S03.E10: The Dead

[whoknowswho]

Wait, they're speaking French? I thought they were speaking Frankish, the same way the Saxons are shown speaking Old English.

They are speaking some type of French, because I understood it.  I actually understood the Frankish speakers better than the Old English.

[rozen]

Gisela is also beyond naive if she thought she got to wait around and marry whoever she wanted.  Daddy apparently doesn't have any other heirs so she needs to produce a few and Rollo would be able to protect the throne with Gisela on it and hopefully father children closer to Granddad to keep it beyond that.

 

Well, the very early episodes did establish that Gisela was kind of ruling from the wings, when her father excused himself from Odo's demands to listen to her thoughts first. There's also a difference between being married off to proper catholic royalty in hopes of re-uniting Charlamagne's empire and being shuttled off to the very enemy you risked your life bringing a holy banner to rally against. It's an alliance forged out of his pathetic weakness, I imagine that if she had to go out like some prize broodmare she'd rather they'd gone down fighting properly instead of hiding behind their bullion and praying for the best. 

 

Besides, it's a stupid offer with no guarantees. If Rollo was like Horik he'd take Gisela, rape her every day, and still betray them in spring, probably with little Gisela heathens in tow to gouge priests's eyes out. He requested no concessions, took no one hostage, just handed over everything of worth to him, hoping that Rollo hates his brother as much as he hates his. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by rozen

[Sakura12]

Was it the Emperor or Odo that came up with this plan. I think that Gisela said it was Odo's doing since she refuses to marry him, then he convinced the Emperor that it's for the best and probably that she's making him look weak. 

[Ohwell]

Princess Mushmouth tickled me when she was going off in front of Rollo.  I so wanted him to just take off his gear and just stand there, shirtless and not say a word.  She's growing on me with her feistiness, and I think she and Rollo will be good for each other.  I want to see some hatesex scenes next season.

 

Did Odo live before or after the Marquis de Sade? 

 

I love Badass Bjorn and I'm looking to seeing more of him next season.

 

Speaking of next season, there's still a lot of cleaning up to do:  Ecbert, Aethelwulf, Judith, Kalf, Aella.  Their stories should continue to be interesting. 

 

I was kind of underwhelmed by Ragnar's big, season-ending reveal to Floki about Athelstan's death.  Otherwise, it was a great finale and I can't wait until 2016.

[bluebonnet]

 

 

Did Odo live before or after the Marquis de Sade? 

 

 

Nearly a millenium apart.  

[becauseIsaidso]

The second I heard Floki say something about Ragnar wanting him/Floki to build him/Ragnar one last boat, I got the image of a Viking boat, carrying the body, set to sea aflame and in a nanosecond the thought of Magic Mushrooms came in (a la Thorsten when Floki was charged to kill someone close to Ragnar in order to prove his loyalty to Jarl Borg. PERFECT.....They must have (based on the use of the stuff with Thorsten) some idea of how long the state of catatonia would last and, IIRC, as in when Floki brought the magic brew to Rollo, he referred to the healing properties of the stuff - jump ahead a season or two and we have a not-so-dead Ragnar jumping out of the coffin and the oh-so-perfect "I win" moment. 

 

 I understand not telling those emotionally closest to Ragnar (Lagertha, Rollo, Floki) about the ruse - their lack of grief stricken reaction to the 'death' would have been a dead (pun intended) giveaway - Ragnar was wise in not underestimating his opponents powers of observation. As next in line to the throne, Bjorn needed to prove his princeling chops, and did so admirably - that actor's done a very good job of character immersion - well done. Warriors who are relatively emotionally removed from Ragnar (he's their King, but not their best-bud-for-hitting-the-mead-bars-after-a-hard-day's-raiding) would be far less likely to display an out of sync emotional state than those who are closest to Ragnar, and thus be the best to serve as the pall bearers, and the most likely, having seen Ragnar's battle strategies in action MANY times in the past, to react properly when Ragnar-in-the-box pops out to win the day. This was the ultimate test for Bjorn - how to carry out his father's plans without giving into the temptation to let those closest to him (Lagertha & Rollo) in on the secret....well done, all around. It is a lesson battle state kings must learn.

 

I especially loved Rollo's reaction and brief greeting to his bride to be....I have no doubt he understood the gist of her speech, if not the actual verbage, and simply decided to go for it since they had had an earlier eyeball to eyeball connection across the battlements and Rollo is, after all, a Berserker....something I think Giesela can easily grasp (literally and figuratively)....and appreciate.

 

OK....some aspects of BDSM can be downright hot and sexy...but....with Odo? (now, Rollo....well....yum...there could be a definite temptation factor there!)   But, Odo? Not so much. I have to wonder what the woman's motive really is...just a kink, or some deeper, darker, political motivation of whomever it is that is controlling her.  More fodder for the next season.

 

And.....MORE LAGERTHA!!!!!!

 

I just hope TPTB are not using the time between seasons to do some sort of rehab on Kalf....once a traitor, always a traitor.

[Ohwell]

Nearly a millenium apart.

Oh, I know.  It was just my (rather lame) attempt at humor.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Am I the only one, that cackled at Princess struggle running away from Ragnar?

That will never not be funny to me.

[Ankai]

I think that this was my favorite season finale of this show. The first one seemed like simply all setup to something; it being the ninth episode did not help. The second one kind of undercut the drama that had come before with Ragnar's big gambit scheme. Here, I was expecting a scheme and the show made only minimal effort to hide that. I found it pretty obvious that he would pop out of the coffin, though I had no idea what he would do after that. The legitimacy of his conversion may have been undercut by his killing of a clergyman, though that could have partly so that the other Vikings there could tell the ones outside and assuage any fears about him being a real Christian. 

 

My French is rusty, but that sounded like pretty modern French. The actor playing Odo is, I believe, French Canadian. And Morgane Polanski is French. Again, like her mushmouth, maybe she got into a tiff with the director and said to herself that she would not be speaking this Frankish babble and just spoke French.

 

Also, the main soldier looked kind of handsome with his helmet off. That nose-guard on his helmet that he had been wearing since he first appeared made his face look goofy.

[Ohwell]

I kept wondering where I've seen the translator, Sinric, since he has such a distinctive face even with all the makeup.  I finally realized that he played Donal on "Ballykissangel."

[bandella]

I was going to give him a Chuck Bass pass, but I like this explanation better, especially since I ended up loathing Chuck Bass after he traded Blair for a hotel.  These days, I'm willing to overlook most things in the first three episodes until the show finds its footing and the network finishes its first round of  interfering with character and plot decisions.

I definitely think that's part of the issue because let's face it: those first two or three episodes were...not great, or at least I didn't think so, so it's entirely possible that the show was just trying out different things because the characters hadn't really been fleshed out yet. They were on paper, I'm sure, but I like to pretend to be a writer myself sometimes, and the most detailed character bio in the world can end up meaning nothing once you actually put that character into play and have them start interacting with others and the world around them. 

 

I think another issue at play here is that people are generally conditioned not to like problematic characters. I've always gravitated toward the more, shall we say, "difficult" characters, the ones who can make you root for them at one point and then want to strangle them the next. One of my favorite characters ever, even before the movies, is Loki from the Marvel comics. I like the myth and movie versions as well, but the comic book version is just...he's a great big bag of dicks, basically, and all the emotional baggage and psychological damage in the world can't make up for the fact that he's a horrible person. He's an abusive, manipulative, misogynistic know-it-all with serious control issues, but damned if he can't also show some good qualities now and then that keep me from just outright hating him. 

 

Anyway, I think that's part of a lot of people's issues with Rollo. He's capable of being both good and bad, often to extreme degrees, and those worst qualities make us feel kind of guilty for liking him and wanting to see him succeed. That doesn't mean we have to excuse his bad deeds or apologize for them; they are what they are. It's OK to like such a character. It doesn't mean you approve of their wrongdoings. 

[Babalooie]

All day I've been pondering the purpose of the scene with Odo's Dungeon.  The only way that it could tie in so far is to show his penchant for torture that could play a part in future battles and the taking of prisoners.  Other than that theory, I got nuthin'.

 

I assume that this show won't be a factor in the Emmys due to it being a foreign show, a fact that I read on another site.  Hopefully, it will be duly recognized during the European and Canadian awards seasons.  I strongly feel that Fimmel and Skarsgard both deserve nominations (at least).  There was some fine acting coming out of both of them,  Hubby and I both teared up at Floki's soliloquy talking to Ragnar in his "one last boat".  Ragnar's burial scene with Athelstan was gut-wrenching.

[magdalene]

 

I'm blanking here.  I remember Rollo got a good Seer-deal on the naked dancing on beach one.  I remember the bear marries the princess too.  But I don't remember the bear marrying the princess being bad for Ragnar.  How was that phrased?

green, during that episode when they were all getting their prophesies from the seer part of Ragnar's  was that the bear would marry the princess and that would be bad for him (Ragnar). I distinctly remember that because at the time I thought the seer meant Bjorn and something he does in the future, and I was all huh?

[Shermie]

I assumed Sinric must have been an dwarf in LOTR or the Hobbit movies. He just has that look.

Good finale and yes, it sucks that it's over already, but these 10-episode series are great at telling a tight story. When a drama lasts 22 episodes, there's a lot of filler and pointless plot tangents. And it takes a lot of time and money to tell this kind of epic. So I'm good with keeping it tight, once a year.

While we know Gisla (weird, history calls her Gisela) will warm to Rollo, right now we know Odomis a bad choice and Rollo is a good one, but,she doesn't. Of course she's repulsed by this oddball whose people wear wolf pelts, fight like crazed lunatics, speak a different language, and have a strange religion and odd customs. It would be bad enough to be married off to some Frankish noble, but to this complete foreigner? Terrifying.

[Ria]

right now we know Odomis a bad choice and Rollo is a good one, but,she doesn't.

 

Odo is a bad choice (apparently that was the sole purpose of the dungeon scene, since he's been relatively decent and clever otherwise)  but Rollo's character is mixed. Besides the slave rape, at various times he's also betrayed his brother, been a drunk and frequently not treated Siggy with respect.

 

I have to had it to the show though. As much as I love many of the characters, I still almost never root for the Vikings. Again last night I was firmly on the side of the French. Most of my favorite characters are Vikings, yet I'm not on their side. I don't think there are many shows that can pull this off as well as this show has done.

[WatchrTina]

And he is still in the dog house with Helga. Ah, the poor Flokmeister was having a bad eye liner day.

Someone remind me -- what is Helga upset about? That he confessed to killing Athelstan? If so, I'm surprised because she wasn't close to Athelstan (I don't think) and it seems to me she would side with Floki in all things. She knows how Floki hates Christianity. I'm really surprised she hasn't used that as an excuse to rationalize Floki's behavior (as so many wives would do when their husbands fuck up). Edited April 25, 2015 by WatchrTina

[jnymph]

I fucking loved every. Single. Second.

I can't believe my favorite character (Athelstan)was killed off & this show is still my favorite- never thought "Rome" would be replaced!

I screamed at the end "You killed Athelstan"

Fuck me - that was intense!

More coherent thoughts to post tomorrow....still reeling

Did I mention I love "Vikings"?

Edited April 25, 2015 by jnymph

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I assume that this show won't be a factor in the Emmys due to it being a foreign show, a fact that I read on another site.  Hopefully, it will be duly recognized during the European and Canadian awards seasons.  I strongly feel that Fimmel and Skarsgard both deserve nominations (at least).  There was some fine acting coming out of both of them,  Hubby and I both teared up at Floki's soliloquy talking to Ragnar in his "one last boat".  Ragnar's burial scene with Athelstan was gut-wrenching.

I think they are eligible...I watched a panel at the Emmy musuem with the cast (minus Travis)...they were lobbying hard to get their make-up and costume people nominated (it was actually really sweet...they turned every question around to how great their crew was).

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Rollo's character is mixed. Besides the slave rape, at various times he's also betrayed his brother, been a drunk and frequently not treated Siggy with respect.

 

Can't disagree with any of this but I think this is going "Taming of the Shrew" or Kiss Me Gisela....he's going to loosen her up and be pragmatic (I don't think the show will let him rape her, regardless of what might have happened back then)....and she's going to make him embrace Christianity...

[benteen]

50 Shades of Odo...the bestseller NO ONE wanted to see.

[bandella]

Someone remind me -- what is Helga upset about?  That he confessed to killing Athelstan?  If so, I'm surprised because she wasn't close to Athelstan (I don't think) and it seems to me should would side with Floki in all things.  She know how Floki hates Christianity.  I'm really surprised she hasn't used that as an excuse dto rationalize Floki's behavior (as so many wives would do when their husbands fuck up).

I think it's been a long time coming, and Helga's just finally had it. First, he freaks out when she tells him she's pregnant, but hey, that's not so uncommon. Then he wants to name their kid Angrboda, who, no matter how much I sympathize with her (she really got the shaft), was not seen as anything remotely admirable in Norse myth. Then he hides away from Helga and the baby, claiming that he can't be happy with her because she makes him happy (...wha?) and can barely wait to go raiding just to get away from the two of them. Between him choking her and then gleefully confessing to the murder of someone very close to Ragnar and knowing that Ragnar could very well get revenge on Floki by killing someone close to him (re: Helga or the baby), I think she just finally had enough. 

 

That, and while I have no doubt Helga believes in the gods and all, she seems kind of weirded out by Floki's increasing religious zealotry. So there's that, too.

[LittleIggy]

I want to see Rollo dance naked on the beach.

[Lillybee]

I loved the Viking funeral dirge especially in contrast to the Christian music. Go Vikings..

[GaiusB]

This episode showed the best and the worst from Vikings. Atmosphere and music were excellent, but story was not. It is the main weakness of Vikings that its season arcs are always same. Ragnar will win because he is a trickster with impenetrable plot armor and his enemies are idiots.

 

I think those negative reactions to Odo´s litlle kinks are bit unfair. If he was younger and better looking, the reactions from many female viewers would be "you can whip me anytime". Like in 50 Shades of Grey. Not to mention he was very 21th century gentleman about it, with a consent and a safewords. For me if they wanted to make him a bad guy, it was  a failure. If a man like him was truly evil sadist, he would torture peasant girls in his dungeon reguraly and he would not ask them if they are willing.

 

Somewhere in this episode Rollo and Gisla become the characters i am looking forward most for the next season.

Edited April 25, 2015 by GaiusB

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I think those negative reactions to Odo´s litlle kinks are bit unfair. If he was younger and better looking, the reactions from many female viewers would be "you can whip me anytime". Like in 50 Shades of Grey. Not to mention he was very 21th century gentleman about it, with a consent and a safewords. For me if they wanted to make him a bad guy, it was  a failure. If a man like him was truly evil sadist, he would torture peasant girls in his dungeon reguraly and he would not ask them if they are willing.

 

First off I don't know anyone who liked 50 Shades whose opinion counts to me, most people I know who attempted to read it said it was awful...not because of BDSM but because of the writing and the plot.

 

The 50 Shades moment was a bit gratuitous but I think it was an attempt to show a more negative side of the French Culture (yes, they are more advanced but it isn't always a good thing)....Gisela is right the Vikings are brutes and that limited what they could accomplish...this show (to me) is about how the world was changing how a multitude of small fiefdoms was moving toward large kingdoms (and eventually democracies).  Oddly Scandanavia turned from vicous raiders to peaceful democratic socialists.  For all his drama Ragnar gets that the world is changing and he's trying to get his people in a better place to benefit from that.

 

or it's foreshadowing for something involving one of the female characters for next year...

[Captanne]

BecauseIsaidso, I loved your post until you got to the "BDSM can sometimes be cool" because, no.  It's not my scene and I can't agree with your post in its entirety.  All the rest of it?  Oh, yeah.  Great stuff!!!

 

I found the BDSM stuff very, very random and (unless it's address next season) completely off topic.  I don't need to know what Odo gets up to in the bedroom unless it affects the plot.  This show isn't called "Parisian Leadership in the year 900AD-ish." it's called "Vikings".)

 

OTH, I completely agree with GaiusB that critics (here and elsewhere) are being unfair to Odo by going all "ew, he's old and wrinkly" when, if he was some young hottie the same folks who bought tickets to the BDSM movie would be all "whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks!"

 

So, feh on it.

 

ANYway, I agree with just about everything you amazing folks have written about the finale.

 

I even LOVED the subtle last two lines -- "Floki?"  "You killed Athelstan."  

 

And, scene.

 

OH FUCK YEAH.

[Ohwell]

Looking to next season, I wonder how long Ragnar lets Floki stew in his own juice before he gets flamed.

[green]

I think those negative reactions to Odo´s litlle kinks are bit unfair. If he was younger and better looking, the reactions from many female viewers would be "you can whip me anytime". Like in 50 Shades of Grey.

 

And I think to believe that "many females" think perversion and masochism (and the lack of self-worth it implies) at the hands of a better looking man is just fine and dandy is more than a bit unfair.

 

I wish they had staged Athelstan's death a bit different to imply there was no way Ragnar wouldn't automatically think Floki did it given Floki's comments over the years.  Maybe shown more violent threats from others -- as opposed to a few ground spittings -- over the tossed away wrist torque.  A few red herring Vikings threatening Athelstan with death with Ragnar watching.  A small thing but a cool thing maybe.  Would have made the last lines uttered for this season even more chilling.

[Captanne]

I'm not sure either is more "unfair" than the other -- since both are vast generalizations.  Take the "bdsm" out of it, though, and Gaiusb seems to be baulking at agism which I agree with.

 

I could be misinterpreting his or her message, though.

 

In other news, did post-Trojan Coffin Ragnar appear to be better?  He is all toasty-roasty on the boat but he seems to be on the mend.  Amazing man.

 

ETA:  Someone up thread asked why Helga is so pissed off with Floki -- my rationale is that she's finally out from under some demon's spell and sees the loathsome creature for what it is.  He might as well wear a neon sign that says, "Hello, my name is Floki and I'm the Bad Guy."

 

But, more to the point, she's been really off her feed since she discovered Floki killed Athelstan.  You can tolerate a lot but sometimes "my lover and father of my child is a murderer" goes beyond the pale.  Also?  Throat strangling.

 

Did anyone else notice the sweet, sweet way Floki made his whole farewell speech to Ragnar, All About Floki?  Narcissism 101.

 

EETA:  On the other hand, what I really like about the other characters they are treating better than they treat Floki's character is that they are evolving and we're watching.  These are not obvious or fore-gone conclusions.  Frex, Lagertha is languishing on the sidelines, pretty much (especially compared to her first season role) and is frustrated but bides her time.  She could have been written blowing a gasket.  Bjorn is growing up and well into manhood.  Ragnar depended on him and he came through.  Both the character and actor are spreading their wings under responsibility and it's beautiful to see.  Bjorn's character, since we've known him since his childhood, could have gone any way the writers wanted it to.  This is really neat to watch unfold.  

 

Then there's Rollo.  He has betrayed Ragnar before by siding with the enemy (climax of series one, yeah?) so this move of his is completely in

character but it's slightly irrational on his part.  So, that's complicated.  He could have just waited for his brother to come in the spring and try to sack Paris again but, instead, goes for the rich girl and a good life in a foreign country.  Although he's got a history of siding with the enemy, he didn't have to this time.  It says a lot about his character without some Exposition Fairy explaining it to us in words of one syllable.

 

I love that.  Love it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Captanne

[jnymph]

After digesting:

The end scene was gorgeous, the ship sailing in the night, everyone asleep except for Floki (obviously fretting over all events) Ragnar softly calling his name..........

"You killed Athelstan." & the look of terror on Floki's face was my personal EVERYTHING !

IMO Gustaf Skarsgard was incredible. From his speech to Ragnar in the coffin to the final scene......brilliant.

I adore how Athelstans presence continues to be felt.

Was the final plot perfection? No. But the actors / scenery / music etc transport me to the time & place; hence I'm able to shrug off some of the things that are perhaps exaggerated.

Wow another year to wait!!!!

Will Lagertha finally enjoy some Kalf liver?

Will Bjorn survive his upcoming Gentle Ben encounter?

Will Rollo dance nekkid on the beach enticing the Princess to loosen her harsh attitude about him ?

Will we go back to Wessex & enjoy the fun times in the hot tub some more?

WILL RAGNAR EVEN SURVIVE?

Because I can't stop thinking about it & it can't be said enough:

"You killed Athelstan."< - my everything !

Edited April 25, 2015 by jnymph

[lidarose9]

Some thoughts:

 

1. Re: Rollo and the rape. These people raped and pillaged routinely. It was their job. They did not see it as morally wrong, but as their destiny and their right. Their world was "us versus them." Rape may have been a crime within their own people, but not for outsiders. They were predators, and everybody else was prey. Today we find it offensive, but I really appreciate that the show tries to be true to the history. A story about Viking conquest without rape would be like Gone With The Wind without slaves.

 

2. I thought the whole thing with Odo and his "kink" was lazy writing. The shortcut to make a character really dark is to make him a sexual sadist. Yawn. Whatev.

 

3. I want to say because I never have -- that the opening credits for this show are spellbinding. Any other show, I fast-forward through them, but with this show, I watch every time. Great visual, super music. <3

 

 

 

[Shermie]

I don't understand the notion the Vikings won't get Emmy love because it's foreign-produced. Aren't Game of Thrones and Downton Abbey foreign shows?

And the Emmys are for excellence in television, not excellence in American television.

If Vikings doesn't get Emmy noms, it's likely because many people who nominate/vote are lazy or followers, and just go with the same old short list every year.

[cmr2014]

 

Looking to next season, I wonder how long Ragnar lets Floki stew in his own juice before he gets flamed.

 

I think that Ragnar "got" Floki already. Floki took something dear to Ragnar (Athelstan). Now Ragnar has taken something important to Floki (the Gods).

 

Floki was getting more and more zealous and more and more convinced that he had a direct line to the Gods. Now, he knows that all of his sacrifices have been in vain.

 

It was a pretty brilliant (and cynical) gambit. If Floki was right, they would have overrun Paris -- a great achievement. If Floki was wrong, his faith would be crushed and he would be publicly humiliated. Ragnar wins either way -- and he can always attack Paris another day.

[Captanne]

Lidarose9, GMTA.

 

So few people are willing to call out these shows that we love when they indulge in lazy writing.  ITA about Odo's kink -- unless they make it a plot point next season.  Jnymph made the same observation in another thread.  

 

Fascinating angle, cmr2014, I'm just not sure Floki understands that he's been had and until he does, it's not a complete victory on Ragnar's part.  (Iow, I'm not sure Floki connects his humiliation with a long game on him played by Ragnar.  I'm not even sure he understands that his humiliation was caused by or intended by Ragnar.  I don't think he's connected that set of dots - yet.)

Edited April 25, 2015 by Captanne

[justawatcher]

I have two comments. The first is to @Captanne about Rollo

He could have just waited for his brother to come in the spring and try to sack Paris again but, instead, goes for the rich girl and a good life in a foreign country.  Although he's got a history of siding with the enemy, he didn't have to this time.  It says a lot about his character without some Exposition Fairy explaining it to us in words of one syllable.

His coffin speech to Ragnar had a part in there about being resentful about always being behind him (paraphrase, can't remember the exact words). This is not the first time he has expressed this. What does Rollo have to go back to? He's the king's brother. He has no title, he has no woman, he has no children. he also has no guarantee that Ragnar will continue to live. Who becomes king when Ragnar dies? This is a culture that has a history of title inheritance by the son unless someone else takes it from him. Does Bjorn inherit and keep the title? Or do Kalf and Horik's son take out Bjorn and claim it for one of them? (Pretend we don't know history because Rollo doesn't) Ragnar has never set his brother up for an earldom or a leadership position of his own. Rollo is like a piece of mafia muscle. And really, doesn't Ragnar look like he's going to live? No. So Rollo took advantage of an opportunity to carve his own path and stay with men who are loyal to him and not his brother and be a leader. That path was chosen with the expectation that the Vikings will come back. But Ragnar looks like he will die. Who says they are coming back? Ragnar and Rollo gave each other a final goodbye. They knew that was likely the last time they see each other.

 

Now here comes the emperor offering Rollo everything he never had: a title, lands, the girl, and the belief that he could defend the city against the Vikings. Rollo thinks his brother won't come back, why not take the deal? He and his merry band of men will set up nicely in Normandy. I have no issue with that choice. How long should he be at his brother's beck and call, especially when they both believe he will die.

 

I also have a comment concerning the 50 Shades of Odo and the notion that he was whipping helpless girls. Far from the truth. Odo's kink may not be your(general) kink, but it is a kink that goes back to the beginning of humankind. Obviously, it is a LOT of people's kink and has been since the dawn of man. As far as this particular time, the girl asked him what she could offer to interest him. he showed her. She could have said no and left. She didn't say no. He let her look around his room without comment. She could have left but didn't. He let her test out the irons and imagine herself in them to see if she wanted that. She could have left but didn't. He let her pick out her choice of whip. She did. He gave her the option of a safeword. He made her give the go to strike. She did. Whatever her motivation or pleasure, do not think for one moment that this woman was helpless or not in control. She was in complete control. She agreed at every step. It was a conscious decision on her part and she is not a victim.

[bandella]

Then there's Rollo.  He has betrayed Ragnar before by siding with the enemy (climax of series one, yeah?) so this move of his is completely in

character but it's slightly irrational on his part.  So, that's complicated.  He could have just waited for his brother to come in the spring and try to sack Paris again but, instead, goes for the rich girl and a good life in a foreign country.  Although he's got a history of siding with the enemy, he didn't have to this time.  It says a lot about his character without some Exposition Fairy explaining it to us in words of one syllable.

 

I love that.  Love it.

This! I kinda want to smack Rollo upside the head and go, "Dude, remember last time you got all offended over Ragnar being the special one, and then you found out you didn't actually have the heart to fight him and you spent the next year or so wallowing drunk in the mud?" 

 

Like you, I love that the show trusts its audience to be smart enough to not see this as totally out of left field or out of character. Disappointing for some, smart for others, pragmatic for still others, but it's entirely in line with what we know about Rollo so far. 

 

That being said, I'm not 100% convinced he's going to play along with the Franks. He's probably pissed about Ragnar's fake death and not trusting him enough to tell him in advance, but I don't know if that's enough for him to betray Ragnar again. Who's to say he's not just taking advantage of a great opportunity when it fell in his lap, cozy up to the princess and get her on his side (or at least have some fun being yelled at by attractive women, as seems to be his favorite hobby besides tripping on mushrooms and wholesale slaughter), and somehow work from the inside to make Ragnar's life a little easier come spring raiding season? Or maybe Ragnar will think, "Hey, we kinda sorta conquered Paris...maybe I'll just go bug Ecbert instead."

Edited April 25, 2015 by bandella

[Captanne]

It's complicated, not spoon fed to the audience, talk about your "shades of gray"!, and I love it.

[RiddleyWalker]

 

That being said, I'm not 100% convinced he's going to play along with the Franks. He's probably pissed about Ragnar's fake death and not trusting him enough to tell him in advance, but I don't know if that's enough for him to betray Ragnar again. Who's to say he's not just taking advantage of a great opportunity when it fell in his lap, cozy up to the princess and get her on his side (or at least have some fun being yelled at by attractive women, as seems to be his favorite hobby besides tripping on mushrooms and wholesale slaughter), and somehow work from the inside to make Ragnar's life a little easier come spring raiding season? Or maybe Ragnar will think, "Hey, we kinda sorta conquered Paris...maybe I'll just go bug Ecbert instead."

I get the feeling that Rollo isn't necessarily someone who thinks ahead--as opposed to Ragnar. If and when Ragnar comes back, Rollo will decide what he wants to do. Life is short, Ragnar is seriously injured, who knows if he'll even have to decide to betray or support Ragnar? "A bird in the hand"… or princess…etc, etc.  

 

That being said, for dramatic purposes, I'm sure Ragnar will come back! (That makes me very happy, BTW)

[Haleth]

I can't help it, I squeed like a schoolgirl when Rollo said hello to Gisela. 50 shades of crap, this is romantic. (Ok,except for her talking about vomiting.). You know those crazy kids are meant for each other.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Haleth

[Stratego]

I have two comments. The first is to @Captanne about Rollo

He could have just waited for his brother to come in the spring and try to sack Paris again but, instead, goes for the rich girl and a good life in a foreign country.  Although he's got a history of siding with the enemy, he didn't have to this time.  It says a lot about his character without some Exposition Fairy explaining it to us in words of one syllable.

His coffin speech to Ragnar had a part in there about being resentful about always being behind him (paraphrase, can't remember the exact words). This is not the first time he has expressed this. What does Rollo have to go back to? He's the king's brother. He has no title, he has no woman, he has no children. he also has no guarantee that Ragnar will continue to live. Who becomes king when Ragnar dies? This is a culture that has a history of title inheritance by the son unless someone else takes it from him. Does Bjorn inherit and keep the title? Or do Kalf and Horik's son take out Bjorn and claim it for one of them? (Pretend we don't know history because Rollo doesn't) Ragnar has never set his brother up for an earldom or a leadership position of his own. Rollo is like a piece of mafia muscle. And really, doesn't Ragnar look like he's going to live? No. So Rollo took advantage of an opportunity to carve his own path and stay with men who are loyal to him and not his brother and be a leader. That path was chosen with the expectation that the Vikings will come back. But Ragnar looks like he will die. Who says they are coming back? Ragnar and Rollo gave each other a final goodbye. They knew that was likely the last time they see each other.

 

Now here comes the emperor offering Rollo everything he never had: a title, lands, the girl, and the belief that he could defend the city against the Vikings. Rollo thinks his brother won't come back, why not take the deal? He and his merry band of men will set up nicely in Normandy. I have no issue with that choice. How long should he be at his brother's beck and call, especially when they both believe he will die.

 

 

Exactly.  Rollo's  standing in Kattegat is: as  Ragnar's brother--he's an underboss.  Rollo has a crew (his "gang"). But after Ragnar dies--what does he have? In West Frankia he will be a Duke, son-in-law to the emperor, and own vast tracts of land (as well as his share of the tribute). He will be able to levy and collect taxes--all with the blessing of the emperor.  None of the other nobles dare raise a sword against him given his marriage to Gisla. It is inconceivable that he would refuse this offer from Charles.  Plus, Rollo has inside knowledge of the Danes that the Franks don't have--a pending war with other Vikings from modern day Sweden.  They (Kattegat) will have their hands full so they won't be back any time soon.

[justawatcher]

Let's spitball for a moment. Here's a question:

You're Rollo. The king just said he expects you to defend Paris against the Vikings. You and he both know that means he is entrusting you and respecting your skill in battle.

 

Does Odo stay? He really did do a brilliant job defending Paris, but he is also the other suitor for the princess and the power. Who is the other woman? Is she nobility that could help make a power claim for Odo?

[TobinAlbers]

What makes Gisla's tirade at Rollo even better is as she's ranting you can see the Emperor close his eyes and pinch the bridge of his nose wincing as he internally thinks 'Oh, shit, this is not going well at ALL'.

And Rollo was adorable as he listened to her rant his face going from 'Er, what is she saying? WHAT did she just call me?! This girl's got some fire! OMG I lurve her. We're gonna make such pretty babies. Oh, it's my turn to talk? I better say something cool...'

Then the Emperor not missing a beat cuts his eyes from his daughter to Rollo and just nods and smiles like 'Okay, I guess he's not gonna kill us today.' Hee.

[Andromeda]

Woot, finally got a chance to watch. I suspected Ragnar wasn't dead yet, because of the convenient coffin box (Floki said he was making Ragnar one last ship, like it was an unusual request from a dying man or king.) And because we didn't see him die.

 

After so many here mentioned Rollo in historical terms, I did my research. I had no idea the first three seasons that he played such an important role in French history. So interesting! I was really excited to see some of that play out this season. Thanks for the info, guys!

 

They sure short-changed the actual sacking of the city, I assume because the Viking are our heroes, and seeing them pillage and rape would be too much (it would for me!). Thinking all they did was plunder a few shinies sits much better with me. Plus, maybe Lagertha found herself a nice bristle brush for those scarily knotty locks of hers. (Looks cool, but just thinking of brushing it out makes my scalp hurt!)

 

When Rollo gives the princess that smile, can't imagine any woman resisting that. Hotness! I love the princess. I know some didn't like her last week, but I love her strength. I also find her looks interesting, and her hair a pretty shade of light brown that so many women today try to extinguish with bleach blond.

 

The woman with Odo... I would have been running the other way. Sorry, just don't get it, I wouldn't have trusted that guy to honor a safe word -- he was making all the rules.

 

Floki, your days are numbered.

 

I just find it so funny that the Vikings and Christians see Valhalla and Heaven as two distinct locations, rather than considering that's their separate interpretations of the same place. And each one has special rules for entering. So if Ragnar goes to Heaven, he'll won't see Lagertha, and would have to find a way to leave and get to Valhalla to party with her. And the magic baptismal water is his entrance fee for Heaven. Once that's done, he's headed there (or to hell, as the Cardinal said.) LOL. Religion is so weird to me.

 

We were really left hanging with all the Wessex stuff. We still need vengeance for the slaughter of the Viking settlement!

 

I got all excited at the end when the promo had scenes and said the show was returning "Soon." Sorry, History Channel, 2016 IS NOT SOON!!

 

Raiding is fun, ruling isn't.

Just ask Daenerys.

 

Showing gothic vaulted ceilings in the French cathedral took me out of it (yelling anachronism!)

That threw me, too. Had me racing to my "life in the Middle Ages" books, because I was sure that was a later development (reminded me of Pillars of the Earth, too.)

She was in complete control. She agreed at every step. It was a conscious decision on her part and she is not a victim.

I agree, he was quite advanced in his BDSM protocol. The thing that gave me pause was his comment about "breaking" the princess, which implies unwilling participation and his dominance of her. Edited April 26, 2015 by Andromeda

[Ohwell]

I think the more the princess ranted at Rollo, the hotter she got for him.  Rollo was looking at her like "ooohhh...this is gonna be fuuuuunnnnn."

[becauseIsaidso]

 

I think those negative reactions to Odo´s litlle kinks are bit unfair. If he was younger and better looking, the reactions from many female viewers would be "you can whip me anytime". Like in 50 Shades of Grey. Not to mention he was very 21th century gentleman about it, with a consent and a safewords. For me if they wanted to make him a bad guy, it was  a failure. If a man like him was truly evil sadist, he would torture peasant girls in his dungeon reguraly and he would not ask them if they are willing.

I think I may have given the wrong impression. I was not intending to disparage Odo's appeal...he simply does not appeal to me, which is, NOT to say I think he would not be appealing to a woman in the timeframe, political atmosphere and sexual proclivities of his station in life at the time in question... physical appearance is not the defining characteristic for everyone.... 

 

I see everything as on a continuum.....at one end we have the person who faints at the very sight of a hypodermic needle, at the other we have the one who sees a cat 'o nine tails and says, Whoopie, Hell, YES!!!!!....There are those who can not bear the thought of a bandaid being pulled off, and at the other end are those who say, do it again, harder.....

 

I admit to knowing next to nothing about the BDSM - Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, Sadism/Masochism lifestyles, as they are often overlapped in definition - but I do know that if I were so inclined, I would chose my partner to be Rollo rather than Odo, which is nothing more than a comment on my own preferences in having my sexual partners being as physically appealing to me as the erotic appeal of the  actions in which we engage.

 

I do totally agree with Odo's 21st century nod to the amenities of safewords and consents being given, understood, and reciprocated...

 

GIven all that, I am still wondering if little miss submissive was simply placed in Odo's path as, perhaps a diversion, a compensation for the loss of the royal Gisela, or if her handlers are seeing a way to gain control over the one who has shown himself to delight in exerting painful control over others... will this play out to be a 'weakness' that is used to try and bring him to heel? Or will it simply serve as a definition of the one aspect of the social/sexual mores of a particular segment of the population at that time. I can't wait to see what the next season brings.

 

And, WTF is up with the wimpy emperor and his dark mask....has anyone found out any historical reference to the use of such masks?

[jadecorleone]

I think I may have given the wrong impression. I was not intending to disparage Odo's appeal...he simply does not appeal to me, which is, NOT to say I think he would not be appealing to a woman in the timeframe, political atmosphere and sexual proclivities of his station in life at the time in question... physical appearance is not the defining characteristic for everyone.... 

 

I see everything as on a continuum.....at one end we have the person who faints at the very sight of a hypodermic needle, at the other we have the one who sees a cat 'o nine tails and says, Whoopie, Hell, YES!!!!!....There are those who can not bear the thought of a bandaid being pulled off, and at the other end are those who say, do it again, harder.....

 

I admit to knowing next to nothing about the BDSM - Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, Sadism/Masochism lifestyles, as they are often overlapped in definition - but I do know that if I were so inclined, I would chose my partner to be Rollo rather than Odo, which is nothing more than a comment on my own preferences in having my sexual partners being as physically appealing to me as the erotic appeal of the  actions in which we engage.

 

I do totally agree with Odo's 21st century nod to the amenities of safewords and consents being given, understood, and reciprocated...

 

GIven all that, I am still wondering if little miss submissive was simply placed in Odo's path as, perhaps a diversion, a compensation for the loss of the royal Gisela, or if her handlers are seeing a way to gain control over the one who has shown himself to delight in exerting painful control over others... will this play out to be a 'weakness' that is used to try and bring him to heel? Or will it simply serve as a definition of the one aspect of the social/sexual mores of a particular segment of the population at that time. I can't wait to see what the next season brings.

 

And, WTF is up with the wimpy emperor and his dark mask....has anyone found out any historical reference to the use of such masks?

Actually discussed this with my hubby yesterday morning (we are both huge fans and are both history buffs). Granted this is just a theory but what we came up with was the masks were to hide their true emotions ie not to show fear or panic in front of the people. (Granted no mask is gonna hide what a weasel the Emperor is).

[millennium]

Ragnar's rise from the dead was fantastic but the payoff was a letdown. All of that for a minor raid? They looted the city a bit and we didn't even get to see it? Just a few dozen Vikings storming main street? Okay, show.

 

 

A very underwhelming episode, from start to finish.   I reached the end still waiting for it to begin.   The writing seemed lazy, the pace was way off ... I'm sick of Floki getting away with being a prick.    Gisla seems obnoxious.

 

The Odo sadism scene seemed as at home in this series as it would have been in Downton Abbey.   Cheap and unnecessary.

 

Such a good season, what a disappointing finish.

Edited April 30, 2015 by millennium

[Captanne]

While I agree with you about Floki being a disappointing one-note character trying to channel the utterly wrong Lord of the Rings character -- I feel that's nothing that couldn't be solved with better writing and directing (give the actor other choices because he's clearly not thinking of them himself.)  And Odo's sadism was completely unnecessary and out of left field but --

 

I've been bitching about how disappointing Floki is until even I'm tired of hearing myself.  (Don't all agree at once, please.  I have feelings, too.)  

 

The Odo-thing I'm willing to either ignore or live in hopes that the writers make it relevant next season.

 

I thought those were either on-going problems or minor, in that order.

 

The rest of the episode, in my opinion, was FUCKING FABULOUS.  On another thread, you'll see that the UK have nominated Vikings for a lot of technical awards (along with direction) which I think is richly deserved.  I hope they win -- not because I think awards are All That but because it helps their careers and that's important in the business world.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Captanne

[Babalooie]

Captanne, I really think that Gustaf Skarsgard IS making the acting choices himself.  Being fascinated with the Skarsgard acting dynasty, I've done a lot of reading on them.  Gustaf has done theater since childhood and is very Shakespearean in his style of acting, as was evident in the soliloquy at the casket.  In one article he says that he spent quite a long time trying to come up with and perfect the trademark Floki laugh.  Lately, he seems to have been written as the antagonist (one of many), as opposed to that very first episode when he was Ragnar's quirky friend meeting Bjorn.

Millennium, I wholeheartedly agree that the episode was underwhelming.  Not sure what I was expecting at the end, but it wasn't that.

[Captanne]

I didn't mean to say that Skarsgard isn't making his own choices, I meant to say that there may be choices he is not making because he doesn't see them.  That's part of the director's job -- to suggest alternatives if one particular method might not be working.

 

Right now, Floki is playing "Captain Obvious" and it's getting tedious.

 

Even his speech at the coffin was singularly insane -- it was a classic narcissistic ode to himself.  I listened carefully because I picked out his narcissism when he made that completely insane comment about hating his infant child because the infant made him happy (ie, it's all the infant's fault for how he feels and happiness makes him angry and .... what?)  Then, Helga called him a narcissist to his face when she left him right after he almost strangled her.

 

This is not a character we call "hero" by any stretch.

 

Stabbing a man to death who is all by himself, in his bedroom, in the dark, on his knees, in his underwear, humming isn't exactly heroic behaviour, either.

 

Some things really are a question of taste but we are being handed Floki the UberVillain in every single episode.  The villainy, cowardice and insanity is piling on at every turn.  Even if he was an Olivier, it would be hard to act your way out of that.