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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

I can't help but wondering... Is this really it? Speculation about whether they Cas was corrupted in Purgatory appears above. To wit, that monster future and the reminder of s 6 and Eve made me thing Chuck perhaps got Eve to mess with Cas or she did it on her own; see above. Dabb does love monsters and a hot mess.

Then I just cannot shake that the puppet master aspect, the focus on Dean's former friend owning a bar and having the archangel Michael be such a great host to Adam... maybe these are clues. Yeah. Call me stubborn. I cannot give up hope that this is all a terrible head injury come dream of Dean's who feels like the puppet of AU Michael. And that this is why he's been so ineffectual except for yelling. It explains why he slept in Purgatory. Why there were no monsters in Purgatory. Why he was just a spectator to so little whilst there.

It all leads back to Ouroboros which is the snake eating its tail and which was where the story abruptly ate it's own tale. Everything after that point has just felt off in a profound way. Is this all on Dean's head. Are terrible things happening while Dean is asleep and is AI Michael in charge.

IDK. Crazy ideas. Season 13 in its entirety was Dean's heroes journey and in Let the Good Times Roll, an episode which follows Aristotle's outlines for the perfect Greek tragedy pretty well, Dean falls tragically by saying yes to the psychotically murderous AU Michael.

Season 14 Ouroboros was also set up as a classic Greek heroic tale modeled after Greek story the hero Perseus killing the gorgon Medusa. It clearly set up Dean as the elder hero and Jack as his apprentice. Jack comes of Age by killing the gorgon. Dean receives a catastrophic head injury that releases the trapped Michael who possesses Rowena. Jack then in a frenzied and chaotic scene kills Michael.

The effect to my eye is that the entire thing was a set-up. Michael controlled monsters. He knew exactly who Dean was and communicated with him which indicated Michael was communicated to the gorgon to set up their eventual meeting. The gorgon did not poison Dean; instead he specifically injured his head by repeated blows. Again this implies knowledge of Michael's whereabouts and communication with Michael.

As for what happened next...The possessed Rowena seems to goad Jack specifically into attacking her when she could have just killed the Winchesters and him outright. The scene just did not feel authentic to me. Jack should not have been able to do what he did with his already depleted soul and not an ounce of additional power. He had already resurrected himself and healed Cas and tried to heal Dean. They do not think anything through.

Dabb says only 30% will like it. That sounds controversial. That sounds more cont6than someone dying. Someone dying is a given.

I am sure this is wrong. I am very angry that they summarily forgot am ongoing storyline. Thos Chuck the bad, mad writer is getting old and I dread Just Jack.

 

 

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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Res

Res

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I can't help but wondering... Is this really it? Speculation about whether they Cas was corrupted in Purgatory appears above. To wit, that monster future and the reminder of s 6 and Eve made me thing Chuck perhaps got Eve to mess with Cas or she did it on her own; see above. Dabb does love monsters and a hot mess.

Then I just cannot shake that the puppet master aspect, the focus on Dean's former friend owning a bar and having the archangel Michael be such a great host to Adam... maybe these are clues. Yeah. Call me stubborn. I cannot give up hope that this is all a terrible head injury come dream of Dean's who feels like the puppet of AU Michael. And that this is why he's been so ineffectual except for yelling. It explains why he slept in Purgatory. Why there were no monsters in Purgatory. Why he was just a spectator to so little whilst there.

It all leads back to Ouroboros which is the snake eating its tail and which was where the story abruptly ate it's own tale. Everything after that point has just felt off in a profound way. Is this all on Dean's head. Are terrible things happening while Dean is asleep and is AI Michael in charge.

IDK. Crazy ideas. Season 13 in its entirety was Dean's heroes journey and in Let the Good Times Roll, an episode which follows Aristotle's outlines for the perfect Greek tragedy pretty well, Dean falls tragically by saying yes to the psychotically murderous AU Michael.

Season 14 Ouroboros was also set up as a classic Greek heroic tale modeled after Greek story the hero Perseus killing the gorgon Medusa. It clearly set up Dean as the elder hero and Jack as his apprentice. Jack comes of Age by killing the gorgon. Dean receives a catastrophic head injury that releases the trapped Michael who possesses Rowena. Jack then in a frenzied and chaotic scene kills Michael.

The effect to my eye is that the entire thing was a set-up. Michael controlled monsters. He knew exactly who Dean was and communicated with him which indicated Michael was communicated to the gorgon to set up their eventual meeting. The gorgon did not poison Dean; instead he specifically injured his head by repeated blows. Again this implies knowledge of Michael's whereabouts and communication with Michael.

As for what happened next...The possessed Rowena seems to goad Jack specifically into attacking her when she could have just killed the Winchesters and him outright. The scene just did not feel authentic to me. Jack should not have been able to do what he did with his already depleted soul and not an ounce of additional power. He had already resurrected himself and healed Cas and tried to heal Dean. They do not think anything through.

Dabb says only 30% will like it. That sounds controversial. That sounds more cont6than someone dying. Someone dying is a given.

I am sure this is wrong. I am very angry that they summarily forgot am ongoing storyline. Thos Chuck the bad, mad writer is getting old and I dread Just Jack.

 

 

But Jack is going to restore the Winchesters' luck, dontcha know? They will be lost without their "son" (barf!), Jack.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

1 hour ago, Res said:

But Jack is going to restore the Winchesters' luck, dontcha know? They will be lost without their "son" (barf!), Jack.

I liked Jack when he was a plot device to explore the Winchesters maturity. 

If he should not have been able to kill Michael, steal his power and become as powerful as God based on what made sense... 

Yes canonically nephilim were more powerful than the Angels that created them however his grace was stolen and he was Empty like Cas in season 9. He was running on soul energy that was depleted. Then like Cas he steals grace. It should have been good for a bit before sputtering out. He should not have become God-like. And the spell the Russian did was before he died so it should not still have been in effect. It was all nonsense.

Now he died without his own grace and with a destroyed soul. How do they resurrect him. He has no soul. ONLY CHUCK CAN MAKE A SOUL. I know that Cas was resurrected after Jack woke him. Cas thinks Chuck did it. Maybe the Empty is a God level being. He is always coveted up. I am betting that he is Chuck's crazy twin brother and he can just reconstitute Jack like he did Cas. If that's the Cas then Jack doesn't need to be so super duper unless the Empty really does just like to sleep. Maybe the Empty created everything and is the silent type and Chuck took over. Who knows.

I really dislike Just Jack.

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mertensia

mertensia

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

So since this is the season of ticking things and guest stars off the SPN bucket list, they are going to Alaska.

(besides Hawaii) Are there any other states they actually haven't gone to yet?

Arizona, I think. 

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catrox14

catrox14

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Arizona, I think. 

 They've been to Flagstaff in their youth.  That's where Sam ran away, found a dog and lived on Funyons and Mr Pibb.  

I think maybe they haven't been to New Mexico.

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SueB

SueB

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10 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I think Florida was mentioned, but have they actually ever gone there?

 

Oh yeah.  "Mystery Spot" - where they relived a Tuesday for over 6 months....

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Oh yeah.  "Mystery Spot" - where they relived a Tuesday for over 6 months....

Well technically...  😁 They had a hundred Tuesdays (according to Sam) and then a day (or so) later, he figures out it's the Trickster. The six months was the time Sam spent on the road, hunting down the Trickster and taking out vamp nests all by himself.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

(edited)
10 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

So since this is the season of ticking things and guest stars off the SPN bucket list, they are going to Alaska.

(besides Hawaii) Are there any other states they actually haven't gone to yet?

This is up to S7 (from Tumblr via Google). No episodes in Louisiana or Arizona, but we know about Flagstaff, and I believe Dean mentions having gone to New Orleans on a job pre-pilot. ETA: and if they drove to Florida they had to at least travel through either Georgia or Alabama.

 

tumblr_m64qql2s1n1qcmx74o1_1280.png

Edited by gonzosgirrl
Louisiana and Georgia: not the same
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SueB

SueB

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Searching on the Superwiki, I found everywhere but Alabama, Hawaii, West Virginia and Virginia.  Arizona IS only the Flagstaff reference.  It's possible the they hit West Virginia with the Morton House (it's real location) but Ed's car plates are Wisonsin.   Shocked about Virginia and Alabama. 

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catrox14

catrox14

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is up to S7 (from Tumblr via Google). No episodes in Louisiana or Arizona, but we know about Flagstaff, and I believe Dean mentions having gone to New Orleans on a job pre-pilot. ETA: and if they drove to Florida they had to at least travel through either Georgia or Alabama.

 

tumblr_m64qql2s1n1qcmx74o1_1280.png

Dean and Sam were in Louisiana in s8 for Benny reasons. Dean and Sam have gone through Vermont and/or New Hampshire to get in and out of Maine when they each came out of Purgatory or does

If they went to Florida from Kansas they had to have gone through Alabama. Unless it's a thing like Themla and Louise wherein Loiuse couldn't/wouldn't go through Texas(?) to get to Mexico. But back then they were in hotels so it really depends on where they were before going there.

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

Searching on the Superwiki, I found everywhere but Alabama, Hawaii, West Virginia and Virginia.  Arizona IS only the Flagstaff reference.  It's possible the they hit West Virginia with the Morton House (it's real location) but Ed's car plates are Wisonsin.   Shocked about Virginia and Alabama. 

Unless you count the Grand Canyon derp in s8.

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S Cook Productions

S Cook Productions

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I gotta be honest. If this thing ends up with all three on a beach I will revolt. 

I would like to see them on a beach, that's what Dean has always wanted lol. However, if they are on a beach, and Cas lets the sun shine on his face and he is happy- then BOOM, the Empty!

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Jonesy

Jonesy

(edited)

With regards to Cas--it's Cas, they are just butching Cas up...more like old days.  Which is good.  Despite bumping heads he and Dean are fine--just bros bumping heads for a while...thru the years at time one is right, at others times the other...a bit gray overall.  In the end they will stay best buds.

About a happy ending--I think that can work...the boys keep trying to get off the hamster wheel of new threats season after season.  Defeating Chuck can free them of that.

Edited by Jakes
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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)

Cas is dead to me, at this point, but I am wondering if he's going to continue to be such an overall dick of a character, as he's been since the NougatBaby zapped him.

And I'm with Bobcatkitten, a complete happily ever after, with no death(s) involved, wouldn't work for me either-not on this show as it was written from the beginning, that is.

 

 

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PAForrest

PAForrest

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Cas is dead to me, at this point, but I am wondering if he's going to continue to be such an overall dick of a character, as he's been since the NougatBaby zapped him.

And I'm with Bobcatkitten, a complete happily ever after, with no death(s) involved, wouldn't work for me either-not on this show as it was written from the beginning, that is.

Well, I don't know that I'd hate a "peace when you are done" ending - in the right hands. But we don't have the right hands, so that ship has already sunk.

Besides, both Dabb and Singer have indicated pretty strongly that it won't be a super happy ending all the way around. It might be happy, or content, for one or two characters, but I have a strong feeling at least one of them is ugly dead. I'd love it to be cAsstiel, because like you he's already dead to me anyway. But it could be anyone.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

Cas has been ruined for me me since he left Dean and Sam unconscious on the ground and ran off to protect his nougat baby. Every choice he's made since then has been for Jack, even when it meant betraying the boys again and again. I truly hope that he's so happy to see Jack alive again that he immediately drops dead.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

On 1/28/2020 at 5:38 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Cas has been ruined for me me since he left Dean and Sam unconscious on the ground and ran off to protect his nougat baby. Every choice he's made since then has been for Jack, even when it meant betraying the boys again and again. I truly hope that he's so happy to see Jack alive again that he immediately drops dead.

Honestly Cas should be very happy and he should immediately die and be claimed by the Empty forever. 

Of course that would mean that the writers remember their ongoing plot points and follow through on them. 

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ahrtee

ahrtee

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Saw this on Misha's Instagram..

 

Is Cas digging a hole to make a Crossroads deal? This looks interesting at least

 

Except (a) angels have no souls to sell, and even a CRD would know that, and 

(b) Rowena is Queen of Hell so surely he could just go to her directly if he wants/needs some demon help?  And of course

(c) all the above would require someone to remember canon and/or the last few eps.

 

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Jonesy

Jonesy

I thought forever that the ending will be Jack's paradise world that Cas saw--it is looking like that even more to me.  I see some others are thinking that now.  And it popped in my head how it might happen--jibbing with Misha saying about the Cas ending that it's really, really sad plus Jared saying it'a version of peace for the boys...however they kill and replace Chuck with Jack,  I think the boys will become separate from Cas.

I'm thinking MAYBE the Universe changes and the boys either forget about Heaven and Hell and Monsters and CAS OR all non-humans are separated forever from humans.  Either way the sad thing for Cas is he's separated from the Winchesters.  I think the boys will not have to face monsters but humanity will be free of them--maybe some angels led by Cas will mop up stragglers.

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Jonesy

Jonesy

Also i'll defend Cas--I think it's fine if he and Dean bump heads OR if Dean and Sam bump heads...because I like all of them and just don't watch for one character.  None of them are Mary Sues and don't need to be kissed in the butt all the times.  They are all heroes and they are all complex.  That said Dean will always be my favorite even if he's not always right or perfect.

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7kstar

7kstar

15 hours ago, Jakes said:

Also i'll defend Cas--I think it's fine if he and Dean bump heads OR if Dean and Sam bump heads...because I like all of them and just don't watch for one character.  None of them are Mary Sues and don't need to be kissed in the butt all the times.  They are all heroes and they are all complex.  That said Dean will always be my favorite even if he's not always right or perfect.

I don't hate Cas.  I hate what the WRITERS have done with them in the last season the most and 14 is also an issue.  I have no problem with the character having flaws.  I prefer it.

I'm not in the I hate Jack camp.  I just don't care about Jack.  That is on the writing.  I did like Alex when he played the demon but the written story of Jack has failed for me.  Jack was the most interesting before he was born.  The Jack before birth and Jack after being born hasn't followed what they set up. 

But Jack and Sam do have some of the similar problems.  Every time they try to make them more complex, it backfires.  They just seem to get more selfish or it feeds their egos.  Not sure I'm saying this well.  Sometimes trying to describe my feelings fail.  I want to like the characters.  I want to be a fan of this last season...But the failings have been too high.

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SueB

SueB

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Didn't see this TV line Scoop posted in this thread:

Quote

 

Got a Supernatural two-parter for you! I’m really digging the “new” Amara. When can we expect to see her again, and will Dean be contacting her about the Chuck situation? –Gigi
Dean will be reaching out to her, showrunner Andrew Dabb tells TVLine affirms, “and we can expect to see her in a few months.”

Do you have any scoop on Supernatural‘s Sam and Eileen? I love them! –Elena
“I think the Sam/Eileen relationship will evolve, but this isn’t a case where Eileen’s going to end up in the back of the Impala, riding around with the guys,” showrunner Andrew Dabb says. “She’s an independent person, Sam’s an independent person…. So I think you’re going to see them reach kind of a status quo that makes both of them happy, but maybe not get a rom-com ending, if that makes sense.”

 

Yay! Amara!  I'm looking forward to that conversation between she and Dean.  
And Yay! Eileen!  I hope they have a torrid weekend every month or so.  Hey, she has needs!

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Icarus

Icarus

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Yay! Amara!  I'm looking forward to that conversation between she and Dean.  
And Yay! Eileen!  I hope they have a torrid weekend every month or so.  Hey, she has needs!

The Amara "thing" could be interesting, although I have my doubts but for me it is a total No No for the Eileen and Sam stuff, they just don't have any chemistry on screen IMO that is.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

1 minute ago, Icarus said:

The Amara "thing" could be interesting, although I have my doubts but for me it is a total No No for the Eileen and Sam stuff, they just don't have any chemistry on screen IMO that is.

My only thought is that Jared's slip at comic con isn't that far fetched.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

My only thought is that Jared's slip at comic con isn't that far fetched.

I don't see the how and why of Amara possessing Sam... unless it was to stop Sam from doing something stupid or to stop him from giving another passive-aggressive speech to Dean...??? The shoulder bro bond is over. Amara bonded with Dean because of the Mark and through him she learned about everything noble about humanity. She is all about Dean.

 

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Myrelle

Myrelle

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I don't see the how and why of Amara possessing Sam... unless it was to stop Sam from doing something stupid or to stop him from giving another passive-aggressive speech to Dean...??? The shoulder bro bond is over. Amara bonded with Dean because of the Mark and through him she learned about everything noble about humanity. She is all about Dean.

 

This is Dabbernatural in which canon doesn't exist-unless Dabb wants it to-then it does. 🙄

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

3 hours ago, Binns said:

I missed that- what did he say?

He named a few not-Sam scenarios that already hapoened aka soulless, demon blood etc in the "whatever happens at the end", including "if Amara possesses me". Which never happened and is WAY too specific to just throw it out randomely. So it must be something he was told for the Finale.

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7kstar

7kstar

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He named a few not-Sam scenarios that already hapoened aka soulless, demon blood etc in the "whatever happens at the end", including "if Amara possesses me". Which never happened and is WAY too specific to just throw it out randomely. So it must be something he was told for the Finale.

This would suck.  Dean and Amara should still have a connection.  I will hate it if they give this to Sam too.  I hope it won't go down as one of the worst finales ever, but this one really worries me as I would hate it.

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catrox14

catrox14

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know spoilers are, well, spoilery, but seriously - this group (the show, not us) cannot keep anything a surprise.

I really think they are doing it to get viewers for nostalgia sake considering the ratings are in the toilet.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really think they are doing it to get viewers for nostalgia sake considering the ratings are in the toilet.

I can't think of any way they could bring Uriel back that would make me want to watch.  

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7kstar

7kstar

8 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Looks like Uriel is coming back. I’m excited. He’s another “villain angel” that I used to love to hate. 

He was fun to hate but isn't he dead?  Oh wait, does death matter?

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know spoilers are, well, spoilery, but seriously - this group (the show, not us) cannot keep anything a surprise.

They have to slip it out, so the support fans will be all excited and talking about how awesome Dabb is...is it an ego trip?

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

But he is the funny one!

I think I would enjoy the old version but what will they do to him????

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

12 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Anyone can come out of The Empty now, apparently. 

Now this is an exaggeration... there are rules.

Chuck can snap his fingers and bring anyone backing he really wants to exert the effort. 

And Jack can wake up people in the Empty. He woke up Cas and Lucifer. It's unclear how exactly Cas ended up resurrected or reincorporate. It's possible Chuck helped or maybe the Empty helped. My pet theory is that the Empty is Chuck's twin brother which is why he is in the full body suit. Maybe Chuck has a split personality and the Empty was his cray cray half but now he's full on cray cray. Or they are twins.

Amara probably can too because she's stronger than Chuck.

 

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