S07.E12: Red Rose

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I have had my issues with Unser but he didn't deserve to die like that. He was quite was a dirty cop but he wasn't a bad cop. Like he noted a few times he got two familular with SAMCRO but he never did dirty work. I liked Unser: he was often the voice of reason and I felt sorry for him because Gemma was never going to love him and by the end her half love was the only thing he had left.

As for Juice; by the end the best he could ask for was choosing his own death and who killed him. At least he got to eat his pie first.

This is a show that has always had its issues but I will miss it when it is gone.

[Joan van Snark]

 

Unser's been involved in the SAMCRO from before Jax was born. He's a cop too, he has the marbles to know what would happen to a rat. Tara turning on the club, ratting the club out, is a rat.

 

This logic doesn't hold water to me at all.  Unser was helping and LIKED Tara--he would not purposely do anything that he thought would lead to her death.  As far as he knew, Jax was already picked up by the cops and Tara was in witness protection.  And if Unser was so certain to know what Gemma would do with that information, why would he not once in all this time have even suspected Gemma as the killer, especially after she stole his truck and ran from the house in a panic the night of the murder???

 

True, Unser could be very messy, nosy, and kind of pathetic, but I don't think he was an evil man and I don't think he was even close to being on the level of the club members or Gemma.  I fail to see how being nosy and sadly 'in love' with someone he could never have made him deserve to die.  And Unser had no plans on running to Gemma's side until he was goaded into by Nero.  You could use the same logic to say Nero would 'know what Jax would do' if he found him with Gemma, therefore it's now Nero's fault that Unser is dead.  Actually I think Nero is more responsible for Unser's death than Unser is for Tara's.

 

I don't know there was something about Dayton Callie that was oddly endearing to me, so I was really sad to see his character killed so callously.  I was also a big fan of Katey and although she was a horrible bitch on the show, she was still an entertaining and fun to watch bitch, so I was pissed to see her killed too.  

Edited December 4, 2014 by Joan van Snark

[leighdear]

I would have preferred that Jax left Unser alive & took them both out to the garden.  He'd then call the local cops & let them know he had Gemma, a killer, there.  Once he heard the sirens approaching, he should have eaten his pistol.

 

Gemma would experience true horror as she watched her beloved son kill himself, and it would be her fault.  She would be headed to jail with no way for Unser to save her, and would have years to contemplate the complete loss of her family, including her grandsons.  The boys left in the club could make sure Gemma continued to suffer in prison. 

[Puddy]

A more fitting end for Gemma would have been to lose Nero because he knew she killed Tara, lose her grandsons because CPS is preventing her from any and all contact with them, lose her father to Alzheimer's and lose her son to a Mayhem vote.

 

All she would have?  Chuckie and Unser.  Both of them added together would still come up short for her.  She would then have to live with her past or do the right thing and off herself.

 

If it was possible, have proof that she killed Tara and have her end up in jail for life.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Puddy

[Betweenyouandme]

A more fitting end for Gemma would have been to lose Nero because he knew she killed Tara, lose her grandsons because CPS is preventing her from any and all contact with them, lose her father to Alzheimer's and lose her son to a Mayhem vote.

All she would have? Chuckie and Unser. Both of them added together would still come up short for her. She would then have to live with her past or do the right thing and off herself.

If it was possible, have proof that she killed Tara and have her end up in jail for life.

Au contraire. Gemma could track Milo down and begin a simple of life of transporting tomatoes and thus be back in the garden. Edited December 4, 2014 by Betweenyouandme

[Puddy]

Good one.  She would do that.

[lacEdoll]

Gemma would have to see CPS take those boys away from her.  And then see Mayhem befall Jax right in front of her. And then see Nero just drive off after saying absolutely nothing to her...

 

And that still would not be enough to begin to make her pay for everything she's done.

[Joan van Snark]

In response to the person who asked "who is tending that garden?"--

 

I thought the same thing.  As an avid gardener myself who can't get roses like that even with hours of pampering, there ain't no way a garden would look like that with no one having lived in the house for years.  Another question--who is maintaining the house?  It looked absolutely spotless.  Are they really paying someone to come in and dust, vacuum, and air it out.  And if grandpa Gemma has been in a home for years now, why are they paying the electricity on an empty house just sitting there?

Which leads me to---where does Gemma get her money?  She can't be making that much at Teller Morrow.  I don't see how they have any customers when there are bombings and shootings there all the time.  Does she get some kind of tribute payment from Jax from the illicit activities?  I guess her house was paid for, but someone is paying for those nice vehicles and all those black blouses, leather pants, and belt buckles!

[Chaos Theory]

Unser was by no means an evil man and I have no idea how or why anyone is getting that he is. He was an inperfect man who got into bed with SAMCRO to keep the peace long before Jax was born.

Tara being murdered came out of nowhere. She was briefly thought to be informing on the club; but that was found to be untrue in about an episode the problem was no one told Gemma "the keeper of secrets." In order to keep hus wife from serving what was going to be some serious jail time Jax turned himself in and again no one bothered to tell Gemma. Then again i am not sure it would have mattered Tara being a rat was just an excuse anyway. She was committing a far worse crime.... Taking Gemma's grandsons out of Charming.

Still I thought the scene between Gemma and Jax was very moving. It fit well with them and their relationship. I was crying at the end. I know...:stupid allergies.

[Disraeli Ears]

I think Happy was the one who killed Alvarez's son, with an icepick.

 

 

Yep. At a picnic. Dressed as an ice cream man (or popcorn guy...something like that). With a little paper hat on. Soooo Happy. He was still Tacoma/thinking about going Nomad at that point.

 

Who the hell has been tending to that garden?

 

No kidding! When Gemma walked up to the house, I was all "are they paying someone to do the yard work all the time?" Seemed odd, since no one had been there in ages (except for Juice's brief hidey-time there at the beginning of this season).

 

And...did anyone else think the CGI of Gemma's headshot was a little off? I was tired when I was watching it, but something about it made it seem way too obviously fake to me - like if they didn't want that particular shot, they could have made it more believable effects-wise.

[Disraeli Ears]

...and somewhere, cancer is sitting with its head in its hands, sobbing.

 

Well. Lots of checks on the list tonight: Juice, done, Unser, done, Gemma, done, tons of random guys, done. The club at this point is a bunch of serial killers who, with the exception of Happy, are too dumb to know it. All the loyalty oaths and hugging come across as obscene gestures.

 

Jax's expression as he set up Wendy and the boys going to the ranch was priceless. He was literally telling himself that they're going to a farm where they'll be happier. Sweet as it was, I couldn't buy the whole "Nero wants Unser to get Gemma out of Jax's line of fire" to save Jax, though. When you think about it, Nero hardly knows Jax, and every single association he has with him has been disastrous and blood-soaked. If I were him I'd be grabbing Wendy and the kids and low-rider-tailing it the fuck outta Charming, yelling PEACE OUT as I sped by the garage.

 

Charisma Carpenter giving Gem a hard time at the check in! I could see "I saved the world once...well, better finish those forms" in her eyes.

 

Hal Holbrook knocked it out of the park as the God who couldn't forgive Gemma, because he couldn't recognize her. All he had were the memories of before it all went bad. This old man has outlived his entire family--the longest, quietest tragedy on this show.

 

When Jax walked in on Unser I was expecting the old guy to say "Welp, I tried! Good luck or--ya know!" and just walk out the door. But I guess he was tired of waiting on his slacker cancer to finally get motivated and go to community college or kill him, or whatever. 

 

 

 

I dunno, Juice seemed to be suffering plenty in that infirmary. He'd had enough.

 

Poor Juice. I honestly thought he'd kill Tully and then himself but he had to go out a good soldier. The club had not earned that misplaced, horrible loyalty.

 

 

GAHHHH, PLEASE NO.  "C'mon, babe! Third time lucky! You and Nero can teach it to round up all the farm animals into a gang!"

 

Snookums, I would have liked this comment a dozen times if I could have. And not just because you quoted me. ;) "We shall call ourselves the G** D*** Goats."

 

Hal Holbrook was awesome. For some reason*, I always think he is dead until he shows up on my tv.

 

*Because he is 89 years old

[aptharsia]

There was such an anticipation about Gemma's death and when it happened it didn't feel satisfactory. It was such a slow episode but when Jax got to the house, it felt rushed. I think I wanted more dialogue between Gemma and Jax. I also wished they faced each other so Gemma could look Jax in the eye and watch him kill her. Now that I think about it, them facing each other would have been what would have felt satisfied.

 

I think Juice was the kind of guy always wanting approval. When (I can't think of his characters name) Manson whispered in his ear, it felt like a kindness of the approval Juice was always searching for. His death hit the spot, although I felt sad because I love Theo Rossi (I had no idea he was dating the actress who played Polly Zobelle!)

 

I don't see race being the thing Jax wanted changed in the clubs laws. I think it's either about his sons or who gets to carry out the mayhem. Can't wait for next weeks episode, I hope nothing is left up in the air and it feels like the series went out the way it should have.

[sunshine2288]

Chibs seemed to. And BTW, Jax actually at times looked almost relieved that his journey would soon be over.

 

I thought so as well and it made sense. Jax's eyes are open and he realizes all the death and bloodshed are on him. Even though Gemma's lies set the scene, he was the one to pull the trigger. And I think the small bit of soul he has left can't live with that. Killing Gemma was the logical next step, at least in their world, and he knows his days are numbered so living with the guilt won't be an issue.

[lacEdoll]

Whatever Jax wants changed in the bylaws...could it have anything to do with why he wants JT's manuscript?

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

If that's really what Jax requested, it would ring really hollow to me.  True SAMCRO doesn't seem that bad when it comes to racism, but I hardly see Jax caring enough about that to make it his 'dying' wish.  When has Jax ever been shown as some equality crusader?  And what power does Jax have to demand the club laws to be changed just because he agrees to die?

He's not doing it for the "crusader" aspect, but rather because he still cares about SAMCRO; patching in the Grim Bastards will strengthen the club considerably.

 

She was gang-raped by members of LOAN (League of American Nationalists, white supremacists) in the Season 2 premiere. They did so to try to get the Sons to stop dealing guns to blacks and Hispanics. Unser found her and helped her hide it by crashing her car to make it look like she got in an accident. Gemma did not tell Clay or Jax about it until 02x10 (my favorite Gemma scene). The Sons failed with retaliation; it got most of them sent to jail on weapons charges which violated their parole.

They got retaliation on Gemma's rapist (played by Henry Rollins) and were about to take out the Aryan leader (played by Adam Arkin, IIRC) when they got the call that Half-Sack had been murdered and Abel kidnapped.

 

Yes, nobody would have cared if his father was black and this entire destruction of his life started with his letting himself be blackmailed over that.

When Clay and Tig (I think) learned that Juice's father was black, they looked at each other and said "That's still a rule???" Nobody cared.

 

I don't think Jax's limp was a mistake that just got left in - that would be the laziest fucking filmmaking on the planet.  I just want to know what it could possibly portend at this late date.

It may portend something, or it may be nothing more than Charlie Hunnam spraining his ankle or banging his knee ten minutes before they had to film the scene, and the producers not logistically and/or financially able to delay shooting.

[Turtle]

I was pretty surprised when Jax shot Unser, but I can't say that I really minded.  I figured Unser was only alive/ around this long b/c of Gemma anyway.  But I really wanted Jax not to shoot Gemma.  I wanted him to deny that he was just like her when she started in with the whole "this is who we are crap", and instead go off on her about how she ruined his life, his father's life, his son's life, and the lives of so many others, and then leave her to live out her days as a broken lonely old woman.  To me, that would have been coming full-circle, having Jax reject that brutal and cold-hearted way of life, thus rejecting her.  I hated seeing Gemma manipulate him one last time.  It's really a shame that Sutter needed to give his wife a Dramatic And Heroic Death Scene, because the other story would have been much more interesting, I think. 

 

I continue to be disgusted by Sutter's fascination with prison rape.  I get showing it once or twice so that we know it's happening, but it seems like poor* Juice has either been raped on screen, or told he was going to be raped, every episode for weeks.  It's overkill, and I don't understand why they feel the need to keep showing it.

 

*I say poor Juice because, while he's done a lot of despicable things, I felt that he was always totally lost and seeking some sort of love and acceptance, sort of like an abused puppy. 

 

Once again no reaosn for this episode to be so long.

 

Oh, no, there were lots of reasons.  Four minutes of commercials 6-8 times reasons. 

 

I figured Jax's limp was Charlie doing that weird strut-walk that he sometimes does.  It comes and goes, much like his accent and his sense of morality.​

[Artsda]

 

I figured Jax's limp was Charlie doing that weird strut-walk that he sometimes does.  It comes and goes, much like his accent and his sense of morality.

This limp was different, when he first gets off the bed it's like he has no feeling in his leg. Chibs even asks him if he's ok and Jax walks it off and starts limping. But half way through the show the limp/pain seemed to have disappeared. 

[Milaxx]

Oh, and isn't Wendy a lesbian? I remember her telling Gemma about it.

Wendy's never seen partner left her when she went to rehab after she slipped up last season. She mentioned it to Gemma around the time Juice was hiding out in her old apartment.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

It was great to see homeless woman again.  That she was so far away from Charming this time says to me that she is an angel.  Always there to help, but she has to be asked or wanted.   Was it a coincidence that Gemma had a pretty darn good final few hours?  She went to her father and she had a very nice meeting with Milo.  It was a peek into a life of better choices.  I say homeless woman made it happen as a potential catalyst for Gemma to seek redemption.  It seemed to work.

 

Unser's arc is, to me, Sutter's finest work in SOA.  So many posters here have pointed out that he was not horrid or particularly evil.  I totally agree.  Yet, the caution of his tale is that he was in a position to thwart so much of what happened - and chose to step aside and observe.  What is one of the oldest and wisest admonitions of humanity?  For evil to thrive, it but needs good people to stay silent as it is encountered.  This is Unser's story.

 

Another piece of wisdom relative to evil is that humans can't dabble in it with any confidence that they might manage/control it somewhat, or that one will not become wholly ensnared.  Unser was utterly swallowed whole by it.  He may have thought he was savvy and tough enough to handle SAMCRO's evils.  His ill-timed reveals caused outsized horrors to happen, despite his desire for the opposite.  He thought he might make a difference.  Hah!

 

His hubris destroyed him.  Give him credit for intention if you wish.  Just be aware that humanity has been cautioned forever that if we choose bad paths to support intentions, we will fall every bit as hard, if not more so, than if we simply chose evil for manifestly evil reasons.

 

Sutter deserves praise for supporting the above truths found in so much of the best literature through the ages.

 

Now.  I've been thinking...It is said that it costs upward of $50K/year/prisoner to keep one incarcerated in California.  How many bad guys, who would have, or at the very least, should have, been sent there did SAMCRO wipe out, or was the catalyst for their cost-free (to the taxpayers) demise?   It is easily millions in savings.  Easily.  They should throw a parade for these guys!

[La Tortuga]

I think the reason no one suspected Gemma was Tara's murderer, other than her loudly professing her "love" for Tara at every turn, was because Gemma always made a point of threatening Tara (and the hospital administrator) in private, and for some reason Tara never went to Jax and said, "Your mom threatened my life today. Again." I don't know what Tara's reason was for not just telling Jax the truth, but I'm guessing it was the same reason she didn't just leave Charming like she clearly wanted to: her love for Jax and desire to protect his feelings outweighed her better judgment, and even outweighed her survival instinct.

 

But the thing is, I never bought that Gemma loved Tara. I believed that Gemma tried to get along with Tara when it was convenient for her own agenda. So this bullshit "I loved my daughter-in-law" Gemma's been spewing all season has only ever rang false to me, and it should have rang false to Unser the moment he agreed to help Tara set up Gemma for causing a false miscarriage. Their showdown was inevitable, and Jax and Unser had their heads too far up their own asses to see it.

 

I'm not saying Unser "deserved" to die, but for a reasonably smart guy, he sure was an idiot where Gemma was concerned. And Gemma's idiots always get screwed over in the end.

[Dirndl]

Wendy's never seen partner left her when she went to rehab after she slipped up last season. She mentioned it to Gemma around the time Juice was hiding out in her old apartment.

Thank you! I only remember her mentioning it but totally forgot the storyline with the partner leaving her.

[Puddy]

La Tortuga - Yes, Gemma's Cooter of Doom was deadly.  For an old motorcycle mama, she had the knack.  I hope Nero gets away unscathed.

 

 

Cooter of Doom™ courtesy of Ohwell.

[Turtle]

Oh, and isn't Wendy a lesbian? I remember her telling Gemma about it.

 

It's not uncommon for people in rehab to shed all aspects of their previous lives and to "try on" different personalities or identities. For women, especially women who have not had healthy relationships with men or for whom men have been significant players during their addiction, this often means trying out relationships with other women.  Many people with long-term addiction that starts when they're relatively young don't actually know who they are, because everything has been tainted by the drugs.  I think Wendy is not a lesbian, but is somewhere on the sliding scale of sexuality, and in the aftermath of all the Jax bullshit, she turned to a relationship with a woman as a way to distance herself from Jax and from her life as an addict.  I don't discount her feelings for the other woman, but I don't think that relationship means she can't or doesn't want to have relationships with men.   

[Bama]

Gemma's "Cooter of Doom" was apparently so powerful, men don't have to have actual sex with it for it to ensnare them in its curse.

 

Just WANTING to have sex with it makes men fall victim to it.

 

Poor Chuckie and Nero.  They next.

[La Tortuga]

Gemma's "Cooter of Doom" was apparently so powerful, men don't have to have actual sex with it for it to ensnare them in its curse.

 

Just WANTING to have sex with it makes men fall victim to it.

 

Poor Chuckie and Nero.  They next.

 

When Unser died, I thought briefly that it kind of sucked that he didn't get a chance to pass on Chuckie's message of love to Gemma. But then I remembered that Gemma doesn't give a damn about how Chuckie feels, or even Unser; she cares about preserving her image as the badass dispenser of motherly wisdom, and about having people who will make sacrifices and commit crimes and betrayals on her behalf. Feelings within herself are motivations to act; feelings within other people are just leverage she can use. Chuckie's love was wasted on Gemma.

 

As much as I hated Gemma, I will miss analyzing her every week.

[Snookums]

I thought the same thing.  As an avid gardener myself who can't get roses like that even with hours of pampering, there ain't no way a garden would look like that with no one having lived in the house for years.  Another question--who is maintaining the house?  It looked absolutely spotless.  Are they really paying someone to come in and dust, vacuum, and air it out.  And if grandpa Gemma has been in a home for years now, why are they paying the electricity on an empty house just sitting there?

 

 

I assumed the real estate company tasked with selling the house keeps it in shape, but I can't say for the garden. That would require high levels of monies paid out just for maintenance. And the value of the property is going to depreciate considerably now that two dead bodies are stinking up the joint.

 

Gemma. Even in death she pulls everything down with her.

[hatchetgirl]

The actor playing Alvarez coaches my son's baseball team. Compete teddy bear IRL so each time I see him being so bad on the snow, It's super weird

Agree, Gemma dying was beyond lame. Kill the witch already!

[Joan van Snark]

 

The actor playing Alvarez coaches my son's baseball team

Wow, that is like--really awesome!  Do you ever get a chance to chat with him about the show? Are you in LA?

[terrymct]

They got retaliation on Gemma's rapist (played by Henry Rollins) and were about to take out the Aryan leader (played by Adam Arkin, IIRC) when they got the call that Half-Sack had been murdered and Abel kidnapped.

 

That one still annoys me.  They could have left two guys at the grocery store to go in and kill the Aryan leader, while the rest of them rush off to the marina to watch the boat pull away (while not thinking of calling the Coast Guard or the cops).

[Duke2801]

Charisma Carpenter giving Gem a hard time at the check in! I could see "I saved the world once...well, better finish those forms" in her eyes.

 

 

Yeah I think it's a bad sign that I felt more emotion seeing Cordelia Chase and Vic Mackey making cameos than I did seeing Gemma, Unser or Juice bite it.  OK, I may have felt a tiny twinge of sadness for Juice. 

 

Like others have said, Gemma's death was wholly unsatisfying. What she deserved was to see Jax die in front of her (without forgiving her, natch) then live out the remainder of her years in a prison cell with NO visitation and NO relationship with Nero or her grandsons.

[RedHackle]

The scene with Gemma and her dad was heartbreaking...Hal Holbrook knocked that out of the park.
D’accord.  Hal Holbrook is a national treasure.  His scene from a few seasons ago when Gemma was sending him into the home made me cry like a little girl. 

 

What WAS the unwritten rule Jax wanted abolished?

I too was thinking he wanted them to end the ban on black members, not for Juice, but so the Grim Bastards could get patched over.  But now I’m wondering if it was something else – guess we’ll see.

 

Did Jax ever find out Gemma's complicity in JT's death? It's all so far away at this point. Not that it would matter.
I had thought at some point he had finished reading JT’s book so he did know, but I was terribly disappointed that Gemma didn’t just go ahead and tell him once and for all.  JT could only suspect that she was going to kill him – she could have confirmed it for Jax.  I thought it was a mistake that she didn’t.  Even though Jax specifically asked her about the manuscript. 

And fpr Unser not bothering to own up to the fact that his slip of the lip was what set Gemma on Tara in the first place, what a cowardly bullshit move. It would have made perfect sense for his character, in one last ditch attempt to save Gemma for him to tell this to Jax, in order to try to deflect blame from her.  This also would have made Jax killing him a bit less...random.

 

I think the reason no one suspected Gemma was Tara's murderer, other than her loudly professing her "love" for Tara at every turn, was because Gemma always made a point of threatening Tara (and the hospital administrator) in private, and for some reason Tara never went to Jax and said, "Your mom threatened my life today. Again."
Not quite; remember a few seasons ago when Tara pulled that heinous play from Gemma’s book, and set Gemma up - when she slammed herself into the desk causing a faked miscarriage?  At the time, I thought ‘damn, that was even worse than anything Gemma has pulled”. I have no memory of Tara ever letting Jax know she had faked the whole thing. That was one of the many reasons I never for a second bought the idea that Jax didn’t suspect Gemma in Tara’s death from the beginning. 

 

What made Breaking Bad a great show, and Walking Dead a pretty damn good one, is paying attention to details.  What turned Nip/Tuck from a guilty pleasure to one of the stupidest shows ever was the writers and actors giving up.  And I think that’s what’s happened – despite Sutter’s claims to the contrary, I think he’s been phoning it in for a while.

One of many details that’s been a huge problem for me; when Jax slammed an 8-ball into Wendy while she was in recovery and she not only forgives him for that, she’s now back together with him?  I’ve known women who are bisexual and lean towards one gender or another at different times in their lives so I’m willing to overlook that.  But forgiving someone who stole your sobriety?  No chance.  As a person in recovery, Sutter bloody well knows better.

This show started out as pretty good, and has just turned so awful.  I’m actually glad we’re down to one episode.  Sutter, you need to stop pretending the show is still good.  Please.  It’s embarrassing.

[SunnyBeBe]

IMO, Unser deserved to go down.  I haven't been able to stand him for a long time.  Anyone who loves Gemma after seeing what she is like, deserves it.  I have no sympathy for him at all. He knew better.  

 

I don't think that Jax should feel bad for killing Gemma, even though she was his mom.  lol  He took out a cold hearted, evil psycho killer. He had to.  She was not the kind who would have wandered around homeless, living in misery for the rest of her days.  She would have rebounded by some way or another and wormed her way back into the lives and hearts of innocent people, including the grandsons and Nero.  Nero....OMG..the guy had so much potential and they turned his character into a pathetic, whipped little puppy.  Not attractive to me.  When he cried over Gemma, I wanted to just slap some sense into him.  RUN for your life idiot.  It's a miracle you got away alive.  lol

 

It's difficult for me to think of any of the characters that I don't despise on the show, except for maybe the kids.  The rest who think that SAMCRO is awesome just makes me go WHAT?  

 

I think as a viewer I, was so insulted when Tara was murdered, that it turned me against Sutter.  If he cares so little for his characters and fans, then I don't have much respect for him.  His bias in favor of the Gemma character took a lot out of the show, IMO.  Big difference in how Tara was left on the floor and how Gemma was left looking all lovely.  

 

So as Gemma said, even in third grade she was preaching her right to bear arms.  lol  Oh, she was a genius child too.  

Edited December 4, 2014 by SunnyBeBe

[Febgirl]

 

 

So as Gemma said, even in third grade she was preaching her right to bear arms.  lol  Oh, she was a genius child too. 

 

     Yeah, but she only got a B+, guess she was able to rationalize that, too!

     

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, another point about Unser being so dense.  Juice says to him that Gemma holds the key to Tara's death.   Then Juice clams up. So.....Uncer is totally perplexed by this statement.  Gemma holds the key, but yet, Unser has no suspicion of her?  Please......I agree about the idea that Sutter just gave up...or maybe caved in. I'm not sure how you get that stupid.

[Chaos Theory]

I think Gemma's death was VERY satisfactory. I am not sure what everyone was wanting. If they wanted anything else they were never going to get it it. I loved the line "this is who we are:" and in the end it could be used for Gemma, Juice and Unser. In the end they all got to die who they were. For better or worse.

I don't understand the concept of hate watching a television show. It seems like a waste of time to me. I like this show and always have. It has never been brilliant but it has been intense evocative and brutal, it has been one hell of a ride.

I for one will miss it.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[catrox14]

Ugh. Screw you Sutter. No trip down memory lane will make Gemma sympathetic.

I hate that she ended up dying in her childhood home. It was too nice. She was still selfish to the end by going to see her father and disrupting his life for her own gratification and remorse. I was so hoping Jax would let her be arrested or let her just stay on the run and eventually be murdered by some common thug. That would have have been a fate worse than him killing her.

It pisses me off that she essentially won and still controlled Jax when all is said and done. He only shot her when she gave him permission.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

That one still annoys me.  They could have left two guys at the grocery store to go in and kill the Aryan leader, while the rest of them rush off to the marina to watch the boat pull away (while not thinking of calling the Coast Guard or the cops).

I always assumed it was so they could bring the character back later if need be.

[terrymct]

I always assumed it was so they could bring the character back later if need be.

 

I'm sure you're right, but darn didn't that seem stupid.  Yes, we've been chasing this guy and he's less than 100 ft from us.  Now it's time for us all to leave.

[TigerLynx]

I think Alvarez walks that walk that more than anyone...was it season 1 or 2 when he killed his own son after the Mayans attacked the Sons and Clay told him the only way to squash the beef was by bloodshed on the Mayans' end? That was one of the first episodes I ever saw and I just remembered my jaw hanging open for like 5 minutes.

 

 

Yes, like other posters have said, Alvarez set his son up to be killed by Happy, and Alvarez watched it happen.

 

Alvarez also pointed out to Jax in this episode, that while it’s horrible that Gemma killed Tara, everything else that happened on the street because of Gemma’s lie, won’t just go away.  It will have to be dealt with.  There isn’t going to be any, “Oops, my lying psycho mommy killed my wife, not the Chinese, so the gang war is over.  Let’s all play nice now.”

 

Unser, Nero, and Wendy all ratted out Tara’s original escape plan to Jax and Gemma.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Yeah, but she only got a B+, guess she was able to rationalize that, too!

But that was ultimately her point; all roads were always leading to this house and this moment. She is what she is. This is what we are.

[Duke2801]

I think Gemma's death was VERY satisfactory. I am not sure what everyone was wanting. If they wanted anything else they were never going to get it it. I loved the line "this is who we are:" and in the end it could be used for Gemma, Juice and Unser. In the end they all got to die who they were. For better or worse.

I don't understand the concept of hate watching a television show. It seems like a waste of time to me. I like this show and always have. It has never been brilliant but it has been intense evocative and brutal, it has been one hell of a ride.

I for one will miss it.

 

I think most people, including me, have articulated more or less exactly what they wanted from Gemma's death. 

 

If I've invested 6 or 7 years in a show that used to be good -- and characters that once had depth and layers -- I think that I'm perfectly within my rights to complain about a shitty final season. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't see how she could argue her life course was inevitable. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that life with SAMCRO was horrific, dangerous, immoral and destructive.  It took a lot of fighting and hanging on to become that degenerate or maybe she's right.  Maybe she is the spawn of Satan.  lol 

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

But I really wanted Jax not to shoot Gemma.  I wanted him to deny that he was just like her when she started in with the whole "this is who we are crap", and instead go off on her about how she ruined his life, his father's life, his son's life, and the lives of so many others, and then leave her to live out her days as a broken lonely old woman.  To me, that would have been coming full-circle, having Jax reject that brutal and cold-hearted way of life, thus rejecting her.  I hated seeing Gemma manipulate him one last time.  It's really a shame that Sutter needed to give his wife a Dramatic And Heroic Death Scene, because the other story would have been much more interesting, I think.

Agreed, KS' acting seemed more suited to a soap opera, and the death itself, was anticlimactic and unsatisfying for reasons articulately stated by others. Gemma should've been duking it out with the ladies on death row for murder one.

 

If I've invested 6 or 7 years in a show that used to be good -- and characters that once had depth and layers -- I think that I'm perfectly within my rights to complain about a shitty final season.

This, see final season of Dexter. Speaking of which if Sutter dexters me next week, ugghhh.

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

I don't think that Jax should feel bad for killing Gemma, even though she was his mom.  lol  He took out a cold hearted, evil psycho killer. He had to.  She was not the kind who would have wandered around homeless, living in misery for the rest of her days.  She would have rebounded by some way or another and wormed her way back into the lives and hearts of innocent people, including the grandsons and Nero. 

This.  Gemma was poison; she had to die. 

[RedHackle]

 

don't understand the concept of hate watching a television show.

I was with you on this, completely.  I mean, just until this past season of this show.  I'm  so completely baffled by people that hate-watch a show and then post here  bitching about it that I almost posted something myself asking people who don't like a show to maybe start their own thread, so those of us that like a show don't have to see it. 

 

Like I said, that is until jus this season of SoA.  Now I fund myself hating the show but unable to stop watching because of how much I once liked it and the hopes that somehow this next episode will turn it back around. I  did the same thing with the True Blood - loved the first 3 seasons, then hated it for the next 4.  I don't know why I couldn't give up hope on it - same with SoA for me.  Especially odd when there is one random good episode in a season of suck.  (I.e., "Faith and Despondency" for SoA or "May be the Last Time on TB).

 

I don't know if this helps.  I know it's frustrating to hear someone bash a show you like, just wanted you to know I understand both sides of it.

[Gudzilla]

 

This, see final season of Dexter. Speaking of which if Sutter dexters me next week, ugghhh.

Then my dream will come true................ LumberJax !!

 

Seriously though just the fact that Gemma is gone (as unsatisfying as her end was to me) and won't be around the kids makes me think Dexter will retain the worst finale title.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Dexter Final Season was just awful and I don't think anything will ever be worse then that ending.   SOA ending is at least making sense considering the story.  The writing may be problematic; and you can say what you want about Gemma's end; but the writing (for the most part) makes sense.  Now that being said I could have done without the five hour episodes.  Accused Dingo needs her beauty sleep and when I don't stay up to watch.....people at work spoil me.  I overhead about Gemma dying before I had a chance to watch.  Stupid work people.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Chaos Theory]

I was with you on this, completely.  I mean, just until this past season of this show.  I'm  so completely baffled by people that hate-watch a show and then post here  bitching about it that I almost posted something myself asking people who don't like a show to maybe start their own thread, so those of us that like a show don't have to see it.

Like I said, that is until jus this season of SoA.  Now I fund myself hating the show but unable to stop watching because of how much I once liked it and the hopes that somehow this next episode will turn it back around. I  did the same thing with the True Blood - loved the first 3 seasons, then hated it for the next 4.  I don't know why I couldn't give up hope on it - same with SoA for me.  Especially odd when there is one random good episode in a season of suck.  (I.e., "Faith and Despondency" for SoA or "May be the Last Time on TB).

 

Its not that I don't understand snark. I use it on other shows like Pretty Little Liars.  I love that show to pieces but it is VERY snarkable.  As for Dexter and its final season; that just didn't work for me on many levels; the writing being just one of them.  Something about the final season of Dexter changed and i could never put my finger on what it was.  I always thought the writers were trying to be clever and that is never a good thing.  However SOA is working for me on just about every level.  The writing is what it always was.  I don't see lack of depth in the writing.  What I do see is an increase in violence but that is a necessary offshoot of the violent act of Tara's death.  Her death changed everything in SAMCRO.   I loved the scene between Gemma and Jax and thought it was a beautiful piece of writing and was utterly happy with it.  I don't think Sutter could have done better with that; and yes I know that ALOT of people wanted the scene to go down differently but I am not sure if really could have and been belieable.  Jax is way past the point of no return and I  don't think he had much of choice in the matter even before his mother gave him permission to kill her.  If he had gone back to Charming and said she was still alive any number of people would have seen it as a sign of weakness and killed him, probably his entire family and quite likely the club.  Yes Sutter could have had Gemma be nasty but again what would have been the point of that?  The scene worked better for both of them accepting the moment for what it was....the final end.

Now you can take all that from someone who has always loved Gemma as a character and for awhile actually hoped she would survive the series not because she deserved to but because I thought this was the prefect show for the villain to win.  Since this show is a tragedy I thought the ultimate tragedy would be for Jsx to die not knowing who really killed Tara and for Gemma to get to raise her grandsons to be who she wanted them to be.  To have Abel be in SAMCRO and little Tommy grow up to be a doctor like his mom.  To fast forward a decade or so and have Tommy just getting into medical school and Abel just getting into SAMCRO and having Gemma walk into the room with that Gaudy table to clean up after the meeting and old and tired sit down in the President's chair to rest......and dies in her sleep.

That is the tragedy.  Gemma dying in her sleep.

But hey I loved Sutter's vision too. 

Can't wait to see who dies next.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[Kris117]

Well wow. That was quite an episode. 

 

I loved that both Juice and Gemma were SAMCRO to the end. It was so fitting, Juice didn't let the Chinese dictate any orders even if it would have meant him possibly living longer. Even at that point of where Juice was, he was still about the club. He went to Marilyn Manson and point blank told him what the chinese were up to, that he knew Jax wants him to kill him and just let him eat his pie then do it. Juice went down loyal to the club (aka Jax's) wishes.

I was hoping that Juice would take out Tully at the same time Tully took him out, but it was not to be. But as you say, it makes sense that if the club didn't tell him to do it, he wasn't going to do it.

 

Jax's expression as he set up Wendy and the boys going to the ranch was priceless. He was literally telling himself that they're going to a farm where they'll be happier. Sweet as it was, I couldn't buy the whole "Nero wants Unser to get Gemma out of Jax's line of fire" to save Jax, though. When you think about it, Nero hardly knows Jax, and every single association he has with him has been disastrous and blood-soaked. If I were him I'd be grabbing Wendy and the kids and low-rider-tailing it the fuck outta Charming, yelling PEACE OUT as I sped by the garage.

I thought the show demonstrated that Jax and Nero were close to each other several times, both from a business and personal standpoint. Nero initially started working with Jax because of Gemma, but I think he grew attached to Jax even outside of being his mother's son. I felt that from Nero towards Jax not long after the character was introduced.

 

I hope before Jax dies he gets the paper work in order so his boys are legally given to Wendy.

I was wondering that as well. I had forgotten until someone mentioned upthread that Tara had made arrangements, but would they have any worth after her death, with Jax as the surviving parent? It would be horrible if Abel went to Wendy and Tommy went to Tara's family.

 

Did Jax ever find out Gemma's complicity in JT's death? It's all so far away at this point. Not that it would matter.

I don't think he ever did, because neither Gemma or Tara ever talked to him about it. He may be about to find out, now that Gemma told him about the journal. On the other hand, the speculation that JT's journal will reveal that JT killed himself makes sense.

 

When Unser died, I thought briefly that it kind of sucked that he didn't get a chance to pass on Chuckie's message of love to Gemma. But then I remembered that Gemma doesn't give a damn about how Chuckie feels, or even Unser; she cares about preserving her image as the badass dispenser of motherly wisdom, and about having people who will make sacrifices and commit crimes and betrayals on her behalf. Feelings within herself are motivations to act; feelings within other people are just leverage she can use. Chuckie's love was wasted on Gemma.

 

As much as I hated Gemma, I will miss analyzing her every week.

And it didn't bother her a bit to see Jax shoot Unser, even though Unser was another one who loved her, as well as Abel and Tommy.

I don't see him as deserving of his death. I think his problem was thinking that he could influence both the club and law enforcement into coexisting peacefully. However, the club is in a very different place from where it was when he was sheriff, as is the sheriff's office, especially after the deaths of two sheriffs. When he finally made up his mind that protecting the boys was his first priority, not the club or Gemma (I'm thinking of last season, when he helped Tara),it was too late. Then Sheriff Jarry giving him some investigating responsibility had him leaning toward the law rather than the club, but he was in too deep, and couldn't influence the club as much as he thought.

It makes sense to me that both Jax and Gemma are calm at this point—Jax is preparing to die, just as Gemma did. I like that parallel between mother and son. I think that Gemma was having a hard enough time living with the knowledge that she killed Tara, and with the stress of hiding all of that from Jax, so that his knowing about it came as a relief. The same thing goes for Jax. He is responsible for dozens of deaths (and more to come, when Connor's crew goes down), and has spent so much time strategizing and manipulating and killing, and for what?

When Gemma walked out into the garden, and I could see how lush it was, I also thought, "Who is doing the gardening?" I suppose everything was slightly overgrown, but given how long the house has not been lived in, it doesn't seem likely that it would look that good.

I was afraid that when Nero heard where Gemma was, he was going to delay his trip to the farm in order to track Gemma down. I'm glad he sent Unser.

[Madding crowd]

I was sick for a few days, so just catching up! I really don't believe Gemma would allow Jax to kill her. I think she would have found some guy to take her in, and spend the rest of her days, stoned and mumbling about everything she lost. In the end, I don't believe she cared about the club, her son, or grandkids more than herself. And no son should have to kill his own mother. Jax could have/should have ordered someone else to do it.

 

Now that so many have died, I don't want to see Jax die and it will seem almost anti-climatic to me. Seeing him banished from the club and leave Charming with the boys would be too tame for a Sutter series, but I would like it. I don't care for Wendy and part of it I never thought Drea could act. I have some leftover love for her from the Sopranos, but her idea of acting is to twist her face around and I never feel real emotion.

 

I felt bad for Juice and didn't need to see him get raped some more. The idea that we need to see rapes every other episode is just disgusting. Juice was not innocent, but he based everything he did on his family which was the club.

 

Of course Unser had to die while trying to protect his love. Gemma is a cool character if for nothing else than middle aged women don't get to be cool, but she wasn't a person who should inspire so much love.

 

Lastly, I still don't get why any of these other groups (Irish, Brown, etc), need Jax and Samcro brokering deals for them. Once you are out, you should have no say in anything. 

 

Also, it seemed odd to have Jax develop an injury with one episode left, and I swear to God if Sutter tries to pull out some cancer that was undisclosed I'm going to scream.