S04.E14: Unforgiven

[scenicbyway]

It's going to be really, really hard for me to root for Scarlet Beauty. For one, they've both been married. We're not sure if their marriages have been officially voided yet.* It's also born out of two True Love couples not being together any more. It's just so contrived with no setup that I just don't see how this could be any more organic than Outlaw Queen.

 

* You may interpret Rumpbelle as an annulment. I just don't know how the characters feel about it yet.

 

I agree and I guess the reason why Will was brought to OUAT was to be paired with Belle all along.  I can see Belle rebounding this fast, it just seems pointless to me to give a Will a "series regular" status to be the boyfriend of Belle whose barely a "series regular" as it is.  It's not in the budget to give Emma her own place but they can afford to pay someone for an entire year just to be the boyfriend of a character who regularly sleeps through the big confrontation or is left to babysit.  Huh?

[coops]

Yep there is no real reason why they wouldnt just kill Regina. Come to think of it didn't Regina need a lock of hair from each of those with the darkest hearts way back in the second episode in season 1? If all 3 of the queens were around at that time surely she would have needed their hairs too?

My main question that I cant get over is why the hell did Maleficent not turn into a dragon last episode when the demon was about to kill her? She just stood there and waited to die and didnt bother turning into a dragon at all but yet she will transform to kill a couple of guards guarding a bridge but not when in life threatening danger???

Edited March 9, 2015 by coops

[Camera One]

And why were the Queens of Darkness WALKING to the Tree in the first place?  Couldn't Maleficent just poof Snow and Charming over too? 

 

So I was wondering what was the purpose of the chocolate GLAZED donut.  It was so that Regina could wipe the book with her hands and realize it was a different type of paper.  Can the writing be any clunkier?  Regina spent how many hours in 4A flipping through the book?  The light bulb moments are clearly few and far between.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

So I was wondering what was the purpose of the chocolate GLAZED donut.  It was so that Regina could wipe the book with her hands and realize it was a different type of paper.  These people are just brilliant.  Regina spent how many hours in 4A flipping through the book?  The light bulb moments are clearly few and far between.

 

Probably.

 

All I know is that I really wanted one of those after seeing them.  Now I want Timbits.  I miss Timbits.

[Camera One]

I almost bought donuts today because of it, but I resisted.  Henry will be our undoing.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Regina spent how many hours in 4A flipping through the book?

And in the six weeks since then. I guess she didn't care about Pinocchio's story because it wasn't about her, so she flipped past those pages. But then flipping the pages would have shown her they were different.

 

Come to think of it didn't Regina need a lock of hair from each of those with the darkest hearts way back in the second episode in season 1? If all 3 of the queens were around at that time surely she would have needed their hairs too?

Yeah, they could have stopped it by saying, "Nope, sorry." What did happen to all those with darkest hearts, anyway? It's not like things were peachy for them in Storybrooke, so do they feel ripped off by not getting to win, as Regina promised them? Shouldn't she have some kind of League of Villains after her?

 

Unless something more happens in the coming weeks, it seems like the main point of putting Belle with Will was to give Rumple something to freak out about. But really, which would upset Rumple more, seeing Belle kissing some guy Rumple never noticed before, or seeing Belle being good friends with Hook? Even if there's nothing romantic between Belle and Hook, with Rumple's past he's got to be paranoid about it. I'd think there would be a far stronger emotional reaction to just seeing Belle and Hook shelving books together than seeing Belle kiss Will.

[Mari]

 Regina spent how many hours in 4A flipping through the book?  The light bulb moments are clearly few and far between.

Well, to be fair, Regina does have some mental wiring issues.

[iMonrey]

 

My guess is Maleficent lost the baby due to the Dark curse (whether the baby died, or she had to send it away is besides the point.)  It is all technically Regina's fault.

 

Probably - and that would be the same B.S. as when Mary Margaret "killed" Cora - which somehow blackened her heart even though the alternative was to stand there like a dummy and let Cora and Regina kill her, and David, and Emma. Logic is not this show's friend. Self-defense is the same as being evil. Snow and Charming "let" the curse happen instead of working with Maleficent, so it's their fault Mal's baby died. Not Regina's. OK then.

 

 

Personally, I'm going with Pod Henry.  Real Henry disappeared sometime during season 2, and was replaced with Pod Henry, as part of an evil villain superplot.  Real Henry may or may not actually reappear at series end.

 

Maybe he's still possessed by Pan. That would explain a lot, actually. He's really trying to turn her 100% evil again.

 

 

Ursula was a goddess the last time they showed her on the show I'm guessing that has been retconned.

 

In what iteration of The Little Mermaid - or even this show - was Ursula ever a goddess? Ursula (the name being an invention of the animated Disney film) was a sea witch, not a goddess. The idea that her lower body was that of an octopus is also an invention of the Disney film. Clearly her character here is based on that film. Even in the original Hans Christian Anderson tale, the little mermaid gets her legs from the sea witch. I've never heard of her referred to as a goddess.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Were they planning to vacuum the entire cavern?

Now I have an image in my head of Charming and Snow going into the cave with a Dustbuster in their hands and I can't stop giggling like a loon. So thanks for that. Hee hee hee hee heeeeeeeee.

This show has ruined chocolate frosted donuts for me. That's how much I hate the author plot.

[scarynikki12]

In what iteration of The Little Mermaid - or even this show - was Ursula ever a goddess?

 

Ursula was presented as a goddess in the Ariel episode in season 3A, from how Ariel described her to the way she successfully threatened Regina for impersonating her, so it's coming across as a retcon currently.

[Delphi]

Probably - and that would be the same B.S. as when Mary Margaret "killed" Cora - which somehow blackened her heart even though the alternative was to stand there like a dummy and let Cora and Regina kill her, and David, and Emma. Logic is not this show's friend. Self-defense is the same as being evil. Snow and Charming "let" the curse happen instead of working with Maleficent, so it's their fault Mal's baby died. Not Regina's. OK then.

Maybe he's still possessed by Pan. That would explain a lot, actually. He's really trying to turn her 100% evil again.

In what iteration of The Little Mermaid - or even this show - was Ursula ever a goddess? Ursula (the name being an invention of the animated Disney film) was a sea witch, not a goddess. The idea that her lower body was that of an octopus is also an invention of the Disney film. Clearly her character here is based on that film. Even in the original Hans Christian Anderson tale, the little mermaid gets her legs from the sea witch. I've never heard of her referred to as a goddess.

On this show.

In season three, episode Ariel.

The sea goddess Ursula gives mermaids like Ariel legs one day a year.

Regina impersonates the Sea goddess Ursula and promptly gets threatened by the Sea goddess.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Delphi

[legaleagle53]

Probably - and that would be the same B.S. as when Mary Margaret "killed" Cora - which somehow blackened her heart even though the alternative was to stand there like a dummy and let Cora and Regina kill her, and David, and Emma. Logic is not this show's friend. Self-defense is the same as being evil. Snow and Charming "let" the curse happen instead of working with Maleficent, so it's their fault Mal's baby died. Not Regina's. OK then.

 

 

Maybe he's still possessed by Pan. That would explain a lot, actually. He's really trying to turn her 100% evil again.

 

 

In what iteration of The Little Mermaid - or even this show - was Ursula ever a goddess? Ursula (the name being an invention of the animated Disney film) was a sea witch, not a goddess. The idea that her lower body was that of an octopus is also an invention of the Disney film. Clearly her character here is based on that film. Even in the original Hans Christian Anderson tale, the little mermaid gets her legs from the sea witch. I've never heard of her referred to as a goddess.

 

Episode 3x06.  Ariel specifically referred to Ursula as an ancient goddess, which is what gave Regina the idea to impersonate Ursula in order to trick Ariel.  At the end of that episode, the real Ursula appeared and warned Regina never to impersonate her again -- or else!

[coppersin]

 

In what iteration of The Little Mermaid - or even this show - was Ursula ever a goddess? Ursula (the name being an invention of the animated Disney film) was a sea witch, not a goddess. The idea that her lower body was that of an octopus is also an invention of the Disney film. Clearly her character here is based on that film. Even in the original Hans Christian Anderson tale, the little mermaid gets her legs from the sea witch. I've never heard of her referred to as a goddess.

IIRC, in Ariel's episode, she prays to Ursula and Regina pretends to be her, thinking she can get away with it because no one has seen Ursula for so long. The ep ended with the real Ursula appearing in a mirror and warning Regina - and Regina seemed genuinely worried, since a goddess is so powerful.

...All this talk of donuts is making me crave them again...

[legaleagle53]

Now I have an image in my head of Charming and Snow going into the cave with a Dustbuster in their hands and I can't stop giggling like a loon. So thanks for that. Hee hee hee hee heeeeeeeee.

 

Suddenly you've turned into Enchanted Forest Rumpelstiltskin!

[Delphi]

Even not mermaids in this seaside town worship her and throw annual balls in her name.

[AndySmith]

What I'm wondering is why Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula didn't just prevent the Dark Curse by killing Regina.

 

Didn't Regina kick Maleficient's ass in a flashback from the first episode? Ok, maybe not kick her ass, but defintiely won a vicotry over her (as diplomatic as I can say it).

 

As for Ursula, maybe from Ariel's POV, she seems like a goddess due to her power?

[MedievalGirl]

Is is even worth saying again that what bothered Snow about killing Cora was that she tricked Regina into doing it. She says that in an episode. 

I'm not sure why Cruella's Enchanted Forest dress bothers people. It is no more over that top than most of Regina's EF dresses some of which looked like they were take from 80's evening soap operas. No one wears medieval clothes in the Enchanted Forest, except maybe some of the soldiers. There are a few Renaissance outfits but most of it is fantasy conglomeration. 

Who set up the Charmings' tent in the fairyback? LOL I have set up a few historic tents in my time and generally the tents on this show are really well done but not this time. Someone packed the wrong poles. (I know, I know. Of all the things to worry about.)

I really like the idea of Belle and Will Scarlet. If this show is going to deconstruct heroes and villains then taking apart "One true love" is a very good idea. 

I realize the Author story is not appealing to many of you but I've wondered about the meta of how the book, our world and the Realms work since the beginning. It has been presented from Regina's POW but I willing to put up with more of her sob story if we get some bigger answers. 

[YaddaYadda]

As for Ursula, maybe from Ariel's POV, she seems like a goddess due to her power?

 

And according to Regina Ursula (and Cruella) can't magic their way out of a paper bag.  Ursula apparently has only the tentacles which she clearly used to impregnate Maleficent.

 

This is all I got.

[DeLurker]

I almost bought donuts today because of it, but I resisted.  Henry will be our undoing.

That's cause he's evil.

[Actionmage]

Easy enough, they could have stolen the last magical Headbands

 

Since it was the 80s, I am picturing terrycloth sweatbands, like from early aerobics classes. And I grin.

 

What did happen to all those with darkest hearts, anyway? It's not like things were peachy for them in Storybrooke, so do they feel ripped off by not getting to win, as Regina promised them? Shouldn't she have some kind of League of Villains after her?

 

You would think so, but it's better to grouse about the folks from the old kingdom who cramped your villain style instead of getting together to get revenge on the person who's made your life a drearier hell in a mostly non-magical world (see: Bo Peep).  I thought revenge, while not only being a show on the same network, was also a villain's most favorite pastime, so I can only guess it's a case of Regina's The Bestest And Doesn't Really Need To Worry. 

 

Which is sad, for the audience, because we could have seen Regina not only dealing with peasants, but other villains that she very possibly humiliated due to Curse. Keep the Team Princess Adventure and the Red/Charming/Regina relationships (easier to write, never a triangle), but have Regina not only want Snow and Emma back Because Henry's speech, but she needs a bit more than magic to deal with all the Angry Folks coming at her. Which in turn, could be pointed out as Regina maybe starting to want to genuinely want to make things better between herself and the Charmings. But no. Because they'd have to think up villains to put   in opposition to Regina and the Charmings--wait...

[Camera One]

Emma is the most understanding person ever.  Other than the fact that we need to wait a few weeks to see Ursula's backstory with Hook, exactly what would be so shocking that Hook wouldn't want to tell it now?  Especially after his recent 101 Confessions?  Wouldn't MORE information about the potential villains be to the good guys' advantage, rather than Emma being in the dark?  This piecemeal parceling out of information to the audience is so contrived and frustrating.  They dragged an entire episode out, and we still don't know how Snow and Charming could have wronged Maleficent to such an extent.  Unless it's the tired, old "to help a baby, you have to hurt a baby".  If so, that's the Candle all over again.  I'm pretty sure on most shows, the demon spawn is something the good guys will try to prevent, but nope, here, you are morally corrupt if you don't help.  The actress did an awesome face change when she shook the little rattle, but I had to laugh since it was so hokey, almost as bad as Ingrid's "All I want is a family who looooooooooooooooooooves me", but I just need everyone to die first, thanks.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[kili]

So I was wondering what was the purpose of the chocolate GLAZED donut.  It was so that Regina could wipe the book with her hands and realize it was a different type of paper.

 

All I could think of during that scene is that is NOT how one should go about dealing with spilled chocolate glaze on a piece of paper. Why would you wipe it? That only smears it over more of the page. Dab it off! She should have got him a bagel so that she could wipe off the poppy/sesame seeds if that was the only reason for that scene.

 

The walking to the tree made no sense. The killing of the guards when you can fly makes no sense. Heck, can't those useless witches make another bridge? Miss Calamari has already been shown that she can carry the weight of a human in her tentacles....just place everybody over on the other side. And why did she have to lift up Mal when Mal can easily fly?

 

The tree is ridiculous. If you are a few days pregnant it won't work? Whatever. Why don't Mal, Cruella and Ursula just find two other heros to ask the tree? If Snow and Charming are the only two qualified people in the world, then that is a pretty useless tree. If I was the tree, I would have at least rejected them for working with the Queens or even because they were actively trying to deceive the queens.Heck, reject them for wearing gloves. Mysoginistic tree.

 

Since the tree had a problem with embrionic Emma and the door of pure hearts had no problem with fetus Neal (Snowflake), does that mean that Emma is somehow fundamentally different than Neal  or is it just more of This Show, These Writers?

 

If magic people can collect dust spread all around the cavern, what makes Snowing think that they can't hoover it up from the water as well?  How were they planning on finding the dust on their own? It's a cavern. I'm sure there is a lot of dust everywhere. They have absolutely no clue where Hook tasered her.

 

Does Rumple have a cloaking spell? Why is he constantly standing on main street? Why is Charming loading up the truck so that he can take the stuff a hundred feet down the road? Why not just discretely walk to the library carry a rope and a flashlight (if anybody asks, you are just going to the hardware store across from the library for some advice). Unloading and loading the truck a few stores away from each other makes no sense.

 

Was anybody else wondering why Regina didn't snap at Snow during her episode ending monologue? "What are you nattering about? Are you going to tell me a secret or just keep blabbering on and on about nothing? It's cold and raining and you haven't said anything of substance for 5 minutes!".  We kept hearing about a secret all episode and yet we didn't learn any secrets. Because if not working with Mal after she needlessly murdered those men is their big secret, I'm completely underwhelmed and think Mal is more cuckoo bananas in the revenge department than Regina.

Edited March 9, 2015 by kili

[Camera One]

"What are you nattering about? Are you going to tell me a secret or just keep blabbering on and on about nothing? It's cold and raining and you haven't said anything of substance for 5 minutes!"

 

It was such a contrived way to narrate that closing montage showing a bunch of situations which were completely not analogous to Snow's own situation.  A&E probably thought it was really deep or something.  It's very similar to Belle and Rumple's wedding vows superimposed on the other characters.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was such a contrived way to narrate that closing montage showing a bunch of situations which were completely not analogous to Snow's own situation.

It was a cheap trick to keep people guessing until the final seconds on what the secret was. I for one felt very cheated and played. All the hype, and we didn't learn anything about it until the very end of the episode. Even then we had no details. This whole episode was marketing gimmick to give viewers "suspense" and "angst". Almost all setup, almost no substance.

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

It was such a contrived way to narrate that closing montage showing a bunch of situations which were completely not analogous to Snow's own situation.  A&E probably thought it was really deep or something.  It's very similar to Belle and Rumple's wedding vows superimposed on the other characters.

IA.

 

These monologues montages that the show has gotten in habit of doing (as if they are imparting life altering wisdom to the audience and they really are NOT) totally remind me of “Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey”. Does anybody else remember the old “Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey” skit that SNL used to do ages ago? (the Disneyland one is still my favorite) Well, that’s what these monologue montages are, except that while on SNL they were silly and meant to be ridiculous (the sincerity was a purposeful contrast to the ridiculousness of the "message"), on this show it’s like they don’t realize what they said was largely self contradicting or just didn't jibe with what's actually happening, and yet it's said so sincerely, without an ounce of awareness that it's not entirely cogent. In the end, the total effect of the monologue montages is more like this:  "Everything I'm saying doesn't make much sense when put together, but it sounds really nice, and oh,look! Pretty actors! Pay no more attention to my words, dear viewers!"

 

I present: "Deep Thoughts" by This Show (episode 79)—

“Once upon a time, Prince Charming and Snow White went through extraordinary lengths to ensure that their unborn daughter, Emma, would be a force of goodness. They can’t tell her about it though. It might make her go bad.”

Edited March 9, 2015 by FabulousTater

[kili]

I present: "Deep Thoughts" by This Show™ (episode 79)—

 

They should hire Mathey McConaughey to do their end of show monologues in his full Lincoln car commercial mode.

Edited March 9, 2015 by kili

[Souris]

Almost all setup, almost no substance.

 

And there you've described the entire show in a nutshell.

[Camera One]

Did Cruella and Ursula give each other side-eye when they saw Maleficent shaking the baby rattle at the end?  I hated this episode, but there are endless opportunities to laugh at this crap.

[Arkay]

I think the (too long) closing monologue by Snow is actually not disconnected from the montage over which it was shown, but I put that in the speculation thread.

The stupidity of Chekhov's Doughnut, just so Regina would have an excuse to touch the pages about Pinocchio--- so stupid. Really writers, show some effort.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Did Cruella and Ursula give each other side-eye when they saw Maleficent shaking the baby rattle at the end?  I hated this episode, but there are endless opportunities to laugh at this crap.

I wish I remembered where it was, but there was a scene with Ursula doing a heavy eye-roll in the background. It was just so out of place. It cracked me up. This show makes me laugh at unintentional funny moments more than any other.

 

 

The stupidity of Chekhov's Doughnut, just so Regina would have an excuse to touch the pages about Pinocchio--- so stupid. Really writers, show some effort.

How can you not tell the difference between papers without the magic of donuts?!

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

How can you not tell the difference between papers without the magic of donuts?!

 

I was kind of hoping the donuts were magic. Smearing chocolate on the pages revealed secret text - like those pens you swipe over secret messages. We all know chocolate is magic. But now, it was just ordinary, book staining and page sticking chocolate.

[AudienceofOne]

This back half is already such a train wreck it makes the first half look good. I honestly don't know why I'm even watching this show anymore. I got halfway through this episode and I remember how complex and nuanced the characterisation was in season 1 and how they so cleverly juxtapositioned the simplistic tropes of fairy tales with the greyer and more complex "real" world. Now it's just a farce and not a funny one at that.

 

Here's a simple fact the writers need to get through their heads: "good" and "evil" in the "real" world are not about who we are but are about what we do. Regina was "evil" because of the things she did; not because of the Author or fate or because someone stamped "villian" on her forehead at birth. Not only is this entire villain/hero/author thing offensive, it also completely contradicts the entire point of the show. The idea that a child in the womb who has never done ANYTHING, never committed one act in the world that could impact another person, could be rejected by a frigging truth tree for not being a "hero" is so mind-blowingly stupid and downright offensive that I nearly turned the show off then and there.

 

More than that, take Regina's plotline. The entire point of her character was that her tragic experiences when she was young moulded her into the person she was and directly resulted in her actions. She was thwarted, not because she was a villian and the AUTHOR didn't allow it, but because of Rumpie's scheming plan to find his son. Everything she's done has been a natural and organic reaction to her personality, upbringing and experiences and her lack of success was because of other people's natural and organic actions based on their personality, upbringing and experiences. That's what good plotting and characterisation looks like and it directly contradicts not only the idea of the Author but that Emma could be secretly harbouring the well of pre-fated evil.

 

Emma is flawed in very specific ways. She suffered as much if not more than Regina did but she's good, not because she's the Saviour and was FATED TO BE but because she chose to be the Saviour. She took the bad things that happened to her, moved past them and chose to act positively in the world. That was the actual point of her character. To wipe that away with this "possibly predestined for great evil" idea also wipes away the reason we're all watching the show.

 

On top of all of that, we had to deal with the ongoing character assassination of Snow and Charming, which frankly pisses me off, and to top the episode off Belle apparently making out with the Knave - who, as far as we know, is married. To his true love. Where did that come from?

 

And all of these things are based on adding in increasingly convoluted back stories that are starting to contradict each other.

 

EDITED to add how stupid that August plotline was. As far as I could tell, the only "secret" revealed by August editing the book was that the book is a book that can be edited. Which, again, demonstrates for everyone that the Author idea MAKES. NO. DAMN. SENSE.

Edited March 9, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[FabulousTater]

The idea that a child in the womb who has never done ANYTHING, never committed one act in the world that could impact another person, could be rejected by a frigging truth tree for not being a "hero" is so mind-blowingly stupid and downright offensive that I nearly turned the show off then and there.

Word. And really, what a dumbass assumption that it's not Snow and Charming that the tree is rejecting. No, instead it's the potentially evil womb nugget, Emma, whose great crime is existing and not having done anything good while in the womb to prove her goodness.

 

The assumption that it's not Snowing who are unworthy of asking the tree a question is even more preposterous in light of the events that transpired afterwards. Namely, after being rejected by the tree because of Maybe!Evil!FetusEmma, Snowing went off and did some terrible and dark thing to Maleficent. I want a flashback where after doing the terrible thing Snow and Charming look at each other and say "Waaaait, a minute...We just did a bad thing. Maybe the tree was rejecting us after all?!" 

 

Team Not So Charming grabbed hold of the idiot ball and jumped off a cliff with it didn't they?

By all (flashback) accounts they first threw a giant parade in honor of getting custody of the idiot ball. Then they jumped over the cliff with it.

Edited March 10, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

Now that we're parceling out clues to the Author, can we go visit Jefferson again? Because I could deal with this plot for an episode if it got Jefferson on my screen for five minutes. They can show him the picture of the door and ask him which one it is and then Regina can require yet another Season 1 character to relive his personal hell and force him to make another hat.

[dr pepper]

Ok, time to end this show. And since everyone else is too busy trying to drink hot chocolate at Granny's without choking on their secrets, i'll do it.

1. New character, an elderly hermit (with the obligatory hair and beard as thick as a bush) who lives in a ramshackle cabin on the edge of the river, near the T®oll Bridge. He's also bent and scarred and his legs look as if both were once severely broken. He can barely walk and only with the aid of crude crutches. His name is Finn.

2. No one in Storyb®ook questions why they suddenly accept him as a long time resident.

3. Finn hobbles around town offering to help people with various problems. He claims to have travelled widely in his youth, that has given him a lot of valuable experience.

4. He tells a lot of very improbable stories about himself, always the star of some great adventure, full of blood and thunder and cliff hangers.

5. Some of the locals begin to suspect that he's the Author.

6. The audience quickly figures out he's supposed to be Huckleberry Finn.

7. Various crises are averted, thanks to someone belatedly relying on something Finn said.

8. Emma decides that if Finn is the Author, he must have lost his memory. She persuades him to move out of his cabin and into the house they believe is the Author's to see if familiar surroundings will help. It could also help him physically, because he's been weak and coughing a lot lately.

9. During the move, Emma retrieves a newspaper that falls out of Finn's pocket. It's dated a few days before she and August arrived in the real world. It has a story about catastrophic floods threatening the local area.

10. Finn does become a little more lucid, albeit no stronger. Emma decides it's time to confront him with The Book.

11. Is this yours, she demands. He grabs it and declares that it is his and no one's taking it from him.

12. Then he topples over backwards and the book bursts apart. Some of the scattered pages scatter over the hearth. At least one gets close enough to catch on fire, and the whole mass begins to go up like kindling.

13. As Emma tries to drag Finn clear, he screams and tries to rescue The Book. As he grabs for parts of it, it is no longer the single printed and bound volume we've seen all along. Instead, it's a bunch of parts of individual books, and scraps of paper with handwriting on them, all tied together with rags.

14. Emma stares at the pages. The titles are familiar. At the same time, the conflagration reaches the walls of the mansion, which starts to disintegrate around her.

15. Finn sits up, his hair and beard on fire. I'm so sorry, he moans, before collapsing.

16. A group of forest rangers is putting out the remains of a fire. One body, reports a medic, and no one else seems to have been around. The camera pans back and we see, the cabin. It's actually more of a lean-to, built from the remains of a smashed up river raft.

17. A ranger stomps out the last bit of smoking debris. It's part of a book cover. The words Once Upon a Time are still visible.

[AudienceofOne]

In other words, Dr Pepper, they all woke up and it was a very bad dream

[Shanna Marie]

The idea that a child in the womb who has never done ANYTHING, never committed one act in the world that could impact another person, could be rejected by a frigging truth tree for not being a "hero" is so mind-blowingly stupid and downright offensive that I nearly turned the show off then and there.

You know, the more I think about it, the more this may be the most horrifying bit of morality ever seen on this show. Especially when you contrast it to the idea that Regina, who apparently ripped the hearts out of an entire village of people, supposedly deserves a happy ending. But a small collection of cells before Snow even knew she was pregnant supposedly has the capacity for darkness, so REJECTED!

 

And doesn't that contradict Regina's premise? If fetal Emma was rejected by the truth tree but is still on the hero side and is seen by Regina to have a happy ending (I guess because she has a boyfriend, since apparently that's all that really matters in life), how can Regina claim to have been written as a villain, and that's what's keeping her from happiness? I mean, if you can be designated a potential villain within days of conception and still be a hero and still get a happy ending based on your actions, then how is Regina's problem the fault of some book? Do we have warring predestination forces at work here?

[ParadoxLost]

You know, the more I think about it, the more this may be the most horrifying bit of morality ever seen on this show.

 

I know that with Chernabog sniffing out Emma's heart as being the one with the darkest potential we are supposed to take this tree thing at face value, but I can't.  And what I think is really going on is even worse that a tree of wisdom rejecting a fetus for having a capacity for darkness.

 

Snow and Charming couldn't even conceive of the idea that maybe its them not their unborn child that the tree rejected.  That is enough reason for the tree to reject them.  But it didn't occur to them that the all knowing tree might suss out that the Charmings had partnered with three villains hiding around the corner and their methods weren't exactly honest.

 

This is Emma's greatest fear; that her parents sent her away because she wasn't good enough.  Now they are going to have to tell her that she's not completely wrong.  They sent her to safety from the curse, but they did worry that she wouldn't become a hero like them and went to great lengths to avoid that because they didn't believe in her.

[InsertWordHere]

They should hire Mathey McConaughey to do their end of show monologues in his full Lincoln car commercial mode.

McConaughey can do the hero voiceovers. Jim Carrey as McConaughey can do the villain voiceovers. After all, there's a thin line between villain and hero. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

And what I think is really going on is even worse that a tree of wisdom rejecting a fetus for having a capacity for darkness.

Couldn't they have just said the tree only accepted two people, and Emma made it three?

 

I can't imagine fans being very happy with this episode. There's been a lot of negative responses in the social media from what I've seen. No one's too keen on Snowing's dark secret, the Queens of Darkness, or Scarlet Beauty.

Edited March 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

They sent her to safety from the curse, but they did worry that she wouldn't become a hero like them and went to great lengths to avoid that because they didn't believe in her.

 

How can they believe or not believe in her when she hadn't even been born yet?  I doubt Emma would have taken that as an insult, if Snow and Charming told her the entire story, and that they tried to ensure the ideal conditions for goodness.  And then Emma would say, "And look, I'm good.  End of story.  Let's go urn that Maleficent."  To me, that's how these characters would act based on what we know about them.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Camera One

[AudienceofOne]

How can they believe or not believe in her when she hadn't even been born yet?

 

 

Also because, as others have pointed out, the "potential for great good or evil" in-utero basically makes Emma a person. We're supposed to believe that Snow and Charming were so horrified at the thought they may give birth to a normal human being that they did some unforgivable thing to take away their child's agency. Aside from the fact I call bullshit on that, you can't take away the main character's agency and expect people to care about said character. And if getting back her agency makes her "evil" then they're going to care even less. 

[jhlipton]

Why did Cruella and Ursala go on the Roadtrip of Futility? It's not like they were needed. The QoD were trapped together once by Rumple (after not being able to stand each other) and now they're besties? Gag.
 

So I have decided that I just want to listen to Cruella dish on stuff.
"Sheriff Chisel Chin" had me rolling (I see how the blood diamonds thing is in poor taste, but I will admit I laughed).

I doubt that these writers have any clue whose blood produces diamonds. And all diamonds are blood diamonds. DeBeers controls the n umber so tightly so that the price never goes down. Now they're selling "chocolate diamonds" at a mark-up when they're even more common than regular ones. DeBeers is quite possibly the most evil corporation around today, and that's saying something.

[Actionmage]

I noticed in the background of the Geppetto is Awesome scene, that Regina has the word "magister" over the door to her office.  A quick check shows me various titles, but the basic meaning is "teacher" or "master".   If Regina is so gung-ho on her path of redemption, why has she  kept this oh-so-Inspirations reminder of how she was? Especially if she's embarrassed by it in front of Henry.

 

(link: http://screencapped.net/tv/onceuponatime/displayimage.php?album=1561&pid=1749777#top_display_media)

[Camera One]

I was reading an interview with A&E, regarding the latest episode.   Beware the interview, it had spoilers which I did not read.

Here is a quote (no-spoilers)

 

 

 

"Obviously we know the curse was cast, but for us, it's really more about the character motivation," Kitsis said. "We hope that in seeing the second half of the season, you'll go back and look at the series in a different way. Like, at the end of the second episode and you realize Maleficent wasn't just a villain, she was a mother who was trying to protect her kid

 

I don't get what Eddy is trying to say.  Who cares if Maleficent was trying to protect her baby or whatever.  She still murdered three guards for no reason since she could have gotten over the bridge a dozen different ways.  So what was her motivation for choosing the method that involved incineration and needless murder?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I don't get what Eddy is trying to say. Who cares if Maleficent was trying to protect her baby or whatever. She still murdered three guards for no reason since she could have gotten over the bridge a dozen different ways. So what was her motivation for choosing the method that involved incineration and needless murder?

As Miss Marple would say, it's pretty lax thinking when people commit crimes for the sake of their children, and try to justify it by saying, "It was all for Daisy." A&E's relativistic morality reduces the depth of the story in the present, and in retrospect. But they want to have their cake and eat it too. So, what counts for dubious justification for the villains, becomes a dark and shameful secret when it comes to the heroes.

[Serena]

I feel like the writers should have that Brooklyn Nine Nice scene where Jake goes "cool motive, still murder" playing on a loop in their room.

[Rumsy4]

According to them, the only true villains are evil people who are evil with absolutely no motive for their evil other than evilness. That is--not real people.

[YaddaYadda]

This is Emma's greatest fear; that her parents sent her away because she wasn't good enough.  Now they are going to have to tell her that she's not completely wrong.  They sent her to safety from the curse, but they did worry that she wouldn't become a hero like them and went to great lengths to avoid that because they didn't believe in her.

 

This is heart breaking on so many levels.  And not just that, you know.  It's all the self-doubt that she will have when she finds out about this, questioning whether she is the one who made those right choices and not whatever her parents did to ensure her goodness.  For me at this point, it's not even that Snow declined aligning with Maleficent and her friends.  That's fine, Snow lives on hope and water alone and she put her fate in that she and David would win.  Them winning ensures that her child as well as Maleficent's child are actually okay.  So fine, whatever...

 

People keep fucking Emma over.  She's what?  30 years old?  What does that mean?  That she basically has been manipulated her whole life?  

 

Pan wanted the boy who had the heart of the Truest Stupid, so maybe he let Neal out of Neverland so that he and Emma could meet and so that he can knock up Emma.  August did not want to go back to being wood so he decided to find Emma and scared Neal enough that he let Emma take the fall for something she did not do.  Then there's the whole Lily saga and how Emma ended up with Ingrid who while she might have genuinely loved Emma, she still did not do the right thing for her.

 

This is all kinds of fucked up.  If that doesn't make Emma question everything that she is...at the end of the day, it's not even the secret that 's going to send her down that dark path but rather whether or not she had free will at all.  And it's something she has questioned before, when she discovered she had magic. I can only imagine what this mind-fucking will do to her.

 

What I'm hoping is that Emma will dissociate herself from the whole Savior mantra.  Emma works with her father at the station.  Is this the reason we have two sheriffs in town?  I'm not even going to be surprised if Emma decides to leave Storybrooke at the end of the season.

 

I don't see her and her parents, especially her mother working out their problems so easily.

 

 

I doubt that these writers have any clue whose blood produces diamonds. And all diamonds are blood diamonds.

I didn't know what to do with myself over that line.  I get why they used the line but the line probably flew over a lot of heads just because people generally don't care about stuff like this.

Edited March 10, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Why did Cruella and Ursala go on the Roadtrip of Futility? It's not like they were needed. The QoD were trapped together once by Rumple (after not being able to stand each other) and now they're besties?

I kind of like that they're being depicted as actual friends. Cruella may be evil, but she seems to truly care about the others. There was the way she put a comforting arm around Ursula after the encounter with Hook, and her "I've missed her!" about Maleficent sounded genuine. I hope we get some backstory fill-in about how they went from being total strangers to being best friends. And making them all friends does make this contrived Queens of Darkness thing of throwing together three random, unconnected villains seem just a little less random.

 

I see how the blood diamonds thing is in poor taste, but I will admit I laughed

I think maybe it was supposed to be in poor taste, as it was Cruella owning up to her own villainy. This is a woman who (in her real story) wants to make a fur coat out of puppy skins. Of course she'd have blood diamonds and be proud of them.

 

I made the mistake of rewatching, and it's even more annoying than I recalled from the first time. First, it's interesting that after all her snark about what a terrible mayor Snow was during her two-week tenure, Madam Mayor can't be bothered to worry about what two known villains might be doing in town because she has more important things to deal with -- trying to find her own happy ending. Way to think about the civic good, Madam Mayor! And then she can sit in the luxurious office she's never actually been legitimately elected to, with her son who isn't bothered by her past sins, with her former victims rushing to her aid, and talk about needing to petition some higher power to improve her life.

 

The whole anti-fetus tree thing is making me extremely stabby. It would still have been rage-inducing but would have at least had some kind of internal consistency if the tree rejected Snow because her unborn child would be dark. That fits with the current theme that apparently you get "hero" or "villain" stamped on your butt at conception, and them's the breaks, no chance of changing your outcome. But to be rejected because of the potential to go either way in an unborn child at a stage of development when there isn't even a real brain, when the child has done nothing but divide cells? And worse, it's the mother who is rejected because of the potential of the child she's carrying. That's getting dangerously close to the idea that a pregnant woman becomes nothing more than an incubator for her fetus and loses pretty much all rights as a person and all ability to be judged for herself or make decisions for herself. Really, they're showing that a mother can apparently be convicted for the potential future crimes of the fetus she's carrying.

 

Then there's Snow and David's fear that Emma will go dark now if she learns the truth. Emma spent an entire life with no proper guidance or direction, being thrown into terrible circumstances, and she turned out to be a hero. How are they worried that this is what will make her go dark now? That's a total lack of faith in her. And isn't it better to be aware of dark potential? I could see not telling a child because you don't want that awareness to shape a child's self-image, but this is a grown woman who has already gone to prison. I'd think Emma's reaction would be, "Duh." If she's warned about dark potential, that gives her a chance to check herself and be conscious about straying down the wrong path. As though she isn't already.

 

On the up side, whatever casting person discovered Colin O'Donoghue for this show should get a bonus. His face is like a special effect. It may be stupid that Hook is holding back on Emma, but it almost works just because you can practically read the decision process on his face as he's struggling with it. There's at least five pages of internal monologue flickering across his face in the scene where Hook brings Emma a sandwich. You can just about read, "Oh God, she can't know. I can't tell her. But I can't lie to her. Yeah, and holding things back from her has gone so well in the past. But this is different. If she finds out, she probably won't be able to love me anymore. But maybe if I tell her, she'll understand. She knows I was a pirate and did bad things. Wouldn't it be better for her to know, to have it out in the open? But I can't lose her. Maybe I can find a way out of this. Maybe I'll tell her later. I have to think about it. Not now. Not yet." And he was even getting flushed, the more she pushed. I don't think that was makeup because you could see it change during the scene and you could see the capillaries coming to the surface. I guess Colin was getting into the moment. Then he really blushed furiously and turned beet red in the later scene when they realized Snow and David were listening just as they were about to kiss. He looked like a teenager caught by his girlfriend's parents. Bless his heart. I don't think it's possible to consciously control that kind of thing, so he must be very into character.