S04.E14: Unforgiven

[shipperx]

She told him she would wait for him to tell her in his own time which is probably happening whenever we get Ursula's backstory. And she knows absolutely nothing about his past with Peter Pan either.

This show is written for people who aren't spoiled, aren't on social media or message boards. You and I and everyone else who spends time in the spoiler thread or discusses the show had already guessed based on everything that Maleficent may have been pregnant.

As someone who has avoided the boards because I increasingly find board discontent diminishes my viewing pleasure, I had no expectation of a pregnancy. There's been no hint of it within the show and so no reason to consider it. I also didn't think that the show was in any way saying that Snowing was evil. They're heroes. They repeat it constantly. They are the 'good guys'... But that they showed some black and white thinking and that this sort of black and white thinking leads to self righteousness. Snowing meant to ensure good and were unwilling to compromise their beliefs because of it and that this led to Maleficent 'losing' her child (I noticed they used 'lost' not died. Is Aurora going to turn out to be her baby? Or is it going to be Emma's runaway friends back story?). Anyway the 'secret' seemed to be that Emma has the ability to be good or evil (as does everyone). Their inflexible binary thinking had unintended consequences. That's not the same as malevolent intent or that Snowing are bad guys or evil, just that they got self righteous (which happens) and lost some of the nuance because of it.

Better than last week which was dull.

And Aurora is going to factor into this somehow, isn't she.

... And possibly Emma's friend Lily as well.

Edited March 9, 2015 by shipperx

[DeLurker]

 

  Except for Cruella - she is fabulous.  Really should keep Cruella and Ursula around to MST3K the rest of what happens in Storybrooke.

 

I want Cruella and Ursula to host Good Morning Storybrooke.

 

I'm bored with this version of Hook.  He's lost his swagger.

 

The deep dark secret of Snow and Charming has yet to be so SHOCKING!  They might as well have had them jaywalk to save a puppy - G*A*S*P.  Not sure what all the pearl clutching is about.

[malivoire]

IA that the Belle/Will scenes will ultimately not be what they look like.  The fact that Cruella told Rumple that Belle had not asked about him and had "moved on" made me think that it was too deliberately said as if to set a trap.  (Clearly she did ask about him and was teary eyed when she did)   Seems to me that Cruella might have used her "magic" breath to control both Belle and Will and that will be shown later...it's not as if the QOD don't have sufficient reason to take a little revenge on Rumple after what he has pulled on them in the past.  One of them even mentioned in the first episode that please don't tell them that Rumple's motivation was about the girl!  Yup, IMO, the clues are there that it is a set up and will be revealed later, however, no doubt in the meantime Rumple will spend a lot of time revenging himself on Will and possibly Belle as well, and when the Cruella spell is lifted, he will once again be in the dog house.   However, the original "true love" couples will still be the ultimate end game for when the series is over.   We shall see tho.   

[Dani-Ellie]

I also didn't think that the show was in any way saying that Snowing was evil. They're heroes. They repeat it constantly. They are the 'good guys'... But that they showed some black and white thinking and that this sort of black and white thinking leads to self righteousness.

 

Exactly. Showing them making a mistake is not the same thing as saying "no better than evil." I understand the impulse to harken everything back to making the villains look better in comparison but I'm also willing to see how this plays out before I make a judgment. It could be something as simple as Snow taking the guilt with whatever happened with Maleficent on herself like she does with what happened to Daniel when she was just a small part of the equation. I remember when "Snow Falls" aired, everyone wondered what the hell Snow could have done to Regina and then when "The Stable Boy" aired, everyone was all, "Wait, that's it?" There's no reason for me to believe, based on what I saw last night, that this couldn't turn out any differently.

 

And I also feel like I'm the only one who actually appreciated Marco giving Regina August's stuff after she apologized. It doesn't mean he's now aiding her in her quest (because if he were, he'd be searching with them) but it was positive reinforcement for her that if you try to make something better after you've screwed it up, you might get the help you're looking for. If she truly is trying to be good, she needs to see the privileges being good can offer, otherwise why not just be evil?

[shipperx]

And I also feel like I'm the only one who actually appreciated Marco giving Regina August's stuff after she apologized. It doesn't mean he's now aiding her in her quest (because if he were, he'd be searching with them) but it was positive reinforcement

That's how I took it too, and it came on the heels of her saying that she can't revert back to old habits. I took it not as Marco 'forgiving' so much as if you do the 'right' thing (which in this case was to apologize) you might accomplish your goal whereas if you revert to you old evil habits you thwart them. Positive reinforcement: you do good things and good things might happen because of it. Nothing positive came from bullying a child, but admitting you are wrong and apologizing might actually be more constructive.

[Serena]

I loved Marco's speech and I liked that he didn't really "hold a grudge" and gave her August's stuff. But it's kind of easy for him to do so - yes, he was cursed, but at the end he didn't really lose his son, he's getting to see him grow up, etc. I guess what I mean is that if you think about it, the person most responsible for Emma's crappy childhood being forgiven by the second most responsible for her crappy childhood is... iffy, to say the least. I really don't get why Regina can't tell SNOW or EMMA that she's "sorry". Probably because she isn't.

[YaddaYadda]

And I also feel like I'm the only one who actually appreciated Marco giving Regina August's stuff after she apologized.

 

I actually liked that.  He spoke his piece to her, told her the truth of what things are.  She took the time to go to him and apologize when there was nothing in it for her, so I call that progress on Regina's part.

 

That being said, I will forever remember the scene when Marco tore Regina a new one.

[LadyArcadia]

Every time I see or hear "Author" my brain translates it as "Arthur" and I get all confused.

[General Days]

As someone who has avoided the boards because I increasingly find board discontent diminishes my viewing pleasure, I had no expectation of a pregnancy. There's been no hint of it within the show and so no reason to consider it. I also didn't think that the show was in any way saying that Snowing was evil. They're heroes. They repeat it constantly. They are the 'good guys'... But that they showed some black and white thinking and that this sort of black and white thinking leads to self righteousness. Snowing meant to ensure good and were unwilling to compromise their beliefs because of it and that this led to Maleficent 'losing' her child (I noticed they used 'lost' not died. Is Aurora going to turn out to be her baby? Or is it going to be Emma's runaway friends back story?). Anyway the 'secret' seemed to be that Emma has the ability to be good or evil (as does everyone). Their inflexible binary thinking had unintended consequences. That's not the same as malevolent intent or that Snowing are bad guys or evil, just that they got self righteous (which happens) and lost some of the nuance because of it.

 

I love this post and the turn the discussion has taken on this page. The heroes and the villains are, I think, all falling prey to black-and-white thinking.

To me, this episode was full of clues that we are the authors of our own stories. I think if/when an author is found he/she is going to be more of a chronicler. In other words, if there is an author, that author isn't determining the stories, just recording them. It fits in with the whole "Evil isn't born, it's made," and really the sensibility of the series, to date. It's the only way Regina's narrative makes sense to me. She's going to pretend to go dark-side (and certainly be tempted to actually go dark-side) and spend all this time and energy finding the author, only to realize she had the answer all the time -- to have happiness, she needs to live a better life. Her scene with Marco cemented this feeling, for me.

I keep thinking about when August stole the book and added his story. At the time, there was a lot of speculation that he was the author (and maybe he would have been, had the actor not left the series), but even then, he only altered the book to include his own story, so I'm thinking that even if Eion Bailey had stayed, August would have only been recording stories, not creating them (except for his own, of course).

Edited March 9, 2015 by General Days

[Primetimer]

Maleficent returns to Storybrooke, and she is not happy.

Read the story

[DeLurker]

Had to go back to check to make sure, but when Snow went out to check on Neal after her nightmare and David was sitting on the stairs having a drink, he was drinking MacCutcheon Whisky, a LOST brand.  It was the 60 year old version too, so working for the sheriff's office must pay!

[LizaD]

So how did Mal know fetus Emma was going to be the most powerful and evil sorcerer to walk their land when Seer and Most Powerful Dark One Rump didn't even know Emma had magic until she told him in S2 after the Cora adventure?

 

And I'm guessing Ursula and Cruella are too stupid to understand that same statement since they needed Rump to spell it out for them a 2nd time after Chernabog.

 

What about all the other true love babies like Cinderella's and Aurora's or baby Snowflake? Why aren't they worried about them being Damien?

[Spartan Girl]

Boy these characters never learn from their mistakes about keeping secrets, do they?

 

I totally saw Belle/Will coming, but I'd still like to know what the hell happened with Anastasia!

 

The sass was strong with the Evil Queens this episode.  I think we should all start calling Cruella and Ursula Fish Sticks and Pound Puppy from now on.  LOL.

[coppersin]

IA that the Belle/Will scenes will ultimately not be what they look like.  The fact that Cruella told Rumple that Belle had not asked about him and had "moved on" made me think that it was too deliberately said as if to set a trap.  (Clearly she did ask about him and was teary eyed when she did)   Seems to me that Cruella might have used her "magic" breath to control both Belle and Will and that will be shown later...it's not as if the QOD don't have sufficient reason to take a little revenge on Rumple after what he has pulled on them in the past.  One of them even mentioned in the first episode that please don't tell them that Rumple's motivation was about the girl!  Yup, IMO, the clues are there that it is a set up and will be revealed later, however, no doubt in the meantime Rumple will spend a lot of time revenging himself on Will and possibly Belle as well, and when the Cruella spell is lifted, he will once again be in the dog house.   However, the original "true love" couples will still be the ultimate end game for when the series is over.   We shall see tho.   

You're probably right, and it would explain why we haven't been given a timestamp for Will, because if this is before he gets his happy ending with Anastasia, it confirms the Will/Belle thing is short term. But as someone that really enjoyed Will/Ana, I want answers now (and an Ana cameo would be even better).

 

I'm not convinced that every True Love is guaranteed a happy ending, though, and I'm guessing that Rumbelle will be the exception instead of Outlaw Queen. In fact, if the so-called Queens of Darkness didn't seem so watered down and "misunderstood," I'd expect Rumple to learn his lesson (for real, this time!) too late, when one of the three has killed Belle.

[General Days]

So how did Mal know fetus Emma was going to be the most powerful and evil sorcerer to walk their land when Seer and Most Powerful Dark One Rump didn't even know Emma had magic until she told him in S2 after the Cora adventure?

 

 

I don't think Maleficent did know, right? She just knew the child would have great potential and that that potential could be either good or evil. Was sorcery mentioned? Maybe I missed something.

Speaking of me missing things... When Ursula and Cruella went into Gold's shop, Belle said something to them, about them kidnapping her (maybe again). I can't remember what that references. Was there a flashback last week that involved them kidnapping Belle and I'm just blanking on it?

Edited March 9, 2015 by General Days

[scarletregina]

 

What is a 20's era dressed woman doing medieval land? Cruella does not fit.

 

 

 

This exactly. It is taking me out of the story completely. I don't even know if she's a witch or not.

 

I love the actress and I love how her character is written, but she does not belong in this world.

 

It wouldn't have been difficult to give her a medieval costume that resembles her 20s outfit. Then, I could easily buy that the first curse went wrong and she landed in the 20s and with the second curse she landed in present day.

 

As it stands, this inconsistency is making it hard for me to enjoy this season. 

[Rumsy4]

I'm not convinced that every True Love is guaranteed a happy ending, though, and I'm guessing that Rumbelle will be the exception instead of Outlaw Queen.

 

I think so too, and coincidentally, just made a post about this in the Relationships thread.

[General Days]

It wouldn't have been difficult to give her a medieval costume that resembles her 20s outfit. Then, I could easily buy that the first curse went wrong and she landed in the 20s and with the second curse she landed in present day.

 

It makes no sense to me that Cruella is in this story either, because she's not from a magical story. At least with Whale/Dr. Frankenstein, they had a reason for his presence in a magical realm, even though he's not from a magical realm. That said, as far as her costume goes, it doesn't bother me, because different Enchanted Forest kingdoms wear different styles (and have different styles of architecture, for that matter). When Ariel and Snow went to Prince Eric's Ursula ball, weren't all the dresses short? 

Edited to add: what does bother me about Cruella's look is those freaking eyebrows. It's just greasepaint and it looks so fake.

Edited March 9, 2015 by General Days

[Shanna Marie]

And two episodes in and already a continuity error with their base story. Sigh. Maleficent says Emma has the potential for the greatest evil ever. Much greater than Regina. Why then did Rumpel have to tell Cruella and Ursula that? They were standing right there when Maleficent said it.

It depends on whether they actually know who Emma Swan is -- had Rumple explained during the road trip the whole backstory of who all these people are, or do they know that Emma Swan is Snow and Charming's daughter? If they don't know who Emma is, then I guess it makes some sense, though then you have to wonder why there was any significance to Rumple's announcement that Emma Swan was the one to look out for.

 

I've backed off from the show for many reasons, the writing being the main one, but Regina constantly has me scrunching my face in confusion. Henry helps heal her, but I never see much growth. She loves snarking on people but can't handle judgment being thrown at her. The writers give her a love story, but do so by tainting a well-known and beloved fictional couple when they could've given her any single guy in the whole damn world. Her storyline, to me, is such a mess and I can't decide what the hell the writers are thinking with her, and whether they believe they're succeeding.

I think it really is a classic case of Mary Sue writing, where they've lost all objectivity with the character to the point that she no longer makes any sense at all, and no story line built around her makes any sense. What they're showing us and what they're telling us are entirely different things. What they're showing us is a supremely self-centered person who wants what she wants, the way she wants it, and RIGHT NOW, and she doesn't care how this affects anyone else. She feels entitled to a married man who was only available in the first place because she took his wife away from him. She can't take any criticism whatsoever, but constantly criticizes and belittles everyone else. But they're telling us that she's drawn the short stick in life by not getting her happy ending, and she's so totally changed from the horrible person she used to be that she deserves absolutely every good thing in life. And they seem totally unaware of the difference between what they're showing and what they're telling.

 

I want Cruella and Ursula to host Good Morning Storybrooke.

Yes, please! Or more like the Storybrooke version of that last extra hour of the Today show, where it mostly consists of the hosts drinking wine (at 9 in the morning) and being snarky.

 

And I also feel like I'm the only one who actually appreciated Marco giving Regina August's stuff after she apologized. It doesn't mean he's now aiding her in her quest (because if he were, he'd be searching with them) but it was positive reinforcement for her that if you try to make something better after you've screwed it up, you might get the help you're looking for.

I didn't mind that at all. Him withholding it would only be petty. And it's good for Regina to learn that you get better results from being nice to people than by browbeating them. Whether this lesson will stick is another story.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I didn't really care about Marco giving Regina August's stuff one way or the other. I was too busy still cheering from when he was allowed to cut loose on her. And I despise Gepetto for his role in the wardrobe fiasco, so that shows you how desperate I am.

 

Exactly. Showing them making a mistake is not the same thing as saying "no better than evil." I understand the impulse to harken everything back to making the villains look better in comparison but I'm also willing to see how this plays out before I make a judgment. It could be something as simple as Snow taking the guilt with whatever happened with Maleficent on herself like she does with what happened to Daniel when she was just a small part of the equation. I remember when "Snow Falls" aired, everyone wondered what the hell Snow could have done to Regina and then when "The Stable Boy" aired, everyone was all, "Wait, that's it?" There's no reason for me to believe, based on what I saw last night, that this couldn't turn out any differently.Speaking of me missing things...

I don't disagree, but the problem, for me, is that the show believes that Snow was the Evilest Evil EVAR!!!! for revealing the secret, and treats her like it. It acts as if Regina's reign of terror on Snow was totally justified. Just like it treats Snow killing Cora as THE WORST EVER despite the fact that it was totally justifiable self-defense. It acts as if the heroes making mistakes ("mistakes" in the case of Cora) does make them equivalent to the villains. So, I totally agree with you that Mal losing her baby won't really end up being the Charmings' fault at all--if nothing else, the writers don't have the balls to make Snow and Charming real baby/fetus-killers. But the thing is, I don't think that matters, because they'll be treated as if they sacrificed that baby on an altar and drank its blood and fed its remains to pigs regardless.

 

When Ursula and Cruella went into Gold's shop, Belle said something to them, about them kidnapping her (maybe again). I can't remember what that references. Was there a flashback last week that involved them kidnapping Belle and I'm just blanking on it?

It happened in fairyback in 4x11, the December finale.

Edited March 9, 2015 by stealinghome

[kili]

Speaking of me missing things... When Ursula and Cruella went into Gold's shop, Belle said something to them, about them kidnapping her (maybe again). I can't remember what that references. Was there a flashback last week that involved them kidnapping Belle and I'm just blanking on it?

 

Mal, Cruella and Ursula kidnapped her in the 4A finale. They did it to get the guantlet. They used a puppy to lure her away from her laundry and then blackmailed Rumple into giving them the guantlet, which he later went back for and this somehow got Belle to know that Rumple had been lying to her all along.

 

Cruella and Ursula said that Regina ripped out the hearts of the villagers in the Northern or Southern Woods. Does that mean she slaughtered two villages? Because I seem to recall that the first village we saw killed, Regina ordered her knights to slaughter the village and did not do it herself. So did Cruella and Ursula get it wrong or has Regina got more dark spots on her heart?

 

Why is Regina worried about Cruella/Ursula talking about her evil deeds in front of Henry when Henry spends all his days reading about them in the book at her encouragement?  Has she still not read the book? This is the book that convinced him that she was the Evil Queen.

Edited March 9, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

I know this show is written by Lost writers (pun happened, pun stays), but I have to ask.  Does the 238 on the clock has any type of significance?

[coppersin]

It makes no sense to me that Cruella is in this story either, because she's not from a magical story. At least with Whale/Dr. Frankenstein, they had a reason for his presence in a magical realm, even though he's not from a magical realm. That said, as far as her costume goes, it doesn't bother me, because different Enchanted Forest kingdoms wear different styles (and have different styles of architecture, for that matter). When Ariel and Snow went to Prince Eric's Ursula ball, weren't all the dresses short? 

Edited to add: what does bother me about Cruella's look is those freaking eyebrows. It's just greasepaint and it looks so fake.

Disney is re-releasing 101 Dalmations, so ABC probably told Once to include her. And speaking of Whale's realm, I was hoping they would make her black-and-white outfit an homage to her homeland, which also happens to be Whale's. I miss David Anders.

[KAOS Agent]

I know we were supposed to focus on the "evil" secret of Snowing, but I was so completely disgusted by David using Emma's past against her to make her feel bad about calling him on his lying while he was continuing to lie to her. I saw that as the most evil thing from last night. That was truly horrifying to me. Trying to cover for yourself is one thing, using your child's messed up childhood to do so though, that's just cruel. I wouldn't blame Emma if she cuts them off completely after this.

[KingOfHearts]

I know this show is written by Lost writers (pun happened, pun stays), but I have to ask. Does the 238 on the clock has any type of significance?

It's a combination of two Lost numbers. 23 and 8.

[RadioGirl27]

This wasn't a very good episode, but I liked it more than the last one, probably because of the nice Captain Swan moments (they are the main reason why I keep watching) and because of what Marco said to Regina. Cruella is still cool and I liked Maleficent more this time.

 

But everything about Snowing's "super dark secret" and them lying to Emma was stupid and absurd. And the way Regina (and Emma!) were trying to make a child remember his life as an adult was really wrong and creepy.
 

- Henry is just creepy at this point. He needs to get a life outside of his crazy mother. Regal Believer is not cute, it's weird. And what the hell was up with the donuts?

Yeah, he is reaching Norman Bates levels of creepiness.

Edited March 9, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Dani-Ellie]

It acts as if the heroes making mistakes ("mistakes" in the case of Cora) does make them equivalent to the villains.

 

It does but at the same time, this is nothing new. Anyone looking at this show objectively realizes that Snow was a kid and that Regina's anger is misplaced. Anyone looking at it objectively knows that what Snow did to Cora was self-defense. At a certain point, I've had to just ignore the show's villain bias and recognize that the villains' logic is crap and thus the show's logic is crap. And honestly, the only one who keeps harping on Snow telling Cora about Daniel is Regina. More than once, the show has had Snow defending the fact that she was a child when it happened.

 

I certainly have my problems with the writing on this show but the fact that things are being picked apart based upon speculation (educated speculation, granted, but speculation nonetheless) of how the storyline is going to go is frustrating. Maybe the show will treat Snow and Charming as the worst ever for what happened but maybe it won't. I just prefer to see how it plays out before I get upset about it.

[TwistedandBored]

And  the whole "greatest potential for light or the greatest potential for darkness" schtick? It's dumb. Basically, Maleficent told Snow and Charming that their child could be good or that they could be evil...you know, like every single baby born ever! JFC, show. People can be good, evil, and everything in between. It's the choices that they make throughout life that decides if they were good or evil or whatever. So WTF is the big deal about Maleficent's revelation??? She might as well have said "Your baby will be....something. What we don't know. But she has potential to be any of those things. Mwa haha ha!"

 

 

 

This soo much!!! I don't know why that was a surprise to The Charmings? Every child has the potential to be good, evil, or in between. Nothing surprise there. 

[YaddaYadda]

It's a combination of two Lost numbers. 23 and 8.

 

Should have known, I don't even know why I asked.

[Camera One]

So I was just thinking over the title, which I had tried to in the speculation thread.  So indeed, Snow (and Charming) are unforgiven by Maleficent, they are indeed unforgiven by themselves, and from what we can see, they will be unforgiven by Emma when they reveal they have lied to her.  However, Regina gets forgiven by Marco.

 

Now, we have Snow desperately pleading with Regina to help... she's at her mercy again, and she will owe Regina.  

 

Henry finding out that Regina ripped the heart out of every villager (to which he had zero reaction)  was compared to Emma finding out that Snow rejected working with a murderer.

 

Did Maleficent forget that Regina trapped her in the basement for 28 years in Dragon form?  Yet she still feels Snow and Charming have "wronged her most"?  Even though, as Gepetto said, if Regina had not tried to enact the Dark Curse, Maleficent would never have needed to go to Snow and Charming for "help"?  And how about Rumple and how he wronged her?  Bygones to all that, eh?

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[iMonrey]

Has it ever been said when in the timeline the Wonderland timeline happens?

 

Yes. Wonderland took place during the parent show's second season.  Because in the Wonderland pilot, Will was in Storybrooke, and the town was cleaning up in the aftermath of S2 E1. 

 

And what happened to Ana? Belle could have moved on with anyone else in town. Why Will? They need to reveal that at some point to make his presence and relationship with Belle meaningful.

 

Not only that, in the Wonderland finale, Will had been turned into a genie. I would really like to know what's going on with Michael Socha. Not only has he served no purpose on this show but they haven't even bothered to explain how he got here, or why.

 

Also, where the hell is Aurora?  Maleficent is her Big Bad.

 

And where is Pongo? Cruella is his Big Bad.

 

I like that no one knows that Rumple is back in town yet.  How about that?

 

Especially when he's standing on the sidewalk in broad daylight watching people. Jeepers these people are unobservant.

 

I never find it entertaining when people keep secrets, decide to tell the secret, and then back out after hearing the potential secret-hearer say something sappy. It makes me want to rip my hair out. Congratulations, this episode succeeded at a tried and true Days of Our Lives technique.

 

That was especially lame, not to mention predictable.

 

Really, this show has run out of ideas. I know they want to keep it going for six or seven seasons at least, but they started losing steam somewhere around Season 3 and now it's really hurting. They need to come up with an end-game and start working their way towards it, because I'm tired of one villain battle after another.

[YaddaYadda]

But it's this show where everything is taken to the extreme.  The way I justify all of this in my head now is that as heroes, everyone expects more from them than they expect from a villain.  When you are a hero, there is an extra burden on your shoulders and people expect that much more out of you.  Villains don't seem to give a fuck what other villains do to them.  If they did, Regina would never have been on such good terms with Rumple who took her grief and turned it into something ugly.

 

And Emma expects better from them because they are her parents.  The people we love the most are the people who can hurt us the most, so this is how I'm looking at this in regards to Emma.

 

I wish the show would do a much better job with the narrative.  They are clearly heading in the direction of there's no black or white and people behave a certain way in various circumstances.  Some people just take it too far because they are misguided (eye roll).

 

I thought one of the more interesting lines was when Snow said they should have asked for help.  Help for what exactly?

 

My friend wanted to start a drinking game.  Every time someone said hero or villain, you have a shot.  I declined because that idea was just a horrible one.  I don't know if she's shitfaced this morning.

[gik910]

So I have decided that I just want to listen to Cruella dish on stuff.

"Sheriff Chisel Chin" had me rolling (I see how the blood diamonds thing is in poor taste, but I will admit I laughed). I am willing to overlook the fact that she does not belong if she keeps getting to say stuff like this.   

 

I am less taken with Ursula and my biggest issue with Mal is how flawless I know the actress can do campy and how Pam was a thousand more times awesome than Mal.  Also, she roasted those guards with no issues to what? Avoid taking a longer route...I can't say I blame Snow for choosing not to work with the QoD to stop the curse.  

 

I just do not understand why any of these people think not telling Emma the truth is the best possible path- especially after the Frozen storyline.  It is so unbelievably frustrating.  However, Snow and David interrupting Emma/Hook was hysterical.   My guess is Maleficent lost the baby due to the Dark curse (wether the baby died, or she had to send it away is besides the point.)  It is all technically Regina's fault.  The bs about them having to do something in order to make sure Emma was good is ridiculous.  Everyone has potential for both great darkness and great light- everyone. No matter the circumstances of their birth or who their parents are.  

Edited March 9, 2015 by gik910

[KingOfHearts]

 

Really, this show has run out of ideas. I know they want to keep it going for six or seven seasons at least, but they started losing steam somewhere around Season 3 and now it's really hurting. They need to come up with an end-game and start working their way towards it, because I'm tired of one villain battle after another.

Amen. This show needs a major shift to break out of the repetition. I don't think having multiple Big Bads or some hunting for Regina's happy ending is going to do it.

 

This episode was a big improvement for Regina, I'll say. Even when pound puppy and fish sticks snarked about her past, Regina didn't just whitewash it. She said she wanted to forget it, but she acknowledged that it happened. She just seemed deeply troubled by it. Of course then Henry spouts out about how she's not that person any more, and yadda yadda yadda. That kid knows how to ruin good moments.

 

I rewatched the apology scene. It was a little better than I remembered. For some reason during live watches, sometimes the dialog is difficult to hear. I was glad that Regina finally gained some self-awareness and that she wasn't just after August, unlike what she did with her apology to Belle in 3x18. She realized she was out of line and that she can't act that way if she wants to be happy. I'm proud of her for humbling herself. At first I thought Geppetto was being too forgiving because I didn't understand all the dialog, but upon rewatch it seemed that Geppetto really had no need for what he gave her. He wasn't joining the cause, and I appreciate that.

 

Sometimes in this show it's all about how you view it. When you squint and tilt your head, some of it may make a little sense.

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I know we were supposed to focus on the "evil" secret of Snowing, but I was so completely disgusted by David using Emma's past against her to make her feel bad about calling him on his lying while he was continuing to lie to her. I saw that as the most evil thing from last night. That was truly horrifying to me. Trying to cover for yourself is one thing, using your child's messed up childhood to do so though, that's just cruel. I wouldn't blame Emma if she cuts them off completely after this.

Gaslighting Your Child: Not Just For Regina Anymore

[AndySmith]

 

But - at some point one must draw a line where nothing can justify certain types of villainy and the show seems capable of forgiving the worst behavior including murder.  I think that is what many find objectionable about the show's handling of theses issues.

 

Then again, this show is from people who worked on Lost, and that show told us Ben kills dozens of people and is welcome in heaven, while Michale killed 2 people and gets stuck in pergatory...

[LaChavalina]

My favorite part is Cruella (though the makeup person should really go a little thinner on her eyebrows).

It makes no sense to me that Cruella is in this story either, because she's not from a magical story. At least with Whale/Dr. Frankenstein, they had a reason for his presence in a magical realm, even though he's not from a magical realm. That said, as far as her costume goes, it doesn't bother me, because different Enchanted Forest kingdoms wear different styles (and have different styles of architecture, for that matter). When Ariel and Snow went to Prince Eric's Ursula ball, weren't all the dresses short? 

Edited to add: what does bother me about Cruella's look is those freaking eyebrows. It's just greasepaint and it looks so fake.

There were episodes in the first half of this season where I was cringing over the heavy-handed makeup on Elsa/Ingrid and especially the bright pink lipstick on Hook and Charming. I'm glad they've toned that down a bit, but we don't need to ask what the makeup budget is being spent on now...

 

Cruella still doesn't work for me in this, either. Partly because she's not magic, but partly because with three "Queens of Darkness" the storyline comes across awfully like "Rumple Mansplains Evildoing to Some Witches." Surely this could have worked with Rumple, Maleficent, and Ursula as a threesome. At least Mal and Rumple come across as more evenly matched.

 

JFC, Cruella and her blood diamonds line was so very wrong on so very many levels.

 

Also, this. NOT. COOL.

[Rick Kitchen]

 

This exactly. It is taking me out of the story completely. I don't even know if she's a witch or not.

 

Cruella has the ability to control animals.

 

[Mari]

Henry finding out that Regina ripped the heart out of every villager (to which he had zero reaction)  was compared to Emma finding out that Snow rejected working with a murderer.

Now, as a viewer, compare his reaction to finding out about Regina ripping out a village worth of hearts, to his reaction to finding out Emma had lied (to protect him and herself) about Neal being a fireman who died instead of thief who abandoned her to prison.  Then ask yourself if it's the same character or not.

 

Personally, I'm going with Pod Henry.  Real Henry disappeared sometime during season 2, and was replaced with Pod Henry, as part of an evil villain superplot.  Real Henry may or may not actually reappear at series end.

 

There were episodes in the first half of this season where I was cringing over the heavy-handed makeup on Elsa/Ingrid and especially the bright pink lipstick on Hook and Charming. I'm glad they've toned that down a bit, but we don't need to ask what the makeup budget is being spent on now...

 

Oh, gosh, if Having Cruella's eyebrows being over done means we don't have to try and ignore the bright pink lipstick on Hook and David, let them eyebrow to their hearts' content.  They can even use some of next season's make-up budget if it would mean fewer spiders sitting on people's eyelashes, getting ready to have giant spider babies.

[Shanna Marie]

My friend wanted to start a drinking game.  Every time someone said hero or villain, you have a shot.  I declined because that idea was just a horrible one.

That's why I'm thinking about making Bingo cards. I'm just figuring out the logistics. To play online, you'd need lots and lots of cards or else a lot of people would be winners at the same time. A few cards would work for a viewing party, but what about people who watch alone? I've thought about throwing in a few multiple items -- like a kiss would be in several squares on each card, and you have to pick which square to use for each kiss, so there's some guessing as to which choice will get you a Bingo first. And then I'd need to figure out how to make them and where to post it for people to download.

 

You know, nothing much of substance actually happened in this episode, just Mal's return, and we knew that was coming, and it wasn't like there was even any real suspense or tension in trying to stop it. And nothing much happened in the past.

 

I'm calling it now: Regina ends up being the one who tells Emma the secret because she needs to know and it's bad for mothers and daughters to have secrets from each other. And it will be considered a good and heroic act done out of friendship. No one will see the irony in this.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I could watch an hour of nothing but Cruella and Ursula sneering at everyone in town and be happy. They give me life.

 

So...if Snow and Charming's child is a product of True Love and Mal's kid parallels theirs, then Mal's child was a product of True...Hate? So who did she have hate sex with? I assume King Stefan. And if Maleficent gave birth around the same time that Snow did, then she would have been separated from her baby when Regina had her pulled under the library with the curse, regardless of what Snowing did or didn't do to screw her over. Whatever the "secret" is, it can't not be stupid.

[Souris]

Shanna Marie, I actually made a Bingo card based on cast interviews for 4A!

Edited March 9, 2015 by Souris

[FineWashables]

I loved the first season of this show, but now I'm just giving up.  Here's the thing: the reason I was able to buy into this whole show was because the core characters were fully developed people with quirks and flaws.  The realism of the characters balanced off the silliness of a drama about fairytale characters, and it made for compelling TV.  Then they kind of dropped the core group to focus more on the Frozen storyline which I really got bored with -- I know I'm in the minority on that but really, it wasn't nearly as interesting when the show stopped focusing on the main group in favor of these other people.  Now they're back to the original group, which is good, but they're trying to redefine who the members of the core group are as people.  This leaves me absolutely nothing to engage with.  Overwrought doesn't make for credible drama just as convoluted is no substitute for spellbinding.  (See what I did there?)

[Delphi]

If I have to hear the words villain or hero again I'm going to stab something.

I like Mal and am somewhat interested in her story. That end scene with the rattle came with all the feels. But I still can't figure out Ursula out. It's like the writers forgot that they already made her a character.

I like Rumple's stagger back. I want my Rumbelle back, but I want it earned and I don't the writers can pull it off.

I hate all the retconning with the dark curse. It's like ruining season one for me.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I heard this said about Johnny Depp once, but now it applies to this show: Once Upon a Time is ruining Once Upon a Time for me.

[coops]

Im guessing we arent going to get an explantion for how Ursula and Cruella ended up in our world seeing as none of the characters are questioning it. Sometimes its like the writers cant think of a way round a problem so they just ignore it. Regina's comment about Ursula and Cruella not being able to magic their way out of a paperbag made no sense either, Ursula was a goddess the last time they showed her on the show I'm guessing that has been retconned. Still, I really like Cruella but Ursula seems like a nonenity atm and the Maleficent actress is playing her totally differently from how she played her the first time round.

[KingOfHearts]

It's going to be really, really hard for me to root for Scarlet Beauty. For one, they've both been married. We're not sure if their marriages have been officially voided yet.* It's also born out of two True Love couples not being together any more. It's just so contrived with no setup that I just don't see how this could be any more organic than Outlaw Queen.

 

* You may interpret Rumpbelle as an annulment. I just don't know how the characters feel about it yet.

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Isn't dumping Maleficent's ashes the "easy" way out?  Doesn't that act result in another Dark Spot on their hearts?  How the heck did they know it was even possible to resurrect Maleficent, or that her ashes were in a nice little pile, anyway?  Were they planning to vacuum the entire cavern?  

 

Just like the Author plot, it's just impossible to buy the premise of this entire setup, which what makes it even worse.  Snow and Charming might as well have been afraid of telling Emma they ate the last Pop Tart.  Because Emma would have shrugged and maybe even snorted if Snow and Charming revealed they were responsible for Maleficent losing her baby.

 

 

 

Im guessing we arent going to get an explantion for how Ursula and Cruella ended up in our world seeing as none of the characters are questioning it. Sometimes its like the writers cant think of a way round a problem so they just ignore it.

 

I'm sure that "twist" is pending.  The Queens of Darkness (with the exception of Maleficent) will presumably find another way to escape the Curse, and yet they will still ended up in Our World.  If they had been in Storybrooke and crossed the town line, they would presumably have lost all their Enchanted Forest memories.  So there will be an upcoming loophole or retcon.  Easy enough, they could have stolen the last magical Headbands from Rumple just before the Cloud of Doom hit, so they got transported but did not end up in Storybrooke.

 

The characters question nothing unless it's necessary for the plot.  Regina should know full well that no one should be turning their backs on Cruella and Ursula now that they have magical capabilities, but apparently, she is so wrapped up in Operation Mongoose she has lost her brain as well.  

Edited March 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

What I'm wondering is why Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula didn't just prevent the Dark Curse by killing Regina. I can see why Snow didn't do it, since she has that weird soft spot for Regina, and maybe even why she couldn't do it, since Regina has magical powers. But they showed in this episode that Mal doesn't even blink about killing someone, and if she's protecting her child, you'd think that would be a motivation. Regina may or may not be more powerful than Mal (but didn't she only win against Mal by threatening her unicorn?), but surely the three of them could have teamed up and set a trap for her somehow. Why would they even have needed Snow and Charming's help?

[Camera One]

What I'm wondering is why Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula didn't just prevent the Dark Curse by killing Regina.

 

One of the Rules to Live By in the Enchanted forest is, "I shall take the most convoluted, nonsensical, inefficient and ineffective route possible in solving any problem so that the problem doesn't get solved at all."