronn to die, he's actually one of my favorite characters.   I'm just frustrated with that style of choreographed fight.  So, after all that talking to each other and glaring menacingly, they stood in a circle to fight one fit man and a man with only one hand.  They, along with their mother/stepmother are now captured.   The Sand Snakes are all hat and no cattle.

 

I'm glad Lady Oleana is back in Kings Landing.  I hope she turns off the supplies of gold, food, and troops until Cersei releases Margery and Loras.   She doesn't have to expose the incest.  Cutting off the money, food, and troops would mean instability within Kings Landing (food riots), an inability of the Lannisters to effectively defend themselves from other families or to hold their ground, and they'd be unable to pay the bankers in Braavos what they owe.  Cersei would have to cave quickly.  Lady Oleana needs to play some serious hard ball and soon.

[Advance35]

Can Olenna turn off the food supplies without Consequence?   Olenna seems to understand what Cersei doesn't and that's the fact that hurting either house ultimately hurts both.   Margaery has truly hitched her wagon to Tommen's and his families.   Married and later boasting about her Wedding Night (consumation can't be in question).   If they turn off the food supplies people will ask "why?"  The answer will be because the High Sparrow has imprisoned Margaery for baring false witness before the gods.   Public Good Will is somthing House Tyrell has right now but if they start starving the Kingdom that won't last.

 

Riots and Instability effects House Tyrell in just as bad a way as it would House Lannister.   House Tyrell is now part of the top rung on the power structure, despite the infighting between the two factions both would be held responsible for any suffering the masses endure.   So Olenna is kind of restricted in what she can do and how hard she can retaliate.   Punish the entire populace of Kings Landing and they will be held in the same regard as House Lannister.  Expose Cersei and Margaery is married to a bastard born of incest and is no true Queen.   Annulment won't happen because of consumation.   They didn't come all this way just to give up their hold on the Iron Throne.

 

I am under no illusion that Cersei thought this strategically but Olenna has too.   House Tyrell is finding out what happens when you lay down with dogs.  I hate to say Karma BUT they had know problem adding their troops to House Lannister's and giving them all they would need to crush the Starks.

[terrymct]

Can Olenna turn off the food supplies without Consequence?   Olenna seems to understand what Cersei doesn't and that's the fact that hurting either house ultimately hurts both.   Margaery has truly hitched her wagon to Tommen's and his families.   Married and later boasting about her Wedding Night (consumation can't be in question).   If they turn off the food supplies people will ask "why?"  The answer will be because the High Sparrow has imprisoned Margaery for baring false witness before the gods.   Public Good Will is somthing House Tyrell has right now but if they start starving the Kingdom that won't last.

 

Riots and Instability effects House Tyrell in just as bad a way as it would House Lannister.   House Tyrell is now part of the top rung on the power structure, despite the infighting between the two factions both would be held responsible for any suffering the masses endure.   So Olenna is kind of restricted in what she can do and how hard she can retaliate.   Punish the entire populace of Kings Landing and they will be held in the same regard as House Lannister.  Expose Cersei and Margaery is married to a bastard born of incest and is no true Queen.   Annulment won't happen because of consumation.   They didn't come all this way just to give up their hold on the Iron Throne.

 

I am under no illusion that Cersei thought this strategically but Olenna has too.   House Tyrell is finding out what happens when you lay down with dogs.  I hate to say Karma BUT they had know problem adding their troops to House Lannister's and giving them all they would need to crush the Starks.

 

The splash back at Kings Landing will be on Cersei, not Lady Oleana.  Maybe slow the food ships down, rather than cutting them off completely.  All that said, though, Lady Oleana handled the Joffrey issue without leaving a fingerprint.  Maybe there's something sneakier in store.  Her partner last time was Littlefinger, but he won't move aggressively against Cersei until he has that letter naming him warden of the north.  Once the ink is dry, I bet Oleana could enlist his help.

[RedheadZombie]

Somewhere, it was suggested that LF alluded to Cersei and Jaime's incestuous relationship.  The suggestion was shot down, but I think LF definitely indirectly challenged Cersei on the subject.

 

LF:  "One's choice of companion is a curious thing."

Cersei:  Long pause, attempt to stare down LF.  "Most curious."

 

  Margaery has truly hitched her wagon to Tommen's and his families.   Married and later boasting about her Wedding Night (consumation can't be in question

 

I wonder if High Sparrow would have jailed her if she was pregnant, or even claimed to be.  Wouldn't look good for the heir to the throne to be living behind bars.   At this point, Margaery should shut Tommen out of her bedroom permanently.  Surely she sees how shaky the Lannister hold on the throne is.  Look what happened to the last queen and heir after a regime change.

[Advance35]

But isn't it too late for that?  I mean once your married in Westeros it's apparently annulment due to lack of consumation or death.   She's gone on about how "enthusiastic" Tommen was during the bedding so the former is out.    And if Olenna is willing to poison Tommen again (something that would look VERY suspicious, who would she pin it on this time?).   Even Margaery would have a hard time making another Highborn match after all that's happened.

 

Olenna parried with Tywin that now quite a few people want the Tyrells dead thanks to their affiliation with House Lannister, based on all that's happened I would guess The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Stormlands.   I think this whole thing has gone too far, which is incredible since I didn't even realize until recently how entangled and how one-way House Tyrell's power grab has been.   They would probably be fine if they could focus on outside forces but having to battle House Lannister VIA Cersei in near out and out combat coupled with Tommen (who just isn't up to the job)  I'm really becoming convinced that House Tyrell is going to fall right along with House Lannister.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Advance35

[annsterg]

I was watching the behind the episode, or another behind the scenes short on HBO on demand, and couldn't stop gawking when they showed the dinner scene. Michael, Iwan, and Sophie all broke character and ended up in fits of laugher, and Sophie couldn't stop raving about how Michael (Roose) is always making her laugh. There was a huge disconnect for me, hahaha. 

 

I am trying to find this behind the scenes clip and I can't! anyone know where it is? I just rooted around on the HBO site and didn't find it.

[Lady S.]

Yes, the comparisons leap to mind, don't they?  Especially Oberyn's duel with the Mountain - all I could hear was, "Hello!  You keeled my fathair!  Prepare to die!"

Mountain: "You must be that little Dornish brat whose sister I taught a lesson to all those years ago. You've been chasing me your whole life only to get your head smashed in now? I think that's about the worst thing I've ever heard." Yeah, I think Martin has admitted at some point that The Princess Bride was an influence for him. This whole series is basically a more dark and twisted take on fairy tales tropes. Ramsay becoming the family heir by proving his devotion to his father and the family traditions would be uplifting in a story where the family traditions were noble deeds and not rape and torture.

 

 

I am trying to find this behind the scenes clip and I can't! anyone know where it is? I just rooted around on the HBO site and didn't find it.

Here, but it includes clips we haven't seen yet, so don't watch if you're promo-wary.

 

Here is something I don't understand, Roose is just as sadistic as his psycho son, yet his wife seems to be generally happy. I don't think he mistreats her so why doesn't Ramsey follow his example? Maybe he needs to have a talk with Ramsey.

 

Hasn't Rams always been more obvious with his sadism than Roose? Roose recommended flaying prisoners as an interrogation technique, while Ramsay told Theon he was being tortured purely for entertainment and flayed to death Theon's men at Winterfell and the ironborn at Moat Cailin when he had no practical reason to. Back in s3, Ramsay did a passable job imitating a normal person but that was only to lull Theon into his confidence just to fuck with him. The real problem though is that Roose doesn't appear all that interested in disciplining his son, letting him know he might be replaced and that he was just a rape-bastard fathered on a peasant only served to unnerve Ramsay, not make him more stable. It was actually reminiscent of Roose tricking Jaime into thinking Cersei was dead and letting Catelyn know her son soon would be dead. That's the real difference between father and son, Ramsay needs a heavy dose of physical and psychological pain for his victims, while Roose can lay off on the flaying and rapes as long as he can get his kicks through mindfucking people. Roose is the smarter brains of the operation, while Ramsay is the more impulsive dumb muscle who only makes plans when he wants Theon's torture to be on-going.

Also, while Walder Frey doesn't strike me as the most caring patriarch, it probably makes a big difference that he's still alive with an army Roose might need some day. Part of marriages being business arrangements would mean the wife is an investment to be guarded based on the importance of her father. Sansa's only living adult male relatives are her fugitive great-uncle Blackfish, Lord Floppy Fish who is now Walder's prisoner, and Jon Snow, who has sworn to take no part in the quarrels of the 7k. A few sympathetic commoners can't make up for Ned and Robb, and the Stark loyalist lords have already been taught they can be skinned alive for being too defiant to the Boltons, they're not going to rise up until they know they have a good chance of taking Roose and Ramsay out for good.

 

You know, I've never been entirely clear as to whether Cersei REALLY believed that Tyrion killed Joffrey.

 

If she did, she's an idiot....possible. Possible too that she let her hatred of Tyrion blind her.

 

If she did NOT, but used the opening to rid herself of the hated dwarf brother...then doesn't she care about who REALLY was responsible?

Why wouldn't she? Thinking Tyrion carried poison around for at least a year waiting for the time to strike against Joff is insane, but so is blaming Tyrion for their mother's death, seeing something sinister in his sending Myrcella to Dorne, and thinking his wanting Joffrey at his side during the Battle of Blackwater (something Joffrey himself even wanted before he saw what the battle was like) was about Tyrion wanting to see Joffrey killed. She accused Tyrion of having it in for her children at that last dinner of theirs in s2, then brought in Ros as a hostage thinking she was Tyrion's main squeeze, and that's when Tyrion gave her the "joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" threat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z-a9iEjEM4

 

Heh. Yeah. I've been watching, but honestly nothing has really happened this season to inspire a reaction from me until this ep. Granted this ep inspired negative emotions but I'm sure TPTB don't mind since apathy is the true enemy. It's curious...I don't give a fuck about Dany's story or Jon's or Arya's. Those characters have done fuck all this season of interest, IMO. And until tonight, I didn't give much of a shit about Sansa's story either. Hopefully now that we're at the midway point, things might actually start to happen? I mean, how long does it take for an unstoppable army of dead people to reach the fucking wall anyway? I keep hearing "winter is coming" and "winter is almost upon us" but I've not seen anything to support that. Are they waiting for the finale to pick up that little plot thread?

 

 

Yeah, I'm sure Cersei won't give a shit that she was wrong about Tyrion killing Joffrey, but I do want her to know that Olenna did it. Preferably while choking to death on the poison Olenna just gave her. Ahem. Also, I can't recall...why exactly is it that Cersei has it in for Sansa? Is she just guilty by association with Tyrion even though she didn't even want to marry the guy? I just can't remember why Cersei hates Sansa.

 

Well, if the word of a nobody squire is enough to jail the Queen, then the word of Loras should be enough to jail the Queen mother. Fuck it, let's put all the royals in prison! Viva la revolution! Or something...

Well, it's good to see you again even if it took such a painful plot point.

Yes, she thinks Tyrion and Sansa were in it together since Sansa had even more motive and escaped the same day, which is still stupid but it's clear by now that Cersei has a few screws loose, isn't it? And she seemed to see it as a betrayal that Jaime freed himself by swearing an oath to Catelyn about her daughters. In their first post-Septgate scene, Cersei had turned on him again for visiting Tyrion and tried to test his loyalty by asking if he'd at least bring her Sansa's head instead, which led to the next scene where Jaime sent Brienne off with his sword to rescue Sansa and fulfill whatever oaths they both swore to Lady Stark in his cell.

On the subject of the Purple Wedding, I have to agree that the Tyrells have doomed themselves and I think Olenna deserves more flack for her pre-emptive strike against Joff. Was there no way she could poison Joff before then and just let him die in his sleep? It comes off as more she just didn't care about the blowback to bystanders of signing on for LF's chaos. She nonchalantly told Marg she knew Tyrion was innocent, then hopped out of town expecting him to die anyway, instead Oberyn, Tywin and dwarfs who met up with Cersei's bounty hunters have died in his place and none of that gave her a second thought while she was chilling in Highgarden offscreen. And when it comes down to it the Tyrells are just cold opportunists, who jumped to the lions after Renly's death even though Renly wanted the Lannisters dead the same way Stannis did. Marg was perfectly willing to marry a monster as long as she was the Queen, and I doubt she really thought she could tame him fully and make him a benevolent king who only helped the poor. Now that she has a more moldable king, she only started to want him to be more than a puppet after she needed his help. And making catty snipes to Cersei the day after the wedding, before her position was actually secured with an heir, was not much smarter than Cersei's own malice. So, while I'm looking forward to this biting Cersei in the ass, that's why poor dumb Loras is the only one I really feel sorry for, since his "sins" actually were perfectly harmless before Cersei re-armed the Faith, and it doesn't seem like he and Mace were ever really encouraged to think too much anyway.

So, Tyrion is still Lannister to the bone, huh? Thinking winning a tourney at Lannisport by unhorsing the Kingslayer makes Jorah sound like the biggest badass ever is almost as ludicrous to me as cock merchants actually existing. I'm not sure why even anyone who actually follows jousting should be impressed by that. Loras once unhorsed the Mountain, but I doubt he'd be eager to fight him to the death on foot in a fighting pit. Guess it's a good thing Drogo's bloodriders turned on Dany after he fell off his horse and she had treated with blood magic, since that gave Jorah a story that's actually impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft1N6sXB9-o

Edited May 21, 2015 by Lady S.

[Paradigm14]

The problem with doing that is that it makes Sansa's rape be about Theon and his reactions/feelings. This show has been criticized a lot for its treatment of women, but this scene really comes across as the total male perspective. They are clearly using what happened to Sansa as a spring board for the return of Theon, which means it is not about Sansa or her agency, she has been reduced to a prop whose body and emotional trauma are simply there to further the storyline of not just two men, but arguably two awful men, cause let's not forget who Theon is and the ish he has done, torture victim status not withstanding.

Can't it be about all in the scene, Sansa's painful quest to reclaim Winterfell AND Theon's re-awakening?

And a step toward Ramsey's overplaying his hand, perhaps? WHY does this have to be about modern-day politics?

 

Why does it have to be about men, or women, or Ramsey or Sansa,, or Theon?

 

I already saw Sansa cry and her perspective as  a roughly 15 year old girl being wedded and roughly bedded by a mean guy, from the beginning to the end of that scene, up until that last 10 seconds. HOW does that 10 seconds somehow own the scene when the other 6-7 minutes was playing out her point of view in many ways?

 

Everyone would have been more upset if it had become graphic. And Sansa was not trained in how to seduce or appreciate sex. She wasn't even ready to answer questions as to why one of the prettiest and politically important young women in Westeros didn't consummate her previous marriage.

 

As far as Ramsey could tell in his F*ed up brain, she consented, and told him things were to her satisfaction. Yes, she was hesitant, as any young bride would be. No, this was not a nice experience for her, but she also went into a den of vipers, as a wolf ready to undo the Bolton family. This wasn't going to be a walk in the park or a pleasant diplomatic mission.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't think Sansa consented so much as she acquiesced to the inevitable.

[RedheadZombie]

On the subject of the Purple Wedding, I have to agree that the Tyrells have doomed themselves and I think Olenna deserves more flack for her pre-emptive strike against Joff. Was there no way she could poison Joff before then and just let him die in his sleep? It comes off as more she just didn't care about the blowback to bystanders of signing on for LF's chaos. She nonchalantly told Marg she knew Tyrion was innocent, then hopped out of town expecting him to die anyway, instead Oberyn, Tywin and dwarfs who met up with Cersei's bounty hunters have died in his place and none of that gave her a second thought while she was chilling in Highgarden offscreen. And when it comes down to it the Tyrells are just cold opportunists, who jumped to the lions after Renly's death even though Renly wanted the Lannisters dead the same way Stannis did.

 

I like the Tyrells, but this is a good assessment of them.  Olenna saw the abject misery that was Sansa's life.  She pretended to be kind and caring of Sansa.  Then she was co-conspirator to regicide, using innocent Sansa as the carrier of the poison.  Olenna is very clever.  There's no way Sansa would have been free of suspicion.  She was just collateral damage to Olenna.

 

And I guess by saying the Tyrells, I really mean Olenna.  She's very clear that her son is a moron, and her grandson is a silly pillow-biter.  All her hopes and dreams seem to be centered around Margaery, yet Olenna thinks it's a good idea to tie their fates with the Lannisters.  Now prior to her marriage to Joffrey, I could understand it.  But by the time she married Tommen, it was clear the public had turned on the Lannisters.  And I don't believe for a second that she would have skipped off to Highgarden, leaving Margaery alone in the literal and figurative lion's den.

[Paradigm14]

I don't think Sansa consented so much as she acquiesced to the inevitable.

Yes and no. Could she have possibly snuck out the night before her wedding and put the candle up? I think she could have but chose not to. She probably could have "suggested" even that someone else put it up, and given some quasi-traditional reason for it. But she chose the path. She walked right into it.