S10.E15: European Honeymoon

[Skittl1321]

Once again I was just answering someone's question and I realize many people do this too but Gothard does like the home to be decorated this way. It just so happens that his desires fall in line with a popular decorating style.

You said "I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere". 

There are so many "I read it somewhere's" about IBLP/ATI/Gothard etc.  Most of it just isn't true.

The IBLP might say to have a family centered home decoration; but likely it is just that it's cheap and Christian-focused to get all your stuff at Hobby Lobby and that is what they sell there. It is an astonishingly common decorating style, and I don't think much can be read into it. 

 

I just doubt that Gothard issued a statement that says how to decorate.  If you find one, I'd be happy to say I'm wrong.  But "I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere" just doesn't cut it as a source for me.

[Aw my lahgs]

Gothard prides himself on being a sort of neo-Orthodox Jewish person. Thus you have a lot of pseudo rules that are often based on the highly structured rules followed by Orthodox Jews. Thus dressing patterns, no pictures, no pork, menstruation issues, sex rules after birth or boy/girl, etc.

Except of course, that Orthodox Jews DO have pictures and art on the walls and also DO use birth control.... So me thinks mr G. just picks and chooses and changes stuff as he pleases, and the Quiverfull flock just does whatever he says.. Pretty creepy.

[Almost 3000]

You said "I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere". 

There are so many "I read it somewhere's" about IBLP/ATI/Gothard etc.  Most of it just isn't true.

The IBLP might say to have a family centered home decoration; but likely it is just that it's cheap and Christian-focused to get all your stuff at Hobby Lobby and that is what they sell there. It is an astonishingly common decorating style, and I don't think much can be read into it. 

 

I just doubt that Gothard issued a statement that says how to decorate.  If you find one, I'd be happy to say I'm wrong.  But "I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere" just doesn't cut it as a source for me.

Good point. If I find a creditable source I'll post it.

[Marigold]

I was IFB but not really too familiar with Gothard.

Don't know about decorating but I can say that putting up Bible verses is very encouraged. You will see them taped to the window by the kitchen sink or on the fridge. Pretty ones are put up on the wall. Every time you pass it, you tend to read it an it helps you memorize Bible verses etc.

[GEML]

Many Orthodox Jewish sects do not permit art on the walls or birth control. We moved into a home that had been been a Chabad House for the Lubavitcher Jews, for instance (while still being a private home) There was no art on the walls, and I know they do not use birth control.

[Micks Picks]

I do know that if you are selling your house, you get rid of all the personal pictures and certainly bible things because a buyer wants to see themselves in the home, not you.

[GEML]

They hadn't bothered to do that. One room was decorated with the woman's hats on the wall, for instance. She had died of cancer and the husband had basically left the house as she had left it.

There are also plenty of books on the subject that I could recommend, if you are really interested. (If do that in Small talk)

Edited April 28, 2015 by GEML

[Aw my lahgs]

Many Orthodox Jewish sects do not permit art on the walls or birth control. We moved into a home that had been been a Chabad House for the Lubavitcher Jews, for instance (while still being a private home) There was no art on the walls, and I know they do not use birth control.

 

Without starting a fight, having grown up in/around that world, that is not true. First, Chabad does not represent Judaism, in fact they are shunned by a lot of Jews because of their devotion to the rebbe. However, even chabadniks have art on the wall (http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/375088/jewish/The-Rebbe-and-Art.htm) and family pictures... They especially enjoy paintings of their rebbe (the ones that have little art and pics will always have a Rebbe painting on the wall)... BC is not frowned upon. It is, however, very private. But it is very common to see BC for 6 months, 1 - 2 years after birth... Some women will just take it themselves (the majority), while others go ask their rabbi for permission. When a woman feels that she won't be able to physically/emotionally/psychologically handle a child, a heter (permission) for BC is always granted to her, usually for X amount of time, after which she can ask for an extension..... Condoms are prohibited, but spermicide is not.... 90% of the orthodox homes I have been to, have art & pictures on the wall. ETA: yes there are women that pop them out like a Duggar, but it's not the norm. While there are many large families, there is usually spacing going on).

Edited April 28, 2015 by Nutella

[GEML]

Sigh. My bad. The Lubavitchers I've personally known must have been the Duggars of that group then. And of course, there are plenty of Christians who shun the Duggars and say they don't represent Christianity. Which was kind of my overall point in the comparison.

[Aw my lahgs]

Sigh. My bad. The Lubavitchers I've personally known must have been the Duggars of that group then. And of course, there are plenty of Christians who shun the Duggars and say they don't represent Christianity. Which was kind of my overall point in the comparison.

 

Even within Chabad there are plenty of subtypes. Starting with the ones that were born into it and the ones that became chabad later in life (the duggars would fall into this category if they were chabad), the ones that believe the rebbe is the messiah and those that don't, etc etc etc... But even the Rebbe loved and appreciate art and science...

[GEML]

The thing that's weird is that I'm not so sure that Gothard doesn't appreciate science and art himself. He is very well educated, and there is no getting around that he's an intelligent, and well read person. Charismatic leaders often are.

[Micks Picks]

All this doesn't sound very honeymoon like to me.  Maybe the religion thread would be better.

[Wellfleet]

All this doesn't sound very honeymoon like to me.  Maybe the religion thread would be better.

 

Good point - how does one "move" a post? I'm clueless. Thanks.

[Micks Picks]

I'm not sure either, but the decorating, art, science thing has gone on for so long I thought it WAS the topic.

[SoSueMe]

But did you catch Michelle's blasé delivery of the news? Jana was far more upset than Michelle. 

I think that by lowering her baby voice a few octaves she was indicating that maybe this was a little serious. Other than that she didn't appear to be very distressed. 

[msblossom]

Good point - how does one "move" a post? I'm clueless. Thanks.

-Click on the edit pencil

-Select all of the quote you want to move including someone else's quote if you're responding to another person's post

-Cut

-You can remark in the blank box that your moving your response or post to such and such thread

-Go to the thread you want to move your post to

-Paste your post that you cut from the previous thread

[Wellfleet]

-Click on the edit pencil

-Select all of the quote you want to move including someone else's quote if you're responding to another person's post

-Cut

-You can remark in the blank box that your moving your response or post to such and such thread

-Go to the thread you want to move your post to

-Paste your post that you cut from the previous thread

 

Thanks, msblossom. :>)  Moving my post to Olf Time Religion...

[Wellfleet]

-Click on the edit pencil

-Select all of the quote you want to move including someone else's quote if you're responding to another person's post

-Cut

-You can remark in the blank box that your moving your response or post to such and such thread

-Go to the thread you want to move your post to

-Paste your post that you cut from the previous thread

 

I followed these steps and was careful to "cut" rather than "copy" - but it didn't remove the post from here in the "European Honeymoon" thread. Just copied it to "Religion." So if a mod knows how to zap it here, I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

[cmr2014]

 

 

You said "I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere".

There are so many "I read it somewhere's" about IBLP/ATI/Gothard etc.  Most of it just isn't true.

The IBLP might say to have a family centered home decoration; but likely it is just that it's cheap and Christian-focused to get all your stuff at Hobby Lobby and that is what they sell there. It is an astonishingly common decorating style, and I don't think much can be read into it.

I just doubt that Gothard issued a statement that says how to decorate.  If you find one, I'd be happy to say I'm wrong.  But "I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere" just doesn't cut it as a source for me.

 

I was googling something earlier today and ran across this:

 

*********************************************************************************************

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/largerhope/Gothard.htm

 

So, for those who don't know, what does this guy Gothard teach? The answer is that he teaches literally everything you could think concerning almost anything you could imagine. Gothard has been described as a 'collector' since in specialized fields of study he consults experts and then formulates his own teaching on those subjects, as in his seminar for lawyers and doctors. Gothard is most associated with his teachings on character training, though his literature gives advice on practical matters ranging from everything from how to write a will, to how to prepare a shopping list, to dental care, meal planning, home safety, how to hire a church secretary, and if you are a woman, how to select make up, how to choose a hair style and colors which will enhance the skin tone, how to wear accessories and the place of accents on the clothing, and how you should and should not stand (there are pictures to illustrate this), and on and on.

*********************************************************************************************

 

This is an article about Gothard that I thought was on-point. If he has bothered to tell his followers how to create a shopping list and select make-up, it seems that it would be par for the course to provide "guidance" on how to decorate a home.

 

If the stuff in this article is true -- and it appears to be well-researched --  then I doubt that Bin (or Derick) would have been allowed to court a Duggar daughter without taking at least one seminar.

[Mrs. P.]

After his ignominious removal from his board, I'm surprised that Gothard is still giving his seminars. And I'm even more surprised that there are still people who attend them.

[Emme]

Seriously? I missed that. That was really her response? What an insufferable bitch.

Did anyone else catch MEchelle blowing Josie off? MEchelle had arrived at Jessa and Ben's house (of course she would arrive after work is completed). One of the howlers had Josie on his back. He brought her over to MEchelle and Josie put her hand out to her mom. MEchelle kind of brushed Josie's hand, as if it was something gross. She didn't look at her the whole time. Completely disengaged.

How about MEchelle's sing-songy "You can have things, or you can have children. But you can't have both. Of course, I choose children" (or something like that). MEchelle certainly looked pretty connected to things as she careened through that thrift store, ignoring the trip's purpose of outfitting Jessa and Ben's house, instead maniacally gathering up crap for herself. Hmmm... I think she chose things over children. Just sayin...

I've never heard of the love locks until a few seasons ago on The Bachelorette with Andi.  Sometimes on the first episode during the initial meeting, a gift is given to the Bachelor/Bachelorette.  One guy gave Andi a lock (after telling her about the tradition in Paris) and they put it on one of the gates on the 'set' and tossed the key into the pond.  Wonder if Ben got his idea from watching ;)

 

When Ben gave Jessa the lock, he said 'it's engraved' or 'I engraved it.'  Something like that.  She said 'I knew you did.  I know your handwriting.' Well I would fucking hope you know the handwriting of your HUSBAND!  (sorry...this show makes me stabby ;(

Well, the first time Ben gave Jessa his penis, even though he was her HUSBAND, I'm sure Jessa couldn't have picked it out of a lineup.

[Emme]

Even within Chabad there are plenty of subtypes. Starting with the ones that were born into it and the ones that became chabad later in life (the duggars would fall into this category if they were chabad), the ones that believe the rebbe is the messiah and those that don't, etc etc etc... But even the Rebbe loved and appreciate art and science...

Yes. I have a close relative ho has embraced Chabad. He and his wife were both raised in Conservative Jewish homes. Now he's all involved with Chabad, and his wife and kids are along for the ride. We are reformed. At a gathering at the Chabad home, I mistakenly went to shake the Rabb!'s hand. He recoiled from me, and I was pretty much shunned.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Emme

[Micks Picks]

Wow all you have to do to establish a cult is write about every single thing, no matter how mundane, you've ever heard or read in your life.  Then you organize it into life principles.  I get it.  I'd do it but it sounds so boring and insincere.  

[DoctorWhovian]

How about MEchelle's sing-songy "You can have things, or you can have children. But you can't have both. Of course, I choose children" (or something like that). MEchelle certainly looked pretty connected to things as she careened through that thrift store, ignoring the trip's purpose of outfitting Jessa and Ben's house, instead maniacally gathering up crap for herself. Hmmm... I think she chose things over children. Just sayin...

 

I'd love to know what things she gave up for children...

[Quickbeam]

I am brand new to this show having watched this, my first ever episode. I don't mind the kids and their efforts to carve out their adult lives but Michelle is just off the wall. I come from an enormous extended family (42 first cousins, families of 10 and 12 children) and Michelle's remote approach to her children is deeply disturbing. My aunts made their large # of kids their entire life and kids weren't handed off to siblings to be primary care givers. I feel so badly for the younger children who seem to get no parental attention. 

[NikSac]

I'd love to know what things she gave up for children...

A $.50 picture frame?

[CofCinci]

I'd love to know what things she gave up for children...

Mothering.

[flyingdi]

She gave up the last vestiges of her sanity somewhere along the way, maybe?

[Vaysh]

I'm watching this episode and I'm thinking Bin's got some serious Cortisone Face going on in the talking heads, very puffed up and swollen compared to the rest of his body. Hopefully this means that he's found some effective treatment for his allergies. My cousin had severe hayfever as well as other allergies and was always congested, especially during spring and summer, and it eased up tremendously when he began cortisone treatments, but he did puff up something fierce and gained a quite a bit of weight because of it.

[becca3891]

 

The thing that's weird is that I'm not so sure that Gothard doesn't appreciate science and art himself. He is very well educated, and there is no getting around that he's an intelligent, and well read person.

I think you're very much overestimating Wheaton College (a fundie school) and Louisiana Baptist University, particularly when it comes to science. Bill is well read, yes, but I would imagine pretty much exclusively religious books. I very much doubt his overall depth of knowledge is very diverse.

[GEML]

Wheaton is by no means a Fundy school. My sister is a graduate and is quite well educated with regards to evolution and a non seven day creation. It educates plenty of people who go on to become MDs every year. Gothard has both a BA and MA from Wheaton, and I can assure you that quoting the Bible as your authority will not fly in any of Wheaton's classes, from science, to philosophy to even theology. They use the most liberal translation in their classes (forget the King James) and it comes as a great shock to many Fundy students who attend how rigorous and "worldly" the scholarship is.

(In case you think I'm just brainwashed, my own degree is in philosophy from the University of Pittsburgh, which is considered to be one of the most atheistic programs in the world. So yes, I know the difference between Fundy colleges, Evangelical colleges, secular colleges and atheist colleges. I spent the first 30 years of my life on campuses of some sort! :) )

[Lukeysboat]

I think you're very much overestimating Wheaton College (a fundie school) ... I very much doubt his overall depth of knowledge is very diverse.

Wheaton is considered to be one of the best Christian colleges in the country. It receives high marks from reputable, non-faith-based organizations. It's not a fundie school. A quick online search provides plenty of background on the school. I have many friends who are Wheaton grads and they are well-educated people.

[becca3891]

 

Wheaton is by no means a Fundy school. My sister is a graduate and is quite well educated with regards to evolution and a non seven day creation. It educates plenty of people who go on to become MDs every year. Gothard has both a BA and MA from Wheaton, and I can assure you that quoting the Bible as your authority will not fly in any of Wheaton's classes, from science, to philosophy to even theology. They use the most liberal translation in their classes (forget the King James) and it comes as a great shock to many Fundy students who attend how rigorous and "worldly" the scholarship is.

(In case you think I'm just brainwashed, my own degree is in philosophy from the University of Pittsburgh, which is considered to be one of the most atheistic programs in the world. So yes, I know the difference between Fundy colleges, Evangelical colleges, secular colleges and atheist colleges. I spent the first 30 years of my life on campuses of some sort! :)

Wheaton is considered to be one of the best Christian colleges in the country. It receives high marks from reputable, non-faith-based organizations. It's not a fundie school. A quick online search provides plenty of background on the school. I have many friends who are Wheaton grads and they are well-educated people.

I stand corrected! I am very well acquainted with a number of fundie colleges -- Patrick Henry, Christ College, Geneva College, Bob Jones, Liberty, to name a few. All teach creationism and reject evolution. But I had not done my research about Wheaton, so thank you for enlightening me!

[3girlsforus]

People who believe in God and believe the God created the universe are not automatically fundies, nor does that mean they have not studied evolution. Lots of very intelligent, well-educated people believe in God.

[JenCarroll]

I don't believe anyone here has said otherwise. Or ever would.

Aaaaaand we are way off topic... if anyone wants to chat about higher ed. in the small talk thread, I'm sure we'd have contributors. :-)

Edited May 16, 2015 by JenCarroll

[becca3891]

 

People who believe in God and believe the God created the universe are not automatically fundies, nor does that mean they have not studied evolution. Lots of very intelligent, well-educated people believe in God.

Believe me, I know what fundy means. :) I was raised in a fundy home. I know that belief in god doesn't make you one, but belief that the bible is the inspired word of god, literally true and our rule book for today, does make you one. Wheaton College IS in fact a fundy school -- here is a link to their statement of faith. But apparently they also teach science, even though their official doctrines go against it, so that's something!

 

http://wheaton.edu/About-Wheaton/Statement-of-Faith-and-Educational-Purpose

 

[Darknight]

So gothard is educated but tells parents to keep their kids dumb. Okay! Makes perfect sense

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Gothard prides himself on being a sort of neo-Orthodox Jewish person. Thus you have a lot of pseudo rules that are often based on the highly structured rules followed by Orthodox Jews. Thus dressing patterns, no pictures, no pork, menstruation issues, sex rules after birth or boy/girl, etc.

Do the Duggars really not eat pork?

My Jewish and Muslim friends don't but I've never known any Christians other than Seventh Day Adventists who don't eat pork.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Literata]

Do the Duggars really not eat pork?

My Jewish and Muslim friends don't but I've never known any Christians other than Seventh Day Adventists who don't eat pork.

They don't. MEchelle mentioned it in one of the more recent seasons. Turkey hot dogs, turkey bacon.

[GEML]

Geneva isn't a Fundy school either. My other sister is a graduate from there and my father was a professor and librarian for over 30 years. I first learned about evolution in the science library at Geneva and attending a lecture when I was about six.

It's known for its political conservative action in the Obamacare debate, but quite a few professors have always been liberals, it's economics have never been of the Austrian school and its science program has always been highly ranked for a school its size.

Schools like Wheaton and Geneva are very religious schools. They are EVANGELICAL colleges. They still have chapel requirements and behavior codes and single sex dorms and strict beliefs for their theology departments.

But their science and humanities departments are often quite liberal (too liberal, if you ask some) and the Bible is not a textbook.

[mbutterfly]

People who believe in God and believe the God created the universe are not automatically fundies, nor does that mean they have not studied evolution. Lots of very intelligent, well-educated people believe in God.

Yes, believing in evolution in no way suggests one doesn't believe in God. 

[3girlsforus]

Believe me, I know what fundy means. :) I was raised in a fundy home. I know that belief in god doesn't make you one, but belief that the bible is the inspired word of god, literally true and our rule book for today, does make you one. Wheaton College IS in fact a fundy school -- here is a link to their statement of faith. But apparently they also teach science, even though their official doctrines go against it, so that's something!

 

Your definition of Fundy puts basically every Christian I know into the Fundy category and none of them are. Wheaton is not a Fundy school. Believing in the Bible as the word of God is not what a Fundy is. Maybe that's what it meant to your family and maybe being a Fundy made them take it to more of an extreme but it does not make everyone who believes in the Word of God a Fundy. Nor is teaching science against the doctrine you posted. That is typical evangelical doctrine. it's not a Fundy script at all.

[bigskygirl]

Okay, I think we need to end the Gothard/religious/fundy school/education beat the dead horse, repetitive speculation and debate. This thread is for the episode, not to post or talk about what is not mentioned other things not related to the one episode. Posts about these topics will be deleted from now on. Thank you.

[DoctorWhovian]

They don't. MEchelle mentioned it in one of the more recent seasons. Turkey hot dogs, turkey bacon.

 

This is based on pure memory, but I seem to recall there being an episode where they talk about switching to turkey bacon (maybe one of the "Josh is fat" episodes?).

[becca3891]

This is based on pure memory, but I seem to recall there being an episode where they talk about switching to turkey bacon (maybe one of the "Josh is fat" episodes?).

Taking a quick break from the heavy molestation focused threads to say no, switching to turkey bacon was not a recent healthy change. Gothard teaches that Christians should still be following Old Testament laws on many topics, including avoidance of pork, abstaining from intercourse during menstruation, waiting twice as long after birthing a girl before you can have sex again, etc.

[louannems]

What is up with Anna matching shirts with everyone? In the scene where she announced her pregnancy, she and Joy were wearing the same shirt. Then they flashed back to a scene from when Anna and MEchelle were both pregnant and guess what -- matching shirts. And I can never forget what she and her mom had on when Josh proposed -- surprise! Matching shirts! That's three different shirts and three different people she's been 'twinning.' I'm baffled by this. Anyone have an explanation? A guess?

Don't forget when Anna and Josh were planning their wedding. They were both wearing matching brown striped polo shirts! And on "Girls Camping", Michelle and Mrs Bates wore matching, different colored blouses!