The DCC Organization: Coaches, Judges and Owner Group

[Kayce]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:51 PM, DanceChick said:

Agreed (duh). I also never saw the appeal of either Kaitlyn (LeGrande & LaRae).

Kaitlin LeGrand I always just meh about so I wasn't terribly upset when she was released. In season 8, they called Kaitlyn LaRae out so many times during TC that I was shocked she made it.  But there were a couple more that season that baffled me..Morgan and Courtni. 

 

On 5/7/2018 at 8:41 PM, ByTor said:

I don't remember the season, but I'll tell you another one who baffled me...Teri.

Season 7 ... and agreed. 

[LaurenBrook]

29 minutes ago, Kayce said:

Kaitlin LeGrand I always just meh about so I wasn't terribly upset when she was released. In season 8, they called Kaitlyn LaRae out so many times during TC that I was shocked she made it.  But there were a couple more that season that baffled me..Morgan and Courtni. 

 

Season 7 ... and agreed. 

Kaitlin LeGrand was apparently an incredible dancer.  Great technique and a fast learner, etc.  I think she kind of flew under the radar because she wasn't as glam as some of the others but she was solid and it's so sad she wasn't able to pull herself together for another year.  

[EricaShadows]

4 hours ago, Kayce said:

Judy was asked to leave the room by Charlotte when Cassie came up for deliberation.  They (Judy and Kelli) also said they were going to remain quiet on deliberation regarding Dayton.  In all fairness, Kelli should at the very least step out or stay out of the deliberation regarding Victoria.  (who btw I don't have any issues with but I haven't really followed her that closely.  I don't know enough about the young lady to criticize).  I really think that Kelli and Judy should stay out of the deliberations regarding the daughters of any former DCC.  Let them get through based on what they can do not who they are.  JMO :) 

Judy, Kelli and perhaps Charlotte SHOULD recuse themselves from judging an individual if they know that person personally prior to auditions.  However, it's unlikely that they will.  While Judy may have stepped out of the room with Cassie, Kelli and Charlotte (and likely a lot of the other judges from what I heard) still knew Cassie personally so most deliberations for her were likely biased (though I don't know about Jay Johnson's last deliberation re: Cassie; he seemed pretty honest about it and was practically dropped from the show afterwards; whether or not his leaving was due to his speaking up against Cassie is up for debate).  As for Dayton and Victoria, most judges likely DON'T know them personally so those judges are likely to be more unbiased towards them and give them honest scores.  We can't say the same for Kelli (and likely Charlotte and Judy) who HAVE known Victoria and Dayton for many years and were more likely involved in their lives in one way or another.

I would say the same thing for ANYONE in the same or similar situations.  You're on a screening committee for a new job and your best friend's, a significant other's or family member's name is on the list?  What if you would be the manager for that position?  You're a high school/college coach for a dance team/cheer leading squad and your son/daughter auditions when you're the main person who decides the roster?  One company I worked for said that, if you're on a screening committee and you know a job candidate personally, you were required to let everyone on the committee know and recuse yourself from not only scoring that person to determine if they got an interview, but actually being involved in the interview itself or the deliberations afterwards.   The company mentioned that, if you didn't, it not only opened the company up for legal issues, but you personally for being a legal target.  That isn't true for dance or cheer squads, but it would certainly have social repercussions and possibly be an issue for the school/studio involved.

My main point with this is that K/J/C should not be involved in the scoring or deliberations for Victoria and Dayton and should not have anything to do with whether or not the girls get into camp.  If those three can over-ride the other judges' votes? This would the time to NOT do so and let the girls stand or fall on the their own.  JMHO.

[Jess14]

I mean, Kelli knows all of the vets too, and she clearly has favorites among them. Should she be recused from deliberating on them also? I absolutely think she should make any conflicts known and if it came down to her being the only one for Victoria, then of course that’s a problem. However, it’s not like they’re deciding on which applicants should receive a scholarship. They’re deciding a dance team, and she’s the coach. Being a family member is one thing, but people with hiring power, know the applicants frequently. 

[go4luca]

28 minutes ago, EricaShadows said:

My main point with this is that K/J/C should not be involved in the scoring or deliberations for Victoria and Dayton and should not have anything to do with whether or not the girls get into camp.  If those three can over-ride the other judges' votes? This would the time to NOT do so and let the girls stand or fall on the their own.  JMHO.

+?

[EricaShadows]

23 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

I mean, Kelli knows all of the vets too, and she clearly has favorites among them. Should she be recused from deliberating on them also? I absolutely think she should make any conflicts known and if it came down to her being the only one for Victoria, then of course that’s a problem. However, it’s not like they’re deciding on which applicants should receive a scholarship. They’re deciding a dance team, and she’s the coach. Being a family member is one thing, but people with hiring power, know the applicants frequently. 

I'm not saying that Kelli should recuse herself from judging the vets, but maybe I should have made myself more clear in my previous post.  Kelli, Judy and Charlotte should recuse themselves from deliberating on people they have a personal relationship with outside the organization.  In most cases, this would exclude the veterans because, while Kelli and Judy get to know the veterans, they don't really DO anything with the girls outside of DCC-related events from what I've heard.  There are likely rare exceptions, but not often, and likely doesn't involve anyone who MIGHT audition for the squad at some point.  To me, it's absolutely a conflict of interest for Kelli to deliberate on Victoria and Dayton because she knows them personally, and likely watched them grow up.  She does not have that connection with any of the other people auditioning (and hasn't for anyone else except Cassie that I'm aware).  Maybe it's my own personal bias, but it also wouldn't be fair for Victoria and Dayton if Kelli, and to a lesser extent Judy and Charlotte depending on how close the connections are, to do anything BUT step back from deliberations on those two because, no matter how good these girls are, there would be the thought that they only got into Training Camp BECAUSE they knew someone on the inside and not because they earned it.  They'd have to endure a lesser version of what Cassie endured because of who they know/are related to.

[ByTor]

Former vet Victoria (who recently had a baby) worked for a dentist who was (maybe still is) a judge.  I'm curious if he had to recuse himself.

[Jess14]

I get what you’re saying, I just think it’s unrealistic to expect that the director, the choreographer, and Charlotte (whatever her title is) are going to completely remove themselves from deliberations for certain people.  Now, i do think they should step back and not overrule everyone else on those 2, but it seems to me that K&J have personal connections to lots of girls. And what does a personal relationship entail? Does it have to be a years long relationship? Does “so and so’s mom was in the Junior League with me” count? Why is favoritism towards a vet ok but not towards Dayton. (If anything, Dayton’s situation is more glaring because he mom works there. Tina Kalina does not). Again, I’m not expecting an answer by any means, this is just the lawyer in me talking.  

I get that Dayton and Victoria shouldn’t get favors, but they also shouldn’t be held to a higher standard than anyone else. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jess14

[Jess14]

19 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Former vet Victoria (who recently had a baby) worked for a dentist who was (maybe still is) a judge.  I'm curious if he had to recuse himself.

I totally forgot about that. I’m curious as well. If he had to recuse, then I think it’s only fair for Kelli to do the same. If not, then no.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jess14

[DancingNurse]

21 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

I get what you’re saying, I just think it’s unrealistic to expect that the director, the choreographer, and Charlotte (whatever her title is) are going to completely remove themselves from deliberations for certain people.  Now, i do think they should step back and not overrule everyone else on those 2, but it seems to me that K&J have personal connections to lots of girls. And what does a personal relationship entail? Does it have to be a years long relationship? Does “so and so’s” mom was in the Junior League with me” count? Why is favoritism towards a vet ok but not towards Dayton. (If anything, Dayton’s situation is more glaring because he mom works there. Tina Kalina does not). Again, I’m not expecting an answer by any means, this is just the lawyer in me talking.  

I get that Dayton and Victoria shouldn’t get favors, but they also shouldn’t be held to a higher standard than anyone else. 

This is why Kitty Carter says she won't be a judge except for show group. Too many girls are her clients.

[ByTor]

55 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

If anything, Dayton’s situation is more glaring because he mom works there. Tina Kalina does not.

I assumed Tina did work for the DCC in some capacity.  Because I forget and can't rewatch, when Tina was on and insulted TCC Chandler's looks, was she on in an official capacity?

[kalibean]

I think Tina was brought in more for fun since she's an alum and is Kelli's best friend.

I can see both sides on the excusing themselves, but honestly short of being blood related, I get why they wouldn't.  It would have been awkward as hell for Judy to hear about her daughter's flaws, though she likely knew them better than anyone.  I'm willing to bet for Dayton and Victoria, J, C & K will let others speak first and then weigh in.  Isn't that kind of what they did for Dayton last year?  And Dayton didn't make it.

I guess I don't see why this has to be a fair process, either.  Many job interviews aren't!  Kitty has a financial stake for her own business, which makes it a clear conflict of interest.  That's an obvious reason to not judge.  But for the rest of the world, it's who you know, who your family/friends know, referrals, etc. to help you stand out over the other candidates.  You've got to perform while you're there, but I can see why even if Victoria and/or Dayton aren't top performers on one specific day, they might be given a shot over others.  If you've got ten girls you're trying to decide between for spots 40-45 in TC, why wouldn't you take your best friend's daughter who you know will take the classes, take coaching well, etc.?

Hopefully both ladies do well and it will be a moot point :)

[DANCER2018]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:17 PM, kalibean said:

I’ve said it a million times and I’ll say it again...the players deserve every penny they get and then some, because I feel they should get the lion’s share of the revenue. There is no sport without them and their bodies and brains are on the line. (It should go without saying that talent shouldn’t trump criminal behavior, btw.  Fix that shit, NFL.) 

That said, this bit from the article gets a big old WTF: “They must stand on the sidelines, in high heels, cheering for the men for very little money in a world where players rake in millions and even the mascots make up to $65,000 a year.”

MASCOTS GET $65K?? From what we’ve learned on this board, the DCC appear to get the best compensation in the league (paid appearances, rehearsal time, performances, etc. and I personally don’t think it’s terrible for a part time job) but I can’t wrap my head around what duties a mascot performs to earn higher pay.

And even “not bad” has room for better. We can always do better. 

Most mascots also function as the "mascot coordinator" or directors for their departments. Those are the mascots making money. Booking appearances, handling invoices/quotes, social media...think everything Kelli and her team do - they do for themselves.

[go4luca]

Shelly posted some cute shots on her live earlier playing with sea turtles.  Apparently she and her husband were there celebrating their anniversary.  So @ShellyB, in case you stop by, Happy 27th Anniversary and hope you don't mind I shared the turtle pics! ?

[Txmomof2]

Might I add - Looking good Shelly!!! 

[Kayce]

8 hours ago, LaurenBrook said:

Kaitlin LeGrand was apparently an incredible dancer.  Great technique and a fast learner, etc.  I think she kind of flew under the radar because she wasn't as glam as some of the others but she was solid and it's so sad she wasn't able to pull herself together for another year.  

That is sad... I certainly agree with that. 

[RazzleberryPie]

6 hours ago, ByTor said:

I assumed Tina did work for the DCC in some capacity.  Because I forget and can't rewatch, when Tina was on and insulted TCC Chandler's looks, was she on in an official capacity?

I think you’re right. Tina has worked with DCC, not full time, but she’s definitely been employed before if she isn’t now.

[sleepyjean]

I could swear one of them said Tina did work for DCC briefly, back in the early days of Kelli's career as director. Or maybe I just made that up. I've no clue.

[ByTor]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:12 PM, RazzleberryPie said:

I think you’re right. Tina has worked with DCC, not full time, but she’s definitely been employed before if she isn’t now.

 

On 5/10/2018 at 12:09 AM, sleepyjean said:

I could swear one of them said Tina did work for DCC briefly, back in the early days of Kelli's career as director. Or maybe I just made that up. I've no clue.

I don't know how reliable this is....

 

[ByTor]

This is interesting especially:

Quote

Typically they range in age from 18 to 36, although there is no upper age limit.

Was there seriously a 36 year old who made it?

[sleepyjean]

48 minutes ago, ByTor said:

This is interesting especially:

Was there seriously a 36 year old who made it?

ONE. Linda Badami in the 90s.

[ByTor]

1 minute ago, sleepyjean said:

ONE. Linda Badami in the 90s.

LOL so I guess it's a little deceiving to call ages up to 36 "typical" :)

[dreamcatcher]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:11 PM, EricaShadows said:

Judy, Kelli and perhaps Charlotte SHOULD recuse themselves from judging an individual if they know that person personally prior to auditions.  However, it's unlikely that they will.  While Judy may have stepped out of the room with Cassie, Kelli and Charlotte (and likely a lot of the other judges from what I heard) still knew Cassie personally so most deliberations for her were likely biased (though I don't know about Jay Johnson's last deliberation re: Cassie; he seemed pretty honest about it and was practically dropped from the show afterwards; whether or not his leaving was due to his speaking up against Cassie is up for debate).  As for Dayton and Victoria, most judges likely DON'T know them personally so those judges are likely to be more unbiased towards them and give them honest scores.  We can't say the same for Kelli (and likely Charlotte and Judy) who HAVE known Victoria and Dayton for many years and were more likely involved in their lives in one way or another.

I would say the same thing for ANYONE in the same or similar situations.  You're on a screening committee for a new job and your best friend's, a significant other's or family member's name is on the list?  What if you would be the manager for that position?  You're a high school/college coach for a dance team/cheer leading squad and your son/daughter auditions when you're the main person who decides the roster?  One company I worked for said that, if you're on a screening committee and you know a job candidate personally, you were required to let everyone on the committee know and recuse yourself from not only scoring that person to determine if they got an interview, but actually being involved in the interview itself or the deliberations afterwards.   The company mentioned that, if you didn't, it not only opened the company up for legal issues, but you personally for being a legal target.  That isn't true for dance or cheer squads, but it would certainly have social repercussions and possibly be an issue for the school/studio involved.

My main point with this is that K/J/C should not be involved in the scoring or deliberations for Victoria and Dayton and should not have anything to do with whether or not the girls get into camp.  If those three can over-ride the other judges' votes? This would the time to NOT do so and let the girls stand or fall on the their own.  JMHO.

I agree with your point, but at the same time it just doesn't matter. Even if all three of them leave the room and all the judges just roast those two girls... k/j/c would still get them to TC. The judges are there mostly for show; if kelli and charlotte want someone on the team, they will be on the team.

[bigskygirl]

Looks like Judy and Kelli are on their way home from the calendar shoot. The plane makes me nervous. *lol*

[MrsEVH]

DCC Judy in 1984 USO tour

[go4luca]

I can't find the post where someone shared about the series "All or Nothing - the Dallas Cowboys" but wanted to say a big thank you. 

Although I've never been a football fan (please don't hate me), my Mother was a huge Cowboys fan.  I've now watched the first three episodes and it really is giving me much more insight into what this organization is about.  I'm honestly surprised at how much I'm enjoying the series.  I had no idea about all the spokes in the wheel involved and I'm finding it fascinating. 

To the OP, thanks again.

[doglover0814]

A cool feature on Kelli. Also interesting which ex-cheerleaders or TCC’s are shown in the clips in the video  

Edited July 3, 2018 by doglover0814
Typo

[Taralightner]

On 5/9/2018 at 1:41 PM, Jess14 said:

I mean, Kelli knows all of the vets too, and she clearly has favorites among them. Should she be recused from deliberating on them also? I absolutely think she should make any conflicts known and if it came down to her being the only one for Victoria, then of course that’s a problem. However, it’s not like they’re deciding on which applicants should receive a scholarship. They’re deciding a dance team, and she’s the coach. Being a family member is one thing, but people with hiring power, know the applicants frequently. 

Thank you

[bigskygirl]

Interesting story about why Judy tried out for the team. She chickened out the first time and did not show up, and she tried out with her sister-in-law.

http://www.cmt.com/news/1797565/judy-trammells-accidental-journey-to-the-dallas-cowboys-cheerleaders/

[Tulip86]

7 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

Interesting story about why Judy tried out for the team. She chickened out the first time and did not show up, and she tried out with her sister-in-law.

http://www.cmt.com/news/1797565/judy-trammells-accidental-journey-to-the-dallas-cowboys-cheerleaders/

Oww can't open these kinds of links... CMT will send everyone not from the US straight to their YouTube channel. That's why I can't watch episodes there anymore either.

[go4luca]

@ShellyB, maybe a silly question, but I've always wondered.   

What happens to all the workout uniforms and shoes given to the Finalists when that day of auditions is done?  I'm assuming all the workout uniforms are turned in for cleaning and kept for re-use?  Is it the same with the shoes or are the girls auditioning allowed to keep them?  Or are they donated or ???

[5678Pixie]

The girls that make finals get to keep everything.

[go4luca]

1 minute ago, 5678Pixie said:

The girls that make finals get to keep everything.

Ah, didn't know.  Thanks for the reply.

[ShellyB]

23 hours ago, go4luca said:

@ShellyB, maybe a silly question, but I've always wondered.   

What happens to all the workout uniforms and shoes given to the Finalists when that day of auditions is done?  I'm assuming all the workout uniforms are turned in for cleaning and kept for re-use?  Is it the same with the shoes or are the girls auditioning allowed to keep them?  Or are they donated or ???

They are only provided top and shorts, which they get to keep. If they make it to training camp, the finals outfit becomes part of their rehearsal attire. 

[go4luca]

56 minutes ago, ShellyB said:

They are only provided top and shorts, which they get to keep. If they make it to training camp, the finals outfit becomes part of their rehearsal attire. 

Thank you, @ShellyB.  It's one of those odd ball things I've always wondered.  Another DCC mystery solved. :)

[MrsEVH]

That's why sometimes you see girls wearing that outfit to other teams auditions.

[Piet]

The proof is overwhelming: cheerleaders dont get paid well. A little search on the internet gave food for the idea. I had some suspicion when I saw these girls act so humble. It must be a big honour to become a DCC. But their wage is below minimum.

How do these girls become so foolish?  I respect their hard work. Is there no union who fights for a decent income?

Maybe it is because I'm European but  if I was goodlooking, athletic and supple I would refuse to work for the Dallas Cowboys . It's a disgrace how they treat their cheerleaders. Are you happy as Dallas Cowboys fans? If American Football was some kind of charity.....but it's big business.

[5678Pixie]

[sleepyjean]

Well...those pants are...um...very unique.

[PBSLover]

Personally I think women that wear skirts right below the knee, as well as well fitting dresses, suits and pants are just classier than short skirts (think Meghan Markle in Suits). I think Kelli looks best when she is casual because her clothes look like they actually fit her. The dresses she wears are just too tight and some are old ladyish (belted with a peplum, come to mind). Charlotte has odd taste in clothes. She looks best in pants rather than skirts and dresses, which are usually too short. Judy always looks great to me. It’s Charlotte and Kelli that are fashion challenged. 

I actually don’t mind those pants Charlotte has on above. They are better than most of the clothes we have seen her in. I would also love to see Charlotte made up by an A-list make-up artist. She does her own make-up and I don’t think she brings out the best features of her face. 

For all their flaws, I still have a ton of respect for the three of them.

[kalibean]

I think Charlotte is just so striking, and her eyes are next level gorgeous. I don’t always get her fashion choices, though, pants above very much included. 

Judy is #goals in all ways, from hair to wardrobe. But that’s also very much my sense of style! 

[LaurenBrook]

1 hour ago, kalibean said:

I think Charlotte is just so striking, and her eyes are next level gorgeous. I don’t always get her fashion choices, though, pants above very much included. 

Judy is #goals in all ways, from hair to wardrobe. But that’s also very much my sense of style! 

So agree - J, K and C are all gorgeous. 

[LadyMsJay]

16 hours ago, sleepyjean said:

Well...those pants are...um...very unique.

Awful. Awful is the word you were looking for. They're really stupid smh lol

16 hours ago, PBSLover said:

Personally I think women that wear skirts right below the knee, as well as well fitting dresses, suits and pants are just classier than short skirts (think Meghan Markle in Suits). I think Kelli looks best when she is casual because her clothes look like they actually fit her. The dresses she wears are just too tight and some are old ladyish (belted with a peplum, come to mind). Charlotte has odd taste in clothes. She looks best in pants rather than skirts and dresses, which are usually too short. Judy always looks great to me. It’s Charlotte and Kelli that are fashion challenged. 

I actually don’t mind those pants Charlotte has on above. They are better than most of the clothes we have seen her in. I would also love to see Charlotte made up by an A-list make-up artist. She does her own make-up and I don’t think she brings out the best features of her face. 

For all their flaws, I still have a ton of respect for the three of them.

she really does. I'm not sure if it's because she tries to dress "younger" than she is or what..

[Kayce]

On 8/18/2018 at 9:20 PM, sleepyjean said:

Well...those pants are...um...very unique.

They are hideous.  My 25 year old even said WTF and she is very unique with her dress style.  

18 hours ago, LadyMsJay said:

Awful. Awful is the word you were looking for. They're really stupid smh lol

she really does. I'm not sure if it's because she tries to dress "younger" than she is or what..

I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head about trying to dress younger that what she is...and yes those pants are awful!

[cgloss]

Does anyone know if Charlotte is next in line to take over the entire Cowboys organization after Jerry dies? Or is it one of the sons? I'm wondering how much would change with DCC once Jerry is gone. Usually a younger generation is more willing to update an organization. This all came about because of the discussion of women of color wearing their natural hair on the squad from another thread. For some reason, I think Jerry wouldn't like to see that, but I don't think Charlotte would actually care that much as long as the women are beautiful and thin. No reason why I think that -- I just do.

[LadyMsJay]

34 minutes ago, cgloss said:

Does anyone know if Charlotte is next in line to take over the entire Cowboys organization after Jerry dies? Or is it one of the sons? I'm wondering how much would change with DCC once Jerry is gone. Usually a younger generation is more willing to update an organization. This all came about because of the discussion of women of color wearing their natural hair on the squad from another thread. For some reason, I think Jerry wouldn't like to see that, but I don't think Charlotte would actually care that much as long as the women are beautiful and thin. No reason why I think that -- I just do.

It will likely be one of the sons...because men.

Also, I doubt it would change much if not at all considering it'd all stay in the family.

[sleepyjean]

14 hours ago, cgloss said:

Does anyone know if Charlotte is next in line to take over the entire Cowboys organization after Jerry dies? Or is it one of the sons? I'm wondering how much would change with DCC once Jerry is gone. Usually a younger generation is more willing to update an organization. This all came about because of the discussion of women of color wearing their natural hair on the squad from another thread. For some reason, I think Jerry wouldn't like to see that, but I don't think Charlotte would actually care that much as long as the women are beautiful and thin. No reason why I think that -- I just do.

How will she change things? That's an interesting question. Clearly Charlotte appreciates the value of the DCC as a brand in and of itself, and the team's value as inexpensive, readily available brand ambassadors for the football team. But she is a powerful woman, seems to be forward-thinking, and I wonder how she feels about the sexism aspect of it. For all the talk about class and America's Sweethearts, sex is a huge component of what the DCC are selling. Does it bother her at all, I wonder?

I was looking at a few other NFL teams and I'm starting to see the beginnings of a slight movement away from the overt sexiness. The Bucs and Vikings just introduced more athletic-looking unis. The Patriots Cheerleaders have a more collegiate-style uniform in the rotation, and some other teams like Saints, and Falcons, are  wearing uniforms with a lot less cleavage these days. It's not a HUGE change. They all still have their super-sexy outfits with low cut tops and boobs propped up to their chin, but it's interesting to see these slightly more modest options creeping in. ("Modest" being an extremely relative term, given the context.) It's all part and parcel of the change that's coming...the lawsuits, the guys on the Rams and Saints squads, the change in the political and cultural climate, etc. I know the DCC will be the very last to change their uniforms, given how in love they are with their own legend/history/tradition. But things will change eventually. I wonder which will happen first, ditching the "iconic" uniform, or just ditching the entire concept of sexy dancing girls on the sidelines altogether? And I wonder if maybe Charlotte will be the beginning of that change.

Edited September 8, 2018 by sleepyjean

[PBSLover]

1 hour ago, sleepyjean said:

I was looking at a few other NFL teams and I'm starting to see the beginnings of a slight movement away from the overt sexiness.

Teams that have accepted male cheerleaders as part of a squad will also temper that.

[parrotfeathers]

I wonder if wardrobe people ever put Kelli in a dress where she thinks "Lord I hate this dress."

I think having male dancers would be quite interesting.  But I think they need to carry the poms also.

[ByTor]

38 minutes ago, parrotfeathers said:

I think having male dancers would be quite interesting.  But I think they need to carry the poms also.

I do too, I think it looks awkward when all but 2 dancers are out there on the field with poms.  Or maybe none of them should be using poms.