Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[Trini]

For some reason I thought Patty was going to be a series regular -- since her description makes her seem like a replacement for Eddie. Of course, they could upgrade the actress later in the season.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Trini

[Ruby25]

Is she really somebody they would keep around past this season though? I thought we've pretty much been told her only purpose is as a stalling love interest for Barry befor he and Iris get together. I don't see what her use would be once that's over. She doesn't even have any other purpose in the comics, which is why she was never a fan favorite.

 

If they want/need another woman on the show it should probably be Linda, since she's supposed to be Wally's true love, and we know he's going to be a series regular.

[phoenics]

Linda is going to be on the show this season... so there's that. And she and Iris are going to be friends as well...

[Starfish35]

Iris's mother has been cast.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/the-flash-iris-mom-vanessa-williams-joe-west-1201605693/

"The Flash" has found Mama West. Variety has confirmed that “Candyman” and “Melrose Place” actress Vanessa Williams — not to be confused with the “Ugly Betty” and “Desperate Housewives” star of the same name — has been cast as Iris West’s (Candice Patton) mother and Joe West’s (Jesse L. Martin) wife in season two of The CW drama.

Williams’ debut episode is being kept under wraps, as are any other details about the previously absent matriarch.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Starfish35

[Maverick]

 It would have been so much more awesome if it was the other Vanessa Williams.  

[phoenics]

It would have been so much more awesome if it was the other Vanessa Williams.

I so agree - that's what I thought when I heard the casting. I like this Vanessa too - but I think the more well known Vanessa Williams actually looks more like Candice Patton.

But hoping this will be good though - I'm sure it will.

[Trini]

 It would have been so much more awesome if it was the other Vanessa Williams.  

 

But she IS the other Vanessa Williams! (Heh. Sorry; there's this blog I follow that has dubbed her The Other Vanessa Williams to differentiate her from Vanessa Williams.)

[tarotx]

Well Google calls her Vanessa A. Williams and the more famous one Vanessa L. Williams. 

[CabotCove]

For some reason I thought Patty was going to be a series regular -- since her description makes her seem like a replacement for Eddie. Of course, they could upgrade the actress later in the season.

 

If Patty can be a useful member of CCPD and be Joe's partner, I dont see why she cannot stay after her and Barry are done. 

Doesnt mean Linda cannot stay too, they both can be on a recurring basis, that would close this show's gender gap a bit.

 

It would have been so much more awesome if it was the other Vanessa Williams.

 

I for one think this one they cast looks more  like Candice, I can't believe this VW can now play a mom to a 20 something old kid. Time flies, I last saw her on Soul Food, always found it funny that they had the exact same name. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by WildcardC

[VCRTracking]

I remember this Vanessa Williams first from The Cosby Show where she was the girlfriend of one of Theo buddies and she was an acting student and she was such a Theo's friend. He had given her a watch as a present that unbeknownst was stolen. She was hilarious because her character was always "theatrical" and hammy. When she gets arrested she's like "How dare you! This is an INVASION of privacy!(makes big arm sweeping gesture). As she's taken away she goes to her boyfriend she says "Dennis our love will keep me warm." She doesn't share the screen with Bill Cosby so you can just enjoy watching her scenes without the whole "Ugh I'm watching a rapist" thing.

 

Then a few years later she was on Melrose Place for just the first season when it was boring before Heather Locklear showed up and it got good. Vanessa along with the blonde Southern white girl who was aspiring to be an actress both got fired just when the shot got really enjoyably trashy.

Edited September 30, 2015 by VCRTracking

[driedfruit]

For some reason I thought Patty was going to be a series regular -- since her description makes her seem like a replacement for Eddie. Of course, they could upgrade the actress later in the season.

 

Assuming her relationship with Barry lasts only the season, I can't see why they would elevate her to a regular. I expect the person positioned mainly as Joe's partner to feature as a recurring character, like Singh. Between the guest stars and crossovers and the action, the writers struggle to write substantial material for the regulars they have and I can't say I'd be interested in the prospect of Patty, a character whose future I'm not invested in, take on a larger role. Linda Park or Jesse Quick are better options for permanent additions now that we know Wally West will be featured as a regular. 

[quarks]

My guess is that it will be pretty standard television practice - if Patty turns out to be popular, she might be upped to a regular, regardless of her relationship status with Barry. If viewers hate her (hi, that horrible DJ over on Arrow), she might be quietly taken off the show by mid season, even if she's in a relationship with Barry - they'll just break up and that will be it.  

[driedfruit]

My guess is that it will be pretty standard television practice - if Patty turns out to be popular, she might be upped to a regular, regardless of her relationship status with Barry.

 

If Patty turns out to be popular I would fully expect the network to extend her relationship with Barry and use it as a chance to delay WestAllen and play out the love triangle. I can't see them keeping her and not doing this. 

[Ruby25]

If Patty turns out to be popular I would fully expect the network to extend her relationship with Barry and use it as a chance to delay WestAllen and play out the love triangle. I can't see them keeping her and not doing this. 

God, I really, really hope this doesn't happen. The obsession with delaying for its own sake is inexplicable to me. I don't see the value in it at all. There can be a steady couple on a show like this (which isn't meant to be a soap opera, right?). The romantic back and forth is like, the worst part.

[quarks]

If Patty turns out to be popular I would fully expect the network to extend her relationship with Barry and use it as a chance to delay WestAllen and play out the love triangle. I can't see them keeping her and not doing this. 

 

It's been done on television before - largely in comedy, admittedly, but still. For that matter, Flash is doing it this season - bringing back Linda Park without, as far as we know, extending her relationship with Barry. And Arrow, after somewhat belatedly realizing that yes, fans did like Sara and didn't want her tossed on a dumpster, is going to the point of bringing her back from the dead, without extending her relationship with Oliver.  

 

Regarding a delay for Barry and Iris - in the finale, Iris, despite knowing Barry's secret, knowing that he's in love with her, and knowing that in a future timeline they get married, said, screw destiny and all that and chose Eddie. That suggests to me that the show is not in any hurry to put Barry and Iris together, regardless of what the fan response is to Patty. 

[driedfruit]

It's been done on television before - largely in comedy, admittedly, but still. For that matter, Flash is doing it this season - bringing back Linda Park without, as far as we know, extending her relationship with Barry. 

 

Linda was always going to return. She is the iconic wife of Wally West who is going to be a regular this season, not some random brought in solely as a love interest for Barry. Her character's original purpose was to become Iris' close friend and coworker and that's what she's going to be doing. 

 

In any case, neither Linda or Sara are currently regulars on Flash or Arrow. A regular is a character who features in nearly all the episodes and a character the writers will have big plans for seasons to come. The only time we've seen a popular guest spot become a regular is Felicity. I'm doubtful Patty has any chance at that kind of popularity, but if she does, I'm certain her main purpose will be as a love interest. If the plan is to delay WestAllen for a long time, all the more reason to keep Barry with the hypothetical popular, newly elevated regular.

Edited October 2, 2015 by driedfruit

[quarks]

 The only time we've seen a popular guest spot become a regular is Felicity. I'm hard pressed to think Patty has any chance at that kind of popularity, but if she does, I'm certain her main purpose will be as a love interest.  

 

We've seen it three times on Arrow, with Felicity, Malcolm and Slade, all introduced as guest stars, and later upped to regular status, and sort of seen it with Ray, Sara, Captain Cold, Heatwave and Firestorm, all introduced as guest stars and now regulars in a new show.  Admittedly, it seems that at least some of the Legends characters were introduced with the hope of a spinoff already in mind (Ray, Firestorm, possibly Captain Cold and Heatwave), but with Sara it seems to have been entirely thanks to fan popularity and fan response to her "death." Arrow also brought back some characters that fans liked for return appearances - Nyssa, Donna Smoak, Cupid, Deadshot, and Tommy. Flash brought Clancy Brown and Tina McGee back - technically twice with Tina McGee.

 

I have no idea if Patty will be a popular character or not, so to play it safe, I'm going to go with "maybe."

[driedfruit]

Repeat appearances isn't the same as regular status. The latter requires a longstanding commitment and willingness to give the actor and character a large, permanent place. 

 

Is Malcolm now a regular on Arrow? Slade never was. Spinoffs are a whole other discussion, irrelevant to my point about what role Patty would occupy on the odd chance she becomes a regular on Flash. 

[Starfish35]

John Barrowman was a regular in season three and I think he still is in season four. Manu Bennett was a regular in season two.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Starfish35

[VCRTracking]

If Patty turns out to be popular I would fully expect the network to extend her relationship with Barry and use it as a chance to delay WestAllen and play out the love triangle. I can't see them keeping her and not doing this.

 

 

It's been done on television before - largely in comedy, admittedly, but still.

 

 

The most famous being Frasier Crane on Cheers, who ended up getting his own spinoff after the original show ended. Second would Reverend Jim on Taxi.

[driedfruit]

John Barrowman was a regular in season three and I think he still is in season four. Manu Bennett was a regular in season two.

 

Fair enough. But as grey scaling villains, they both had clear places that could've been further explored if Arrow had better writers. 

[quarks]

Fair enough. But as grey scaling villains, they both had clear places that could've been further explored if Arrow had better writers. 

 

It took me a bit of time to figure out why this was bugging me, so sorry for the late response here, but - and let me state upfront that I'm not at all sure if this is the implication you meant to make - it sounds like you're arguing that the showrunners could find Slade and Malcolm (men) clear roles, but not Patty, unless Patty was a love interest.

 

And here's the problem I have with that (apart from not being entirely sure that the showrunners could or did find Malcolm a clear role, but that's a complaint for the Arrow forum): that makes it seem that you're arguing that Arrow and Flash can find any number of roles for men, but for a woman, the only role is that of love interest. Patty's coming in not just as a love interest, but also as a professional cop, which means that I think Flash can do various things with her, especially since Flash has already brought up (mostly on Arrow and Vixen, but somewhat on its own show), the legal issues of dealing with metahumans and the way Team Flash may have been messing that up in various ways. Or alternatively, Flash can give her superpowers of some kind and throw a mask on her. Or have her decide to join ARGUS and be the representative of that group in Central City. 

 

While I don't think that these shows are exactly models of feminism, I will say that Arrow has managed to find roles that aren't just "love interest" for various women characters, even Laurel, and is now bringing back a love interest from the dead and making her a regular on a new show (which, given indications that the first few episodes of both Arrow and Flash will be focusing on launching Legends, does suggest, as you put it, "...a longstanding commitment and willingness to give the actor and character a large, permanent place." I'd say the lead on a new, very hyped show counts as that commitment). Flash hasn't quite managed that yet, but if Laurel could be moved into a non-love interest role, however clumsily, then I see no reason why Flash can't move a woman into a non-love interest role.

 

But again, I also think this is all academic until Patty actually shows up on screen. I'm just a bit leery of dismissing any woman as "just" a love interest. That might be what she turns out to be, especially since only two of the seven Flash regulars are women this season as well, but in the interests of possibly improving that, I'd like to at least not assume that the only role a woman can play on this show is "love interest."

[driedfruit]

It took me a bit of time to figure out why this was bugging me, so sorry for the late response here, but - and let me state upfront that I'm not at all sure if this is the implication you meant to make - it sounds like you're arguing that the showrunners could find Slade and Malcolm (men) clear roles, but not Patty, unless Patty was a love interest.

 

It has nothing to do with male vs female, but the characters themselves and how interesting they are (or aren't). Patty is a minor character I personally don't have much interest in seeing a great deal of. For her to play a large role in a Flash series, it'd be a miss IMO. It's not something I'd get excited for. Her being introduced as primarily Barry's love interest is nothing to get excited about either. On the show, she's basically the female Eddie, who was boring enough, and without the mystery of being a Thawne. 

 

On the other hand, Slade is one of the most badass DC characters and I assume Malcolm is supposed to be Arrow's version of Tommy, a pretty cool villain. Those are characters I would be interested in taking on large roles. You could gender bend them to female and that wouldn't change how I'd feel.

 

While I don't think that these shows are exactly models of feminism, I will say that Arrow has managed to find roles that aren't just "love interest" for various women characters, even Laurel, and is now bringing back a love interest from the dead and making her a regular on a new show (which, given indications that the first few episodes of both Arrow and Flash will be focusing on launching Legends, does suggest, as you put it, "...a longstanding commitment and willingness to give the actor and character a large, permanent place." I'd say the lead on a new, very hyped show counts as that commitment). Flash hasn't quite managed that yet, but if Laurel could be moved into a non-love interest role, however clumsily, then I see no reason why Flash can't move a woman into a non-love interest role.

 

 

Laurel is supposed to be BC, she's a huge character. Doesn't matter who she's romancing or whatever, that's a big role with a great deal of potential. Same with Speedy. Sure they screwed up her origins, but she's got a lot of potential. You're comparing big characters to a minor character. And you're making it a gender issue where it doesn't have to be. If instead of making Wally a regular, they made another minor character a regular, say some other male member of Barry's CSI team, I'd be equally annoyed.

Edited October 5, 2015 by driedfruit

[CabotCove]

I'd like to at least not assume that the only role a woman can play on this show is "love interest."

 

Agree, if a character becomes an ex love interest of Barry Allen it doesn't mean  they have to go away. Patty has her position  at CCPD and is Joe's new Partner,  her being with Barry shouldnt be treated as her only contribution to the show. If they end up writing the character off, I hope they have a better reason than "she and Barry broke up". 

 

Linda is only coming back because she can now be Wally's love interest? she could have been worked in the show as Iris' coworker and friend in season 1. A female character's value to a show shouldn't be based on her just being a love interest. I hope the Flash can do this better in season 2.

 

Laurel is supposed to be BC, she's a huge character. Doesn't matter who she's romancing or whatever, that's a big role with a great deal of potential.

 

I dont think Arrow is the best example of a female character moving into a non  love interest role. Being BC means little, when she is still treated like a Team Arrow outcast and getting peanuts for screentime. That shows they see little to no value in the character after her L.I role despite being BC. They reluctantly keep her, I want The Flash to want to keep an ex love interest character and see value in her skills or other means than her initial love interest role.. Have her and Barry having a good and respectful relationship after a break up. I think of Smallville actually, Chloe, Tess and Lois were at one point not love interest to male characters or ex love interests and still got to play a big role in the show. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by WildcardC

[Ruby25]

I just don't know if that will happen with this character, because there was no other reason to bring her on except to "complicate Barry's love life" (those were Andrew Kreisberg's exact words). And unlike Sara on Arrow, who was also Black Canary, there just isn't a role for Patty Spivot besides that. I mean, they turned her from a lab assistant into a cop for the show, just so they could figure out some way she could be in on the action at all.

 

I guess if people LOVE the character, they could figure out how to keep her, but given that she has no other role here, once Barry and Iris happen, I'm having a hard time seeing how she'd still fit on the show.

[CabotCove]

There is a role for "normal" people who don't wear costumes in the show. They still can help save Central City which Patty will be doing as a cop. But I agree there is no telling what will happen with the character, too early.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, I mean...maybe they could pair her up with Cisco later or something. But even then, it's hard to see her becoming a big part of the gang, imo. The "normal" person who's already been established as essential to the show is Joe. Everyone else plays a significant role. Laurel on Arrow is still Black Canary, despite being pushed out as a love interest, so that's why she stays. I don't see where the interest would be in Patty Spivot the cop once she's not dating Barry. That character had zero fans in the comics, both times they tried her out. That's why she didn't stay around long.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Ruby25

[driedfruit]

There is a role for "normal" people who don't wear costumes in the show. They still can help save Central City which Patty will be doing as a cop. But I agree there is no telling what will happen with the character, too early.

 

There's a role for normal people as recurring characters, but over saturating the show with them as regulars isn't necessary. Look at how Eddie was treated. His regular status was a mess of hanging plot points and purposelessness.

 

This conversation got deviated some,  but my main point is, Flash has done a noticeably poor job with its supporting cast and I don't want to see them take many new regulars. Patty is just an example. It's fine if she stays recurring and plays her part as Joe's partner, the way Singh and the Joe's friend the prosecutor do.

 

Linda is only coming back because she can now be Wally's love interest? she could have been worked in the show as Iris' coworker and friend in season 1. A female character's value to a show shouldn't be based on her just being a love interest. I hope the Flash can do this better in season 2.

 

Wally is going to be introduced as a teenager, so it's going to be a couple of seasons before Linda becomes his love interest. Nor is there anything inherently wrong in a character being a "love interest" the same way it's not wrong for Joe to be Barry's "father figure". What's important is how Linda and Iris and Wally and Barry are all connected, they're family. That makes their interactions rich and significant to the plot. In any case, Linda's primary purpose this season will be as Iris' friend and coworker, and hopefully the writers incorporate the reporters into the main plot.

Edited October 6, 2015 by driedfruit

[CabotCove]

Nor is there anything inherently wrong in a character being a "love interest" the same way it's not wrong for Joe to be Barry's "father figure".

 

No one said there was anything wrong with that. And just because Wally/Linda happened in comics, doesn't mean its a sure thing in the tv show, too many variables involved. So lets wait and see. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by WildcardC

[wingster55]

Where was it said that Wally was a teenager

[cambridgeguy]

It's mentioned in an EW article about season 2 that Wally will start off as "an ordinary teenager", which hopefully doesn't mean he'll be an annoying twerp.  It does fit the general dynamic of the Flashes back when Wally was still a youngster: Jay is the experienced and respected elder, Barry's the main man, and Wally's the up and comer.

 

It will be interesting to see how they juggle all of the new characters while not losing focus on the current set.  Maybe they'll go down the usual CW path and start killing anyone over 40 (plan that funeral now, Joe).

[Jazzy24]

Are we going to meet Jay in tonight's episode of next week's?

[Trini]

Probably in the last 30 seconds of the premiere.

[driedfruit]

No one said there was anything wrong with that.

 

 

Funny I got the opposite indication.

 

Whether Wally/Linda happen or not is the same as arguing whether Iris/Barry will end up together IMO. It's most likely barring surprises. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by driedfruit

[jay741982]

Anybody watching the Premiere? I think Jay has been introduced already but not sure

Edited October 7, 2015 by jay741982

[quarks]

For those of you who missed Arrow tonight, it had a slight spoiler for Flash that I think we all could have guessed already: it seems, barring any changes in the timeline, that Barry will still be trying to deal with Zoom six months in the future. 

[Ruby25]

Six months from now? So this death won't occur until like, April? I thought they were filming this funeral episode last week.

[quarks]

I think the death might be either the very end of February sweeps, or March/April - as the lead up to Arrow's usual "having screwed around all season, let's go get the bad guy!" May sweeps episodes.

[phoenics]

Ugh - I guess I have to go watch the Arrow premiere. I dvd'd it, but I'm traveling so I'll catch it when I get back I guess. Because I'm so confused by this funeral, lol.

Did they play it like "Revenge"?

Edited October 8, 2015 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

The producers said they haven't decided who died yet. 

 

It was a short scene. Oliver standing at a grave, Barry zips up and says sorry he missed the funeral. Oliver says "Zoom", Barry says "Zoom". Oliver says he used to blame himself, now he just going to kill him. Then Oliver says he wants to be alone and Barry leaves. Oliver touches the tombstone and sheds a single tear.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[Ruby25]

They haven't decided yet? Oh, come on. I hate when people do stuff like put in an actual funeral scene when they haven't even decided who's supposed to die yet.

 

But imo, the only person it could possibly be is Lance. I can't think of anyone else on Arrow who's expendable from the cast but still a major character, but not so important that Barry would miss the funeral for. Maybe Thea, but killing off all of Oliver's family seems extreme. Plus they said this time the death would stick, because they want to put stakes back on the show.

[Sakura12]

I'm guessing Lance as well because Oliver wasn't overly emotional. If it was anyone on Team Arrow, he'd be more of a mess.

[jaytee1812]

I'm guessing Laurel or Thea, they won't kill off a man.

[phoenics]

I'm thinking its Diggle or Laurel. Surprised if they kill off Laurel but eh. I wouldn't mind. Well I would from a canon perspective but otherwise not.

Also I don't think its Lance because why would Barry be there? It has to be someone from team Arrow. Maybe Roy.

Edited October 8, 2015 by phoenics

[Ruby25]

Why would Barry miss the funeral if it's someone more important than Lance?

[Sakura12]

Barry doesn't have to know the person to go to a funeral. He could be there to support Oliver. 

[jaytee1812]

Why would Barry go to support Oliver? I wouldn't call them friends.

[phoenics]

Why would Barry miss the funeral if it's someone more important than Lance?

Well if it is Lance - why would Oliver be standing there still and not Laurel (or Sara)? Lance dying as a reason for more Oliver man pain?

No thank you.

Ronnie and Eddie as man pain for Barry was enough... we barely get to see the women grieve their own partners - now we'd get Oliver going all man pain over someone he wasn't even that close to and whose daughters he screwed over? Nope, doesn't compute.

[jaytee1812]

It does compute for these shows, nothing beats out man pain, although not sure Diggle or Joe are really indulged as much. White women are allowed pain, but only over men, if it's about anything it's treated as trivial. Black women are not allowed their own emotions on these shows.

Says something about these shows that the only man I can imagine them killing is Diggle. I didn't watch Arrow, mostly because I hate Oliver, but is Barry the only one at the funeral. Why wouldn't the rest be there?

Edited October 8, 2015 by jaytee1812

[phoenics]

It's sad that we're having to put contingencies on our ideas for who might die based on the writing disabilities these shows have. It should be an awesome surprise w.r.t. who dies - but instead it's gonna be all about man pain - which is kinda why I guessed Diggle in the first place - but seriously - why is Oliver the only one there?

Maybe it's that girl he ran into at Jitters - who lives in Central City and who had his kid.