S05.E08: Coda

[Door]

Beth finally gets aggro and it's to stab an armed, trained policewoman wearing kevlar? Using only teeny, tiny, suture scissors? I was/am no fan of Beth (like NO fan) but give her a better death than that bullshit. That didn't even make sense. Hell, I would have even bought it if she wanted to give Dawn revenge scars matching her own healing wounds - but noooooo. 

 

I still cried when we got everyone's reaction to her demise. Because I am a baby and easily swayed, even though I've been bitching about Maggie's Bethnesia the whole time. 

 

I wanted Michonne to confront Father PP SO BADLY. Yell at him for bringing the walkers back to the church or something. Anything. He more than anyone else, ironically, needs the Come to Jesus talk about the ZA. Thanks to him he endangered the whole group and lost them their sanctuary....which brings me to my next point:

 

If I were Rick Grimes, I would have taken over the hospital. Commandeered a floor or something. Why leave that? You have electricity and laundry facilities and a rooftop garden and a DOCTOR and you turn that down? Jesus fuck, WHY? Send the bad cops down the elevator shaft and start over! It seems as good an offer as any in this world. Certainly much better than everyone living on a busted fire truck, which is all they have now (THANKS AGAIN, FATHER PP).

Edited December 1, 2014 by Door

[Pestilentia]

 

A poster asked this earlier in the thread, so I will co-sign:  what is all the rage about Lennie James/Morgan?  I don't mind him, the brief times that we've seen him but I don't get why there is so much hype and excitement over a character that has been featured in two episodes.  Is there a movie or show or SOMETHING (that clearly I missed) that has earned him such a loyal and earnest following?  Last we saw him on this show, he was cuckoo for cocoa puffs, do we feel that he's picked up some therapy along the way?  Just askin.

Maybe it has always been a huge coincidence but the episodes he appeared in are among the best the show has ever given us.

Aside from my liking and identifying with the character I suppose he is simply a good writing charm  :)

 

And we need writing.  Desperately.

When the death of a character like Beth does not affect me even a little, something is wrong.

Axel's death had much more of an impact on me than did hers.

[Timetoread]

He was on a show called "Jerico" and was absolutely fantastic.  I know that's why I'm so excited every time he comes on the show.

 

I watched Jericho.  He's a good actor but I don't get excited just to see his face.  I loved Clear too (probably my favorite ep of TWD) but I find Morgan/Rick a bit TOO much.  Like I could feel them "acting".

[momlyd]

They are the fruit of the rare Southern Shovel Tree (inexpicablis horticulturis plotdeviceii) , much the same as firearms and batteries grew in Rick's prison garden

 

Kikismom, this is wonderful!!

 

I usually give the benefit of the doubt about sudden tool appearance - I figure there is a garage or shed nearby that someone just broke into and scrounged up what was needed. If the group is in a fairly well populated area, it would be easy to do. Out in the countryside? Look for those trees!!

[LadyArcadia]

Maggie has lost Hershel, Beth, her mother and half-brother

 

 

...and of those, how many were killed by humans?

 

Crazy.

[Samx]

Someone previously mentioned that it was mushy that Daryl got to retaliate for Beth's death (and that it should've been Beth killing Dawn and then getting killed in retaliation). For a hot second, I thought Beth's plan was to grab Dawn's gun and blow her brains out - that would've been fantastic and a great way for her to go out but that would've started a bloodbath. I'm not a fan of how Beth died but it felt right for Daryl to be the one to end Dawn. He had formed the biggest recent attachment to Beth and put the rescue mission in motion. Although it's possible the cops would've been perfectly okay with Beth killing Dawn - actually, most likely - TPTB obviously wanted Beth gone so there it is. 

 

ITA about Maggie/the writing - a throwaway line about Beth would've made all the difference - but regardless, Maggie's reaction was devastating. No, it didn't feel as earned, but Lauren Cohan did a good job with what she was given. I'm over Tyreese's bullshit. I'm over Gabriel's bullshit. I think the problem is this show thinks it's better than it is - just because you have some characters clinging to whatever threads of humanity they have left does not mean that those characters are well written. The pacing and writing needs to improve for those scenes to have any impact. The Tyreese/Sasha scene? Total waste of time.

[TattleTeeny]

A poster asked this earlier in the thread, so I will co-sign:  what is all the rage about Lennie James/Morgan?  I don't mind him, the brief times that we've seen him but I don't get why there is so much hype and excitement over a character that has been featured in two episodes.

 

Obviously, I can speak only for me, but I'm just curious, man! What's he up to, and is he OK now? I feel like they could have held onto this Morgan business until the end of last night's episode, really, for as much as it played into the half-season.

[morgankobi]

I am also in the camp (no, not DinnerBell) that found most of this, after the first five minutes, pretty boring. I don't mean slow, I mean boring. To compare, I found the last part with Morgan more compelling, and I could have watched more. The actor did better with the silence and the editing and directing were better. Introspection can be interesting, but I didn't find that to be the case with FPP.

 

I'm wondering if Morgan will now head toward DC, and how he will then find Rick (which I assume is inevitable), since I doubt Rick will now go to DC.

 

For those of you who know the show inside and out: do we know the significance of any of the items Morgan put on the alter? Thanks!

[kj4ever]

I am also in the camp (no, not DinnerBell) that found most of this, after the first five minutes, pretty boring. I don't mean slow, I mean boring. To compare, I found the last part with Morgan more compelling, and I could have watched more. The actor did better with the silence and the editing and directing were better. Introspection can be interesting, but I didn't find that to be the case with FPP.

 

I'm wondering if Morgan will now head toward DC, and how he will then find Rick (which I assume is inevitable), since I doubt Rick will now go to DC.

 

For those of you who know the show inside and out: do we know the significance of any of the items Morgan put on the alter? Thanks!

I think they'll still head that way because didn't Noah say he was from Virginia?  I figured that was the whole reason for the hospital/Beth stuff, to get Noah to them so they could head out to Washington.  Noah said they had walls and blah blah earlier in the season, so maybe that'll persuade the rest to follow him.

[catrox14]

...and of those, how many were killed by humans?

Crazy.

Not sure I follow what you are getting at here.

[Spartan Girl]

I knew it was going to be Beth.  Characters that are either stupid, useless, or crazy are never long for this show.  Case in point: Shane, Andrea, and Lori.  And the fact that this episode was named "Code" should have been a dead-giveaway that this would put an end to her singing once and for all.

 

Maggie's reaction was heartbreaking though.  And at least in her last moments of life, Beth made herself useful by stabbing Dawn -- though Daryl gets credit for finishing her off.

 

I loved Rick in the beginning.  Not gonna lie, I cheered out loud when he ran the guy over.

[Statman]

For those of you who know the show inside and out: do we know the significance of any of the items Morgan put on the alter? Thanks!

 

Just my opinion, but:

 

Rabbit foot - gave him luck.

 

Goo Goo cluster - reminder of his son

 

Bullet - I think he saved that bullet to kill himself but something kept him from doing it. Stumbling upon the church further cements his faith and he can finally let go of the bullet.

 

 

[Mindymoo]

I wasn't a Beth fan by any stretch, but I was sad to see her go out like that. Still, it was kind of stupid. She could have gone for the jugular with those surgical scissors, as opposed to the shoulder. She had just pushed a guy down an elevator shaft, and Dawn had just shown her true colors, and you're not going to go for the kill? Silly, silly girl. Pardon me. Stupid, stupid writers.

 

I'm pissed that two of my favorite characters from The Wire are two of the most incompetent, sniveling douchebags on this entire show. Really, Cutty/Tyrese, you knew you didn't kill Martin? Really, Carver/Father Gabriel? You lead an entire herd back to the church, where there is a teenager and an infant? Good thing Michonne is skilled with her katana, even while Judith is wrapped up in a papoose on her back. At least D'Angelo/Bob went out in a somewhat dignified manner, and was a likable character.

[LilySilver]

Bob's leg didn't look like it had that much, if any, meat taken off of it!  The Termites sure didn't eat much.  And I am peeved for the second consecutive week at Rick and The Gang for not taking any of those bulletproof vests before going into the hospital.  And I can't find any of these people hot because I just keep thinking how awful they must all smell.  

 

This show makes me obsess over such weird things.

Agree with all of this.  The thing about Bob's leg bothered me on the night of the big BBQ--seemed like all of them (were there, like, 5 or 6 termites there?) had a big hunk of meat.  Does a human calf really have that much meat on it? I thought at the time...  And now we see the leg and you can't even tell it's been eaten off of...Annoying.

 

Usually I am just grossed out by how dirty they all are, but in this episode, the Rick Grimes' determination and focus were hot enough to overcome the (imagined) stench as well as my revulsion at that beard.  Hot, hot, hot.  

 

I loved the kiss on the forehead, reclaiming Beth into the group.  Darryl's reaction along with Rick's gutted me, but honestly the greasy hair and the filthy face are getting close to making Darryl's facial expressions impossible to read.  The image of Darryl holding Beth's small, dead body had me sobbing, though.

 

SO, the nail through Gabriel's foot was just so that he'd be slowed down enough not to be able to outrun the herd of walkers, thus leading them back to the church?   Hum. So I guess he won't be dying of tetanus after all....

 

I wondered if Morgan had gone to the prison to find Rick (didn't Rick leave him directions?), then came upon Terminus and followed the marks from there?  Kirkman's comments on TD made me worried--I was nothing but happy to see Morgan again until Kirkman suggested maybe he could be dangerous to our group.

 

As for the talk vs. action--for me it's not that I don't like talk or character development, as I love both when well done.  But as mentioned above, action can provide great character development when done well (as EVERY SECOND with Rick was in this episode) whereas endless jabber about the latest big-bad storyline has me in tears. Not in a good way.  I just didn't care about the caricatures at the hospital.    

 

I do love the shot of the clean hospital hallway, with all of the wards choosing to stay put rather than go with filthy (hawt) Rick and filthy (just filthy) Darryl and their rag-tag, dangerous looking band.  In fact that's the one thing I've enjoyed about this season, is being forced to look at my beloved peeps through the eyes of strangers.  Gabriel is absolutely terrified of all of them (or was, until he realized that they had done what they had to do in reaction to what this world has become).  Looking at them from his perspective, they do seem to be monsters.   And in the hospital hallway, the stark difference in existences is on display.  Do you want to claw and scratch and have blood all over you like those people?  Or do you want to be clean and "safe" and put up with some bullying....and beatings....oh and maybe an occasional rape?  For those not enduring the actual rape, the choice was probably an easy one.  "I ain't going ANYWHERE with those people!"

 

ETA: count me in for the "just can't" with Tyreese.  He is going to get someone killed. Again. And this time it might be someone I care more about than Bob.

 

The big blue eyes though.  I might have to rewatch just the Rick scenes. Alone. By myself.

Edited December 1, 2014 by LilySilver

[Boofish]

I like and root for Morgan for some of the same reasons that I root for Rick. He was simple, kind and still had some hope and something to live for. Even when he went a bit la vida loca, I found it compelling and believable. I think the group in it's current state needs someone like Morgan to balance out the current dynamic. I love Daryl but I think Morgan would be the "heart" of the group if that makes any sense. Daryl and Carol are hardened at this point, Abraham is tough but lacks compassion, Michonne is sensible, Sasha is just angry and tired and the rest are just the Chris Kirkpatrick (Tyrese)/Howie Dorough (Glen)/Michelle Williams (Tara). They are there and you are aware they are there but they have no significant impact other than providing them with the numbers

[ChipBach]

My kids were mad at me last night.  I opened the episode with "No way in hell Beth lives".  They were "no way dad"...  It seemed pretty obvious to me, especially when we kept getting all the Talking Dead teasers about a special guest.  

 

If I were in Rick's crew, I would have shot Beth.  They took great pains to make the switch as bloodless as possible and she commits an act that could have ended with everyone shooting everyone.  They could have simply said "no" to the new Dawn plan and appealed to her "troops" to do the right thing or melt a cap in Dawn.  Either way, I thought the scissor-stab was as dumb as an idea as I've seen in a long time on the show...

 

Beth had leverage on Dawn too - she could have said "I don't know Dawn...  wait...  where is O'Donnel"?  That would have shut her up...  Yep - get out of here, keep Noah, nothing to see here...

[SoSueMe]

Maggie is a not a teen character.  Neither is Tara.  Beth, while played by a woman who is not a teen, is presented as a teen.  Big difference.  Anyways the show gave the worst sort of viewer a pleasure.  I know that is not the intent but sadly that odd twisted hatred of young female characters is rewarded.

 

Of course there is that comical denial that the hatred is not due to the typical, predictable hatred of teen female characters.  If anyone believes that, I have a park in New York I'd like to see you. 

Wow, at the risk of being outed as 'the worst sort of viewer' I just want to state that I'm glad that if a character had to go it was Beth. The character was badly written and badly acted in my opinion. I have nothing against young female characters or actresses. As someone on another thread pointed out, the young actress who played Sophia did a more heart-wrenching, believable job (even as a walker) than EK. Ditto the actresses that played Mika and Lizzie.   

[Pete Martell]

He's a fan favorite and was in two of the more highly regarded TWD episodes.  Other than that, I don't him.  I'd be afraid if I were him:  If he does join the cast full time, he's likely to get marginalized.  Unless you're a Rick or Daryl (or, sadly, the Governor) you only get about one episode per season to do something other than stand around.  It's like now with Abraham -- he's going to be the firetruck driver. 

 

I feel like the show has opened up quite a bit in terms of giving other people airtime, especially compared to what Rick used to get (I'm not really complaining - I love Rick but I think not being onscreen in every episode has done the character a favor). Abraham has been lucky, in that a brand new character with no ties to anyone got an episode all about him, and several other episodes. Frankly, I think Abraham has received more airtime than he's deserved, especially last season.

 

If he becomes a part of the group, he will definitely be marginalized, but that's not atypical, as everyone but Daryl is marginalized at one point or another. 

 

I can't see him ever staying around for long, but the times we do get to see him, I think he adds and would add to the show, as he's such a mirror to Rick, and has such an interesting journey of his own.

[LilySilver]

So I guess the big bads we keep having to endure are to function as character foils---"Here's where the Governor went wrong...Here's where Terminus cracked....Here's Dawn's overreaction/weakness...." as opposed to the fine tuning Rick, and the group along with him, have had to do.  Yet all of those "bad" folks were able to sustain reasonable safe, stable existences more effectively than our group has done.  I assume I'm supposed to come to the conclusion that being good is hard, and the only way to be "safe" in this world is to be evil...

 

I just hope the show isn't always about the next Big Bad, though I suspect it will be.  And they can't be on the road forever, so I'm interested to see if/where they make a new "home."   How many times can the show explore the question of "how far is too far?" and "can you come back?"    I really am interested to see where they take it, but I don't like nor trust Kirkman, and I do still have that "Lost" PTSD thing happening, so I'm wary as well and not getting my hopes up, especially after the past few episodes which have been uneven at best, imo.

 

Who am I kidding? Rick shaves and Daryl gets a bath, I get a good solid 5 minutes of Michonne in an episode, and all is forgiven.

Edited December 1, 2014 by LilySilver

[JackONeill]

One thing that troubled me, and forgive me if someone's already addressed this: When the priest came back to the church with the herd in tow, why didn't he scurry back under the church to get to his secret hole, instead of going to the front door and hoping it wasn't blocked, which it was?  Yes, he was hobbling, but the herd seemed to be a bit behind him and I think he would have had enough time to go under the church.  It bothered me.  Then again, many things bothered me about this episode.

[Boofish]

One thing that troubled me, and forgive me if someone's already addressed this: When the priest came back to the church with the herd in tow, why didn't he scurry back under the church to get to his secret hole, instead of going to the front door and hoping it wasn't blocked, which it was?  Yes, he was hobbling, but the herd seemed to be a bit behind him and I think he would have had enough time to go under the church.  It bothered me.  Then again, many things bothered me about this episode.

I think it was supposed to be symbolic. All the people who scratched at the door and begged for their life and were ignored and now he was in that same position. I believe he said something along the lines "let me live with what I've done. I know now I was wrong"

[JackONeill]

Lilysilver-  Kirkman concerns me because he seems delighted whenever someone like Rick takes his craziness a step further.  So, I think the show's going to keep giving us more and more outlandish "ripping-out-throats" scenes, instead of our crew finding a safe place with a whirlpool and microwave oven. 

 

I mean, it'd be a totally different show if Rick had accepted the cops offer to move into the hospital.  All those clean clothes and strawberries and record players and art, and on and on.  No, I see our band always on the road (with brief respites) because that's the only way Kirkman can get his kicks, instead of writing a show with nuance.

[NoWillToResist]

If I were Rick Grimes, I would have taken over the hospital. Commandeered a floor or something. Why leave that? You have electricity and laundry facilities and a rooftop garden and a DOCTOR and you turn that down? Jesus fuck, WHY? Send the bad cops down the elevator shaft and start over! It seems as good an offer as any in this world. Certainly much better than everyone living on a busted fire truck, which is all they have now (THANKS AGAIN, FATHER PP).

 

I am curious to know CDB's next move. Washington is out, all their prior sanctuaries are gone. I can understand not wanting to stick around the hospital in light of recent events (even if the people left are good) but surely they could set up shop in another Atlanta building...?

[bmoore4026]

Count me in as one of those who didn't feel that much emotional impact in Beth's death.

 

It wasn't the acting, which I thought was good, or the writing.  But in show where the cannibalistic living corpses of human beings are killed with visceral abandon to the point of near glee, the sudden death of a living character just doesn't feel what the creators were aiming for.

 

So much death on this show, so many loathsome human beings killing characters we're supposed to care for in such brutal ways, I'm numb to it now.

 

Yes, the last scene with Daryl carrying poor Beth's body and Maggie just falling to the ground in absolute grief was sad, but it didn't move me to tears.  I'm sorry, show, but I've seen sadder scenes on TV.

[CletusMusashi]

Interesting that Rick chose this week to clean up his appearance a little bit. His beard is very neatly lined, for example. Maybe it was before, but he always had so much dirt and gore on himself that you couldn't tell. At the very least, that indicates he washed his neck before this episode. Also, the beard hair itself is less Mansonesque. He appears to have spent some time with a brush.

I would like to know: why the change?

1. He plans to return as a triumphant hero and then bang Michonne until her hair stands on end.

2. He's actually been deeply, secretly in love with Beth for quite some time, and tidied up in order to impress her.

3. One of the hostages gave him a makeover. Or, more likely, demanded that Noah do it.

4. Tyreese's masculinity is receding even faster than we realized, and he gave Rick a makeover.

5. Rick is still pining for Lori, and heard that he was about to meet a wishy-washy but self-centered brunette with a horrible personality, well-toned ass, obsession with laundry duty, and history of associating with homicidal unstable rapists.

6. Somebody intelligent in the group, perhaps Sasha, convinced him that the hostage exchange might go better if he didn't go in there looking like a barbarian on crack. This is actually, in my opinion, the most likely hypothesis. I'd like to have seen that part of the episode, though. And don't tell me there wasn't room, because they have all the time in world for the Adventures of Father Pee Pants or the Tyreese Sucks Now Hour.

Edited December 2, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[nachomama]

In the preview Michonne says something is 100 miles? is that the next desitination/plan?

[LadyArcadia]

Not sure I follow what you are getting at here.

 

Meaning, it's the zombie apocalypse and Maggie has lost most of her family to humans, not zombies.

[SimoneS]

When Rick shot Lamson and told him to shut up, I was convinced that he was feeling the same that I have been about these villains giving these long lectures rationalizing their bull shit. I wanted to punch out Dawn when she was trying to rationalize how she was running the hospital. I wonder if the real reason she killed him was because he was determined to be a good person and treat people decently. I could see Dawn and her crew being unhappy if Hanson would not let them hold people against their will, beat them up, and rape women at will.

 

Lilysilver-  Kirkman concerns me because he seems delighted whenever someone like Rick takes his craziness a step further.  So, I think the show's going to keep giving us more and more outlandish "ripping-out-throats" scenes, instead of our crew finding a safe place with a whirlpool and microwave oven. 

 

I mean, it'd be a totally different show if Rick had accepted the cops offer to move into the hospital.  All those clean clothes and strawberries and record players and art, and on and on.  No, I see our band always on the road (with brief respites) because that's the only way Kirkman can get his kicks, instead of writing a show with nuance.

 

You really think that Rick could have stayed in that hospital with people who raped, enslaved, and beat on others? Noah would have told him what they had done. Staying with those people was a non-starter. Rick did try to make a home at the prison which was probably their best shot. Of course, Phillip had to come along and try to take it from them, but if it was not Phillip, it would have been someone else.

 

 

I am curious to know CDB's next move. Washington is out, all their prior sanctuaries are gone. I can understand not wanting to stick around the hospital in light of recent events (even if the people left are good) but surely they could set up shop in another Atlanta building...?

 

Staying in a building in a city full of walkers is a death sentence. Where ever Rick and his group eventually find sanctuary, it would have be in location where there are no buildings where walkers or human attackers can hide all around them.

Edited December 1, 2014 by SimoneS

[JackONeill]

 

You really think that Rick could have stayed in that hospital with people who raped, enslaved, and beat on others? Noah would have told him what they had done. Staying with those people was a non-starter. Rick did try to make a home at the prison which was probably their best shot. Of course, Phillip had to come along and try to take it from them, but if it was not Phillip, it would have been someone else.

 

Actually, what I was saying is that the show (TPTB) won't let the group settle down (except for small moments), partly because it gives Kikrman more of an opportunity to show barbarism, which is better done in the "wilds."  I didn't say anything about the prudence of moving into the hospital.

[lulee]

One thing that troubled me, and forgive me if someone's already addressed this: When the priest came back to the church with the herd in tow, why didn't he scurry back under the church to get to his secret hole, instead of going to the front door and hoping it wasn't blocked, which it was?  Yes, he was hobbling, but the herd seemed to be a bit behind him and I think he would have had enough time to go under the church.  It bothered me.  Then again, many things bothered me about this episode.

Boofish covered the symbolism of Gabriel begging to be let in. Action-wise he did seem to be looking for the spot to crawl back in at one point but then saw the herd and hobbled to the front.

[Pestilentia]

 

In fact that's the one thing I've enjoyed about this season, is being forced to look at my beloved peeps through the eyes of strangers.

 

Thanks for this- I hadn't considered it from that point of view and it will give me something to think about if I decide to rewatch.

You've given me hope for the season.

 

 

No, I see our band always on the road (with brief respites) because that's the only way Kirkman can get his kicks, instead of writing a show with nuance.

 

And then you snatched it back away  :)

 

Honestly, I think I could live with outlandish on the road stories if they were better written, though.

I think at least some of my yearning for a bit of settling down might be nostalgia for the good old days back on the farm.

No Big Bad other than walkers and humans interacting with other humans.

It wasn't perfect and God knows it drug on for far too long, but a bit of a sit down and regroup might not be a bad idea.

 

CletusMusashi- I'll take #'s 1 and 6 for the win, please.

 

 

1. He plans to return as a triumphant hero and then bang Michonne until her hair stands on end.

 

6. Somebody intelligent in the group, perhaps Sasha, convinced him that the hostage exchange might go better if he didn't go in there looking like a barbarian on crack.

 

 

LOL

Edited December 1, 2014 by Pestilentia

[Pete Martell]

So I guess the big bads we keep having to endure are to function as character foils---"Here's where the Governor went wrong...Here's where Terminus cracked....Here's Dawn's overreaction/weakness...." as opposed to the fine tuning Rick, and the group along with him, have had to do.  Yet all of those "bad" folks were able to sustain reasonable safe, stable existences more effectively than our group has done.  I assume I'm supposed to come to the conclusion that being good is hard, and the only way to be "safe" in this world is to be evil...

 

It mostly depends on the idea of "safe." Terminus was only safe for a tiny handful of people, as was the hospital. They survived only because of the murder and rape of many other people. 

 

I guess the show has finally started to realize not every other haven has to be razed, and maybe the hospital can improve with Dawn gone, but even then, I question how good most of the people left are.

 

I do agree that the show is starting to ask the same questions over and over, with no real answers. 

[nodorothyparker]

I do love the shot of the clean hospital hallway, with all of the wards choosing to stay put rather than go with filthy (hawt) Rick and filthy (just filthy) Darryl and their rag-tag, dangerous looking band.  In fact that's the one thing I've enjoyed about this season, is being forced to look at my beloved peeps through the eyes of strangers.  Gabriel is absolutely terrified of all of them (or was, until he realized that they had done what they had to do in reaction to what this world has become).  Looking at them from his perspective, they do seem to be monsters.   And in the hospital hallway, the stark difference in existences is on display.  Do you want to claw and scratch and have blood all over you like those people?  Or do you want to be clean and "safe" and put up with some bullying....and beatings....oh and maybe an occasional rape?  For those not enduring the actual rape, the choice was probably an easy one.  "I ain't going ANYWHERE with those people!"

 

This is one of the things I've enjoyed most too and about the only way I can rationalize Father Pee Pants continuing to be a part of our story.  Because some of our group is looking rough, that is when you can see their faces at all (looking at you here, Daryl, and doubt you can see me back through all that hair).  As silly as the standoff in the hallway was with what seemed to be only a half dozen people on each side, I could see the good guinea pig eating doctor and the wards in their clean clothes standing on their freshly waxed floors looking at our gang and thinking "sure, I may occasionally get slapped around or sexually violated here, but good God these people are filthy and scary looking and they want me to go with them?"

Edited December 1, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[Caelicola]

I found it kind of a meh episode, and a meh mid-season finale, but there were some things I liked, so I'm going to keep this as positive as I can.

First of all, I actually liked Beth, and, while not loving her, thought Emily Kinney did a decent enough job, especially in last week's episode. The problem I had with Slabtown wasn't with Beth or with Kinney, but with pretty much everyone else. I didn't want her dead, but what I did like was that her death was so enormously pointless, sudden and frankly stupid, because in my experience death is often like that.

I also liked that they DIDN'T stay at the hospital, because frankly, even on a different floor, as a woman the only way I would have ever been able to sleep would have been if every single weapon had been requisitioned and every single man had been banished/possibly killed. Sorry, but Dawn was only part of the problem, and not the most rapey part. Why should I believe that the two cops -Gorman and whatever his name was who was fed to the Elevator Walkers- were the only rape cops there? No way in hell I'm staying in a hospital full of rapists and rape apologists. So long, electricity, I'd choose not getting raped over you any day.

Last thing I really liked (I'm more conflicted over everything else...) was Lincoln's acting in the whole negotiation-Beth dies scene. I've found him a consistently good actor, with moments of great and moments of WTF choices, but I think he absolutely nailed that whole sequence, and he was pretty much the only reason I was even remotely invested in the last ten or so minutes. Good job, mr Lincoln.

(I think Cohan was also pretty spot on, but it did feel narratively unearned. And as much as I like Reedus generally, and as charismatic and charming as he can be, his big emotional scenes oftentimes leave me somewhere between cold and cringing).

 

Overall, I only really loved three episodes in this mid-season, but I only actively disliked one; three I liked, the other one (unfortunately the finale, so leaving a pretty bad taste in my mouth) I was almost completely unmoved by, in any direction. So, compared to how I felt at this point last season, I'm liking season 5 much better than season 4 so far.

Now give me more Michonne, more Sasha, a more in-character Maggie, less Abraham and Eugene, and make me actually care about FPP, please, I love Seth Gilliam.

Please, Santa, I've been good. (-ish? I didn't eat anyone's leg, at least).

[Boofish]

Rick remembers what it is like to have people barge in your home and try and take it by force. I'm glad they left the hospital even though it is better than anything they could possibly put together.

 

Our group may be raggedy, greasy and at this point have trouble digesting beef but I would have ran faster than Usain Bolt out of that place. I would rather take my chances with a bunch of raggedy strangers willing to put their life on the line for their friends than stay there and be forced to eat lollipops suggestively and be a slave. I bet not one other person there has been a recipient of a rescue attempt. That would have spoken volumes about that group to me.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Boofish

[SimoneS]

Actually, what I was saying is that the show (TPTB) won't let the group settle down (except for small moments), partly because it gives Kikrman more of an opportunity to show barbarism, which is better done in the "wilds."  I didn't say anything about the prudence of moving into the hospital.

 

But the group did settle down for long stretches at the farm and then the prison. Instead of enjoying this, lots of fans bitched that the show was boring and too talky with not enough action so I don't think that the nomadic lifestyle on tv is all on Kirkman. However, I do think that in the comics he throws "barbarism" whether they are on the move or not. There is a relentless nihilism that our survivors confront even as they desperately try to hold on to hope. There are no easy solutions to violent situations that arise no matter how many times they occur. Quite frankly, I love this about TWD.

Edited December 1, 2014 by SimoneS

[CletusMusashi]

Honestly, they could just go back to Terminus. Or the prison. Or Woodbury. And fix the place up. The fire engine can serve as a temporary barrier while you're putting fences back up. Sure, you might have to run from somebody again. But if for a year or so you've got a safe home, take it. It's not like life on the road is any safer.

[Pete Martell]

Actually, what I was saying is that the show (TPTB) won't let the group settle down (except for small moments), partly because it gives Kikrman more of an opportunity to show barbarism, which is better done in the "wilds."  I didn't say anything about the prudence of moving into the hospital.

 

I don't think it's just about showing barbarism, per se. I don't think Kirkman sees Rick as an animal or wants people to see Rick as an animal. I do think there are certain thematic questions that at this point are sort of a crutch for the show. I think the show may also be worried viewers don't want to see the group in one place, because of all the backlash over the farm. 

[Watcher0363]

I do not know if Morgan is crazy or not. But anyone, and I mean anyone who leaves a perfectly good Goo Goo cluster behind as some sort of sacrificial offering to God or gods in the middle of the ZA. Is definitely not right in their mind.

[blackwing]

I find it odd that Maggie didn't spend any time at all wondering about Beth, or talking about her with Glenn or others.  Then when Michonne tells Maggie that Beth is alive, she's all "oh yeah, I have a sister that I've completely forgotten about!"

 

I'm not too torn up about Beth, never liked her all that much.  If she really had gumption she would have tossed Dawn down the elevator shaft as well and claimed that Dawn and the other guy got into a fight and took each other out.  It was obvious from the way the female prisoner cop said that it was all about Dawn that nobody would have cared too much.  Beth is stupid, why didn't she stab Dawn in the neck?

 

I am happy to see that Sasha is alive.  Every time I see Sonequa Martin Green in the "Also Starring" credits I got nervous that it meant she was just temporary.  Melissa McBride and Emily Kinney were formerly "also starring" and got promoted.  I thought the same would be true for her.  Why did the guy who plays Abraham immediately get starring credit but not her?

[JackONeill]

But the group did settle down for long stretches at the farm and then the prison. Instead of enjoying this, lots of fans bitched that the show was boring and too talky with not enough action so I don't think that nomadic lifestyle on tv is all on Kirkman. However, I do think that in the comics he throws "barbarism" whether they are on the move or not. There is a relentless nihilism that our survivors confront even as they desperately try to hold on hope. There are no easy solutions to violent situations that arise no matter how many times they occur. Quite frankly, I love this about TWD.

 

Agreed.

[kj4ever]

I think it was supposed to be symbolic. All the people who scratched at the door and begged for their life and were ignored and now he was in that same position. I believe he said something along the lines "let me live with what I've done. I know now I was wrong"

So he had to be in that position to realize he was wrong?  God I think I may hate him worse than Tyreese, and that's saying a lot! 

[90PercentGravity]

Guess you don't want to be a black guy named Bob in the ZA.

 

I enjoyed this episode. I wasn't bored at all and appreciated the character moments.

 

While Beth's death itself didn't have much affect on me, the reactions did. I really like the juxtaposition between the reactions of the two groups to losing a core member.

 

As far as no one leaving the hospital. I think a couple of things are at play there. One is that there is some serious denial with everyone blaming the leader for anything that is going wrong. So they may genuinely think that Dawn being gone means things will be better. Plus they are all a bunch of cowards. There are enough of the "good" guys there that they could have already taken out the bad ones if they wanted to. They probably think they need to those types to keep them safe.

[JackONeill]

I don't think it's just about showing barbarism, per se. I don't think Kirkman sees Rick as an animal or wants people to see Rick as an animal. I do think there are certain thematic questions that at this point are sort of a crutch for the show. I think the show may also be worried viewers don't want to see the group in one place, because of all the backlash over the farm. 

 

The only thing I was saying about Kirkman is that he strikes me as someone who likes his action to be more of the "rip-out-the-other's-throat."  I think it's that type of suspense he relishes and thrives in.  (And a lot of the audience likes that, too.  To me, it's the "gamer" mentality.)  As opposed to a more subtly told tale like you used to see in the old Twilight Zones.  I'm not saying every show has to be nuanced, but I like a little nuance every now and then instead of full-speed-ahead, let's-ram-'em mentality.  Maybe he was going for nuance with Herschel's farm and the audience wouldn't stand for it.

[Constantinople]

Better Beth than Carol, but aside from that, it wasn't a particularly enjoyable episode.

 

Much of it seemed contrived.

 

Normally, I try to avoid using that word here since a work of fiction is, by definition, contrived.  But if felt as if TPTB wanted to get CDB on the road again, to off someone from the mid-season finale, emphasize Rick's bad assery, and they didn't much care how that happened, so...

 

• Gabriel runs away and then runs back with a bunch of walkers after him so that the church is overrun,
• Gabriel times it just right so that GREATM shows-up just before Michonne & Co. are about to leave,
• Beth wins a Darwin Award, ZA edition, by confronting an armed police officer, who admitted killing her friend and mentor, with a pair of nail scissors and then pokes said nutjob's bullet proof vest with those scissors,
• Bob the cop is named Bob so that Rick can echo Gareth's remark "You can't go back Bob" before shooting him.  But there's little in the way of parallels between Rick/Gareth, Bob I/Bob II and CDB/Terminus, so the quote makes little sense other than to try to make Rick seem more bad ass.  As if demolition derbying a man didn't accomplish that.  Plus, in the context, Rick's silence would have been more bad ass (and let's not forget that Sasha had to be a total moron in the previous episode for all of this to even occur)

 

TPTB also eliminated any suspense about who would die once Beth's name was mentioned in Maggie's presence for the first time since the Creation, and Maggie was told that Beth was alive.  The only suspense was how Beth would go out, and getting shot after poking someone with nail scissors is so underwhelming that I would have rather watched Beth fall down after Dawn yelled "Bang!" while pointing her finger at Beth.

[Pete Martell]

The only thing I was saying about Kirkman is that he strikes me as someone who likes his action to be more of the "rip-out-the-other's-throat."  I think it's that type of suspense he relishes and thrives in.  (And a lot of the audience likes that, too.  To me, it's the "gamer" mentality.)  As opposed to a more subtly told tale like you used to see in the old Twilight Zones.  I'm not saying every show has to be nuanced, but I like a little nuance every now and then instead of full-speed-ahead, let's-ram-'em mentality.  Maybe he was going for nuance with Herschel's farm and the audience wouldn't stand for it.

 

The farm seemed to be a confluence of factors - budget, stretching a story to its limits (in the comics the Rick/Lori/Shane triangle ended much faster), and exploring themes about humanity and what it means to be a child, and so forth. I don't know how much of a role he had in any of that. I sometimes get the feeling he's only had a larger role the last few seasons.

 

I think one of the problems with TWD is they mistake nuance for people giving lengthy speeches and staring ponderously. It doesn't have to be that way, and sometimes it isn't - I thought a lot of Carl's material last season was very nuanced, while being full of action and drama - but too often it's either shootouts and car crashes, or Dawn having extensive rehash conversations with Beth about reality and hope and order. Or Tyreese yammering to Sasha.

[CletusMusashi]

Excellant post, Constantine, but... must... fight urge... to make "fingerbang" joke...

Edited December 1, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Pete Martell]

 

• Bob the cop is named Bob so that Rick can echo Gareth's remark "You can't go back Bob" before shooting him.  But there's little in the way of parallels between Rick/Gareth, Bob I/Bob II and CDB/Terminus, so the quote makes little sense other than to try to make Rick seem more bad ass.  As if demolition derbying a man didn't accomplish that.  Plus, in the context, Rick's silence would have been more bad ass (and let's not forget that Sasha had to be a total moron in the previous episode for all of this to even occur)

 

I don't really think they had the line as a bad ass moment. I think the idea was more that we're supposed to be concerned with what Rick is becoming. If he is going too far (the central theme of the show, as always). 

 

If they wanted to push this, they would have had Rick question whether his running Bob down and shooting him helped lead to Beth's death, as there was no third cop to exchange for Noah. Instead they seemed to want to be ambiguous, which is fine, but which means that, as has happened several times this season (most notably the church), is what the show seems to intend to be a moral dilemma, a lot of viewers interpret as Rick being a BAMF. 

[MrWhyt]

 

Every time I see Sonequa Martin Green in the "Also Starring" credits I got nervous that it meant she was just temporary.  Melissa McBride and Emily Kinney were formerly "also starring" and got promoted.  I thought the same would be true for her.  Why did the guy who plays Abraham immediately get starring credit but not her?

 

Michael Cudlitz is a bigger name than Sonequa Martin Green, relatively speaking of course. His agent would have been able to negotiate his place in the credits ahead of hers.

[CletusMusashi]

One thing about Beth's weapon... it is possible to stab through kevlar, with a good knife. This may well be a fact that Daryl's mentioned to her. So combine that little bit of incomplete knowledge, add some hope and desperation, and bear in mind that her only knife-fighting experience has consisted of stabbing cardboard-skulled zombies, and she may well have thought that a tiny crappy scissor blade like that would penetrate the vest, and body underneath, as easily and fatally as it would a zombie skull. This doesn't stop it from being wrong or stupid, nor does it excuse her from only being a script-writer away from inciting a two-way massacre, but it does make her belief that she could kill Dawn in one stab understandable.

About the Rick-rolling of Roadrunner Bob... I seem to be in the minority on this one, but I agree with the decision to kill him and be done with it. I don't think offering the bad guys a crippled henchman would be worth much as a bargaining tool. In fact, if they don't want the responsibility of taking care of him they might be even more likely to treat Rick as a dangerous loose cannon who can't be trusted. If he got killed by zombies, well that's actually a thing. I've never actually heard of a dog eating somebody's homework, but zombies eat henchmen like every two episodes in the ZA.

Edited December 1, 2014 by CletusMusashi