S11.E11: All I Could Do Was Cry

[funnygirl]

The ratings for this week are down to a 7.81, a drop from last week's 7.98.  While I don't pay attention much to the show's ratings, I'm wondering if this is a new series low?

 

The past couple episodes have been pretty boring. Sarah Drew and Jesse Williams held their own with Japril's story, but the rest has felt disjointed since it's return from hiatus. Maybe it's just the middle of the season slump.

[Guest]

Samuel Norbert Avery

 

 

Wasn't it Samuel Harper Avery? I thought that's what they said...but could be mistaken.

 

I heard Samuel Harper Avery too but I actually prefer Samuel Norbert Avery. Samuel for the biblical reasons upthread. Norbert as an acceptance that this baby will, in fact, never be picked on at school.

 

Although I think I've seen the "atheist prays to a god he doesn't believe in during a time of crisis" way too many times in pop culture. We don't just up and start believing every time there's a stressful situation, Shonda.

 

I was ready to cringe hard at this trope but actually I found Jackson's 'show up for her' quite moving. It was as if he was daring God to prove him wrong, plus showing that he was at his wit's end in terms of comforting April. It was also one of the only scenes where Jackson did not appear as primary supporter of April, but as a grieving parent himself.

Maybe it's part of the storyline or maybe there's no time for it in the script, but I wish they would show more Jackson dealing with things as an atheist. April is the mother (and has the whole religious issue), but these situations also hit fathers and atheists hard. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by Trichromatic

[JoannKB]

April's mom would probably not shut up about God giving them a miracle and be in their face the whole time.

True, I'm glad she wasn't there, but why wasn't she? Did April & Jackson say that they specifically didn't tell her mom this was happening? Unless they consciously decided to keep the info from April's family it seems odd that her mother and her million sisters weren't there to support her.

[Happy Harpy]

It's probably my favorite episode in a long time. I expected the equivalent of an Oscar-bait movie, and I found it way better than that. It was tragic and emotional, but not heavy and desperate, imo. There was hope here and there, and it made the difference for me.

 

Random reasons:

-the B and C plots were imo as compelling as the A-plot. Color me shocked, I loved the miracle baby one and I didn't even need to suspend disbelief. Well done.

-I liked Bailey for the first time since imo she's become a caricature of herself and since she got Alex's rightful place (I actually skipped a handful of episodes after that, because I was simply too disgusted).

-I liked her husband for the first time in a long while.

-I liked Catherine for the first time in a looong while. She was great, actually, and Debbie Allen understated performance was good.

-I was OK with Richard for the first time in a long while.

-I tolerated Arizona for the first time in a long while. I would have liked her except for the "you're not nice" to Herman. You might talk about rainbows and unicorns, honey, but you callously cheated on your wife. And you let Alex down like an old sock re: his place on the board. It makes you a not nice person, and it certainly doesn't place you in a position to judge others on that level.

-Herman slowly shaping into a character. And she's slowly growing on me.

-I still think that the other Grey sister plot is probably one of the most repetitive, ludicrous ideas that ever came to fruition on this show, but I really like Maggie. I think her development/integration into the show was well handled. I hope she can have friends outside Meredith -especially if she's still the invisible woman for her sister.

 

The highlights/main issues:

 

-I've always liked April (but I came back for S9 after years of hiatus, so...) except for her religious side. Brr. But for the first time, I thought it was handled with subtlety and more nuances than it was before. And I liked that Jackson went to pray for her. The "E.T" mention was excellent, because it made me feel that he still didn't  believe that there was a God. He wasn't in the chapel for himself, or even for his son. I didn't have the feeling that he asked for his son to be saved, I think he knew it wasn't possible. I don't think he asked for a miracle, or that he started believing in miracles for that matter. He was there for April, he asked for April to get what she needed, since she needed her God. It wasn't important for him, imo, it was important for her and that's why he did it. It was, for me, just a beautiful proof of love. There was no instant conversion, and if April didn't get a miracle, she got the sign she needed: it was imo dealt  with well enough so that both believers and non-believers could be satisfied.

I know how devastating the loss of a child can be for a couple, and very often it marks the end. But the way that Jackson and April dealt with it in this episode makes me hopeful that they will make it. I really like them together; they're actually so functional in spite of their differences. They care about each other, it still shows that they were best friends before they were lovers.  It's refreshing.

 

-Co-sign on Alex being third-billed and still being given crumbs. Why oh why? I guess that on Grey's of Thrones, House Karev will never triumph. Sigh.

Wasn't he Jackson's friend/best buddy? How come we don't see him support his friend, Alex-style? I'm trying to comfort myself thinking that the less airtime he gets, the less likely it is that he's ruined for the sake of drama.  Moreover, I love his relationship with Jo, I love the balance it gives him and I don't want to see it ruined "just because". And although I was quite early in favor of Jo, she really wins major points with me for tolerating the "person" situation. Yes, the "Fab 5" didn't have a sense of boundaries, but it went both (well, five) ways...and here, Jo is accepting whereas Meredith still treats her as an outsider/a lesser person.

 

-While we're at it, paging the real Meredith Grey. Who is this unhappy harpy pod-peopling her? I couldn't agree more with what was said upthread. She's more like S1-3 Derek than the Meredith Grey I know and love. Being accepting of new people/outcast, non-judgemental , and devoted to her friends were the main reasons why I appreciated her character. I hardly recognize her, now. And again (nope, I'll never let it go) since she chose Bailey over Alex, she has no fucking right to demand anything from him.

 

-I like Owen and Amelia. I don't think it's rushed. I'm not sure that many characters were celibate for as long as Owen on the course of the show, since his ex-wife's departure. Cristina was my favorite character along with Alex, and I really like Owen with other characters (I especially love his friendship/working relationship with April) but with her...I think that their romantic pairing -in spite of the chemistry- did no favor to either of them, especially after a while. Cristina was awesome for me anyway, so I could write off her going back to him in spite of knowing better; but now I'd like to see how Owen could be with someone who he might be not basically be incompatible with, and maybe how those qualities I've seen with others can translate in a romantic relationship. Amelia seems like she has a mind of her own and is quite opiniated behind her enthusiastic/easy going façade. I also like that she isn't a Cristina-lite or a Cristina 2-0, it's more respectful for everyone imo.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[LakeLover]

Grey's without Derek/Patrick and Meredith/Derek is like potato chips without salt; I might eat them, but not happily and not for long. So far the "B" team isn't really doing it for me. Ratings have gone down, too. I did an ABC Studios Advisory Panel poll in December where they specifically asked about Derek, and I was surprised. I assumed they knew Patrick was taking time off, but it's the first time I recall having a question about his character along with other, secondary characters. I thought, "Either they're phasing him out, or they're worried about ratings."

 

The baby story was touching. Predictable, but touching. Unfortunately the actors don't impress me, so I was not at all emotionally invested. Debbie Allen, who usually makes me cringe, was surprisingly understated, and her hair looked phenomenal. I was pretty horrified and didn't quite believe that April and Jackson had to sign a death certificate. Someone please clue me in if that ever happens in the real world. I was under the impression that a DOCTOR signs a death certificate and then makes them available to the family.

 

Count me amongst those who don't understand what they're doing to Meredith. Yeah, her over-the-top "person" and "I am the sun" things with Cristina were annoying, but this crap with Alex, interrupting Bailey in the chapel, not saying a word of caring or support to April or Jackson, the emergency sex thing (and yeah, I can imagine sex with Derek is great, but...) are all cringe worthy. The "year of Meredith" started out pretty well, but is crashing fast.

 

Amelia and Owen deserve each other. Misery loves company. I still don't know why they have Jo and Stephanie. They have no stories at all, and they bore me. Goodness, this show needs men. I vote for Sam Jaeger. I hear he's available ;)

[windsprints]

I was almost dreading the episode since I'm no fan of sick/dying baby stories but this was a really good episode.  I thought it hit all the right notes, from April's voice overs right through the ending scene with the candles. I liked that it was never too heavy handed or over the top.

 

I still have a tiny problem with April's "that's not fair, how could God do this to me" philosophy. She is a TRAUMA SURGEON, am I to believe that she has never seen a situation where something horrific happens to someone who doesn't deserve it? A child or sweet old lady or nun for example? Or does she assume that she is somehow exempt? Eh, it's just a small nitpick and she did seem to get the message that bad shit just happens sometimes by the end, but it just seems like it should be something she had come to terms with awhile ago.

 

 

I'm giving her a pass on that. I think its natural for any one to feel that its not fair when something like this happens, regardless of their beliefs. She was completely overwhelmed with grief and trying to process and figure out how to move forward. I think logically she knew that it can happen to anyone but at that moment when it was happening to her she wasn't a trauma doctor, she was a mom losing her baby.

 

I'm glad they just quietly referred to her situation, instead of her making a big thing out of it and a ton of melodrama.

 

I am too. I was hoping that Amelia would have scenes with April but I think the way they did it was so much better. Amelia helped in a subtle ways which was so much better.

 

I liked all of April/Jackson's scenes (not usual for me) and the one with Catherine was one of the best of the episode. I also liked the patient storylines in the episode.

 

Meredith was self-involved as usual.  April and Jackson lived with her and Jackson is on the board with her yet not even a thought to what they were going through or a word to support them. That is bad enough but the way she interrupted Bailey praying to beg for babysitting was the worst. I suppose its in character for her - just ignore the problem and pretend its not there. 

 

[funnygirl]

Grey's isn't always good at building up a character without breaking down another. And I've felt like they've been doing that with Meredith and Maggie since the beginning of the season. Like in order to make Maggie more appealing and accepted, they have Meredith behaving extra weird. It's not enough of a contrast that Maggie and Meredith are almost nothing alike, but all of the good and endearing parts of Meredith are being stomped on and flipped and for what? I don't know, it makes no sense to me but I've just been thinking about this for 11 episodes now. 

[Greysaddict]

I'm a long time fan (and lurker) and finally created an account to agree with this 1000%

-While we're at it, paging the real Meredith Grey. Who is this unhappy harpy pod-peopling her? I couldn't agree more with what was said upthread. She's more like S1-3 Derek than the Meredith Grey I know and love. Being accepting of new people/outcast, non-judgemental , and devoted to her friends were the main reasons why I appreciated her character. I hardly recognize her, now. And again (nope, I'll never let it go) since she chose Bailey over Alex, she has no fucking right to demand anything from him.

Seriously, what happened to the old Meredith Grey? She used to be caring and compassionate despite being "dark and twisty". This Meredith had four scenes the entire episode all which she was either begging someone to cover her shifts or watch the kids. She didn't even light a candle for the Avery baby! I really wonder what the writers were thinking this episode. Her scenes seemed really out of place.

Otherwise, I though April and Jackson really knocked it out of the park. That birth scene was completely heartbreaking. And, Catherine was also the best I've ever seen her.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Greysaddict

[Lillybee]

Mer, if you want to go to DC for a sexy weekend with Derick, why not plan a few weeks ahead and please stop dumping on Jo.

[ChicksDigScars]

Okay, now y'all are making me go back and watch this episode to find out his middle name. I heard Samuel Harper Avery and even rewound the DVR to make sure. So if I misheard it, I misheard it twice...which is entirely possible. Norbert was discussed earlier and dismissed as a way to get a poor kid's ass kicked on the playground...until they stopped and realized that this would never happen to their child. But, Harper Avery was Jackson's grandfather (who called him "Jackie" in the episode where no one would operate on him for fear of being stigmatized as the person who killed THE Harper Avery). So, Favorite Uncle vs. Grandfather. Either is possible and half the posters heard one thing and half heard the other. 

 

I actually thought that the kid was going to end up being named Michael, after April comforted the fiancee who was left behind, and listened to how wonderful a guy that Michael was. 

 

 

 

Grey's without Derek/Patrick and Meredith/Derek is like potato chips without salt; I might eat them, but not happily and not for long

 

Yup. So much THIS.

Edited February 14, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[WalrusGirl]

No real comment on Mer - I'm also bewildered at why she wouldn't take the kids to see Derek (though that's two major flights for just a weekend, but the plan can't be for Derek to always fly to Seattle unless it will happen off-screen). Would have liked for Alex to call her on the pot calling the kettle black (re Jo being a "hoodlum"), or better yet Mer being appreciative but not comfortable because Zola doesn't know her. Though that clearly wasn't a concern either.

Wasn't it Samuel Harper Avery? I thought that's what they said...but could be mistaken.

That's what I heard too, and reading here wondered if I'd misheard. I liked their giving him the big significant family name, but would also love it if Jackson's choice were the middle name (which is what I thought they should do while discussing "Norbert" originally). Shame it obviously isn't "Samuel Norbert Harper Avery," since we're all consistent in hearing three names and not four!

I'm sure there's a reason, but if the baby was already in pain and his bones breaking in utero, why would they put him through the trauma of a vaginal birth? Wouldn't it have been easier on him to do a C-section?

I think because it was *technically* a termination (hence the papers before the death certificate that Dr. Herman needed signed), it wouldn't be at all medically indicated/justifiable to perform major surgery on the mom? And maybe (this I hope) he was still small enough for that not to be a big concern in birth (or yet in utero; I think it was certainly that tidbit that kept April from wanting to carry to term), if he was positioned correctly? I wondered about that too, and was thinking I'd have asked for some kind of pain medication that would reach him ahead of the birth. Presumably any OI baby at term - especially type 3 and maybe 1 and 4, if pain management was realistic for type 2 at term not expected to survive - would be delivered via c-section.

ITA re Catherine - the character and the actress played it really well. So grateful that April's mom wasn't back (not due to her beliefs, but she drives me nuts in general); given her pushiness when she was in town, I can see why they didn't call her back out to argue or plant what was, at that point, false hope.

I don´t feel any sympathy for Amelia, she is a drug addict she stuffed her body with drugs and expected her baby would be healthy??!!! She did it to herself and to her baby, she is the one responsible for it, it´s upon her.

This isn't totally on-topic, but it wasn't the drugs that cause that kind of birth defect - it's the lack of folic acid/prenatal vitamins (and even with, some babies have neural tube defects; a healthy dose of luck or bad luck is still involved either way). Obviously her being on a major bender gave her no chance to get folic acid via her diet, and she didn't know she was pregnant to start vitamins until she was relatively far along (though anencephaly occurs within a few weeks of development, before most women would know they were pregnant), but the drugs didn't actually cause the fatal defect. Prevention of neural tube defects is a major reason that most women who are trying to conceive are advised to start prenatal vitamins. Babies in utero are actually surprisingly resilient to recreational drugs - smoking and certainly alcohol use are riskier for an infant's health than most illegal drugs - though obviously I'm not advocating for drug use! PP really bugged me when they had one doctor (unsuccessfully) comfort her by saying anencephaly was genetic, which isn't accurate - the only known genetic risk factor is a gene that's involved in processing folate/folic acid. PP could have done a much better job explaining that type of birth defect and being a little PSA for the importance of folic acid in early fetal development.

I did like how they showed Amelia being affected by a fatal birth defect without making it about her, trying to comfort the two doctors she barely knows right now just because she's been there, etc. I thought she was written and behaved appropriately, and only involved herself to tell everyone else to step back and give them space right now.

Edited February 14, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[WalrusGirl]

Ok, I just sat through a bunch of commercials to find the scene in the ABC app's streaming episode with closed captioning - it is Samuel Norbert Avery. I guess I'll trust ABC's closed captioning over my own hearing!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I heard Samuel Norbert Avery too. I also found this on ABC's website:

 

 

April let’s (sic) Jackson know that they should name their baby Samuel Norbert Avery. The Norbert is for her husband’s uncle.

 

And you can listen here:

http://youtu.be/kjCTEIl5ZiQ?t=2m27s

Edited February 14, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ChicksDigScars]

Thanks for the You Tube. Saved me sitting through the whole sad story again. I heard Norbert, there, Well it wouldn't be the first time that my hearing has sucked (thank you growing up when major concert tickets were $10 to $20 a pop, living at the center point between Chicago, Milwaukee and Alpine Valley, AND sitting in my bedroom every night with my headphones turned up to 11. AND working in a bar in college with live head banging bands every weekend). I spent most of my adult life from my 20's on, saying "What?" to people. Sometimes I stand right next to people and can't understand what they're fucking saying.  My parents dragging me to the drag races every weekend as a child may also have contributed to this. Public service announcement....don't do these things before adulthood,

[Clanstarling]

I haven't teared up while watching this show for a very long time. I did with every Jackson and April scene. They were both great, but I thought Jesse was particularly good. I am amazed Sarah actually suggested this story line. I've always hated when shows put actually pregnant actresses through this kind of stress and drama. It seems unhealthy in many ways, but especially emotionally.

 

I'm not a religious person, but the (very) few times I lit candles for those I've lost, it always moved me. There is something comforting in symbolic acts, even when you don't believe in the dogma. So that final scene with all those candles lit really choked me up. It was also a relatively subtle sign of how many people were thinking of Jackson and April.

 

Count me in as liking Debbie Allen's performance (and on a more shallow note - her hairstyle).

Edited February 14, 2015 by clanstarling

[Clanstarling]

After reading a recap, I have a question about the papers April and Jackson were signing. I've been present at the deaths of two of my family members, and don't recall having to sign anything at all for the death certificate - that was the doctor's job.

 

Does anyone know if this is different for stillbirth/late term termination? Since they signed the other documents, it seems unnecessary.

[Greysaddict]

After reading a recap, I have a question about the papers April and Jackson were signing. I've been present at the deaths of two of my family members, and don't recall having to sign anything at all for the death certificate - that was the doctor's job.

 

Does anyone know if this is different for stillbirth/late term termination? Since they signed the other documents, it seems unnecessary.

I think the papers they were signing were to not give the baby any post-birth intervention since at 24 weeks the he could have lived (on a respirator and such). Sort of like a DNR.

[Clanstarling]

I think the papers they were signing were to not give the baby any post-birth intervention since at 24 weeks the he could have lived (on a respirator and such). Sort of like a DNR.

Yes, there were papers like that. But as I recall, there was also one that specifically said Death Certificate, and that is the one April finally freaked out about. Am I just mis-remembering?

[CleoCaesar]

From the show's perspective, why would they be shown having a whole conversation about the name Norbert and how much Jackson loved it, and then NOT used it as their baby's middle name?

[lovedoldGreys]

Loved and agree with everything you said LakeLover. :)

[jcbrown]

 

But as I recall, there was also one that specifically said Death Certificate, and that is the one April finally freaked out about. Am I just mis-remembering?

That's what I saw, too, and I also wondered why they would have to sign it instead of just the doctor signing it.

[kingshearte]

I liked that they showed that Amelia knew what they were going through without using it to comfort them or something. They just had Amelia tell the rest of the crowd what they should do for April and Jackson and left it at that.

Agreed. I thought that was really nicely handled, and made me like her more (although I didn't dislike her before).

 

Although I think I've seen the "atheist prays to a god he doesn't believe in during a time of crisis" way too many times in pop culture. We don't just up and start believing every time there's a stressful situation, Shonda.

I actually thought this part was great, too, because it kinda wasn't really that. What I got from that was not that Jackson suddenly believes because of his own crisis, but that he was watching his usually-comforted-by-God-wife go through a faith crisis, and understanding that he couldn't help her with that. And that he was also completely wrecked by the situation, and because the religion thing matters so much to her, if there was any chance that talking to whatever being may or may not be there might help her out, he would do it, and did, for her, and I thought that was actually kind of beautiful.

 

I did like how Catherine was realistic about the medicine and supportive of April's Christian views at the same time. She was not over the top like April's mom. April's mom would probably not shut up about God giving them a miracle and be in their face the whole time. Catherine respected their desire to be alone.

I found this particularly interesting after April's mother last week. I actually agreed with the person who said in response to my comments about April's mom's behaviour that Catherine would likely be just as pushy, possibly even to the point of getting Jackson alone to work on him in isolation the way Mama Kepner did. So it was really nice how not like that Catherine was. And much as I do not particularly care for April's mom, especially after that stunt, and did not miss her this week, I did think it was weird for her not to be around, and I think the two grandmothers could have had a nice moment.

 

I'm not a religious person, but the (very) few times I lit candles for those I've lost, it always moved me. There is something comforting in symbolic acts, even when you don't believe in the dogma. So that final scene with all those candles lit really choked me up. It was also a relatively subtle sign of how many people were thinking of Jackson and April.

Me too. I'm a pretty committed heathen, but there are some elements of religion and faith that I think extend beyond that and can be very profound even from a secular place.

 

I actually kinda liked Herman this week, as she demonstrated what professionalism is actually supposed to look like. I kind of loved how she shut Arizona down about being their doctor, including, among other reasons, the fact that, "In that room, only one set of feelings matters, and it isn't yours." And I do remain amused every time a TV doctor gets all indignant at the idea that anyone besides them should treat their close personal friends/relatives.

 

Not even going to get into Meredith. I don't know if her stuff was meant to provide levity to this episode, but it was so out of place and made her seem so, so awful. It would have worked better in almost any other episode.

 

I will say, though, that, despite the extreme rudeness of interrupting Bailey's prayer, I did love her "You know what I was going to say."

[ChicksDigScars]

From the show's perspective, why would they be shown having a whole conversation about the name Norbert and how much Jackson loved it, and then NOT used it as their baby's middle name?

 

I know we're conditioned to be smacked on the head by flying anvils in every show Shonda is involved with, but I actually thought it was a moment of levity in a heavy episode. There always needs to be something light or joyous in an episode that deals with such tragedy as losing a child. The whole Norbert conversation seemed to be a way to lighten the mood for a scene or two, since the rest of the show was such a downer. (No, show. Meredith's selfish search for a babysitter was not amusing)  Norbert was basically regarded as the name equivalent to hanging a sign that says "Kick Me" on the kid's back and shown as the last moment April smiled during the episode. So, no. I really didn't think they'd use it.  Jackson suggesting it even seemed to be a teasing moment, as if he was trying to make April smile. 

 

All I can think of when I hear Norbert is that horrible Eddie Murphy movie that basically COST him the Oscar for Dreamgirls. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[Deanie87]

See, that was the scene that choked me up the most. It was cute, but then of course the realization that Samuel is never going to grow up, to be bullied or otherwise, hits us and them, and how whatever they name him wont change anying. That was a very understated scene, especially for Greys, and the one that I thought captured the enormity of their situation the most.

I laughed a little at Owen and Hunt lighting a candle, especially Alex burning himself, but I love Alex and take what I can get these days.

[Nobodysfan]

Grey's without Derek/Patrick and Meredith/Derek is like potato chips without salt; I might eat them, but not happily and not for long. So far the "B" team isn't really doing it for me. Ratings have gone down, too. I did an ABC Studios Advisory Panel poll in December where they specifically asked about Derek, and I was surprised. I assumed they knew Patrick was taking time off, but it's the first time I recall having a question about his character along with other, secondary characters. I thought, "Either they're phasing him out, or they're worried about ratings."

 

The baby story was touching. Predictable, but touching. Unfortunately the actors don't impress me, so I was not at all emotionally invested. Debbie Allen, who usually makes me cringe, was surprisingly understated, and her hair looked phenomenal. I was pretty horrified and didn't quite believe that April and Jackson had to sign a death certificate. Someone please clue me in if that ever happens in the real world. I was under the impression that a DOCTOR signs a death certificate and then makes them available to the family.

 

Count me amongst those who don't understand what they're doing to Meredith. Yeah, her over-the-top "person" and "I am the sun" things with Cristina were annoying, but this crap with Alex, interrupting Bailey in the chapel, not saying a word of caring or support to April or Jackson, the emergency sex thing (and yeah, I can imagine sex with Derek is great, but...) are all cringe worthy. The "year of Meredith" started out pretty well, but is crashing fast.

 

Amelia and Owen deserve each other. Misery loves company. I still don't know why they have Jo and Stephanie. They have no stories at all, and they bore me. Goodness, this show needs men. I vote for Sam Jaeger. I hear he's available ;)

 

You always make me laugh when this show punches me in the gut. Perfect summary. Bravo!

Edited February 14, 2015 by owenhuntfan

[windsprints]

The ratings for this week are down to a 7.81, a drop from last week's 7.98.  While I don't pay attention much to the show's ratings, I'm wondering if this is a new series low?

 

No it wasn't.  Replying re: ratings in general in the Ratings thread.

 

Would have liked for Alex to call her on the pot calling the kettle black (re Jo being a "hoodlum"), or better yet Mer being appreciative but not comfortable because Zola doesn't know her. Though that clearly wasn't a concern either.

 

Clearly not, lol! Zola probably knows Jo better than Maggie or at least probably has met her once or twice.

I'm not sure we'll ever see Alex call Meredith out like that since he's been saddled with being her person.  I'm encouraged by Maggie. I'm really hoping the person crap gets transferred to her soon. She seems to want it while Alex finds it to be a pain in the ass.

[WalrusGirl]

From the show's perspective, why would they be shown having a whole conversation about the name Norbert and how much Jackson loved it, and then NOT used it as their baby's middle name?

Right (other than "levity" and the realization that their child would never have a chance to be bullied over his name), I did think that was weird, but I (and many others, apparently) just heard "Harper," no ambiguity, and that's a prestigious family name with meaning too, so... Glad half of us heard wrong, since I liked that but had wanted them to use the name Jackson wanted somehow!

After reading a recap, I have a question about the papers April and Jackson were signing. I've been present at the deaths of two of my family members, and don't recall having to sign anything at all for the death certificate - that was the doctor's job.

Does anyone know if this is different for stillbirth/late term termination? Since they signed the other documents, it seems unnecessary.

I think the papers they were signing were to not give the baby any post-birth intervention since at 24 weeks the he could have lived (on a respirator and such). Sort of like a DNR.

Yes, there were papers like that. But as I recall, there was also one that specifically said Death Certificate, and that is the one April finally freaked out about. Am I just mis-remembering?

Nope, there were both the induction-termination papers (the effective DNR) and the death certificate - there's a clip of the scene here: http://youtu.be/xV2c5o5GOdc

I've also been the one present and reported time of death for a family member, but had nothing to do with the death certificate (until eventually getting a copy), but that was on the east coast with an adult. It seemed odd to me too. I'm thinking it was probably just for dramatic purposes, to be April's breaking point (though I sort of expected it to be the termination papers immediately prior, and was glad they didn't go back to the (technical) abortion debate) - based on the standard US death certificate (https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/29467/death-cert.pdf) , the parents wouldn't need to sign unless they were also the pronouncing physicians. Herman was there to do so - she talked to Arizona in the hallway after the baby had died. So unless Washington State uses a very altered form, that was probably just for drama. What the hospital would have needed within about six hours of death was the funeral home they wanted to use, so they could have just as easily had her ask them for that info instead.

[KnitsWithRaceCars]

@LakeLover if I could give your post an infinite number of likes for all of eternity, I would.

 

I wanted to reach in my TV and beeyotch slap Meredith all the way to Washington DC.

 

Count me among those who were immensely relieved at Debbie Allen's unusually understated performance. I too cringe when I see that she's in front of the camera.  I'm not sure who's worse, Debbie Allen or Sally Field as Abby's mother on ER.  I also very much like Debbie Allen's short hair.

 

Regarding death certificates:  I have copies of the death certificates for many of my relatives, having obtained them while doing family history research.  My most recent one is my grandfather's, and he died in 1996.  I cannot recall seeing a family member's signature on any of them--they all just have signatures from doctors.  I think that April and Jackson having to sign the death certificate was either another Shondaland mistake or something they thought they could get away with and use for dramatic effect.

[mojito]

In the minority here, I know. Don't get wrapped up in this show, can barely remember plot twists from a year ago, let alone the first season, and just take it with a grain of salt. I liked the handling of the Jackson baby storyline. Glad they didn't have the baby linger. Although I don't watch all popular TV shows, I wonder, "Doesn't anyone ever abort?" Is this a network taboo? That's chickenshit.

 

As for Meredith being a bitch, I just see the writers trying to tread water with Meredith until they can put the Meredith-Derek relationship on hold. (I must also admit to not knowing anything about actors leaving series.....really, I might waste some a lot of time watching these shows and a little time commenting on these shows, but cannot bring myself to do any research on the comings and goings of the actors on these shows, I just don't care enough.) If the show's calling a hiatus on Meredith and Derek's marriage, it stands to reason that the handling of an actor's absence will be awkward. I can get over temporary anomalies.

[JayCeeJ]

 

Grey's without Derek/Patrick and Meredith/Derek is like potato chips without salt; I might eat them, but not happily and not for long. So far the "B" team isn't really doing it for me.

Amen to this. Given how little screen time PD has had for a long time now, I've been a little surprised to realize how much of a difference his complete absence makes. Gives me renewed appreciation for what he brings to the show. It takes a strong male presence to cut through the estrogen-fest that this show has become. (I'm very much a feminist, but someone needs to explain to Shonda et al. that you don't write empowered women by writing emasculated men. It's not a zero-sum game!)

 

I'm appalled at the way Meredith is being written this season; it feels like character assassination. Who is this pod person and what has she done with Meredith Grey? I know she's always had a narcissistic streak, but this is ridiculous. I guess this is the toxic legacy of Christina's horrible departing words: "He's not the sun; you are." Hated that when I first heard it and have hated it ever since. Meredith needs to grow up and realize that her husband is her person. (As a side note, I know it will never happen, but I wish TPTB would come clean about PD and EP's contract status. We know they signed through S12, but it looks to me as if they both negotiated further reductions in workload. Of course, PD's absence may also be due to his personal situation, which would be understandable.)

 

I had a bad feeling about the ep as soon as I heard April's VO. I can't bring myself to care about Jackson and April; I never bought them as a couple in the first place. JW is pretty and I admire his RL activism, but as an actor he does nothing for me. Also nothing against SD, whom I've enjoyed in other roles, but I've loathed the character of April Kepner since she first arrived. I was grateful for Debbie Allen's uncharacteristic restraint in this ep. Catherine Avery usually sends me running for the mute button. 

 

I've always liked Amelia, but it feels strange and wrong to have someone call for Dr. Shepherd and to have it be someone other than Derek. I'd love to see them working together.

 

Mileage varies, of course, but I thought the ep was predictable and choppy. Subtlety has never been GA's strong point, but episodes that try too hard to manipulate emotions tend to leave me cold. I will also say that as a person of faith, I didn't like the framing device of the candle-lighting. It seemed trite and clumsy to me, as so often happens in TV/film when writers try to incorporate religious ideas and practices they don't really understand. IRL, the hospital would have a chaplain and/or pastoral care team either on staff or on call.

 

I've watched this show from the start and it makes me sad to see it now. I wish I thought the downhill slide could be reversed, but I think it's time to just wrap it up.

 

[ChicksDigScars]

someone needs to explain to Shonda et al. that you don't write empowered women by writing emasculated men

 

Holy cats. I want to marry this statement on a Post It.  I want to cut its LVAD wire and switch envelopes so that I ruin its clinical trial. BRAVO.

[lovedoldGreys]

JayCeeJ I love and agree w all you said! Amen.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

it wouldn't be the first time that my hearing has sucked (thank you growing up when major concert tickets were $10 to $20 a pop, living at the center point between Chicago, Milwaukee and Alpine Valley, AND sitting in my bedroom every night with my headphones turned up to 11. AND working in a bar in college with live head banging bands every weekend). I spent most of my adult life from my 20's on, saying "What?" to people. Sometimes I stand right next to people and can't understand what they're fucking saying.  My parents dragging me to the drag races every weekend as a child may also have contributed to this. Public service announcement....don't do these things before adulthood,

I second this PSA. Mr. EB worked at many arena concerts in high school and college without ear plugs, regularly did yardwork with heavy machinery without any ear protection (we're talking more than just a loud lawnmower and a weed whacker), rode public transportation to/from work with headphones cranked up so he could hear his music over the roar of the train for years, and now can't hear when a coworker asks him a question from ten feet away. Wear ear protection, people! You don't want to be the guy under 40 who is talking to his doctor possibly getting a hearing aid. It seems especially fitting to share this information on a forum about a doctor show. Just call me Dr. Boogaloo. I care about your future eardrums.

 

I can't bring myself to care about Jackson and April; I never bought them as a couple in the first place. JW is pretty and I admire his RL activism, but as an actor he does nothing for me. Also nothing against SD, whom I've enjoyed in other roles, but I've loathed the character of April Kepner since she first arrived.

Yes to all of this. I never bought them when they were just having sex and then I never bought them as jealous when they were dating other people and I never bought them as a couple after Jackson interrupted her wedding and then they secretly got married. It's a combination of the way their characters are written (April is annoying) and the acting (JW isn't awful but he just seems like he's there to be pretty). I felt like a heartless bitch for not caring about their sick baby storyline but even with all the drama this episode, I still didn't care. I was like ugh, just let the baby die already so we can move on to something else. And then I felt bad for thinking that, even though it's just a fictional baby dying. I also found it ridulous that the ER supposedly went to pieces without April there to organize everything and everyone. I get that she is supposed to be this organizational whiz but what did they do before she was there? And what do they do now on her days off?

[LeGrandElephant]

I fast forwarded a lot of it. Can someone briefly summarize the Jackson and April storhline because it was too annoying to watch. Tell me Jackson didn't suddenly get religion?

People often talk about religion being comforting, etc. I want to say, as an atheist, I am hugely comforted by not having to worry at all about whether my negative thoughts and feelings could have caused someone else's disease. Doctors should be scientific enough to know that it doesn't work like that.

Edited February 15, 2015 by LeGrandElephant

[LeGrandElephant]

I also have a question about the logistics of the induction/birth/termination. Was there an option to do an abortion where the fetus would be terminated inside the uterus instead of coming out alive? Because it seems like that must have been painful and resulted in broken bones. Did they do the whole birth thing because of April's feelings, or medical reasons, or legal reasons? (I know late term abortions are complicated legally and often you have to travel - was wondering if they'd talk at all about how people in this situation sometimes have to travel to Kansas and get yelled at my protestors and stuff).

[Muffyn]

I did like how they showed Amelia being affected by a fatal birth defect without making it about her, trying to comfort the two doctors she barely knows right now just because she's been there, etc. I thought she was written and behaved appropriately, and only involved herself to tell everyone else to step back and give them space right now.

I think this is the first time Amelia did not make me stabby.  April was right, miracles do happen!

[LakeLover]

I was also disturbed at the thought that they would induce labor instead of doing a c-section, but I read something that explained that if there is not a chance of survival for the infant (long term), then a vaginal delivery is preferable for the mother. So, if the baby had a less severe case of OI, they would do a section, but since they knew he would not live long, they induced.

 

I wondered if they did it that way for the dramatic effect, but it turns out they were really being medically accurate.

[izabella]

I also have a question about the logistics of the induction/birth/termination. Was there an option to do an abortion where the fetus would be terminated inside the uterus instead of coming out alive? Because it seems like that must have been painful and resulted in broken bones. Did they do the whole birth thing because of April's feelings, or medical reasons, or legal reasons? (I know late term abortions are complicated legally and often you have to travel - was wondering if they'd talk at all about how people in this situation sometimes have to travel to Kansas and get yelled at my protestors and stuff).

 

 I wondered about that, too.  I'd think they'd want to avoid a vaginal delivery because of the broken bones issue.  But I suspect that April would not have ever even contemplated an abortion, so they didn't bring it up.  It did, however, come up when Geena Davis was asking them to sign the paperwork.  One of the documents clearly said Termination, so they knew that vaginal delivery or not, they were essentially terminating the pregnancy by inducing at 24 weeks when they knew the baby would die shortly thereafter OR during delivery.

 

Inducing labor knowing the baby would die soon after or during delivery seemed like an "elegant" solution to eliminate April's objections to an abortion, and to avoid the baby having 3 more months of broken bones in utero.

Edited February 15, 2015 by izabella

[LeGrandElephant]

I agree that they induced because April would not feel ok about calling it an "abortion". But I would have liked to see some discussion of the controversial options and legalities.

[Trillian]

"After reading a recap, I have a question about the papers April and Jackson were signing. I've been present at the deaths of two of my family members, and don't recall having to sign anything at all for the death certificate - that was the doctor's job."

I signed the death certificates for each of my parents - but at the funeral home and not at the hospital. On the formal copy they gave me, I am listed as "informant". I also have a hazy, grief-stricken memory of signing something official-looking at the hospital after my mother died - no idea what it was but I seem to recall it was some acknowledgement of her death that allowed them to transfer her body to the funeral home. I could see that some jurisdictions might require next-of-kin signature, especially since Samuel Norbert (I also heard Harper) was far enough along to require a birth certificate (and therefore a death certificate.

Damn callous to ask them to sign it in advance, though.

[moonorchid]

I thought this was one of the better episodes of the season if not in the top 10 of the series. Sarah Drew and Jesse Williams were phenomenal. I was surprised by JW, I truly feel he's grown so much as an actor, compare his work in this episode to season 6 and 7 Jackson and it's really noticeable.

I wish this part of the story wasn't introduced and finished in three episodes. I'm not sure it really took advantage of time but regardless, I was touched by this episode.

The way Aprils religion was handled this episode was leaps and bounds better then anything else the show has written for her in the past. It was actually handled with nuance and care. Her devastation, then anger, then acceptance was authentic and true to her character. Sarah Drew has said In interviews she seeing April as having a more mature faith and I hope for that too, cause up to now it's been very shallow.

Aprils struggle with this decision was interesting to watch, and I'm the end she chose being a mother to her child over her beliefs, and I thought it was beautiful.

Jackson was an amazing husband. I was afraid his going to church was him having a "come to Jesus" moment. I don't need that for him as much as I domt need April to "come to her senses". I loved that he wasn't asking for anything for him or even his baby, but he asked for April. Whom in the scene previous to this was having a breakdown and doubting the things she has held dear to her all her life and he saw how that was breaking her. So he went and asked a deity he didn't believe in, but his wife did, and asked for him to show up for April. I've watched this show from the beginning and have loved all the couples and their big moments, but this was the first time I've ever been thrown by how much one character loves another. He loves her so much that he got over his hang up and did something that is so far beyond his own rationale. I'm not sure any character has done something of that magnitude for a significant other.

This episode really propelled Jackson and April as a couple for me. I've been hooked since she kissed him outside of her hotel room at the boards and I have believed in their chemistry, but the writing has not always been there for them, so at times it has felt shallow when I've always felt they could be so much deeper. This episode really went there for me and it has solidified them in such a deep way.

It's odd to say, but the way it played out with the baby dying, I thought it was beautiful.

When April was comforting the fiancé, I felt that not only was she comforting her, but she was finding the words to comfort herself. For her to come to peace with her baby dying and believing she would be okay in the end was the miracle she was looking for and the answered prayer Jackson was asking.

That moment I felt was Sarah Drew's best acting to date and where I felt April Kepner was redefined.

I cried from beginning to end but this episode has stayed with me.

[gator12]

There are different types of abortion, reading the http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/abortion-procedures/ she had the induction kind. Since she was way into her second trimester she could only have a D&E abortion which is a surgical procedure or the one she had. The writers used the right terminology imo, I don't think it had anything to do with April beliefs. 

 

The induction abortion was done so April and Jackson could spend time with their child before he die. With the kind they had they could also do genetic testing and autopsy, which won't happen on the show. http://www.webmd.com/women/induction-abortion 

[izabella]

That's interesting, because they never used the word abortion, not once.  I have to believe that was deliberate.

[PrincessTT]

That's interesting, because they never used the word abortion, not once.  I have to believe that was deliberate.

 

They did use the word termination though when they were signing the forms. 

I have a few friends that work in the medical profession and they all use 'termination' rather than 'abortion' when talking to patients as it sounds less colloquial. 

[BC Mama]

Most of my thoughts were covered already, far better than I would have, so I won't repeat them. There were a few nit picky things that bothered me:

Why did Meredith need to tell her father figure Richard that she had a sex emergency (or anyone for that matter)? What's wrong with just saying I miss my husband?

Also, Owen telling April that they could not function without her on what is likely the worst day of her life was INCREDIBLY inappropriate. April had enough to deal with, without a guilt trip.

And, do the doctors really pay such little attention to who they talk to that they assume anyone wearing scrubs is an intern? Even if they aren't wearing ID?

[timimouse]

I'm sure there's a reason, but if the baby was already in pain and his bones breaking in utero, why would they put him through the trauma of a vaginal birth? Wouldn't it have been easier on him to do a C-section?

 

In response to this and all the other enquiries about why they didn't terminate / perform a c-section. A lot of people tend to forget that a C-section is considered major surgery, which has it's own complications and risks associated with it. When dealing with births, you have to consider the safest options for both baby AND mother. That's why even still births are done via vaginal births and not c-sections. As stated previously, c-sections are opted for when the baby's chances of survival are very high. In this case, they knew that he wasn't going to live and so a vaginal birth, being the most natural option is safest.

 

Not much more else to add as most of it has been said... However, will take a moment to agree that Debbie Allen was SUPERB in this episode! That first scene with Jackson and April and telling them how to cope.... amazing.

[Nobodysfan]

Also, Owen telling April that they could not function without her on what is likely the worst day of her life was INCREDIBLY inappropriate. April had enough to deal with, without a guilt trip.

 

 

I sometimes asks myself,especially in scenes like these why I actually still like Owen, what he said was totally inappropriate towards April, to even talk about work at all. 

Also he is totally depicted as incapable of running the ER, he practically doesn´t know what to do, he only walks here and there and does nothing.

The only thing he does is stalking Amelia in the corridors and chapel and the only thing he does is hold her hand. 

What a "romance"!

Can the writers be even more obvious that She-Shepherd will get Hunt into bed sooner or later and have that near stroke sex she talked about in 1102 and have him be the one she shares her empty bed with like she talked about in 1110??? 

Edited February 17, 2015 by owenhuntfan

[Biggie B]

I'm quite late to this party, so I don't really have any original comments - I very much echo most of what's already been said. For me, the standout of the episode was Catherine. She looked so very weary, just as one would when one's children are suffering. Her scene with April and Jackson was excellent. Now THAT'S how you parent your kids, whether they are two or thirty two years old. I can't imagine for one moment that April's mother would have been capable of pulling off that scene. She may be waiting for April and Jackson at home - no way of knowing, but I'll imagine that.  I'm glad Catherine and Richard seem to be making their way back to each other (or at least, I hope they are). They're both flawed people, yet that doesn't mean they can't make each other happy. I'm rooting for them.

 

I heard Norbert as the baby's middle name. 

 

Didn't really pay strict attention to the scene in which April and Jackson had to sign the all the paperwork. As for the document that April initially refused to sign before bolting, I thought it was a request for a death certificate, not the actual certificate itself. My mother died two years ago, and boy oh boy, did we need a ton of certified copies of the death certificate to wrap up everything that follows someone's death. So that's how I envisioned it...that Geena Davis was having April and Jackson sign the request form for the death certificate so that they wouldn't have to do so afterwards. Because unfortunately, they will indeed need little Samuel's death certificate. But it's beside the point - it was just a device to allow April to have that moment of complete denial and refusal. And that resolved itself when April had to comfort the woman whose fiance had just died.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Biggie B

[Stardancer Supreme]

Most of my thoughts were covered already, far better than I would have, so I won't repeat them. There were a few nit picky things that bothered me:

Why did Meredith need to tell her father figure Richard that she had a sex emergency (or anyone for that matter)? What's wrong with just saying I miss my husband?

Also, Owen telling April that they could not function without her on what is likely the worst day of her life was INCREDIBLY inappropriate. April had enough to deal with, without a guilt trip.

And, do the doctors really pay such little attention to who they talk to that they assume anyone wearing scrubs is an intern? Even if they aren't wearing ID?

 

Now that was the thing that seemed constant at Grey Sloane Memorial (Is that the current name of the hospital? I forget.). It is that easy for a person who didn't belong there to blend in so well that no one notices except the one person who is in charge of damn near everything.  Of course only April knew all the interns by face and name!  But I know this is not how a real hospital operates, so I am able to suspend belief. 

[Muffyn]

I sometimes asks myself,especially in scenes like these why I actually still like Owen, what he said was totally inappropriate towards April, to even talk about work at all. 

Also he is totally depicted as incapable of running the ER, he practically doesn´t know what to do, he only walks here and there and does nothing.

The only thing he does is stalking Amelia in the corridors and chapel and the only thing he does is hold her hand. 

What a "romance"!

Can the writers be even more obvious that She-Shepherd will get Hunt into bed sooner or later and have that near stroke sex she talked about in 1102 and have him be the one she shares her empty bed with like she talked about in 1110??? 

Way back when Owen first appeared, he seemed to be a master of trauma care and incredibly capable of not only running the ER but improving their methods, processes and success rates.  Now he is capable of standing around looking either concerned, angry or constipated, depending on the scene.  That hospital doesn't just kill physicians through bizarre circumstances, it destroys their skills and competence.  After a few years there, I'm surprised he can dress himself.