S03.E07: Draw Back Your Bow

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder; Laurel-bashing (and by extension, KC-bashing) is not acceptable here.

 

It is enough to say Laurel was not in this episode. That is all you need to say.

[statsgirl]

So Ray Palmer buys a company and wants to rename it after himself…the horror!  Oliver washed his hands of QC weeks ago so I'm not buying that Felicity is being a bad friend because she isn't scolding Ray for changing the name. QC doesn't have the best reputation and a lot of that is because Oliver was a crappy CEO, frankly I'm surprised the board didn't change the name months ago. 

I don't think anyone said Felicity was being a bad friend because she isn't scolding Ray for changing the name. But I do think she should have told Oliver it was coming so he didn't have to see it on TV without knowing it was coming. Because even though he was a crappy CEO, Felicity knew how important it was to him to get his family's company back in ep 1 so not giving him a head's up was insensitive.

 

I don't think that Palmer had actually bought the company, in fact probably even he doesn't have enough money to buy it outright although he could afford to buy Tech Village, but QC is going to cost a lot more than $3 million.  He's just the CEO and CEO's don't rename the company after themselves.  It's called Facebook, not Sandburg Technology.

 

I was really hoping that Oliver throwing things in the Arrow cave wasn't about Felicity and Ray, but like his seeing the kiss, this show went for the lowest common denominator.

 

 

See, logically I know you're right. I know Ray is a foil. I've always thought it even though I dislike Ray immensely. I knew he was a means to an end. He's a giant walking plot point, sadly. But I just don't trust these writers, especially with the way Felicity reacted tonight. I honestly wouldn't have much of a problem if she hadn't been so 'Ray is so wonderful' all of a sudden. The jump is too much for me. And what with the way everything is being written around a plot to make Laurel BC, I have zero faith right now. But as I said, I'm gonna hold on and see how the big Olicity scene plays out in 309. I think that will either make me feel better or worse!

I don't like what this plot is turning Felicity into.  I don't mind it hurting Oliver because he's been a douche a lot of times but Felicity has done nothing but try to live her life the best she can and be kind to people, so I hate that 1) she's being turned into a not-nice person and 2) she's being separated from her boys because she's not willing to be Oliver's doormat.

 

I'll hang in for 309 too but if Felicity is still being dumped on and it's the rise of the Black Canary, I can't see any reason to watch in 2015.

[Xenith22]

I would like to reiterate my original question from when we first saw the DJ in the previews: what's the over/under on when Malcolm puts an arrow through this guy?

That is assuming that Malcolm did not send him to ensure a wedge is driven between Thea and Roy and that they do not get back together (he could also run interference between Thea and Oliver.  I dunno i guess it just bugged me that we did not get any kind of name from him, which makes me think his name could be important when revealed?  Plus they showed the scene of Malcolm watching Thea and Oliver together and being not thrilled in the previously.  I could just be reading into stuff too much...

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was their intention. After the EP's killed Sara to make Laurel relevant because comics, I have no faith that they won't destroy everything else in their path to comic endgame. I was trying to be positive and I've always believed Ray is just a foil for Oliver/Olicity in the long run but now I'm not feeling so sure. I'm going to see if I still feel the same way after 309.

I dunno I mean other than Laurel becoming Black Canary there is not a whole lot more of comic endgame to follow in the new 52.  Oliver and Dinah are not together in the new 52 they dated and broke up with the marriage having now been retconned to never happening (she is married to Kurt Lance who I now wonder if Arrow will introduce with a slightly different name if the show lasts enough seasons?).  If anything the comics are mirroring the show now with Diggle and Felicity now existing and being part of team Green Arrow.  Thea does not really exist although Oliver does have a different ninja trained sister sidekick.  So what more is there really to do except for Roy's eventual drug problem and split from the team (I would be SHOCKED if this did happen eventually on the show.)  The show really does have a pretty blank slate to write including who Oliver winds up with compared to what Smallville had to deal with to miror comic continuity.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Xenith22

[KenyaJ]

I was trying to be positive and I've always believed Ray is just a foil for Oliver/Olicity in the long run but now I'm not feeling so sure.

I would have been worried if the show had laid any type of foundation for Ray and Felicity as a romantic pairing, but they couldn't even be bothered. Until tonight, had there been any indication that Felicity was even attracted to Ray? BR obviously is attractive and it's not difficult to see why Felicity would be attracted to him, but treating it as an established fact in this episode with no buildup made it seem so forced and plot driven. The only thing it solidified for me is that Ray is no real threat to Olicity at all. And, surprisingly, that doesn't make me happy as an Olicity fan; just bitter that they're wasting our time on something they can't even be assed to write believably.

[quarks]

Gosh, Felicity is so insensitive. I mean first she told Oliver she has a work date with Ray and he responded by snarking that "she should do whatever she wanted"  Then after Felicity walked out on said work dinner to help Oliver, she got to hear him say yet again that he could never be with her because he had to be alone forever. I mean why is she even thinking of trying to move on with that kind of encouragement from Oliver.

 

 

To clarify, I don't think that Felicity was insensitive towards Oliver when she was kissing Ray. He had just made that little speech about needing to be alone forever and, well, yes, rebound. Plus since I am pretty sure it was 1 am or 2 am in the morning she had absolutely no reason to think that Oliver would be walking into that since the characters are not aware of the budget issues that force Arrow to have so many scenes on that same set. 

 

And I'm all for renaming the company Palmer Technologies - it makes complete sense, and also is a nice bit of continuity with what Isabel was correctly saying about CQ last season. So that's fine. 

 

I just did think that as as a friend - and by sticking around in the Arrow Cave and talking to him about her ex and autopsy results, she's still that - and as someone who hasn't hesitated to deliver hard news in the past, this is something she would have told Oliver in advance. And it's possible that she did, off screen, and that a statement explaining this was cut, but that one bit seemed off. And intended to focus on Oliver's man-pain.

[ban1o]

The same Katana from Beware the Bat?

Yep!

[Tangerine]

I don't think anyone said Felicity was being a bad friend because she isn't scolding Ray for changing the name. But I do think she should have told Oliver it was coming so he didn't have to see it on TV without knowing it was coming. Because even though he was a crappy CEO, Felicity knew how important it was to him to get his family's company back in ep 1 so not giving him a head's up was insensitive.

 

Not only that, but even though Oliver did he say he thought the company was better off with Ray, that was when he was being all defeatist and angsty because of what had happened previously in that episode. With both his parents gone, Thea and the company are really the only two things left that he has of his family, so I don't totally believe he's absolutely over losing QC.

[ban1o]

That is assuming that Malcolm did not send him to ensure a wedge is driven between Thea and Roy and that they do not get back together.

 .

God there better be a twist about that DJ guy that's somewhat interesting because right now I'm hoping that Oliver, Malcolm or even Roy kill the guy lol.

[apinknightmare]

Not only that, but even though Oliver did he say he thought the company was better off with Ray, that was when he was being all defeatist and angsty because of what had happened previously in that episode. With both his parents gone, Thea and the company are really the only two things left that he has of his family, so I don't totally believe he's absolutely over losing QC.

 

Oh, I don't think so either. Apparently this dude just has to hit rock bottom AGAIN to summon up the ability fight to get his shit together. Good lord.

[statsgirl]

I know this show is bad in terms of the money trail but there is no way Ray Palmer has enough money to buy QC outright or even take it over by leveraging because QC is that big.  The show has only said he's the CEO and CEO don't rename companies after themselves because it would mess with the branding.  Burger King just bought Tim Horton's but it's going to stay called Tim Horton's because the original name is worth a lot in terms of reputation.

 

It's just more bad writing for Oliver's manpain.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I enjoyed this episode a lot more than I thought I would. My expectations were rather low after seeing the names of the writers on that script cover, but on rewatch, I only hit the fastforward button once: The second time the DJ kid showed up. Just no. Thea, honey, go back to hobbit Roy.

 

C'mon, was anyone really surprised that Oliver walked in on THAT kiss? It was soooo ... tropey, LOL! But my heart did break a little for the boy. See, Oliver, this is what happens when you keep telling the woman you love, directly or obliquely, that you can't be together. I love that he gave the love fern a look just before he knocked the stuff off that table. Yeah, Oliver, blame the fern, why don't you.

 

I had no problems whatsoever with Felicity's actions tonight. But I mentioned as much in the spoiler discussion thread earlier after seeing the sneak peek. Palmer is definitely a rebound guy. She's hurting and she thinks she can assuage the pain by letting in this guy who is superficially similar to the man she loves. The guy she loves is emotionally unavailable. She gives him a bit of an opening, kinda tries to gauge his response by telling him about the work date. How does he respond? "Do what you want." Fine, she did. She wore a really expensive dress and a much more expensive necklace.

 

I love Diggle. The man is single-handedly trying to save his ship. Kidding! He sees his friends hurting and they're not talking because they're both incredibly stubborn. So he talks to them about each other. It almost works. I love that Felicity said "Oliver should be the one to say something." Someone on Twitter suggested Diggle lock them in the lair. I'm all for it!

 

Palmer Technologies, I laughed when Ray did the circling thing with his fingers, it was too cheesy. And again I have no problems with Felicity all smiley and clapping at the announcement. In my head, she told Oliver about it. He was upset she was with Palmer, not that what used to be his family's company is no longer called QC. I think it was established fairly well in the season premiere that running QC or the firm itself is not something he really is interested in (am wondering what he wants to do about his financial situation, though).

 

Amy Gumenick was perfectly over the top. I enjoyed her on "Supernatural" as Mama Winchester and I enjoyed her here as well.

 

And for once I actually cared about the Hong Kong flashback and did worry about Maseo. They're growing on me.

 

Bits and pieces:

Ray's exosuit made me think of Iron Man. Twitter folks said RoboCop. Hah!

The DJ kid is already annoying me. Seriously. He reminds me of that annoying poseur in "Mortal Instruments" (it was on HBO, don't judge).

Felicity as VP! Woohoo!

I loved the blue dress ... until I saw it didn't go all the way down to the floor. The length seemed off. But I guess if it ended at the knee then it would look closer to what Mama Smoak would wear.

Harlequin shoutout!

It felt right to have Lyla welcome Roy and Oliver with hugs. These people have become friends. I'm disappointed I didn't see that growth in their relationship, but it felt OK. I'm sure Felicity has dropped by a number of times since the Digglette to bring cute clothes. I'd love to see that on the show, but I really doubt it.

Last but not the least, always happy to see Quentin!

[Chaser]

I understand what Felicity is doing now. Some of the execution I'm not a fan of, but nothing that Felicity did in this episode makes me dislike her at all. Nor do I think she is being a terrible, insensitive person. My only issues with her characterization this episode: even though I get the rebranding, I would have liked some sadness/regret from Felicity. And the dinner scene to me was too intimate and out of no where. But I agree with @apinkmightmare, it feels like projection. 

 

I'm confused about where Ray and Felicity are supposed to go. He pulled away not her (which is weird). She just looked confused. I think she would have been okay with a one night rebound.

 

One thing that struck me about the Diggle/Felicity scene; she seemed a little angry. Like "Don't come to me and tell me this. He did this. Its not on me. He needs to speak up."

 

I am really thankful that they got all of my least favorite soap opera moments out of the way.

 

ETA: This is what jealous looks like.

Edited November 20, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[catrox14]

Geez. Is anyone ever going to tell poor Quentin his baby girl is dead? :(

[apinknightmare]

I know this show is bad in terms of the money trail but there is no way Ray Palmer has enough money to buy QC outright or even take it over by leveraging because QC is that big.  The show has only said he's the CEO and CEO don't rename companies after themselves because it would mess with the branding.  Burger King just bought Tim Horton's but it's going to stay called Tim Horton's because the original name is worth a lot in terms of reputation.

 

It's just more bad writing for Oliver's manpain.

 

QC's name is shit though. It makes sense for the company to be renamed, and Ray obviously has a track record of success, so why wouldn't the board vote to change it to something recognizable and synonymous with success?

[Guest]

I think she's just projecting. He's Oliver without the baggage, and he's right there and is ready to give her the relationship that Oliver won't. I don't think she necessarily thinks Ray's great. She thinks Oliver's great and she sees a lot of Oliver in Ray, so...projection city.

 

Hmm, yeah, I guess I can buy that. Especially with the whole 'I have a type' thing. I just hope she has a moment of clarity where she realizes that though. Like 'oh shit I don't really feel anything for Ray at all.' 

 

 

I dunno I mean other than Laurel becoming Black Canary there is not a whole lot more of comic endgame to follow in the new 52.  Oliver and Dinah are not together in the new 52 they dated and broke up with the marriage having now been retconned to never happening (she is married to Kurt Lance who I now wonder if Arrow will introduce with a slightly different name if the show lasts enough seasons?).  If anything the comics are mirroring the show now with Diggle and Felicity now existing and being part of team Green Arrow.  Thea does not really exist although Oliver does have a different ninja trained sister sidekick.  So what more is there really to do except for Roy's eventual drug problem and split from the team (I would be SHOCKED if this did happen eventually on the show.)  The show really does have a pretty blank slate to write including who Oliver winds up with compared to what Smallville had to deal with to miror comic continuity.

 

Well, fans of the GA/BC pairing never cite the latest comic as canon, do they? It's always going back to moments when they were together, even though they got married and divorced and whatever. That's why that argument always makes me laugh because what canon are people specifying exactly? There's years' worth.

 

Still, I do think Arrow s1 started with Laurel and Oliver very much intended as endgame but it was derailed because they had no chemistry and a toxic backstory and Oliver's chemistry with Felicity was amazing. But as I said, with the EP's so set on making Laurel BC when there was already a much better one in her place, I'm not confident that they won't do the same with L/O, even though Olicity is so much better. SA said to trust the writers but I don't. Not right now anyway.

 

 

The only thing it solidified for me is that Ray is no real threat to Olicity at all. And, surprisingly, that doesn't make me happy as an Olicity fan; just bitter that they're wasting our time on something they can't even be assed to write believably.

 

I think that's partly why I'm so annoyed because the EP's said how much chemistry EBR and BR had and how they're giving Felicity a real 'choice' other than Oliver and I don't see it. Ray is not worthy of Felicity. He's creepy and manipulative and this is just frustrating to watch. I was ok with the prospect of Ray (or Daniel when we first heard about a potential love interest) but watching him and Felicity is just not enjoyable to me right now. It's painful and awkward because I'm sitting here thinking 'Girl, you're better off alone, run as fast as you can!' So yeah, I'm totally bitter too.

[Xenith22]

Geez. Is anyone ever going to tell poor Quentin his baby girl is dead? :(

Becareful what you ask for...there is still always the possibility of his heart being unable to take it and him dropping dead to prove that Laurel was right about not telling him.

[statsgirl]

Geez. Is anyone ever going to tell poor Quentin his baby girl is dead? :(

Well Oliver is letting Laurel call the shots on that one.

 

 

One thing that struck me about the Diggle/Felicity scene; she seemed a little angry. Like "Don't come to me and tell me this. He did this. Its not on me. He needs to speak up."

That's exactly what Diggle told Felicity in The Undertaking when she went to his apartment to get Diggle back with with Oliver.

[Orion]

Photo recap Cupid http://prattschris.tumblr.com/post/103097435135

 

 

Same Diggle, same.

[Guest]

I keep forgetting to mention the flashbacks but I'm actually really liking Maseo. I've not really connected much to HK yet but Maseo is great which means he's probably going to die at some point. :(

[pivot]

After watching this episode, I think they missed the boat in casting Amy as Laurel. She has an impish quality and she is believable in kicking ass that would fit BC perfectly. She reminded me of the actress that plays Sara actually.

I actually enjoyed this episode immensely. I didn't have to fast-forward any of the scenes, though I was tempted by the asshat DJ scenes and we actually had character moments in the show. Plus, we got to spend more time with the core group + Roy. I really think my largest problem with the show right now is that the cast is too big and there are too many storylines and we don't get enough Core Arrow time. I think tonight showed that some of those characters and storylines are unnecessary to the show. The show was more focused and reminded me of season 1 arrow. I also loved the return to the Villain of the Week storyline.

As for the Ray/Felicity nonsense, I thought it ended up working fine. It's clear that Ray is just a temporary obstacle for Olicity and Ray is a likable enough character. I will of course take all of it back if the writers are purposely trying to destroy Felicity's character so they can return to the comic OTP.

[calliope1975]

Oh, I don't think so either. Apparently this dude just has to hit rock bottom AGAIN to summon up the ability fight to get his shit together. Good lord.

 

And that sucks. Find a new story, professional writers who are paid money to write this while fanfiction writers are better and actually keep everyone in character. 

 

Ahem. So, it wasn't as bad as I was predicting, which still isn't saying much as my expectations were rock bottom. I'm not seeing this amazing chemistry between Ray and Felicity, but Oliver's an idiot and she is under no obligation to wait around for his dumb ass. However, BR has crazy eyes, and it takes me out of the scene every time. I think it's just BR's thing, but damn - dial the crazy back, Ray. I didn't feel like, based on what we've been shown so far, that Felicity would have been beaming at Ray during his presentation and praising his light at the dinner. That seemed completely out of character to me. It does feel like Felicity is being isolated from Team Arrow, and I am irritated by that. 

 

EBR looking banging in that dress (a Victoria Beckham that runs around $2500,) and the lipstick she had on with the purple dress was on point. I need it. I follow the TV show fashion blogs, but can anyone identify that lipstick shade?

 

I liked AG as Cupid and I hope to see a crazy off between her and Harley Quinn at some point.

 

DJ guy sucks and can leave at any point. He has me actively rooting for Roy which is weird and uncomfortable.

 

Katana is awesome, and I like Maseo and their family unit. Don't kill them off or make her sleep with Oliver, Show! 

 

Nick Tarabay (this bitch) would have been a delicious Ra's al Ghul. I hated him on Spartacus (in a good way) and his short scene at the end makes me want more of him. That's not how I felt when I saw Ra's earlier this season. 

 

So, overall, eh? Meh? I don't know. I didn't hate it. I didn't love it. But I did watch it.

[BkWurm1]

I didn’t hate the episode.  There were times I was enjoying it, but overall, it left me feeling depressed.  

First off, the Thea/DJ storyline was terrible. He’s an ass and it makes no sense that Thea wouldn’t have hired a DJ to play what she wanted so when he wasn’t, it makes no sense for her to just fire him without yelling at him to do it right…unless stupid floppy hair boy paid him to suck.  Just a dumb scenario altogether.  Plus he was an a punk and not cute and not charming.  Just no, not Laurel no, but OMG this guy is boring and weird and doesn’t make sense…ok, maybe a little Laurel no.  ;)

Cupid was the stereotypical obsessed psycho fan.  I enjoyed getting to see Quentin out and about doing his job (and looking very healthy), so that was good.  She was mostly one note, but most of the villains on Arrow are and at least she stood out.  Actually, her support cast was pretty good, her poor dead IT guy and her ex physiatrist were both good actors and did a lot with the very little they were given.  I am kind of hoping Oliver stops by for some sessions.

Actually, wouldn’t that be kind of awesome?  Instead of stoic looks and grunts to actually get beneath the hood even if it’s just the tiniest bit?  Yeah, pipe dreams.

Roy was consistent tonight and I like the continued vibe between Oliver and Roy; he’s actually trying to look after Roy now.  Diggle was soooooo much better tonight.  After last week I was more than a little worried.  I would have liked more between Diggle and Felicity but I’m ok with what was shown.  Diggle is in a tough place with Oliver being so pigheaded.  I can understand why he’d appeal to Felicity even though there wasn’t really anything he could do. 

That leaves the Ray/Felicity stuff and I’ll be back in another post to address them.

[JenMcSnark]

I haven't read the whole thread and don't want to be influenced so I'm just going to post.

 

I actually liked the episode and I was fully prepared not to.  The only thing I absolutely hated was the salmon ladder bullshit.  That was stupid as fuck and poorly acted by Emily in my opinion.  I also didn't really care for the dress-giving scene and that was partially because of the 100 other women line and partially because of Felicity reacting so crazy to a fairly ordinary dress.

 

But.  I don't really have a problem with Ray Palmer.  I think this show is falling into the problem of not showing us shit that has happened.  Obviously Ray and Felicity have been working together for two months now and they feel pretty comfortable together.  They have shown that he really appreciates her and that she feels comfortable talking to him and opening up to him.  

 

I think the stupid, hateful salmon ladder scene was to establish that Felicity finds him sexually attractive, which I get.  BR is all kinds of pretty (except those crazy eyes!).  

 

So upon hearing, yet afuckinggain, Oliver state unequivocally that he cannot and will not be with anyone, I would be most sincerely disappointed if she didn't explore whatever small attraction she might be feeling to whomever that is.

 

 It bothers me more that this is the second boss in a row she supposedly has a thing for, but I'm just chalking that up to the small Arrowverse. It's not like she has a lot of choices.  Unless they put her with Roy.  And that would be pretty heinous on both their parts.  

 

And frankly it sickens me that there is a fair amount of slut-shaming going around online regarding what was a pretty innocuous kiss after a fairly emotional evening for Felicity.  

 

I need to watch again and I'll probably have more to say about Cupid, Thea, etc. 

[NumberCruncher]

I both loved and hated this episode.  Considering the number of lackluster episodes this season, I'm happy this one was at least successful in doing that for me.

 

Things I loved:

 

1.  I totally dug Cupid throughout the whole episode and I thought Amy Gumenick did a fantastic job bringing the crazy.  I really hope we see more of her in the future.

 

2.  The subtlety/nuance of Stephen Amell's acting continues to get better and better.  He knows how to play pensiveness and jealousy without it being OTT.  I appreciate it even more because it only made Brandon Routh's OTT acting in this episode even more obvious (but more on that later).

 

3.  Felicity as VP.  So glad she's finally in a position to match her intelligence and education.

 

4.  Superficial observation...EBR is just stunning.  As much as I hated her whole dinner speech, I was distracted by how utterly beautiful she looked as she was giving it.

 

5.  Team Arrow interaction --especially Felicity and Diggle--even if it was far from perfect.

 

6.  We finally got a much-needed break from the Laurel/Sara storyline.

 

Things I hated:

 

1.  Holy OOC moments, Batman!  Seriously, who are these pod people?  Surprisingly Oliver was in character but he was the only one.  There's absolutely no way that Felicity would be okay with Ray renaming Oliver's company like that.   Diggle wasn't as much OOC as he has been at other times this season, but the guilt trip was a bit much.

 

2.  As a well-known hater of Brandon Routh's acting technique, I thought he had finally convinced me this season that he could handle this role.  That is, until this episode.  How is it possible that he cannot find a happy medium between being completely boring and way too OTT?  Between the crazy bug eyes and erratic line delivery I wanted Felicity to ask him if he forgot to take his Ritalin that morning.  Case in point:

 

3.  Okay I take it back--Oliver wasn't the only one in character this episode.  Ray was his usual creepy self.  I won't rehash what everyone else has already said but I'm still scratching my head as to WTF Felicity is doing anywhere near this man.

 

4.  Thea's new DJ boytoy is a total douche for more reasons than I can count.

 

5.  Too little Quentin usage but that's always a complaint.

Edited November 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[steelyis]

Felicity's actions in this episode make a lot of sense to me. Taking what we learned about Felicity's past in The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak, we know Felicity does not play around when she decides to make a change. After she thought her boyfriend killed himself she went from hacker Goth chick to a glasses wearing unassuming IT girl. It's no surprise she wanted to make another change after the one-two punch of Oliver shoving his head up his ass and then the knock out blow of Sara dying. I think until those events Felicity had dedicated her life to Oliver and his cause and thought it was worth sacrificing and dying for, but when Sara died it made her reevaluate just like when her boyfriend died.

 

I just hope she doesn't drift too far away from Team Arrow while she tries to balance her life as a VP (yay, Felicity!) and her life fighting crime, because that's all I really care about. Not Olicity or Fray, I just want the team to stay intact.

 

Anyway, is it just me, or did Oliver sound a lot like Batman when he was questioning the psychologist?

 

I didn't care much for Thea's subplot; I rather watch her train with Malcolm some more.

 

And could Diggle be more of an Olicity shipper? Seriously, Digg, write some hurt/comfort fanfic, that always makes me feel better.

 

I like Cupid. She was more interesting and entertaining than I though she'd be.

 

I feel as though I'd be remiss if I didn't mention EBR was rocking that blue number. And say what you want about Ray, but he was right about how amazing Felicity looks in that dress. I still think she was even more ridiculously hot in the black dress she wore on The Flash, though.

 

This show needs more Quentin, if for no other reason than I like it when him and the Arrow do their Batman/Commissioner Gordon thing. I'm still waiting for them to have a rooftop meeting at some point.

 

Geez. Is anyone ever going to tell poor Quentin his baby girl is dead? :(

 

No.

Edited November 20, 2014 by steelyis

[Password]

I won't lie last night when I watched the Salmon ladder sneak peak my reaction was somewhat like



But now having seen the scene in its entirety I'm far more OK with it. Felicity didn't seem that OOC but Ray...sigh. He just...but anyway. Felicity reacting the way she did amused me.

I haven't finished yet, the look Ray bestowed on her at his speech was somewhat...



But again, I haven't finished.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Limbo

[pivot]

I have to wonder if we are going to find out that Ray assuming Oliver's life (the ladder, CEO of QC, chasing Felicity, etc.) is because he knows Oliver is the Arrow and is trying to recruit Felicity to help him with his Atom vigilante quest?

And steelyis, I was with you until you said the episode needed more Quentin. I have never understood the affection for Mumbles and would be happy to see him reunite with his ex-wife in Starling City never to be seen again on Arrow.

[ban1o]

I didn't mind felicity's actions at all. Actually I was kind of put off that Diggle was trying to guilt trip her to run back to Oliver when he was the one who "ended" it

Edited November 20, 2014 by ban1o

[foreverevolving]

 

ETA: this is from the recap BTW.

Edited November 20, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Chaser]

I was really disappointed that the Diggle and Felicity scene was all about how Oliver is dealing their situation. I wish Diggle had focused on Felicity. I wanted him to congratulate her and maybe ask how she is dealing with everything. Get her side.

[Guest]

 

HAHAHA. I needed that laugh. I needed it so badly. 

[Carrie Ann]

I just don't understand how Felicity went from disliking Ray and likening him to a stalker, to being perturbed about him turning up at her house while she's still in her PJ's, to suddenly 'Ray is wonderful and inspiring' and all flirty flirt. It makes no sense. I haven't seen that dynamic earned. It's a complete joke.

 

And I really didn't like Felicity tonight which makes me sad because she's one of my favorite characters. And it's not her choosing to move on because I think any sane woman would try to move on if she'd just heard the man she loves say he has to be alone. But it's the way it's happening. Ray basically threw a load of money at her and she fell for it, hook and line. It was gross and not what I expect from Felicity at all.

 

This episode wasn't just angsty it was painful uncomfortable cringe-worthy angst and that is just not watchable or enjoyable.

 

I actually cringed at her behavior. Accepting a date because of a dress is one thing (I can hand wave that she's into fashion, whatever) but having no reaction to the renaming of QC and then her 'Ray is inspiring' speech made me like WTF is happening.

 

The thing is, it's really not insensitive of Felicity to move on or at least try to after Oliver said he couldn't be with her. And he hasn't just said it once, he's said it twice now. And at the start when she approached Oliver and asked for the night off, it seemed like she was giving him an opening to say something and he didn't. He told her to do whatever she wanted. So I really don't blame Felicity for trying to move on, it's just who she's moving on with. Ray is my problem here and the way Felicity acts around Ray is my problem too. This was not the Felicity I know and love and yeah, I hate to say it but she did look kind of shallow. I don't think she is but that is how it looks and I think the EP's/writers really need to be careful. They're writing for plot here at the sacrifice of character.

 

I don't know about this episode. I agree that Felicity seemed off. The only time she seemed herself was when she was in The Foundry (which is probably the point of the season, but still). I don't understand why she didn't have a reaction to Palmer renaming the company. I get that Oliver gave up on the company, but I would have liked to see her sad about it or something. I kinda felt she was trying to push Oliver by mentioning the date, maybe testing the waters. And Oliver totally drowned in those waters with the speech to Cupid. Felicity fell victim to plotting. Plan and simple.

 

I don't mind that Ray rebranded Queen Consolidated into Palmer Technologies. It makes sense and is arguably the first sensible thing anyone has done for QC in several episodes.  I do mind that Felicity apparently didn't bother to give Oliver a heads up about this, and looked thrilled, since both of these imply a major and still ongoing level of anger at Oliver that yes, was around in episode two, but completely not there in episodes five and six - not incidentally, the last two episodes, where they've regained a decent working relationship and Oliver is right up in her personal space again. It felt really off.

 

Just gonna quote a bunch of you expressing my reservations about this episode. I found it actually painful to watch, and only some of that was the good kind of pain. I was dearly hoping that that Salmon Ladder/Dress scene was going to be the only annoying bit of the episode, but I was wrong. Felicity for me...was all wrong this episode.

 

To start: that "I have a type" line was cute and EBR delivered it well, but this is the FIRST hint we've had that she was attracted to Ray. The rest of that scene, I can't even address, so I thank the rest of you for dealing with it.

 

Next: Probably my least favorite moment was her beaming at the Palmer Technologies reveal. I just...no. Even if she warned Oliver in advance and we didn't see it, like so many other important scenes this season, it still doesn't mean she wouldn't feel a twinge of sadness about it. I would have liked just a tiny little slip of that smile. Just any indication that she was conflicted.

 

And then: the scene where she tells Oliver she needs the night off. I see many of you reading that as baiting Oliver, trying to get him to respond, and I wish I'd seen it that way. It's an issue of nuance, and I just don't think EBR sold it correctly, if that was the intent. To me, it seemed like sort of careless or intentionally goading Oliver, and...that's not a good look.

 

AND THEN: the "Oh, RAY, well, he is basically a saint and you should give him your land for free" date speech came out of absolutely nowhere. I mean, all we've seen of him being charitable is that he wanted to donate the excess power from QC back to the city grid. Which is fine, lovely, but not like stop-the-presses amazing. I like y'all's interpretation that she's just projecting her Oliver feelings onto Ray, but to me that wasn't obvious enough, so it sort of came across like starry eyed girl, and that in combo with the dress and the necklace situation...it all just gave me the shivers.

 

I did appreciate that she put Diggle back in his place w/r/t Oliver, though again, that might have been the time to show her feeling a little conflicted about the rebrand, and instead she came off sort of cold to Dig, and cold about Oliver, and at the end of the scene I just felt sad. Man, remember when they were all friends?

 

And finally, to wrap up this insanely long comment: I liked EBR's face acting in the comms scene, but that scene just had NO relation to any of her reactions or behavior in the rest of the episode. I see all of your awesome interpretations, and I'll probably come up with some of my own, but my initial take is that it just didn't compute, and I ended up feeling like I don't understand what's going on with Felicity. And that's tough, because she's my girl.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[ban1o]

I was really disappointed that the Diggle and Felicity scene was all about how Oliver is dealing their situation. I wish Diggle had focused on Felicity. I wanted him to congratulate her and maybe ask how she is dealing with everything. Get her side.

Yeah exactly. It was all about how Oliver was being distracted and stuff and how Oliver didn't want her with Ray and nothing about her or how she was feeling. It kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Tbh the only "team arrow "interaction I liked in this episode, although brief was Oliver/Roy

Edited November 20, 2014 by ban1o

[JenMcSnark]

I have to wonder if we are going to find out that Ray assuming Oliver's life (the ladder, CEO of QC, chasing Felicity, etc.) is because he knows Oliver is the Arrow and is trying to recruit Felicity to help him with his Atom vigilante quest?

And steelyis, I was with you until you said the episode needed more Quentin. I have never understood the affection for Mumbles and would be happy to see him reunite with his ex-wife in Starling City never to be seen again on Arrow.

I have speculated that Ray isn't really stalking Felicity at all, but rather he is stalking Oliver.  I haven't been able to fully articulate it because it makes the hiring of Felicity actually worse.  He's not stalking her for her, but because he's using her.  But the way you put it isn't quite as ugly if he just wants her help or feels he needs her to succeed.  That could very well be the reason.  

 

Ditto about Quentin.  Another now very misused component of what was successful in S1.

[SpectreH]

I would have been worried if the show had laid any type of foundation for Ray and Felicity as a romantic pairing, but they couldn't even be bothered. Until tonight, had there been any indication that Felicity was even attracted to Ray? BR obviously is attractive and it's not difficult to see why Felicity would be attracted to him, but treating it as an established fact in this episode with no buildup made it seem so forced and plot driven. The only thing it solidified for me is that Ray is no real threat to Olicity at all. And, surprisingly, that doesn't make me happy as an Olicity fan; just bitter that they're wasting our time on something they can't even be assed to write believably.

 

Brandon Routh is playing the exact same type of creeper that he played in Season 3 of Chuck, and just like in Chuck, the writers are making the lead female character "fall" for his dubious charms.  It's just as annoying this time around.  I literally cringed during their kiss.

[Moya the Leviathan]

How did we do on misogynistic bingo? Felicity gets sexually harassed by boss, Thea the boss gets sexually harassed by contractor, Cupid leads tech guy on with promise of sexual favors, wife of mining CEO is an ornament and so is Lyla. Not quite Bingo, since Laurel doesn't get Oliver showing up on her doorstep for consolation/hate sex. But damn close.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's good to know that Ollie has some sexual boundaries other than blood relatives. It strains credibility that Cupid can last more than 5 seconds in a fist fight with him, but whatevs.

 

I love me some Felicity, but she has now had some level of romance with Green Arrow, Flash and now future Atom. Arsenal's probably, "When's my hook-up?"

[wonderwall]

And finally, to wrap up this insanely long comment: I liked EBR's face acting in the comms scene, but that scene just had NO relation to any of her reactions or behavior in the rest of the episode. I see all of your awesome interpretations, and I'll probably come up with some of my own, but my initial take is that it just didn't compute, and I ended up feeling like I don't understand what's going on with Felicity. And that's tough, because she's my girl.

I think I sort of get Felicity's reaction in the comms scene. This was the first time she heard Oliver say 'never' for a lack of a better word. Maybe she had some hope before, but her disappointment/sadness came from possibly now knowing she it will never happen? IDK That's how I read the scene. 

 

And then she went to Ray as a rebound because of that initial heartbreak from the comms. Before that I just felt like Felicity saw Ray as a platonic partner. Nothing more, really. Regardless, her relationship with Ray has really come out of nowhere. It's just jarring to see. 

[Chaser]

I'm really amused about how awkward the kiss was between Ray and Felicity. It was almost like Oliver and Laurel S1 finale awkward but for the opposite reason. Oliver and Laurel was all "and????" just no passion at all and Ray and Felicity went from half a second of eye contact…HE IS EATING HER FACE 

Edited November 20, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Guest]

I liked EBR's face acting in the comms scene, but that scene just had NO relation to any of her reactions or behavior in the rest of the episode. I see all of your awesome interpretations, and I'll probably come up with some of my own, but my initial take is that it just didn't compute, and I ended up feeling like I don't understand what's going on with Felicity. And that's tough, because she's my girl.

 

Yeah, I hate to say it but this episode actually made me question her feelings for Oliver, for the first time. I hate that because I've never doubted that Felicity is in love with Oliver but it pains me that she was so into Ray, so quickly. The whole thing came out of nowhere. Her reaction on the comms is more in keeping with how I imagined she'd react to Oliver's 'rejection' of being with her but aside from that it's like she doesn't care at all. I've not really seen any longing from her tbh. And personally, if I have to sit through a boring love triangle with a third party love interest, I need to see that there is still love there with the main intended pairing and I'm only getting that from Oliver right now. It's pretty sad. I feel I should clarify that I don't ever expect to see Felicity pining all the time and 'woe is me!' but just a slip of that mask now and again would go some way.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Guest

[Orion]

It's good to know that Ollie has some sexual boundaries other than blood relatives. It strains credibility that Cupid can last more than 5 seconds in a fist fight with him, but whatevs.

 

They did kinda address where Carrie got her skills from, Diggle mentions that she was SCPD and a member of the SWAT team before being kicked off for stalking her partner. So it made sense that she would have some skills in a fight. The bow and arrow skills... she went to the same archery school as Roy?

[thuganomics85]

I just assumed that Ollie was also holding back during fights.  I got the sense he really didn't want to hurt Carrie/Cupid.  I think if he gave it his normal percent, he probably could have downed her more quickly.

 

I understand why Ray changed Queen Consolidated's name and everything, but, yeah, if Felicity knew it was happening and didn't inform Ollie that was coming down the pipeline, that's just strangely... out of character for her.  Then again, that's nothing new with this season.

[twoods]

I don't mind Ray. He's an awkward, geeky billionaire. Plus, I have a total fangirl crush on Brandon after I saw him in a cute Hallmark movie. I'm pretty easy to please.

Enough with Oliver's man pain. He ended things, then rehashed it would never happen. Felicity is trying to move on, so let her. Why should she care about Oliver's feelings if he's not caring about hers. I'm glad she put Diggle in her place.

Wow, Austin is such a douchy character. They should have made him endearing (and not greasy) like he was on "Switched at Birth." Roy is so much better.

[Actionmage]

How did we do on misogynistic bingo? Felicity gets sexually harassed by boss, Thea the boss gets sexually harassed by contractor,

 

If Felicity did not want to wear the dress, wear the necklace or be kissed, she has been shown to be blunt and vocal about telling folks to step off.  As for Thea, I am patiently waiting for her to spring a surprise at the idiot the next time he tries something like that.  She doesn't need anyone else to take of this punk.

 

Cupid leads tech guy on with promise of sexual favors,

Carrie also murdered him straight up.

  

wife of mining CEO is an ornament and so is Lyla.

 

 

Yep, that's pretty misogynistic--dismissing a woman only characterized as boring to one guy and another woman shown to be a tough, resourceful, complex woman who also happens to be a veteran soldier and now black ops agent. Lyla is so ornamental.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Lisin
fixed quote formatting

[Jediknight]

I just assumed that Ollie was also holding back during fights.  I got the sense he really didn't want to hurt Carrie/Cupid.  I think if he gave it his normal percent, he probably could have downed her more quickly.

Yeah that's how I read it.  He's stronger than her, and has more training so he held back.  He also sees her as someone who is seriously troubled so he wants her to get help, and maybe eventually get better.

[steelyis]

I have to wonder if we are going to find out that Ray assuming Oliver's life (the ladder, CEO of QC, chasing Felicity, etc.) is because he knows Oliver is the Arrow and is trying to recruit Felicity to help him with his Atom vigilante quest?

And steelyis, I was with you until you said the episode needed more Quentin. I have never understood the affection for Mumbles and would be happy to see him reunite with his ex-wife in Starling City never to be seen again on Arrow.

 

I was tossing around the idea Ray's been on to Team Arrow from the start and recruited Felicity to work for him to find out if the Arrow is more than a spree killing vigilante who likes to blow up factories. Then after meeting and getting to know Felicity Ray decided she wouldn't work with somebody evil, but still thinks becoming the Atom is a good idea even if he doesn't plan to use the suit to take down the Arrow anymore. It kind of fits with his regretting kissing Felicity if he's been investigating her and after the kiss feels he's gotten too close.

 

Aw, man, I love Quentin!

[SleepDeprived]

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this episode. I'm leaning towards thinking it was actually good? I mean, I was pretty entertained and, other than the DJ (what even is the point of this dude?), there wasn't anything that really irked me too much. But it definitely was a lot better than a lot of the other episodes we've had this season. And I laughed at the use of a Cupid arrowhead title card instead of the usual spade.

 

Cupid was great. I loved her. This is the kind of villain that I like watching--batshit insane but with a purpose. All those spade arrows around that shrine of crazy, though. Has Cupid been going around the city and collecting Oliver's arrows? Now, that's dedication! And, hah! I called that Sherwood Florist would be connected to her. I wonder if Felicity bought Fern from Carrie Cutter? So, now, she's part of the Suicide Squad. At least that kinda guarantees that we'll be seeing her again sometime in the future. I can't wait to see her interacting with Deadshot.

 

Gods, that DJ guy was annoying. Why is he here? Is he going to be someone important in the future? Is that why we didn't even find out what his name is? Thea should've smacked him when he went in for that unsolicited kiss. What a douche. If he will be coming back, I hope he learns to shower and use a comb. Greasy, unkempt hair is supposed to be trademarked only for the flashback wigs.

 

I still have my issues with how the writers had Ray "woo" Felicity but it was really nice to see her being recognized for how amazing she is. And I know it's been said but I will join the chorus of Ray Palmer has crazy eyes. Seriously. Does he have a condition or is he taking pills or something? Look, I consume more than the recommended cups of coffee a day, quite regularly, and, sometimes, have the tendency to talk really fast but I have never been as manic as he comes off, especially in the eyes. Is this a BR thing? Also, correct me if I'm wrong but did we actually see him doing the salmon ladder? I saw him doing a half pull-up and heard the clanging but I didn't see the actual salmon laddering. I wonder if BR can actually do the thing. Not judging, just curious. And regarding the dwarf star that he was after plus the hologram, I wonder if he got the designs and specifics of the A.T.O.M. exosuit from the hard drive that Felicity fixed from QC's Applied Sciences dossier. And I wonder if Ray will end up building some of those other ominous-looking O.M.A.C. designs.

 

Katana was awesome in the flashbacks. Captain Boomerang was a lot more sinister and had more presence than Ra's al Ghul. And Roy continues to surprise me with how much I'm enjoying him this season.

 

Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle. I watch this show because of them. They are what makes me keep watching Arrow, in spite of all my misgivings about certain events/developments/characters. And I was thrilled that they had more screentime with all the variations of pairings being present--Oliver/Diggle, Felicity/Diggle, Oliver/Felicity. There was a lot going on there that I need to digest for a bit, I think. The tropes and anvils, though. It was painfully good and bad, at the same time. Do these writers read fanfic? I swear a lot of what happened with the trio has happened so many times (and done better) in fanfiction.

[AudienceofOne]

OMG, that was TERRIBLE. I don't even know where to start so I'll pick the one big thing - that Brandon Routh is essentially reprising his role in Chuck. All we need is Felicity admitting her name is Lisa to complete it.

 

The Cupid plotline felt like it wandered in from a Smallville first draft. I could even imagine Tom Welling woodenly delivering the lines while blank-facedly passively-aggressively disapproving of Chloe's new romantic interest.

 

Honestly, what have they done to my show Ma?

[CarBe]

I LOVED this episode. Any episode with a good amount of Felcity and no Laurel is a win.

Like someone else pointed out above, Ray is Oliver 2.0 to Felicty - equally rich, equally handsome, (almost) equally looks-good-without-his-shirt, equally heroic (Ray is "interested in making the world a better place"), but, unlike Oliver 1.0, is a fellow awkward genius, is good at business, and, probably most important, isn't shy about showing an obvious interest in and appreciation for Felicity. He's also not PTSD and not a manwhore hooking up with psychos right in her face (Oliver's treatment of Felicity last year really annoyed me. He has to do a lot better for me to feel he deserves to be with her.)

How can she resist when Ray is a (seemingly) better version of Oliver?

And YET, Ray pulled away from that kiss when he was obviously very into it - and went to go play with his ATOM suit. So, I am afraid Felicity is doomed to fall for unavailable rich, handsome, hero-types that put making the world a better place a priority over having a life with her.

Edited November 20, 2014 by CarBe

[paigow]

Agree with others that DJ Jazzy Douche is working for Malcolm. Unless Felicity is making minimum wage as VP, why would she be impressed by a dress? No wonder the mine owner sold, he saw Felicity (the VP) was wearing a $10M necklace and thought "if Palmer pays his employees that much...."