S04.E19: Sympathy For The De Vil

[dr pepper]

I find growling german shepherds scary. Also dobermans, pit bulls, great danes, saint bernards, and sometimes collies. Dalmatians? Not so much.

Edited April 20, 2015 by dr pepper

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Count me in as one of the people who loves dogs and therefore found the dalmatians completely non-menacing. The wagging tails really made it hard for me to see them as ay kind of threat.

 

At the beginning of the episode, I thought come on, show, you're really going to give us a Cinderella redux with the poor little girl who suffers after her father dies? So it was nice to see that Cruella was just a straight up crazy murdering bitch. I will still miss her though. She had most of the funny lines in 4B. I totally cracked up when she told Mal that she had a reason for lying about Lily dying and then just admitted that it was because she's a horrible person and left the baby to die. I mean, I know abandoning a child to die isn't funny but I found it hilarious that Cruella started out trying to placate Mal and then decided screw it, I'll just tell the truth.

 

I also loved that when Henry ran away, Cruella was just annoyed that she had to quit playing Angry Birds but she wasn't actually enraged or anything.

 

So now we are down to Mal and Zelena, two of my least favorite villains. I'd be okay with them taking each other out so that we are just left with Gold.

 

It says a lot about the writing when the most I've like Belle is when she is Regina's hand puppet. Even when she was standing there staring blankly ahead, I liked her more than I usually do.

 

I'm on the side that thinks Emma killing Cruella because she was threatening to kill Henry doesn't make her dark or evil. Now if she had known that Cruella couldn't kill anyone and then magicked her off the cliff anyway, I could see that being a lot darker but given the circumstances we saw, no, Emma didn't do a heart blackening thing.

 

 

 

Props to the makeup department. Emma looks like hot garbage right now.

It's kind of hilarious that they mostly achieved this by simply removing the huge thick dark fake eyelashes and black eyeliner they have had her wearing for the past few seasons.

 

 

 

You won't like this episode if you...

... don't want to dance to swing music.

... wish Henry had fallen off the cliff instead.

Ha, the entire list was awesome but these two made me laugh.

 

Heroes don't kill?  Well, Superman had to kill once.  Wonder Woman also.  Wolverine kills often.  Hell, even a sparkly rainbow hero like Sailor Moon offs her enemies, at least in the original manga.  And, guess what?  Snow White has killed.  As has Hook.  Charming, no doubt, killed more than a few of Regina's guards.  But, you also know what? They're still good.  They didn't let darkness overtake them.  Military people, who we revere as heroes, have to kill, but many are still good people.  Traumatized, yes, but a lot don't become Hannibal Lecter.  So, I'm calling a hard bullshit on this "heroes don't kill" plotpoint.

ITA with all of this. Heroes do kill when they have to. That doesn't make them evil or dark or Not Heroes. Heroes kill for the greater good, to save other people, to prevent even larger tragedies from happening. If Cruella had been ready to press a button that would blow up Storybrooke and Emma shot her to keep her from killing the entire town, would that make Emma not a hero? No, of course not.

 

Heroes kill because they have to. Villains kill for fun, to cause chaos, because they enjoy causing pain.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[FurryFury]

Dark spot #2? Seriously, show, you would repeat such a badly-received storyline? Does it matter if Cruella could kill or not? She was an evil person who directly threatened Henry. Emma was 100% right to kill her. It shouldn't "drive her dark" or whatever. Such bullshit.

 

I did like the twist with Cruella's backstory. I guess we've all got so used to villain sob stories that I didn't expect her to be evil from the get go. I didn't quite understand what she was saying to the Author just before she got the ink all over her (damn accent!) Did it explain why exactly she was evil? I mean, isn't the show's motto "Evil isn't born, it's made"? It sure seems like that in this case, it was born.

 

Such a waste that both Ursula and Cruella got comparatively OK backstories (although Cruella would have been so much better without the Author nonsense, because his powers and existence still make no damn sense), while Maleficent gets the Lily crap.

[Arnella]

 

I'm awful but Rumple deserves to get his heart trampled on. He's just not fun to watch.

I only watch this show for Robert Carlyle and even I have to agree with this.  He hasn't been any fun since he came back and got "the band back together".  I hope they resolve this heart thing soon.

[Rumsy4]

The one thing I found stupid in Emma's decision to blast Cruella over the edge was the risk to Henry. There was no guarantee Henry wouldn't also topple over the edge with Cruella. A freezing spell may have worked better.

Same thing when Regina threatened to crush Belle's heart standing inches from Runple, and them turning her back to him and walking away. Smart.... very smart... "insert eye roll"

[Dani-Ellie]

But seriously. get over it. get. over. it.  Your parents lied to you. You are 29+ years old. get over it. Your parents did a horrible thing. Guess what they are human (and just as stupid). Get over it. They aren't perfect. get over it. (But I don't really like Emma, so maybe I just want to get over her).

 

The thing is, though, if you want to read into a storyline seed that was planted in "The Snow Queen," this is more than just Snow and Charming doing a horrible thing and lying to Emma about it. This is about Snow and Charming not trusting their own child to grow into a good person before she was even born. "How many times have you felt more like a savior than their daughter?" From Emma's perspective, Emma was still in the womb and not only were they trying to ensure she became a hero but they also screwed over someone else's child to do it. And then they preached to her goodness and light and virtue while all the while hiding the fact that they, too, had done something terrible.

 

Emma has massive self-esteem issues and now she doesn't even know whether the choices she'd made her entire life have been her own. (I believe they were but I can completely understand Emma questioning it.)

 

Not only that but how long has it been since they told her? I'm willing to bet it's been a day or two at most. She's finally let these people in, trusting them completely, and then she finds out not only have they been keeping something from her since she met them but also that from the womb, she herself wasn't good enough for them because they had to do something to her in utero to make her turn out the way they wanted.

 

(And I fully understand that Snow and Charming were in a more complicated situation than I've laid out above and that they were trying to protect Emma. I'm just saying, from Emma's perspective, considering her lifelong abandonment issues and how she was never enough for anyone while she was growing up, what Snow and Charming did has 1) gotta sting, and 2) bring up all these issues for her.)

[myril]

Sort of enjoyable episode just for Cruella. Normally would have loved a visit to the 1920s style, but somehow it didn't do that much for me on this show. Still, seeing the development of the author here was interesting (and gave me plenty of ideas, too bad this plot is such a stupid one on this show), and Cruella being a "bad girl" from the beginning was something different. In my headcanon she turned the skin of her mother into leather shoes or something, and not just the dogs into a jacket. As Cruella herself told the author, sometimes there might be no good answer to the question why.

 

Emma killing Cruella. So no surprise there. And somehow not a surprise, that the villain Emma now killed with a touch of rage was not some sob story evil but pretty much straight typical fictional kind of crazy psychopath. Quite silly, because it makes it harder to feel any kind of ambiguity about Emma killing her. Not even the somewhat interesting twist, that the author condemned Cruella to be not able "to take away the life of another" (well not their lives but the wording certainly doesn't exclude wounding, maiming, causing excrutiating pain for the rest of their lives) creates much ambiguity. Emma was seeing Cruella threating Henry's live, she didn't knowCruella couldn't kill. And while being not able to take a life Cruella very well was still able to defend herself, she was in no way a defenseless person. These writers so suck to write good gray.

 

If drawing a parallel to Anakin Skywalker  / Darth Vader: Anakin's downfall was not that he killed people but that he was driven by rage and revenge and an overwhelming, obsessive urge to protect his loved ones no matter what even if it leads to harming innocent people. It was the willingness to misuse his great power in selfish ways, for his own comfort, to control the world and fate and death in an attempt to protect his loved ones because he couldn't bear the though to lose them. He was not acting out of calculated selfishness like endless greed for richess or lust for power, which can be evil too, but it might be even worse when you're intentions are seemingly good but uncrompemising and damaging in the end even the people you claim to do it for. Anakin became Darth Vader because he let himself be driven at some point utterly by angst and anger. He stayed Darth Vader, because of self hate and that there seemed nothing left in the world for him but revenge and hate (until he learned of his son).

 

And looks like they think they are going on a sort of Anakin/Darth Vader trip for a bit with Emma on the show now, like what would happen to Leia if... Oh wait, didn't Emma call herself Princess Leia? Emma's problem was not so much that she defended her son and for that killed Cruella, that in itself would mean nothing and most certainly not a first step on a way to evil. The look they showed on her face though might have been meant as a hint, that they made her feel a painful satisfaction doing it.

 

Those reddened eyes, geee, instantely made me think of Anakin turning crazily obsessed with protecting his wife and going finally to the dark side.

 

The Darth Vader origin story as shown in Star Wars was to some degree already rather pathetique and had weaknesses, but the kitchen sink psychology of these writers (or should say playroom psychology) makes me expect them to turn it into something fluffy and ridiculous. These writers always think they are telling the great drama, not seeing what they produce is most of the time a ridiculously bad copy.

 

It involves the stupid rage breaking point trope, or bottled up anger idea, because Emma has shown before IMO no signs of anger management issues. Wearing your feeling not on your sleeves and being guarded around people is thoough not the same as bottling up anger. Oh, wait. shouldn't forget Ingrid's influence, that might have triggered the bad energy dorment somewhere inside Emma, plus fraked up live and parents failing issues. Uhm, wait , wasn't the spell meant to take that bad energy out of Emma? Was she reinfected when hers and Lilly's way crossed? Think I need a bottle of Canadian Whiskey to think that through.

 

Going with the Star Wars parallel, Rumple would now equal Palpatine/Darth Sidious more or less, as the one pushing and tempting Emma to go to the dark side, for his own purpose of course (as he had done before with the Mills women). The Evil with a Thousand Faces.

 

Speaking of Rumple. So the dark magic or his dark doings have a price. Something. I hope he is not going to survive this season. Let him leave the stage finally and forever with a big bad bang, so to speak.

 

Maybe should get my copy of Joseph Campell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" out again for some reading.

 

 

Count me in as one of the people who loves dogs and therefore found the dalmatians completely non-menacing. The wagging tails really made it hard for me to see them as ay kind of threat.

 

Big mistake and a reason why people get bitten: to think, a dog wagging its tail is always friendly and in a good mood. Nope, it can be as much a sign of nervousness, insecuritiy or even a warning. Pongo had his tail for example at least in one cut rather low while wagging, more the nervous and submissive kind of wagging -  I would be careful with such a dog, keep distance and try to relax him, it's likely a sign of fear (petting a fearful dog is no good idea, he might snap at you). Admitted, the next cut Pongo's tail was bit higher and closer to a friendly, "hey I know you" wag. A tail wagging up high can be a sign of confidence, "I'm the boss", but as much a warning, so don't be surprised if that dog jumps at you for a bite when you try to pet that "cute doggie". The signals of the dogs were mixed, but didn't see any clear"happy to met you" wag, so I would have been cautious with them, and I am far from being angsty with dogs.

Edited April 20, 2015 by myril

[YaddaYadda]

This show is all kinds of stupid.  Do they not realize that Emma is not only the mother of the child that was kidnapped but also the town's sheriff where you know sometimes you might have to kill because you're supposed to serve and protect?

 

They clearly did not think this one through and how being in law enforcement ups your chances at killing someone.

 

So A&E, seriously!!   ,,l,,

[kennyab]

So, a parent names her child Cruella and is then surprised that said child becomes a psychopath?

[darkestboy]

That was bloody fantastic. Cruella got one of the best backstories we've had in recent times in the show.

Instead of giving us another sob story for the villain, the writers revelled in having Cruella being a total psychopath and embracing it to the full hilt.

The twists and turns with Cruella and Isaac were also great to watch. I loved the idea of him rendering her unable to kill and that being able to murder was her 'happy ending'. Delightfully twisted that was.

Cruella was doomed the moment she took Henry though. I don't see how Emma defending her own child, even if it resulted in Cruella's demise should be enough to turn her fully dark though.

The 1920s background really elevated the episode but Dalmations as attack dogs while inspired, just didn't feel really threatening though.

Regina outsmarting Rumple with Belle's heart was a smart move. Not good for Belle though, 8/10

[LetItStop]

Never has there been a less terror inducing scene that being chased by Dalmatians. I don’t think ‘ahhh, aren’t they cute’ was the reaction they were going for.

I have to disagree. When I was a kid, we had a dalmatian and several other dogs. The spotted bastard bit the balls off a poodle. Traumatizing! Ever since, Dalmatians have freaked me out. All those spots... like a hundred eyes, always watching, waiting for the chance to chomp your dangly bits.

[DeLurker]

I feel as if the Author is miscast.  He doesn't come across as interesting at all nor have I been given any reason why he would be chosen to do such a significant thing.  Of course, the writing doesn't help, but ...

 

So we're left with Mal & Zelena?  Not looking forward to that, especially since I tend to confuse them when they aren't in their respective costumes.

 

Add me to the list of those loving Cruella.  Cray-cray as she may be, she never bored me.

[LetItStop]

I feel as if the Author is miscast.

So much this. I was starting to think the actor is just terrible, but maybe it's a casting/ writing issue instead (or in addition to).

[ShadowFacts]

Disclaimer:  I quit this show last fall, because I don't hate-watch.  Tuned in last night because I was sick in bed and nothing else on that interested me. 

 

Agree that Dalmations can be bad news.  They have an undeserved sweet rep because of what? Disney, firehouses?  We have one in the neighborhood who has a bad temperament, and my daughter works at a dog daycare, where Dalmations are amongst the least favorite of the workers.  And as said above, tail-wagging isn't always friendly.

 

Mainly I wanted to come in here and see what you all thought.  Interesting insights as always.  I miss these much more than the show itself.  I don't think this has been mentioned:  my take on Regina and Belle and the heart control was that Belle was in on it, Regina said she was glad that Belle was interested in helping out or however it was phrased.  I felt it was all a charade- - that was not Belle's heart, it was a random one from the vault, and Belle was playing along, and probably coming up with her own lines. 

[DeLurker]

Mainly I wanted to come in here and see what you all thought.  Interesting insights as always.  I miss these much more than the show itself.  I don't think this has been mentioned:  my take on Regina and Belle and the heart control was that Belle was in on it, Regina said she was glad that Belle was interested in helping out or however it was phrased.  I felt it was all a charade- - that was not Belle's heart, it was a random one from the vault, and Belle was playing along, and probably coming up with her own lines. 

I was speculating this is the case too.  I don't normally find Belle interesting at all (although I love her teamed up with Ariel), but she was good last night and sucker punched Rumple with the Will kissing comment.

Edited April 20, 2015 by DeLurker

[Chicken Wing]

Highlight of the episode: Cruella playing Angry Birds.

 

The rest? Meh.

 

Well, not entirely. Cruella's backstory was actually pretty neat, and I admit I was totally fooled. I didn't see her as the killer coming - probably because this show has a habit of making the "villains" good in their origins but then driven to bad things for "good" reasons. I liked that Cruella was just plain psycho from day one, and she had me fooled, too. Classic sociopath. Author Guy is so creepy in general that I was actually more worried for her, hanging out with him. I would swear he must have been up to something, and then he got hosed, too. Heh.

 

Also, dalmatians aren't all that scary with CGI angry-mouths painted on their faces.

 

And, I'm sorry, show, but it doesn't matter that Cruella couldn't actually kill Henry. Emma didn't know that. She didn't knowingly and callously kill a defenseless woman. I don't even think she magic-blasted her with the deliberate intention of killing her - she just happened to fall off the cliff. No, she was striking out at the woman who kidnapped her son and threatened to kill him, and for all she reasonably knew, she would make good on that threat. She's a crazy Villain, after all. And even if Emma did know that Cruella was only bluffing, so what? Was she supposed to just stand there and not do anything because Cruella was "unarmed"? (This actually reminds me of the last season of Desperate Housewives, where they all felt the need to cover up Carlos's killing Gaby's evil stepfather because he didn't actually have a gun and so Carlos killed an "unarmed man." Yeah, but he was still attacking Gaby, so, self-defense still applies, ya idiots.)

 

And how come whenever Belle shows any real personality, it's because she's under (apparently willing) magical control and someone else is actually speaking through her? Blah.

 

This show is making my cranium throb.

 

Oh, and I almost forgot the second highlight: For just about every episode since this half-season began, the Cruella de Vil song starts playing in my head from the moment the show starts. I was quite relieved when they actually finally played the damn thing.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Chicken Wing

[whyjoshua]

I am wondering how Cruella got to the Enchanted Forest.  And how she met Ursula and Maleficent.  And how she survived as a villain without killing anyone.  It just seems like her villainy would be severely hampered by not being able to commit murder.

I think the flashback earlier this year, when Rumple invited Cruella and Ursula to Maleficent's castle to take them to Chernabog's lair, was their original meeting. None of the three women seemed to know each other then, and they proved their trustworthiness (to each other) when Cruella and Ursula stayed behind to save Maleficent from the demon. That was probably the beginning of their friendship. That's one thing I think they've really screwed up—from the flashbacks it's clear the Cruella/Ursula/Maleficent were a team for a long time in the Enchanted Forest. They adventured together, Cruella and Ursula stood guard while Maleficent was nesting, etc. Yet in Storybrooke they act like they're barely acquainted, and they turn on each other at a moment's notice. I know they're "villains" (well, Cruella and Maleficent are, at least), but the backstory has emphasized that they're also supposed to be close friends.

 

I'm not sure what you meant by her villainy being hampered by not being able to commit murder. It's not entirely clear what Cruella's job in the Enchanted Forest was, or why Rumple considered her a villain. I like to imagine she was a barfly who, whenever she had enough gin in her, always started talking about that one time she offed her mum.

 

As for how Cruella got to the Forest, I doubt we'll ever find out. (Also, how did she teleport the Author's car to the Land Without Magic?)

Edited April 20, 2015 by whyjoshua

[DeLurker]

As for how Cruella got to the Forest, I doubt we'll ever find out. (Also, how did she teleport the Author's car to the Land Without Magic?)

 

Via the Inter-Realm Toll Road, now with HOV Lanes!

[John S]

Emma isn't evil yet - but she appears to be on her way there.

[YaddaYadda]

I swear they better not have Regina give crap to Emma about killing Cruella. Regina would have done it without a second's hesitation.

 

I'm pretty sure that's what she was planning on doing when they were in the loft and she replied that it was Emma's heart they were trying to protect and not hers.

[Primetimer]

The continuing story of a fairy tale that's gone to the dogs.

Read the story

[The Cake is a Pie]

The most entertaining character left on the show and of course they toss her off a cliff. Can we trade Zelena for Cruella to fill the resurrected villain slot instead?

Also, I don't care if you are a villain, hero, serial killer, or complete innocent. If you hold a gun to my child's head, I will kill you dead. You can label me whatever you want afterwards from the grave.

This show.

[RadioGirl27]

I have come to a point that I have read all this thread without actually watching the episode. I have it downloaded but I don't mind waiting until tomorrow to watch it, and it makes me sad. Right now I'm watching only for Hook and he is barely on the show anymore. But this doesn't bother me like it used to, at least this way the writers can't destroy him like they have done with Snow and Charming, and thay are trying to do with Emma. And, by the way, what Emma did is totally understandable. Any mother that loves his child would have done exactly the same.

Edited April 20, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Rumsy4]

But I think the real darkness in Emma is not that she killed, but that she can't forgive (except Regina for some inexplicable reason), that she can't give up her anger, that she is hating more than she loves (yes, we have the ongoing saga of her love for her son, but I am questioning her other affections). 

 

This is the woman who has forgiven Regina, August, and Neal for all they did to her. She doesn't hate her parents. She is justifiably angry with them. Yeah--the way she is lashing out is not pretty to watch, but it's barely been a day or two since she found out what her parents did to her and another baby. Reconciliations and rebuilding of trust take time. 

[John S]

YES - Emma saved her son from what she perceived as danger. No one will argue that. What is unnerving is the lack of emotion that she showed after she had killed Cruella. MOST "good" people, and Emma is supposed to be good, would have shown that they were sorry, disappointed that it had to come to this, regretful, or SOMETHING. Instead, Emma showed nothing.

While that doesn't make her an evil person, it could very well be the first step towards becoming evil.

[Chicken Wing]

What is unnerving is the lack of emotion that she showed after she had killed Cruella. MOST "good" people, and Emma is supposed to be good, would have shown that they were sorry, disappointed that it had to come to this, regretful, or SOMETHING. Instead, Emma showed nothing.

 

She might have, if Cruella had been her friend, or ally, or someone that she had any reason to hesitate striking out on. But Cruella was none of these things, and Emma never thought she was, and in that moment the former evildoer was threatening to do something evil to her son. I don't see why Emma should express remorse over doing what she had to do in that moment, especially since it's been only about ten seconds since that moment happened. Who knows - maybe in the next episode, after some time has passed, she will feel conflicted over what she did, using her magic to hurt someone, to kill someone, on purpose.

[Zuleikha]

What is unnerving is the lack of emotion that she showed after she had killed Cruella. MOST "good" people, and Emma is supposed to be good, would have shown that they were sorry, disappointed that it had to come to this, regretful, or SOMETHING.

 

I agree with that. I just don't think the show has earned it with Emma. She's being made up to look like she hasn't slept in weeks and she was on the edge before Cruella held a gun to Henry, but for most of the episodes in this arc, she's been happier than she's been in years (or perhaps ever). Pinocchio ending up as August could have been used to start a slide with Emma upset about boy Pinocchio getting caught up in the QoD scheming and anger with Regina for giving her the slip, but instead Emma ended up just happy that August was back. 

 

So Emma's been basically happy up until the Snow/Charming confession. I don't know what I'm missing with how the show thinks of it, but while I'm completely on board with Emma being upset with Snow/Charming for lying to her and I'm on board with a degree of existential angst about what the whole spell means for her, I'm not on board for that revelation being the start of a heart darkening spiral. It just doesn't seem like the right result from it. Emma as a character would care about having to kill Cruella in front of Henry, for Henry's sake if absolutely nothing else (although Emma will probably feel a lot better about it when she learns that Cruella's goal was to get her ability to murder people for funsies back). She wouldn't collapse in her bed for multiple days a la Snow post-Cora, but she would comfort Henry and explain the necessity.

 

I also think the show should have made Emma's magic red for that final push. I know there are no good rules to magic on this show, but the little bit that we've been told is that light magic is inherently good. Also, we've bee shown that Emma's magic comes from a place of love and protectiveness. Emma's magic being light implies that her push of Cruella was out of pure concern for Henry. If it had been red, Regina's typical color, it would show us both that she did the push out of anger (where Regina's been taught to draw from for magic) and that Emma accessed dark magic for the first time.

[YaddaYadda]

I agree with that. I just don't think the show has earned it with Emma. She's being made up to look like she hasn't slept in weeks and she was on the edge before Cruella held a gun to Henry, but for most of the episodes in this arc, she's been happier than she's been in years (or perhaps ever)

 

There was one scene in particular in the episode where she was so low energy.  When she's getting out of her chair to go look for Henry, it's like she had this moment of complete exhaustion.  I honestly thought she was going to faint.

[Helena Dax]

I don't know  if Emma's turning dark, but there were moments I thought she was turning into a zombie. 

 

Loved Cruella and the Author, the twists were great. 

 

Loved what Regina did to Gold, too. He totally deserved it. And I think it's pretty important that she didn't agree to bertray Emma in order to save Robin; she found a third way. That's huge  for someone like her. 

[John S]

If I'm mistaken, then someone will correct me. This MAY be the first time that Emma has killed someone. We will have to see what, if any, emotions, she has about this. I have never killed anyone but I would think that a person would feel SOMETHING. If she doesn't feel anything, then she is a lot closer to being evil, then we would have imagined.

There are only a few more episodes left, if she turns, it will happen in the next 3 to 4 weeks.

[YaddaYadda]

This MAY be the first time that Emma has killed someone.

 

She killed Walsh.  For some reason we keep forgetting about Walsh, but Walsh died at Emma's hand.  She pushed him off the roof and then took a pipe at his flying monkey self and he poofed out when he hit the ground, so I'm assuming he died.  And Emma certainly thinks he has because she put him in the list of people she's lost in 403.

[Rumsy4]

I also think the show should have made Emma's magic red for that final push. I know there are no good rules to magic on this show, but the little bit that we've been told is that light magic is inherently good. Also, we've bee shown that Emma's magic comes from a place of love and protectiveness. Emma's magic being light implies that her push of Cruella was out of pure concern for Henry. If it had been red, Regina's typical color, it would show us both that she did the push out of anger (where Regina's been taught to draw from for magic) and that Emma accessed dark magic for the first time.

 

Exactly! I was expecting the color of her magic to change in that moment. But it was white. So, she did out of love to protect Henry--not out of anger or vengeance. Not sure why that is supposed to turn her Dark.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Rumsy4

[FurryFury]

Emma's magic being light implies that her push of Cruella was out of pure concern for Henry. If it had been red, Regina's typical color, it would show us both that she did the push out of anger

 

Yeah, I don't know about that. Just remember how Hook's and Zelena's hearts were all red without any dark spots. Continuity clearly doesn't apply to this show anymore.

[sharky]

I don't think she killed Walsh. He lunged for her and she ducked, which caused him to go over the edge, no? So she was active this time and actually used magic, which I think will be a factor.

[Shanna Marie]

If part of Emma's angst about the egg baby secret is that she feels bad about what was done to the other baby, isn't that a sign that Emma isn't dark? I mean, if she'd been okay with that, we'd have problems. That would be Regina-level selfish. But the fact that she does feel bad is a good sign. I will cling to that hope.

 

I do wonder if Belle was in on Regina's scheme and if so, where she left off and Regina began. Like the bit about wondering if she threw out the chipped teacup too soon. How would Regina know the significance of that? She wasn't at the wedding to hear those vows, so I don't see how that could have been something Regina made Belle say. If Belle said it, was she sincere? Because I think it was more a case that she should have thrown out the chipped teacup a lot sooner, before it sliced open her lip. If she was sincere, then does she really think she was too hasty to give up on a man who was deceiving to her even as he proposed, who was planning to completely uproot her life and let everyone else she cared about die, who was on the verge of murdering someone when she caught him, and who since then has deceived her yet again, using her trust in a friend to trick her?

 

The sad thing is that on this show, they're so hazy and warped that it's not immediately clear. It is a very real possibility that Belle would be feeling like maybe she gave up on him too soon and she owes it to him to help heal his charcoal heart. And on this show, they apparently think that killing unrepentant sociopaths or even letting them die as a direct consequence of their own darkness is evil.

[tennisgurl]

So the whole "Queens of Darkness" as the Big Bad`s for this season never really panned out, huh? Instead of three badass villains taking on Storeybrooke, they were more like Rumples backup singers. They all just kind of ran around reenacting cut scenes from Mean Girls, until the Ursula flashback episode. Then she turned good and went away, without adding much to the story, beyond part of Rumples plan. Then there was Mal`s flash back episode, which was more of a Regina flash back episode (because we never have enough of THEM!), now we have the Cruella flash back episode, which ends with her falling off a cliff. That leaves Mal, who is a sleepy dragon, and seems more interested in finding her daughter than anything else at the moment. I guess she`ll get dragged into this whole plotline. Basically, it looks like the Big Bads this season are actually going to be Rumple, and Zelena. Again. 

 

Its like they always wanted to just have Zelena and Rumple as bad guys again, but knew that saying it out loud would be too lame, so they hid them behind these other villains, who didn't end up mattering very much. And its too bad. Ursula and Cruella were my favorites. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Geeni]

JMo is such a terrible actress, her face going ~evil~ at the end was hilarious to watch.

[Mari]

JMo is such a terrible actress, her face going ~evil~ at the end was hilarious to watch.

She might have been overcome with the sheer ridiculousness of what she was supposed to convey.

At least she managed not to roll her eyes, which is more than I'd've managed if told I had to act evil because my character saved her son from a serial killer.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mari

[kili]

I do wonder if Belle was in on Regina's scheme and if so, where she left off and Regina began. Like the bit about wondering if she threw out the chipped teacup too soon. How would Regina know the significance of that? She wasn't at the wedding to hear those vows, so I don't see how that could have been something Regina made Belle say

Regina knows the significance of the chipped tea cup between Rumple and Belle. She had it stolen in "Skin Deep" and used it to force Rumple into admitting that he was no longer under the curse. He was in prison after having beaten up Moe French because he thought that Moe had both stolen the teacup in Storybrooke and driven Belle to commit suicide in the EF. Regina threatened to damage the tea cup (when there was no magic to repair it) unless Gold confessed who he was and who she was. Up until then, he had been pretending to still be cursed despite having his curse broken when he heard Emma's name.

 

So, I think Regina would be capable of that little knife twist on her own while Belle doesn't seem to be the knife twisty type at all.

Edited April 20, 2015 by kili

[kili]

This MAY be the first time that Emma has killed someone.

 

She killed Mal. Stabbed her smack in the heart with a sword. She did it because Rumple said it would save Henry, but it didn't because Rumple was lying (or maybe just telling a half-truth).

 

Kind of ironic. Emma kills Mal to save her child and because of her belief in magic and the lies some guy told her. Snow curses Mal's child to "save" her child and because of her belief in magic and the lies some guy (and Mal) told her. Both thought they were killing/cursing a dragon, though Emma apparently recognized Mal from the movie and Snow had seen Mal transform, so they both probably should have realized they were harming a dragon/human.

 

Like mother, like daughter.

[whyjoshua]

Both thought they were killing/cursing a dragon, though Emma apparently recognized Mal from the movie and Snow had seen Mal transform, so they both probably should have realized they were harming a dragon/human.

Is Mal even a dragon/human? Isn't she just a witch who can turn into a dragon? I ask because this whole plot thread baffles me. Every time Snow and Charming insist they didn't know they were stealing a human baby, I've assumed they're deluding themselves because they have to know, right?

[iMonrey]

 

I find growling german shepherds scary. Also dobermans, pit bulls, great danes, saint bernards, and sometimes collies. Dalmatians? Not so much.

 

Actually, Dalmatians can be very aggressive. There is a reason why we associate the breed with fire stations. Fire stations used aggressive breeds to guard the station while the firemen were out on duty. Dalmatians can be very mean. Not all are, I realize, but the breed is not as gentle as 101 Dalmatians would make them out to be. In fact one of the sad consequences of that movie (both the original animated version and the live action feature) was an increased demand for Dalmatians as pets, a lot of which were later abandoned or returned because they turned out not to make good pets.

 

I still don't get the whole "Turn Emma Dark" plot. I thought what Snow and Charming did to Maleficent's baby made that impossible. If not, what exactly did that ritual accomplish?

[Shanna Marie]

Every time Snow and Charming insist they didn't know they were stealing a human baby, I've assumed they're deluding themselves because they have to know, right?

Well, it was in an egg that Maleficent appeared to have laid in dragon form, considering she laid waste to the countryside to clear room for her nest. That doesn't really suggest a human baby.

 

Regina knows the significance of the chipped tea cup between Rumple and Belle.

She knew it was significant, but what Belle said here seemed meant to echo specifically what she said in their wedding vows about the chipped cup being the most valuable/precious, and Regina would have had no way of knowing about that. Regina knew that the cup mattered to Rumple, but would she have known what it represented to Belle?

[Worsel]

I think the flashback earlier this year, when Rumple invited Cruella and Ursula to Maleficent's castle to take them to Chernabog's lair, was their original meeting. None of the three women seemed to know each other then, and they proved their trustworthiness (to each other) when Cruella and Ursula stayed behind to save Maleficent from the demon. That was probably the beginning of their friendship. That's one thing I think they've really screwed up—from the flashbacks it's clear the Cruella/Ursula/Maleficent were a team for a long time in the Enchanted Forest. They adventured together, Cruella and Ursula stood guard while Maleficent was nesting, etc. Yet in Storybrooke they act like they're barely acquainted, and they turn on each other at a moment's notice. I know they're "villains" (well, Cruella and Maleficent are, at least), but the backstory has emphasized that they're also supposed to be close friends.

 

I'm not sure what you meant by her villainy being hampered by not being able to commit murder. It's not entirely clear what Cruella's job in the Enchanted Forest was, or why Rumple considered her a villain. I like to imagine she was a barfly who, whenever she had enough gin in her, always started talking about that one time she offed her mum.

 

As for how Cruella got to the Forest, I doubt we'll ever find out. (Also, how did she teleport the Author's car to the Land Without Magic?)

<smacks self in head> I completely forgot about them meeting for the first time when Rumple got them together.  I guess that scene/episode was not very memorable to me.  As far as hampered villainy, I thought she could only posture so much before someone else calls her bluff.  But perhaps joining up with the other QoD helped to prevent that - safety in numbers.  

[Zuleikha]

She did it because Rumple said it would save Henry, but it didn't because Rumple was lying (or maybe just telling a half-truth).

Rumple was probably doing a typical thing of everything he said was true but what he didn't say turned his truth into a lie. I guess we can't know for sure, but it's likely the potion would have saved Henry. However, Rumple never had any intention of using the potion on Henry. He wanted the potion to bring magic to Storybrooke.

[Lrdmordain]

I'm calling it now for when they go back and do this retcon later, but Cruella isn't actually dead.

 

She was saved by Dragon Maleficent, who she still had control of and had had lying in wait just below the cliff just in case. The body we saw was her outfit with a simple illusion or glamour of her broken body in it.

[Curio]

The 1920s setting was a nice change of pace (although I swear I kept expecting to see Meyer Lansky and Lucky Luciano walk by any second)

 

This episode would have been 1,000% better if those two and Richard Harrow randomly popped up in the background. (See, Adam & Eddy? Harrow is an example of a person who has killed dozens of people, but still manages to be the most sympathetic character in an otherwise dark show. Take notes.) 

 

I fast forwarded through most of Cruella's story because I just can't bring myself to care about secondary characters anymore. There's just so many. I'm really bored this second half.

 

I actually enjoyed Cruella's story this episode, but only because the actress was great in the role. I totally agree with you about not caring about any of the secondary characters, though. In fact, I don't even care about most of the main characters right now. Out of the two who are still reeling me into this madness, one of them is being called a murderer because she dared to protect her own child from a sociopath, and the other barely gets a minute of screen time per episode now. Needless to say, I'm not a happy camper. 

 

I'm almost done with this show. The characters I like seem to have been either changed or marginalized, so the returns are diminishing.

 

I feel you. Unfortunately, unless they actually kill off Hook or Emma, I'll keep watching this train wreck until it crashes through the station wall. Yes, I'm an addict and watching Youtube clips and gifs just doesn't cut it for me.

 

Even during the worst of this show's episodes, there was usually something that I was looking forward to or somewhat interested in. I realized after tonight that that's not the case anymore. I just don't care. And they've gotten so dark. Outside of Cruella playing Angry Birds, was there even any humor in this episode at all? This used to be a fun show with some interesting underlying themes, but now it's just a mess of nonsensical storylines and zero humor.

 

This. Usually, there's something I can look forward to with this show. Some Hook snark. Captain Swan moments. Rumple being a cunning ass who has a smart plan that isn't tied to a plot that makes no sense. Charming Family Time Bonding. Occasional Storybrooke citizen moments. I feel like I have to watch an entirely different show just to get those things, now.

 

I cringe every time I see Regina and Emma in a scene together.

 

Skipping the six weeks directly after the 4A finale really did a disservice to whatever "friendship" the writers are trying peddle with Emma and Regina. Actually, Breaking Glass already ruined that friendship for me, but I definitely think the audience missed some important scenes from Regina's perspective about why she wants to be Emma's friend after the shots scene. Throughout all of 4A, it was all about Emma trying to force Regina into a friendship Regina wasn't seeking out and Emma proclaiming that she's responsible for Regina's happy ending without much input from Regina. That's a lot of effort from Emma's end and nothing from Regina in 4A. So now that we see those two together all the time in 4B hanging out like buddies, the friendship seems a bit unearned and not very organic to the characters.

 

MOST "good" people, and Emma is supposed to be good, would have shown that they were sorry, disappointed that it had to come to this, regretful, or SOMETHING. Instead, Emma showed nothing. While that doesn't make her an evil person, it could very well be the first step towards becoming evil.

 

I think there's a difference between not showing any emotion and being emotionally drained. I think Emma showed the latter during that final stare. A more "evil" person could easily show no emotion after they take someone's life, casually walk to a grocery store, and buy a Coke as if nothing happened. That's showing no emotion. But Emma's stare seemed more like she couldn't even muster up any emotions because she's just so tired. And quite honestly, if this is the first time Emma has killed a person, it might be realistic for her to shut down her emotions and not feel anything. It's easier to forget about what you just did if you detach yourself emotionally from the event. I don't think that's anywhere near evil, but Adam & Eddy probably disagree with me.

 

I also think the show should have made Emma's magic red for that final push. I know there are no good rules to magic on this show, but the little bit that we've been told is that light magic is inherently good. Also, we've bee shown that Emma's magic comes from a place of love and protectiveness. Emma's magic being light implies that her push of Cruella was out of pure concern for Henry. If it had been red, Regina's typical color, it would show us both that she did the push out of anger (where Regina's been taught to draw from for magic) and that Emma accessed dark magic for the first time.

 

Yet another reason why it's so stupid that we should accept this event as Emma "going dark." We have visual evidence that she did this event out of pure concern and love for Henry. What's "dark" about that?

 

Yeah, I don't know about that. Just remember how Hook's and Zelena's hearts were all red without any dark spots. Continuity clearly doesn't apply to this show anymore.

Zelena's heart (and Zelena's whole arc in general) is a total retcon, but I thought Hook's heart had some dark spots swimming around in there. Which I think is a pretty accurate description of his character at the moment -- he's mostly good, but there's still some dark spots to his character that prevent him from being 100% good.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Curio

[FurryFury]

I wasn't the most attentive viewer during those episodes, but I remember the outcry about Hook's heart - just not sure if it's this scene or an earlier one with Rumple. I think it's the earlier one.

[dr pepper]

Rumple: One of the most powerful wizards ever.

Regina, Zelena, and Malificent: powerful wizards.

 

Cruella: Emotionally stunted sociopath who can control animals and cannot murder. Except dogs and werewolves.

 

One of these things is not like the others.

[Mathius]

I wasn't the most attentive viewer during those episodes, but I remember the outcry about Hook's heart - just not sure if it's this scene or an earlier one with Rumple. I think it's the earlier one.

Which was dumb since we barely saw the heart in that moment and most of it was covered by Rumple's clenched hand. We probably just couldn't see the darkness from that angle.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mathius