S05.E08: Coda

[CarpeDiem54]

I finally got to watch but it took me three tries as I kept falling asleep. I'm usually glued to my TV during this show, not snoozing sitting up on my couch.

I did tear up at the end - for Rick and especially Daryl. Not for Maggie and her sudden hysteria over Beth.

WTF was up with the weird angles used to film the hospital scenes when the Grimes Gang showed up? Everyone looked out of proportion. Like that one woman cop who looked 3 feet tall.

I never saw Morgan and refuse to watch again. When was he shown?

[editorgrrl]

I never saw Morgan and refuse to watch again. When was he shown?

At the very end:

http://youtu.be/NWHs2VIPTeo

[Pete Martell]

WTF was up with the weird angles used to film the hospital scenes when the Grimes Gang showed up? Everyone looked out of proportion. Like that one woman cop who looked 3 feet tall.

 

 

I actually liked the camera angles. I thought they added tension and a sick sense of dread. 

 

I think Eric Dickerson did a lot to make the episode work even as well as it did.

[CarpeDiem54]

At the very end:http://youtu.be/NWHs2VIPTeo

Thank you so much! That wasn't on my recorded version at all. That was better than 95% of the actual show. I just love Lenny James. Great actor!

[CarpeDiem54]

I actually liked the camera angles. I thought they added tension and a sick sense of dread. 

 

I think Eric Dickerson did a lot to make the episode work even as well as it did.

Well, too bad he didn't film the yakking scenes that way. I might have stayed awake laughing at a 2 foot tall Dawn and 8 foot tall Beth.

I did really like the silent scenes when Daryl shot Dawn, Queen of the Douchebags, and the ending when they exited the hospital.

[GreyBunny]

Thank you so much! That wasn't on my recorded version at all. That was better than 95% of the actual show. I just love Lenny James. Great actor!

 

There's a TV show called something like "Train Ride Through Norway."  It's just an hour of watching the countryside pass by from the train's POV.  If there was a "Walking Tour With Morgan" I'd watch that; just watching him hike north, it would be more interesting than most of the rest of the season.

[RedheadZombie]

Just my opinion, but:

 

Rabbit foot - gave him luck.

 

Goo Goo cluster - reminder of his son

 

Bullet - I think he saved that bullet to kill himself but something kept him from doing it. Stumbling upon the church further cements his faith and he can finally let go of the bullet.

 

I like all of these ideas.  I think my DVR cut off some of the Morgan stuff (and things), so I caught it on TTD recording.  What I don't understand was Morgan laughing after he laid those things on the alter.  Was it because he was free from those things?  He didn't laugh maniacally or like he was insane, he seemed to laugh joyfully.  I thought it was because he found the map with Rick's name, but he found that after he was laughing.

 

SO, the nail through Gabriel's foot was just so that he'd be slowed down enough not to be able to outrun the herd of walkers, thus leading them back to the church?   Hum. So I guess he won't be dying of tetanus after all....

 

I found that laughable.  They constantly write these people performing super-human acts, but FFP can't run because a nail poked his foot for about a quarter of an inch.  This man was loaded with adrenaline, IRL people have run on broken legs in an emergency situation.  Even worse, he limped harder while running with adrenaline.

[AndySmith]

RIP, Beth. Your death was representative of your life. Extremely pointless and useless. But the show tells us we're supposed to feel bad about it, because Daryl and Maggie are the feeling the sadz or something.

Ok, Beth did show some growth and became less useless this year a bit of last year. So of course they would kill her off. Which makes me worried for Rosita. But at least Beth was more useful than Reverend Loser and St. Eugene of the Mullet.

 

Luckily he's not a woman, so a fan base can't develop a hatred for the guy.

 

I think there seems to be a developed hatred for Gabriel. I know I hate him.

I'm not sure how we're supposed to feel about Dawn's death. Then again, I never got how we were supposed to feel about Dawn herself. Her character just seemed to be all over the place and not too consistent. Were we supposed to like her? Hate her? Respect her? Pity her? All of the above? None of the above? Oh well, who cares. She is dead now. Moving on.

I almost expected Maggie to say "Beth? Beth who?" when Michone informed her Beth was alive. Too bad they didn't get some time of reunion since Maggie at least remembered who Beth was, and pretended to care about her.

Rick still sucks.

 

 

Shane would've let everyone else die by now.

 

We don't know that for sure. Shane could have evolved as much as Rick has.

 

I'm apparently in a minority that just doesn't get the Morgan excitement/love. Maybe everyone loves the actor from a previous role or something. Morgan was in the pilot ep, he helped Rick. He did a nutso turn in "Clear." I don't find his acting any more or less exceptional than most of the other main characters. What does everyone expect to happen when Morgan finally catches up with our group? Is he going to show them how to change the base metals into gold, or convert their urine into diesel fuel or something?

Amen! Don't give a crap about Morgan. Not sure why we are supposed to either.

Not the worst episode, but this season got off to a good start and just went downhill overall as it went on. Regardless how you feel about Beth, her death itself just seemed pointless, like the writers needed to end the season with someone dying and let's have some FORCED DRAMA! We'll see how things go in February.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AndySmith

[CletusMusashi]

 About FPP's footie-stigmata, I was feeling nostalgic for the good old days of Season 1, when the smell of blood would drive zombies wild.

Edited December 2, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Jeezaloo]

If I were Rick Grimes, I would have taken over the hospital.

With your magic wand? Or your special occasion, only-on-Tuesdays magic wand?

[Pete Martell]

Not sure why we are supposed to either.

 

Considering that fans constantly ask about the character and when he'll be seen again, I can't really blame the show for assuming people want to see more of Morgan. It's similar as to why I know why Daryl will always be the show's main face, even though I am very apathetic towards him and have been for eons.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[CarpeDiem54]

With your magic wand? Or your special occasion, only-on-Tuesdays magic wand?

Easy. Just send the Sgt. Moobs Brigade - Rosita, Tara and Mullet Boy strapped to Abraham's back - into the hospital to clear the way. Hopefully, they'd all be killed along with the cops in the firefight. Then Our Gang could move in.

[SometimesBites]

I've never before felt ambivalent about the mid-season hiatus, but I sort of am, this time. The entire hospital storyline was shockingly flat, IMO. The actor who played Dawn was utterly unconvincing as a menacing force, and every time the hospital characters started arguing, it was like sitting at a bus stop and listening to people get huffy about their friends, that I don't know and don't care about.

 

Beth, Beth, Beth. I was momentarily shocked when Dawn blew the back of Beth's head out, and like others have said, I was moved by the reactions of other characters to the death...a LITTLE. I think Beth was one long stretch of missed opportunity, portrayed by someone who couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag. The most interesting thing about Beth for her entire life on the show was the two Franken-Beth wounds to her face in the last episodes--they looked good on her. I didn't want her dead because I have hostility toward young female characters, either...I just hate it when interesting characters get killed off and a yawner like Beth goes on and on.

 

I still like Maggie, and I blame the writers, not the character, for the weird blandness she showed in the face of Beth's disappearance.

 

The reason I LOVE Morgan is because a) He was the one who saved Rick Grimes from wandering the streets in nothing but a hospital gown and a WTF expression, and B) his performance in the episode "Clear." THAT is acting!

[CarpeDiem54]

I've never before felt ambivalent about the mid-season hiatus, but I sort of am, this time. The entire hospital storyline was shockingly flat, IMO. The actor who played Dawn was utterly unconvincing as a menacing force, and every time the hospital characters started arguing, it was like sitting at a bus stop and listening to people get huffy about their friends, that I don't know and don't care about.

 

Beth, Beth, Beth. I was momentarily shocked when Dawn blew the back of Beth's head out, and like others have said, I was moved by the reactions of other characters to the death...a LITTLE. I think Beth was one long stretch of missed opportunity, portrayed by someone who couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag. The most interesting thing about Beth for her entire life on the show was the two Franken-Beth wounds to her face in the last episodes--they looked good on her. I didn't want her dead because I have hostility toward young female characters, either...I just hate it when interesting characters get killed off and a yawner like Beth goes on and on.

 

I still like Maggie, and I blame the writers, not the character, for the weird blandness she showed in the face of Beth's disappearance.

 

The reason I LOVE Morgan is because a) He was the one who saved Rick Grimes from wandering the streets in nothing but a hospital gown and a WTF expression, and B) his performance in the episode "Clear." THAT is acting!

This!

[Watcher0363]

Military and paramilitary organization have 3 concepts that keep them together and one known factor that always make them necessary.

1. Tear your recruits down then build them up.

2. Respect the chain of command, if not the person the position.

3. If the center fails to hold, all else fails.

 

What makes them necessary.

1. Most people will sell their souls and their neighbors for security.

2. Never under estimate how much comfort people have in their gilded cages

3. The keepers of the cage are always doing it for the good of everyone.

[pythonite]

I felt like this half season started with a bang and ended with a whimper. 

 

The entire Beth's missing-rescue Beth mission felt pointless since she died. She and Carol didn't even have one conversation. Why was Carol even there?

 

Not to mention the hospital micro-society was the silliest one yet! Not scary, just annoying. How is it these people have so much time and energy to indulge these weird fetishes? And not be consumed with the basic needs of food, clean water and not being eaten?

 

Times like these I really miss the cinematic quality Darabont brought to it. 

[Pete Martell]

I think the show has been stylishly directed more often than not this past season and last season, moreso than anything Darabont did after the pilot. My problem (as with Darabont, actually), is TPTB mistaking ponderous speeches and themes for plotting.

 

Gimple said something about there's so much going on so that's why you didn't see more of Carol and Beth. Really I think it was just an attempt to keep viewers interested each week, which I guess worked, judging by the ratings, but is something viewers will very quickly tire of if they feel it's just a stunt. 

[BetyBee]

I think we've all been victims of poor writing much of this season. Left to draw my own conclusions, I decided that Gabriel went looking to see if his own child perhaps had been killed at the school. Who is Mary, the owner of the Bible and the backpack? Did he know her? Although, if he did have a child at that school, even a chicken-sh*t like Gabriel would have checked on his child's fate long before this, I suppose.  It's really irritating to me that the hospital story and the Gabe story make so little sense. At least Abraham's story was fleshed out for us. Beth's death was senseless, imo. Really, what was she going to accomplish with that little scissors? And we are not even left with the info that ANY new characters followed our heroes out of the hospital. Not even the strawberry loving geezer? No one?  They all chose to stay in the evil they know? That makes Beth's death even more meaningless.

 

All that said, I did cry when Maggie looked expectantly for her sister to walk out of the hospital, only to have her heart broken.  I also heard on a podcast, a theory that ties the title Coda, a musical term, to Beth's story arc. That made sense to me. I just wish that any viewer could figure things like that out from watching the show, rather than from extraneous information.

[AndySmith]

 

Considering that fans constantly ask about the character and when he'll be seen again, I can't really blame the show for assuming people want to see more of Morgan.

 

It's not that...I am mystified as to why fans ask about him. I mean, he's ok, I don't have anything against the actor, I just don't get the adoration for him. I honeslty wouldn't be upset if he is never seen or heard from again. If anything, the cast, as it is, is already bloated enough, even with Beth now dead.

[Pestilentia]

 

Yes, having them encounter another version of CDB would be novel rather than the large assortment of monsters that they manage to stumble upon.

 

Remember when Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer ran into their own dopplegangers on the streets of NYC?

Like that.

[Mattipoo]

Most boring mid-season finale ever! The season premiere was so awesome and badass though. I guess it could only go downhill from there.

Good riddance Beth! We hardly knew ye.

Best part of the episode was Carol's miraculous recovery from being in a coma, to sitting on a wheelchair conscious, to being able to stand, walk around and show emotion, all within a few minutes.

Yay Morgan! Hope he catches up to the group soon and injects some excitement into the back half of this season. It desperately needs it.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Mattipoo

[ghoulina]

I felt like this half season started with a bang and ended with a whimper.

 

Times like these I really miss the cinematic quality Darabont brought to it.

 

Amen and Amen. 

 

I thought the opener was brilliant. And it wasn't just because there was a lot of action and tense moments. I realize you can't do that every week. But I thought the pacing of that episode was perfect. I would have never thought so much would be resolved in just that one episode, but they got it all done without feeling rushed at all. I felt the same way about season four's MSF. But man, after the first three episodes this year (and excluding "Consumed", IMO) the pacing, the writing, the acting....it's all just been very off. Very meh. I feel like it was all filler, to get us to Beth's big, heroic death. And half the crap they had our characters doing to either get us there, or fill the time, was so out of character it was pissing me off. 

 

I'm a pretty die-hard fan. I don't often criticize this show too much (other than little nitpicks). Last year you even saw me defending the Governor-centric eps and Still, but this season...I'm really not feeling it. And that's depressing me. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

Not to mention the hospital micro-society was the silliest one yet! Not scary, just annoying. How is it these people have so much time and energy to indulge these weird fetishes? And not be consumed with the basic needs of food, clean water and not being eaten?

 

And that's why I find myself surprised that Rick and his group wouldn't try to copy what this group has set up (minus the 'rape in exchange for protection' arrangement). I mean, if your biggest concern in the ZA is a minor tear in your clothing, I'd say you hit the ZA jackpot. They're clearly doing SOMETHING right to be able to play music, stand around chatting, save the occasional human, grow some plants, and not apparently have to worry about walkers worth a fucking damn.

 

The set-up at the hospital is so fucking sweet that if it were run by a decent group of people rather than rapey cops, it would be awesome.

 

That's why I wasn't really surprised that no one appeared to take Rick up on his offer. I mean, they've apparently been cleansed of their asshole rulers, they're warm, dry, clothed, fed and clean. Rick is offering them the opportunity to wander aimlessly among the walkers with no plan in mind, and he looks like he hasn't seen a drop of water in months.

 

If the rape arrangement were gone, hell yeah I could see myself staying at that hospital!

Edited December 2, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[The Mighty Peanut]

Did anyone else think that the vibe between RK and EK on TTD was super awkward and strained? I could be projecting, so I would appreciate the perspective of others.

Either way, I do think they should have had a co-star on with her and not the two guests they had.

I thought so, too. I felt being there opened a wound for EK and for a minute there it was difficult for her to be sitting next to the person that fired her without getting a case of the feels.

 

I'm a pretty die-hard fan. I don't often criticize this show too much (other than little nitpicks). Last year you even saw me defending the Governor-centric eps and Still, but this season...I'm really not feeling it. And that's depressing me.

I've enjoyed this season but I really disliked the MSF and actually feel guilty about it, like I'm mad at a good friend who should have known better even if they did mean well.

Edited December 2, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[GodsBeloved]

I guess I'm unsure of who Tyreese got killed. Who are the "so many people", Bob? No, FPP is the reason Bob was bitten. Gareth was the leader of the cannibals, and the one who relished telling Bob that they were eating his leg. Martin did partake in the meal, but that would have happened without Martin. Did Tyreese brag to Martin that Bob was particularly tasty? Gareth is the reason the group was attacked - they killed his mother. Knowing Judith's name did nothing but give the viewers a nice little chill. It did not endanger the baby. In fact, the baby would have been dead if not for him, and then Carol. The people truly responsible for the attack on the church, is everyone who fought going back and killing all the termites. Rick is the one who backed down on his plan - both times. Rick is my favorite, but he's not infallible.

I don't understand how Rick's plan was brilliant. How in the world do you know that all the bad guys would have died, and the good guys would have lived? Most likely, a lot of the wards and rape slaves would have been killed in the crossfire, and who knows how many of Rick's gang. In Tyreese's plan, only one person died - Beth. And she died because of - Beth.

I understand the criticism for his "weakness' and gentle nature, it's similar to why Beth is criticized. I just don't find him responsible for all that's gone wrong. It's like he's the new Lori and Andrea.

i agree. When I saw Tyreese being blamed for Bob's death I wondered how it was his fault Bob got bitten. Also wondered how after being back with her group that it was Tyreese's fault that Beth chose to walk back over to Dawn, stab her and get a bullet through her head.

I also wonder why I should believe that Rick's plan would have turned out better. Sure it could have but it could have turned out worse.

My impression of cop Bob has changed from last week. Yeah I think he's black now.

[Ottis]

WTF was up with the weird angles used to film the hospital scenes when the Grimes Gang showed up?

 

 

It felt like the Batman show from the 1960s. By the 3rd or 4th shot, I was kind of giggling.  All it needed was a fist fight with the "Bam!" and "Zzzzappp!" balloons.

 

So what did Beth "get" just before she stabbed Dawn? I didn't understand Beth's path. She clearly was working through something. I'm just not sure what. And she arrived at a conclusion. But I don't know how that tied to her stabbing Dawn.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ottis

[lulee]

I've been ruminating on this episode and I keep returning to that Beth and the scissors. Beth taking them for a desperate means of self-defense makes sense, but I just don't think it was in character for her to go on the offensive and stab Dawn. Beth was not that physically impulsive and while she'd changed, where was the groundwork for changing in that respect? I don't think her pondering action against the doctor convinces me that her fleshwounding of Dawn was in character.

 

What would have been in character, I think, was talk: Beth, child of Herschel, quite a talker himself, was a talker -- about feelings, about hope, about right and wrong, about people, etc.  But she never said to Dawn, "You're wrong. You're full of shit. You keep saying you rescued me. You didn't rescue me. You (or your henchcops) took me against my will away from my friend. And brought me back to this hospital for indentured servitude with terms you make up as your mood suits you. You're not just a terrible leader. You're a terrible person. If you had a soul before all this, you lost it." That should have been what Beth "got."

And then Dawn would have hit her again (totally in character) and then Beth and Dawn would have been caught in the crossfire.

And ...scene.

Edited December 2, 2014 by lulee

[nachomama]

The only thing I can assume that Beth "got" in that moment of epiphany is that Dawn was now Hansen and needed to be put down (I couldn't figure out if Dawn had to put Hansen down because he became "evil" and was head of the rapey squad or because he became weak and the rapey squad came about because they didn't respect him) but seriously the scissors make that knowledge useless. She needed to "get" it at the elevator shaft and push Dawn down, then if anyone killed Beth in retaliation then she really did do something. 

 

Or if "getting" it was about her comment "they always come back" which she said to Noah when she forced him to come back, she "got" that Dawn was abusive step mother who always claims you're free to go as you please but then pulls the strings because she's the puppet master. I'm virtually useless in any situation but I swear I could have gotten the scissors closer to her neck. 

[Boofish]

The only episode I watched once this season was Slabtown.

 

I'm also in the minority that the only camp destruction I can half-way blame on a Rick-a-cide is the farm.  CDB - it was only a matter of time before another group or walkers came for those idiots. Out there ironing and fishing like they are trying to earn a boy scout badge in stupidity. The destruction of Woodbury was all Merle because the no one knew Rick and his crew existed until Merle stepped up; remember the Governor had no intention of going near the prison because Merle told him it was over-run. The prisioners at the prison would have been fine if Cap'em Ponytail had decided to break bad. I don't blame them for destroying Terminus; somebody needed to ...  Father Pee Pants is the reason the church is no longer standing. There were perfectly content leaving the hospital until Cindadummy went all Project Runway on Dawn

[Pestilentia]

 

So what did Beth "get" just before she stabbed Dawn? I didn't understand Beth's path. She clearly was working through something. I'm just not sure what. And she arrived at a conclusion. But I don't know how that tied to her stabbing Dawn.

 

Or if "getting" it was about her comment "they always come back" which she said to Noah when she forced him to come back, she "got" that Dawn was abusive step mother who always claims you're free to go as you please but then pulls the strings because she's the puppet master. I'm virtually useless in any situation but I swear I could have gotten the scissors closer to her neck.

 

I think that is closer to it than anything- all along Dawn has been giving her spiel, the hows and whys of how she runs the hospital. Reasons. Justifications. Wanking her behavior and that of everyone else.

But when she said "I knew you'd be back" to Noah she was just jabbing him with her tiny needles of control, hitting him in his weak spot for no good reason other than to stir shit. I think when Beth heard that she realized that Dawn was just a petty tyrant who enjoyed hurting people for her own amusement. What Beth might have tolerated said about herself she in no way tolerated being said about or to Noah and she had the unfortunate idea to take Dawn out while she had the chance.

 

Or not.

Who the hell knows.

I'm in the camp that says when you need people explaining to you what happened the story was poorly told.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pestilentia

[Boofish]

I think we've all been victims of poor writing much of this season. Left to draw my own conclusions, I decided that Gabriel went looking to see if his own child perhaps had been killed at the school. Who is Mary, the owner of the Bible and the backpack? Did he know her? Although, if he did have a child at that school, even a chicken-sh*t like Gabriel would have checked on his child's fate long before this, I suppose.  It's really irritating to me that the hospital story and the Gabe story make so little sense. At least Abraham's story was fleshed out for us. Beth's death was senseless, imo. Really, what was she going to accomplish with that little scissors? And we are not even left with the info that ANY new characters followed our heroes out of the hospital. Not even the strawberry loving geezer? No one?  They all chose to stay in the evil they know? That makes Beth's death even more meaningless.

 

All that said, I did cry when Maggie looked expectantly for her sister to walk out of the hospital, only to have her heart broken.  I also heard on a podcast, a theory that ties the title Coda, a musical term, to Beth's story arc. That made sense to me. I just wish that any viewer could figure things like that out from watching the show, rather than from extraneous information.

The Bible belonged to Gareth's mother Mary. Bob told the group he was taken to the school that's why Father Pee Pants stumbled upon the location.

 

Noah left with our group and I think since Beth is the reason he was able to escape, tell the others where to find her and to her trying to kill Dawn was her last attempt at saving Noah again I can't be that mad at her. I do agree we are left to draw our own conclusions so those are mine

[nodorothyparker]

I've pretty much given up trying to decipher it too.  This show has needed a magic decoder ring in the form of TTD all season to make sense of any number of things, so I'm just adding Beth "getting it" to the pile.

 

That entire ending makes me think of the old saying about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing.  Substitute "people suddenly telling you you're strong and getting lucky enough a time or two to believe it" for knowledge.  It made her cocky enough to bring scissors to a gun fight and got her killed.

[editorgrrl]

I've pretty much given up trying to decipher it too. This show has needed a magic decoder ring in the form of TTD all season to make sense of any number of things, so I'm just adding Beth "getting it" to the pile.

That entire ending makes me think of the old saying about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. Substitute "people suddenly telling you you're strong and getting lucky enough a time or two to believe it" for knowledge. It made her cocky enough to bring scissors to a gun fight and got her killed.

Isn't that what Emily Kinney said on Talking Dead? That Beth was overconfident?

[nodorothyparker]

I honestly don't remember.  I lost interest somewhere between her turning into a blubbering mess and acting like she's the first person in history to lose a job on less than her terms or timetable.

[SoSueMe]

Regarding Morgan/Lenny James. He did a terrific job in those two episodes he was in, but the writing was very rich so imo that had a lot to do with his loyal following. It is hard for me to guess what they will do with his character. It almost seems like the creators are pandering to the fans.

 

Another minor character, Jim, (remember him?) did just as good of a job in his episode. It all has so much to do with the writing.

[kikismom]

The only episode I watched once this season was Slabtown.

 

I'm also in the minority that the only camp destruction I can half-way blame on a Rick-a-cide is the farm.  CDB - it was only a matter of time before another group or walkers came for those idiots. Out there ironing and fishing like they are trying to earn a boy scout badge in stupidity. The destruction of Woodbury was all Merle because the no one knew Rick and his crew existed until Merle stepped up; remember the Governor had no intention of going near the prison because Merle told him it was over-run. The prisioners at the prison would have been fine if Cap'em Ponytail had decided to break bad. I don't blame them for destroying Terminus; somebody needed to ...  Father Pee Pants is the reason the church is no longer standing. There were perfectly content leaving the hospital until Cindadummy went all Project Runway on Dawn

As with the Pete Martell question, I have to say it's not Rick who destroyed these, it's the timing. I suppose we could say it's only a matter of time before walkers hit every place--however the people had been at the quarry for weeks just fine and Rick comes in? Countdown to destruction. Same for the farm. Same for the prison, the Vatos, Father Gabe at the church for almost 2 years, etc.

It isn't Rick willfully tearing the places stone from stone or timber from timber...it's just funny how these are places that the good people, bad people, and pin-headed idiots all were maintaining fairly well---meet the Rickster and it's starts circling the drain from that moment.

I think of Rick like a "cooler"---if you saw the William H. Macy movie, a cooler is a guy the casino puts at the table to put "the hex" on winners because he's just walking bad juju. He sits down with you and your hot streak goes ice cold.  No one knows why, he isn't a bad person...some people are just the Charlie Brown force in this world.

Edited December 2, 2014 by kikismom

[diebartdie]

I've been ruminating on this episode and I keep returning to that Beth and the scissors. Beth taking them for a desperate means of self-defense makes sense, but I just don't think it was in character for her to go on the offensive and stab Dawn. Beth was not that physically impulsive and while she'd changed, where was the groundwork for changing in that respect? I don't think her pondering action against the doctor convinces me that her fleshwounding of Dawn was in character.

 

What would have been in character, I think, was talk: Beth, child of Herschel, quite a talker himself, was a talker -- about feelings, about hope, about right and wrong, about people, etc.  But she never said to Dawn, "You're wrong. You're full of shit. You keep saying you rescued me. You didn't rescue me. You (or your henchcops) took me against my will away from my friend. And brought me back to this hospital for indentured servitude with terms you make up as your mood suits you. You're not just a terrible leader. You're a terrible person. If you had a soul before all this, you lost it." That should have been what Beth "got."

And then Dawn would have hit her again (totally in character) and then Beth and Dawn would have been caught in the crossfire.

And ...scene.

Well goddamn that would have made sense and actually been powerful. I know a lot of people have negative feelings about the Beth character but goddamnit I LIKED the character and even if she had to die for some plot reason, it should have made sense. I mean I could have understood it if Beth had slashed Dawn's face and Dawn spazzed and shot Beth, but Beth was smart enough to know that tiny pair of scissors would not do much except slash OR open the neck artery if jammed and ripped. Instead we got that final scene which was confusing and did not make sense. I've read EK's take on it and it just sounds like the actor is trying to put a brave face on what was very obviously a shitty stunt pulled, yet again by Robert Kirkman. The icing on the shit cake though was poor EK having to sit beside RK during ttd. That was excruciating, I really really fell bad for EK and hope the rest of her life is filled with as much good stuff as possible. I hated the ending of that episode and hated every bit of that idiotic, stupid, implausible hospital storyline.

[AngelaHunter]

I almost expected Maggie to say "Beth? Beth who?" when Michone informed her Beth was alive.

 

I was thinking exactly the same thing at that moment!

 

As for Morgan, I'm stumped by all the outcry for him and the excitement every time he's shown in a preview. I forget all about him between sightings and couldn't care less if I ever see him again, although I notice he's picked up some cool  shades in his travels. He must have a lot of food and water in that pack of his since he certainly doesn't appear to be starving or distressed in any way.

 

The entire Beth's missing-rescue Beth mission felt pointless since she died. She and Carol didn't even have one conversation. Why was Carol even there?

 

Why was Carol there...the only thing I can think is that she needed to be taken there > to make Daryl want to pursue her > which led to Noah telling him about Beth? I can't think of any other reason. But it was all pointless as you say, having Beth killed because she gave Dawn a little flesh wound. Also pointless because after waiting all this time for Beth's rescue, she had absolutely no reaction to seeing her "family" there. Of course she could have been rendered speechless upon seeing how freaking terrifying Rick now looks.

 

I had no problem with Dawn on the cardio machine. I actually thought it was a nice little touch to show how insulated she was from the reality of the world outside. It was, IMO, the only mildly interesting thing we ever saw her do.

 

 

 

[kikismom]

Regarding Morgan/Lenny James. He did a terrific job in those two episodes he was in, but the writing was very rich so imo that had a lot to do with his loyal following. It is hard for me to guess what they will do with his character. It almost seems like the creators are pandering to the fans.

I will tell you but only if you really want to know, but they are definitely not pandering. I'm surprised by so much resistance to the character and the actor, it's a bit like Michonne.  ANYHOW

Morgan is a character from the original TWD canon. He is intergral to the continuing plot, but I will not say more.. He was however definitely not invented by popular demand out of nowhere. He'll be--at least if TPTB are truthful in sticking closer to the comic--as important as Rick, Michonne, Carl etc. I hope this helps.

The above spoiler does not really specify any actions coming however it does refer to The Published Work Who's Name We Must Not Speak (without a spoiler tag anyway.)

That means open spoiler at some risk, but it's really not that juicy a secret...just a matter of who wants to or doesn't want to know about TPWWNWMNS. 

:-D

Edited December 2, 2014 by kikismom

[Ocean Chick]

I honestly don't remember.  I lost interest somewhere between her turning into a blubbering mess and acting like she's the first person in history to lose a job on less than her terms or timetable.

 

Thank you!  I don't remember Sarah WC or Iron-E or anyone else blubbering on about being written off this show.  It's a zombie show.  People are going to die.  Yes, is sucks losing most any job, but that's kinda part of being an actor.  A big part.  And it's not like she's forbidden to make contact with any of her friends still working.  We've seen former cast mates visit the set quite often.  And she can Skype or text any time she wants.  It's now December - she filmed her last scene back in the middle of July - surely that's been long enough to keep the water works at bay.  Even if she does have to sit next to RK.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ocean Chick

[AngelaHunter]

I don't watch TD, but when I saw this picture I kind of felt I don't need to watch the show. It seems to tell all:

 

[RustbeltWriter]

AFter watching this mid-season fianle I'm feeling justified in my opinion that Kirkman shouldn't be running the storylines. Here are some examples:

 

• Father Gabriel's trip to the school seemed to serve no purpose. What were we supposed to learn about him from this expedition?
• What was Beth's plan? How was stabbing Dawn going to free Noah? All she did was put everyone in danger of having a firefight in that hallway.
• Killing Beth was just a lazy way to have a dramatic mide-season finale. As I've said previously, Beth had the potential to change and grow and that's what characterization is all about.
• On the Talking Dead, Kirkman said something to the effect that killing characters kept the story moving forward. That's just awful story telling and it's the kind of thing a creator says when they are out of ideas. The characters on this show move from hazardous situation to deadly situation without any plan or purpose. There is no long term plan to build anything. They actually turned down the invitation to stay at Grady where it was relatively safe and where medical assistance was available to roam around in the woods on foot. I doubt any father with two children, one of them an infant, would do that.
• We're five seasons in. If Kirkman wants  to show us how dangerous life is in the ZA, he has succeeded. Now show us how these characters will grow and overcome these obstacles.

[editorgrrl]

After watching this mid-season fianle I'm feeling justified in my opinion that Kirkman shouldn't be running the storylines. Here are some examples:

 

• Father Gabriel's trip to the school seemed to serve no purpose. What were we supposed to learn about him from this expedition?
• What was Beth's plan? How was stabbing Dawn going to free Noah? All she did was put everyone in danger of having a firefight in that hallway.

 

Gabriel needed to be shown rather than told that Rick's crew are the good guys.

 

Several people did stupid things during the last two episodes. Sasha got bonked on the head; Gabriel was shown more mercy than he gave; Beth died. Life is not fair.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm conflicted about Tyreese, because while I do agree that he's a big liability/time bomb for CDB, I also like the character on a personal level and think Chad Coleman is turning in good, entertaining performances. I don't want him off my screen as I did with Lori and Andrea, I just get nervous over whether or not he's going to cause a disaster.

 

That kind of stands in contrast to my reaction to Eugene. That character is like nails on a chalkboard to me, though having seen Josh McDermitt out of character I do have to admit that he's also turning in a very good performance (and is aware of his character's faults, unlike some actors who frankly seem to over-identify).

[Boilergal]

I thought with all the bonding talk between Beth and Dawn we were being taken down a Stockholm Syndrome route.  I was sure that when Team Rick showed up to rescue Beth she would refuse to go because of her newfound respect for Dawn.  I was relieved when Beth went over, and loved the little hug Rick gave her. 

 

We were not spoiled -  Mrs Boiler and I were shocked when Beth was shot, and cheered when Daryl shot Dawn. 

 

Gabriel is an idiot and needs to go - he was perfectly safe and decided he needed to go check things out?!?!?  AND THEN leads the zombies back to Church, basically forcing Marchonne and Carl to tear down their security to save his idiot rear end.  I would have been at the door going  WHO?!?  I don't know anyone by that name?  Sorry, No Solicitors!  We already have a vacuum cleaner, have a good day.

 

As for Maggie  - I would think a couple years into the ZA, your grief cycle would be pretty condensed - no matter the relation.  You realistically know if someone disappears alone,  you really shouldn't go looking for them because chances are pretty good they are zombie chew toys.  Not to mention you are pretty focused on not becoming zombie chow yourself.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by Boilergal

[paramitch]

My problem with this episode was that some of the actions of the characters simply made no sense, and were required only to get people from Point A to Point B.

 

Like, the entire scene of Father Gabriel leaving the church made absolutely no sense to me and was simply a badly written and transparent way to push FPP's character forward a beat while totally annihilating the church as a haven for them, and in the stupidest way possible:

 

1. First off, he's loudly ripping up floorboards and nobody decides to check on him just to see what the resident crazy guy is up to
2. Then he crawls out just so that he can go reconfirm for himself that the Termites were cannibals (which again, as other commented, Bob's clearly told story and absence of leg pretty much confirmed that)
3. Then he views Bob's gruesome and unbelievably intact leg (I mean, seriously? wouldn't zombies and/or animals have reduced it to nothing at this point?)
4. Then, when Gabriel is at last set upon predictably by walkers, he simply goes limping slowly back to the church (and I'm sorry, but the scene of Gabriel limping slowly with the zombies limping even more slowly behind him had me laughing out loud)
5. Making no attempt to lead the horde off somewhere else, he leads them right up the front steps and into the church, instantly filling the church with walkers in a way I just found silly and unbelievable (as silly as Daryl's previous "opening the door to zombies" scene that ended in separating him and Beth).

 

I just can't.

 

Then, to top it all off, after escaping, he, Michonne, and Carl just stand there watching the walkers slowly break through the door, only to suddenly look panicked when they do. "Where do we go?" asks Michonne, and again, I'm like, "Maybe you should have gotten out of eyesight of the walkers while they were still inside?" 

 

But no, the entire thing was a really clumsy setpiece to nuke the church as a set, and so that the fire engine could come racing up to save them.

 

Anyway. I love the show, and at times I think it's really strong, but I thought this episode was really badly written, and that the whole hospital arc has made no sense from one episode to the next. (Are the people slaves or not slaves? Are all the cops baddies/rapists or just a few? Etc.) I also didn't buy that Rick would run over a valuable hostage and then shoot him. He could have easily disabled Cop Bob and simply returned him back with the others, no fuss. It just felt like an overdone "badass Rick" moment to me that felt unearned and that (as others pointed out) eventually led directly to loss of life at the standoff. Meanwhile, Tyreese's scene was just painful (all of his monologues are variations on a single theme).

 

I did think Emily Kinney did a great job in this episode -- she's very effective when she simply lets her eyes and her face speak for her. I've never thought she was a bad actress, and will miss her on the show. I'd actually enjoyed Beth's evolution and was interested to see how she would have changed when returned to the group, so I'm sorry to see her go. (But I guess Tara will have to carry the flag now of the "Naive Young Female" character now.)

 

Although don't get me started on whether Dawn would actually, really face an armed group after a successful trade and only then demand for the return of a guy who had no interest in staying there. Or that Beth would really take action with those teeny little scissors to commit suicide by cop. I just don't believe it. I also don't believe Rick & Co. would have simply given him up like that either. All they had to do was walk away.

 

I think this episode is a good example of why the writers need to stop pandering or going for watercooler moments and simply concentrate on writing a good story that makes sense logistically. (I love "Talking Dead" and stuff, but sometimes I think the elevation of this show in a pop culture sense leads to the writers and showrunners trading real moments for twitter trends and talking points, and that it did so here.)

[Ronin Jackson]

I wouldn't call myself a big fan of this show even though I keep watching. The bad to mediocre episodes, IMO, outnumber really good ones by a wide margin. But I do like Morgan and like seeing him appear. The pilot and his return episode have been two of the best of the show. His cameo in the season 5 premier capped another really good episode. The writing is probably not good enough to sustain the quality if he returned as a regular though. Still, I'd look forward to it.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I think I'm being a little dense here so I apologize in advance, but what was the point of Dawn demanding that Noah return to the hospital? Was it part of her overall plan to win respect through not conceding fully to the others' terms, was she just being a dick, or had she gone crazy (example of crazy: smirking while telling Noah she knew he'd come back like he wasn't being forced to)?

 

I suppose it's all of the above, but still. I didn't get it like Beth apparently did.

Edited December 2, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[NoWillToResist]

The only thing I can assume that Beth "got" in that moment of epiphany is that Dawn was now Hansen and needed to be put down (I couldn't figure out if Dawn had to put Hansen down because he became "evil" and was head of the rapey squad or because he became weak and the rapey squad came about because they didn't respect him) but seriously the scissors make that knowledge useless. She needed to "get" it at the elevator shaft and push Dawn down, then if anyone killed Beth in retaliation then she really did do something. 

 

Or if "getting" it was about her comment "they always come back" which she said to Noah when she forced him to come back, she "got" that Dawn was abusive step mother who always claims you're free to go as you please but then pulls the strings because she's the puppet master. I'm virtually useless in any situation but I swear I could have gotten the scissors closer to her neck. 

 

I think she figured Dawn could be reasoned with. Dawn agreed to the trade, and all was well. Then Dawn pulls that bullshit with Noah and Beth realizes that Dawn is not even remotely a good person, capable of redemption.

 

 I also didn't buy that Rick would run over a valuable hostage and then shoot him. He could have easily disabled Cop Bob and simply returned him back with the others, no fuss. It just felt like an overdone "badass Rick" moment to me that felt unearned and that (as others pointed out) eventually led directly to loss of life at the standoff.

 

I don't think Lamson was a valuable hostage. He was a snake a could not be trusted. He'd lied to them and hurt Sasha. He presumably aimed to get to Dawn to warn her. Had Rick simply grabbed him and kept him, I think there was a strong likelihood that Lamsen would have sabotaged the trade. Him missing from the prisoner trade didn't jeopardize anything. Dawn did by trying to change the terms of the agreement after the trade was done and Beth is responsible for her own death because she attacked Dawn.

[Portia]

What I don't understand was Morgan laughing after he laid those things on the alter.  Was it because he was free from those things?  He didn't laugh maniacally or like he was insane, he seemed to laugh joyfully.  I thought it was because he found the map with Rick's name, but he found that after he was laughing.

Here's the order of Morgan's actions:

• He lays the items on the altar.
• He prays. There's a brief cut before the prayer shot, so we don't know how long he was actually praying.
• He looks up toward the ceiling (or God?).
• He look back over his shoulder at the dead walkers and/or the open entrance of the church.
• He smiles and laughs.
• He stands at the altar, continuing to smile and look upward.
• He steps away from the altar and finds the map.

 

My best guess is that the laughter is related somehow to the prayer. He's asking God for something, and the laughter is related to the perceived answer or lack thereof. Since he laughs just after looking back at the piles of walkers, I almost feel like he's saying, "Nope! They're still there. Prayer denied." But I don't really think that's what is intended. It would be clearer if the smile and laugh had come after the discovery of the map . . . but I don't know, I still feel the vibe that the laughter was related to the prayer. I agree with ReadheadZombie that Morgan doesn't seem insane; if anything, he seems relaxed and even peaceful. I for one am absolutely loving the peeks at Morgan, and I really get the sense that he's being guided supernaturally toward the Scooby gang. That may all be in my head, though.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Portia