S07.E06: Double Down On Delusion

[BeachyMum]

This whole episode was crazy!   I cannot believe Sonja had her guests wait outside in the rain!!! Sonja was beyond rude.  Then the peeing scene..um no thanks I'll pass.  I use to think that NY had the classiest cast..now not so much.  I did LOL when the waiter at the hotel stated "Your dinner has been pre-selected for you."  Was Bethenny really concerned for Sonja or did she want the floor to discuss her ongoing divorce? They are not in the same positions..as Bethenny filed for divorce and has millions of dollars with more just coming in  Sonja's husband left HER and she does not have $$$, nor does she have a product to push.   Ugh what is with ALL the product pushing?! There has not been one episode this season without SkinnyGirl ALL over the place.   

[robroy]

And it's exactly this 'I must tear myself down to make you feel better' mandate that I loathe! Why are we doing this to ourselves? It's terrible. I enjoy that Carole doesn't feel the need to do this, it would not make me feel better to watch her walk around talking about how ugly she is or pointing out all of her flaws.

 

That would be nice if she would also refrain from tearing others down.

 

And after three seasons her little jabs, backhanded comments and accompanying chuckle just drive me up a wall. Thankfully its not a Connecticut wall... or a non size 0 wall. I've said it before but she like half the women on this show really do remind me of people who grow up in families with addicts. It's something about that need to always put people in their place.

[ghoulina]

I think the dead horse resides in Kelly's apartment.

 

I think I love you.

[ryebread]

People who are having such a hard time dealing with Carole saying something positive -- and completely true -- about her body need to turn their judging gaze from Carole and back toward themselves. It's not the people who are saying positive things about themselves that need to change their thinking.

 

If we all turned our judging gaze away from any of the Housewives and back toward ourselves, I'd wager this forum wouldn't have made it to it's second birthday. (Happy Birthday, PreviouslyTV. ) 

 

Participating in these forums, even watching these shows is denigrating to women. But doing so is my choice.  So I'll exercise my rights when it's time to change my thinking and my channel.  But thanks.

[HumblePi]

I'm so thoroughly sick of living in a world where it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to go on at length about all the things she hates about herself, but a woman who makes a brief comment about something she likes about herself is denigrated and ridiculed.  People who are having such a hard time dealing with Carole saying something positive -- and completely true -- about her body need to turn their judging gaze from Carole and back toward themselves. It's not the people who are saying positive things about themselves that need to change their thinking.

I agree with what you're saying, but I also believe that women with great bodies don't need to tell everyone how great they are, it just obvious in the way they carry themselves and self-confidence. The thing is, being self-deprecating is how some women deal with their insecurities. Most of us can understand that self-deprecation is a reponse people use in order to avoid being criticized because they are too fat or not pretty enough. It's a preemptive strike on their part, they'll self-deprecate for fear of being criticized by others. In some countries such as Great Britain, Ireland and Australia, it's frowned upon to 'blow ones own horn'. Some women are absolute masters of the art of self-deprecation. People know what they are, it's not a secret from them. The same goes for women that have a good figure and an attractive face. They really don't need to tell people how good looking they are, people know it. If someone really needs to say something positive about themselves to others aloud, then they have a problem with insecurities and they need validation from others.

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

Carole's body did not look banging in those acid wash mom jeans she wore to Montana last year. She is so annoying.

[pbutler111]

Did Sonja really expect to get sympathy because her sister's best friend died suddenly and that's why her sister was unable to babysit her daughter? What does that say about Sonja?

My question is, who in the world has to fly someone in from Nashville to babysit their teenaged daughter? She has five hundred interns crawling around the place and none of them can babysit? Doesn't the girl's father live in the area? And I'm pretty sure there's more than one babysitting agency in Manhattan -- she couldn't call one of them?

I think most women would agree -- but love does not equal boasting, imo -- YMMV.

Can you just recap for me where Carole boasted? Because I watched the show last night, and I just watched it again this afternoon, and, other than her comment that if she'd known she'd have this body at her age she would've been a stripper, I never heard anything that sounded like boasting.

Kristen's blog explained that both she and Heather did not get to take their kids to school because they were to be at Sonja's house at a certain time and when Ramona arrived she said Bethenny was late because she took her daughter crosstown to school/preschool and that along with waiting in the cold rain ticked them off. She suggested that all Bethenny had to do was text everyone she would be late because of that, the night before so everyone could adjust their schedules. Heather could have handled it better though but if the shoe was on Bethenny's foot, I am sure she would have been furious as well, rightly so, IMO.

On the other hand, shame on Kristen and Heather for prioritizing a trip to Atlanta City over taking their kids to school. Sounds like Bethenny has her priorities in order.

[pbutler111]

I agree with what you're saying, but I also believe that women with great bodies don't need to tell everyone how great they are, it just obvious in the way they carry themselves and self-confidence. The thing is, being self-deprecating is how some women deal with their insecurities. Most of us can understand that self-deprecation is a reponse people use in order to avoid being criticized because they are too fat or not pretty enough. It's a preemptive strike on their part, they'll self-deprecate for fear of being criticized by others. In some countries such as Great Britain, Ireland and Australia, it's frowned upon to 'blow ones own horn'. Some women are absolute masters of the art of self-deprecation. People know what they are, it's not a secret from them. The same goes for women that have a good figure and an attractive face. They really don't need to tell people how good looking they are, people know it. If someone really needs to say something positive about themselves to others aloud, then they have a problem with insecurities and they need validation from others.

 

So, in your way of thinking, anyone who makes a positive comment about themselves is riddled with insecurities and secretly hates themselves?  I'm sorry, but that's silly.   You and others may be more comfortable hearing women be "self-deprecating" (and, just FYI, women talking about all the things they hate about themselves is not self-deprecation, it's self-flagellation) because it's not something you would do, or it doesn't reflect how you feel about yourself.  But that doesn't mean that someone who is secure with herself and does genuinely like the way she looks can't say so without secretly harboring a deep self-hatred.  And, again, someone is going to have to point out to me what Carole said exactly that has so many women here in a tizzy.  I just heard her make one silly comment about becoming a stripper if she'd known she'd still have such a good body at her age.  That one comment really deserved all this pseudo-psychoanalytical fury?

[ryebread]

Please don't hate on me for saying this, but...If anybody should be bragging about their looks, it's Kristin. Not only is she beautiful (which Carole is not), her body is perfection. I like her style,too. In her younger days, she made a nice modeling career out of her beauty.  I know most of you here don't like Kristin, and I really haven't figured out why. Except that she's married to a douche. And maybe she lacks in intelligence. We could say that about Lady Morgan, too. 

I didn't like her last season because it seemed she was wedged too far up Heather's butt or looking for her acceptance, or something.  She tried to be a mean girl but it didn't feel authentic.  I don't think that's her true self.  Whereas I think that's Heather, Carole and Lu all day long. This season she doesn't bug me.  She seems happier (healthy kid?) and more at ease.  She's also not screechy and it doesn't feel like she trying to manufacture a storyline, yet.

 

 

I think that Sonja's Manhattan townhome is far from falling apart. It was for sale at one point in time for $7.2 million. Here's some photos and a drawing of the layout.

She's had some work done on the house since those pictures were shot.  I've seen an updated kitchen and edited furnishings for a newer listing.  That said, I don't understand her behavior at all.  If she didn't want them in for whatever reason, why invite them to gather there.  Just tell Bravo no.  I do believe she probably isn't the tidiest person in the world but again, if the house was a wreck and didn't want it filmed, why invite them.  Unless she planned on cleaning it, got drunk the night before and never got around to it.  Sadly, that seems plausible.

[MatildaMoody]

I guess.... and I have no doubt walking by a woman wearing flattering jeans would also cue Carole to have a conversation about how well her ass looks in hers. Seems like Carole can figure out how to tie her "banging body" into a conversation using pretty much anything in her environment.

But Carole didn't tie her banging body into a conversation. She looked at a scantily clad dancer and then in a talking head made a quip about how she would have been a stripper if she had known she would have this body at 50. It wasn't bragging to anyone or even said obnoxiously. It was a quick line in a talking head interview in which we have no idea what the production question that led to it was.

[NYCFree]

in Manhattan -- she couldn't call one of them?

On the other hand, shame on Kristen and Heather for prioritizing a trip to Atlanta City over taking their kids to school. Sounds like Bethenny has her priorities in order.

It's not so much a trip to Atlantic City--for fun, more like their job. Sometimes jobs require times away from kids. I get the feeling that Bethenny has some sort of deal in place where she can simply state "nope, can't be there" while Kristen and Heather have no such deal.

[film noire]

Can you just recap for me where Carole boasted? 

 

 

You know, I'd like to, but I'm in such a tizzy, my brain can't cope with the assignment! I'm in the grip of pseudo-psychoanalytical fury!

Edited May 13, 2015 by film noire

[shoegal]

That would be nice if she would also refrain from tearing others down.

I totally get that, the comment Carole made about Ramona not fitting into her dress was rude and unnecessary, and I didn't like it. But I think that's a different issue than Carole tooting her own banging body horn.

[film noire]

 But I think that's a different issue than Carole tooting her own banging body horn.

 

I think the two are linked, and part of how she pats herself on the back is in putting other women down  (it's like Carole's glee when Reid tore into Sonja and Ramona a couple of years ago -- when Aviva, Reid, Russ and Carole were on their separate date -- and Reid mocked Ramonja as pathetic, a couple of middle aged girls gone wild, etc.  She didn't try to shut it down or even demure-- she just sat there and lapped it up. Very nasty woman, imo.)

Edited May 13, 2015 by film noire

[shoegal]

I think the two are linked, and part of how she pats herself on the back is in putting other women down (it's like Carole's glee when Reid tore into Sonja and Ramona a couple of years ago -- when Aviva, Reid, Russ and Carole were on their separate date -- and Reid mocked Ramonja as pathetic, a couple of middle aged girls gone wild, etc. She didn't try to shut it down or even demure-- she just sat there and lapped it up. Very nasty woman, imo.)

Carole wasn't patting herself on the back in the scene with Reid....and it didn't come out of Carole's mouth. I don't think that what Reid said can be pinned on Carole, that's quite a stretch. These women are catty and bitchy to each other all the time, no doubt, and Carole is no exception. I'm not denying that.

That, however, is different than Carole thinking she is attractive or has a good body.

Edited May 13, 2015 by shoegal

[motorcitymom65]

Forgot to mention this, regarding Sonja's comment on the last reunion about P Diddy, 

 P Diddy was on WWHL a couple of nights ago. Andy asked him about Sonja. He laughed and said he has no idea who Sonja was, was never on any yacht of hers and if anybody was going to be on a yacht, she would be on his, not vice versa. LOL, delusional Sonja.   He also said he really liked Heather, she was  smart, liked her energy and was great when she worked for him. 

What is so strange about Sonja and her delusions is that she mentions people with known connections to her co-workers. How funny to mention P Diddy being on her yacht when he hadn't been, but she knows that Heather use to work with him. Of course that is going to come up at some point. Now she looks even more stupid because he publicly says he doesn't know Sonja but that Heather is fantastic. Then she mentions John John with full knowledge that this is someone that Carole knew quite well. 

[film noire]

Carole wasn't patting herself on the back in that scene....and it didn't come out of Carole's mouth. I don't think that what Reid said can be pinned on Carole, that's quite a stretch. These women are catty and bitchy to each other all the time, no doubt, and Carole is no exception. I'm not denying that.

That, however, is different than Carole thinking she is attractive or has a good body.

 

A compliment to oneself is a pat on one's back -- and Carol's comment re: her stripper ready body, is by no means an insult to herself.Nowhere did I say Carole was responsible for Reid's remarks -- she is, however, responsible for how she reacted, which was with laughter and smiles. And that reaction -- and the shitty comment about Ramona, and other comments putting her fellow cast members down -- tells me it's not enough for her to praise herself, she has to mock, laugh at or put down others. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by film noire

[motorcitymom65]

According to Heather's Bravo blog, not only were all the ladies meeting in the living area of her room -- so that if they were frustrated about waiting for her, they literally could have shouted into the next room that they were waiting and she should finish getting ready, but also she had let Bethenny use her hair stylist and even let Bethenny go first, so she had to wait to get her hair done.  I also see a big difference between being late when a car is driving a group to Atlantic City and being late getting ready for dinner.  If the rest of the ladies really wanted to, they could have gone down to the restaurant and not waited for Heather.  However, short of leaving without them, everyone had to wait for Bethenny and Sonja to arrive before the car could get going.

How nice of Heather to let the others actually wait in her room.  This is how you do it Sonja.

 

Yea, hardly a comparison between her being late while the others were waiting comfortably in her room with the ability to go down whenever they wanted, and Sonja making folks wait out in the cold rain with no ability to just leave.

[shoegal]

A compliment to oneself is a pat on one's back -- and Carol's comment re: her stripper ready body, is by no means an insult to herself.  And nowhere did I say Carole was responsible for Reid's remarks -- she is, however, responsible for how she reacted, which was with laughter and smiles.

Carole's response to a lot of things is laughter and smiles, how do you know she wasn't laughing and smiling because she was with Russ and hadn't seen him in a while? Carole didn't join in, she didn't agree, she didn't give Reid a high five and a Hell Yeah! Nevermind, I know, it's Carole and she must be criticized. Tear the bitch down!!! How dare she think she's hot!

[Pattycake2]

 

On the other hand, shame on Kristen and Heather for prioritizing a trip to Atlanta City over taking their kids to school. Sounds like Bethenny has her priorities in order.

 

It's their job.  They are getting paid to get to shoots on time. Doing so, is a responsible thing.

 

Women going on about their wonderful bodies...being beautiful, being pretty, having a banging body is very nice.  Mostly, it is the results of good genes, serendipity, or luck of the draw. You don't brag about it as if you are god's gift to the universe.  It's far better to work on being beautiful inside.  Or, as Dorinda said, "Money talks, wealth whispers." 

[motorcitymom65]

Maybe I am crazy, but I have seen Carole's comments this season about her body as nothing more than taking ownership of something she has been heavily criticized for in the past. This forum and others were filled with comments about how skinny she was and how unhealthy she looked the last two seasons. She got lots of tweets on several occasions last season about her unhealthy body. I think she is making it clear that she is happy with herself. Good for her. There is so much body shaming that goes on for all of these HW's. I much prefer hearing someone say they are happy with their body. How much more healthy would women be in general if we all talked about the good parts of our bodies vs. lamenting the not so great parts? Ramona has always talked about how happy she is with her body. On WWHL last season a caller asked her if she always wore sleeveless dresses and tops, and if so, why. She said that she always does, no matter the season, because she has great arms and she wants to show them off. I also didn't see Carole's comment about Ramona as being so offensive. Carole is extremely skinny and Ramona probably wouldn't be able to get to that point. I think she was making the point that others always do that she is very skinny. She didn't say that Ramona had a terrible body at all. Carole has never been anything except extremely supportive of Ramona. She has been kind to her when others weren't. Carole can be snarky in her TH interviews. I don't see that as cruel. I watch the way she treats others and for the most part, she treats others very well.

[motorcitymom65]

On the other hand, shame on Kristen and Heather for prioritizing a trip to Atlanta City over taking their kids to school. Sounds like Bethenny has her priorities in order.

How much would I have loved to have been able to get my kids to school each day instead of handling my work obligations? How many working parents would love to be able to do this? I think that Heather and Kristen's priorites were in order, which was why they were so pissed off. They wanted to get their kids to school but were trying to be good co-workers/employees. The frustration came because they were not told that others were not going to be ready at the determined time. If they had known this, they could have been tending to their kids as well. That and the fact that it was cold outside.

[One Tough Cookie]

So, this will probably sound like a weird comparison, but maybe three or four years ago, some guy got a "study" published in Psychology Today. It was all about scientifically proving that Black women are not attractive, and on top of that, since we were scientifically/biologically unattractive, it's non-sensical for Black women, on average, to have such high esteem about our looks and/or our bodies. Like

 

[One Tough Cookie]

So, this will probably sound like a weird comparison, but maybe three or four years ago, some guy got a "study" published in Psychology Today. It was all about scientifically proving that Black women are not attractive, and on top of that, since we were scientifically/biologically unattractive, it's non-sensical for Black women, on average, to have such high esteem about our looks and/or our bodies. Like

 

 

I'm sorry, but WHAT THE FUCK YEAR IS THIS??? 1842 or something????

Edited May 13, 2015 by One More Time

[Grneyedldy]

In my personal opinion Carole is trying to be funny with almost everything that comes out of her mouth. Unfortunately the funny doesn't show up the majority of the time. I really doubt she thinks she's "hot" though that doesn't mean she's not happy with her body. She's too thin and I'm sure she's very aware of it. I think the line about distracting Adam during ping pong was intended to be funny. Her delivery is very dry which I usually like in comedy, but she's not selling it. And that goes for the comments in her THs. I really don't think she's being mean. Well except for where Luanne is concerned. Those are digs.

[lunastartron]

Any assertions Carole makes on a national television program are subject to critique and deconstruction. Personally, although I am not a fan of her personality, I think it's great that she seems to be happy with her appearance. However, I suspect that if a more polarizing personality (say, Aviva or Bethenny) or a more conventional/stereotypical beauty (Alexis Bellino, for example) dropped multiple references to their enviable faces or flawless physiques, there would be a lot less tolerance for their confidence. I try not to pejoratively remark upon physical characteristics outside of one's control because, well, they're outside of one's control, but the inverse of that is: if aesthetics are largely based on luck, what's there to tout? I recall multiple viewers lamenting Aviva's invocations of her educational pedigree (and Heather got a dig in on the show); while Vassar and a JD are partially subjective like any accomplishments, they involve more work that one's physical features. Tamra Judge's compulsion to tout herself as the "hottest housewife" is not without backlash in my opinion - she makes the effort to advertise herself as representative of beauty, so why wouldn't audiences respond to that effort? This page is replete with observations of Sonja's "delusions" because she still makes attempts to present herself as wealthy. Lots of people would consider residency in an UES townhouse sufficient testament to wealthy, paper bankruptcy or not. From my perspective, Carole has gone out ofher way to demean others on several occasions (sneering at Aviva "that was a letter to your mother, not a book" before Aviva started any insinuations; sneering at LuAnn for having the temerity to ask for design samples despite not being the First Lady; characterizing stay at home motherhood as "nothing"), so her subjective contentions and statements will inevitably elicit comment.

[lunastartron]

Heather and Kristen's disgruntlement sounds like it was largely attributable to miscommunication and production, at least as far as Bethenny was concerned. Bethenny's tardiness was rendered a moot point by Sonja's rudeness and lack of decorum so there was no reason to snipe at her, in my opinion, other than to start shit. Are Kristen and Heather upset that Bethenny, too, didn't have to suffer outside in the cold? And either punctuality is of paramount importance or it's not. Sure, the ladies could have proceeded to dinner without Heather - or maybe production wouldn't let them. Heather could just as easily foregone hair and makeup and done them herself if timeliness is sacrosanct.

[RedInk]

Carole's trolling, y'all. I think she's intentionally provocative in her talking heads to get people into a tizzy, because it goes along with her bohemian, free-spirited, who cares what people think of me/I'm just doing this for kicks schtick. I can't get worked up about any of them because really they're all kind of sad and seeking validation, they just package it differently.

[imjagain]

This is going to be a long season.

Edited May 13, 2015 by imjagain

[Vicky8675309]

Remember the previous episode where Sonia invites Ramona on the trip. Ramona suggests inviting some of the other women and Sonia expresses doubts or concerns/worries since some of the others have "bullied" or "picked" on her. Ramona agrees with her about being "pick on". Next scene in this vacation storyline is the "kicked out of Sonia's house". LOL!

I do think Sonia seems delusional and she probably is delusional at times (but she likely was not delusional when kicking them out). I also think she is more neutral to good hearted on the scale/spectrum of good to bad (no one is pure "good" or pure "bad"). If she decided to be bitchy and kick out women who pick on her (in her opinion) then good for her. It's a minor inconvenience and nothing like bg trying to further the wedge between sisters or kim shitting on her niece. I can also understand the others getting frustrated with Sonia and "picking" on her. Personally, I wouldn't pick on Sonia. I would express my concerns and offer help~if she didn't want help and continued to be annoying then I would ignore/avoid her and just be civil when interacting (keep it lighthearted and avoid being alone with her)

[WireWrap]

And that I think says something. For some reason Caroles self praise stands out because she WANTS it to stand out. It's her delivery, her demeanor, how she inserts it. It's true Ramona has spoken plenty about herself, her accomplishments yada, yada and yet for some reason Carole's handful of comments garner such a reaction. Hmmmmmmm. Why? Because it's also partnered with a bigger part of who Carole is as. Her behavior, her mocking tone, her belittlement and disregard. I think it's that she does these things and says these things just so she can't poke at her audience while at the same time have this air like she's better than everyone else.  I think the praise goes along with the dislike I feel about her because she just doesn't stop throwing it out there how much better she thinks she is than other people and while I get that that's how she's having fun with her part on this show I don't appreciate her desire to do it at the expense of others so readily. It's not just the body image its the whole shebang when it comes to Carole. She's such an ugly person and yet she has the nerve to place herself so highly on a level that she just doesn't rate. I wouldn't mind her antics so much if she wasn't so dead set on assigning herself so much importance. Hey have a laugh, have some fun, appreciate yourself, be resilient, let it roll off your back, be cool, etc. etc.. Sure, great but to do her little act and then still give off the vibe that she's some authority on ANYTHING just disgusts me and no, I refuse validate her in any way shape or form because she doesn't rate and even though that is only my opinion I value my opinion so there ya go. Makes me happy to point out just how irrelevant I feel the Radzster really is. :-)

In general, when you do not like the personality of a particular HW, you tend to find any and everything they say/do as irritating. When you like a certain HW, you tend to see the positive in everything they say/do. It's that simple, you dislike Carole for what ever reason and no matter what, she grates on your last nerve all the time. I, myself, kind of like her and most things she says/does do not bother me too much. I find Bethenny really grating, arrogant and irritating but I like Heather a lot, you are the reverse if I remember correctly! LOL  

 

That said, Carole's comments about her body/looks have been in her TH and we have no idea what she was asked to elicit that specific answer. Example.....Q..What do you think of Ramona's body?.....Carole....She could never fit into my dress-------that would be cruel/mean/nasty answer. Q......Would you allow Ramona to wear your Prairie dress?..........Carole....She could never fit into my dress.....Acceptable answer. The questions asked by the producer are never heard so it is hard to take TH comments seriously or at face value unless the HW goes into great detail.  JMO

[archer1267]

I thought it interesting that in the discussion about the curling iron burn vs. hickey (and I've had the curling iron burn, it's not a fallacy), LuAnn was sitting right there, laughing at the notion that Carole could have a hickey from Adam. I mean...who else would it be? Carole had just told her that she was seeing Adam. Kristen even says "the chef!" I also think that if LuAnn was really burnt up about the relationship, she wouldn't have shared a suite with Carole. Where's your supposed outrage, LuAnn?

 

Yup. I'm calling shenanigans here on LuAnn's change of heart.

 

Ditto here on enjoying Bethenny this episode. I liked seeing her genuinely trying to connect with another person (even if it was futile).

 

On second viewing, Carole's comment about being a stripper was - to me - more about her chosen line of work than anything. Sometimes I've gotten a plumber's bill and thought, "Damn, I went into the wrong line of work." I took Carole's comment of "I would have made more money..." in that vein. It's interesting to me that people are taking it as an "I'm so hot" comment, primarily.

Edited May 13, 2015 by archer1267

[motorcitymom65]

Heather and Kristen's disgruntlement sounds like it was largely attributable to miscommunication and production, at least as far as Bethenny was concerned. Bethenny's tardiness was rendered a moot point by Sonja's rudeness and lack of decorum so there was no reason to snipe at her, in my opinion, other than to start shit. Are Kristen and Heather upset that Bethenny, too, didn't have to suffer outside in the cold? And either punctuality is of paramount importance or it's not. Sure, the ladies could have proceeded to dinner without Heather - or maybe production wouldn't let them. Heather could just as easily foregone hair and makeup and done them herself if timeliness is sacrosanct.

I love it when the drama and the reactions seem organic, vs. a ho'wife acting out for the camera. That is what I saw in Heather's reaction. It might not have been the reaction that all would have, but it is the reaction that some would certainly have (me included). She was pissed because Sonja is thoughtless about others. She has seen this firsthand. Remember the toaster oven? Heather was so supportive of Sonja, yet Sonja was not gracious. She would show up to an important meeting 2 hours late and wonder why anyone would be upset with her. An appointment with highly paid professionals there to assist and support her. Highly paid professionals paid by someone other than Sonja Morgan. She acted as if Heather and her staff should just feel lucky to get to work with her. Like she was doing them a favor. Now she is telling her "friends" that they cannot wait in her home. What is more horrendous than that, however, is her inability to understand why that would bother anyone. She is fabulous. She has a good heart. She wouldn't hurt anyone. Therefore she is never to be held accountable for the way she actually treats others. If others react to her being thoughtless, they are the problem. It is their reaction that is the problem. This drives me nuts, and clearly it drives Heather nuts as well. I saw her reaction in the limo to be someone who was so angry and frustrated that she started taking it too far but she didn't care, cameras be damned. She was just too pissed to worry about whether or not her reaction was correct. This is the shit that I love. The real shit.

[WireWrap]

Heather and Kristen's disgruntlement sounds like it was largely attributable to miscommunication and production, at least as far as Bethenny was concerned. Bethenny's tardiness was rendered a moot point by Sonja's rudeness and lack of decorum so there was no reason to snipe at her, in my opinion, other than to start shit. Are Kristen and Heather upset that Bethenny, too, didn't have to suffer outside in the cold? And either punctuality is of paramount importance or it's not. Sure, the ladies could have proceeded to dinner without Heather - or maybe production wouldn't let them. Heather could just as easily foregone hair and makeup and done them herself if timeliness is sacrosanct.

Heather was not mad at Bethenny being late, she was upset that Sonja did not tell them she, Bethenny, was going to be late nor did she give them a heads up the night before when she was told.

 

Bethenny asked Heather to use her stylist and Heather said Yes and allowed Bethenny to have her hair done first. If Bethenny was so worried about getting to dinner on time, maybe she should have done her own hair instead of asking for Heather's stylist and then been gracious when it took Heather longer to get ready instead of throwing a dig at her in front of everyone! LOL 

[WireWrap]

I thought it interesting that in the discussion about the curling iron burn vs. hickey (and I've had the curling iron burn, it's not a fallacy), LuAnn was sitting right there, laughing at the notion that Carole could have a hickey from Adam. I mean...who else would it be? Carole had just told her that she was seeing Adam. Kristen even says "the chef!" I also think that if LuAnn was really burnt up about the relationship, she wouldn't have shared a suite with Carole. Where's your supposed outrage, LuAnn?

 

Yup. I'm calling shenanigans here on LuAnn's change of heart.

 

Ditto here on enjoying Bethenny this episode. I liked seeing her genuinely trying to connect with another person (even if it was futile).

 

On second viewing, Carole's comment about being a stripper was - to me - more about her chosen line of work than anything. Sometimes I've gotten a plumber's bill and thought, "Damn, I went into the wrong line of work." I took Carole's comment of "I would have made more money..." in that vein. It's interesting to me that people are taking it as an "I'm so hot" comment, primarily.

On WWHL, LuAnn now says that what upset her happens further down the line on an upcoming episode! LOL She needs to be careful on saying that, Brandi kept saying that she and Kim would be vindicated all season long and it never happened! Also, if something bad happened between them later during filming, why was she fine with Carole/Heather until 2 weeks ago?  LOL

[film noire]

Carole's response to a lot of things is laughter and smiles, how do you know she wasn't laughing and smiling because she was with Russ and hadn't seen him in a while? Carole didn't join in, she didn't agree, she didn't give Reid a high five and a Hell Yeah! Nevermind, I know, it's Carole and she must be criticized. Tear the bitch down!!! How dare she think she's hot!

 

Carole has made it very clear (at the time, or in THs) when she's disliked a conversation (Luann/Indian/First Nations comes screaming to mind)so I'll take her at her own word, and judge her by her own standards;  if she had an issue with Reid mocking  middle aged women, she would've said so. And who cares if she thinks she's hot? Have at it!   The women she was snickering about with Reid also think they're hot. Lots of women, of every size, shape and colour rightfully and happily think they're hot (and most of them don't, as Carole did, publicly proclaim their great body a blessing from God, amongst all the chaff that's come her way). That's not my problem with her. I don't like her pissing on other women, I don't like her laughing & enjoying women being mocked in front of her,  and I don't like the the weird, narcissistic energy that oozes out of her, period -- whether she's talking about her body, or writing in a manner oh-so patently superior to Aviva's silly approach, or being morally above in her use of language when referring to the NA/FN, or whatever the topic du jour -- Carole is always there, oozing smug out of every pore -- that's my problem with the woman.

Edited May 14, 2015 by film noire

[ryebread]

Heather and Kristen's disgruntlement sounds like it was largely attributable to miscommunication and production, at least as far as Bethenny was concerned. Bethenny's tardiness was rendered a moot point by Sonja's rudeness and lack of decorum so there was no reason to snipe at her, in my opinion, other than to start shit.

 

I agree with that.  They had no reason to pick at Bethenny.  Everything that day, from not letting them know that Beth was running late, to inviting them to gather at her house, to not letting them in was all on Sonja.

 

Now, if it turns out that she DID let them in but asked them to stay downstairs, and Heather decided lead the troops and storm the castle - and then Sonja threw them out after that, then I get it.  Still rude but I can see Heather leading the charge and the camera crew up the stairs to the upper floors of Grey Garden.  Sonja has a right to privacy in her home.  If she wanted them to remain on the downstairs level while she got ready upstairs, they should have respected that. 

[njbchlover]

This has probably been said by now.  If so, apologies, but these two things made my night:

 

Sonja:  I've partied with Madonna and John John Kennedy

Dorinda:  Well John John's dead so that's difficult

 

Sonja the next morning:  I don't know what's wrong with me, it must be the baromic pressure, we're so high up.

Kristen (snickering):  Yep, that's absolutely right, it's the baromic pressure.

 

Now something is wrong with me because as much as I felt for her when she was trying to talk to Sonja, I couldn't stop giggling that there's someone who verbally exhausts Bethenney. 

 

When Kristen is laughing at your dumbassery it's been a bad night.

 

This cracked me up, too....I mean, Sonja - you get that you are in Atlantic City, right???  The Atlantic City, NJ that is located on the coast of New Jersey?  The coast with the Atlantic Ocean, right?  You would be at sea level, then...which is pretty low....

 

Sonja's comments made me think she had just finished watch Al Roker and the weather forecast on the Today Show, and she was just repeating what she heard.  

[ryebread]

I love it when the drama and the reactions seem organic, vs. a ho'wife acting out for the camera. That is what I saw in Heather's reaction. It might not have been the reaction that all would have, but it is the reaction that some would certainly have (me included).

 

Yeah, it seemed pretty real.  I don't think Heather realized the camera crew was filming through Sonja's window as she was saying, "You're a bitch.  You're a fucking bitch."  Not that she would have cared but her reaction was real. I wish Heather wasn't so "Fuck you, motherfucker" though.

[missy jo]

I think Carole's crack about her ass goes back to St. Barth's, when Sonja said "check out the ass on Carole! No wonder Clooney did [dated?] her for a year." I don't think the "check out my great ass" comment came out of nowhere.

 

 

Yeah, she got assigned that tagline (they don't get to choose them) after Sonja's comments, and then I think Sonja said the same thing again when they were swimming in the Berkshires last season.

 

Seeing lots of comments about Carole thinking too highly of her figure.  Personally, I think everyone should think highly of their bodies.  Lots of money is being made on the notion that there is something wrong with women's bodies and they keep inventing more issues for women to be insecure about.  To me, a woman who is unapologetically proud of her body is a great thing.

 

 

I haven't seen her go overboard in my opinion. I'm glad - and just a tad envious - that she's that happy with herself.

[Morbs]

Carole's just not that naturally funny, her timing and tone can be off, so it's hard to decipher her jokes from being an idiot to really caring about something or just joking.  Like, Kathy Griffin can brag about her bikini bod, and it's clear she is proud of her hard work, but also she knows she is being ridiculous and over the top cocky.  But with Carole it can read as unlikable.

 

While, on the one hand, I recognize that Sonja really needs her RHONYC income, on the other hand, I wonder how long Bravo can go on exploiting her painfully obvious mental illness. She may just be an exceptional actress, but this doesn't seem to me to be the usual RH overblown hysteria over minutiae designed to artificially up the drama and secure the person's place in the lineup. Sonja has degenerated into someone who seems to be in serious trouble, both mentally and physically. It's becoming increasingly disturbing to watch.

 

Yeah.  And no one even wants to help her when she is wasted anymore because they've just done it so much.  I used to think she knew she had nothing to brag about business wise, so she deliberately was over the top to act more like the comedienne she referred to herself as to Ramona once, but now I think there is definitely something wrong mentally.

[MatildaMoody]

Heather was not mad at Bethenny being late, she was upset that Sonja did not tell them she, Bethenny, was going to be late nor did she give them a heads up the night before when she was told.

 

Bethenny asked Heather to use her stylist and Heather said Yes and allowed Bethenny to have her hair done first. If Bethenny was so worried about getting to dinner on time, maybe she should have done her own hair instead of asking for Heather's stylist and then been gracious when it took Heather longer to get ready instead of throwing a dig at her in front of everyone! LOL 

I honestly thought that Bethenny was joking with Heather because she kept saying no one was mad at Heather for being late. To me, Bethenny's defensive manner and rapid fire delivery just makes most of her "Patented Bethenny Frankel One Liners (TM SkinnyGirl)" fall flat. She is slowly getting into the groove of working with the new women versus being a bit more understanding/protective of the ones that were filming during her tenure.

 

Honestly, I think the reason, Bethenny keeps saying how much she enjoyed filming this season has just as much to do with her finding a groove with the other women later in the season as it does her wanting to be on TV and hawk her products.

 

I've yet to see anything in real time that makes me think that Bethenny is completely on the outs with Heather. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that Heather hates or has a current feud with Heather either.  From what I can see so far, both Bethenny and Heather have been feeling each other out to find the line of where they can work together as two alphas in a group of Real Housewives.

[film noire]

 Sonja has a right to privacy in her home.  

 

I wondered if she had a man in there --  someone Sonja would feel embarrassed about being seen with on camera? -- something was off, there.

[motorcitymom65]

I wondered if she had a man in there -- someone Sonja would feel embarrassed about being seen with on camera? -- something was off, there.

But it all begs the question - why? She knew that a camera crew would be arriving in the morning to film them leaving for AC. I might not be on the show, but the one thing I can guarantee you is that Bravo always films them going away on vacation, and almost never films them coming home. I don't care if she had a dude in the townhouse, if it was dirty, or if she just wasn't ready, I just don't get it. Is it that hard to get the dude out of your house or clean it up before the cameras show up? It reminds me of Kim Richards deciding to take "one pill" right before filming the Poker Game. Why behave this way when you know the cameras are coming? Because you are stupid and thoughtless, and you don't think the normal rules apply to you.

Edited May 14, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[lunastartron]

Preach, film noire! I can't believe I forgot Carole colonialistically lecturing a minority (and erroneously to boot, as "Indian" is the preferred terminology of many indigenous peoples) on the appropriate way in which to identify herself . . . If Heather was not mad at Bethenny being late (I know that's how she is characterizing her behavior in the limousine in her blog), then she would not have lashed out at Bethenny and, realizing that Bethenny did not deserve any ire, would probably be able to figure out why Bethenny was reciprocally criticizing her in Atlantic City. She's basically retconning what transpired rather than actually acknowledging that she was venting at Bethenny because of her fury toward Sonja, in my opinion . . . I understand why organic responses are refreshing in a manner of sorts, but, I mean, there are plenty of instances in which bad behavior has been organic. Aviva totally spinning out of control in rage on St. Barth's did not appear at all manufactured to me compared to some of her subsequent grabs for attention. So . . . props to her for becoming incensed over the lack of a welcome banner? And, I mean, Sonja's conduct in and of itself seems pretty authentically dissociated from reality - she likely does not believe she has a problem, has not done anything wrong in her time on the show, and owes no one any apologies.

[HumblePi]

I've just read the most profoundly hysterical review of last night's episode by Brian Moylan of Vulture.com

This is just a portion of the article that made me chuckle and even laugh out loud for real. You can read the rest on the link I'll provide.

 

"Of course Sonja had a litany of insane excuses why she couldn’t let them in, starting with: Her sister was yelling at her because her best friend died, and she couldn’t have them by the front door because the dogs and cats will run out into the road. Then she said that there was going to be a possible alien invasion so she couldn’t have any statement necklaces around, but then she remembered that LuAnn hitched a ride with Carole on the Chinatown bus, so then she said that based on the lunar calendar, she could only have 12 souls in the house at any given time, and since she has the three cats, one dog, and seven interns (one for styling, one for social media, one for ice-making, one for cell-phone monitoring, one for Blackberry monitoring, and two on dog-piddle patrol), there was no more spiritual energy to spare in her house."

 

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/real-housewives-of-new-york-city-recap-season-7-episode-6.html?_ga=1.86854616.1780359461.1431562971

[MatildaMoody]

Carole has made it very clear (at the time, or in THs) when she's disliked a conversation (Luann/Indian/First Nations comes screaming to mind)so I'll take her at her own word, and judge her by her own standards;  if she had an issue with Reid mocking  middle aged women, she would've said so. And who cares if she thinks she's hot? Have at it!   The women she was snickering about with Reid also think they're hot. Lots of women, of every size, shape and colour rightfully and happily think they're hot (and most of them don't, as Carole did, publicly proclaim their great body a blessing from God, amongst all the chaff that's come her way). That's not my problem with her. I don't like her pissing on other women, I don't like her laughing & enjoying women being mocked in front of her,  and I don't like the the weird, narcissistic energy that oozes out of her, period -- whether she's talking about her body, or writing in a manner oh-so patently superior to Aviva's silly approach, or being morally above in her use of language when referring to the NA/FN, or whatever the topic du jour -- Carole is always there, oozing smug out of every pore -- that's my problem with the woman.

How do we know that Carol didn't say something to Reid? I mean most of the things that you are calling out as her thinking she is hot and/or putting the other women down was filmed in a talking head. Her laughing at something Reid said could have been "get along to go along" or simply spliced in footage. Not saying either of those things is the case, but it is just as likely that it is the case as it is that her talking heads are being used by production to provide a narrative to the actual footage.

 

I can get behind the idea that Carole is smug, she totally is. They all are and, depending on how much you like or dislike a certain HW the smugness seems greater or lesser.

 

But, I like to view all of the housewives, even the ones that I truly dislike, through the same lens when it comes to production influence. What I really enjoyed about earlier seasons of all of the housewives, was that the talking heads used to be a simple punctuation to a scene. Now, so much of the drama is created based on what was said in a talking head. And, now that I know that the TH's were filmed so long after the season wrapped and was largely dictated by a producer question, I only look to them for a funny one liner or a groan/snark worthy attempt at comedy. I never count on them as part of the actual film narrative of the women interacting with each other anymore. 

 

That said, I don't dislike Carole as much as others do. I don't love her as much as others do either. I just think of her the way I think of all of these crazy HO's. Some of their bullshit is really them. Some of their bullshit is put on for the show. Most of their bullshit is producer influenced. 

 

I always think about how much I disliked Heather in her first season and then how much I liked her in her second season. Then I think about OC's Heather, and how much I disliked her in her first season, only be proven right in my dislike in her subsequent seasons. I try to keep my like/dislike of any HW fluid.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Bethenny had to pee. I and everybody I know has done that at one point or another. What else was she supposed to do? It didn't look like there were any bathrooms around.

I'm not sure if you're a male or female scoobie, but after child birth a lot of women have a hard time holding it.

It was the side of the freeway and it was raining. I didn't see the big deal.

 

Oh please, this was a dumb routine Bethenny was doing for the cameras -- just more crapola Bethenny & Satan Andy thought we'd find hysterical.  Anyone find this bit hilarious?  And yeah, I thought it was a gross move.  A really gross move.  But if you think a woman should pull down her pants & squat down or a man should pull out his penis & just pee wherever & whenever they get the urge, then go you ahead join these foul people & God Bless ya.  But in the meantime, you can bet Bethenny isn't walking thru the streets of Manhattan just peeing anywhere.  That makes no sense.  

 

Peeing itself isn't gross.  Who the heck would think that?  Once again this poster is twisting my words for whatever her silly reasons.  Peeing is an everyday function everyone does & it is an essential part of life.  BUT peeing indiscriminately anywhere is disgusting.  But again, if this poster finds this behavior, which we all learn not to do by age 3, so wonderful & awesome then go ahead & maybe Bethenny will invite you to join her.  Altho I suspect she'd never join you in a zillion years cuz this was done ONLY for the show.  

 

Btw, my dad has this problem & uses diapers.  Lots of men with prostate issues have this problem & must use diapers.  Bethenny just seemed to me to be thoughtlessly (once again) making fun of what is a serious problem for many men & women.  I hated it.

 

And this also reminded me of the time I was on a subway train & a homeless guy took out his dick & started peeing, while people on the packed car moved away, shocked & panicked.  Lovely, right?  It was horrible.  And btw, I've driven down that route they took many, many times & I've never seen any women squatting by the side of the road.  Guess I've been missing out on the good things in life, eh?

Edited May 16, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[zoeysmom]

Yeah, it seemed pretty real.  I don't think Heather realized the camera crew was filming through Sonja's window as she was saying, "You're a bitch.  You're a fucking bitch."  Not that she would have cared but her reaction was real. I wish Heather wasn't so "Fuck you, motherfucker" though.

How many people would let someone in their house that is calling them a fucking bitch?    What I still don't get is Heather said foyer several times so I am concluding they were inside and Sonja told them (and the crew) not to come upstairs.  I also noticed that Sonja used every stupid excuse on the planet instead of the bona fide reason and that was she was shuffling around making child care arrangements.  No need for Heather, Kristen or the Bravo cameras to capture that moment.  In Bravo world it would become Sonja left the kid home alone to go party for the weekend in Atlantic City.  Sonja would end up back in court fighting for custody because she was stupid enough to let Bravo come in and film and edit a conversation.

 

I like Heather and she needs to realize she is rough on Sonja and Sonja recoils when she makes taunts her, dismisses her and makes a lot of references to her mental illnesses and lack of awareness.  It is kind of like Heather if you find all these things so disturbing why do you even speak to Sonja?  Seems last week Heather was put out because Sonja didn't use her as an advisor.  She has and Sonja was dressed down for her lack of appreciation.  It is coming off that Heather needs Sonja a helluva lot more than the RHONYC needs her.  I felt bad for Heather when Bethenny dressed her down and now she is doing the same thing.

[The Evil One]

For whatever reason, I find Carole to be snarky but not malicious. I do feel like there is a part of her that finds the whole RH enterprise ridiculous and she pokes fun at it and some of the other housewives. I think she's also keenly aware of the character she is to play - the sexy widow, and she plays into it, winkingly. For whatever reason, I don't take her 100 percent seriously. As for B, this is is the B that I have been waiting for. Straightforward and genuine, her attempts to help Sonja were touching to me. I think it's so frustrating to see someone who you care about be in pain and know that they can get better and get help, but can't make them do it unless they really want it for themselves. But bravo for B for trying.