S05.E01: Episode One

[lottiedottie]

The weird jumps in time really bug me. Having to believe that Gillingham is *still* chasing Mary after a year plus? 

 

Did anyone else get the impression from the Anna/Bates scene at the table talking about children that he was kind of complaining that they weren't doing it enough? I was only sort of paying attention so I'm not sure I got that right.

 

Sarah Bunting. Ugh. Looks like she'll be sticking around to tutor Daisy in math.

[MaryHedwig]

Did anyone else get the impression from the Anna/Bates scene at the table talking about children that he was kind of complaining that they weren't doing it enough? I was only sort of paying attention so I'm not sure I got that right.

That is exactly how I read it.

[helenamonster]

Ain't got no more feels for Edith after she took the baby away from her poor adopive family in Switzerland. Maybe I'm overlaying seeing a friend go through the anguish of adoping a baby for a year only to have her mother do a take-back at the last possible second, but that is seriously a horrid thing to do. Obviously she's Marigold's mother and that's some very serious emotion, but after a throwaway line from The Aunt Who Fixes Everything, they were never mentioned again. Marigold just appeared in England.

 

I'd feel differently if the family had to be coaxed into taking Marigold, but I got the impression that she was very much wanted and the family was carefully selected. In any event, the setup from last season seemed to suggest at least a couple episodes of Edith wrangling to bring the child back.

 

This is how I've felt about it as well, having known several people who have gone through adoption troubles. Little Marigold has been passed around like a hot potato, and I dread the scene where Edith swans in and takes her away from the Drewes forever (I'm unspoiled, but we all know this is happening).

 

It just sucks because up until the very end of the last season I've loved and rooted for Edith. The only way (for me) that she can get out of this without totally ruining herself in my eyes is by letting the Drewes raise Marigold as their own and leaving them all alone. But this is television so that's not going to happen.

[pbutler111]

I think you got the situation with Edith and Drewe backwards. Edith asked Drewe if he'd come up with any ideas, and it's Drewe who said that Edith would start showing an interest in Marigold. Right?

[Ripley68]

Mary inherited Downton from Matthew - he did not pass it down to George.  Or maybe she only got half - but she  has means in her own right. This is why her father has to work with her...not because he wants to, though he finally came around to it.  Mary and Gillingham were friends when they were little, so there is a history between them.  I like them together.  Last night it was pretty much stated that Blake was out of the picture - seems like for a while now.

[SilverShadow]

Mary can't technically inherit Downton IIRC. My understanding is the Estate (meaning the house and the lands) is entailed and still belongs to her Dad and will automatically pass to George as the next male heir when he dies. She can have Matthew's money (which is necessary to run the Estate) but it's not quite the same thing. And of course she can't have the title on her own merits. She would have been Countess when Matthew inherited. But now as soon as Lord Grantham does, little George becomes Earl of Grantham and I guess Mary is automatically the Dowager Countess, however I'm not entirely sure. Amusingly if Lord Grantham died before his mother and Matthew had been alive, I think the current Dowager would have lost her title and Isobel would've gotten it.

Edited January 6, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Avaleigh]

Mary won't be a Dowager Countess because Matthew died before he could inherit the title and she can't be the Countess of Grantham in her own right. If Mary wants a title apart from her courtesy one she's going to have to marry again.

 

I also thought last season that Robert made it seem like Mary wouldn't be able to do all that much with her portion of Downton if she wanted. Doesn't he have a line to that effect?

 

Lady "Duckface" Anstruther and her lines were among my favorites in this episode. Her description of her car supposedly breaking down and her line about how getting an "early release" was one of the advantages in having an older husband--too funny. I like it when the dinner parties have fun guests like her especially over someone like Sarah Bunting. 

[purplemonkey]

Yeah, Gillingham is hot. I would totally. Then again, I'm not Mary.

So, why does Rose not have suitors now, after making the most awesome debut ever? She's doing lame stuff around town like an old maid would.

[Empressv]

Re: Hatgate. Lady Mary's announcement that she was going upstairs to take off her hat has apparently caused a lot of Internet/reviewer merriment. As a former fashion reporter, I must defend her. Unlike now, women historically couldn't just reach up and take their hats off because ladies' hats were anchored in place by long hatpins (the kind used by at least one murderer in an Agatha Christie story), which took forever to put in place properly. Once a woman had her hat on, it was considered part of her ensemble and didn't come off until she returned home and she -- or in Mary's case, her maid -- could take ten or fifteen minutes (or more) to get all the pins out and redo her hair. BTW, this is why women don't have to take off their hats for the National Anthem in the United States or when going indoors -- way back when those rules were written, women simply could not take off their hats in public without a great deal of trouble. IMO, Mary was simply signalling that she would be unavailable for the next half hour or so and intended to stay in for a while.

[Pallas]

Amusingly if Lord Grantham died before his mother and Matthew had been alive, I think the current Dowager would have lost her title and Isobel would've gotten it.

 

That would be rich, but not possible.  Isobel was never married to an Earl of Grantham, so she would not be styled Dowager Countess, even as the widowed mother of a current Earl.  

 

And here's a wrinkle: a Dowager (Title) must not only be the widow of a former (Title), but mother, stepmother or grandmother to the heir.  So had Robert died, Cora and Violet survived him and Matthew succeeded, neither Violet nor Cora would have been styled the Dowager Countess, because the heir was not a direct descendant of either of their husbands.  But now that George -- Robert's grandson -- will succeed Robert, Cora will assume the title of Dowager Countess upon George's succession, whether or not Violet is still alive.  

 

I doubt that Bates killed Greene, but where was Cora on the morning after George was born?  

[Llywela]

I think you got the situation with Edith and Drewe backwards. Edith asked Drewe if he'd come up with any ideas, and it's Drewe who said that Edith would start showing an interest in Marigold. Right?

He said that only because Edith already couldn't keep away from the house, and it was starting to look extremely odd - this rich lady from the big house suddenly becoming obsessed with visiting his family at all hours on flimsy pretexts and fawning all over the baby girl while pretty much ignoring everyone else. He simply came up with a slightly more plausible excuse for her to carry on doing what she was already doing, since she clearly couldn't make herself behave in a more rational and appropriate manner - an excuse he hoped his wife might accept as worth the effort, knowing that Edith's visits were disrupting her household routine and unnerving her.

[Lillybee]

I love the character of Daisy. I think that the poor thing became a scullery maid before she was twelve, which happened in that time period and probably didn't go past the fifth grade in education. By sheer determination, the girl learned to cook and now is assistant cook.

As a result of her marriage that she was basically forced into, she will inherit a nice farm. So she wants to learn bookkeeping for that.

I do wish someone would tell her, that since she is a cook, she knows fractions and is probably better at math than most of the people around her. I think that Mrs Padmore and Carson should be encourgaging her to be all that she can be.

[madam magpie]

So Edith is just supposed to walk away from a baby she wants but can't keep due to the dictates of a society that basically sees and treats them both as nothing? But it's only the Drewes and the unknown Swiss couple who are deserving of empathy...because...? Edith has basically had her child stolen from her by custom. She didn't give her baby up because she didn't want her; she had little choice. Not only for her own reputation, but for that of her bastard daughter, who would have been shunned and mistreated.

Which brings me to the same question I had when reading The Scarlet Letter: Why don't these "fallen" women just lie? If Gregson is dead, why not claim they married in secret? Surely the embarrassment over an elopement would die down eventually. It's not like Edith is going to amount to anything in the noble class anyway; she's a second-born daughter. So lie and keep your baby. Her parents wouldn't even have to know really.

I adore Mary. The bitchier, the better. Here's hoping she can track down a diaphragm or something. We don't need any more surprise babies.

Go, Daisy, go!

Edited January 6, 2015 by madam magpie

[saki]

Madam Magpie - the secret marriage thing would really not work for Edith for a few reasons but, mostly, that marriages are a matter of public record, it would not be at all difficult for someone to find out that it hadn't happened and, in any case, Gregson was married already to someone else and so it would be even easier for someone to figure out that it was a lie.

 

I feel for everyone in this situation - Edith, definitely, but also the Swiss couple and the Drewes.  I think it's worth bearing in mind that, at the time (and indeed until fairly recently), we didn't know that much about attachment and early childhood.  Edith also grew up in a household where babies were really not raised by their mothers. George and Sybbie are probably far more attached to their nanny than they are to Mary and Tom but that's not something that's considered of much importance.

[heebiejeebie]

That would be rich, but not possible.  Isobel was never married to an Earl of Grantham, so she would not be styled Dowager Countess, even as the widowed mother of a current Earl.  

 

And here's a wrinkle: a Dowager (Title) must not only be the widow of a former (Title), but mother, stepmother or grandmother to the heir.  So had Robert died, Cora and Violet survived him and Matthew succeeded, neither Violet nor Cora would have been styled the Dowager Countess, because the heir was not a direct descendant of either of their husbands.  But now that George -- Robert's grandson -- will succeed Robert, Cora will assume the title of Dowager Countess upon George's succession, whether or not Violet is still alive.  

 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree and would be curious to where you get that from as I might have labored under incorrect form for some time.  However I have seen more than one reference in Burkes and Debrett both to the courtesy of Dowager extending to 1. any woman who enjoyed the marital title.  Meaning you did not have to be the mother of the next title holder.  Plenty of childless widows enjoyed the usage of "Dowager"  ____ and were referred to as such in press and court usage.  2. There are references to dueling Dowagers who hated each other.  Dueling in that both could use the title being widows to successive holders of that title.  Many times brothers and uncles and sons left widows in their wake as the title tried but failed to pass down in a direct line more than one generation.  When it mattered socially there tended to be one more "accepted" dowager.  Usually the one who had been married to the one who held the title the farthest back.  But there have been amusing instances of both showing up for a social event (like letting the wrong "dowager" into the outer royal enclosure at Derby).

 

In any case historically there are references to Dowagers being childless widows and more than one to a title living at the same time.  When Robert dies, and George is married, if Cora survives she can use the title Dowager Countess of Grantham.  Even if Violet is still living and uses the title as well.  It is automatic.  No matter how confusing that may be.  Most likely just to keep things civil, Cora would be styled "Lady Grantham" if George had a countess and Violet was alive.  But she could be and should be introduced as Cora Dowager Countess of Grantham even if Violet was introduced prior.  Or after.  I'm not a 100% on who gets to enter the dining room first.  The relict of the man who held it first or most recent. 

 

I feel for Edith's original situation.  Though birth control was known of by that time and the man was married no matter how they tried to "justify" it.  I do not find Edith sympathetic having taken the child away from her adoptive family and then mope around her day after day.  It is not an argument about what is right, it is just how I feel.  Personally if Edith had gone up in smoke I would have been relieved.  Instead I have to sit through episode after episode of Fellowes contrived plotting and drama of her maybe getting "caught" and how that will fall out.   Watching Fellowes spend yet another season of using the character as his emotional punching bag is weary and annoying.  The brief surge Edith had when she was attempting to be a career woman was refreshing and interesting.  Of course she had to trip over a dick and fall flat on her face.

[Constantinople]

So Edith is just supposed to walk away from a baby she wants but can't keep due to the dictates of a society that basically sees and treats them both as nothing? But it's only the Drewes and the unknown Swiss couple who are deserving of empathy...because...? Edith has basically had her child stolen from her by custom. She didn't give her baby up because she didn't want her; she had little choice. Not only for her own reputation, but for that of her bastard daughter, who would have been shunned and mistreated.

Which brings me to the same question I had when reading The Scarlet Letter: Why don't these "fallen" women just lie? If Gregson is dead, why not claim they married in secret?

Gregson's wife is still alive.

[Andorra]

I don't think we must be too sympathetic to the poor Schroeder family. Edith nursed her Baby for 4 months and had only just given it to the Schroeders before the CS of series 4 started. Ivy mentioned that she just came back (looking more tired than before she went to Switzerland) and Edith talked about nursing her Baby because it was considered better for the child. At the end of the CS she went to get her daughter back. So even though it was probably hard for the family, it's not as if the Baby had been with them for months!

 

The Drewe situation is much more severe IMO.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Andorra

[teddysmom]

Major kudos to Tara for the recap of this episode.

 

I read it yesterday, having missed about 20 minutes in the middle of the episode.  I was LMAO at the recap when Mary told Gillingham "I love you...in my cold unloving way" ( or whatever she said).  I thought it was Tara just being snarky and hilarious, had NO IDEA it was the actual dialogue from the show.  

 

I love how Mary could bone every guy in the county, and all she does is kill them with her Vagina of Death, and Edith gets the first timer's bad luck. 

 

Maybe Tony should be happy Mary hasn't consented, she's lengthened his life by at least a couple years. 

 

In the previews Robert is yelling at someone to "get out of his house forever".   I assume it's either Tom or Ms Bunting, or Edith.  Or his financial adviser telling him to stop trusting that Ponzi guy. 

[Avaleigh]

I do not find Edith sympathetic having taken the child away from her adoptive family and then mope around her day after day.

 

I have to agree. Seeing this episode I feel like Edith isn't handling the situation well at all. Obviously it's a terrible situation no matter what but I feel like there's something so clumsy about her approach to all of this that I find watching her scenes to be terribly frustrating. Even if the Schroeder family only had Marigold for say six weeks they still thought that this was going to be a lifelong commitment so I think that to have the child taken back had to have been hard on them emotionally.

 

Gregson's wife is still alive.

 

Did Edith ever mention to Violet or Rosamund last season that Gregson had a wife or is this only information that Matthew found out back in the Christmas Special of season 3?

 

In any case historically there are references to Dowagers being childless widows and more than one to a title living at the same time.  When Robert dies, and George is married, if Cora survives she can use the title Dowager Countess of Grantham.  Even if Violet is still living and uses the title as well.  It is automatic.  No matter how confusing that may be.  Most likely just to keep things civil, Cora would be styled "Lady Grantham" if George had a countess and Violet was alive.  But she could be and should be introduced as Cora Dowager Countess of Grantham even if Violet was introduced prior.  Or after.  I'm not a 100% on who gets to enter the dining room first.  The relict of the man who held it first or most recent.

 

If Matthew had lived and Mary had become the Countess while Violet was still alive, my guess about entering first/being announced first would be that it would go Mary first followed by Cora and then Violet. 

I've never read anything about childless widows of peers not being allowed to be styled as "Dowager" so I assumed Pallas was pointing out another of the many little nuances that go along with the British peerage that the average (American) person like myself wouldn't necessarily know about. For a real life comparison, I looked up Raine Spencer to see how she's addressed and even though she didn't have any children with the eighth Earl Spencer she is still entitled to the style of "The Rt. Hon. The Dowager Countess Spencer". At the same time Raine, like many vain modern dowagers, seems to have preferred to simply be addressed as Countess Spencer/Lady Spencer dropping the Dowager part altogether. (Although at 85 I have to think that these days perhaps she's mellowed a bit from back when she was sensitive to having attained "dowager" status.)

[ZoloftBlob]

Did Edith ever mention to Violet or Rosamund last season that Gregson had a wife or is this only information that Matthew found out back in the Christmas Special of season 3?

 

As far as the show goes, only Matthew ever seems to have known this.

 

As far as reality should bear out - one would think Michael had *some* arrangements in place for his insane wife.

[RedHawk]

Possibly the best moment of the episode was Sybbie coming in and calling Robert "Donk."

 

 

It's so good that I can't imagine Fellows actually writing it. Perhaps the little actress actually called the actor (or someone on set) by that name and the cast loved it! I certainly do.

[Zahdii]

Would the adoptive family know who the birth mother was?  I thought that the whole point of going to another country with a private clinic that specialized in such matters was for privacy, meaning that once the baby was handed over, the family knew nothing except that the mother wanted to place her child for adoption.  I also somehow thought that the family had other children, and that there would be a stipend attached to the baby to cover basic costs.

 

I envisioned Edith going to the clinic, and perusing folders of potential adoptive parents to choose who looked the best 'on paper', while trusting that the staff had checked out the potential families thoroughly.  I assumed that the birth mother, if she were of a high status like Edith, would know the particulars of the adoptive family so she could discretely keep tabs on the child after handing the child over.  While there were undoubtedly some women who didn't want to know anything about the adoptive family, some would, and if they found out later that the family was mistreating the child they could put the word out in that strange underworld that women in a 'sensitive situation' use to find the best way to handle an awkward pregnancy.  It's to the clinic's benefit to make sure that all children are placed in good homes to avoid a bad reputation, because human nature being what it is, I have the feeling that there were a lot of women who took off for a lengthy period of time to 'visit friends', 'improve their French', or 'tour the continent'.

 

What I'm more surprised at is that the clinic would have a woman nurse a baby for months before handing it off for adoption.  Surely someone would realize that the birth mother would bond with the child, and that could lead to problems later.  Really, there were such things as wet nurses back then, and goats milk is a good substitute for mothers milk (knew a woman who couldn't nurse, her baby couldn't tolerate formula, and goats milk did the trick).

[teddysmom]

Possibly the best moment of the episode was Sybbie coming in and calling Robert "Donk.

 

 

I would have loved if somebody would have pointed out to Robert, "oh that's just her cute way of calling you a jackass". 

[CeeBeeGee]

At least they didn't make poor Edith burn down the ENTIRE house. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a plot introduced which allows every other character to just walk by and punch her.

I literally laughed out loud at this. They really seem to have it in for her! I happen to adore Edith (I have a fondness for middle sisters and loved Jan Brady as well) and if JF were any kind of writer, at some point Edith would finally lose her shit and throw Pamuk in Mary's face. THAT would shut her up.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I read it yesterday, having missed about 20 minutes in the middle of the episode.  I was LMAO at the recap when Mary told Gillingham "I love you...in my cold unloving way" ( or whatever she said).  I thought it was Tara just being snarky and hilarious, had NO IDEA it was the actual dialogue from the show.

I know, I really laughed at that line and loved Mary's self-awareness.  But really, that should tell both of them that they already know, after this long quasi-courtship or whatever it is, they aren't clicking the way Mary wants.  Somebody mentioned it upthread, she went all hot for Pamuk immediately, and took a little longer to warm up to Matthew, then got pretty jazzed.  This Tony guy ain't in that league. The trip they're cooking up is just going to cause some trouble, or maybe stir up some info about Greene.

[blackwing]

I've never cared for Edith, and I can't really bring myself to feel that sorry for her.  If it is accepted that she can't raise the baby as her own due to social customs and morality, then she would have been better off just letting the baby be adopted into the good home in Switzerland.  Instead, what she is doing now is only going to cause problems.  The only way this all works out is if Drewe leaves his wife or she dies and Edith and Drewe get married.  Mrs. Drewe is suspicious as to why Edith is always around.  Edith seemed surprised when Drewe figured out she was the birth mother.  If she was truly surprised that he figured it out, then she is even stupider than I had originally thought.  She is taking an unnatural interest in the child of one of the family's tenants.  It's so obvious she might as well announce it to the world.  If she simply just cared about children, why hasn't she taken any interest in the couple's other two children?  She didn't even acknowledge them, she only holds Marigold and lavishes attention on Marigold.

[teddysmom]

This Tony guy ain't in that league.

 

Whatever happened to the other guy from last season?  Blake, was it?  The one that worked for the gov't and Mary was mean to him til Tony told her the guy was loaded. I liked him better.  Plus wasn't he super cute with George? 

 

The other thing I laffed at was poor Molesley trying to wash that die out of his hair.  My stylist put a glaze on my hair a few weeks ago and it was almost burgundy which I did not want at all,  and I spent a weekend doing the same thing with a bottle of dish soap.  At least my boss didn't ask me if I was Spanish or Italian, or tell me I couldn't come to work til I washed it out.  I feel ya Molesley. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by teddysmom

[madam magpie]

Madam Magpie - the secret marriage thing would really not work for Edith for a few reasons but, mostly, that marriages are a matter of public record, it would not be at all difficult for someone to find out that it hadn't happened and, in any case, Gregson was married already to someone else and so it would be even easier for someone to figure out that it was a lie.

 

I don't know...it's 1924. I realize Edith is part of the noble class, but people were born without birth certificates and married without documents all the time back then. It seems to me that if you go to the continent, stay a year or two, and return with a baby saying you'd gotten married and your husband had been killed, you could pull it off. Maybe Gregson's position would make it more difficult to hide a crazy wife, so...OK. Make up another guy. It's surprising to me now what people will just believe, and this show is taking place long before cynicism, the Internet, Facebook, etc. Some people might question, but most people would just accept whatever story Edith gave if she stuck by it.

 

Part of the issue for Edith, of course, would be that she likely buys into the "slutty unwed mother" nonsense, so she herself probably feels humiliated and unworthy of being a parent and all that. I'm looking at this through the eyes of a 21st century liberal, so I see no shame. But Edith would. That might be why she wouldn't concoct a story that let her keep her baby. I do get that. But she's lying now. It seems to me there are more creative lies that would also give her more of what she wants. She could have even just said she'd gone to Europe for a bit and "adopted" a baby whose parents were killed. Who was the celebrity that did that in the 1940s? Loretta Young, maybe? She got pregnant by Clark Gable, went to Europe, and miraculously returned with an "adopted" daughter. No one really believed her and it was America, not Britain, and she wasn't part of any aristocracy, but still. Even Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre returns from Europe with Estelle--legally she's his ward, but the implication is that she's his illegitimate daughter. It could be done.

Edited January 6, 2015 by madam magpie

[ElleBee]

I noticed that most of the scenes were about a minute or less, I suppose to fit in all of the characters, but it felt really choppy.  

 

I found that kind of distracting too. The actors also seemed to be talking more quickly than they used to, like they were desperate to fit it all in.

 

One story line I was looking forward to, which seems to have been dropped, was the budding romance between Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes. They seem to have reverted back to best buds in the time that's passed.

[jnymph]

.  If she simply just cared about children, why hasn't she taken any interest in the couple's other two children?  She didn't even acknowledge them, she only holds Marigold and lavishes attention on Marigold.

I have to admit, I laughed when the other children were sitting there with looks on their faces like "What are we? Chopped liver?"   I realize I'm a horrible person.

 

Marigold?  What an awful name, after a stinky flower ! 

 

 

 

One story line I was looking forward to, which seems to have been dropped, was the budding romance between Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes. They seem to have reverted back to best buds in the time that's passed.

This was highly disappointing to me, as well.  

 

I think DA misses the presence of Matthew so much that it's painful. 

[Calamity Jane]

I suddenly realized last night how profoundly indifferent I am to what happens to any of these people.  I think I'm done, or maybe I'll watch it all in one shot later.  Just can't summon up a single ounce of give-a-flip for any of them.  :-(

[MyAimIsTrue]

One story line I was looking forward to, which seems to have been dropped, was the budding romance between Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes. They seem to have reverted back to best buds in the time that's passed.

 

Yes, I was hoping to see (or hear) more about the budding romance as well.  And perhaps it was just me after having not seen the show in almost a year but did Phyllis Logan's Scottish accent sound stronger than previously to anyone else?

[helenamonster]

What I'm more surprised at is that the clinic would have a woman nurse a baby for months before handing it off for adoption.  Surely someone would realize that the birth mother would bond with the child, and that could lead to problems later.  Really, there were such things as wet nurses back then, and goats milk is a good substitute for mothers milk (knew a woman who couldn't nurse, her baby couldn't tolerate formula, and goats milk did the trick).

 

I guess, as someone mentioned upthread, the idea of parent/child bonding wasn't as commonly known as it is now. Clinical psychology was still in its infancy (weren't they still treating women for "hysteria" at this time?), so the idea of Edith becoming attached to Marigold as she spent four months breast feeding her (quite a long time, if you ask me) probably didn't occur to anyone. I think Edith even mention that "they" (presumably people at some Swiss clinic) said it was better for the child to be weaned from its birth mother. Obviously now I don't think women who are giving their children up for adoption breast feed them even once.

 

I literally laughed out loud at this. They really seem to have it in for her! I happen to adore Edith (I have a fondness for middle sisters and loved Jan Brady as well) and if JF were any kind of writer, at some point Edith would finally lose her shit and throw Pamuk in Mary's face. THAT would shut her up.

 

The great thing about this is that when Mary does find out, she will have no moral high ground to stand on. Any accusation she makes about Edith's "promiscuity" will be over-saturated with hypocrisy. That could just as easily have been her with Pamuk, she just got lucky. And it could happen with her and Tony (though I think we all know it won't).

 

So Edith is just supposed to walk away from a baby she wants but can't keep due to the dictates of a society that basically sees and treats them both as nothing? But it's only the Drewes and the unknown Swiss couple who are deserving of empathy...because...? Edith has basically had her child stolen from her by custom. She didn't give her baby up because she didn't want her; she had little choice. Not only for her own reputation, but for that of her bastard daughter, who would have been shunned and mistreated.

Which brings me to the same question I had when reading The Scarlet Letter: Why don't these "fallen" women just lie? If Gregson is dead, why not claim they married in secret? Surely the embarrassment over an elopement would die down eventually. It's not like Edith is going to amount to anything in the noble class anyway; she's a second-born daughter. So lie and keep your baby. Her parents wouldn't even have to know really.

 

As others have said, I do feel for Edith and do think it's unfair that she is unable to raise her child because society says so. However, I just hate that she's dragging so many people down with her. The Schroeders may not have had Marigold for long, but they were anticipating having a daughter for the rest of their lives, and the opportunity was snatched from them. I equate the sympathy I have for them with the same sympathy I'd give to parents who lost a wanted child due to a miscarriage or who had a baby that died shortly after birth. The Drewes have now had Marigold for over a year and consider her their own. I know we don't know them as well as Edith, but I am prematurely heartbroken for them when she inevitably takes Marigold back. I think adoptive parents too often get the short end of the stick, both in real life and in fiction. There's more to being a parent than biology. Just because Edith would have raised Marigold herself if circumstances had been different doesn't make the Drewes any less of parents to her.

 

And, again, as others have said, Michael is still legally married and is unable to divorce his wife (as a UK citizen), even though she's probably in some committed institution somewhere and, by his account, doesn't even recognize him anymore. Also, I haven't actually read The Scarlet Letter, just seen the (hilariously terrible) Demi Moore film adaptation, but idk how Hester could have lied either. Wasn't she married but her husband just hadn't come over to the colonies yet at the time she got pregnant? And her baby's father was a priest anyway, so there was no way they could have pretended to be married. Maybe the timeline/circumstances are different in the book, I've been informed that the Demi Moore adaptation is flimsy at best.

Edited January 6, 2015 by helenamonster

[JudyObscure]

One reason I can still like Edith after retrieving her baby (because I hate it when people renege on adoption, too) is that I was under the impression that the family in Switzerland was more like what we would call a foster home than a standard adoption. Didn't her aunt describe them as a nice family who took in lots of children, or something like that? Added to the fact that they only seemed to have had her a few weeks I just didn't picture the situation like a young couple who had finally got the baby they had always dreamed of. Same with the farm family, didn't the mother say something like, "Sometimes we almost forget she isn't ours?" I think they might love Marigold as we would love a niece who was staying, more than with the full commitment of parenthood.

Edith would probably find it easier to brush things off and get on with her life if she actually had some sort of life, but now that her writing career seems to be over and her "home," will soon belong to the sister who openly despises her, it must be galling, spending her days admiring her two sisters' children and puttering around aimlessly while silently grieving for the three men she has loved and lost and the child she can't claim. If Fellows would give me his pen for a day I would have her drive off in her motor car to a teaching job in the north (South Riding perhaps.)

[SunnyBeBe]

Regarding the way Mary told her father that she appreciated the way that he, Tom and herself were running the estate.  I thought that Mary had stepped in with an ownership of her late husband's estate and that's why she had control of a portion.  Recall there was a document that her late husband signed. It was forwarded to Mary after his death.  A legal determination was made that it had testamentary intent and was valid.  I can't recall the details though.  Anyone?

[Catherinewriter]

I hate, hate, hate what's being done to Edith's character. It was bad enough earlier in the series, but now it's just an example of what a terrible writer does. So she just went to Switzerland and took Marigold. How did she explain getting off the train with a child? And really, she didn't feel or smell the fire? I thought at first that she had taken something to kill herself, and then realized she wouldn't leave Marigold.

 

I wonder Laura Carmichael doesn't just leave, or have Fellowes run over by a truck, or something.

 

So, Bates: We seem to have several choices: He killed his wife but not Green; he killed Green but not his wife; he killed both of them; he didn't kill either of them. It's so awful that I care less and less every episode, except it love Anna so much that I want to have things work out for her.

 

So, why am I still watching? Anna, Tom, Mrs. Hughes, Isobel. 

[Pallas]

In any case historically there are references to Dowagers being childless widows and more than one to a title living at the same time.

 

Yes: but is the childless widow perhaps stepmother of the heir?  That would be the Raine Spencer example, among others.  And it wouldn't be surprising if in usage the rules are not strictly adhered to, so that any widow of a senior peer might be referred to (if not style herself) as Dowager (Title).  

 

But as I understand it, for a widowed Countess to be styled Dowager Countess, the succession must be direct: the late Earl must have been father or grandfather to his successor. The pertinent point is not the relation of the widow to the successor, but the relation of her late husband, the former titleholder.  It sounds like one more arcane way of keeping score, with a risible edge -- sire sons, m'lord, or suffer the petty consequences on your widow! -- while considered to be one more reason to be tidy in matters of succession.  And Debrett's states that when there is more than one widow who both survives a previous title-holder and is mother, stepmother or grandmother of the successor, the elder of the two is customarily the one accorded the title publicly, throughout her lifetime.  

 

Even Debrett's may not have made provision for the case Fellowes contrived: current Dowager Countess is the great-grandmother of the successor, and only by virtue of the maternal rather than titular line, and survives her son, the immediate previous title-holder.  My guess was that in this rare set of circumstances, Cora would then publicly assume the title.  But it may be up to the family to resolve.  

[Avaleigh]

The great thing about this is that when Mary does find out, she will have no moral high ground to stand on. Any accusation she makes about Edith's "promiscuity" will be over-saturated with hypocrisy. That could just as easily have been her with Pamuk, she just got lucky. And it could happen with her and Tony (though I think we all know it won't).

 

 

I don't think the Pamuk and Gregson affairs are at all comparable but I don't think that Mary would try to behave as though she has the moral high ground anyway since she knows better than anyone that Edith knows about Pamuk. I also doubt that Edith would have the nerve to throw Pamuk in Mary's face when that whole incident put Edith in an unflattering light and not the other way around IMO. Even Laura Carmichael thought her character was being a bitch here so I don't see why Edith would or should use the Pamuk situation as any kind of defense mechanism. If she does end up doing something like that I'd have to question if Edith isn't a little bit of a hypocrite herself since she's the one who gave Mary the label of being a "slut" after she found out about Mary having sex with Pamuk once and knowing that Mary had to suffer the ordeal of having him die in her bed after that first time. I know people frequently say that Edith is the only upstairs character to get all of the bad luck but honestly Mary has had some bad luck as well over the seasons and having the first guy you've ever had sex with die right after/during the act definitely qualifies as unusually, almost comically bad luck. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

I hate, hate, hate what's being done to Edith's character. It was bad enough earlier in the series, but now it's just an example of what a terrible writer does. So she just went to Switzerland and took Marigold. How did she explain getting off the train with a child? And really, she didn't feel or smell the fire? I thought at first that she had taken something to kill herself, and then realized she wouldn't leave Marigold.

 

I think people often die in fires that way; smoke inhalation can incapacitate a person very quickly.  But really, she should have noticed fairly soon after she threw the book across the room, and gotten up out of bed at least and been nearer to the door before collapsing.  After all, Thomas and Robert were able to stay conscious while rescuing her and trying to put out the fire, so she should have probably been able to roll off the side of the bed closest to the door and gotten out.  But then Thomas couldn't have earned another reprieve from firing.  Win-win, we get more underhanded machinations from Thomas and more angst and poor choices from Edith.

[Kohola3]

So, why am I still watching? Anna, Tom, Mrs. Hughes, Isobel.

 

Amen plus Mrs. Patmore, the dog, and the kiddies.  And usually Daisy.  

 

Otherwise all of Mary's Merry Men are interchangeable (so pick one already), Edith needs to man up and get a job and a spine, Donk needs to fall off a horse and break his stupid neck, Thomas needs to be exorcised, and Carson needs to get the stick out of his rear.  

[DiegoBurger]

When Mary first saw Pamuk she flamed up so fast she almost fell off her horse 

Ha-ha! When I read this, I laughed so hard I fell off my couch! So true, though. I'm surprised Mary and Blake didn't screw in the mud with the pigs. That was the last moment of sexual chemistry she had since she kissed Matthew on the xmas episode. (I am not counting all those sad, chaste married wink-wink. nudge-nudge kisses and moments in their pukey marriage.) Maybe she should visit Shrimpy in India and get all hot and bothered by the exotic clime.

[DiegoBurger]

 

Did anyone else get the impression from the Anna/Bates scene at the table talking about children that he was kind of complaining that they weren't doing it enough? I was only sort of paying attention so I'm not sure I got that right.

 

 

Maybe because just about everyone I know has fertility problems and people of that world are obsessed with finding an heir AND the previous Mrs. Bates never got preggers (as far as we know, and for all we know, she baked it in a pie and served it to our Mr. Bates), I thought it was some awkward reference to the issue of children and why for them, it might be tricky, he being a felon and murderer, her being at least high counts of obstruction of justice/police investigation and at worse, accessory to manslaughter. Wow. It just occurred to me how perfect these two are for each other if only they could really tell each other anything. They are the Bonnie and Clyde of Downtown Abbey. Thomas' head would explode.

[DiegoBurger]

Sorry if someone posted this but from how she was describing her reading experience, I think Daisy might be dyslexic. There's no way someone from her class would have had access to special help  - as some posted, she was likely working as a scullery maid by 12. When I've had enough of Mary's ennui and Edith's Edithness (when I do something stupid, I tell myself, "Stop Edithing!!!"), I like the stories of the young downstairs crew who have ambitions. Love that Jimmy works in the RItz and Mary can only fry and egg. Which of these two are better job candidates?

[Llywela]

I don't think Daisy is dyslexic, she just hasn't ever had access to a decent education. Even the schooling she had in her childhood would have been extremely rudimentary, and some girls went into service as young as 10 if things were tight. And if that basic grounding isn't there, it's really difficult to pick up the educational torch again later, especially if you don't have help and are trying to feel your way into it blind.

[izabella]

Regarding the way Mary told her father that she appreciated the way that he, Tom and herself were running the estate.  I thought that Mary had stepped in with an ownership of her late husband's estate and that's why she had control of a portion.  Recall there was a document that her late husband signed. It was forwarded to Mary after his death.  A legal determination was made that it had testamentary intent and was valid.  I can't recall the details though.  Anyone?

 

Matthew wrote a letter the day before they headed to Duneagle, and stuck it in a book in his office.  When someone cleared out his office, they sent his stuff and the book to Downtown.  Robert found the letter and wasn't going to show it to Mary until Murray (their lawyer) could validate it and make sure it was legal or not, but Violet told him he had to show it to Mary before he sent it anywhere. 

 

In the letter, Matthew said he knew it was too bad of a lawyer not to make a will, so he wanted to write his intentions and planned to make a will when they got back.  He made Mary his "sole heiress" to his entire estate.  At that point, Matthew's estate consisted of half of Mr. Swire's fortune, which he was investing in Downtown Abbey.  He had already given the other half directly to Robert, and Robert accepted it on the condition that he and Matthew would be partners in managing Downtown. 

 

Without the letter, and having no written will, Mary inherited 1/3 of Matthew's remaining half of the fortune, and the baby got the other 2/3 of Matthew's half.  So, the letter basically cut the baby out (of course Mary would leave him her money when she died, it's assumed).  Matthew specifically said in the letter that he didn't know if their baby would be a boy or a girl, but either way, it would be a baby and he wanted Mary to be his sole heiress.

 

I just watched the episode yesterday on a rewatch!

Edited January 6, 2015 by izabella

[Kohola3]

Mrs. Bates never got preggers (as far as we know, and for all we know, she baked it in a pie and served it to our Mr. Bates),

 

Bwahahahaha!

[Andorra]

Again to the topic of the "Schroeders". Adoption as we know it today didn't exist in 1924. I was under the impression that the Schroeders were not some childless young couple desperately hoping for a child to adopt, but that Marigold was simply put into Foster care and that she didn't stay there for longer than a few weeks. Eidht talked to her aunt, saying that there was no "formal agreement". So I don't really understand the outcry.

As I said. The Drewe's is more problematic. Marigold is obviously living with them for at least a year and they're treating her as one of their own.

[BrittaBot]

Hmmm, I think my TV cut out a scene. Did this happen to anyone else? I'm hearing all of you talking about fire chiefs and whatnot and I'm like huh? The last scene I saw before it cut to PBS "commercials" was Robert pouring stuff over the fire. And I remember thinking that was a really weird, abrupt way to end an episode. Can anyone fill me on what happened next? Thanks!

[teddysmom]

Hmmm, I think my TV cut out a scene. Did this happen to anyone else? I'm hearing all of you talking about fire chiefs and whatnot and I'm like huh? The last scene I saw before it cut to PBS "commercials" was Robert pouring stuff over the fire. And I remember thinking that was a really weird, abrupt way to end an episode. Can anyone fill me on what happened next? Thanks!

 

The fire dept showed up and took over running the hose on the fire, everybody got out of the house, including Isis. Then as the firemen were coming out of the house Edith saw the Mr Drewe in his fireman's uniform.  She went over to thank him and they had some conversation I think about meeting the next day to talk about the baby, and Mrs Hughes walked up. 

 

I think that's fairly accurate. If not, maybe someone else could fill in the blanks. 

[helenamonster]

One reason I can still like Edith after retrieving her baby (because I hate it when people renege on adoption, too) is that I was under the impression that the family in Switzerland was more like what we would call a foster home than a standard adoption. Didn't her aunt describe them as a nice family who took in lots of children, or something like that? Added to the fact that they only seemed to have had her a few weeks I just didn't picture the situation like a young couple who had finally got the baby they had always dreamed of.

 

A lot of people were insisting that this was the case in the S4 CS thread on TWoP and it's simply not true. Rosamund told Edith that her daughter (at the time unnamed) was now with "nice Mr. and Mrs. Schroeder and her new family," implying that the Schroeders already had other children and that Baby Girl CrawleyGregsonSchroederDrewe would be raised as a sibling to them. I'm not trying to sound nasty with this, it was just that I remember some people on TWoP thinking that because the Schroeders probably already had other children that that meant they wouldn't care for Edith's as much as their own and that that was justification for her to take the baby back, only to give her to another family.

 

I don't think the Pamuk and Gregson affairs are at all comparable but I don't think that Mary would try to behave as though she has the moral high ground anyway since she knows better than anyone that Edith knows about Pamuk. I also doubt that Edith would have the nerve to throw Pamuk in Mary's face when that whole incident put Edith in an unflattering light and not the other way around IMO. Even Laura Carmichael thought her character was being a bitch here so I don't see why Edith would or should use the Pamuk situation as any kind of defense mechanism. If she does end up doing something like that I'd have to question if Edith isn't a little bit of a hypocrite herself since she's the one who gave Mary the label of being a "slut" after she found out about Mary having sex with Pamuk once and knowing that Mary had to suffer the ordeal of having him die in her bed after that first time. I know people frequently say that Edith is the only upstairs character to get all of the bad luck but honestly Mary has had some bad luck as well over the seasons and having the first guy you've ever had sex with die right after/during the act definitely qualifies as unusually, almost comically bad luck. 

 

Oh, I'm not saying the situations are necessarily comparable either, just responding to a poster that talked about Edith throwing Pamuk in Mary's face. If Mary does give her shit for this Marigold thing though, I do stand by my belief that Edith has the right to hold up a mirror, especially if Mary takes up this dalliance with Tony. When Edith called Mary a slut, she did have the moral high ground because she was eight years away from having her own out-of-wedlock sexcapades. Now that they're on equal footing, either one that brings up the other's indiscretion first should be prepared to take what they dish out. (Also, when I talk about moral high ground, I'm referring to the social mores of the times. I don't objectively care one way or the other that either of them have had sex before marriage.)

 

Maybe because just about everyone I know has fertility problems and people of that world are obsessed with finding an heir AND the previous Mrs. Bates never got preggers (as far as we know, and for all we know, she baked it in a pie and served it to our Mr. Bates), I thought it was some awkward reference to the issue of children and why for them, it might be tricky, he being a felon and murderer, her being at least high counts of obstruction of justice/police investigation and at worse, accessory to manslaughter. Wow. It just occurred to me how perfect these two are for each other if only they could really tell each other anything. They are the Bonnie and Clyde of Downtown Abbey. Thomas' head would explode.

 

I don't see how Anna is an accessory to either of the murders that Bates may or may not have committed. She fully believed (and might still, who knows anymore) that Vera committed suicide. There was nothing illegal about the two of them getting married after Vera's death. She did it knowing that he'd probably be arrested and tried, and she wanted the rights afforded to the spouse of the accused, such as being able to visit him and to be kept informed of his case. She didn't do it to obstruct justice, because as she saw it, there was no justice to obstruct.

 

As for Green, she only suspects (maybe? again, who the hell knows) that he killed him and has no evidence other than that he was away from the house all day when he died, which is circumstantial at best. She tried to keep it from him that Green was the rapist because she was afraid that if he knew, he would kill him. Bates figured it out anyway when Green got too cocky and mentioned that he'd come downstairs during Melba's performance. However, he and Anna have never had an open conversation where they discussed Green really being the rapist. Anna does not know about the train ticket. If anyone obstructed justice, it was Mary and Mrs. Hughes.

 

 

 

The fire dept showed up and took over running the hose on the fire, everybody got out of the house, including Isis. Then as the firemen were coming out of the house Edith saw the Mr Drewe in his fireman's uniform.  She went over to thank him and they had some conversation I think about meeting the next day to talk about the baby, and Mrs Hughes walked up.

I think that's fairly accurate. If not, maybe someone else could fill in the blanks.

 

Also, Cora thanked Thomas for saving Edith, retracting her earlier anger at him for not telling her about Baxter. Bates and Anna came up to the house to see what all the commotion was about, and Anna had an ominous line to Mary about Bates "getting so worked up about these things." Robert also recommended to Carson that Jimmy might be better employed elsewhere, not telling him about what happened between him and Lady Anstruther. Lady Anstruther told Robert she'd sneak out before breakfast, which he agreed was for the best.

 

I rewatched last night, and there was a funny line Thomas had that I missed. When he's taking Jimmy to Lady Anstruther's bedroom, Jimmy says, "Maybe she just wants to talk." To which Thomas replied, "And maybe I'm the missing tsarevich." Ok, it's not haha funny, but I thought it was clever.