S05.E08: Coda

[acee01b]

I liked Beth, so I was sad to see her go. She did represent a different kind of survivor, and it is too bad. Not everyone can be Michonne, Sasha or Carol.

 

My guess is that the new "mission" is to take Noah home to Virginia.  Beth wanted Noah to get home, and I think that will be the reason to go to the DC area. Morgan is headed there too.

[Ouisch]

As far as Our Group's filth level goes, it seems to me that only the men are shown consistently grungy each week. Mr. Ouisch has long tired of me griping every week "Maggie's/Beth's/Rosita's/Tara's clothes could stand up on their own, but their hair is always freshly washed and fluffy." The men's hair is always shown pretty much as oily and matted as the rest of their flesh (not counting the teeth, that's another story), but the women always have Hollywood-style messy hair. I go two days without a shampoo and my roots clump together at the scalp and my tresses get stringy. Beth has been on the run with Daryl for days, yet while she munches smoked snake with him her blonde tresses are fluffy clean from the scalp to the ends. Oh sure, the set dressers have pulled it back into a messy ponytail with one haphazard braid thrown in for good measure, but that is clearly a head full of freshly scrubbed hair. But Shell Oil could have pumped 20 barrels from Daryl's head in that same scene.

 

The whole hospital arc with the constant protestations of "X is/was a good cop" rang hollow because all of the cops at Grady apparently accepted Chief Dawn's pecking order. Even if they weren't of the rapey variety, they stood by and let one of their own physically abuse an elderly ward because he hadn't properly patched a uniform sleeve. Was this a writing problem or an acting problem? Because, as mentioned upthread, even with the same limited screen time we were still able to twig onto the backstory of the Termites and quickly deduce their raison d'etre. We knew they were bad, we knew why, and we knew what must be done. With the Grady Group we knew nothing but confusion and conflicting stories.

[HalcyonDays]

One thing about Beth's weapon... it is possible to stab through kevlar, with a good knife.

 

<snip>

I think Beth stabbed Dawn in the shoulder, next to the strap for the Kevlar vest, so the scissors could easily go through. I don't think you can stab through Kevlar though - if bullets flying at top speed don't go, Beth's little stab won't either. I would guess.

 

 

I seem to be in the minority on this one, but I agree with the decision to kill him and be done with it. I don't think offering the bad guys a crippled henchman would be worth much as a bargaining tool. In fact, if they don't want the responsibility of taking care of him they might be even more likely to treat Rick as a dangerous loose cannon who can't be trusted. If he got killed by zombies, well that's actually a thing. I've never actually heard of a dog eating somebody's homework, but zombies eat henchmen like every two episodes in the ZA.

 

You may be the minority, but I'm with you. This guy knocked out Sasha but he easily could have killed her. Luckily he didn't. I get that they are maybe scared and want to escape, but as we've seen in the Walking Dead, the humans are worse than the zombies. Who is to say that CopBob wouldn't have tried to get the drop on Rick if he could. But then, If it were me, I wouldn't trust anyone.

 

I loved Rick's face when the blonde cop was talking, and trying to save herself and he had this amazing smirk on his face, because he has been here before, heard these type of words before and knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are all lies. Love that.

[Ellaria]

I think one of the problems with TWD is they mistake nuance for people giving lengthy speeches and staring ponderously. It doesn't have to be that way, and sometimes it isn't - I thought a lot of Carl's material last season was very nuanced, while being full of action and drama - but too often it's either shootouts and car crashes, or Dawn having extensive rehash conversations with Beth about reality and hope and order. Or Tyreese yammering to Sasha.

 

Agree. Don't forget about the Rick/Herschel conversations on the meaning of life.

 

They have struggled over the years to find a sustainable balance between character development and action. Episodes like "Clear" and "The Grove" focused more on character building yet still were able to amp up feelings of tension and fear. "No Sanctuary" was as an action-filled as an episode can be but provided some excellent character moments. They can do it. It just doesn't happen as often as it could/should.

 

There are too many characters and, IMO, that's one of the issues. Its difficult to put some of them on the bench for a few episodes while others receive expanded story lines. The two-episode arc devoted to the "good-bye tour" for the Gov highlights that problem. I don't know what the solution is.

[CletusMusashi]

When Rick invited anybody who wanted out to follow him, I was watching for a guinea pig.

ETA: Knives (as in like daggers or Marine kabars) can go through Kevlar if stabbed hard enough because of concentration of impact, Bullets are blunt, so it bends under them but doesn't rip. Arrows will also work against it much better than bullets, for the same reason.

I doubt Beth was smart enough to think abut targeting a weak spot in the armor but not to just, say, go for the neck. But I can easily see her falling for the old "little bit of knowledge" trap. Hey, I've certainly never run around trying to stab anybody in Kevlar. So let's say everything I "know" about this is wrong. Beth could still have heard the same factoids that I have.

Edited December 1, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Misty79]

I'm sad to see Beth go. I mostly enjoy this show but I feel like I must be way outside of the core demo as it keeps killing off the characters I like and relate to (Lori, Andrea and now Beth). I know most people hated Beth's episode with Daryl last season, but I thought her character offered something different to the show and the memory of those two connecting stuck with me afterwards. Good fiction is about contrasts and they had it in spades. She was the only innocent thing left on this show, the only thing that hadn't been mowed down by the "butcher or be the butchered" mantra this show has been going with lately. 

 

There's a quote by this year's Man Booker prize winner Richard Flanagan that I appreciate and summarizes my feelings about this really well -  "I think if people are presented with a picture of only darkness they revolt against it because they know, fundamentally, that it’s untrue to their experience of life, which is to hope."

 

I've stopped watching Game of Thrones as of last season because it is failing to deliver that light and shade. I hope the TWD doesn't go there too. There is a tendency for shows like this to veer towards torture porn, where young women (and black people!) are treated very badly. I think teenage males get off on it. But just to let you know TWD, you have female fans too, so next time how about you kill off someone darker and tougher like Carl, Daryl, Michonne, or Carol to even up the ledger. The last time we had that would have been Shane, I think? I don't count non-sympathetic baddies like the Governor. 

[Helena Dax]

 

About the Rick-rolling of Roadrunner Bob... I seem to be in the minority on this one, but I agree with the decision to kill him and be done with it. I don't think offering the bad guys a crippled henchman would be worth much as a bargaining tool. In fact, if they don't want the responsibility of taking care of him they might be even more likely to treat Rick as a dangerous loose cannon who can't be trusted. If he got killed by zombies, well that's actually a thing. I've never actually heard of a dog eating somebody's homework, but zombies eat henchmen like every two episodes in the ZA.

 

I didn't have a problem with that either, and I'm someone who bitched at Rick when he didn't pick up the hitchhiker. Rick and the others weren't going to do anything wrong:  they were going to exchange the three cops for Beth and Carol. Fair and simple. What Bob did proved he was okay with slaving people and he was going to cause trouble. He could have ruined  the exchange. He had hurt Sasha.  There was no reason to let him live.

 

I liked Beth as much as I like my non-favourite characters and I'm sorry she died. Maggie's scream was  heartbreaking; Daryl's tears, not so much. He's one of my favourite characters, but with him, every time  he cries I have the feeling the writers want me to be  sorry, I feel manipulated.  Maybe I think his soft side should be subtler.

 

When Michonne started to fight zombies with Judith at her back, she reminded me of Xena:  she had a couple of awesome fights while carrying her baby girl too. I need a crossover or something. 

 

The priest is quite useless but I don't hate him. I think it'll be interesting to see his development.  And I don't hate Tyresse either. He's dumb and he made a huge, but he's got his moments too. Tbh, the only "good" characters I got to hate were Lori and Andrea. And I didn't hate the latter until she "bertrayed" Michonne at Woodbury. I used to hate Carl too, but now I'm okay with him. 

 

Someone said upthread that when Dawn asked to get Noah back, someone should have reminded her  that slavery had ended 150 years ago.  I totally agree. That wouldn't have worked with someone like  Gareth or the Governor, but Dawn? She needed so much to think of herself as a good person that turning that situation into a racial problem would have made her feel guilty enough to let Noah  go. 

Edited December 1, 2014 by Helena Dax

[CletusMusashi]

I'd say the last dark main character they killed was Merle.

In any case, I agree with a lot of Misty's post. Count me as someone who also liked Andrea, and was honestly starting to like Beth. I also liked Dale, another much-hated "weak" character. Lori... not so much, but my hat's off to anyone brave enough to admit here that they did.

Weaker does not have to equal less interesting. However, I'm not sure what the hell they're doing with the balance now. Maybe the show is getting a little top-heavy with badasses, and so they need to "fix" that?

Beth is dead, Carol can limp around and be injured for as long as they want to give someone else the action spotlight. Maggie can spend the next four episodes crying about her sister who she never gave up on, if Tyreese gets any lamer he'll be sitting in a wheelchair on cinder blocks, and the new breakout star who gets scene after scene after scene is Father fucking Gabriel?

Please. I'd rather still be watching Eugene.

There is an entire range of emotion and human behavior between "tearing out throats with your teeth" and "being an annoying crybaby with way too much screen time." Seems like the only time the writers remember this is when they're doing a filler episode, though.

[Tippi Blevins]

I didn't realize the pack on Michonne's back was supposed to be Judith, at first. I thought they were going to barricade themselves against the walkers and then realize "Oh shit, we forgot the baby!"

[Grace284]

It's fitting that the soulless hospital arc finished in such a bland manner. Pointless, but I give them credit for making Beth's death at least slightly moving, thanks mostly to the actors who can actually act (thank you, Andrew Lincoln). I missed most of Dawn's latest meandering speech because there was a section of wall in the background that was exhibiting more life.

 

I did laugh when Rick ran over Cop Bob. Yet another person who refuses to listen to his plans. Must have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

[LilySilver]

The only thing I was saying about Kirkman is that he strikes me as someone who likes his action to be more of the "rip-out-the-other's-throat."  I think it's that type of suspense he relishes and thrives in.  (And a lot of the audience likes that, too.  To me, it's the "gamer" mentality.)  As opposed to a more subtly told tale like you used to see in the old Twilight Zones.  I'm not saying every show has to be nuanced, but I like a little nuance every now and then instead of full-speed-ahead, let's-ram-'em mentality.  Maybe he was going for nuance with Herschel's farm and the audience wouldn't stand for it.

It's that question of balance--it wasn't the pace or lack of action at the farm that got to me (there was actually a lot of action; I binge-watched that season so I never felt as claustrophobic about it as some did), but the fact that it veered toward soap-opera, that the the speechifying was out of balance with actual, more natural, character development. But as I've said before, one of the top five most moving scenes to me was at the farm, with Rick yelling, "Brother, don't do this!" to Shane.  I did think that the Shane/Rick relationship managed some nuance which was given in small expressions, a twitch of Shane's eye, Rick's anger at Lori, Shane's confusion and rage at being the one to sacrifice his humanity to save Carl....Gee, now that I think of that part of the season, I guess I did like the season at the farm.  But not the speechifying. God, not that.  And that was what more than half of this midseason episode seemed to consist of to me--mostly Dawn speechifying, then the other rapey cop speechifying, and even Tyreese speechifying.  I think even new Bob speechified as he lay dying iirc.  But I get that it's difficult to write nuanced behavior and conversations and be sure you're communicating what you want to as  writer.

 

Agree. Don't forget about the Rick/Herschel conversations on the meaning of life.

 

They have struggled over the years to find a sustainable balance between character development and action. Episodes like "Clear" and "The Grove" focused more on character building yet still were able to amp up feelings of tension and fear. "No Sanctuary" was as an action-filled as an episode can be but provided some excellent character moments. They can do it. It just doesn't happen as often as it could/should.

 

There are too many characters and, IMO, that's one of the issues. Its difficult to put some of them on the bench for a few episodes while others receive expanded story lines. The two-episode arc devoted to the "good-bye tour" for the Gov highlights that problem. I don't know what the solution is.

Me neither, but continuing to take precious episodes to worldbuild with characters I don't care about isn't going to work for me.  I guess my question about the series of Big Bads is simply why don't we also meet groups more like CDB along the way?  It seems like some of them would be getting it (closer to) right. Maybe we're just unlucky in who we run into....  I know it would muck things up narratively, but couldn't we bump into a nice group of folks who would let CDB stay in their isolation cell for the night and then usher them safely along their way? Or something?  Or evidence that such people had existed?  In fact that was a complaint I had when the whole Woodbury thing went down--I would have thought that someone would have at least tried to put things back together. I guess Morales did, but then along came "Brian."  Anyway, I understand the complications in trying to set up a functioning society now.  Do we have to keep reviewing it?  I hope not but I don't see an alternative.

 

I'm sad to see Beth go. I mostly enjoy this show but I feel like I must be way outside of the core demo as it keeps killing off the characters I like and relate to (Lori, Andrea and now Beth). I know most people hated Beth's episode with Daryl last season, but I thought her character offered something different to the show and the memory of those two connecting stuck with me afterwards. Good fiction is about contrasts and they had it in spades. She was the only innocent thing left on this show, the only thing that hadn't been mowed down by the "butcher or be the butchered" mantra this show has been going with lately. 

 

There's a quote by this year's Man Booker prize winner Richard Flanagan that I appreciate and summarizes my feelings about this really well -  "I think if people are presented with a picture of only darkness they revolt against it because they know, fundamentally, that it’s untrue to their experience of life, which is to hope."

 

I've stopped watching Game of Thrones as of last season because it is failing to deliver that light and shade. I hope the TWD doesn't go there too. There is a tendency for shows like this to veer towards torture porn, where young women (and black people!) are treated very badly. I think teenage males get off on it. But just to let you know TWD, you have female fans too, so next time how about you kill off someone darker and tougher like Carl, Daryl, Michonne, or Carol to even up the ledger. The last time we had that would have been Shane, I think? I don't count non-sympathetic baddies like the Governor. 

I liked Beth just fine too.  I liked what she represented to the group, and to Daryl in particular.  I liked that in that particular case, she did save him.  I think she had value.  But I wasn't particularly attached to her, and I have never really cared much for Maggie either, so it was only in the loss I felt for the other characters that her death particularly got to me. Oh, and having to watch Emily cry on TD was also excruciating.  Sitting next to Kirkman of all people (why didn't they set her in the middle so that somebody could put an arm around her without Chris having to awkwardly cross the set to do it?!)  She does seem younger than she is.

 

I really share your feeling about things getting too dark.  I had to work myself up to start watching again when the season started.  Part of the reason I love Rick is that he is relatable--I like to think that he is acting and feeling much as I would do in his place, in general--certainly there are certain decisions where we diverge. (And I like to think I'd pay a little more attention to hygiene.)  If he gets too dark or brutal, he will lose a lot of his appeal for me.  I love Michonne but don't think she would carry the show for me (she doesn't seem conflicted at all; very peaceful with who she is and what must be done vs. what cannot be done), Carl grates on my nerves, Daryl...well he might could be interesting enough to keep me watching if he were a bit fleshed out, Tyreese needs to get off my screen now, I like Sasha as a stalwart soldier,  FPP could keep my attention for an episode or two with his shirt possibly off (can I say that? So sexist.), Glenn and Maggie are boring, Tara is silly, I love Rosita, and Abraham is stupid. I still miss Merle.  So I'm kind of relying on Rick here to retain his humanity, which is what makes the show watchable for me.  If he isn't a little broken by losing Beth like that, he won't be the Rick I think I know. He will be too dark.

 

I think the farm and the prison, though, did serve a sort of a touchstone for the whole "family".  They had, for a moment, peace and  relative safety. They had a home, they know it's possible, and I think they will want to find it again at some point.  It's been shown to be nearly impossible to maintain, but maybe they could have a little bit better emergency meetup plan the next time, and just prepare for the next big Baddie to show up.

Edited December 1, 2014 by LilySilver

[Raven1707]

 

Otherwise it was good, a bit shocking and like I said, sad, cause I cried. I have a feeling I might be the only one.

 

You're definitely not the only one. I watched "Coda" five times, and I cried five times.

[ACW]

  So, it seems like most of you are confident that Dawn's "I knew you'd be back" was directed at Noah? 

   I'm relieved to hear that, because it really seemed to me that it was directed at Beth.  Which meant that the only way I could make sense of Beth's actions was interpreting her "I get it now" response as meaning:  "Okay, so you actually saved me those times because you're an Evil Dyke who has the hots for me, and you're as rapey as the men, so now I must kill you."  Which seemed really jarring.

[CletusMusashi]

I took it to be directed at Beth.

And, yes, I have wondered if there was any (one-sided) sexual subtext between her and Beth.

But even if there was, Beth didn't (try to) kill her for being attracted to her. She killed her for being a murderer, a kidnapper, a slaver, a torturer, a rape apologist, an annoying lying manipulative hypocrite, and an all around badly written character.

Edited December 1, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Kristen]

I didn't not like Beth, but I didn't not not like Beth, but the fact that she got killed while Father Moron and Eugene, the liar - both of whom have put lives in peril and essentially killed people- live on annoys the shit out of me. I think Beth's character had a little more growth in her, and it's a shame her story got cut short. I was stunned and saddened, of course, but even more so while watching poor little Emily Kinney choke back tears on Talking Dead. The actors being sad about her departure gives me the sads as well.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Kristen

[JackONeill]

But I think Rick is the most realistic one.  For whatever reason (former cop?), he's always been looked to as the leader.  I don't think he wants that.  But he needs to keep Carl and Judith safe, and the others have signed on with him, in varying degrees (and depending upon which season.)  So, he feels obligated in a couple of ways to help/save these people. They need him, but he needs them to help in the protection of Carl (less of an issue nowadays) and Judith.  But with that comes .  . frustration.  (And that's an understatement.)  For example, he probably feels at least somewhat responsible for Beth dying.  (Maybe not any leader would feel this way, but I think Rick does.)  He wants to keep everyone safe, but he knows in this world that's impossible.  But he tries, and he tries damn hard, and sometimes things go way wrong.  So, he rages at the world, and when he needs to, he'll rip out someone's throat.  That's what this world is.  At least, at the current moment.  Maybe in a few years, once civilization starts to regrow, Rick will have outlived his usefulness.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JackONeill

[Constantinople]

Re the hostage exchange:  could we just once, just one time, get to see this group conceive of a plan that ends up WORKING?  Seriously, show.  It's almost getting unrealistic that these guys can't seem to accomplish anything at all.

Wasn't the plan to take out Gareth & The Termites at the church a success? I don't recall them losing anyone as a result, and it was pretty high risk, but I think it worked out.

[CletusMusashi]

Kind of hard to consider the Gareth execution a complete win, though, since Bob still dies.

Oh, not because of their plan. Not even just because of Gareth- he'd have died anyway, from when everyone was so stupid they wanted to go swimming with zombies.

But still, he was their friend and you don't have a friend die and then walk away feeling all happy and victorious.

Unless you're a Joss Whedon character.

This time around, the only thing Rick could decisively have done differently was keeping Noah a secret from Dawn. But that would mean going in with nobody who knows their way around first hand, and with one less gun, and without a potential co-negotiator who actually knows all the people involved.

I assume Rick pushed for a better location, but the opposition would not budge on the indoor setting. 

Nobody likes to criticize Rick more than I do, but he did as much right as he could have. It wasn't his fault that Dawn and Beth were idiots. And he certainly couldn't have predicted that Beth, of all people, was going to amp things up by starting a knife fight in the middle of it all.

Edited December 1, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Brooke0707]

I take it that they want the message to be: there is no hope. Which, I mean, tbh, I'd probably feel like that in a ZA, but I'm watching this show for entertainment. I like darkness and gore, but I also need a little something else. A little brightness. Women different from bad ass weapon wielding women like Michonne and Carol. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them as well, but I'd like a little variety. And no, I don't count dumbass Gabriel and Tyrese as giving me that "variety."

 

My concern is that as they kill of the core group, they are not replacing the dead with characters I care about. Eugene, Abraham, Rosita, Gabriel, Noah, Tyrese, etc. are not the same to me as Herschel, Beth, Andrea, etc. Like they could all die and I'd be like "meh." So they can kill of the core group for the "OMG THAT SO HURTZ" factor, but if they are not replenishing the cast with people that I'm invested in and will never be invested in (I don't care if Eugene spends the rest of his days being a bad ass, I don't give a crap about him), then what does it matter? At some point, we will be left with Rick, Carl, and perhaps Daryl and a shit ton of people that I don't care about.

 

Also, I don't get why they didn't kill her, but make her conscious for a bit (I mean, come on, Bob was rambling on for hours), so she could say her goodbyes. It was so anticlimactic. Even the camera work was weird because it was like the focus wasn't even on Beth when she died. Her final moments/motives weren't clear IMO and that is bad writing. If Scott Gimple has to give interviews or we have to watch TTD to understand something, they are just not doing their jobs. If I have to rewind shit several times to understand what happened, again, not doing their jobs (IMO). Don't make a show with the assumption that everyone has DVR.

 

Noah shouldn't have even gone in with them. Like it's not like they needed him for his amazing ass kicking skills. Just keep him back at HQ. Wtf. Why was he there? To be like "haha Dawn, got away from you, see that?!?" Or was he there so that Rick could use him as a negotiating chess piece? In which case, Rick should have been all "Um Beth, let the negotiating chess piece do his job and let him go. We will sneak him out later." All so senseless.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Brooke0707

[FishyJoe]

I think the whole hospital was a lot far fetched in the first place. How the heck did they get all the fuel? Just to run the laundry alone would have taken thousands of gallons. Not to mention a fleet of gas guzzling patrol cars doing daily patrols. Why did this one group seem to have boundless resources while all the others were digging through trash. It would take a lot more than snatch an grabs to keep the place running. Did they have a nuclear power plant in the basement or something?

[Bryce Lynch]

Were we supposed to see Beth's attack of Dawn as heroic and brave? Because to me it just seemed angry, impulsive, and ill-conceived. How did she know it would end with only Dawn and herself dead? It could have sparked a bloodbath.

Ask my family--I have had no use for Beth all along. I called her Li'l Useless for ages because it took me a year or more to learn her name. So yeah . . . finally.

It also seemed unnecessary.  I don't think Dawn's crew, who were already turning on her, were going to get into a gunfight over Noah.  The prisoners had already been exchanged and Noah was with Rick's group.  If Rick had simply said in his badass voice, "We're leaving, and Noah is coming with us!", Dawn would have backed down and if she didn't, one of her own people, probably would have put a bullet in the back of her head. 

[CletusMusashi]

I think the whole hospital was a lot far fetched in the first place. How the heck did they get all the fuel? Just to run the laundry alone would have taken thousands of gallons. Not to mention a fleet of gas guzzling patrol cars doing daily patrols. Why did this one group seem to have boundless resources while all the others were digging through trash. It would take a lot more than snatch an grabs to keep the place running. Did they have a nuclear power plant in the basement or something?

Guinea pig treadmills. If they don't run fast enough, they get too fat and the doctor eats them.

[CaughtOnTape]

The thing that made me raise my eyebrows the most this episode was Dawn on the stationary bike.

 

Even in the zombie apocalypse, still gotta get your fitness on. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I think the whole hospital was a lot far fetched in the first place. How the heck did they get all the fuel? Just to run the laundry alone would have taken thousands of gallons. Not to mention a fleet of gas guzzling patrol cars doing daily patrols. Why did this one group seem to have boundless resources while all the others were digging through trash. It would take a lot more than snatch an grabs to keep the place running. Did they have a nuclear power plant in the basement or something?

I agree.  I also think that it is ridiculous that they would keep the wards as slaves, meaning they would consume precious food, water, power, etc.  I could see the sick,rapist cops keeping a couple of the women as sex slaves, but other than that, and the doctor, I don't think  any of the other wards provided any services nearly valuable enough to justify "wasting" resources on them.  I would think they would be more often throwing wards out on the street, against their objections, rather than keeping them imprisoned to "pay off their debts". 

[bobbyjoe]

The show needs to learn that actions speak a thousand words... Its show not tell.

 

Note to television producers: if your "midseason finale" is chock full of characters talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and talking, you're doing it wrong.

[PunkyMouse]

Finally caught up on the show and all I can say is... WTF? Beth dies shanking Dawn in the armpit? Lame.

[CletusMusashi]

And the same story could have been told, but better, if they even thought about what "wards" might be useful for. Like with Beth, she suddenly had medical training from her online ZA degree, but Noah? A guy who folds laundry well isn't worth an extensive manhunt. Couldn't they have made him, say, the tech guy, who keeps the hospital machinery repaired? Or an electrician? Or a plumber? Or even an air conditioning repairman? 

[Ellaria]

I take it that they want the message to be: there is no hope. Which, I mean, tbh, I'd probably feel like that in a ZA, but I'm watching this show for entertainment. I like darkness and gore, but I also need a little something else. A little brightness...

 

...My concern is that as they kill of the core group, they are not replacing the dead with characters I care about. Eugene, Abraham, Rosita, Gabriel, Noah, Tyrese, etc. are not the same to me as Herschel, Beth, Andrea, etc. Like they could all die and I'd be like "meh." So they can kill of the core group for the "OMG THAT SO HURTZ" factor, but if they are not replenishing the cast with people that I'm invested in and will never be invested in (I don't care if Eugene spends the rest of his days being a bad ass, I don't give a crap about him), then what does it matter? At some point, we will be left with Rick, Carl, and perhaps Daryl and a shit ton of people that I don't care about.

 

Agree and I have felt this way for awhile. This is entertainment; it can't be all darkness, all the time. The little rays of hope can't always be extinguished. This isn't an easy task...otherwise all of us would be showrunners. But there has to be some reason to keep watching.

 

I, too, get concerned about this show being populated with characters that I don't care about. Yes, realism is necessary; people will die, especially in situations like childbirth. However, I don't want to keep losing characters that I get "attached to" and then be expected to jump right in with the newbies.

 

 

Me neither, but continuing to take precious episodes to worldbuild with characters I don't care about isn't going to work for me.  I guess my question about the series of Big Bads is simply why don't we also meet groups more like CDB along the way?  It seems like some of them would be getting it (closer to) right. Maybe we're just unlucky in who we run into....  I know it would muck things up narratively, but couldn't we bump into a nice group of folks who would let CDB stay in their isolation cell for the night and then usher them safely along their way? Or something?  Or evidence that such people had existed?  In fact that was a complaint I had when the whole Woodbury thing went down--I would have thought that someone would have at least tried to put things back together. I guess Morales did, but then along came "Brian."  Anyway, I understand the complications in trying to set up a functioning society now.  Do we have to keep reviewing it?  I hope not but I don't see an alternative.

 

Yes, having them encounter another version of CDB would be novel rather than the large assortment of monsters that they manage to stumble upon. And before everyone jumps in to say how boring those episodes would be...I'm not suggesting that they spend a season doing laundry. (We already had that!) Seeing another relatively sane community that is struggling with the same issues as the Grimes Gang would be a welcome change for an episode or two. We aren't seeing any meaningful world-building so why hope that our friends can accomplish this in their own way.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[Bryce Lynch]

For those who see a racial aspect to Dawn wanting to keep Noah, I don't think that was it at all.  I think she was desperately trying to show the other cops that she was still "in control" and thought demanding Noah would make her look "strong", when in fact it made her look like a reckless idiot. 

[kikismom]

They have struggled over the years to find a sustainable balance between character development and action. Episodes like "Clear" and "The Grove" focused more on character building yet still were able to amp up feelings of tension and fear.

 

Scott Gimple needs to be writer more and showrunner less. He's responsible for the most well-written episodes, but he can't teach it to the other writers.

 In fact that was a complaint I had when the whole Woodbury thing went down--I would have thought that someone would have at least tried to put things back together. I guess Morales did, but then along came "Brian." 

 

 

I think the farm and the prison, though, did serve a sort of a touchstone for the whole "family".  They had, for a moment, peace and  relative safety.

I think for Morales you meant to say Martinez.

 

Here's the thing--(IMO)--it wasn't just the peace and safety of the farm or prison.

Those were the seasons when each exchange between the characters of "our group" was important!! There was interpersonal conflict, and interpersonal connections constantly in flux. You didn't want to miss a moment.

Now? Now it's assumed they are all straightened out with each other, and if they aren't, someone just gives in. Glenn and Maggie will just go with Abe. Rick will just defer to Tyreese and Daryl.

What happened to gossipy nosy curious Glenn? What happened to telling on people? We have Tyreese confess...but we won't tell. Hey on the farm that would have been a wild episode. We know about what Carol did (besides Karvid, I mean about Lizzie/Mika). But don't tell. I wish Shane and Dale were around to hear that one. Just imagine Lori and Andrea putting their two cents in.

I think the show would be vastly more interesting if they stopped being so entirely concerned with temp guest stars and guest villains and turned the conversations/conflicts inward a lot more.

You can still fight Termites; do you have to obsess about their motives? I'd rather have a scene of Carl confront his Dad about Michonne--do you have intentions old man or what? Make a move or step aside. Glenn and Rosita?  How about Daryl or someone just lose it and get some serious shit worked out with bossy Abraham?

Every day in the farm or prison there was a changing scorecard on who was pissed, who was bonding, who was losing their marbles, what one said to another. Now it's like, i'm okay with either way, me too, what she said, ditto.

 

[Bryce Lynch]

The thing that made me raise my eyebrows the most this episode was Dawn on the stationary bike.

 

Even in the zombie apocalypse, still gotta get your fitness on. 

I don't think she was exercising.  I think she was helping provide electricity for the facility.  The guinea pig can't do it all on his own, you know. :)

Edited December 1, 2014 by Bryce Lynch

[Caelicola]

The thing that made me raise my eyebrows the most this episode was Dawn on the stationary bike.

 

Even in the zombie apocalypse, still gotta get your fitness on.

As fun as I find the idea of Dawn being so taken with fitness that not even the ZA stops her, I think that's the way they power the generators. We saw her cycling in Slabtown as well.

It's actually a thing!

...or were you obviously kidding? I'm not that sharp when it comes to decoding tone...

 

Or, you know, what Bryce Lynch said more wittily.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Caelicola

[Iguessnot]

 

Were we supposed to see Beth's attack of Dawn as heroic and brave? Because to me it just seemed angry, impulsive, and ill-conceived. How did she know it would end with only Dawn and herself dead? It could have sparked a bloodbath.

 

Well remember Beth was going to kill the doctor in the hallway because she was angry. Numbskull.

[Diane M]

Carol was internally bleeding day before.......

 

The doctor wasn't sure about internal injuries.  Obviously, he was wrong and she was just bruised from the car hitting her.

 

I also don't buy at all that Maggie didn't give a fuck about Beth simply because we didn't see her do so. There are a lot of thing we don't see but can reasonably assume that people do.

 

I agree, but the writers should have added a line or two where Maggie expressed concern for her sister.  Obviously, a lot of viewers are blaming Maggie for forgetting her sister when it's really the writer's fault, not the character.

 

 In the preview Michonne says something is 100 miles? is that the next destination/plan? 

 

They're probably going to Virginia where Noah lives.

 

I'm relieved that the 'family' has left the hospital and will be on the road again in February. Sorry about Beth, but happy that Carol didn't die.

[Helena Dax]

For those who see a racial aspect to Dawn wanting to keep Noah, I don't think that was it at all.  I think she was desperately trying to show the other cops that she was still "in control" and thought demanding Noah would make her look "strong", when in fact it made her look like a reckless idiot. 

I don't think it was, but if Rick had turned the situation into one, she would have given in, I'm sure. She would have hated to be labeled as a racist. Remember, she's a good person! She's saving those people! It's not her fault there's so much rape going on and stuff!

[Milaxx]

OOOOOOOH!!! That's what that was all about?!  You know, I hate it when shows dumb things down for the viewers, but that went over my head.  That makes much more sense to me now.

 

Another thing that didn't make sense: I get that Beth went stabbity on Dawn and Dawn reacted and accidentally shot her in the head. But, why did Beth stab her in the first place?!  She said something like, "I get it now"  Get what?

 

All I can piece together is Beth "got" that Dawn was a bad person (which she already knew) and decided she'd stab her in front of two hostile groups ready to kill each other?

 

What the fuck was she thinking?  Am I missing something? I have to be missing something.

  Dawn told this long rambling story about her former partner who went bad and how she eventually had to put him down. What Beth "got" was that it was time to put Dawn down.

When Sasha said it was good that Tyreese hadn't changed, I was like, "No! No it's not!" I don't remember if Tyreese knew at that point that Martin was a straight up cannibal, but he did know Martin threatened to kill a baby. Tyreese's gentleness was endearing at first but Lordy, a literal teddy bear at this point would provide better defense.

  Agreed. I don't mind playing Tyreese as the gentle sleeping giant character. I just need him to know when he has to kill. Leaving Martin, a cannibal who was threatening a baby mere moments before was just stupid.

My other problems with the episode. Carol was internally bleeding day before and now not only she survived, she can walk on her own. And Rick´s decision to leave the Hospital was clearly based on AMC budget calculations instead of on common sense.

  Carol wasn't bleeding internally. The doctor guessed that she might be. However she survived being taken off life support and given that injection by Beth. I think we're supposed to notice Carol tossing and turning in the bed in that scene where they are in her room as an indication that she was just badly shaken up and/or possibly concussed.

Meaning, it's the zombie apocalypse and Maggie has lost most of her family to humans, not zombies.

  It's 50/50. Her stepbrother Shawn & stepmother Annette were walkers in the barn. Hershel & Beth are the ones who were killed by humans. Otis was a farm hand, not a relative.

 

But the group did settle down for long stretches at the farm and then the prison. Instead of enjoying this, lots of fans bitched that the show was boring and too talky with not enough action so I don't think that nomadic lifestyle on tv is all on Kirkman. However, I do think that in the comics he throws "barbarism" whether they are on the move or not. There is a relentless nihilism that our survivors confront even as they desperately try to hold on to hope. There are no easy solutions to violent situations that arise no matter how many times they occur. Quite frankly, I love this about TWD.

My problem with those were they really didn't think through both time. Season was the the neverending search for Sophia. It was boring because of the Sophia search. Especially since most of us had already figured out that she was dead and in the barn early on. The prison was stupid because they didn't do common sense things like completely clearing out the various tunnels and shoring up the fences. When the pigs got sick they didn't quarantine and watch the food supply. By comparison both Terminus and Woodbury looked better protected. I think the writers don't believe they can do any secure world building without losing anyway to introduce drama to the crew. I disagree because I think other traveling groups and on going supply runs could bring just as much dramatic tension to the show.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Milaxx

[BrokenRemote]

As far as Our Group's filth level goes, it seems to me that only the men are shown consistently grungy each week. Mr. Ouisch has long tired of me griping every week "Maggie's/Beth's/Rosita's/Tara's clothes could stand up on their own, but their hair is always freshly washed and fluffy." The men's hair is always shown pretty much as oily and matted as the rest of their flesh (not counting the teeth, that's another story), but the women always have Hollywood-style messy hair. I go two days without a shampoo and my roots clump together at the scalp and my tresses get stringy. Beth has been on the run with Daryl for days, yet while she munches smoked snake with him her blonde tresses are fluffy clean from the scalp to the ends. Oh sure, the set dressers have pulled it back into a messy ponytail with one haphazard braid thrown in for good measure, but that is clearly a head full of freshly scrubbed hair. But Shell Oil could have pumped 20 barrels from Daryl's head in that same scene.

The whole hospital arc with the constant protestations of "X is/was a good cop" rang hollow because all of the cops at Grady apparently accepted Chief Dawn's pecking order. Even if they weren't of the rapey variety, they stood by and let one of their own physically abuse an elderly ward because he hadn't properly patched a uniform sleeve. Was this a writing problem or an acting problem? Because, as mentioned upthread, even with the same limited screen time we were still able to twig onto the backstory of the Termites and quickly deduce their raison d'etre. We knew they were bad, we knew why, and we knew what must be done. With the Grady Group we knew nothing but confusion and conflicting stories.

I thought that was the point. Everyone was trained to say 'he is/was a good cop' no matter what they truly thought. Witness the hostages insisting OtherBob was eaten by walkers and that he was a good cop. Like they knew the lie of both, they were saying it with a wink to Rick, but knew they were expected to say it at Grady. Edited December 1, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[mandolin]

But I think Rick is the most realistic one. For whatever reason (former cop?), he's always been looked to as the leader. I don't think he wants that. But he needs to keep Carl and Judith safe, and the others have signed on with him, in varying degrees (and depending upon which season.) So, he feels obligated in a couple of ways to help/save these people. They need him, but he needs them to help in the protection of Carl (less of an issue nowadays) and Judith. But with that comes . . frustration. (And that's an understatement.) For example, he probably feels at least somewhat responsible for Beth dying. (Maybe not any leader would feel this way, but I think Rick does.) He wants to keep everyone safe, but he knows in this world that's impossible. But he tries, and he tries damn hard, and sometimes things go way wrong. So, he rages at the world, and when he needs to, he'll rip out someone's throat. That's what this world is. At least, at the current moment. Maybe in a few years, once civilization starts to regrow, Rick will have outlived his usefulness.

Agree with this a lot (except Rick outgrowing his usefulness… Never!). Great post though.

[Mu Shu]

Great points.  And once again I have to ask, can't these people conceive and execute a plan that WORKS??  I get that the series is supposed to be nihilistic and dark, but it's starting to be comical that everything they do turns to s**t.

 

Well said, I agree.  And it would have been interesting to see the new, strong Beth interact with the group after her experiences.

 

Ah ha ha!  kj4ever, you nailed it.

 

I like to think that the hospital community really will improve now that Dawn and the "bad cops" are gone.  And does anyone else think that Rick & Co. were a little precipitous in rejecting the offer to live at the hospital?  The Ricktatorship group is finally back together.  They have no place to live.  They outnumber and out-badass the cops and wards.  The hospital has food, medicine, shelter and beds.  Yet the Ricktatorship prefers to travel randomly in a fire truck?

What it boiled down to was basically asshole Dawn and two raper cops vs at least 5 good cops,  the doctor, and the "wards".    The fact that these people were basically content to let Dawn and the rapers run rough shod over them makes me think they wouldn't be the best people to hang with.   

[Iguessnot]

We got exposition about Dawn's former partner and how he went bad & Dawn had to put him down. Basically it was setup to make us see that it was Dawn and just a few of the cops like Bob 2.0 who were really the bad guys. Dawn had now become like her partner Hansen and needed to be put down. Beth apparently had some sort of epiphany about this and tried to take her out, but missed the jugular and ended up getting shot herself.

He was just begging for mercy saying they were safe in the hospital and telling Rick that they would die outside of the hospital.

 

Milaxx, what was the exposition? All I ever heard were vague musings about having people's back and not letting people down. Maybe my mind is clouded but I don't recall being told what happened. Even Dawn saying she killed Hansen doesn't tell me why this cops formed this laundry obsessed group.Even the rape scenario was weirdly undefinable.

[Milaxx]

Milaxx, what was the exposition? All I ever heard were vague musings about having people's back and not letting people down. Maybe my mind is clouded but I don't recall being told what happened. Even Dawn saying she killed Hansen doesn't tell me why this cops formed this laundry obsessed group.Even the rape scenario was weirdly undefinable.

 

My take is that Dawn was telling this out of the blue tale about how her ex partner was a good cop and then went bad and how Dawn had to put him down was supposed to parallel Beth having to put down Dawn because she was a formerly good cop who had now become bad. In essence Beth saying she knew what she had to do was her believing it was her turn to put the bad person down.

[MissL]

I've read the whole thread and I don't think I saw this comment...WHY was the hostage exchange in the hospital hallway? Why on earth would Rick agree to that?  I would think Dawn and crew has the advantage knowing the hospital the way they do (even with Rick's team having Noah). It just didn't seem smart.  

 

Actually the whole scene was stupid and I'm still angry that Beth's death seems to be more for shock value than to enhance the plot. I love you but come ON show.

[GaT]

I know that it was supposed to be a journey of realization for Fr. Gabriel but it was poorly executed. He saw Bob leave with the leg attached and he saw Bob return without said leg. What did he think happened in between? The scene of him agonizing over the maggoty leg was sort of silly, especially with a school full of zombies close by. The entire sequence seemed to be an excuse to bring a hoard down on the church.

 

 

This part actually made me laugh during the show, where else did he think the leg went to? It just fell off & so Bob decided to play a foolie on him? 

[Rosiejuliemom]

Honestly, they could just go back to Terminus. Or the prison. Or Woodbury. And fix the place up. The fire engine can serve as a temporary barrier while you're putting fences back up. Sure, you might have to run from somebody again. But if for a year or so you've got a safe home, take it. It's not like life on the road is any safer.

 

The prison was overrun when the tank took out the fences, the Governor torched Woodbury, and Terminus was overrun and might have eventually burned. I'd imagine the danger/time necessary would make the prison and Terminus more trouble to retake than they are worth. If they were salvageable at all. Instead of heading to VA, the group should go to Morgan's Fortress of Solitude. 

But just to let you know TWD, you have female fans too, so next time how about you kill off someone darker and tougher like Carl, Daryl, Michonne, or Carol to even up the ledger. The last time we had that would have been Shane, I think? I don't count non-sympathetic baddies like the Governor. 

 

As someone already mentioned, Merle kept jumping back and forth over the good/bad line in a delightfully entertaining way. Hell, I had moments of sympathy and even fondness for the Governor up to the point when he took out Hershel.

 

Oh, new idea for next season...the guilt of lying starts to warp Eugene into the next big bad. It could work if he took a few levels in badass.

 

Interesting that Rick chose this week to clean up his appearance a little bit. His beard is very neatly lined, for example. Maybe it was before, but he always had so much dirt and gore on himself that you couldn't tell. At the very least, that indicates he washed his neck before this episode. Also, the beard hair itself is less Mansonesque. He appears to have spent some time with a brush.

I would like to know: why the change?

1. He plans to return as a triumphant hero and then bang Michonne until her hair stands on end.

2. He's actually been deeply, secretly in love with Beth for quite some time, and tidied up in order to impress her.

3. One of the hostages gave him a makeover. Or, more likely, demanded that Noah do it.

4. Tyreese's masculinity is receding even faster than we realized, and he gave Rick a makeover.

5. Rick is still pining for Lori, and heard that he was about to meet a wishy-washy but self-centered brunette with a horrible personality, well-toned ass, and history of associating with homicidal unstable rapists.

6. Somebody intelligent in the group, perhaps Sasha, convinced him that the hostage exchange might go better if he didn't go in there looking like a barbarian on crack. This is actually, in my opinion, the most likely hypothesis. I'd like to have seen that part of the episode, though. And don't tell me there wasn't room, because they have all the time in world for the Adventures of Father Pee Pants or the Tyreese Sucks Now Hour.

 

 

I'm going to go with #1 with a dash of #6. However, #5 did make me choke on my coffee so bravo on that.

[TVFan17]

I wasn't thrilled with the episode.  There were some good moments here and there, but overall I felt it was weak for a MSF.  Being on the West Coast I couldn't bear the thought of waiting an extra 3 hours to find out what happened, so I was reading along with the live discussion thread as the episode was unfolding.  As I read everyone's comments about what was happening onscreen I thought, "Wow.  It sounds like there is way too much of Dawn and the cops in this episode.  Maybe it won't seem like too much when I finally watch it."

 

So, when I finally watched "Coda" 3 hours later I thought, "Wow.  There's way too much of Dawn and the cops."  I just didn't care about them.  At all.  I was never invested enough in Dawn -- either as a potentially good person or as an evil villain -- to care what happened to her.  I didn't give two hoots about any of the cops, except I knew they should die because they were raping and abusing people.  That whole hospital/cop story ate up too much screen time, and it all ended up where it was expected to end up -- with Beth dead.

 

I also thought it was mildly amusing that Carol was suddenly out of bed and up on her feet.  What was the point of the plot development that had her ending up in the hospital again?  Why was it even necessary to the story other than to give Daryl an extra reason to get into the hospital?

 

And Maggie's reaction to seeing her dead sister!  Now... I know this has been said many times, in many ways, by many people, but... if Maggie had ever bothered to even talk about her sister or act concerned about Beth's whereabouts in previous episodes, her display of emotion would have been fitting and within context.  However, because the writers wrote Maggie as essentially "forgetting" about Beth since their dad was murdered, her reaction and anguished cries felt very out of context and overdone.  It's not that Lauren Cohan did a bad job of acting out that scene -- she was fine -- but it didn't seem like the reaction of a person who had barely mentioned her sister, or even her father, since that whole incident occurred.  Even if she had been in denial that her sister was alive, or even if she had convinced herself that Beth was dead and didn't want to have hope, it just seemed like that 'drop-to-the-knees-in-grief' reaction was a bit much for Maggie.  I could see her doing that if Glenn died, but it didn't make sense given the way she had treated Beth's absence from the group this season and last.  I would have expected a somewhat quieter reaction from Maggie upon seeing Daryl carrying Beth's lifeless body.

[morgankobi]

The thing that made me raise my eyebrows the most this episode was Dawn on the stationary bike.

 

Even in the zombie apocalypse, still gotta get your fitness on. 

#1 rule for the ZA: Cardio!

 

So I know that there isn't some underground gossip train running throughout the "living," but I'd still like to think that at some point, CDB is going to run into some well-established group who cowers at the name Rick Grimes. Every well-maintained, stable group/situation they run across is demolished in a few episodes (CDC, Woodberry, the three guys at the prison, the farm, Terminus, the Merry Band of Rapists, Father Pee Pants and his church set-up, etc.). You'd think they'd wander upon some group singing songs about CDB and it's mythical bearded leader who will either save you or destroy you. 

 

*Note I didn't say these set-ups were good, just that they were functioning and had been for some time.

 

ETA: the problem with the "story" of Dawn's partner was that it came in little chunks, and not in a suspenseful way (to me, since I couldn't have cared less by the time we found out Dawn killed him). I think we didn't even hear that Dawn put him down until O'Donnell said it. She had been leaving that out of what she was telling Beth.

Edited December 1, 2014 by morgankobi

[LilySilver]

I've read the whole thread and I don't think I saw this comment...WHY was the hostage exchange in the hospital hallway? Why on earth would Rick agree to that?  I would think Dawn and crew has the advantage knowing the hospital the way they do (even with Rick's team having Noah). It just didn't seem smart.  

 

Actually the whole scene was stupid and I'm still angry that Beth's death seems to be more for shock value than to enhance the plot. I love you but come ON show.

I was just coming here to say that. It distracted me to the point that Beth's death probably impacted me less than it would have otherwise.  I'm trying to think of a production reason that it would have been so important to shoot the scene in the hallway, and to make the exchange in that manner, and with the entire "away team" right there together with no one left back if things went wrong?  Not hardly.  Not Rick Grimes.

 

I think for Morales you meant to say Martinez.

 

Yes, thanks Kikismom.  I would think we'd be seeing other RV camps dotting the landscape here and there--it wasn't a bad idea.  Or fortifications of suburban neighborhoods....I guess there aren't that many people left?    I think I remember reading that the showrunners were assuming that 1 in 5,000 survived, initially. Anyway, they make it seem like everyone left is either helpless ninnies (Woodburyites, wards, FPP, and fruit hippies) or eeeeeevil.  Or cartoony like our new folks (who are also ninnies if you ask me--except the lovely Miss Rosita.)  It seemed like the group with Martinez was a little dumb, too, but within the range of normal until the Governor returned.  Did all the good, solid, smart, badasses left in Georgia just happen to end up with Rick?

[Mu Shu]

I'm still wondering how these yahoos got enough pellets to feed the guinea pigs they apparently were farming.    Each person would need a pig a day, at least.   That's a lot of pigs to keep going.     Maybe they run wild in downtown Atlanta like nutria rats in the swamps?

 

Whoever decided that a scene involving a cop knocking down an old man  for not darning his shirt was villainy needs to take a writing course, or 50.    

 

Since the Tyrese/Saha scene was stupid, I re wrote the dialogue:

 

Ty:  "Sasha, don't feel bad.    We've all had a hostage get the jump on us"

Sasha:  "Say what?"

Ty:  "Well, Carol and me?  We found a guy radioing someone by the shack.   We took him hostage,  Carol went to save everyone, and I stayed behind to babysit, and he got the jump on me.   Tried to kill Judith".

Sasha:  "WHAT??"

Ty:   "Well,  I beat him up pretty badly, but he was still alive.   I lied to Carol that he was dead.   Funny thing....."

Sasha:  "What's so funny Tyrese?"

Ty:  Well, heh,   um he probably radioed the Termites his location which is probably maybe  almost certainly how they found us".

Sasha: "You imbecile!   They ate Bob's leg!"

TY:  "Well,  uh,  I DID mercy kill Bob for you...."

Sasha:   "You wouldn't  have had to mercy kill Bob if your dumb ass had taken him (Martin)  out in the first place!"

Ty:   (Deflecting), "Well, um, uh...Carol killed David and Karen!"

Sasha:  "WHO???"

[Rosiejuliemom]

#1 rule for the ZA: Cardio!

 

So I know that there isn't some underground gossip train running throughout the "living," but I'd still like to think that at some point, CDB is going to run into some well-established group who cowers at the name Rick Grimes. Every well-maintained, stable group/situation they run across is demolished in a few episodes (CDC, Woodberry, the three guys at the prison, the farm, Terminus, the Merry Band of Rapists, Father Pee Pants and his church set-up, etc.). You'd think they'd wander upon some group singing songs about CDB and it's mythical bearded leader who will either save you or destroy you. 

 

*Note I didn't say these set-ups were good, just that they were functioning and had been for some time.

 

The Vatos and the Claim Gang (or is that the Merry Band of Rapists?), and even Morgan and Duane wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe Hershel put it best when he said that CDB was like a plague back on the farm.

 

I'm now set on the idea of an episode focusing on a group of survivors and how their entire set-up goes to hell once Rick & Co. show up.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rosiejuliemom

[NoWillToResist]

One thing about Beth's weapon... it is possible to stab through kevlar, with a good knife. This may well be a fact that Daryl's mentioned to her.

 

I cannot fathom how or when or why that conversation would have taken place between Beth and Daryl. :)

 

  So, it seems like most of you are confident that Dawn's "I knew you'd be back" was directed at Noah? 

   I'm relieved to hear that, because it really seemed to me that it was directed at Beth.  Which meant that the only way I could make sense of Beth's actions was interpreting her "I get it now" response as meaning:  "Okay, so you actually saved me those times because you're an Evil Dyke who has the hots for me, and you're as rapey as the men, so now I must kill you."  Which seemed really jarring.

 

I also thought the comment was directed at Beth. I figured she took Beth's hug with Noah as an indicator that Beth was choosing to remain at the hospital, rather than her saying goodbye and/or thanks to Noah for getting my people back here.

 

It also seemed unnecessary.  I don't think Dawn's crew, who were already turning on her, were going to get into a gunfight over Noah.  The prisoners had already been exchanged and Noah was with Rick's group.  If Rick had simply said in his badass voice, "We're leaving, and Noah is coming with us!", Dawn would have backed down and if she didn't, one of her own people, probably would have put a bullet in the back of her head. 

 

Hell, when she first said that she'd also need Noah, one of the people behind her started to protest and Dawn shut them down. I was disappointed that Rick didn't use that as leverage. I mean, seriously, they all had their respective people. What was Dawn going to do if Rick and his crew said "uh, no. Fuck you, lady. Noah doesn't want to be here and, hey guess what, he doesn't have to stay. Bye now!"? If she pulled a gun on him, all he would have to do is direct his attention to the other cops and tell them to make a choice: have Dawn stand down from her ridiculous demand or prepare to die. :)

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the bit in Dawn and Beth's conversation where Dawn says "I'm not stupid. I know that you know her [Carol]." Anyone want to clue me in on how/why Dawn knows this? Because sweet, idealistic Beth wanted to save someone, that means she knew the person? Really? Knowing how far away Beth was when she was snagged, why would Dawn suspect that Beth and Carol know each other other? And even if I can accept that explanation, shouldn't Dawn have been on the alert then? Because the sudden arrival of someone who Beth knows should be a pretty big indicator that rescue/trouble is afoot.