S29.E14: This Is My Time / Live Reunion

[riverblue22]

I read an interview with Jaclyn and she thought Reed's speech was "great."  She said a lot of the jury members felt the same way about Missy that Reed did.

 

And it was interesting to see Baylor's entrance to Ponderosa.  No hugs, no drinks, just "Hi Baylor, wash your hands, dinner is almost ready."  They were all keeping their distance from her.  The next to come, Keith, got the typical Bro welcome.

[Lakewood27]

Also, people have pointed out that it wouldn't be such a big deal if a man had been divorced 3 times. I think Rob C talked about how if Keith had been divorced 3 times people would be like "Haha, oh Keith. What a character". I agree that that's what the reaction would be.

I don't agree. If I hear a man is thrice divorced, my next thought is "and you live in a van down by the river"??

[KimberStormer]

Well this was a reasonably satisfying end for me.  Call me the craziest woman to walk the earth but I thought it was a very strong final 3 where each woman had a very good case for winning.  Natalie played an excellent improvisational game, where (unlike most improvisors) she wasn't thinking "how to survive this vote" but rather "how to survive the next vote".  Very strong and well done.  I think she overplayed some, but ultimately it worked exactly the way she wanted it to so in the end she knew better than me.  Missy was the key figure in what everyone thought of as "Jeremy's alliance", and her point that she dictated to people how to play was absolutely right.  Jaclyn played a strong flipping game with Jon, the first flip of which, as she said, was entirely her idea, and absolutely the right move for her; she had a strong read on what people were going to do (much better than Jon, who would have done better to listen to her); and she didn't lie down after Jon was gone but made the right case to the right person that resulted in the Baylor blindside and then won final immunity.  I am very very pleased to see three strong women in the final 3 of a season where women started out with a numbers disadvantage, and I am very happy that they all got at least one vote.

 

Not watched much, but can someone tell me why an injured contestant is allowed to stay in the game and NOT COMPETE???????  What a deal - move on to final three on the basis of not competing and not winning anything in 4 or 5 competitions!

 

I don't get it, can anyone help?

 

Missy shouldn't have been allowed to make it this far with her injury and not being able to compete. If you can't compete you should be taken out. What's the point of her staying in the game, not participating in any of the challenges including the last one and be dragged to the final 3? 

 

It's not even about what she thought though, Jeff and "Survivor" should have said "you need to go." If she has to sit out in all the challenges that everyone else has to fight and compete for. Why is she allowed to stay and someone who was playing in those challenges have to go? She should have been removed. Not sit like a bump on a log for the next 3+ immunity challenges. 

 

Do you know why people compete in immunity challenges?  It's so they can win immunity.  Not so they can not win immunity.  Missy having no chance to win immunity does not make it easier to "move to the final 3", it makes it harder.  The idea that it's some advantage is insane.

Moreover, the challenges are a side show just to complicate the game and make the voting slightly less predictable.  Voting is the real game.  Missy participated in the voting, so she did participate in the actual game.

 

 

 

I agree on the assessment of Jaclyn's jury speech - I don't think anyone bought it despite the efforts of Jon to try to bump up her Survivor cred.

 

I like how Natalie not only stroked Alec's ego in her response to his question, but also gave a nod to Jon and Baylor at the same time.

 

Josh threw the "are you a goat" question to Jaclyn, who seemed to deflect it well but Josh pressed it a bit more.

 

Funny how (and I completely agree with you) Natalie got to stroke Alec's ego by saying voting him out was her big move, but Jaclyn saying the exact same thing to Josh didn't seem to work that way.  I was frustrated by Josh's question because practically nobody ever does anything "by themselves" in a game like Survivor.  You can't singlehandedly vote someone out.  How could Jaclyn have answered to satisfy him?

 

Baylor proves her idiocy saying Missy had the best game play. WTF?? When did Missy ever have good game play?? Whatever Baylor, Missy made no big moves at all and neither did Jaclyn. I barely remember her in the let's get Josh out, I seen that to be Jeremy's plotting more than anything.

 

Think this has been answered but saying Josh went home because of Jeremy's plotting is really nuts in my opinion.  Jeremy had an alliance, he felt safe with them and didn't do much to convince Jon & Jaclyn, who were going to vote him out when Julie quit.  He was lucky to last as long as he did.  It was all Jaclyn.

 

I wonder if it was Keith who had been divorced 3 times if they would have constantly focused on it. The latent sexism on this show makes me fucking sick. But credit to Jeff for what he said on the reunion show about it.

 

I didn't watch the reunion, what did he say?  I've said it before, but this season has really opened my eyes to how awful people are about divorced women.  It's been pretty shocking.

 

I think Natalie's move was more about increasing her chances of surviving the F4 FTC.  If the F4 was Missy/Baylor/Natalie/Jaclyn, and Jaclyn won the F4 Immunity Challenge, Natalie might've been afraid that neither Missy nor Baylor would vote for each other, and that they'd stick together and vote her out.

 

Splitting up Missy and Baylor, and keeping Jaclyn and Keith in for F4 at least gave Natalie the chance to argue that either Jaclyn or Keith (whomever didn't win F4 Immunity) was a bigger threat than she was.

 

This explains very well (provided you switch Keith in for Jaclyn, since Keith couldn't be voted out) why to split up the Missy/Baylor pair.  It was a great move.  I probably would have gotten rid of Missy, though, instead of Baylor.  I'm not sure why she decided to go that way.  Baylor would have been another possibility to beat Keith at final immunity.

 

My other objection is to the nature of the "advantage" reward.   They ought to rename it the "unfair advantage."    This wasn't just some head start or skip a move. 

 

The advantages are always pretty egregious.  It was a guaranteed win when Cochran got one on the rope-holding challenge.  Malcolm's would have won almost anyone else the game, too bad for his shaky hands.  Maybe Abi's was the fairest, but still a huge advantage.  This one was definitely one of the worst, and it played out that way in the challenge.  Keith destroyed them.

 

I watched this episode with my husband, who was so convinced that Missy or Jaclyn would win. I told him that was impossible since the jury was nearly all men (or really male reality show contestants, since there is a difference), except one woman whose vote was non-negotiable. Natalie, by luck or design, was sitting next to the two female reality show archetypes that I believe male reality show contestants hate more than anything. . .

 

Natalie won by skill, but in the world of reality show contestant archetypes, she also won by default. The other contestants had no interest in her nurturing or her looks -- just her gameplay. Which was ideal in a nearly all-male jury.

 

Very well said and I agree.  I like Natalie and she deserved to win.  The other two didn't deserve it less, but they did have much less chance to win.  Oh well.  Natalie also had a much better chance for the fans to like her, and it's nice to see people being pretty much unanimously happy about a female winner, when usually there's a lot of naysayers when a women wins.  (Even Kim, somehow!)  It's great to see a deserving winner getting adoration from the fans.

[Miss Scarlet]

I didn't watch the reunion, what did he say?  I've said it before, but this season has really opened my eyes to how awful people are about divorced women.  It's been pretty shocking.

 

I do think that some women who are divorced are made to feel ashamed of it, which isn't right. On the other hand...

 

 

I think Missy's three divorces were only important in that she kept making them important. She brought them up as "proof," that she was, an expert on men, a survivor, a person who had been through all sorts of tragedy, a strong woman, and who knows what else. If we saw Missy or Baylor bring up the divorces five or six times, just think how often the others had to hear about it over the thirty nine days. I noticed that throughout the show she kept bringing it up in ways that made her look good, we didn't hear about the "shame," until the finale when she was crying about the meanness of Reed. Probably lots of people on Survivor have been divorced multiple times, they just didn't choose to make it their claim to fame.

This makes sense too. I also think that the 3 divorces and resulting relationship between Missy and Baylor was the hook that got them cast in the first place. So I can see Jeff bringing it up at challenges and tribal in front of the other players or the producers prompting Missy and Baylor to talk about this in confessionals. This is the kind of backstory they wanted in Blood vs. Water that would lead to emotional relationship transformations from being on the show and that Jeff could analyze. Between that and Missy/Baylor's own willingness to bring this up, it was discussed a lot and jokes arose from having discussed it so much. Maybe if it had been mentioned by Missy (or anyone else who plays that's been divorced a few times) off-hand a few times, such a big deal wouldn't have been made about it.

Edited December 19, 2014 by wudpixie

[Beebee111]

 

I remain 100% behind Reed's tribal speech.  One, Missy really was awful all season and deserved to be called out; she certainly was no "mother figure".  Two, Reed was talking about the game, not about her life, and so I don't see it as a personal attack but rather an attack on the persona she created for the game, and how she played the game.  Three, the producers encourage these folks to make dramatic speeches, and I'm sure Reed was egged on while at Ponderosa.  Fourth, it was flat-out awesome.

 

 I think saying that you are "talking about the game and not real life" is somewhat of a cop out when you are making such serious judgments about people's character that air on national TV, and the personal-vs-game lines are always blurry. The speech may have been articulate - and even 'accurate' according to his perception of Missy in the game BUT one thing it wasn't was kind. Reed chose to be so dramatically unkind to a fellow contestant, as he shrouds himself in all his all too typical religious hypocrisy. That kind of self-unaware, hypocritical self-righteousness, just doesn't sit well with me. Jeff even tried to give him an out - killer fatigue - and he didn't take it.

 

That being said, Natalie's win was deserved. I rarely like a survivor winner and I was happy with this one.

 

I can't believe survivor had a "race wars" season. How awful! It must have been during the block of years that I tuned out from the show. I think the concept for next year is ridiculous and goes to show there isn't any social problem or stereotype that Burnett won't exploit to make money.

 

If anything, i would like to be on the "no collar" tribe . . . if it is about shunning ridiculous societal stereotypes and institutions and trying (as much as possible) to live life on your own terms, or living simply (that does not exclude working hard). Of course, TPTB will strive to recruit a tribe full of lazy, entitled 21 year old people from mythical Portlandia-villes all over the US of A. Sounds exciting . . . not.

 

As has been said before, why do the reunion shows get increasingly awful? Why not more focus on the game and the contestants than all the fuzzy, fluff? Don't these people listen to their audience? Argh!

 

 

 

YMMV but I think the fact that Jeremy and Jon were nodding their heads at certain comments Reed made, particularly about how she rationed and treated those not in her alliance was quite telling.

 

If you see the ponderosa video of Baylor's arrival, Jeremy says he's pretty frustrated about all the guys constant bitching about Missy and Baylor - he doesn't seem to understand why they are so petty about everything. Missy may have earned some of the scorn but I feel like whenever there is an older woman who happens to be a "mother" on survivor, people have unrealistic and sexist expectations about how she should behave toward them. If she violates those expectations, she is penalized heavily even though a man in the same position would get nothing but a slap on the wrist.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Beebee111

[North of Eden]

Just watched....managed to go spoiler free all day and want to shout

YES!YES! YES! It's been so many years...maybe never that the player I wanted to win from episode one not only made it all the way through but actually WON without victory being snatched away at the last moment! I have loved the Twinnies since their first TAR. So  happy for Natalie!

 

I was on pins and needles the entire two hours when at every turn it looked like someone would wise up and vote her out. I even was convinced after stellar game play she screwed up betraying Missy/Baylor but during final tribal I realized it was brilliant...she would know John and Baylor would have to cast their vote for their loved ones and all she had to due was convince just enough others (Jeremy was always a lock) to win!  I was very quesy when it looked like maybe Jacklyn somehow managed to get a lot of votes...that would have been crushing to have her be the winner. Well played Twinnie!

 

As for the REUNION how is it possible after all these years Jeff and the producers don't know that NO ONE wants to hear from strangers...especially the interminable Class Wars audience members who aren't even going to be on next season....not while you have people on stage who played the game....let's hear from Julie about quitting...Val and her "multiple idols" ...Nadiya on how it feels for the Twins to bookened the season...anything but strangers! Rocker wouldn't have gotten to talk if he wasn't Rocker. Infuriorating.

 

And interviewing kids is ALWAYS A DUD....all they will give you is dead air.

 

Keith looked like he would rather be anywhere than the Reunion show. Between Jeff and Jeremy it was kind of mean spirited towards him and I didn't even really like Keith.

 

Dead air like when Missy got asked about Reed. I enjoyed Reed's speech but he needed to own up to it! It was plain and simple a PERSONAL attack and not based on the game.

 

Yay for Missy zinging  scathing remarks towards Jeff about  basically describing her as a Hat Trick Divorcee. And speaking of Missy...can we safely assume she hates Austin The Make a Wish Kid whose challenge design is directly responsible for her grievous injury?

 

Who did they get to play Jaclyn at the Reunion...who ever it was looks nothing like the attractive girl that was on the island.

 

Lastly a big MEH on CLASS WARS...I was expecting something epic for season 30 and nothing about that sounded very epic or different.

Edited December 19, 2014 by North of Eden

[KimberStormer]

I forgot to say that I don't really care about the gimmick as long as it's not more BvW glurge and no Redemption Island.  And there's three tribes?  Sounds like heaven to me.  Sign me up.

[SnideAsides]

Best part of the entire show was definitely the tweet they put up telling Jeff not to go into the audience. Hilarious. And it's telling when even the people making your show let everybody know they hate what you're doing with it too when you're on live television and can't do anything to stop them.

 

The worst is a tie though - either the Make-a-Wish challenge kid, which totally made it feel like the show trying to cover their own bases (even though the kid may have designed the challenge but he sure as fuck didn't build it), or Jeff's insistence that gay people on Survivor was still an important thing. And... like, Richard won the first season. Brandon made the first Big Move in Africa. The first Big Move that actually succeeded involved voting out John. Roger would probably have won Amazon if not for Alex still being residually pissed about his homophobic non-sequiturs a week after they'd happened. Ami dominated Vanuatu, and if Chris hadn't won that last challenge he'd have been voted out and Scout would have won. Voting Brad out over the mutineers in Cook Islands was the catalyst for Raro's implosion and the Triumph of the Non-White People. Todd won. Natalie was a key part of the women's alliance in Micronesia. Colton... exists, and so does (edit: did) Caleb. Frankly, gay people are the reason Survivor is still around, so Probst needs to shut the hell up.

[Guest]

I'm excited for class wars.  Race wars was Cook Islands and that was about the best season of all.  The racially divided tribes didn't last long, either.

 

I don't recall Missy talking about her marital history much in the game or about men at all.  I recall Baylor bringing it up in THs (usually), which I assume is producer-nudged.  You can never tell what gets said how much because they might say something five times (after being nudged) and it gets aired five times (or ten) because it serves the STORY.  And the things they say 5000 times don't get aired at all.  

 

I never got the impression Baylor felt Missy put men before her kids, except for the little bit of "she wants to remain allied to Jon even though I don't" stuff.  

[renatae]

Reed? Seriously? What a nasty piece of work! Wicked stepmother my rear! He did say some legitimate things. But that attack was way over the top, just as was what he said about Baylor. Blech.

[renatae]

I have goosebumps. Twinnie is officially one of my favorite female contestants EVER!

Even my son, who hated her on The Amazing Race, was rooting for her to win. I don't think I've ever seen him change his mind about anyone before.  I was hoping she would win, too, and we usually are not backing the same person. This is probably the first time.

[BK1978]

Remind me to never watch a Blood vs. Water season ever again.  It seems that people I despise always win first Tyson now Natalie.  To me her win ranks up there with Evil Dick winning Big Brother (Granted she was nowhere near a bad as Dick but she and her sisters are still thieves who willingly stole from people and then gloated about it and I can never respect someone like that.). 

 

A crappy winner for a crappy season I suppose.

Edited December 19, 2014 by BK1978

[Kromm]

This constant interrupting of  the show for meaningless chit chat is really annoying.  Jeff is breaking the 4th wall and constantly reminding us that this all happened 6 months ago - takes you out of the atmosphere of the show.  

I keep changing the channel.

 

SHUT UP PROBST!!

ALWAYS, SHUT UP PROBST.

 

Even worse, Jeff planting ideas in the second to last tribal with his leading questions is a bit too far.  By overtly ASKING if Natalie expected payback, he almost invalidated that debt. ALMOST being the vital thing, but even still..

Just watched....managed to go spoiler free all day and want to shout

YES!YES! YES! It's been so many years...maybe never that the player I wanted to win from episode one not only made it all the way through but actually WON without victory being snatched away at the last moment! I have loved the Twinnies since their first TAR. So  happy for Natalie!

I despised the Twinnies on TAR.  To an epic extent the first time.  And admittedly less so the second time, but it was still there.

 

But Natalie actually won me over on Survivor.  Being separated from her sister helped focus her on actually playing a game rather than stupid bickering and loud annoying antics, and we got to see the claim of the two of them that they were actually clever proven out (well, for at least half the pair). 

 

I am actually trying to decide if Natalie even NEEDED to blindside Baylor to win. If Jacklyn had gone then, and we give Natalie the benefit of the doubt and say she won the next Immunity in Jacklyn's absence, then it would have ended with Natalie, Baylor and Missy (because Natalie would have immunity and they couldn't have booted her for Keith).  And Missy and Baylor would have split each other's jury votes around the same as Missy and Jacklyn, because frankly the jury didn't like EITHER Baylor OR Jacklyn overall.

 

That said I don't think it hurt her than much either, and maybe it gained her other votes she might not have otherwise had. How so?  "Respect" votes for playing with balls.  Anyone who was on the fence trying to figure out who played the game the hardest would be swayed by such a late in the game blindside, as long as it wasn't played off as "betraying" someone.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Kromm

[JudyObscure]

Reed chose to be so dramatically unkind to a fellow contestant, as he shrouds himself in all his all too typical religious hypocrisy. That kind of self-unaware, hypocritical self-righteousness, just doesn't sit well with me.

Typical religious hypocrisy? Reed said he was a Christian, not that he was Christ-like.   I don't think professing belief in the divinity of Jesus means you're a hypocrite if you aren't behaving like Mother Teresa 24/7. 

[Fake Jan Brady]

Jaclyn would never survive without Jon in this game, if only because she sucks at challenges. I have never seen someone move so slowly, yet still cause themselves so much injury, no matter what the task is. I can't tell if it's because she's just super uncoordinated, or because she was in starvation mode.

You monster! Don't you know the lack of a uterus throws you off balance?!?

[Kromm]

Remind me to never watch a Blood vs. Water season ever again.  It seems that people I despise always win first Tyson now Natalie.  To me her win ranks up there with Evil Dick winning Big Brother (Granted she was nowhere near a bad as Dick but she and her sisters are still thieves who willingly stole from people and then gloated about it and I can never respect someone like that.). 

 

A crappy winner for a crappy season I suppose.

As a person? She could be.  The kind of stuff she did that you've mentioned, in fact her entire demeanor on TAR, was pretty icky.

 

But she played the hell out of this game.  And I think while even TAR shouldn't be driven by a "who's nicest" factor, that matters even less on Survivor.  And actually she did reign in her nastiness on this show.  Maybe far more of that came from Nadya.  Or maybe the two of them just bring out the worst in each other and it was damn well time they needed some time apart.

 

For example, unless they hid it in editing, I didn't see her getting smug or lording it over the players in the minority alliance. She played it smart and at worst was cautiously polite to everyone--but also at the same time didn't socialize with the other side so much she hit the panic button with someone in her own alliance. That balance is a key to winning this game, almost as much as visibly not being a carry along and being able to publicly live up to your game moves. Clearly the big exception in terms of conflict with others in the game was her fight with John Rocker, but honestly all that did was gain her support (not only with the public at large, but I think with most of the others in the game).

 

Also, I've just watched her final tribal.  And I have to say she did one of the best final tribal Q&As this show has even had. Straight answers. Emphasizing gameplay over soppy emotionalism. Heck, even when she talked about Nadya being booted she talked about it in terms of reshaping her strategy rather than falling back on a soppy "doin' it for my sister!" answer (which she DID give in the Reunion, but that's another thing entirely). She didn't sounded cold, or smug, or defensive, and articulated exactly what she did and why.  She had a big advantage already, I think, going into that Tribal (because neither Missy nor Jacklyn had any real fans on the Jury other than their loved ones), but she shored up well any doubts the others might have had. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by Kromm

[kikaha]

I think Nat chose to keep Missy instead of Baylor because of the FIC.  Missy almost surely would be AWOL at the FIC: so booting Baylor meant one less person Nat had to beat there. 

 

FICs really can be important.  Two of the most dominant winners ever -- Kim and Boston Rob -- wouldn't have made FTC IMO if they hadn't won the FIC.  Another tribute to how well Nat played is that even though Jaclyn knew Nat had a great story to tell the jury, she took her anyway. 

[Kromm]

 Another tribute to how well Nat played is that even though Jaclyn knew Nat had a great story to tell the jury, she took her anyway. 

Ah, but my argument is that Nat barely used that story (and in fact, with some real cynics on the Jury benefited from not doing so).  She was steered in the direction of addressing how it was to play without a partner by the question about how it WAS to play with one, but reframed the question enough that she didn't have to toss out lots of cliches on the subject.  "Might as well win if I was doing it myself" was a fairly perfect way to phrase it--addressing the issue but not soaking it in crocodile tears. 

 

Not that she wasn't already the favorite, I think.  As I said before, Missy and Jacklyn didn't have fans in the Jury. KEITH was the only person who might have beat her.  So getting HIM out was the big moment for her than sealed the win.  Admittedly she risked that by dealing with Baylor first, but that move against Baylor is also possibly what gained her a lot of respect from many of those guys on the Jury.

[RedheadZombie]

I also think it would be cool to have an all-women's season.  Wonder how such a season would fare in the ratings? 

 

In theory, this would be fascinating.  A show filled with Kims, Natalies, Denises, Sophies, Parvatis, and Ciries would be unbelievably interesting.  No challenges structured for alpha males, and no using your boobs to manipulate your fellow survivors. But then I remember this is Survivor.  If they casted the women as they typically do, there would be maybe two "mother figures" (women in their 40s-50s, but still quite attractive).  The rest would be pageant girls with large implants and tiny bikinis.  The only remotely interesting part, would be the inability to attach themselves to an alpha male and sunbathe until the finale.  Watching that realization wash over their faces, as they stand there looking at a cast filled with their equals, would be amazing.

[cooksdelight]

And Jeff & Co. would have lots of challenges involving mud.

[kikaha]

Kromm -- Jaclyn had to make her decision before FTC.  So from the standpoint of her choice, it didn't really matter what Natalie actually did there.

 

Zombie -- a female all-stars could kick butt.  We'd get a mix of brains, beauty, jocks and manipulation,  In some cases, all in one player.  Some possible players who to mind are Kim, Denise, Sophie, Sandra, Parvati, Amanda, Natalie, Andrea, Jaclyn, Lisa, Kass, Cirie, Vecepia, Sabrina and RC (at the very least for eye candy).

 

 

And Jeff & Co. would have lots of challenges involving mud.

 

One can always hope!

[blackwing]

Jeff would cry if he had to host an all female Survivor. There'd be no alpha male for him to ogle and praise. It's surprising he was able to make it through this season. John Rocker was voted out early. Jeremy doesn't fit the "young white and hunky" criteria that he likes. And Jon is at best a Beta Male.

[Kromm]

Kromm -- Jaclyn had to make her decision before FTC.  So from the standpoint of her choice, it didn't really matter what Natalie actually did there.

 

Zombie -- a female all-stars could kick butt.  We'd get a mix of brains, beauty, jocks and manipulation,  In some cases, all in one player.  Some possible players who to mind are Kim, Denise, Sophie, Sandra, Parvati, Amanda, Natalie, Andrea, Jaclyn, Lisa, Kass, Cirie, Vecepia, Sabrina and RC (at the very least for eye candy).

 

 

One can always hope!

Jeff won't admit Kim ever existed on this show (muchless won).

 

The problem with a few of those others is that they've been on this show too many times already.  I hate repeat players overall, but when you get to the three times club?  I don't want to see you anymore.

[ProfCrash]

I think Nat chose to keep Missy instead of Baylor because of the FIC.  Missy almost surely would be AWOL at the FIC: so booting Baylor meant one less person Nat had to beat there. 

. 

Natalie said in her Ron Has a Podcast interview that she booted Baylor because she knew Missy would not be able to compete in the final competition and it would be easier for her to win. She was surprised when Jaclyn won immunity.

 

I know plenty of men who have been divorced three times. It makes as little sense to me for them as it did with Missy. I have not asked for details, I don't need them, but I think it is crazy. It happens but it is crazy. I got the feeling that Missy and Baylor were discussing the divorces a fair amount on their own. I know the guys in my office (yes, two of the four people in the room I work in has been divorced three times) discuss it regularly. Hell, they joke about it all the time.

 

I don't think we saw anything overly egregious on the show but Missy was very protective of Baylor, was one of the ones not rationing rice, and was handed rewards left and right. I think it is in some ways similar to Jaclyn's behavior. Nothing seemed over the top but there was this underlying element of something is off. Jaclyn complains about the guys not talking to her and then admits that Reed and Josh talked with her and were nice. And then Keith, Wes, and Alec all comment that she never approached them and she admits that is right. And then we have the flips for seemingly stupid stuff, Missy not taking her on the reward. There was a good amount of evidence that she was entitled. Missy left a good amount of evidence that she was not the easiest person to get along with. So while we did not see anything to reach the levels of what Reed said, it was obvious that Missy was not well liked by the other alliance.

 

The exit interviews and some of the comments in interviews makes me feel that there was a clear divide in the alliances and there was little mixing between the alliances and some type of existing tensions. I think there were some real personality clashes and people just not getting along. Nothing to Lindsey levels last year but enough that there were bad feelings between the two groups.

[Kromm]

The exit interviews and some of the comments in interviews makes me feel that there was a clear divide in the alliances and there was little mixing between the alliances and some type of existing tensions. I think there were some real personality clashes and people just not getting along. Nothing to Lindsey levels last year but enough that there were bad feelings between the two groups.

Ah, but there's the rub.  Nat walked that tightrope of not letting things get nasty with the other group (other than with the disgusting John Rocker), but not coddling them so much that her own allies started to distrust her and turn on her.  Missy, Baylor... even John and Jaclyn? Not so good at that.

 

Ergo, Nat was able to come out the other end with nobody SO pissed at her that they couldn't get past how she totally played everybody (and in fact into that rare space where they liked it, because they'd rather have gotten fooled by someone really smart than have somebody they couldn't summon much respect for float or luck into beating them).

Edited December 19, 2014 by Kromm

[kikaha]

Crash -- I thought the guys didn't just ignore Jaclyn. They wanted her to serve them.  i.e. it was mocking disrespect. 

 

I also thought Jaclyn's flips were not over trivial matters.  Missy chose Natalie for reward, which made Jaclyn think she (and Jon) were at the bottom of the alliance.  She was absolutely right: another example of her excellent Survivor instincts. 

 

Jeff would cry if he had to host an all female Survivor. There'd be no alpha male for him to ogle and praise.

 

I personally think Jeff would do ok -- interested to see if that's so.  But another alternative would be for Jeff to take a three-month vacation, and let someone like, say, Parvati, take over hosting duties for the women's season. 

[Puffaroo]

 

Natalie probably played the best game by a female contestant since Parvati. I wasn't a fan since she and Nadya were irritating on TAR, but I grew to like her. Most deserving winner in my opinion.

 

Natalie played it better -- she didn't use sex as a weapon.

[candall]

 

This hits a little close to home for me, admittedly, because I do work on a hotline for LGBT youth. But there are tens of thousands of Christian kids sitting around right now terrified that they're going to burn in hell because of their sexual orientation, or afraid that they will have to turn their backs on a faith that matters to them in order to be who they are and wondering if just removing themselves from the earth is the only solution. It's actually a big deal that they were on there showing that you can live as both (and on a show that is based on lying and backstabbing, I'm not going to ask them for perfect squeaky-clean Christian behavior in the context of the game show).

Thanks for working the hotline, Gesundheit. 

 

I could go several lifetimes without hearing "That's not how a good Christian ought to behave,"  [or "vote"] since it's the drumbeat of the religious/politically conservative area where I live.  I have a number of adult friends who have spent decades in quiet desperation because coming out of the closet would cost them their church, their entire family structure and the only way to live they've ever seen.

 

So I can easily believe that a couple of guys on Survivor who are gay and Christian could make an enormous impact on many people. 

 

As for Reed's speech:  terrific.  I would love to have seen Missy orchestrating Baylor into the primo sleeping spot in the shelter!  If that's not wicked stepmother material, I don't know what is.

[Kromm]

Natalie played it better -- she didn't use sex as a weapon.

Sex is a valid weapon when dealing with men making themselves fools over you.

Frankly though, even though Jeff Probst shows her no respect, Kim played a better game than even Natalie or Parvati. Although I'd rank them as the top three (since I'm personally not a big fan of Sandra and Cirie, those two fall into fourth and fifth).

[Guest]

I know plenty of men who have been divorced three times. It makes as little sense to me for them as it did with Missy.

People who marry a lot tend to have low risk aversion.  They are often entrepreneurs.  They feel like "go big or go home", "life is short".  

 

I don't think Natalie played Survivor differently than she played TAR.  I think she was edited differently.  

[peachmangosteen]

I don't think Natalie played Survivor differently than she played TAR.  I think she was edited differently.  

 

That's interesting and may very well be true. I personally liked Natalie on TAR. I was disappointed when the Twinnies stole that other team's money and for me that is over the line, but I still liked them well enough. But also, I think the lines in Survivor are a bit different that the ones in TAR. I mean, Reed stole a clue for the HII from Keith's bag, but that kind of move is probably generally found acceptable and even genius at times. Anyway, I'm not even sure where I was going with this!

 

Sex is a valid weapon when dealing with men making themselves fools over you.

 

Well said. I think it's interesting that people will put Parvati in the top tier of players/winners and yet still deride women who 'use their boobs to manipulate' or flirt with the men to get further. Parvati played that kind of game impeccably and I applaud her for it. Hell, she played that kind of game with women even!

Edited December 19, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Special K]

The problem isn't the divorces, the problem is identifying with them.  I've been divorced and a lot of people I know casually, including coworkers, don't know I was ever married.  It was a long time ago and I just don't identify with it enough to bring it up.  If it comes up, fine.   

 

As to the mother thing, again, it's not being a mother that is the problem, it's embodying the mother archetype and then exploiting it that gets people angry, especially men, I might note, who may be particularly susceptible to the mommy thing.  One of my favorite-est players of all, Denise, was a mother, and did talk about her daughter on the show and how much she loved her, but Denise didn't play a mother on TV.  She was just a woman, fully rounded.

[ghoulina]

I think Nat chose to keep Missy instead of Baylor because of the FIC.  Missy almost surely would be AWOL at the FIC: so booting Baylor meant one less person Nat had to beat there.

FICs really can be important.  Two of the most dominant winners ever -- Kim and Boston Rob -- wouldn't have made FTC IMO if they hadn't won the FIC.  Another tribute to how well Nat played is that even though Jaclyn knew Nat had a great story to tell the jury, she took her anyway.

 

I totally agree. And given that Baylor had just suggested Nat using HER II on Missy, Nat would have been wise to guess that Baylor and her mother were considering voting her out. So having Baylor win that FIC would have been a lot riskier than Jaclyn winning. And yea, Missy was basically a non-issue. 

 

And then this:

 

She was surprised when Jaclyn won immunity.

 

Weren't we all? She was so far behind Nat and Keith; she looked like she could barely breathe. I was definitely shocked when she came from behind and won that, especially when it didn't really seem like the other two were badly struggling with THEIR puzzles or anything. 

[truthaboutluv]

Crash -- I thought the guys didn't just ignore Jaclyn. They wanted her to serve them.  i.e. it was mocking disrespect.

 

 

That was not how I remembered that episode. The guys, particularly Wes and Alec were being disgusting with the farting and talking about their bodily functions and there was Keith spitting all over the place and that did start to get on her nerves. But then she got really annoyed when Alec ordered her along with Baylor to go get wood for fire and made a comment to the effect that they knew only Natalie would do anything because she was the only one of the women apparently working around camp in their eyes. That pissed Jaclyn off and she decided then that there was no way they were getting her votes. 

 

That said, when Jon got back from Exile, her biggest complaint was that the guys never once approached her to talk strategy and discuss the plans and basically plead their case to her like they just assumed she didn't matter and only Jon made the decisions. And then at the tribal council, that again was the point she reiterated, that they were at the bottom, they needed her and Jon's votes and yet they still acted like she was nobody worth talking to. And then the following week, after Jeremy had been blindsided, she again ranted about how neither Wes or Alec or Keith approached her at all, that only Reed did.

 

And that was the time when Wes, super laid back, rarely says anything Wes, stated a little irritably that Jaclyn never said a word to him either. And Jaclyn's response was sort of an equivalent of "but you're the one at the bottom so why should I come to you instead of you coming to me..." But that was when I  thought back to her early days in the competition and wondered if when the situation was reversed and she was at the bottom of Coyopa if she ever tried to talk to Wes or Alec because I don't remember seeing that. We saw Baylor try to scramble but never Jaclyn. And so I do think it's interesting that for all her rantings, post game she now admits that no, she didn't talk to them anymore than they spoke to her. I definitely think  Jaclyn exhibited a lot of entitlement at times in the game. And that blowup she had at Natalie was bullshit and kudos to Natalie for just letting her make an ass of herself and not cussing her out and putting her in her damn place. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Jobiska]

Weren't we all? She was so far behind Nat and Keith; she looked like she could barely breathe. I was definitely shocked when she came from behind and won that, especially when it didn't really seem like the other two were badly struggling with THEIR puzzles or anything.

 

Natalie struggled with untying the cover of the numbers clues, enough that Jeff made a comment about it.  I do wonder, if she had gotten it untied quickly, whether she might have won.  Well, no matter in this case, as she won in the end.

A lot of people groan at puzzles--I groan at knots.  I hate when they have to untie things.  Knots have a mind of their own, and if more than one challenge setter-upper is tying the knots, it would be easy to unintentionally make one set a little tighter than another set.  

[ProfCrash]

Crash -- I thought the guys didn't just ignore Jaclyn. They wanted her to serve them.  i.e. it was mocking disrespect. 

 

I also thought Jaclyn's flips were not over trivial matters.  Missy chose Natalie for reward, which made Jaclyn think she (and Jon) were at the bottom of the alliance.  She was absolutely right: another example of her excellent Survivor instincts. 

I don't remember it that way. In that same series of clips, the Neanderthals were berating Baylor for not working, farting, burping, and asked the women to watch the fire. They were behaving like Neanderthals, there was no doubt about it. They were disrespectful to everyone (the lack of manners) and giving Baylor crap for not working (something that was a theme throughout the season) but I don't remember anyone asking the women to serve them.

 

Jaclyn was right, they were at the bottom of the alliance but that should have been clear long before that event. The flipping between alliances pretty much guaranteed that the two were at the bottom of any alliance because no one knew if they could trust them. Missy should have brought Jaclyn, that was a mistake.

 

Jaclyn had better instincts about where they were in the game but she was not a strong social player. She did not approach the guys to talk. She was on the outs in her original tribe. Listen to her exit interviews, she admits that she was kept in the game because of Jon's social play. Natalie crossed the alliances because she was smart. Jaclyn, Missy and Baylor screwed up by not working to get along better with folks. Honestly, the three of them paid little attention to the social game. Some of that could have been serious personality differences and the different parties decided it was better to not interact then interact and increase tensions. Last season the tensions were so clear and in the open, this season they seemed to be buried but clearly influenced the game. So we can all point to the little hints that we saw but we don't really get the level animosity but my god is it there. The word associations, descriptions of folks and comments made in final interviews point to a very real divide in the tribes.

 

So props to Natalie for not being involved in that and getting along with everyone, it contributed to her win. The folks who allowed the social element slide (Keith, Alec, Wes, Jaclyn, Missy, and Baylor) hurt their games. Alec and Wes were dead once they lost the numbers because they could not find a way to survive due to a lack of social game. Jaclyn, Missy and Baylor were dead at final tribal because of their lack of a social game.

 

So yeah, I don't see the guys as misogynistic pigs. I see a ton of really bad social play on both sides that screwed over all parties. Jon and Natalie were the only two who seemed to be able to play the social game as well as the challenges. Natalie won because she had a better grasp of strategy then Jon and remembered the first rule of Survivor, don't trust anyone and stay on your toes. Jon ended up trusting Missy and Natalie far too much and lost because of it.

[Beebee111]

 

Typical religious hypocrisy? Reed said he was a Christian, not that he was Christ-like.   I don't think professing belief in the divinity of Jesus means you're a hypocrite if you aren't behaving like Mother Teresa 24/7.

 

The hypocrisy comes in when you hold others to standards of behaviour that you yourself are unable to abide by. Being so unkind to someone while judging them harshly for their own supposed unkindness is hypocritical IMO. That's what Reed did. YMMV.

 

 

I was disappointed when the Twinnies stole that other team's money and for me that is over the line, but I still liked them well enough

 

Apparently they tried to give the money back to the producers, but that was edited out of the show to heighten the drama - which is too bad because it left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. I couldn't start their over-the-top loudness in TAR - but I think being separated was probably the best thing for both of them - Nat unexpectedly grew on me over time.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Beebee111

[truthaboutluv]

I guess I don't see the hypocrisy. I've read multiple times that Reed just laid into Missy almost blindly and completely hateful and I didn't see that particularly because everything he said, he gave reasons why he said it. For example, his feeling of her treating those not in her alliance as outcasts was in his opinion, demonstrated through her rationing, how she'd push to have who was on her side get the best sleeping positions, etc.

 

I guess I don't agree that calling someone out on their behavior/attitude automatically equates to being unkind. And the only hypocrisy I would see is if someone else said that everything Reed accused Missy of doing, he did himself and that didn't seem to be the case. I would also add that Missy almost set herself up for that judgement by placing a lot of her gameplay and persona in the game if you will, around being this "mom", being the caring, loyal mom and Reed's comment was essentially a "bullshit, no you weren't and here's why."

Edited December 19, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[ghoulina]

A lot of people groan at puzzles--I groan at knots.  I hate when they have to untie things.  Knots have a mind of their own, and if more than one challenge setter-upper is tying the knots, it would be easy to unintentionally make one set a little tighter than another set.

 

I could not agree with you more. Knots can be tricky in day to day life, never mind when there's an immense amount of pressure on you to quickly untie one. I would probably totally flounder a knots challenge if I was on Survivor. 

[Guest]

I guess I don't see the hypocrisy. I've read multiple times that Reed just laid into Missy almost blindly and completely hateful and I didn't see that particularly because everything he said, he gave reasons why he said it. For example, his feeling of her treating those not in her alliance as outcasts was in his opinion, demonstrated through her rationing, how she'd push to have who was on her side get the best sleeping positions, etc.

 

I guess I don't agree that calling someone out on their behavior/attitude automatically equates to being unkind. And the only hypocrisy I would see is if someone else said that everything Reed accused Missy of doing, he did himself and that didn't seem to be the case. I would also add that Missy almost set herself up for that judgement by placing a lot of her gameplay and persona in the game if you will, around being this "mom", being the caring, loyal mom and Reed's comment was essentially a "bullshit, no you weren't and here's why."

My problem with Reed's tantrum was it seemed so self-serving.  Being out there with a bunch of people you don't like is an integral part of the game.  FTC 'questions' aren't really supposed to be a forum for you to grandstand on the platform of "I don't like X because Y and Z..."  Who cares?  I mean, a lot of people do enjoy those sort of scenes but I don't.  If you don't like the game, shut up and go home.  

 

But I really felt like it wasn't even 'about Missy'.  It was about Reed putting on a performance before his 15 minutes ended.  

 

I didn't think Missy ever claimed to be a caring nurturer to the whole camp.  I think she probably did do the mom thing and take over a lot of the cooking and cleaning and organizing and maybe even helping others remember to keep up on sunscreen or other things moms do.  Maybe she was a wicked stepmother but I didn't see it and others didn't seem to hate her, judging from all the rewards given to her.  

 

Maybe Reed expected her to take him into his alliance and was hurt she wouldn't?  Maybe Reed's used to being given the best sleeping spot (metaphorically) and being the spoiled brat in the group?  

[LanceM]

I guess I don't see the hypocrisy. I've read multiple times that Reed just laid into Missy almost blindly and completely hateful and I didn't see that particularly because everything he said, he gave reasons why he said it. For example, his feeling of her treating those not in her alliance as outcasts was in his opinion, demonstrated through her rationing, how she'd push to have who was on her side get the best sleeping positions, etc.

 

I guess I don't agree that calling someone out on their behavior/attitude automatically equates to being unkind. And the only hypocrisy I would see is if someone else said that everything Reed accused Missy of doing, he did himself and that didn't seem to be the case. I would also add that Missy almost set herself up for that judgement by placing a lot of her gameplay and persona in the game if you will, around being this "mom", being the caring, loyal mom and Reed's comment was essentially a "bullshit, no you weren't and here's why."

 

Well he did complain that Missy was given all these free rewards when he himself was one of the one's that gave a free reward to her. And lets cut through all the BS about Missy getting these rewards from people. They didn't give them to her out of their kindness of their hearts they gave them to her (and others) because they were trying to curry favor with them.

 

There is also this from Natalie in her Gordon Holmes interview:

 

http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/tag/survivor-san-juan-del-sur/

 

"If I was Baylor I would have punched him in the face right there. I would be so protective. It was really hard to watch, too. What Reed did was so weird. I was sitting there and me and Jaclyn were looking at each other like, this is so awkward. I’m trying to win the million bucks, so I couldn’t be my usual self and cuss him out. I thought it was unnecessary. But the things he was saying to Missy were the things him and Josh were guilty of. They’d save each other rice. I was over it. This guy is being a queen right now."

Edited December 19, 2014 by LanceM

[truthaboutluv]

Maybe Reed expected her to take him into his alliance and was hurt she wouldn't?  Maybe Reed's used to being given the best sleeping spot (metaphorically) and being the spoiled brat in the group?

 

 

Or maybe he thought she treated other people shitty at times and told her so...

 

Being out there with a bunch of people you don't like is an integral part of the game.  FTC 'questions' aren't really supposed to be a forum for you to grandstand on the platform of "I don't like X because Y and Z..."  Who cares?  I mean, a lot of people do enjoy those sort of scenes but I don't.  If you don't like the game, shut up and go home.

 

 

Again I guess I just don't see what Reed said or did that gave impressions like these. Yes being out there with a bunch of people one may not like is a part of the game, just as is being called out when one makes the FTC by those they voted out. I don't get this "FTC is not the forum for this or that..." Once again, since the first season of this show people have used the FTC to ask questions about how a person felt they played the game and just as many have used it to lecture people on what they thought was awful about how they played the game.

 

Hell people have lectured, yelled and screamed at people they ended up voting for anyway - see Tony last season. Sarah, Jefra and especially Trish were all fairly livid towards him and Trish laid into him about using his dead father to swear to her he was loyal to her and she still voted for him. Lex gave his whole "Survivor is life" speech and used it to declare Rob the most horrible human being in the entire world, Ozzy spewed some bullshit to Parvati about him depriving him of his time with Amanda when she blindsided him, he and others also basically railed on Sophie about being incredibly pretentious and smug and obnoxious and incidentally voted for her anyway. 

 

Again, I saw nothing so awful, horrible and inappropriate in what Reed said to Missy. Just as his having to deal with a person he didn't like is "part of the game", well his getting to call her out as he saw fit at the  FTC, is part of the game. And again all he said was that she was essentially not a nice person, especially to those not in her favor and that in the end it came back to her when no one but her kid was going to vote for her. Hell in the grand scheme of harsh FTC comments, she got off easy IMO. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[North of Eden]

Sex is a valid weapon when dealing with men making themselves fools over you.

Frankly though, even though Jeff Probst shows her no respect, Kim played a better game than even Natalie or Parvati. Although I'd rank them as the top three (since I'm personally not a big fan of Sandra and Cirie, those two fall into fourth and fifth).

 

 The problem with Kim was she sapped the FUN right out of the game...she had such a locked stranglehold on the game it was deadly dull and her personality was non existant as well. A similar thing happened on BIG BROTHER this summer when Derrick so totally dominated the game it was boring with no suspense. I liked the way Natalie played...she took chances that should have sent her to the jury numerous times and yet somehow still prevailed!

[KimberStormer]

Natalie said in her Ron Has a Podcast interview that she booted Baylor because she knew Missy would not be able to compete in the final competition and it would be easier for her to win. She was surprised when Jaclyn won immunity.

 

From the show I would have thought the important thing was not to win herself but to keep Keith from winning, so this was surprising, but then I remembered her saying that it was a mistake to keep her over Keith.  So I wonder how much Keith was the beneficiary of the classic last-boot hero edit after all.  Of course we can never take Jeff's "who would you have voted for" thing seriously since it is influenced by the contestants watching the edited show, but I wonder what the result would have been if, rather than a Jaclyn-Missy-Keith F3, he had asked about a Natalie-Missy-Keith F3.  I assumed Keith and Natalie would split that vote pretty closely, but maybe I'm totally wrong!

 

 The problem with Kim was she sapped the FUN right out of the game...she had such a locked stranglehold on the game it was deadly dull and her personality was non existant as well. A similar thing happened on BIG BROTHER this summer when Derrick so totally dominated the game it was boring with no suspense. I liked the way Natalie played...she took chances that should have sent her to the jury numerous times and yet somehow still prevailed!

 

Responding in past players thread.

[Puffaroo]

Blech. This is the part of the finales I hate so much - Probst blathering on to us and the studio audience in between segments of the actual show. It's as annoying as all the cuts to the THs during PBS at fund-raising time. Less talk, more actual show would be appreciated.

 

This is precisely why I record the show and watch it the next day.  That also gave me the opportunity to fast-forward any time Jon or Jaclyn started talking.

 

More show, yes, but not the maudlin walking along the trail and remembering all the past competitors, ick.

 

As for the winner, I'll just say exactly what I said re: the winner of Hell's Kitchen:  Oh, thank God.  ;)

[Guest]

 I don't get this "FTC is not the forum for this or that..." 

Yeah, I should've said, "It'd be my preference if they didn't use FTC as a place to berate each other's personalities", but sometimes I enjoy it, too.  I would've loved it if Natalie had punched him in the face (in Baylor's shoes), for example.  

 

Why I didn't like it is more because I wish Survivor wasn't a stepping stone for the fame hos of the world.  But that too is reality tv.  There are people who will step up and play the villain just because to them it beats not being looked at at all.  It's like misbehaving children.  It's bratty, ironically.  

[bluebonnet]

It seems weird to get upset that players use Survivor as a stage when it actually is a stage.  It's not just a game.  These people are playing characters on tv.  It's hard to imagine that anyone goes on tv, on a reality show, without even a tiny bit of understanding that they are going on tv to become a character who will then play a part in a narrative that TPTB will choose.  Furthermore, I don't see why there is such distaste for those who come on to further a specific career (a stage career) when that disgust doesn't extend to others using the show as a platform for X reason.  Jaclyn used it as a platform to advance a medical cause.  All sorts of players use it as a platform for religious stuff.  

 

If you don't like Reed, fine.  I find his voice mildly annoying.  But everyone is using the show as a stepping stone to fame, even if it's only the 15 minutes of fame they get by being on the show.  

[BusyOctober]

As for next season, as long as the contestants wear this kind of collar, I'm in.

 

Edited December 19, 2014 by BusyOctober

[Cutty]

I read an interview with Jaclyn and she thought Reed's speech was "great."  She said a lot of the jury members felt the same way about Missy that Reed did.

 

And it was interesting to see Baylor's entrance to Ponderosa.  No hugs, no drinks, just "Hi Baylor, wash your hands, dinner is almost ready."  They were all keeping their distance from her.  The next to come, Keith, got the typical Bro welcome.

 

Of all the exit interviews Natalie was the only one who defended Missy and Baylor. She said on Cesternino's podcast that she wanted to tell Reed to shut up during his speech but she knew she couldn't. She also said she would have punched him in the face if he was talking about her mom like that. Natalie is awesome.

 

I don't know if I place all the blame on Missy and Baylor or if this was just a bunch of bros who were bitter they got outplayed by them. Jeremy said it was like being around high schoolers the way they sat around trashing them at Ponderosa, so I think they are probably just a bunch of bitter assholes.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Cutty

[truthaboutluv]

Of all the exit interviews Natalie was the only one who defended Missy and Baylor.

 

 

It also shows how we all interpret things differently because in her response, she says she and Jaclyn were both looking at each other like "what the hell..." Yet Jaclyn states in her exit interviews that she actually liked Reed's speech and know most of the jury agreed with him. So go figure...