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13 minutes ago, Res said:

I knew the minute he was allowed to eat pie he was a goner.

hahaha
Upbeat music, a dog, Sam cooking, domestic Laundrychesters, AND pie? More terrifying than any cold open.

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8 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Misha said in meet and greet that he was originally in the last episode in heaven - but as Jimmy Novak. 

Which means no freaking sense. 

 

3 hours ago, Binns said:

If I squint I can make this work, as Jimmy is in heaven and would be nice for him to get to know people. And Cas...well, in heaven, he doesn’t really need a vessel, does he? So he could be there the size of the Chrysler building with his 6 rainbow wings. Of course, he would need to figure something out to talk to Dean...

No more spoilers, but it looks like we are in for a lot of COVID-script spec...

A few things I'm trying to consider whilst squinting
- Whether or not (or if they were hoping) Misha himself is enough for his fans if he is not Castiel (probably not)
- Whether he would've just been another face in the crowd we didn't get, with no explanation, not even confirmed Jimmy, just to have Misha
- Whether it would've been played off as a second 'haha you THOUGHT' moment like Lucifer's phone call
- Whether Jimmy is supposed to give some kind of bouncing board for Dean re: Castiel's feelings for Dean with 0 expectations because he isn't Castiel, & if they share thoughts & stuff like Michael/Adam (he's been gone since s05 though right?)
- Whether even though he's still Jimmy, he's the one who has a physical connection with Castiel and can deliver messages from the celestial wavelength of intent to Dean (if Castiel is alive in this scenario)
- Whether anyone on the team thinks Castiel still needs absolution from Jimmy for what he did to that family
- Whether it relates to Claire (who is alive, not necessarily available to act, and wasn't really taken in by the Winchesters anyway -the others who did are not dead either)

Jimmy already got his ending when they said he was dead. He got his confirmed peaceful followup when Claire's mum died and they ended up together, where she could tell him what a great young lady Claire turned into. -and Castiel has been trying to make up for it since forever, bonded with Claire, and played into Hannah's own arc of letting her vessel go (even though there was nothing for him to do by then, Jimmy was dead). 
Really, the only legit reason I would see them put him there is to have Misha present in the finale in a way that they don't have to directly address the Castiel's-confession-elephant-in-the-room. 

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On 11/22/2020 at 10:38 AM, PAForrest said:

I honestly don't even believe they were "invited" to this pitch. I think the Js thought they'd have a chance to have some input - they literally talked about that after the announcement - and probably asked for the meeting. Since they were allowed no input at all - and that's really height of disrespect to the leads of a 15 year show - I have to assume Drabb used the opportunity to just tell them the broadstrokes of his not so grand finale.

There may have been some details, but would Drabb have told Jensen outright he was going to make his character look ridiculous in his death? Possibly. When Jensen says they were told take it or leave it, given the fact that Jared loved it and apparently didn't care that Jensen didn't, I suspect that line was directed solely at Jensen.

Would Jensen have been as upset as he was simply just to hear that Dean dies like days after it looked they won, regardless of how it happened? Yes, I really do, because it is a sucky ending for his character - finally free, except not you, Dean. Neener neener.

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

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11 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

He said they were handed the script.  Dabb and Co. didn't say "take it or leave it" but they made it clear that the J's weren't there to offer any input. 

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14 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

 

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

He said they were handed the script.  Dabb and Co. didn't say "take it or leave it" but they made it clear that the J's weren't there to offer any input. 

He did say exactly that in a recent interview. Whether he was using hyperbole for effect or not is up to the viewer. I will try to find it.

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1 minute ago, Cindy McLennan said:

Thank you, @gonzosgirrl and @Casseiopeia. I did see that interview. I guess I didn't take it as seriously (where those words are concerned) because he seemed to me to be trying to explain what he meant by it wasn't a brainstorming question.

Nevertheless, he did say it. I have never believed that words just come from nowhere. To me, his laugh suggested that it was pretty much it, in a nutshell.

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I think I was so focused on the fact that the writers had never met with Jensen and Jared before the start of a new season, that I didn't even take notice of it. I get it in the early years, when they were just pretty WB/CW meat that turned out to be talented and committed to the show. I don't get it after Kripke left. I really don't get it in the past 5-7 years.
 

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30 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah he clearly pointed out they had never met with the writers before and that the decisions were already made. He laughed but it was pointed. 

And he's brought it up too many time, in too many ways, to believe that he laughed it off and realized he was wrong, not them. No freaking way.

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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he's brought it up too many time, in too many ways, to believe that he laughed it off and realized he was wrong, not them. No freaking way.

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

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54 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

I mean, them dying together in a blaze of glory and a better Heaven scene would have gone down better for me. 

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6 hours ago, 7kstar said:

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

Same honestly I think I would have been good with a horror scenario.  Both brothers dying?  OK, maybe they'll both get brought back.  One brother being turned into a monster and the other one dying?  OK so one brother gets de-monstered and the other one gets brought back. (there are a variety of ways to bring these about) Pretty much any other scenario is fairly easily undone if they WANT to.  No matter how dark they are. This one is harder because Dean's death was so much before Sam's and you basically need to undo Sam's "happy ending" and get rid of his son, Faux Dean.  Now mind you I had ZERO issues with the idea of getting rid of Tony Stark's kid in Endgame and I think they should have reverted everything back to 5 years earlier rather than leaving the mess of people coming back 5 years later just so Tony could keep his kid and I honestly I have ZERO issues getting rid of Sam's son and "happy life" but you know certain sections of fandom are going to complain about that and we'll get poor woobie wittle Sam and his sacrifice, so that would be a pain.  

So I think right now, as I've mentioned in the other thread,  I've settled on, when Sam gets knocked out in the fight, HE is the one who goes into the coma and has the coma dreams and the rest of the episode after he's knocked out is his coma dream.  No Faux Dean son, no "normal life".  He just wakes up how ever many years are believable later(if it's relatively soon and they haven't changed that much it can be a few months, if it's years later and they've changed a lot, it can 5 years or whatever)

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12 hours ago, 7kstar said:

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

Kripke would have pulled out what was the original ending for season five - both guys in the pit, or in this situation, both guys dead one way or the other. Five was changed because that's what Gamble wanted and she was going to be showrunner in six - only to flame out quickly because apparently she didn't know how to balance a checkbook, among other problems.

But would both guys dying at the same time change anything about this stupid ending? No, I think Jensen just gave up because he was the one guy against everyone else.

And as it turned out, the one guy is the guy they should have listened to all along. The one guy was right.

It's become very noticeable that Jensen and Danneel have gone radio silent since the finale. The only thing Jensen posted the next day was a picture of himself in the barn with the rebar on IG - though I don't even think he linked it to his twitter, like he usually does when he posts pictures on IG. And that post had its signature Jensen sarcasm to it.

But Jensen still has a relationship with the WB, so he's not going to come out and say anything derogatory. He's never really overt with his complaints - he tries to couch them in sarcasm and subtle shade, but he's not going to come right out and say, "looks like I was right!" I doubt he's happy with the end result or the backlash to the episode - it's not what he wanted for his legacy on this show. But at the same time, he's got to be feeling a bit of vindication too. Again, they should have listened to The One Guy.

There's starting to be chatter on twitter that the CW may have had their fingers in the pie since the love confession in 18, which we know from Jensen himself there were lines in that one that were cut. Alex apparently said somewhere in the last few days that he did film a scene for 20, and that scene was cut. People who live in Vancouver who saw the photos Misha was posting during the time everyone was quarantining confirm that was Vancouver. And there were enough hints from Misha himself that he was in Canada - like the whole mail complaint, etc. If Alex filmed a scene, it's easy enough to believe Misha did too - and they were all cut. Felicia confirmed she was supposed to be in 20, and then not.*

*Though apparently Felicia recently said she didn't want to quarantine for one scene. But that begs the question why Dabb et. al. wouldn't reach out to some of the many Canadian actors who have appeared over the years.

Everything about the last two episodes, but especially 20, just don't fit with whatever momentum they were going for in 15 - badly done and timed as it was and always is. But as much as I dislike Andrew Dabb, I never ever pegged him for a closet Wincester. He doesn't like the guys that much - he's made that really clear during his tenure. So what the hell was that?

No, I'm starting to think not all the blame for 20 lies at Dabb's feet after all. I think it's likely the CW really did interfere with what was supposed to be Dabb's original finale. If that turns out to be true, it would be interesting to hear what that finale entailed and what they insisted get cut. I still think Jensen hated Dean's death - I think this was his objection, and that wouldn't have changed, unfortunately.

The finale doesn't fit the narrative at the end of 15 years - it feels honestly more like a season two or three finale for a show about the Winchesters that didn't get another season pick-up after that. It feels very regressive.

Bottom line, because it feels like a stand-alone outside of the overall narrative, it probably would be easy enough to coma it away, or something along those lines. But I certainly have no interest whatsoever in any kind of reboot that doesn't involve the Real Dean Winchester.

Edited by PAForrest
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I find it hard to believe Misha was in quarantine in Vancouver and not any part of any of the shenanigans with Jensen, Jared, Rob and Jake. Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't seem likely. And in the political zooms and show zooms that happened, but Jensen and Jared mentioned they were quarantined - I don't think Misha ever did. Sure, it could have been for secrecy's sake, for some big reveal in 19 or 20, but nothing felt that way to me. Jensen said Dean did respond to Cas and it was cut, but IMO he gave no indication that it was any kind of reciprocation from Dean. Why it was cut? Who knows - these are the same editors that gave us the marionette fight and Dean driving in the woods for twelve hours or so while Sam saved the day. Thing is now, Misha has shed so much gray on things that no matter what comes out later, barring the actual cut footage, people are going to believe whatever theories suit them.

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Starting off with the positive: I don't have all the links on me but after the finale there were fundraisers set up (out of spite lol) in pretty much every main characters name, Castiel's was for some LGBT thing, Dean's was mental health, Sam's is something to do with education (I think Eileens post was just a direct link to a deafness org because they didn't allow setting up your own little named bucket) plus others, even miracle the dog had a link to one of the SPCAs... and between them they've raised around $70k last I checked. Misha liked one of the tweets to do with the Castiel one.

***

On top of what you have said about Misha's whereabouts:

Another one of the bigger existing theories based on the numbers on the tweeted quote of the day boards and fed off of the overall quality of the finale whether you are a shipper or not, is that 11 scenes are completely missing from episode 20 as a way to explain all the montages and weirdness (which could also be put down to COVID restraints) (I didn't go check the count myself). I do think though, that if your finale is so bad that that many people could honestly believe you're missing 11 scenes you've messed up somewhere whether its true or not.

There was also a rumour that Mark P & Alex filmed their last scene together with Misha, and apparently the timelines don't line up (they were all in the bunker together in 15.18 though right?), so I think people were hoping for an empty rescue and/or a Heaven scene. Also noone knows whether Uriel was supposed to film now or was just visiting set when he took that photo with Castiel.

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

There's starting to be chatter on twitter that the CW may have had their fingers in the pie since the love confession in 18, which we know from Jensen himself there were lines in that one that were cut. Alex apparently said somewhere in the last few days that he did film a scene for 20, and that scene was cut. People who live in Vancouver who saw the photos Misha was posting during the time everyone was quarantining confirm that was Vancouver. And there were enough hints from Misha himself that he was in Canada - like the whole mail complaint, etc. If Alex filmed a scene, it's easy enough to believe Misha did too - and they were all cut. Felicia confirmed she was supposed to be in 20, and then not.*

(Disclaimer, I know absolutely no Spanish, also one of the accounts that spearheaded the hashtag is one I have seen vague-posting about set leaks and spoilers but never giving details other than to bait people)(I think the finale was a mess, but the jury is out on why).
The gist of the current explosion which built off of everything you were already getting at is: 

People were already suss of the confession scene because parts seem choppy, the tears aren't consistent, and there was a different clip of the sobbing that didn't make the ep used in the season trailer apparently.

Earlier today people were already sharing various versions of the confession scene trying to tease out the ADR Jensen had to do in Austin after they recorded the scene (like the extra sobbing & stuff) - for some unknown reason one of these clips had birds in the background (so like, probably a legit reason to need the ADR in the first place). They hilariously line up with the gaps between the vibrating sounds of the phone and stop when the credits start. 

THEN The latin american dub of 15.18 was shared on twitter and had Cass say "te amo" like (I Love love you) and Dean (verbally) replied "y yo a ti, Cass" (apparently "and I you, Cass"), over the part of the scene where we got "don't do this Cass" - and funnily enough the Spanish subtitles also still translated more or less to "don't do this Cass", not matching the words.
          - Note to the uninitiated: in Season 8 the latin american dub got the original "I love you" instead of "I need you" in the crypt scene as well; it really might just be a different marketing thing and within the freedom to move that they have with dubs.
The latin american dub has no bird sounds. 
After seeing the latin american dub people also started trying to convince themselves that even our version looks a bit off, and whether Dean could be saying something other than "don't do this Cass" (as in, asking if he actually said what was translated to spanish and maybe WE were the ones who dubbed it out), but tbh the only real definitive shape his lips make is over Cass so I think that's a lost cause. They also started picking apart the sequence in general like Jensen being super teary and then not, and Him falling towards the side Castiel seems to grab him from. 

Anyways: the point of that is that combined with the other already existing theories, there is a very large number of people who genuinely believe that the original version had a requited confession scene (which the actors have said was very ad libbed and so could have passed through the scripts to the cutting room floor) which was changed for us, but not picked up in time before it was sent around and the dubs were done. There's now #TheySilencedYou trending on twitter accusing the higher ups of CW interfering with the confession scene and the last couple of episodes. It got 30,000 in the first 5-6 hours by my count, and then doubled to over 70k tweets in the last 1-2 hours. 

Also Misha retweeted something totally random about "how to tell if your nuts are rancid" idk what that's about + everyone else's deafening silence (and who can really blame them either way), allows people to make of it what they will like you said. Oh and also they have dug up a post from August that Jensen liked about some cartoon having Disneys first bisexual character in it. They really flipped from calling him a h*mophobe to deciding he was in on a long-con quite quickly.

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I... don't even know what to say about all that. I think Jensen was pretty clear in his comments when he talked about him and Misha watching a fan reaction video, in that things were cut, but I got no impression at all that there was any returned confession. I can see that he may have said 'I love you, too' but there's no doubt in my mind it would also have included a 'like a brother/family' or 'not in the same way'. No doubt at all. And I think if Jensen knew Dean was supposed to have reciprocated, indeed did reciprocate, he would say so.

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I wish they wouldn't include Dean/Jensen in the TheySilencedYou thing. It can only backlash on him (and probably nobody else) if/when the facts come out, because short of him saying unequivocally yes, Dean loved Castiel romantically, he absolutely cannot win. Sigh.

ETA: One thing is good - Jensen said he had someone record that scene on his phone, so even if it never sees the light of day, there is irrefutable 'proof' out there of what they said before the cameras.

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At this point he's probably better off not saying anything. If people want to believe he's under some sort of NDA with the CW they will give him a pass on silence and lay the heat at CWs feet, and he can just walk away

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10 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

At this point he's probably better off not saying anything. If people want to believe he's under some sort of NDA with the CW they will give him a pass on silence and lay the heat at CWs feet, and he can just walk away

Seriously I hope he does that.  Jensen, don't feel the need to be honest or helpful for once and just let the CW take the heat.  He is OUT of this show, right now, he has a new job on a new network, he does NOT need to take the blame for them, one way or the other.  Take the win and say a non-commital thank you to everyone, and walk away.

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20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Seriously I hope he does that.  Jensen, don't feel the need to be honest or helpful for once and just let the CW take the heat.  He is OUT of this show, right now, he has a new job on a new network, he does NOT need to take the blame for them, one way or the other.  Take the win and say a non-commital thank you to everyone, and walk away.

Jensen can be quiet.  I think him staying off twitter is a good sign.  He has already made it clear that he question the ending and the last interview even pointed out clearly that he had zero input into the outcome of the script.  His meeting with them in LA was that this is the ending.  If you don't like it too bad and he made that clear using some sarcasm and humor.  I don't think he has gotten in a twitter war like Jared nor does he seem to need to defend himself. 

He gets to play I'm just the actor and I gave it my best shot.

How it would have been now can be blamed on covid.  But a studio would only push back on something they felt was crossing the line and would harm them in the long run.  At this point I don't care.  The misery is over and I'll create my own ending and ignore theirs.  But I'll give it time.  I would have rather seen the iconic closing the trunk together or them both dying together than the lame ending they created.

The studio did a push back on the 300 ep so I think they have only done it a few times.  I wish we had a better showrunner but alas we were stuck with Dabb and that will hurt him in the long run.

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1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Starting off with the positive: I don't have all the links on me but after the finale there were fundraisers set up (out of spite lol) in pretty much every main characters name, Castiel's was for some LGBT thing, Dean's was mental health, Sam's is something to do with education (I think Eileens post was just a direct link to a deafness org because they didn't allow setting up your own little named bucket) plus others, even miracle the dog had a link to one of the SPCAs... and between them they've raised around $70k last I checked. Misha liked one of the tweets to do with the Castiel one.

***

On top of what you have said about Misha's whereabouts:

Another one of the bigger existing theories based on the numbers on the tweeted quote of the day boards and fed off of the overall quality of the finale whether you are a shipper or not, is that 11 scenes are completely missing from episode 20 as a way to explain all the montages and weirdness (which could also be put down to COVID restraints) (I didn't go check the count myself). I do think though, that if your finale is so bad that that many people could honestly believe you're missing 11 scenes you've messed up somewhere whether its true or not.

There was also a rumour that Mark P & Alex filmed their last scene together with Misha, and apparently the timelines don't line up (they were all in the bunker together in 15.18 though right?), so I think people were hoping for an empty rescue and/or a Heaven scene. Also noone knows whether Uriel was supposed to film now or was just visiting set when he took that photo with Castiel.

(Disclaimer, I know absolutely no Spanish, also one of the accounts that spearheaded the hashtag is one I have seen vague-posting about set leaks and spoilers but never giving details other than to bait people)(I think the finale was a mess, but the jury is out on why).
The gist of the current explosion which built off of everything you were already getting at is: 

People were already suss of the confession scene because parts seem choppy, the tears aren't consistent, and there was a different clip of the sobbing that didn't make the ep used in the season trailer apparently.

Earlier today people were already sharing various versions of the confession scene trying to tease out the ADR Jensen had to do in Austin after they recorded the scene (like the extra sobbing & stuff) - for some unknown reason one of these clips had birds in the background (so like, probably a legit reason to need the ADR in the first place). They hilariously line up with the gaps between the vibrating sounds of the phone and stop when the credits start. 

THEN The latin american dub of 15.18 was shared on twitter and had Cass say "te amo" like (I Love love you) and Dean (verbally) replied "y yo a ti, Cass" (apparently "and I you, Cass"), over the part of the scene where we got "don't do this Cass" - and funnily enough the Spanish subtitles also still translated more or less to "don't do this Cass", not matching the words.
          - Note to the uninitiated: in Season 8 the latin american dub got the original "I love you" instead of "I need you" in the crypt scene as well; it really might just be a different marketing thing and within the freedom to move that they have with dubs.
The latin american dub has no bird sounds. 
After seeing the latin american dub people also started trying to convince themselves that even our version looks a bit off, and whether Dean could be saying something other than "don't do this Cass" (as in, asking if he actually said what was translated to spanish and maybe WE were the ones who dubbed it out), but tbh the only real definitive shape his lips make is over Cass so I think that's a lost cause. They also started picking apart the sequence in general like Jensen being super teary and then not, and Him falling towards the side Castiel seems to grab him from. 

Anyways: the point of that is that combined with the other already existing theories, there is a very large number of people who genuinely believe that the original version had a requited confession scene (which the actors have said was very ad libbed and so could have passed through the scripts to the cutting room floor) which was changed for us, but not picked up in time before it was sent around and the dubs were done. There's now #TheySilencedYou trending on twitter accusing the higher ups of CW interfering with the confession scene and the last couple of episodes. It got 30,000 in the first 5-6 hours by my count, and then doubled to over 70k tweets in the last 1-2 hours. 

Also Misha retweeted something totally random about "how to tell if your nuts are rancid" idk what that's about + everyone else's deafening silence (and who can really blame them either way), allows people to make of it what they will like you said. Oh and also they have dug up a post from August that Jensen liked about some cartoon having Disneys first bisexual character in it. They really flipped from calling him a h*mophobe to deciding he was in on a long-con quite quickly.

 

 

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wish they wouldn't include Dean/Jensen in the TheySilencedYou thing. It can only backlash on him (and probably nobody else) if/when the facts come out, because short of him saying unequivocally yes, Dean loved Castiel romantically, he absolutely cannot win. Sigh.

ETA: One thing is good - Jensen said he had someone record that scene on his phone, so even if it never sees the light of day, there is irrefutable 'proof' out there of what they said before the cameras.

Twitter is insane right now.

It's all out war between the hellers and the bronlies/wincesties.

And MC and Dabb are feeding it. 

Totally best for Jensen to stay quiet IMO, too.

And I truly wonder if he might have seen something like this coming and that's the real reason that he had someone record the scene as it was being filmed on his own phone.

I'm really glad that he has it, too.

That's our boy. 💝 🔮

 

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34 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

 

Twitter is insane right now.

It's all out war between the hellers and the bronlies/wincesties.

And MC and Dabb are feeding it. 

Totally best for Jensen to stay quiet IMO, too.

And I truly wonder if he might have seen something like this coming and that's the real reason that he had someone record the scene as it was being filmed on his own phone.

I'm really glad that he has it, too.

That's our boy. 💝 🔮

 

I hate, Hate, HATE  that this is what SPN is going to be remembered for; or that the ending (such as it is) has been tainted by fans fighting over what *they* wanted and not the boys themselves.  

I want Dean Winchester remembered for who he was and what he accomplished, not what others think he *should have* been, done or said.  

 

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7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

I want Dean Winchester remembered for who he was and what he accomplished,

 

Getting that across would have been the job of the Finale, though. Since that was a big far void, now it has given way to people fighting over if the empty air in the void is made out of cheese or spinach. Here is a clue: it's neither, it's just empty air.

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3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: One thing is good - Jensen said he had someone record that scene on his phone, so even if it never sees the light of day, there is irrefutable 'proof' out there of what they said before the cameras.

Yeah, that hashtag - wow, it's been trending all day. Between the episode backlash and this, I'm not sure this is what the CW was hoping for at the end of this 15 year journey.

I did find it really interesting that Jensen wanted someone to record on his own phone everything that was said and done in that scene. Probably it was because it was Misha's big emotional scene and they're good friends and he wanted it saved. But the way he talked about recording it, it also sounded like he knew it would get cut, for any number of reasons. So the fact that he has evidence of the entire scene can be either good or bad, depending on what you want to hear. I'm not sure he's going to share it with fans anytime soon, or ever. But if lines were cut, chances are they were Dean's. I think Castiel pretty much says it all - I'd find it hard to believe any of that was cut or went on even longer than it already did.

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Another one of the bigger existing theories based on the numbers on the tweeted quote of the day boards and fed off of the overall quality of the finale whether you are a shipper or not, is that 11 scenes are completely missing from episode 20 as a way to explain all the montages and weirdness (which could also be put down to COVID restraints) (I didn't go check the count myself). I do think though, that if your finale is so bad that that many people could honestly believe you're missing 11 scenes you've messed up somewhere whether its true or not.

There was also a rumour that Mark P & Alex filmed their last scene together with Misha...

WRT to what Pellegrino said, I honestly think that was just a mistake his part. His last scene was in the bunker with Alex and Jake, playing Jack and Michael. I think it's very likely he mixed up Michael and Castiel as the other angel who was there. Probably as simple as that.

As for missing scenes, I've been told that the minute count for the episode is super short - much shorter than the usual 42 or so minutes they run. If that's the case, and I frankly don't doubt it, not with all that montage padding, then yes, it's obvious a lot of stuff was cut. And it's also obvious stuff was cut from Dean's side of the story. The guy dies, you don't see him again for 10 minutes, he shows up, tosses off a handful of lines with Bobby, then spends the rest of his part of the episode being unseen driving the car from a drone. If you didn't know Jensen drove the car, you could just as easily assume it was a stunt driver. Jensen got screwed nine ways to Sunday with this script - no pun intended. Dabb & Co. had f'ing months to figure out more do to here - they didn't bother.

OR the CW continued to demand changes, and it came down to the wire and Dabb said, fuck it, cut it all and throw in an extra meaningless montage. Neither scenario is a good one. The editing is terrible in this episode, especially from this point. This is why Dean's "heaven" is a failure - we see no peace and no happiness here because nothing at all is done with it.

Now, I really don't consider Dabb to be a deep writer, as you know - but someone pointed out to me today that the monsters in this episode, who were supposed to be run of the mill vamps, don't react that way at all. What do they do - they slit throats and cut out tongues. In other words, they silence their victims. Considering the hashtag that is trending today, IF Dabb was a deeper writer than I normally consider him to be, that would sure look like a message to the CW. Most likely it's just a strange coincidence - but the changes done to the vampires in this episode are weird.

And like I said, the man is not a huge brothers fan - he's always been more interested in his OCs. He certainly never indicated he ever landed on the Wincest side of the pond. Yet this episode is not only Wincest, it's seriously queer, especially when you view it from Sam's side of the storyline. If Dabb was angry at all about being told to remove any hint of Destiel or even as much as just having Cas in the episode for a final "Hello Dean" cameo, it could look like the man said, 'Mr. Pedowitz, you want brothers, oh I'll give you as queer and incestuous a relationship as you'll ever see on television, and you won't even know what you're looking at.'

Again, the guy would have to be deeper than I have ever seen him be the entire time he's been showrunner to be sending that message. But if he was someone else, and if there was a fight with the network, a lot of stuff could look super suspicious in this episode.

Edited by PAForrest
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54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And sadly, I think both of them (MC and Badd) are sitting back and loving it. Any attention is good attention if you're needy enough.

I doubt Dabb is loving it. 

I think he made a big mistake.

But yeah, this kind of stuff has become MC's bread and butter, from what I've seen and IMO.

Edited by Myrelle
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2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I doubt Dabb is loving it. 

I think he made a big mistake.

But yeah, this kind of stuff has become MC's bread and butter, from what I've seen and IMO.

He'd be loving it if he really did try to get Destiel in it and had his hands tied, even after approving a script and shooting it (if the theories can be believed). He's a hero and a martyr to the Destiel people, and an actual hero to the Sam/Wincest/Bronlie people (because lets face it, they are really just Sam fans - Dean is only as valuable to the ship as his praise/worship of his brother is at any given moment).

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36 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

As for missing scenes, I've been told that the minute count for the episode is super short - much shorter than the usual 42 or so minutes they run.

It's 41:40 (I clipped it for my own collection), which is about par for any hour long episode, give or take 30 seconds. There is almost always time wasted with the opening montage, so I don't think this is any different than normal. Of course they could have padded the driving scenes to make up for any cuts in the finale, but who knows for sure.

36 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I did find it really interesting that Jensen wanted someone to record on his own phone everything that was said and done in that scene.

He did say they took pics and video with his phone. Hopefully the pics didn't interfere with any of the dialogue - not that I think it will ever see the light of day publicly.

 

ETA: Yeah, there's no way this ends badly for Jensen. 😕

 

Screenshot 2020-11-25 160553.png

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's 41:40 (I clipped it for my own collection), which is about par for any hour long episode, give or take 30 seconds. There is almost always time wasted with the opening montage, so I don't think this is any different than normal. Of course they could have padded the driving scenes to make up for any cuts in the finale, but who knows for sure.

He did say they took pics and video with his phone. Hopefully the pics didn't interfere with any of the dialogue - not that I think it will ever see the light of day publicly.

 

ETA: Yeah, there's no way this ends badly for Jensen. 😕

 

Screenshot 2020-11-25 160553.png

Hopefully, everyone will move on sooner rather than later.

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28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Hopefully, everyone will move on sooner rather than later.

When does the next season of the Boys premerie?

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9 minutes ago, Res said:

When does the next season of the Boys premerie?

It could be only in 2022 so a long while. But, I mean, people on social media will surely move on to something else way before that. Now the Finale (and the horror) is still relatively fresh but I think within a month or so the worst of it will die down.

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This all makes me want to cry more than the finale did. I hope the cowards behind it all (aka Badd & Company) stand up and answer if the media gets involved beyond this. I won't hold my breath though. I can easily see the  &^%$& sitting in his mother's basement getting off to all this attention.

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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This whole situation is a huge mess and sadly, I can pinpoint who the scapegoat is going to end up being.

Oh, NO. 

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3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's 41:40 (I clipped it for my own collection), which is about par for any hour long episode, give or take 30 seconds. There is almost always time wasted with the opening montage, so I don't think this is any different than normal. Of course they could have padded the driving scenes to make up for any cuts in the finale, but who knows for sure.

Thanks for the confirmation. I think it was actual content time this person was referring to? I don't know, I haven't watched it again and I still don't know if or when that will happen. The whole driving montage is obvious padding, I assumed that the first time around.

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5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Again, the guy would have to be deeper than I have ever seen him be the entire time he's been showrunner to be sending that message. But if he was someone else, and if there was a fight with the network, a lot of stuff could look super suspicious in this episode.

haha the age old "the writers arent good enough to pull that off" me too - and I really cant picture Singer caring that much

My other issue with this theory is that a lot of the "subtle messages" would have had to be part of the episode anyway, preemptively. IF its even remotely true, and say they chose tongue-stealing vampires because if more scenes made it through then yay the Winchesters beat them, and if it didn't oh no they've been silenced...There is an expectation of meddling there. Which means they rolled the dice on the finale geing good, or put it in the position where there wasnt enough time to 'fix' it. Having that scene and then only having Sam mention Castiel once in passing afterwards? weird as hell. But I cant get behind the idea because it implies they knew it wasn't going to make it, and they dug themselves a hole in 15.18 anyway and/or did a crap job on purpose. 

Even if one day we get more info, they fumbled the finale in my books regardless.

Edited by PinkChicken

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ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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