S01.E10: The Lie

[Mama No Life]

I thought Ben bought the accident theory until Cornell told him Abby beaned Tom 6 times, and then he realized she did it on purpose. That's why he was crying.  But it was too late then...he was committed to the lie.

 

Of course, I never got the whole "it was an accident" line they were all feeding each other.  If she had been running away with him and he fell and hit his head, yes.  If she fell down and pushed him into the river, yes.  You don't accidentally crush someone's skull with a flashlight.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Mama No Life

[Chairperson Meow]

So, is next season a new case or Cornell goes for Abby? Because either way, they got me. The last few episodes hooked me.

When I saw Christy and Abby at the boardwalk with those River Walk signs, for a minute, I was afraid Abby made her way here to New Orleans. Our murder rate is high enough without Little Girl Dexter and Mommy hanging out enjoying the shops.

[darshu]

I duno the mom started to show a bit of rage twards the end as well maybe the kids not the first killer in the family. It would explain where it came from.

[berly57]

Did anyone catch what Abby said the second time to her mother in the car, after she said "I really thought Jess would move away"? She said something else that made Christy give a funny look but I could not make it out for the life of me.

[truthaboutluv]

She said, "if only I had gotten Tom to the water", which I guess confirms her plan had been to drown him, because I guess it would have made it harder to figure out who killed him or even that he was murdered. Christy looks freaked out because it sort of confirms that it was no accident and Abby planned to kill Tom that night. She likely ended up smashing his head in instead, when he refused to keep going with her and started throwing a major tantrum, wanting to go back home.

Edited May 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[LeGrandElephant]

Two things:

Secondly, why did Cornell wait 14 months before she approached Natalie to testify against Abby? Oh, wait, I just figured it out. Natalie needs to be an adult to make her own decisions, thus, her 18th birthday. Nevermind!

That's not true though, is it? Law and order has had teenagers testify against their parents wishes. Plus her parents both ditched her so if anything it would be up to her uncle to block the police talking to her and I don't see why he would. I thought it was implausible that Natalie wouldn't try to save her father. But I could believe that the court system wouldn't take her seriously, if she has no evidence and it seems like a desperate ploy to save him.

Ryan Phillippe said in an interview on Howard Stern that he only signed up to be on the show for one season.

I think the show might go on with a different cast or a different lead. I don't like that we have to go online to find out the complete ending though.

Any chance they'd do a season not focusing on him but bring him back for one or two episodes?

Can anyone tell me the ending to the Australian version?

I couldn't believe Christy was cool just hanging out and shopping with Abby after knowing she killed Tom on purpose and her father sacrificed his entire life to save her. And Christy was also cool with abandoning Natalie for her! Good thing there was that convenient rich nice uncle to take care of her. Christy is awful. Abby might kill her once she's old enough not to depend on her and gets a boyfriend or something that Christy doesn't like.

I'm still angry at what an idiot Ben is. With him, Jess, and Abby as suspects and no real evidence, there could easily have been no one convicted. They could have taken Abby to a shrink bound by confidentiality, and continued keeping a more stable home life for her and Nat. What bothers me about the ending is he sacrificed himself for nothing. There was no indication anyone was about to arrest Abby and even if they did she doesn't face much penalty at 12. If Cornell had come at him guns blazing insisting they CAN try her as an adult in this state and saying she had serious evidence, then his confession might have seemed more reasonable. As it is I feel like he metaphorically killed himself for no good reason and left everyone else, especially Nat, to deal with the fallout.

Near the end when Cornell said six blows, I was hoping he'd reconsider and react with a "she hit him six times? She said it was an accident!" But no. Self sacrificing idiot to the end.

I don't want to watch him being an idiot for a whole nother season. But I would be happy if they brought him back for a cameo to reveal he'd been released from prison and Abby was in some kind of serious treatment center. I think the CC lines really only made sense if he died in jail, but since they didn't explicitly say so they could play it off either way if they wanted.

Oh, and putting any important part of a show online is lame. I wasn't watching the CC all the way through and I was annoyed this one was required.

Edited May 4, 2015 by LeGrandElephant

[Sandman]

So, according to the Cornell Confidential epilogue, now that Ben is out of his life (by reason of his unfortunate incarceration, or because he's possibly dead) not only is Dave married, he is wearing a spiffy suit (and possibly holding down a job)? Maybe Backyard Dave wasn't the bad influence in that pair.

[FurryFury]

And the fact that almost everyone on here guessed the killer correctly in the preceeding week or two, in my opinion, really goes to show that the series did a good job of planting clues and having a general story arc planned, as opposed to completely making it up as they go along with endless red herrings (I'm pointing at the first season of The Killing here).

 

No idea about S&L (don't watch this show), but I've binged The Killing last year and guessed both killers (although I thought was either/or rather than both) correctly after one of the first episodes (2 or 3). So I'm not sure if this criticism has been earned.

[zillabreeze]

 

Again, I think Jess might be the world's heaviest sleeper,

In this episode they made it a point to have an open wine bottle on the coffee table. I don't remember if the flashback to Ben coming in implied any adult beverages.

[nara]

No idea about S&L (don't watch this show), but I've binged The Killing last year and guessed both killers (although I thought was either/or rather than both) correctly after one of the first episodes (2 or 3). So I'm not sure if this criticism has been earned.

I'm curious about what brought you to this forum, since you don't watch the show. You are very welcome, of course, but what made you interested?

[FurryFury]

Oh, I tend to monitor a lot of stuff I don't watch if I'm bored. In this case, we've been debating ratings on Once Upon A Time forum compared to this show, so I've remembered it has Juliette Lewis (whom I actually like, but who seems to be failing in this show, judging by the comments) and decided to check up on it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by FurryFury

[Darian]

I feel kind of dirty for watching "Cornell Confidential," because I hate to encourage that kind of thing. Extra content is one thing, but a different ending is another. I was too weak to boycott, though, so I guess I was invested. It did get better as it went on.  

 

I'd watch a second season for more Cornell, if she's back. There was some development of the character, so I'd like to see what they do with her. And I like Juliette Lewis.      

[basiltherat]

Just watched the CC -- it was the best part of the whole damn series -- and thy put it on-line only?1 A lot of people who watch free TV aren't online or don't want to be bothered to look for something on the webs when they've been spending several months watching it on the TV.  I know that there are series on-line only that are good and successful, but they are always and just online.  Not half fish and fowl like this.  I'm mad at ABC.

[Gajalusabr]

It seems to me if the series is renewed the plan would be to follow a different criminal investigation each season. With Cornell as the detective.

[walnutqueen]

ABC can go fuck themselves before I watch the end of one of their TV shows on their website, or anywhere other than on my TV. 

[testardo]

 I watched the whole thing. Most of the time I wanted to shake Ben for being his own worst enemy. I was not the least surprised he confessed .he was actually a lot at fault. he cheated on his wife. BUT, His daughter was psycho and lets face it those kind of people child or not, sociopaths give some kind of hints before they are caught..  I also couldn't stand sour faced Cornell at first. I did like her at the end, and if they keep her human I could be persuaded to watch a new season with a new murder. Just lets not drraag it out so long.  The last couple of shows moved along but the beginning ones dragged. Did the Australian show end it the same with the father taking the blame for the child, and the stupid mother refusing to see the kid will most likely kill again. ?

[jackjill89]

The Cornell Confidentials added so much to the series, and that kind of ticked me off. I wish we could have at least another episode wrap up. I want to know what happened to Abby. Girl needs some serious interventions. Stat. 

 

I hated stupid Ben coming back for this episode. He didn't learn a damn thing about all the secrets and lies. 

[Andromeda]

"Didn't understand why they were talking about Ben like he was dead in the Cornell Confidential. I mean, yes, he's in prison, but he can still be proud of Nat and know about her accomplishments. Did he just cut everyone off? That's crazy too. "

My theory was they were trying to set up a second season without knowing whether they have Ryan Phillippe, so they tried to make the dialog work for either "in jail" or "died in jail". Does anyone know what's going on behind the scenes? Any chance of another season?

I was really annoyed with Ben confessing, even tho we knew he would. I think part of what bothers me is his sacrifice is so out of proportion to the danger she faced. This isn't a parent running into a burning building to save their kid. This is him throwing away his entire life and leaving Natalie essentially an orphan, to save Abby from what, a couple years in juvie? Not to mention he didn't even know Cornell suspected her at that point.

 

I know!! We kept saying that in our house -- she's a minor, she'll go to juvie, and he will get life. Plus he has another daughter. She was the only sensible one.

 

Props to any who figured out early it was Abby on their own. (I didn't realize this was based on an Australian show, so some may have peeked at that ending). I do think I'd like to rewatch, at least the Abby parts. I wasn't paying that close of attention early on.

 

I hope we get a second season. I could see it continuing with Cornell trying to put Abby away, which made me think maybe Abby might try to kill her. If they continue with the same characters, Abby would have to kill another kid along the way, at least.

 

Abby reminded me of The Bad Seed -- great book and movie about a fictional female child murderer. The first murder in that book was the girl being upset another kid in class won the "Best Penmanship" award, and killing him during a school trip to the lake, forcing him to drown and hitting him in the head with her tap shoes (metal reinforcement on shoes was a thing back then, they made a cool tap sound when you walked.)

 

I was frustrated that the parents would think they were at fault, when it was really more a roll of the dice. In The Bad Seed, the murderous sociopathy skipped a generation.

[zillabreeze]

 

Abby reminded me of The Bad Seed -- great book and movie about a fictional female child murderer.

No child killer could ever stack up next to Rhoda Penmark and that sugary, sing songy voice!  One of my favorites flicks of all time.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I agree that Ben was an idiot but the hotness somehow ended up outweighing the dumbness towards the end of the season and I'd be more than happy to watch Ryan in a few more seasons, unfortunately it looks like his time is done.  I didn't mind Juliette by the end of it but I was watching for Ryan.  It's a lot like Stacey Dash leaving Single Ladies, both incredibly hot (but not amazing) actors that I loved watching that end up leaving for Season 2.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[buckbuck]

Kudos to buckbuck, whose surmises from Episode 8 were apparently on the money

 

Many of us got there; lots of good sleuths here. :-)

[Sandman]

Tap shoes are still around; they're designed especially for tap dancing. I think it was meant to emphasize the contrast between Rhoda's exterior -- the sweet-faced blond girl with the braids, who sings and dances and smiles so prettily -- and her freezing, emaciated soul.

I don't know that Abby would get juvie automatically; it's not beyond the realm of the possible that she could have been tried as an adult, or even institutionalized for life. I'm also far from certain that psychiatric care would mean she would be protected by doctor-patient confidentiality. Medical privilege is not iron-clad; where a medical practitioner, including a psychiatrist, becomes aware that a patient could pose a danger to herself or himself or to others, the practitioner is required to report it. It may be (here's where I'm a little hazy) that there are also reporting requirements for knowledge of past crimes as well as present dangers.

[buckbuck]

I couldn't believe Christy was cool just hanging out and shopping with Abby after knowing she killed Tom on purpose and her father sacrificed his entire life to save her. And Christy was also cool with abandoning Natalie for her! Good thing there was that convenient rich nice uncle to take care of her. Christy is awful. Abby might kill her once she's old enough not to depend on her and gets a boyfriend or something that Christy doesn't like.

I'm still angry at what an idiot Ben is. With him, Jess, and Abby as suspects and no real evidence, there could easily have been no one convicted. They could have taken Abby to a shrink bound by confidentiality, and continued keeping a more stable home life for her and Nat. What bothers me about the ending is he sacrificed himself for nothing. There was no indication anyone was about to arrest Abby and even if they did she doesn't face much penalty at 12. If Cornell had come at him guns blazing insisting they CAN try her as an adult in this state and saying she had serious evidence, then his confession might have seemed more reasonable. As it is I feel like he metaphorically killed himself for no good reason and left everyone else, especially Nat, to deal with the fallout.

I don't want to watch him being an idiot for a whole nother season. But I would be happy if they brought him back for a cameo to reveal he'd been released from prison and Abby was in some kind of serious treatment center. I think the CC lines really only made sense if he died in jail, but since they didn't explicitly say so they could play it off either way if they wanted.

Oh, and putting any important part of a show online is lame. I wasn't watching the CC all the way through and I was annoyed this one was required.

 

Agreed about Christy. But as Ben ... or was it Dave? ... said, she's all about appearances. It just wouldn't do to have her daughter known as a psychopath. Natalie sure as hell deserved better.

 

I'm no lawyer and am not American so I'm not up on American law but I did find these two articles about juveniles committing murder.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/02/juve-f19.html which is from 2005 about a 12-year old in SOUTH Carolina who received 30 years in prison for murder. And http://www.wral.com/juvenile-murder-arrests-frightening-wake-da-says/12022427/ from 2013 about several murders committed by juveniles in North Carolina.  I suspect that the case of the 12-year old in South Carolina could be used as a precedent if Abby had been tried right away.

 

As for treatment, is there any effective treatment for psychopaths? I didn't think there was.

 

Also, I so agree about putting the ending online. Balls to that! Watching from Canada, I didn't even know there was more to the ending than what was shown. It was only from comments here that I found out. And I have no hope of seeing the actual clip as it can't be shown here.  Very bad form, IMO.

 

What was the deal with Jess's mother? Cornell made some comment to her in the interview room about being crazy like her mother, or something like that. Was that following from another online gem? I don't remember any mention being made before of Jess's mother so that seemed to come out of left field for me. I only remember Natalie's comment about her mom maybe not wanting to be like "Nanna" ... which never got explained, at least not on the broadcast show.

In this episode they made it a point to have an open wine bottle on the coffee table. I don't remember if the flashback to Ben coming in implied any adult beverages.

 

Didn't we find out that that was one of the nights that Jess had taken her meds? If she mixed them with alcohol, maybe she'd sleep deeper than she normally would.

I'd watch a second season for more Cornell, if she's back. There was some development of the character, so I'd like to see what they do with her. And I like Juliette Lewis.      

 

Me too, absolutely! I liked her in this role.

[truthaboutluv]

Props to any who figured out early it was Abby on their own. (I didn't realize this was based on an Australian show, so some may have peeked at that ending). I do think I'd like to rewatch, at least the Abby parts. I wasn't paying that close of attention early on.

 

 

What tipped me off to Abby likely being the one was when the show made a point of mentioning her eavesdropping and how it seemed like nothing happened in the house that she didn't know. She knew all her sister's little activities she was hiding from her parents so I figured there was no way she didn't know about the fight the night Tom died and more specifically what the fight was about, that Ben slept with Jess.

 

And then the show had also made the point of showing how close Ben had been with Tom, so I kind of just figured her motivation, if it was her, was probably that she was afraid Ben would leave her mom and them for Jess and Tom who he clearly loved so much. What further convinced me of this theory was her seemingly intense attachment to their remaining a family and being together. And I also figured she could work because the same things that made Ben likely as the killer, would work with her - for example, she would know where Natalie left the spare key to Jess' house she used when babysitting Tom, Tom knew and trusted her, so he'd go with her, she'd know where to get Ben's flashlight. 

[Palomar]

So, thanks to a nifty app, I was able to see the Cornell Confidential.  I'm not sure how anyone could see that and not think that Ben is dead.  Natalie is not angry with her father, she would be seeing him on a regular basis if he were still alive.  If he were still alive, he would have told her how proud he was of her himself and not needed Dave to do it.  Last of all, if he were still alive. Cornell would be talking about getting his conviction overturned and getting him out of jail instead of just clearing his name.  Can't see how he'd still be alive.

 

 

Unfortunately it did sound like Ben is no longer alive.  The thing is, the ONLY reason I can even see another season is for Ryan Phillipe to return as Ben and for them to drag out what happens next with new trials. Clearing someone's name is not as compelling as clearing someone who doesn't want to be cleared.  Not sure what happens in juvenile court, but I imagine not enough to make a season.  Unless they do another case for Cornell entirely but can't see that either.

[RedheadZombie]

Yeah, add me to the Ben is dead camp. Ryan Phillipe tweeted that the show is over, at least for him.

Here's to hoping he can be wooed or lies to twitter. But he also tweeted that he has other shows and movies in the works.

 

My mom swears she saw Ryan Phillipe a week or two ago on Kelly and Michael, and he stated that the show was renewed.  She said she also got the impression he'll be back next season.  I'm guessing she misunderstood.  If Ben's story continues, they wouldn't have tied up loose ends on line.

 

Can anyone tell me the ending to the Australian version?

 

Regarding the Australian version,  

Abby was the killer, but the character had a different name.  Just look it up on Wikipedia for the details.  I wonder if we'll see so many people guessing the ending next season, when it's not so easy to look up the Australian story line.

 

So, is next season a new case or Cornell goes for Abby? Because either way, they got me. The last few episodes hooked me.

 

My mom named it her new favorite show, then amended that to new favorite show after The Good Wife.  I can't say the same, but would probably tune in for another season.

[joshmaeks]

Cornell Confidential did not imply that Ben is now dead, either via murder or suicide.

I'm not sure why you think this. I thought CC made it quite clear that Ben is dead. Both because they speak about him in the past tense, and because of the the things they say about him.

[GracieK]

I feel for the people in Canada who can't get access to CC.  I would think they'd have a Canada specific portal for those viewers.  But I don't agree with everyone who had a problem going to the site to watch the CC's throughout and after the end.  Frankly, I spend much more time online than I do watching TV so it was nothing for me to go to the site and watch all of 2 or 3 minutes of additional footage.  I actually liked that there was more to go see after each show ended.  As for the CC being the end of the show.. I disagree with those calling that the ending.. I think what they showed on TV was the real end as intended.  I think the end was intended to be Ben sacrificing himself and the repercussions of that to his family, friends, and even Cornell.  The CC was more of an epilogue (and an epilogue can be viewed as an ending.. or commentary/wrap-up after an ending) and perhaps a jump start into a new season.  I would love to see Phillipe return and a new season get underway where Natalie tries to help Cornell put Abby behind bars and set Ben free (although I do agree with those who took the conversation to mean Ben is dead somehow.. they kept mentioning "clearing his name" rather than getting him set free from jail).. anyway they left wherever he is or whether he is dead or alive ambiguous enough so that if they could convince him to do another season, the door isn't shut on the idea.

[Chairperson Meow]

I think a new season could easily revolve around clearing Ben's name, getting him out of prison, getting Abby behind bars, and have Christy have a new sort of "family", like Ben did with Tom and Jess. Then Cornell would have a new case to investigate, kind of. It looked like over a year had passed. Christy was already moving on from Ben. Maybe she met a rich man with kids or a kid and Abby got jealous.

[dbklmt]

 

Abby reminded me of The Bad Seed -- great book and movie about a fictional female child murderer.

No child killer could ever stack up next to Rhoda Penmark and that sugary, sing songy voice!  One of my favorites flicks of all time.

The Australian series definitely used the character of the Bad Seed, Rhoda Penmark as the basis for Eva in the Australian and Abby in the American,  They even paid tribute to her in the final episode when Ian Corniell--his name in the Australian version--visits her during her confession which is being shown to the viewing audience.  When he confronts her on the way home she is eating an ice cream and wearing pigtails just as Rhoda did in the movie.  She looked exactly like Patty McCormick who played the role in the movie winning a well-deserved Oscar for Best Supporting Actress except she had red hair instead of blonde.  Piper Morrissey who played Eva in the Australian version was 100% better imo than the girl who played Abby.

 

 

Tap shoes are still around; they're designed especially for tap dancing. I think it was meant to emphasize the contrast between Rhoda's exterior -- the sweet-faced blond girl with the braids, who sings and dances and smiles so prettily -- and her freezing, emaciated soul. I don't know that Abby would get juvie automatically; it's not beyond the realm of the possible that she could have been tried as an adult, or even institutionalized for life. I'm also far from certain that psychiatric care would mean she would be protected by doctor-patient confidentiality. Medical privilege is not iron-clad; where a medical practitioner, including a psychiatrist, becomes aware that a patient could pose a danger to herself or himself or to others, the practitioner is required to report it. It may be (here's where I'm a little hazy) that there are also reporting requirements for knowledge of past crimes as well as present dangers.

 

Regarding what will happen if she was tried in the Australian version she gave her confession in front of Corniell and his assistant with Eva sitting with someone representing her.  When Eva says "I'm sorry.  None of this would have happened if I had just got Tom to the river" we hear someone crying and the mother who was nothing like the character depicted in the American version is revealed to be in the room on the far right side.  Corniell tells her as the legal guardian she has to sign the copy of the statement. 

 

That's when we see who is watching from behind the viewing window and its revealed to be Ben who has witnessed the confession and crying.  Know everyone loves Ryan Phillipe and he was good but Martin Henderson was so much better for me and believable as the dad although in both versions Ben just continued to do one stupid thing after another.

 

The final scene is back on the street where it all began.  There are two young girls riding bikes in the street when Corniell brings Ben home.  His final comment is "I'm not sure what the magistrate will decide for Eva.  See you Gunderlack.  Take care."  The girls ride away on their bikes.

The last shot is Ben looking at photos of his daughter Eva when Tasha (Natalie) comes in and takes his hand.  They hug and cry together.  Fade to black.

 

Much better ending imo than the crapfest they did in the American version and made it even worse by having the extra ending on the Cornell Confidential which like others I had never seen until I read here that the real ending was there.  Already deleted from my DVR series list as I won't be back for another season.

[Andromeda]

Tap shoes are still around; they're designed especially for tap dancing. I think it was meant to emphasize the contrast between Rhoda's exterior -- the sweet-faced blond girl with the braids, who sings and dances and smiles so prettily -- and her freezing, emaciated soul. I don't know that Abby would get juvie automatically; it's not beyond the realm of the possible that she could have been tried as an adult, or even institutionalized for life. I'm also far from certain that psychiatric care would mean she would be protected by doctor-patient confidentiality. Medical privilege is not iron-clad; where a medical practitioner, including a psychiatrist, becomes aware that a patient could pose a danger to herself or himself or to others, the practitioner is required to report it. It may be (here's where I'm a little hazy) that there are also reporting requirements for knowledge of past crimes as well as present dangers.

I know tap shoes are around, but back in the day, my dad nailed metal taps to my regular everyday shoes, so they would last longer. And make noise when you walked and pretended to be a tap dancer like Shirley Temple. In other words, the shoes weren't really dance shoes, just everyday shoes with taps. Rhoda had something similar on her regular shoes, which is why they made a handy murder weapon while on a school field trip. I highly recommend both the book and movie.

 

I agree Abby's fate is uncertain -- knowing she intentionally killed the boy makes all the difference, and I wonder if deep down Ben didn't figure that out himself, which is why he took the fall for her. If this was a novel, we'd be able to get insights into his thinking, maybe recalling instances where he could see that Abby was perfectly capable of murder.

I liked the quick explanation with flashbacks that Cornell provided.

I think the end was intended to be Ben sacrificing himself and the repercussions of that to his family, friends, and even Cornell.  The CC was more of an epilogue (and an epilogue can be viewed as an ending.. or commentary/wrap-up after an ending) and perhaps a jump start into a new season.

I agree, it's more of an epilogue -- and a set up for a second season. It was the first CC I really felt I needed to watch! I haven't seen the others, but if I rewatch the show, I would add those in as I go.

 

I'd be interested in the Australian version, too. Is that available in the U.S. anywhere?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Andromeda

[dbklmt]

I'd be interested in the Australian version, too. Is that available in the U.S. anywhere?

 

  Yes it's on Netflix and it's only 6 episodes.

[slasherboy]

So, whaddya think of yer monkey now?

[chlban]

The Australian series definitely used the character of the Bad Seed, Rhoda Penmark as the basis for Eva in the Australian and Abby in the American,  They even paid tribute to her in the final episode when Ian Corniell--his name in the Australian version--visits her during her confession which is being shown to the viewing audience.  When he confronts her on the way home she is eating an ice cream and wearing pigtails just as Rhoda did in the movie.  She looked exactly like Patty McCormick who played the role in the movie winning a well-deserved Oscar for Best Supporting Actress except she had red hair instead of blonde.  Piper Morrissey who played Eva in the Australian version was 100% better imo than the girl who played Abby.

 

 

 

Regarding what will happen if she was tried in the Australian version she gave her confession in front of Corniell and his assistant with Eva sitting with someone representing her.  When Eva says "I'm sorry.  None of this would have happened if I had just got Tom to the river" we hear someone crying and the mother who was nothing like the character depicted in the American version is revealed to be in the room on the far right side.  Corniell tells her as the legal guardian she has to sign the copy of the statement. 

 

That's when we see who is watching from behind the viewing window and its revealed to be Ben who has witnessed the confession and crying.  Know everyone loves Ryan Phillipe and he was good but Martin Henderson was so much better for me and believable as the dad although in both versions Ben just continued to do one stupid thing after another.

 

The final scene is back on the street where it all began.  There are two young girls riding bikes in the street when Corniell brings Ben home.  His final comment is "I'm not sure what the magistrate will decide for Eva.  See you Gunderlack.  Take care."  The girls ride away on their bikes.

The last shot is Ben looking at photos of his daughter Eva when Tasha (Natalie) comes in and takes his hand.  They hug and cry together.  Fade to black.

 

Much better ending imo than the crapfest they did in the American version and made it even worse by having the extra ending on the Cornell Confidential which like others I had never seen until I read here that the real ending was there.  Already deleted from my DVR series list as I won't be back for another season.

Sounds like  a much better ending. I really didn't care for this one, since I firmly believe that, at worst, that kid would have served a few years in a mental institution. Which would be a shame because she was clearly a sociopath and should be locked away for life. Either way if you are wanting to be "good parent" covering for your kid is not exactly the way to do it. Great lesson, that. 

 

The other  point that was ludicrous was these two geniuses decide their bad parenting is the cause of Abby being a sociopath. So, I know, mom take off for parts unknown with psycho kid and dad turn yourself in for her crime. Wait...........are we forgetting something? Oh yeah, dump the other kid, the apparently normal one (so far at least) at her uncles?  

 

Seriously? Good to know you have learned your parenting lessons. That one certainly won't have any abandonment issues now.

 

I was brought around at the end of this series but the ending was just too ludicrous. I get that it probably has more to do with Ryan not wanting to come back, but that is really no excuse. I am sure they could have figured out another way to kill him off before next season.

Edited May 4, 2015 by chlban

[tomatoflyer]

I thought it was Abby all along because she always seemed "off" to me. She seemed emotionally immature for a 12 year old, knew just how to manipulate everyone into thinking she was just aa sweet normal girl.

[slasherboy]

 his unfortunate incarceration.

 

Anthony?

 

 

Just watched the CC -- it was the best part of the whole damn series -- and thy put it on-line only?1 A lot of people who watch free TV aren't online or don't want to be bothered to look for something on the webs when they've been spending several months watching it on the TV.  I know that there are series on-line only that are good and successful, but they are always and just online.  Not half fish and fowl like this.  I'm mad at ABC.

 

I suspect ABC was trying to be cutting edge with this new technology we call the internet.

 

 

Jess is still a whacka-doo, right?

 

Also, even if Ben gets cleared of murder, he'd do time for destroying evidence by burning Abby's bloody shoes.  Or maybe they'd give him time served.

[Andromeda]

  Yes it's on Netflix and it's only 6 episodes.

Thanks, dbklmt! Great! Something to watch this summer.

[Sammich63]

Anthony?

 

 

 

I suspect ABC was trying to be cutting edge with this new technology we call the internet.

 

 

Jess is still a whacka-doo, right?

 

Also, even if Ben gets cleared of murder, he'd do time for destroying evidence by burning Abby's bloody shoes.  Or maybe they'd give him time served.

This brings up another question for me. Wouldn't the mom also end up in trouble after Natalie testifies that Abby confessed to her parents, and Christy leaves town with her?

I figured it was Abby when the only time she showed any emotion regarding Tom's death was when she found out he was her half brother. I started paying closer attention to her and realized how she was always aware what was going on most of the time. Her attachment to Ben also seemed s bit OTT.

[Chaos Theory]

Ok the show suddenly got interesting.   What can i say I like these weird little turns and I like creepy kids.  Plus I like it when parents "make the ultimate sacrifice" I know I know it was stupid as hell but still.......  I like this show now.  

 

However....I refuse to watch tv online unless it is netflix so Cornell Confidential better not have anything vital.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Morbs]

Ryan is in talks for a Netflix Marvel show.  I think the plan was always for him to leave.

[LeGrandElephant]

I was frustrated that the parents would think they were at fault, when it was really more a roll of the dice. In The Bad Seed, the murderous sociopathy skipped a generation.

They weren't at fault before but they are now. They've simultaneously taught Abby they'll cover for her and ignore her creepiness, and also put her in an unstable environment with only one person to provide supervision. If she kills someone else, it'll be the parents fault.

I still can't really believe that Nat wouldn't come forward right away on her own.

[LeGrandElephant]

I'm not so convinced a kid like Abby is a lost cause who will always be a sociopathic killer. There's a lot we don't know about brain development, and I've read about children who committed murder, served time, and then got out of jail and went on to live productive lives. Even if you assume being a sociopath is a fixed thing and you can't teach a sociopath empathy, you can teach them it's not worth the consequences to kill people. But skipping town and covering for her crime is exactly the wrong way to do that!

 

E.g., these two 15 year old girls beat one of their mothers to death (premeditated), served 5 years in jail, and apparently both went on to live productive adult lives and not kill anyone else (... that we know of): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Parker  and   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Perry

Edited May 5, 2015 by LeGrandElephant

[Fable]

Color me surprised that Abby was actually the killer.  I did find her behavior was often strange, but I figured, because she was such a little snoop, she must have known something.  I didn't think network TV would have the guts to go with a premeditated murder of a child by another child (an accident perhaps, but premeditated?).  I never would have guessed it.  One reason I say this is because another show that I watch, Hannibal, which is a far more psychologically horrifying and gruesome show, pulled an episode out of its rotation because of children killing children.

 

I agree all the signs were there with Abby, but I still didn't believe it until about the last 10 minutes or so of the episode.  I was sure Abby hurt him, albeit accidentally, and that someone else came along and killed him.  Good job to all who guessed otherwise. 
.

Convictions cannot be overturned for dead people, to my knowledge

 

 

Yes they can if the evidence suggests otherwise.  There are many such cases, too many to link.  Google search overturned posthumous convictions.  

 

Is it still called "overturning a conviction" after the death of the convicted person? It IS possible to obtain posthumous exoneration.

 

 

I'm not sure it's much difference, just a mincing of words.

[Andromeda]

I'm not so convinced a kid like Abby is a lost cause who will always be a sociopathic killer. There's a lot we don't know about brain development, and I've read about children who committed murder, served time, and then got out of jail and went on to live productive lives. Even if you assume being a sociopath is a fixed thing and you can't teach a sociopath empathy, you can teach them it's not worth the consequences to kill people. But skipping town and covering for her crime is exactly the wrong way to do that!

 

E.g., these two 15 year old girls beat one of their mothers to death (premeditated), served 5 years in jail, and apparently both went on to live productive adult lives and not kill anyone else (... that we know

of): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Parker  and   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Perry

Interesting stuff, LeGrandElephant. I thought the story sounded familiar when I started to read the articles -- then I read that it was made into a movie, which I've seen. I had no idea Anne Perry was one of the two girls!

 

Considering there are sociopaths living among us, many with careers (guess which careers appeal to sociopaths -- hint, it's not social work), I do agree that they can be taught to follow the rules and not commit murder.

[LeGrandElephant]

I read the book The Psychopath Test, and I don't remember it coming to many conclusions in general, just discussing interesting issues. The book discussed a questionnaire that helps doctors asses sociopathy, and if I recall correctly, the author talked about how almost all of the questions on it have to do with childhood behavior - leaving no room for someone who was a callous unempathetic child to grow and change. 

 

I also just thought of this episode of This American Life, which apparently has a transcript online: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/425/transcript 

Act One was about a guy who had been violently sexually assaulted when he was a child, by an older kid (a teenager). As an adult, he tracked down the guy who did it. Obviously, we never know 100% whether or not to believe this account, but it stuck in my mind. The podcast essentially said that the perp, as an adult, now felt remorse for what he had done and had never attacked anyone else (if you believe him, of course, but there were apparently no rumors or anything and he came clean to his loved ones about having done it when he was a teenager). The part that really stuck in my mind was the perpetrator saying this: "I know that until I was in my 30s I didn't really believe other people's feelings were real. I didn't think anyone really mattered but me. Maybe that was it. Maybe if I'd gone to therapy I could have come up with the answer. All I can say is that I'd never done it before and I never did it again. And if there was one thing I could go back in my life and change, that would be it." 

 

Now, of course he could have been lying. But it sounds like as a kid/teenager he had a complete lack of empathy, not believing other people's feelings were real - and then somehow by his 30s, he had changed, and did have empathy. 

 

Anyway, these are just anecdotes I randomly heard in podcasts or read online, so they really don't prove anything. But overall I'm thinking that, given a kid that killed someone callously, there are at least two ways it could go that could be good outcomes. (1) The kid could never develop real human empathy, but could just learn that its not worth the consequences of hurting people, and channel their cunningness into their jobs and stuff. (2) The kid could actually develop real human empathy, feel remorse, and try to live a good life to make up for what they did. 

 

Of course, (3) keep on killing whenever it seems convenient, is also a possibility. But I don't see why people are so quick to assume #3 is absolutely the only way it could go. A lot of murders are committed by people who are overly emotional rather than unemotional, and they lose their temper - that seems just as likely to recur, but we usually don't take the attitude that kids with a temper are a lost cause. (I would guess that way more violent crimes are committed by people who lose their temper or have poor impulse control than by people who are scheming sociopaths.)

 

I suspect the answer is that the cases that tend to make the news are serial killers who did all this creepy callous stuff as kids. I bet no one tracks the kids that committed one callous crime, went to juvie, and then had their records sealed and turned out fine. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by LeGrandElephant

[LeGrandElephant]

 

Considering there are sociopaths living among us, 

 

Wow, that article is really interesting!

[dixieland80]

I agree that the CC heavily implied that Ben is dead. My thought on getting the conviction overturned- I'm no lawyer, but can you try someone for a crime when someone else has already been convicted of it? My guess is they need to clear Ben's name before they can legally go after Abby.

[truthaboutluv]

One reason I say this is because another show that I watch, Hannibal, which is a far more psychologically horrifying and gruesome show, pulled an episode out of its rotation because of children killing children.

 

 

That episode was pulled because I believe it was scheduled to air the week after the Boston Marathon bombings and the network thought it would be insensitive. 

[sjohnson]

I have to agree if you're convinced that Abby wouldn't face any consequences dire enough for Ben to make the sacrifice, the end may be unsatisfying. For my part, I believe that Abby could well be tried as an adult and sent to prison. Further, I'm afraid I'm quite convinced that mentally ill people are very often left untreated in prisons. Much of the therapy is provided is much like prison food: The cheapest possible thing stuff that can pass for the real thing. Twelve step programs can provide valuable social support but they aren't therapy, no matter how often judges order people into them. (Or into Christian counseling.) Sociopathy or psychopathy may sound like real things, but I think they can just be jargon that is a functional equivalent for ignorant, reactionary ideas like inborn sin, or bad seed/blood/genes, or demonic possession or some sort of metaphysical evil that is somehow freely chosen, without any causes or cures and an inevitable outcome. I think there's a great deal of humbug designed to excuse barbarous penal systems. 

 

As for suffering consequences, the real question for the people who can't accept Ben had reasons is why they don't favor Abby's execution? 

 

And lastly, Cornell as Javert...Javert had a lucid moment and killed himself. I don't think Cornell is stupid any more than I think Ben is stupid, but I don't think she's unambiguously good, because of the merciless rigidity with which she upholds her largely unexamined notions of rectitude. Putting her daughter away wasn't the hardest thing she ever did, though I'm quite sure it was embarrassing. The hardest things of course were those too hard for her to do. She couldn't bring herself to deliver a serious warning to Kevin, and she couldn't be troubled to have someone keep an eye on him, even though she knew about his background, and she couldn't take the blame for his torture/attempted murder acting out. But she could come up with a way to blame Ben for being kidnapped and tortured. 

[LeGrandElephant]

I have to agree if you're convinced that Abby wouldn't face any consequences dire enough for Ben to make the sacrifice, the end may be unsatisfying. For my part, I believe that Abby could well be tried as an adult and sent to prison. 

 

I admit, I was completely surprised by the article upthread about a 12 year old being tried as an adult in South Carolina and sentenced to 30 years in prison. I thought the minimum age was more like 14. Maybe they should have mentioned that in the show. I think having someone specifically indicate they were planning on trying Abby as an adult would have made Ben's sacrifice seem more poignant instead of stupid. As is, he didn't even know they suspected her, so there was no real reason for him to confess. Maybe wait and think a bit, dude? 

 

As for suffering consequences, the real question for the people who can't accept Ben had reasons is why they don't favor Abby's execution? 

 

I don't understand this sentence. If I can't accept Ben had good reasons, that means I think Abby probably wouldn't be punished all that harshly. Why does that mean I should WANT kids like Abby to be executed? 

 

Did you mean something like: if "sociopathic" kids are lost causes who will definitely kill again, why don't we execute them? 

 

Well, my opinion as I said above is that we have no way of knowing if they are really lost causes and I think we should do our best to give them a chance - to teach them about consequences, get them some therapy, and keep an eye on them, but not lock them up and throw away the key.