S05.E02: The House of Black and White

[Greta]

Given how succession seems to work outside of Dorne, I don't think Cersei has any claim on the Rock. Tommen might, but he's King. Jaime's Kingsguard, and Tyrion's an outlaw. So, I think it does legitimately go to Kevan. 

When it comes to heirs in Westeros (outside of Dorne). a daughter comes after all her brothers, but before her uncle, in the line of succession. So with both her brothers disqualified, Cersei IS Lady of Casterly Rock, at least in the books.

 

SeanC, jinx!

Edited April 20, 2015 by Greta

[Avaleigh]

Given how succession seems to work outside of Dorne, I don't think Cersei has any claim on the Rock. Tommen might, but he's King. Jaime's Kingsguard, and Tyrion's an outlaw. So, I think it does legitimately go to Kevan. 

Not only is Cersei the Lady of Casterly Rock in the books but in this episode we find out that Lord Stokeworth has two female heirs and that Bronn was going to make sure the younger one inherited back when he still thought he'd be marrying her. 

[SeanC]

Not only is Cersei the Lady of Casterly Rock in the books but in this episode we find out that Lord Stokeworth has two female heirs and that Bronn was going to make sure the younger one inherited back when he still thought he'd be marrying her. 

Actually, Lollys said "when mother dies" in this episode, seemingly retconning last season's changing of the ruler of Stokeworth into a man.

[benteen]

Daughters come before brothers though GRRM said something to the effect that uncles can challenge that.  At least strong ones.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Not only is Cersei the Lady of Casterly Rock in the books but in this episode we find out that Lord Stokeworth has two female heirs and that Bronn was going to make sure the younger one inherited back when he still thought he'd be marrying her. 

Just to clarify, I didn't say female heirs were impossible, just that male heirs have preference, but I stand corrected on Cersei vs. Kevan, wrt the books. 

 

As SeanC said, we're not sure on the show, certainly show-Kevan seems to be treating it as his power base, not hers.

[Brn2bwild]

 

I'm surprised that Petyr and Sansa would stop off at such a small inn. Too bad Sansa and Arya both declined having the best sworn shield they could ever hope to have. It's obvious why they both have trust issues but it also couldn't be more plain that Brienne is about as sincere as they come. I laughed out loud at how much taller Gwendolyn Christie is than Aiden Gillen.

 

It's too bad Brienne never got (or thought) to tell Sansa that she saw Arya.  Granted, it would only be to tell her that Arya denied her service, but at least Sansa would know that she was alive.

 

The mention of Volantis is interesting.  IIR, it was originally the destination because Illyrio thought that would be Dany's next conquest.  But maybe they're keeping it because Tyrion is fated to meet up with fAegon after all.

[vesperholly]

Arya was immediately granted entrance into the House of Black and White. I'm not sure why they chose to have her not be granted entrance right away on the show.

To bring back Jaqen H'ghottie? (I approve)

[GreyBunny]

I chuckled how Varys in the last episode extolled the virtues of Dany, meanwhile she's doing a hatchet job of ruling her starter kingdom.  I was hoping Drogon would just torch her and fly off on his merry dragon way.

 

Ellaria sucks; they've character assassinated her into a Mean Girl.  Nice to meet Doran.

 

Shireen is still awesome, so is Kevan. Sassy Sam gave it and gave it GOOD.

 

Barristan is starting to serve as Exposition Guy, I think his days are numbered.

 

I also don't get why they delayed Arya's entrance into the HoB&W, what a waste of time.

 

The mention of Volantis is interesting.  IIR, it was originally the destination because Illyrio thought that would be Dany's next conquest.  But maybe they're keeping it because Tyrion is fated to meet up with fAegon after all.

 

I think he's going to run into Jorah, he's still floating around out there and probably wants to get back into Dany's good graces.

[Skeeter22]

I kind of love that Sansa is openly parading around Westeros with only her darker hair as a disguise while Tyrion has been stuck in a box the entire time, despite being on another continent. I choose to interpret this as Varys really just torturing Tyrion for kicks.

[Boundary]

And Brienne loudly calls out "Lady Sansa" and no one bats an eyelid. I thought there was Lannister gold reward for her whereabouts.

[yellowfred]

I'm really not liking what they've done with Brienne's storyline so far.  From what we've seen, Brienne's mostly just proven herself to be really good at accidentally tripping over the girls she set out to find and then killing their protectors.  I wasn't exactly crazy about her book storyline, but at least I could understand why she'd think that she was doing the smart thing.  She did things like pretending she was looking for her sister and hiding the sword that was really obviously from a Lannister.  Here, it's like she hasn't even thought about it. 

 

I don't necessarily like what we've seen from Dany in Meereen, but I think they've definitely captured the feeling of frustration from the books.  I don't think she necessarily made a mistake; I think she's just backed herself into a corner.  She wants to be a Queen for the whole city, not just the people who put her in power.  That means applying justice evenly to both factions, which, unfortunately, won't help her with either one.  Admittedly, it's a situation of her own making, but there's really not a good way out of it, at this point.

[lion10]

Drogon's gotten so big!  How old are Dany's dragons?  Dany made the right call executing the freeman.  If she's going to run Meereen, she needs to establish that there's one law for both masters and former slaves.

[lucindabelle]

For the first time I really got disgusted with Daenerys. She could easily have made an example out of him withoue heading him.... Flogging, prison... All those people shouting Mhysa and mercy... This is NEWS to the, and this poor guy thought the was doing something noble.

The former slave said aren't idiots they'd have understood if she said because this is the first time I'll now mercy cry, but he next time I won't stop the headsman. She just did the equivalent to her people of locking up her dragons in a dungeon.

She just never sees a long view.

Dragon returning was adorable. The way he climbed down the wall to get closer.

I always love watching Dany. I, often alone in this but it's my favorite plot. Which is why I'm so disappointed in her.

Aryas plot line was even more boring in the books.

[tennisgurl]

A woman is VERY happy to see a man! A woman does not care about staying true to the book, a man has been much missed!

 

Lots of good bits in this episode, although I feel like they are still weirdly padding some things. 

 

I don`t know where they are going with Pod and Brienne. She found both of the girls, both of them told her to take a hike, now what? More road tripping? 

 

A road trip I can get behind? Bronn and Jaime! Yes! I wholeheartedly approve of this change. 

 

Great seeing new locales! I like Dorne, although I`m not crazy about the characterization of Ellaria. I get that the man she loved, the father of her children, was killed, but don't take it out on poor innocent Marcella! Doran can look cool and collected with making Ellaria so angry and blood thirsty. I hate when the show make characters from the books less sympathetic for no good reason. 

 

I loved everything at the Wall! Shireen teaching Gilly to read was adorable! One of those little things the show sometimes adds, that I just adore. And Sam giving and awesome, snarky speech, and Maester Aemon being cool as ever. And they kept the letter from Lyanna Mormont! So glad that stayed in.

 

Dany....kinda sucks at running a city. 

[Maximum Taco]

Daughters come before brothers though GRRM said something to the effect that uncles can challenge that.  At least strong ones.

 

I don't think in those cases they would actually take the lordship. It's more that they just exert their influence and use the rightful Lady as a puppet.

 

An uncle could even try and force his neice to marry his son, or even himself to gain even more power over the Lady and ensure that his progeny would rightfully inherit after the Lady dies.

[InsertWordHere]

Between the hiss and Shireen's reading lesson, today's episode was brought to you by the letter "S."

[placate]

Marcella only had to worry about idiots in the books.  I hope Dorkstar isn't going to show up.  I'm curious how Ellaria is now all vindictive and stuff even though Marcella is betrothed, beloved and is a sweet girl.

 

Doran and Lollys are given adaption attraction.  Neither is fat like their book counterparts.  I think both are too good looking to represent being old and riddled with gout and being slow rape victim.

[Happy Harpy]

Arya! Loved all her scenes. I'm glad she was denied entrance because I smiled whenever she was onscreen on her own.

"It's just a statue", oh you, my dear matter of fact, nihilist you!  Smiling Arya!

Regroup and think in her "happy place" (her kill list, LOL) Arya ! "Fuck [the king, the HoBW, whatever], I'm going to survive" Arya! "Nothing is worthy to a dead man" badass Arya!

Oh damn, I missed you so (I guess it shows).

 

Team Oathkeepers of Westeros was awesome! Brienne got her mojo back, and Jon Snow said piss off the king -hey, he was polite- and is Lord Commander! I cheered for both in front of my screen.

 

Love how soldier-like Brienne is. Excellent with a sword, but so awkward with words. How she needs a purpose, how lost she is without it. Love her directness in expressing things. And if hitting rock bottom means snarking at Pod (who is sweet and well-meaning, but in all honesty sucks at being a squire) for one episode, I take it. She went back to save him instead of following Sansa and didn't reproach him with his lack of skills.

And again, she rocks with a sword, and I don't have any problem imagining she's actually the strongest fighter in Westeros.

 

As for Jon, every week I think I can't love him more, and yet I do. Kudos to Kit Harrington, his facial expressions were perfect. Stannis tries, but too bad, Jon can't be bought. I'm glad that the election went that fast. I agree that the Wildlings thing is going to be a problem re:Olly, his face falling almost made me think he might not vote/be for Jon in the end.

Was that GoT, killing me with cuteness? Yes, it was, with Team Library. Sam ruled, too.

 

Loved Lolly! So delighfully out there. And her face at seeing Jaime...damn, he looked fine. I kind of wondered, considering Bronn's face in response, whether he won't ask to marry her instead of having a better girl and a better castle, in the end.

 

Was Cersei making up that Kevan refused her authority because she was a woman? He didn't deny it. I couldn't totally cheer for him because of this little detail. Imo, Cersei as a ruler and a (sorry excuse for) a human being had it coming and deserved it and more, but I can't agree to her being put down just because she's a woman.

 

Loved the reminder about "not hurting little girls", it was perfect to establish Doran as Oberyn's brother. Love A.Siddig and he didn't disappoint.

 

Mehreen...it isn't bad, and the storyline is full of sense both plot and character-wise, but it wasn't as entrancing as the others for me. Not because of Danaerys: I find her a compelling character because she's trying to do good, and I thought that E.Clarke was good. But because imo the supporting characters aren't that interesting or charismatic enough. I do feel that Jorah left a void here.

Loved the scene with Drogon. I was a much-deserved (imo) soothing moment for Danaerys.

And Tyrion and Jorah were good, but not as fabulous as I imagined either. Tyrion was like Brienne in the season premiere, and although his state of mind is understandable, I hope he finds his Imp mojo back soon because I don't want to see him wallow in self-pity for the whole season.

 

Not happy: where the hell was "the red woman" and co on Arya's list? I need the sweet perspective of Arya killing her to stand Melisandre's presence next time she appears.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Helena Dax]

I kind of love that Sansa is openly parading around Westeros with only her darker hair as a disguise while Tyrion has been stuck in a box the entire time, despite being on another continent. I choose to interpret this as Varys really just torturing Tyrion for kicks.

 

Sansa could cross paths with someone who can recognize her, but to most people, she's just a girl with dark hair. Thousands of girls like her everywhere. Tyrion's situation is different.  Everybody would remember they've seen someone like him. 

 

Loved Doran, especially  when he said  they didn't torture little girls. That makes him better than the 95% of people in Westeros.

 

Dany's frustrating. If she was willing to judge the first guy, why didn't she judge the second guy? Don't they have a legal system?

 

The scenes at the Wall were great, the election of Jon as Pout Commander is one of my favourite parts of the story. And loved that moment between Gilly and Shireen. They were both very cute.

[Boundary]

Dany's frustrating. If she was willing to judge the first guy, why didn't she judge the second guy? Don't they have a legal system?

 

But that's the point, a legal system should be her legacy. She ordered a trial for the first guy, but the second guy's crime was a more direct challenge to her authority, even if intentions weren't hostile. Her rules to enact a legal system should also be enforced, otherwise the whole thing crumbles upon itself.

[Meredith Quill]

Dany's frustrating. If she was willing to judge the first guy, why didn't she judge the second guy? Don't they have a legal system?

 

Mossador didn't need a trial, he'd confessed.

[Winnief]

Was Cersei making up that Kevan refused her authority because she was a woman? He didn't deny it. I couldn't totally cheer for him because of this little detail. Imo, Cersei as a ruler and a (sorry excuse for) a human being had it coming and deserved it and more, but I can't agree to her being put down just because she's a woman.

 

She didn't actually say that Kevan was refusing her authority because she's a woman-she was just smugly saying that a woman couldn't act as Hand of the King. 

 

While misogyny no doubt plays some role in hostility to having Cersei in charge, (it certainly will for the Faith,) I really don't think that was the issue with Kevan who like Tywin fundamentally distrusts Cersei not because of her gender but because she's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is. She's too short-sighted, too emotionally unstable, and the drinking doesn't help.

 

I imagine he's also got a personal stake too, from hearing an earful from Lancel about everything from Robert's death to her behavior at the Blackwater.  Not to mention that another one of Kevan's sons was killed in the war Cersei and Joffrey started.  That could make a guy bitter.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Winnief

[Shanna]

It's too bad Brienne never got (or thought) to tell Sansa that she saw Arya. Granted, it would only be to tell her that Arya denied her service, but at least Sansa would know that she was alive.

I'm glad she didn't tell her in front of littlefinger though. Arya is safer when she is being treated as effectively dead because no one has seen her in so long.

I am going to have to rewatch because I like the idea that Sansa was warning brienne off and if there is going to be no mance and wildings killing boltons I could live with brienne and pod doing it. Not that they could ever be as sneaky as mance in the books.

And Brienne loudly calls out "Lady Sansa" and no one bats an eyelid. I thought there was Lannister gold reward for her whereabouts.

I forgot about that. Could brienne maybe be less obvious and dumb about everything? I swear she needs I listen to pod before she makes any moves. Edited April 20, 2015 by Shanna

[jcin617]

She mentions in the script there is a reference that Sansa shoots Brienne a look with her eyes, kind of a "get the **** out of dodge" message.

I totally thought Sansa gave her an eye;  I honestly think Sansa isn't totally naïve to what's going on.   And I thought Brienne picked up on that, basically Sansa was warning Brienne she'd be dead if she stayed for her.

[Haleth]

I liked it better than last week.  The show is consolidating characters and storylines and I think for the most part they will work.  Ellaria =  Arianne, Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne instead of Arrys, Sansa taking a number of roles of avenging pro Stark characters.  It will improve the pacing of the show.  I don't mind seeing Jaqen periodically but I hope he doesn't replace the Kindly Man.  I agree that Brienne needs more to do than wander aimlessly around Westeros.  And I love that Varys is traveling with Tyrion.

Was Cersei making up that Kevan refused her authority because she was a woman? He didn't deny it. I couldn't totally cheer for him because of this little detail. Imo, Cersei as a ruler and a (sorry excuse for) a human being had it coming and deserved it and more, but I can't agree to her being put down just because she's a woman.

 

It never occured to me before that we have both Cersei and Dany bookended as royally (heh) screwed up rulers, despite the good counsel of their (male) advisors.  We're supposed to hate one but root for the other.  Perhaps it says something about GRRM.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Haleth

[CherryMalotte]

I wonder if a Man knows how many women are pleased to see him?  

 

I'm looking forward to the Jamie and Bronn roadshow.  I can see the possibilities of the Oakheart, but here's hoping that Jamie leaves Myrcella be.  He may love Cersei but he knows she's got a full ride on the crazy sedan.

Edited April 21, 2015 by CherryMalotte

[mac123x]

I liked seeing Drogon again, and boy has he grown, but I didn't like the CGI of his face.  It was too expressive, too anthropomorphic.  I don't really want to be able to read emotions in a flying killing machine.

 

I still feel sure Kevan will have a role to play at court (or they wouldn't have brought the actor back) but was he so belligerent with Cersei in the books? Yes he kept her on the leash and starting running things well (which was his downfall) but he seemed to have a good relationship with her.

 

At the beginning of AFFC their relationship is very strained.  She offers him the position of Hand, and he tells her he'll take it if she makes him Regent also, and gets her butt back to Casterly Rock.  He calls her an unfit ruler and an unfit mother, and wants to get Tommen away from her before she ruins him like she ruined Joffrey.  She tosses a cup of wine in his face.  After her arrest, he's furious with her for sleeping with Lancel, and for being such a general screw-up.  Only after the Walk of Shame does he start being more kind to her, but that's because she's been broken and is facing possible execution.

[ihartcoffee]

Prepare the horses!

We only have one horse.

Sansa is smarter than she gets credit for. She knew she couldn't just leave with Brienne. I wish she could have told her Arya is alive.

[nksarmi]

She has no reason to trust Brienne -- same as Arya, who also turned her down.

But she doesn't ask any valid questions either - she just follows Littlefinger's lead.  I wanted Brie to cut off his head so bad in that scene.

 

Arya typically has good instincts - she tends to know when she should distrust someone.  I don't think she distrusted Brie so much as she saw a chance to go her own way and choose it.  Arya knew get to Jon or get out of Westerious were her best choices and she knew she could do that as well on her own as to go with someone else who might have their own agenda. 

 

Sansa on the other hand could have used a sworn sword who had no other mission but to protect her life.  But Sansa has repeatedly trusted the wrong people and shown herself to be even more of a fool than her own mother.  Ned wanted to get his daughters out of King's Landing when he sensed things were going wrong, but Sansa stamped her foot because she wanted to marry Geoffry because she loved him and he'd make a good king, blah blah blah.  Then she finally gets paired with Tyrion who shows her more respect and care than any other man they could have married her to, but she puts her faith in other people.  And who does she elect to trust?  Littlefinger - the man who set everything in motion and got her father killed.  I realize she doesn't know that, but he oozes slim as far as I'm concerned. 

 

Then Brie shows up  and Sansa doesn't even want to have a private conversation with her?  I mean even if she turns her away - I can't believe she didn't want to ask her questions about her mother.  Sansa remains an idiot as far as I'm concerned. 

[Maximum Taco]

But she doesn't ask any valid questions either - she just follows Littlefinger's lead.  I wanted Brie to cut off his head so bad in that scene.

 

Arya typically has good instincts - she tends to know when she should distrust someone.  I don't think she distrusted Brie so much as she saw a chance to go her own way and choose it.  Arya knew get to Jon or get out of Westerious were her best choices and she knew she could do that as well on her own as to go with someone else who might have their own agenda. 

 

Sansa on the other hand could have used a sworn sword who had no other mission but to protect her life.  But Sansa has repeatedly trusted the wrong people and shown herself to be even more of a fool than her own mother.  Ned wanted to get his daughters out of King's Landing when he sensed things were going wrong, but Sansa stamped her foot because she wanted to marry Geoffry because she loved him and he'd make a good king, blah blah blah.  Then she finally gets paired with Tyrion who shows her more respect and care than any other man they could have married her to, but she puts her faith in other people.  And who does she elect to trust?  Littlefinger - the man who set everything in motion and got her father killed.  I realize she doesn't know that, but he oozes slim as far as I'm concerned. 

 

Then Brie shows up  and Sansa doesn't even want to have a private conversation with her?  I mean even if she turns her away - I can't believe she didn't want to ask her questions about her mother.  Sansa remains an idiot as far as I'm concerned. 

 

I don't think you're giving Sansa nearly enough credit.

 

Littlefinger saved her life and spirited her from the capital, without him she ends up at best in chains and at worst without a head. Also, she doesn't trust him implicitly; she trusts him to do what she thinks he will because she is pretty sure she knows what he wants. At the very least she can trust that Littlefinger doesn't want her dead or back at the capital. If he did he could've killed her long ago or sent her back to Cersei in chains and he hasn't.

 

Brienne on the other hand is someone she doesn't know at all. Sansa saw her kneel before the King, and she carries a sword with a lion headed pommel. It's probably a smart move to avoid trusting someone who proudly flaunts allegiance with your greatest enemies. It's an even smarter move to not let yourself be alone with someone who could be an agent of your enemies. Brienne could have easily been sent to kill Sansa or return her to the capital, which is the outcome Sansa is most trying to avoid.

 

This is a simple case of "better the devil you know then the one you don't." It's the same reason she saved Littlefinger last season instead of trusting the Vale lords.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[OakGoblinFly]

Oh to see the Bolton's suffer!

 

I know Sansa has her fans, but I cannot stand her.  From the moment she was introduced - she has trusted and sided with the wrong people.  I don't want her hurt, but dear lord - I want her to get a clue.

 

 

I think since about the middle of last season through this episode we see that Sansa has most certainly gotten a "clue" -- she's learning from the master shit stirrer/manipulator and she's made a few pointed comments that shows she is being extremely observant.  I thought that Sansa became a more interesting character the moment she plotted to get out of King's Landing.  Her story line was one of my favorites in the later books.

 

I find everything about Dany's story line dull; the source material is pretty thin/horrible and it does't help that I think Clarke has limited range and absolutely no subtly.  I find the people surrounding Dany more interesting than her.

 

Unlike, say, Jon - I do like the people surrounding Jon (I especially like his interactions with Stannis (those were my favorite in the book)), and I like Jon - the whole situation at The Wall is very engaging.

 

We're approaching my favorite Arya chapters (Cat of the Canal is among my favorite chapters in the whole series) and I look forward to her adventures.

 

I'm not sure what I think about the changes to Jamie's story line - that's a pretty big deviation from the book.

 

I wonder where the show runners are going with Tyrion and Varys - I do like having them both on screen at the same time and anything is better than a drunken Tyrion wandering Easteros wondering "where do whores go."

 

Dorne looked lovely - perfect actually.

 

I liked seeing kickass Brienne; nice reminder that she is a formidable warrior, not just a woman playing one.  

 

Still not feeling the season - hopefully these two episodes were setting the table and the rest of the season will get into some major plot.

[tennisgurl]

I think I`m going to go as Dark Sansa for Halloween this year! She looks pretty badass, and its clearly a more brilliant disguise than any mask. 

[OakGoblinFly]

Shireen teaching Gilly?  Unexpected but loved that scene with them and Sam

 

 

I think Gilly is taking on a lot of Val's storyline (which I am fine with) - and the reading lesson was a nice call-back to Shireen's reading lessons with Davos.  It also gave us some background on the grey scale and a peek at the distrust some people have of the Wildings/Free Folk (I think that both will come into play later).

[nksarmi]

I don't think you're giving Sansa nearly enough credit.

 

Littlefinger saved her life and spirited her from the capital, without him she ends up at best in chains and at worst without a head. Also, she doesn't trust him implicitly; she trusts him to do what she thinks he will because she is pretty sure she knows what he wants. At the very least she can trust that Littlefinger doesn't want her dead or back at the capital. If he did he could've killed her long ago or sent her back to Cersei in chains and he hasn't.

 

Brienne on the other hand is someone she doesn't know at all. Sansa saw her kneel before the King, and she carries a sword with a lion headed pommel. It's probably a smart move to avoid trusting someone who proudly flaunts allegiance with your greatest enemies. It's an even smarter move to not let yourself be alone with someone who could be an agent of your enemies. Brienne could have easily been sent to kill Sansa or return her to the capital, which is the outcome Sansa is most trying to avoid.

 

This is a simple case of "better the devil you know then the one you don't." It's the same reason she saved Littlefinger last season instead of trusting the Vale lords.

Sansa would have never been in that kind of danger if Geoffry hadn't been murdered and Littlefinger admits culpability in that (thought I don't recall his involvement in the books).  She watches him murder the fool she had previously saved and then he killed her aunt and she lied to protect him.  She is backing an evil man - not someone she should trust.  Sansa would have been wise to talk Brie by herself for at least a few minutes and then tell her to leave.  If they had done that, they could have told me later than Sansa told Brie to follow but not too closely or something like that.  But what I see is Sansa playing the fool and continuing to trust people she shouldn't while spurning the good characters of the story.  I do not like her character and I doubt I ever will.  I would love for the show to prove me wrong.

[Danny Franks]

Brienne is starting to look like a massive waste of space.

 

'Arya, come with me, I'll protect you.'

'Piss off.'

'Sansa, come with me. I'll protect you.'

'No thanks, I'm fine with Creepy, here.'

 

Find her an actual storyline or get rid of her. Same could be said to GRRM, who wasted lord knows how many pages of her wandering aimlessly around Westeros. If Brienne could protect Sansa from Ramsay, then great. But as it is, I wonder if she'll end up suffering the fate those spear wives were said to have suffered, after breaking Jeyne free in ADWD. Because Ramsay is so super evil and awesome and unbeatable. And unbearably tiresome.

 

I liked finally seeing Dorne, and Alexander Siddig as Doran was pretty great. But sadly, I think much of what made him cool will be lost if he's not revealed to have been playing the long game, all these years. With no Arianne to potentially marry to Viserys, and no Quentyn to potentially marry to Dany, just how is he going to have been plotting to put the Targaryens back on the throne and get vengeance for Elia? That was the key to his character, for me. Oberyn was all flashing temper and bad decisions, Doran was cold patience and controlled fury. That was what made the Dornish storyline so great to read.

 

Jaime really feels like a hero in this story, now. It's amazing how much things have turned around. He still gets manipulated by Cersei, and he doesn't seem to doubt her as much as he did in the books, but hopefully he'll get there. I'm so looking forward to him and Bronn's bromance continuing in Dorne. And even as a straight guy, I have to say that Jaime looked dashing as fuck in that red leather outfit.

 

Loved Jon's scene with Stannis, and that they kept Lyanna Mormont's letter, word for word. Just a little reminder of the love the Northerners bear for the Starks, and of the steadfast loyalty that Jon comments on. I also like that Stannis seems to admire Jon, like he did in the books. The Lord Commander election was rather quick and underwhelming, but in the book it went on for too long anyway, with Sam running around trying to canvas for his friend.

 

I quite like Gilly as a humorous little voice, like she was in this episode. Throwing shade at Sam for being a smarty-pants while she was desperately trying to learn anything new. Shireen is as sweet as ever, too.

 

Good to see Jaqen back, and I guess that adds a bit more interest to Arya's story. Although it's not shaping up particularly well so far. Because it just feels, like Dany's, completely inconsequential to everything that's actually important. Speaking of Dany... actually, I won't bother. Nothing worth talking about there.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Danny Franks

[nksarmi]

I find everything about Dany's story line dull; the source material is pretty thin/horrible and it does't help that I think Clarke has limited range and absolutely no subtly.  I find the people surrounding Dany more interesting than her.

 

 

 

 

I think it's all a to each their own thing, but when it comes to Dany - I loved her until she settled in Mereen.  I find everything about her decision to stay and rule painful.  I also did not like Tyrion's plot once he goes on the run - love HIM, but I am hoping the show's changes to his story keep him engaging unlike the books.  The Wall and North was my favorite stuff in the last two books, but I always found Arya interesting.

[gemmalogical]

Loved Doran, especially  when he said  they didn't torture little girls. That makes him better than the 95% of people in Westeros.

 

 

I wonder if a Man knows how many women are pleased to see him?  

 

I'm looking forward to the Jamie and Bronn roadshow.  I can see the possibilities of the Oakheart, but here's hoping that Jamie leaves Myrcella be.

 

Doran (what wonderful casting!!) may be sane, but Ellaria isn't - nor, I assume, are the Sand Snakes. The threat to Myrcella is very real and I can see a plot to extract her playing out not unlike the Queenmaker plot, with Jaime as Arianne and Bronn as Oakheart. I hope I am wrong.

 

I don't know what is and isn't a spoiler anymore - given the book/show divergence so I'm going to be cautious. Re Lollys:

The actress playing Lollys is listed by the notoriously unreliable IMDB as having a role in episode 10. If that's true, I have no idea what it might mean for Bronn.

 

That said -- this woman was very pleased to see A Man.

[Maximum Taco]

Sansa would have never been in that kind of danger if Geoffry hadn't been murdered and Littlefinger admits culpability in that (thought I don't recall his involvement in the books).  She watches him murder the fool she had previously saved and then he killed her aunt and she lied to protect him.  She is backing an evil man - not someone she should trust.  Sansa would have been wise to talk Brie by herself for at least a few minutes and then tell her to leave.  If they had done that, they could have told me later than Sansa told Brie to follow but not too closely or something like that.  But what I see is Sansa playing the fool and continuing to trust people she shouldn't while spurning the good characters of the story.  I do not like her character and I doubt I ever will.  I would love for the show to prove me wrong.

 

If Littlefinger hadn't engineered Joffrey's murder Sansa would've been in even worse danger where the most powerful man in the realm is a sadist who delights in torturing her and repeatadly threatened to rape her.

 

So now Littlefinger is also the man who killed the monster from her nightmare.

 

In regards to Ser Dontos, yes she saved him, but he was really only helping her because Littlefinger was paying him. It's easy to see how Dontos would turn to the Lannisters and sell her twice once the money ran out.

 

In regards to Lysa, she was trying to kill Sansa, and Littlefinger saved her once again.

 

You're speaking from the point of view of a person who has read/watched everything and knows the people. You need to think of the situation from the point of view of a scared girl just learning to not be scared. Someone who has seen their father murdered, been kept hostage against her will for months, tortured during that time, forced to marry, and had every confidence except for the one with Littlefinger betrayed. She finally gets out of that situation, an escape that is engineered entirely by Littlefinger, and you want her to trust the first person who wanders along with a Lannister blade at their side?

 

How would your scenario go down if Brienne really was an agent for the Lannisters?

 

Brienne: Lady Sansa, may I have a moment

Sansa: Of course. Excuse us Lord Baelish.

 

*Outside*

 

Sansa: So what did you want to talk abou--

<Brienne shoves her sword right through Sansa>

Edited April 20, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[OakGoblinFly]

Sansa would have never been in that kind of danger if Geoffry hadn't been murdered and Littlefinger admits culpability in that (thought I don't recall his involvement in the books).  She watches him murder the fool she had previously saved and then he killed her aunt and she lied to protect him.  She is backing an evil man - not someone she should trust.  Sansa would have been wise to talk Brie by herself for at least a few minutes and then tell her to leave.  If they had done that, they could have told me later than Sansa told Brie to follow but not too closely or something like that.  But what I see is Sansa playing the fool and continuing to trust people she shouldn't while spurning the good characters of the story.  I do not like her character and I doubt I ever will.  I would love for the show to prove me wrong.

 

 

Littlefinger clearly wasn't going to let that happen - it was obvious that he wasn't going to let Brienne get away alive that's why she pushed her way through the knights and fled as quickly as she could.

[proserpina65]

Jon's election took place in the third book, before the battle of the Wall, Pete. And no, it wasn't as rah rah in the books. It had a cool element with Mormont's raven.

 

The election actually took place after the battle of the Wall.  Ser Alliser was still in charge as acting commander when Jon was sent out to kill Mance; that meeting was interrupted when Stannis and his army arrived.  But the rest of your post is correct: it wasn't that rah-rah, although Sam still did speak up like that, and the raven bit was really cool.

[nksarmi]

If Littlefinger hadn't engineered Joffrey's murder Sansa would've been in even worse danger where the most powerful man in the realm is a sadist who delights in torturing her and repeatadly threatened to rape her.

 

So now Littlefinger is also the man who killed the monster from her nightmare.

 

In regards to Ser Dontos, yes she saved him, but he was really only helping her because Littlefinger was paying him. It's easy to see how Dontos would turn to the Lannisters and sell her twice once the money ran out.

 

In regards to Lysa, she was trying to kill Sansa, and Littlefinger saved her once again.

 

You're speaking from the point of view of a person who has read/watched everything and knows the people. You need to think of the situation from the point of view of a scared girl just learning to not be scared. Someone who has seen their father murdered, been kept hostage against her will for months, tortured during that time, forced to marry, and had every confidence except for the one with Littlefinger betrayed. She finally gets out of that situation, an escape that is engineered entirely by Littlefinger, and you want her to trust the first person who wanders along with a Lannister blade at their side?

 

How would your scenario go down if Brienne really was an agent for the Lannisters?

 

Brienne: Lady Sansa, may I have a moment

Sansa: Of course. Excuse us Lord Baelish.

 

*Outside*

 

Sansa: So what did you want to talk abou--

<Brienne shoves her sword right through Sansa>

Littlefinger is remarkably honest for an evil man.  He told Ned not to trust him and he has essentially told Sansa the same thing.  And actually, I disagree that Sansa was in more danger with Geoffry because while I immensely enjoyed watching him die - I do believe that Margeria and his grandfather would have gotten the reins on him or he would have ended up dead in another way.  Plus I believe Sansa has never been safer than when Tyrion was charged with her care and I think he gave her ample reasons to trust him.  He was kind and did not insist on her performing her wifely duties and let her have the space to mourn her mother and brother. That alone should have made her open to him.

 

Littlefinger on the other hand is a murderer and she knows he is using her as a pawn and nothing more - he has told her as much.  She also knows that he will sacrifice her on a dime to win himself more power - he has told her that as well.  And yes I would suggest that when a knight kneels before a young lady and tells her that she would be her sworn sword because she owed her mother her oath that she asks for a bit of privacy and speak with that knight.  Frankly, if Brie wanted to kill Sansa - she could have done it rather than kneel before her.  Sansa can't be so stupid as to not realize that if this woman was going to kill her - she would have.  Sansa asking Littlefinger to give them a moment - something LF would never have allowed - would have shown a sign of intelligence.  I do not believe Sansa is a player nor does she have a clue.  Her mother showed some wit, but was a fool as well. 

 

Frankly, I dislike Sansa even more than I disliked her mother (she might be one of my least favorite characters) , so while I am open to seeing her in a better light - I just don't see what others do.  I hope she will be a rallying point for the North and help put the Starks back in Winterfell, but I am not holding out hope here. About the only way I think I can grow to like Sansa is if she flat out kills Littlefinger with her own hands.

Edited April 20, 2015 by nksarmi

[that one guy]

Dany just basically pulled a Robb Stark with the former slave and adviser she had executed.

 

 

This bugged me a lot. I don't have a problem with changing the book storylines for the show - the books are really convoluted and the show would start to lose focus if they tried to keep all of ADWD on screen. My problem was the plot they chose to go with is exactly the same thing they did with Robb Stark. I watched 23 episodes starting with the beginning of Season 2 the other week when my kid was out of town for spring break - this is EXACTLY the way it played out with Robb and the Karstarks in Season 3, except in fast forward.  Why show us a storyline we've already seen? It felt like a rehash (admittedly most other viewers didn't just watch it a week and a half ago, but still). I thought that guy would go on to found the Brazen Beasts and Dany would get increasingly uncomfortable about having allied herself with a murderous psycho bent on revenge - instead she makes the same choice Robb did. Having her make the opposite choice would have been much more interesting to me, and more in character - a demonstration of precisely how she's different from Robb. Fans could have debated whether she was doing the right thing for weeks. That said, I loved the hissing - but again, escaping the riot protected by guards made her look a lot like Cersei in King's Landing - more retread.

 

I do like that she's trying not to be the Mad King - but the Mad King had a better run of it than Robb Stark did. There has to be a third option.

 

Can she maintain the loyalty of the Unsullied if she appears to side with the slavers? I have always thought that her crusade against slavery had two motivations. First of all she really is opposed to it, but secondly, the loyalty of her army demands it. They fight for her because they are former slaves. If she just ordered them to invade Westeros I'm not so sure Grey Worm and company would have blindly followed, at least as first. She has won their loyalty by ordering them to fight the battles they want to fight anyway.

Brienne: Lady Sansa, may I have a moment

Sansa: Of course. Excuse us Lord Baelish.

*Outside*

Sansa: So what did you want to talk abou--

<Brienne shoves her sword right through Sansa>

 

Exactly. I don't know why she's so clueless, but Brienne doesn't seem to understand that wearing Jamie Lannister's fancy armor and sword makes everyone assume she's Jamie Lannister's creature. She can say she serves Cat all she wants, but that's not a fish or a wolf on her sword hilt. Clueless is too kind a word - she's killed 2 of Renly's Kingsguard, the Hound, and 3 knights of the Vale by my count - all people who should have been on her "side" if she had any social skills (the Stark soldiers had it coming). While she's a sympathetic character, objectively she should be beheaded for six counts of murder. Or at least 5, nobody's shedding any tears over Sandor Clegane. But those other people probably had families and loved ones and were just doing their jobs. She's starting to remind me of Lancelot from Monty Python.

The correct way to protect Sansa is to walk up to the table, get down on one knee and say "I am yours to command, my lady."

[proserpina65]

Marcella only had to worry about idiots in the books.  I hope Dorkstar isn't going to show up.  I'm curious how Ellaria is now all vindictive and stuff even though Marcella is betrothed, beloved and is a sweet girl.

 

Doran and Lollys are given adaption attraction.  Neither is fat like their book counterparts.  I think both are too good looking to represent being old and riddled with gout and being slow rape victim.

I don't remember Doran being fat in the books, but I could be wrong.  One does not, however, have to be old to suffer from gout; my brother's had bouts of it on and off for more than ten years, and he was well under 50 when it started.

 

As for Lollys, I don't think the rape happened on the show, did it?

[Andromeda]

I love how Weiss and Benioff have repurposed characters and actors we already know and often love into spots that GRR had used to introduce still more characters (Is he trying to break a record for largest cast for a high-fantasy novel series?). Jamie heading to Dorne — with Bronn! What a great idea. I don't recall Jamie doing much of anything once he got back to King's Landing one-handed (other than having sex with Cersie). And Bronn was pretty much out of the picture. So nice to have them both heading to Dorne on a mission, instead of random other Kingsguard guy whose name I can't recall.

 

So many great scenes for Brienne and Pod, too. I read this in Variety, and had a laugh. Gwendoline Christie (the actress) had never heard the (very American) expression "get out of Dodge." She thought the village in the show was named Dodge. 

 

There’s a moment in that episode… it was written in the script that Brienne looks into Sansa’s eyes and something in Sansa’s eyes says to her to “get the F out of dodge,” which of course is an expression, but not one I’d heard before. I started assuming that the village they’re in is called Dodge. [Laughs.] I had to do research on the maps of Westeros, looking for Dodge, but no, it’s an expression. I found that out, which is great, because you learn things every day.

 

 

But I might be most excited about Jaqen returning! What a stroke of genius. LOVE IT!! Another woman who loves seeing a man, who is no one....

 

I feel for Dany so hard. Conquering is easy, ruling is hard. She did the right thing, and is trying to do the right thing, but she's learning she can't please everybody, even herself.

 

I pictured Doran as much older, but if he's in the chair for gout (which I think of as an old man's disease) and not age, he can be Alexander Siddig's age. I remember Lollys being dumb, not fat. I hope we see much more of Doran -- I wanted more last night. Love Alexander Siddig.

 

I have a question, though. Is Oberyn's paramour Ellaria taking Arianne's place (the daughter from the books)? Because she's not playing Doran's daughter, but she has her attitude.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Andromeda

[Jamoche]

Couldn't Sansa have had Brienne as her sworn shield in addition to still being with Littlefinger? All she'd have to do is tell Brienne about what she thinks Littlefinger's history with Catelyn was. 

Littlefinger would never put up with the possibility of Sansa having divided loyalties - Brienne would suffer some tragic accident or fall to "friendly fire". It's better that she's the secret backup.

[Maximum Taco]

I love how Weiss and Benioff have repurposed characters and actors we already know and often love into spots that GRR had used to introduce still more characters (Is he trying to break a record for largest cast for a high-fantasy novel series?). Jamie heading to Dorne — with Bronn! What a great idea. I don't recall Jamie doing much of anything once he got back to King's Landing one-handed (other than having sex with Cersie). And Bronn was pretty much out of the picture. So nice to have them both heading to Dorne on a mission, instead of random other Kingsguard guy whose name I can't recall.

 

Jaime doesn't stay in KL in the books either. Cersei gets pissed off at him cause he spurns her offer of being the King's Hand and chooses the Kingsguard over her. Cersei then commands him to lift the Seige at Riverrun and some other Riverlands holdfasts still declaring for Robb and his cause.

 

In the show they seem to have him care a lot more about his children, in the books he very rarely thinks of Joff, Tommen or Myrcella as "his children" and while he is devoted to them because he is a Kingsguard and it is his duty he doesn't have a lot of paternal feelings towards any of them. In the books he's much more preoccupied with feelings of restoring his honour and doing his duty. He wants to serve Tommen because he is the LC of the Kingsguard, he wants to save Sansa because she is his last chance for honour etc.

 

I'm conflicted about that change. It makes him more sympathetic a character, but also a lot less nuanced. For instance I can't see this Jaime doing something like

refusing to show up for Cersei's trial by combat. They'll have to make it impossible for him to receive the message in the show if they still go that route.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Skeeter22]

I don't mind the show expanding Ellaria Sand's role, but it doesn't make sense for her to claim Oberyn was murdered. She was there, she knows Oberyn wanted to fight the Mountain and she knows he only died because he got cocky. There's a reason Ellaria wants peace in the books. Oberyn is an object lesson in the futility of revenge. The show makes her look unreasonable.

[Shanna]

Even if Jaime wasn't much of a father in the books I think he would still want to protect myrcella, because he's a kings guard and protective to began with, because she is his niece too, because she is a sweet girl not awful like Joffrey.

I do not think brienne 'murdered' those men, her actions were in self defense. I do wish she would catch a clue and stop being so open about everything. She should have tried to slip Sansa a note or something. Heavens I'm losing patience with brienne! As for Sansa, I think she's taking the 'any port in a storm' approach to survival which is ok. I am glad that her look at brienne was supposed to be significant. But I am not looking forward to the marriage proposal littlefinger has just accepted!!!

It never occured to me before that we have both Cersei and Dany bookended as royally (heh) screwed up rulers, despite the good counsel of their (male) advisors. We're supposed to hate one but root for the other. Perhaps it says something about GRRM.

I don't think so. They are in different situations with different motives. Dany means well, she is much younger than Cersei, she is just making mistakes. And I'm not sure that she went against her advisors counsel this episode. She was going to have a trial and then execute the guy, until the former slave guy screwed up. She was, yes like rob, between a rock and a hard place. As irritating as the meereen storyline is, I never doubt her intentions.

Cersei is a whole different story.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Shanna

[nodorothyparker]

Book Jaime also at this point in the story has the "luxury" of already being in the know that Cersei has been having sex with Lancel and the TV nonexistent Kettleblacks, and whoever else, so he has absolutely no more illusions where she's concerned.  The show instead seems to be making his freeing Tyrion and thus his indirect role in Tywin's murder the source of their estrangement.  Since they were bringing back Lancel anyway, I'm a little disappointed the show skipped the wonderful Lancel-Jaime conversation where Lancel came clean about it all before Jaime left Kings Landing.  His finally seeing Cersei clearly informs a lot of his decision making going forward.

 

Book Jaime by AFFC does at least briefly consider claiming Myrcella and Tommen but also realizes how problematic that would be with the claim to the throne.  Of course, there it's all part of his larger arc of coming to terms with how badly he's screwed up his life by mostly coasting through it when he thought Cersei would be enough.

 

The parallels between Cersei and Dany hadn't really occurred to me but I see them now that they've been pointed out.  I've been bored with Dany for a long time and remain unconvinced that any part of her being a terrible ruler to her "practice kingdom" is going to in any way make her ever fit to rule Westeros.

[Andromeda]

Jaime doesn't stay in KL in the books either. Cersei gets pissed off at him cause he spurns her offer of being the King's Hand and chooses the Kingsguard over her. Cersei then commands him to lift the Seige at Riverrun and some other Riverlands holdfasts still declaring for Robb and his cause.

Totally forgot about the siege at Riverrun stuff. I find that's true of many of the books 4 & 5 plots in A Song of Ice and Fire -- with no resolution to much of it, I forget it even happened, since it doesn't have a lot of meaning as a half-finished story. I have to refresh my memory as to where characters ended up, for instance.