S01.E20: Under The Knife

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gordon and Bullock continue to investigate the Ogre, who begins to make his move on someone close to Gordon. Meanwhile, Bruce and Selina team up to expose a corrupt Wayne Enterprises employee and Nygma comes to Kristin Kringle's defense.

 

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1DJUuKuQY

[SimoneS]

Barbara was absolutely stunning, and sexy as hell in that dress at the Wayne Ball. Damn. I loved that necklace. i wonder where the wardrobe people got it. Too bad Milo's Ogre character is a sadomasochistic murderer. They make a physically stunning couple.

 

Bruce and Selina make good bickering nemeses. 

 

I can't tell who is more of a murderous lunatic, the RIddler or Peguin. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by SimoneS

[Primetimer]

The Ogre learned years ago who his mother wasn't, but the Penguin's mother just learned who her son is.

Read the story

[Ubiquitous]

Why do I get the feeling Ogre and Barb are going to become a team?

"I didn't stab him, he slipped and fell on my knife several times!"

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Nygma got a wee bit stabby.

Barbara found her soul mate. Please don't save her Jim!

Selina and Bruce went on a date, she pick pocketed Brother Mouzone.

[SoSueMe]

Wow, they really packed a lot into a great episode! Nygma, Ogre, Bruce/Selina, Oswald and his mom.

[Ubiquitous]

I think I saw some parallels going on this week.

[Philbert]

I'm scared, I actually really liked Barbara in this one. Oh, and I pretty much called it with regards to the introduction to The Ridder. Ed really did commit murder to avenge Kristen...just not her death. I'm also quite happy that they appear to be doing a 3-4 episode arc instead of the current 2. They need to seriously reexamine the 'crime of the week' format and start doing more complex and interesting police investigations. So far, this is a giant leap forward, for me anyway.

 

Fantastic episode-and no Fish Mooney so even better.

 

Barbara found her soul mate. Please don't save her Jim!

 

Save her? I think Jim and Harvey might end up having to save the Ogre. Barbara scared the hell out of me tonight. There's something desperately broken in her...and I have no idea where they're going with her. Well done, writers...for once.

[Spartan Girl]

Bruce and Selina going to the ball together was so adorable even if it was just to cover their plan. Bruce already is an expert on buying girls nice stuff. Heh, that's going to come in handy when he grows up...

I have a feeling they're going in the direction of Barbara being evil. If she and Ogre do something to Leslie, then Barbara better be dead at the end of the season. Batgirl deserves a better mother.

[HoodlumSheep]

Cackled at the fact that Jim didn't even think about Barbara until the very end.

Leslie continues to be adorable (especially in that blue outfit!).

Nygma finally cracked.

Poor mama cobblepot!!! I was screaming when maroni grabbed her face! I thought she was going to die! She lives to see another day!

I love it when Harvey wears his reading glasses.

Love love love the music/score!

[MisterGlass]

I agree that longer arcs are benefit to this series, especially since they like to touch on a lot of characters in an episode.

 

I'm really sad that this is how Ed ends up a bad guy.  I was still hoping to find out Kris Kringle is a supervillain.  I suppose she still could be, but I don't care for the recourse to making her a domestic abuse victim.  And if this ends with her liking Ed because he killed the cop and egging him on to go darker, I'm not sure how I'll react.

 

Maroni wins out as sadist of the episode, though.  He really took pleasure in shattering Mama Cobblepot's fantasy.  I think he's right, and she does have an inkling that Oswald is capable of dark things, but she was hurt.

 

I liked the argument between Bruce and Selina over Reggie's murder, and the indication that this opened up a significant rift between them even if they are getting along at present.  They did look sweet together at the ball.

 

I took points away from Lee for leaving a window onto a fire escape open while bathing, but gave one back for hitting Gordon in the face with the phone handset.

 

Daniel Davis on the guest star bingo card.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Barbara was quite intriguing tonight, Erin and Milo sizzled.

The actress really shined tonight.

Now it's clear what the problem is, no chemistry with Ben.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[SoSueMe]

The Selina actress (don't know her name) did a heck of a job, I'm impressed. I wish that wardrobe had done right by her though, that was a pretty tacky ball gown.

[Actionmage]

Okay, that is how you go hard in the last stretch!

 

Moroni obviously hasn't heard about leaving family out of business matters. You think it's funny, until the delivery folks start dying. Carol Kane is still delightful as Gertrude.  "My brain is not full of straw."   Realizing her name, after such a stretch, I am thinking Hamlet with Oswald as Hamlet and Sal an unwitting Claudius. Obviously Sal doesn't give a fig about Gertrude, but Gertrude was played in order to hurt Oswald, if not both.

 

I found myself equally concerned for Ed. He's not even really under the notion that Ms. Kringle likes him "that way", yet he feels a need to protect her from a physically and emotionally brutish clod. One who apparently doesn't fully grasp what coroners and lab techs actually do for their jobs. He learned too late.  Actually, I thought the knock on Oswald's door was Ed for some insane reason.

 

Bruce and Selina  were all over the place in a good way tonight. While Selina's good, I don't think she was as smooth as she hoped. She is just Catween right now; she shouldn't be a CattySue.  Bruce/ David were wonderful. The scene where Alfred and Bruce discuss the ball and Selina joining Bruce was fun. The dress for the ball was lovely and Selina/Cameron wore it well.

 

Also lovely tonight, was Barbara. Now, at the charity ball she looked like a vintage Barbie, but that may have been on purpose, as part of the general Gotham aesthetic. Still? Barbara/ Erin looked great! The snarky sort-of roomies thing between Barbara and Selina is great. For that, I hope Barbara is rescued. Both women just sort of work as off-kilter buddies.

 

I liked some of the Leslie we got. I wasn't impressed at the 'let's make the audience think The Ogre is watching Lee!'. Especially since after freaking herself out, she leaves the fire escape window wide open!  I did enjoy the actual jump scares and liked that Lee doesn't let her reasonable fear stop her from helping. Shallowly, I was liking the blue cloche/cloche-style hat she rocked as Jim had his press conference. 

 

I recognized The Ogre's dad as The Nanny's Niles.I really enjoyed Daniel Davis, and his guy was just so understandable, even in his sort of denial, I guess like Gertrude. 

 

I hope the script is flipped and Jason and Barbara runaway to live kinkily ever after. (If it's consensual, of course.)  And/or sublets to Selina and Ivy and they pay for the apartment for a few years. (It's a really cool set.)

 

Due to the cosmetic surgery clinic, I kept waiting for Fish to be found, with or without her fellow survivors. With the Barbara/Selina, I found I was missing Ivy and her wonderfully mussy hair.

 

I am still really excited about this episode; I may have to re-watch it because it may be denser than I think.

 

edited for spacing.

eta: That preview was awesome!

Edited April 21, 2015 by Actionmage

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The Selina actress (don't know her name) did a heck of a job, I'm impressed. I wish that wardrobe had done right by her though, that was a pretty tacky ball gown.

Carmen Bicondova

[SimoneS]

Save her? I think Jim and Harvey might end up having to save the Ogre. Barbara scared the hell out of me tonight. There's something desperately broken in her...and I have no idea where they're going with her. Well done, writers...for once.

 

I am with you on this one. The Ogre has no idea what is coming his way with Barbara. When she realizes what he is really doing, I expect her to kill his ass and put an end to his reign of terror. Barbara is about to come into her own. I hope she stays around for a long time.

 

Actionmage, ahh that is why he looked so familiar. Miles from the Nanny.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SimoneS

[benteen]

Definitely a much better episode on last week and being an ongoing story definitely helped.

 

Erin Richards looked fantastic tonight.

 

Nice to see Daniel Davis pop up.

[thuganomics85]

Damn, Erin Richards really looked gorgeous tonight.  And, once again, Barbara actually is getting better, which is a miracle considering the past episodes.  I really think the character has become more interesting having this dark side to her, and Erin's strengths seem to be used better here, compared to... whatever hell was going on before.  Plus, I think she just has better chemistry with Milo.  And, I still get a kick out of her relationship with Selina.  Who knew this was all they needed to do to make me stop disliking a character?  As long as they doesn't do anything to my beloved Leslie, we're cool now.

 

Maroni sure knows how to do incredible damage, without shedding any blood.  Just let Gertrude know what kind of person Oswald is, and watch their twisted relationship get even more missed up.  Oswald already losing his cool: killing that poor delivery guy like that.  This is probably only going to get uglier.

 

Michael Potts as Bunderslaw!  Always cool see to see a guy from The Wire here (plus, True Detective.)  Enjoyed the Bruce/Selina team-up, and I hope they do find out what happened to his parents, even if that doesn't happen in some of the canon.

 

Nygma finally gets his first kill.  Granted, the guy proves himself to be a woman-beater, so no real tears shed, but this is clearly going to be a big moment in his journey to the dark side.  Curious to see how this will effect his relationship with Miss Kringle.

 

Glad that Essen returned.  Bullock mainly just backed Gordon again, but he still had some good wisecracks.

 

I guess is Fish is still doing some traveling.

 

I really liked this episode.

[MisterGlass]

For Star Trek watchers, Daniel Davis was the holodeck Moriarty on The Next Generation.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MisterGlass

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The Brother Mouzone sighting, that's the third actor from The Wire to appear.

Will Gotham surpass TWD, having another one pop up this season?

[opus]

Selina's gotta stick to the black leather.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

So ummm, I guess Montoya and her partner are hanging with Chuck Cunningham, Bobby Martin and the kid from Family Matters?

[HalcyonDays]

Loved Barbara's dress. Gorgeous. Hated Selina's dress. Come on, she is not a girly girl - give her something simple and without a pattern. Sheesh.

 

So is Barbara somehow going to join the Ogre in his killing spree?

 

Penguin and his mother are creepy together. A little too close for comfort. She is going to drop dead of a heart attack once she really finds out what Penguin really does.

 

Riddler/Ed. Ed, Ed, Ed. What did you do, man? I guess now we know how he starts on his evil path. I thought for sure he was going to use some conniving to get the cop fired/punished.

 

Bullock had a really good line that I wish I could remember!! I hope someone puts it in the quotes thread. And the "I don't have straw in my head" line was awesome!

 

Camren Bicondova is a really good actress for someone so young. I was impressed when she was fighting with Bruce.

 

Daniel Davis! Hello!

[Lantern7]

Anybody else disappointed by the sketch of Jason/Ogre? I guess I got spoiled by Tim Sale's art on Heroes. And damn, he really did look like an ogre before the surgery.

 

Good episode. Shame that Cat Tween got a crappy dress, but she wasn't in her element. I was relieved to see her with the leather and goggles at the end of the episode. And Barbara wasn't sucky this week. . . tis a miracle. Yeah, it was funny that Jim didn't think of her until the very end.

 

Damn, when Eddie snaps, he doesn't fool around. Now it's only a matter of time before he succumbs to a wardrobe with question marks..

[Shanna]

I love Barbara when they give her something to do. Loved her with cat tween and with the serial killer. I cracked up when she no one would miss her if she disappeared and he put away his knife!

On Selena's dress I don't love it but I think they were going for a tween punkish look? But dressed up. And it was a bit awkward for her because it's not her usual thing. So I guess I bought it for her.

Baby Bruce picking up Selena for the ball was adorable as was their awkward dancing and conversations about what happened last week.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Shanna

[Actionmage]

I guess I got spoiled by Tim Sale's art on Heroes.

 

Totally agree on that.

 

Now it's only a matter of time before he succumbs to a wardrobe with question marks..

 

Maybe we get through part of the next season? I like CSI:Nygma.  The watermelon basket was so funny in light of how he came to have one!

[Chaos Theory]

This was the first episode (and i've never really hated her just been kinda blah about her) where I truly loved Barbara. Barbara and the Ogre may be my new OTP.

[opus]

Barbara and the Ogre

Spinoff!

[benteen]

So ummm, I guess Montoya and her partner are hanging with Chuck Cunningham, Bobby Martin and the kid from Family Matters?

 

Geez, I'd completely forgotten about Montoya and her partner.

 

Forgot to add, Milo was pretty good in this one too.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Geez, I'd completely forgotten about Montoya and her partner.

 

Forgot to add, Milo was pretty good in this one too.

Last time I recall seeing them, they saved Jim from the Bootleg Matrix Villains @ GCPD.

[Danielg342]

I suppose I should give the show credit for having a two-parter that didn't end on the second part. I also liked how it ended- Barbara was framed as the victim from the outset, but it sure looks like she's going to really be The Ogre's "partner in crime". I always thought Evil Barbara is much better than Damsel Barbara, especially because Erin Richards has that wonderful smirk going.

 

I did groan a bit at the suggestion that The Ogre got away with his crimes solely because he kills the loved ones of the police officers who chase him- obviously, the writers have never watched the early seasons of Criminal Minds, which could tell you a million different ways a serial killer can get away with his crimes without needing to invoke that. Plus, I figure Gotham is so corrupt that even mundane serial killers could likely get away with their crimes for years because the police work is so sketchy. Still, it's an interesting way of doing things, and does show that The Ogre is smart- in a place where not even the bad guys can be trusted, you have to have all of your bases covered.

 

That said, I'm not quite sure how Gordon leapt from his TV appearance to "he's going to a charity ball". That's one fault I wish this show would correct- I like the show's decision to focus on the drama and the characters as opposed to the details of police work, but I still think they flub the basics. Sure, every cop in Gotham would rather swill doughnuts than do their job, but the show has Gordon and Bullock, who are supposed to be good cops- so we should at least see that they have actual intelligence.

 

Liked Maroni using Oswald's mother against him- it's a callback to when Frankie was killed, because then Oswald said "when you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him". I asked then if anyone would figure out who Oswald loves. Looks like Maroni did.

 

Bruce and Selina...that subplot worked, because it was kept simple. It was also nice seeing the two of them squabble over the killing of Reggie, as it drove home who each of these characters are supposed to become- Bruce is supposed to be "good" and have morals, while Selina will grow up not letting things like "morals" get in the way of doing things. I'm not sure I like the idea of them drifting apart so soon, since I think Bruce can still learn a lot from Selina- and likewise- but at least we're finally seeing the characters take shape.

 

Oh, and A+ to Selina in that dress...she was stunning. It also fit her character, because even though she's dolled up, it had a very nice "gothic" vibe to it.

 

Lastly...Nygma. He may not know a thing or two about boundaries and personal respect, but at least he's got principles. I do think it's a bit "convenient" that Kringle gets a boyfriend who beats her- because, as I recall, Kringle's always worn sweaters of that length and she started dating that police officer a few episodes after her debut, but at least Nygma's defence of her becomes "justified". I do hope there's a bit more fallout from this, and that Kringle doesn't just jump into Nygma's arms- Nygma's descent into The Riddler should be gradual, and such a life changing moment should be given appropriate weight.

 

Great episode tonight.

[Slovenly Muse]

 

I did groan a bit at the suggestion that The Ogre got away with his crimes solely because he kills the loved ones of the police officers who chase him- obviously, the writers have never watched the early seasons of Criminal Minds, which could tell you a million different ways a serial killer can get away with his crimes without needing to invoke that. Plus, I figure Gotham is so corrupt that even mundane serial killers could likely get away with their crimes for years because the police work is so sketchy.

 

Yeah! I mean, it seems to me, wouldn't the fact that he targets the loved ones of the cops investigating him actually make him EASIER to catch? I mean, you know exactly where he's heading, right? Did no one think to just hold a press conference and say "I will be out working tirelessly day and night to catch this killer. And while I am doing that, my dear, vulnerable, defenseless spouse will be all alone at home, at the following address, where there is definitely NOT a heavily-armed officer hiding in every cupboard, cabinet and some standing around holding vases of flowers in front of their faces all inconspicuous-like. And if my spouse looks at first like a mannequin in a bad wig, don't worry about it. It's just because our lighting is really bad."

 

Just saying. If Jim HAD thought to warn Barbara about The Ogre, they'd have caught him by now. Because he went to meet Barbara in a public place TWICE. If she'd been under surveillance, or knew she should make a call if a stranger approached her, this whole thing would already be over. She took him back to HER place, for goodness sake. It would have been the top of the list of places to put under surveillance if she and Jim were still together (like The Ogre thought they were), but he went there anyway?

 

I guess these Gotham cops just look for any excuse not to do their jobs. "Eh, I don't think I'll take this case. If I do, the killer will just walk right up to my front door, and then I might actually get an arrest under my belt. The guys would never let me live it down!"

Edited April 21, 2015 by Slovenly Muse

[Kromm]

Why do I get the feeling Ogre and Barb are going to become a team?

"I didn't stab him, he slipped and fell on my knife several times!"

For me this seems to be heading heavily into territory where they could implement a heavily retconned version of the comic book storyline about

James Gordon Jr.  In theory Batgirl Barbara Junior has an older brother, who eventually turns out to be a psychopath. I could easily see this show taking a mix-and-match approach where Barbara Senior spawns a future psychopath with a current one (not quite the story in the comics), quietly manipulates things for her romantic competition for Gordon to be killed, then after the baddie who knocked her up is gone, slips back into a life with Jim (depending on the timing not even necessarily letting him know she's pregnant).

[Danielg342]

Yeah! I mean, it seems to me, wouldn't the fact that he targets the loved ones of the cops investigating him actually make him EASIER to catch? I mean, you know exactly where he's heading, right? Did no one think to just hold a press conference and say "I will be out working tirelessly day and night to catch this killer. And while I am doing that, my dear, vulnerable, defenseless spouse will be all alone at home, at the following address, where there is definitely NOT a heavily-armed officer hiding in every cupboard, cabinet and some standing around holding vases of flowers in front of their faces all inconspicuous-like. And if my spouse looks at first like a mannequin in a bad wig, don't worry about it. It's just because our lighting is really bad."

Just saying. If Jim HAD thought to warn Barbara about The Ogre, they'd have caught him by now. Because he went to meet Barbara in a public place TWICE. If she'd been under surveillance, or knew she should make a call if a stranger approached her, this whole thing would already be over. She took him back to HER place, for goodness sake. It would have been the top of the list of places to put under surveillance if she and Jim were still together (like The Ogre thought they were), but he went there anyway?

I guess these Gotham cops just look for any excuse not to do their jobs. "Eh, I don't think I'll take this case. If I do, the killer will just walk right up to my front door, and then I might actually get an arrest under my belt. The guys would never let me live it down!"

I agree, completely. Alternatively, they could have set Lee up- she's shown an interest and a proficiency at investigating, so they could have taken Lee and Jim to an apartment or house that poses as their place, have the press conference there with Jim kissing Lee at some point. Then the police put Lee under surveillance and wait.

I could buy that The Ogre's method would work, because it's a scary proposition for a police officer. However, all it would take is one officer to be game like Jim and the rest would be history.

[Sakura12]

They managed to make Barbara interesting. Good job show! I loved when she called out Selina's name, and the Orge got all startled that there was someone else there. He would've been more surprised to know that Barbara's "roommate" is a teenage street kid. Barbara going evil, I approve. 

 

It seems they are pushing forward with Catween turning more darkside. That's too bad I'd like to see more of her and Bruce before she goes that way. Because it'll be years before they come back together has Batman and Catwoman. I also liked Bruce sending Selina a whole bunch of clothes, the boy learned that trick early. 

[Milz]

For Star Trek watchers, Daniel Davis was the holodeck Moriarty on The Next Generation.

 

He was also Niles the butler on The Nanny. With Nicole Tom (Maggie on The Nanny) showing up a couple of episodes ago as Loeb's crazy daughter, i wouldn't be surprised if other Nanny alums appear.

 

Erin Richards has more chemistry with Milo Ventimiglia than she did with Ben.

[darkestboy]

I loved this one. It's taken them to nearly the end of the season but finally the writers have found a way to make Barbara actually interesting as a character.

This jaded, world weary version and her connection with Jason/Ogre made for a good episode and it's interesting to see if Barbara will actually survive Jason or become another one of his kills. Not sure which way I want it to go now to be honest.

The Bruce and Selina stuff was also great in this episode, especially as we saw the different moral codes they have but even at this age, they make for a great team so going after Bunderslaw worked well for them.

Nygma killing Kringle's boyfriend was something I thought would happen next season, not this one. Great scenes though his hair went mad as well, didn't it.

Oswald vs. Maroni became a lot more interesting now that Gertrud is aware of her son's killer tendencies as well. Way to make a plotline more interesting.

The Gordon/Bullock/Leslie/Essen scenes were solid but overshadowed by too many other things.

Didn't really miss Fish in this one, 8/10

[TobinAlbers]

I have no problem with Jim not thinking to alert Babs about The Ogre threat because as far as he knew she wasn't even in town and emotionally she wasn't someone he was in love with or love deeply anymore. She dumped him via a Dear John letter, went MIA for a long time with no communication to him whatsoever about her whereabouts. He got the message, dropped off the keys to her place and moved on. Lee is his present and Babs was his past so, yeah, not thinking bad of him for not cottoning on to she might be a target.

 

I do agree that if Lee was up for it she could be used as bait to hook The Ogre. At the very least put a tail on her since The Ogre was obviously keeping tabs on everything.

 

Babs and The Ogre do make a stunning couple. And yep, he makes her a lot more interesting. I'm intrigued to see where this goes. I do think she'll guide him to targeting Lee. And I can also see her breaking down and being committed to Arkham if Jim takes out The Ogre only for her to come back as a supervillain in S2. Could be interesting.

 

My heart broke for Nygma as it wasn't like he willingly crossed the line into villainy but snapped in the moment. And as shady as the cop was, Ed's killed a cop, there's no coming back from that. It's like what the Ogre's dad wanted to believe about his son 'He is a good man who made one mistake'. Ed does seem like he's not the type to shrug off what happened and what he did. Even as he was laughing hysterically he was saying 'Oh, dear' so a part of him knew the horrific act he committed even as another part of him reveled in the release.

 

I've never been a fan of Selena in any incarnation (same with Lois Lane: I feel Bruce and Clark can do so much better than their OTP) but the actress is doing a good job. I wonder if Alfred will be horrified and pissed beyond belief about Reggie's death and be at odds with Selena, despondent that he put his young master in that position, or oddly okay that the kids took matters in their own hands.

 

Young Bruce's impeccable manners with Barbara Keane when he picked up Selena was soooooo the seeds of the suave billionaire playboy persona Bruce adopts. She was charmed and he was charming. Nice they got a scene together.

[Milz]

 

I've never been a fan of Selena in any incarnation (same with Lois Lane: I feel Bruce and Clark can do so much better than their OTP) but the actress is doing a good job. I wonder if Alfred will be horrified and pissed beyond belief about Reggie's death and be at odds with Selena, despondent that he put his young master in that position, or oddly okay that the kids took matters in their own hands.

 

Young Bruce's impeccable manners with Barbara Keane when he picked up Selena was soooooo the seeds of the suave billionaire playboy persona Bruce adopts. She was charmed and he was charming. Nice they got a scene together.

 

I have a feeling Reggie isn't dead. Neither of them checked to see if he was dead and since this is tv/comics.....

 

I commented on the Bruce and his Two Dads thread that it's okay for the writers to show us that Bruce is developing his detective/ Batman skills, but they also have to cool it down because Bruce needs to develop "Bruce Wayne" into the filthy rich, playboy Gotham would never suspect of being Batman. He won't get that reputation if he continues to run around playing Nick and Nora with Selina Kyle.

[Delphi]

Once again Gotham learned that that didn't need to cram every single character into their own story line every single episode. Even though this was quite a packed episode it actually had room to breathe with the absence of our blue eyed girl, Fish. I love Jada, but I don't need to see her in a murder basement spa thing contributing absolutely nothing to the plot.

Erin Richards was very good during this one, in fact I've noticed that she has decent chemistry with every one except Ben Mackenzie and I wonder if they even screen tested them before the show got off the ground. Or maybe she was always supposed to be unlikable with Jim.

The teenagers continue to impress me more than the adult actors. Maybe it's because I don't expect as much from them but they handle all of their scenes very well. Selina was completely justified in killing that dude and every one of her reasons was valid, it's only a matter of time before they go after Bruce anyways, I would have done the same thing. And it's very much a Catwoman thing to do, she might not be as murderous as Riddler or Penguin but when push comes to shove, she'll definitely drop the hammer. I hated that dress on her though, that was absolutely horrid, I know she's a teenager but still, my sister wouldn't have been caught dead in that dress even at fourteen. Though I'm glad they've started calling her Selina more and Cat less. That's nice. I'm also enjoying her and Barbara's 'sisters doing it for themselves' vibe.

The plot moving through multiple episodes rather than just one or two really make a difference, it's almost like I'm watching a different show in the best possible way. It's a shame they couldn't figure that out earlier in the season. Alas theres always next fall.

Not enough Alfred lately, hopefully they rectify that in the coming two weeks.

And apparently there is not an apartment in all of Gotham with a bad view or lacking amazing windows. I'm seriously in love with the set design on this show. It's totally aces.

Looks like Sal is on the way out, whether Carmine likes it or not.

[TobinAlbers]

 

I commented on the Bruce and his Two Dads thread that it's okay for the writers to show us that Bruce is developing his detective/ Batman skills, but they also have to cool it down because Bruce needs to develop "Bruce Wayne" into the filthy rich, playboy Gotham would never suspect of being Batman. He won't get that reputation if he continues to run around playing Nick and Nora with Selina Kyle.

 

It's the problem the audience was having with Smallville's Clark Kent: He was front and center sans glasses around a lot of the heroics in Smallville as well as was bopping around sans glasses. Years later when he's donned the cape, NO ONE from Smallville or who traveled through there is gonna see Superman and be like 'Hey, Clark!'?

 

I feel like Bruce may get away with his early inquisitive years because the people who see him as inquisitive now will probably be long gone by the time Bruce transitions into the cape and/or Bruce will realize after this early season escapade that he needs to play his cards close to the belt and begin playing the long con of outwardly carefree rich kid heir to throw off the people he knows is watching while he privately plots, plans, and trains. Alfred has already been hurt by his actions so Bruce will realize that to protect his loved one(s) he needs to be more careful if he's to continue his crusade.

[Milz]

It's the problem the audience was having with Smallville's Clark Kent: He was front and center sans glasses around a lot of the heroics in Smallville as well as was bopping around sans glasses. Years later when he's donned the cape, NO ONE from Smallville or who traveled through there is gonna see Superman and be like 'Hey, Clark!'?

 

I feel like Bruce may get away with his early inquisitive years because the people who see him as inquisitive now will probably be long gone by the time Bruce transitions into the cape and/or Bruce will realize after this early season escapade that he needs to play his cards close to the belt and begin playing the long con of outwardly carefree rich kid heir to throw off the people he knows is watching while he privately plots, plans, and trains. Alfred has already been hurt by his actions so Bruce will realize that to protect his loved one(s) he needs to be more careful if he's to continue his crusade.

 

I figure they're all in denial. I think it was explained best in Buffy, when she gets the Sunnydale High School Protector award---because everyone knows weird stuff happens and everyone knows she's always there to help when it does, but they quite can't put their finger on exactly how the two things are related but they know it sort of is and isn't.

 

Maybe Alfred will give Bruce a copy of Baroness Orczy's The Scarlet Pimpernel or they'll watch the 1934 Leslie Howard and Merle Oberon film. But however they choose to do it, the writers have to start developing Bruce's carefree, playboy image sooner than later. For example, Bruce should be learning that the box step can only take you so far on the dance floor and the difference between black tie and white tie in relation to "formal" functions. Seriously, the only one appropriately dressed for a ball was Selina, who was actually wearing a ball gown, not an evening gown like Barbara.

[SimoneS]

Batman's story does differ from Superman. It is understandable that no one recognizes him when he is dressed as Batman. This is from the comics so I will put spoiler tags in case.

In the most comics, Bruce left Gotham to see the world and go to "college" when he was 14 years old or so. He does not return until he is 25 years old when he becomes Batman. Plus Bruce wears a mask that covers half his face as Batman. Only Alfred and maybe Lucius Fox and Leslie would recognize Bruce since they knew him as a child.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SimoneS

[Traveller519]

Oh Sisterhood of the Apartment of No Pants, you guys never cease to amuse me.

 

"Eh, she's kind of a roommate, when she's here." 

 

"I guess I'll see you there."

"What?"

 

"That's a pretty crappy drawing."

 

I only wish Ivy was around rolling her eyes at both of them.

 

I thought Selina's dress was appropriate. I think Selina's supposed to be in the 14 age range where she can play up to dealing with the adults but still has a bit of that youthful innocence that a few years younger Bruce sees in her. Bruce sent over a dress that would be appropriate for someone his age. I'm sure she would have looked great in a sleek ball gown, but it wouldn't have worked palling around with Bruce.

[Milz]

Batman's story does differ from Superman. It is understandable that no one recognizes him when he is dressed as Batman. This is from the comics so I will put spoiler tags in case.

In the most comics, Bruce left Gotham to see the world and go to "college" when he was 14 years old or so. He does not return until he is 25 years old when he becomes Batman. Plus Bruce wears a mask that covers half his face as Batman. Only Alfred and maybe Lucius Fox and Leslie would recognize Bruce since they knew him as a child.

 

I agree most people wouldn't be able to recognize Bruce as Batman. But like LordPercy Blakeney and Don Diego de la Vega, Bruce Wayne has to be the last person anyone would suspect of being Batman for the secret identity thing to work. He has to be so far off the radar that anyone who even entertains the idea that Bruce Wayne is Batman is considered a nutcase. Again,if the writers continue to show Nick and Nora Charles...er.....Bruce and Selina playing junior PIs then it will be harder for anyone who knows Bruce to think he is anyone but Batman, when Batman finally shows up.

 

Depending on which canon, another person on the list of who knows Bruce is Batman

is Ma Chilton.

[Blakeston]

I have no problem with Jim not thinking to alert Babs about The Ogre threat because as far as he knew she wasn't even in town and emotionally she wasn't someone he was in love with or love deeply anymore. She dumped him via a Dear John letter, went MIA for a long time with no communication to him whatsoever about her whereabouts. He got the message, dropped off the keys to her place and moved on. Lee is his present and Babs was his past so, yeah, not thinking bad of him for not cottoning on to she might be a target.

 

People knew that he and Barbara were involved, though, right? It's not likely the Ogre would know the details of their breakup. He'd most likely do his best to figure out who Jim has been involved with as of late. Lee made sense as a potential target, but Barbara should have been foreseeable, too.

 

Even if Jim thought she was out of town, I would have expected him to try to contact her.

[Philbert]

 

Erin Richards was very good during this one, in fact I've noticed that she has decent chemistry with every one except Ben Mackenzie and I wonder if they even screen tested them before the show got off the ground. Or maybe she was always supposed to be unlikable with Jim.

 

 

I'm wondering if you're not absolutely correct here. I've been trying to figure out what the writers have been doing with her since the beginning of the series. The conventional wisdom (never a good thing) here has been that the writers merely screwed up and didn't know what to do with her. I am wondering now if they have always planned on taking her down a very dark path. Obviously Erin Richards can handle the job so I'm looking forward to it.

[Chaos Theory]

Spinoff!

Ogre and the Heiress. Serial killing around Gotham on a chanel near you.

[Delphi]

I'm wondering if you're not absolutely correct here. I've been trying to figure out what the writers have been doing with her since the beginning of the series. The conventional wisdom (never a good thing) here has been that the writers merely screwed up and didn't know what to do with her. I am wondering now if they have always planned on taking her down a very dark path. Obviously Erin Richards can handle the job so I'm looking forward to it.

I wouldn't assume they always intended her to go dark, but if we were going off canon, it's clear that Jim and Barbara are not going to be an end game couple. They get married in order to make Jim Jr. And adopt the younger Barbara, but it ends in divorce.

Of course, Gotham isn't exactly working off the source material one hundred percent.

I think it's possible that were desperate for something for Barbara to do but couldn't figure it out. They seemed to be bouncing all over the place. One of the advantages of this season is that it was at least partly written as they went and they had the chance to correct course with her and managed to choose a pretty compelling plot with her and I'm actually looking forward to watching it unfold.

[Milz]

I wouldn't assume they always intended her to go dark, but if we were going off canon, it's clear that Jim and Barbara are not going to be an end game couple. They get married in order to make Jim Jr. And adopt the younger Barbara, but it ends in divorce.

Of course, Gotham isn't exactly working off the source material one hundred percent.

I think it's possible that were desperate for something for Barbara to do but couldn't figure it out. They seemed to be bouncing all over the place. One of the advantages of this season is that it was at least partly written as they went and they had the chance to correct course with her and managed to choose a pretty compelling plot with her and I'm actually looking forward to watching it unfold.

 

It depends which canon pieces they choose to use (since the DC Universe is so screwed up after Crisis and all the reboots). 

Pre-Crisis, Batgirl is Jim and Barbara's biologic daughter and there is no Jim Jr.

 

Anyhow, I'm just shocked that Barbara is able to drop off the map for several months and without her art gallery suffering for it.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Milz