S03.E07: Draw Back Your Bow

[KenyaJ]

I agree. I don't think it really matters exactly what it took for her to agree to go to the dinner though, whether it was tech or a dress, it was still a motivating factor. Granted, the tech would've come off as more of a direct bribe, since she wouldn't have had to go to a restaurant to use it. It does make more sense for her to think, 'oooh, pretty dress I wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to wear,' so oddly I think the dress being the motivating factor makes her decision seem less...maybe shallow isn't the right word, but less like she's able to actually be bribed, I guess.

 

But as VP, he has every reason to invite her to a business dinner, so offering the dress and necklace were intended to be romantic beats, but after he pulled away from the kiss he said that he had intended the evening to be platonic. If he'd intended that, then why did he ply her with fashion and jewelry? Kind of makes it seem like he purposely led her on, but I don't think that's what we're supposed to get from it. Messy.

 

I disagree about the tech vs. dress, obviously, but ITA with you that using fashion and jewelry to woo her to a platonic dinner was messy and pointless. Whether it was tech, a dress, a car, or paying off her student loans, I can't fathom why the writers felt it necessary at all to dangle a carrot to get her to go with Ray. I suppose they thought a bribe would just be amusing, but this is not my amused face. And it made me go from being ambivalent but accepting of Raylicity to being squicked out by it. But, at this point, I think I've given it more thought than they ever did, so I'm going to save my sanity and just stop.

[statsgirl]

I thought the end shot of Oliver looking at Matseu and his family was an anvil to how he felt left out, and that's why he took Roy with him to Diggle's house so the whole Team minus Felicity (that still burns me) can have happy times.

EBR looking banging in that dress (a Victoria Beckham that runs around $2500,) and the lipstick she had on with the purple dress was on point. I need it. I follow the TV show fashion blogs, but can anyone identify that lipstick shade?

 

I liked AG as Cupid and I hope to see a crazy off between her and Harley Quinn at some point.

I'm glad they're setting up Cupid etc for a possible Suicide Squad spin-off.  Of all the villains this season, I've liked her the most.

 

As paigow said, Felicity's salary as a VP should be paying her enough to buy a dress that costs that much on her own if she really wants one, or at least enough not to be completely bowled over by something that costs $2,500.  Is Beckham couture? I was thinking something like Versace.

 

I have to wonder if we are going to find out that Ray assuming Oliver's life (the ladder, CEO of QC, chasing Felicity, etc.) is because he knows Oliver is the Arrow and is trying to recruit Felicity to help him with his Atom vigilante quest?

That would really suck for Felicity, if Ray only hired her because he's stalking Oliver.  Poor girl can't get anyone to love her for herself: Cooper is a nutcase; Barry prefers Iris; Oliver won't get out of his manpain; and Ray only wants her because Oliver does?  It's bad enough that he walked away from her after kissing her and she's all what?  why don't you come back and keep kissing?  

 

Poor Felicity, with her brains and looks and she can't get a guy who is interested in her for her sake. I feel the same way I felt when Christie Brinkley's husband cheated on her -- if she can't keep a guy, what chance do those of us who are mere mortals have?

 

On the plus side for Ray, if he meant to keep it platonic because he's only using her, at least he's not out to hurt her too much.

 

I was really disappointed that the Diggle and Felicity scene was all about how Oliver is dealing their situation. I wish Diggle had focused on Felicity. I wanted him to congratulate her and maybe ask how she is dealing with everything. Get her side.

I would have liked that, for just one person to be there for Felicity for Felicity's sake.

 

With Oliver telling her "do what you want" and Ray walking away from the kissing leaving her alone working while her friends are with each other, I really felt this episode was punishing her for wanting to have a life.

 

I ended up feeling like I don't understand what's going on with Felicity. And that's tough, because she's my girl.

This show twists everyone for the sake of Oliver's manpain (it's like Longmire like that) but in my case, I like Felicity more than I like Oliver  and I really don't like what Mericle and Schwartz do to her.

 

Unless Felicity is making minimum wage as VP, why would she be impressed by a dress? No wonder the mine owner sold, he saw Felicity (the VP) was wearing a $10M necklace and thought "if Palmer pays his employees that much...."

Putting a $10 million necklace on her made no sense other than an over the top 'Don't you just love Ray?' gesture.  Did he want the mine owner to think that he was so rich he could throw money around like that?  Or that he was sleeping with his VP and that's why she was covered in ice?

 

Spending $3 million to buy a tech company to get Felicity to work for him I can understand (unless he only wants her because she's Oliver's) because he can make money like that.  Dressing Felicity so completely over the top doesn't make any sense to me from a business standpoint.

Edited November 20, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

I think another important point is that Oliver decided NOT to be alone in response to pain. Since "I must always be alone" has been his mantra this season, that in and of itself is a huge learning moment in his quest to become a real boy.

 

If Oliver and Roy had a scene like Riggins and Saracen did in season 2 of Friday Night Lights, and blew off all their responsibilities to just go and get drunk and talk nonsense about how crap girls are, I might actually watch the episode. 

[Password]

For some reason I feel quite "meh" about this episode. I liked it overall to be fair, I think the only point of contention was that wonderful speech Felicity gave about Ray. That left me like waaaaaah? But honestly I totally believed Felicity (kudos to EBR) and I thought it was all wonderful. I guess substitute Ray with Oliver and you've got a winner but anyhow.

I find I really like seeing Felicity in this "adult" environment. I've always wanted to know what she's like on dates and in relationships so if anything, I think/hope i'll really enjoy it. When Ray said she's VP I was also like eh? With what qualifications? But never mind, home girl is getting LOOOOTS of recognition and for that Mr. Palmer, respect. I actually love that she's being swept off her feet and she's all "whoo hoo dress and necklace and being appreciated". I don't like Ray. But anyway. If Ray ends up deceiving or hurting Felicity in even the most minute way (you know long term) I'm writing to the CW. Handle with care my man.

Ray. Ray. Ray. Ray. Ray. (should I leave it at that?) Ok real talk, is it just BR making Ray seem like he's on some sort of drug or is Ray just. Like. That? But anyway, the money dropping thing really did not impress me. Ray is an interesting character in that I need to calm myself down and say "give him a chance" every time he does something that makes me twitch. And he makes my eye twitch pretty much every episode, except ep 3.

Ray and Felicity have an interestingly comfortable relationship right now. I mean I guess with Felicity slobbering every time they see each other she's kinda like "dudes seen me cry so whatever" but that comfort stems from a serious...acceptance on Felicity's part of Ray and his bitchisms. It's weird, I think it came in episode 2 when she gave in and decided to work for him. That had to be a massive hurdle to get over what with hand waving the stalking accusations, the buying her company because she was stubborn, the being deceitful about buying QC. (my life would be so much easier if ep 2 didn't happen). If I took this episode at face value without prior information I'd still be really wacked about the money dropping schemes but I would think they've known and trusted each other a fair amount of time. Very Pepper Potts and Tony Starc, although I feel Tony accepts and embraces that he's a douche. Ray...doesn't. I'm so tired of men turning away from Felicity I won't even waste breath on that.

Hmmm Oliver Queen. This man. Got a long way to go my man. Love his interaction with Roy, love his interaction with Cupid, love that he went to dinner at Dig and Lyla's. Gosh that was so important, no more wallowing in that dungeon. On with life we go sir. Gosh you know SA's acting and revealing of Oliver's vulnerability is really wonderful to see. His quiet "oh" with both Dig and Felicity told me everything I needed to know about how he's handling things. And that's not well. I actually don't think he's going to retreat into his shell again, that's why that family dinner was so important. He messed up. Reap what you sow my man. That ending was so...well look I feel bad for him because frankly I wouldn't wish that on anyone, seeing the woman you love eating face with the guy that has your family company. Moving on. Ohhh the show acknowledges that Oliver is a head case. Wonderful wonderful.

Oliver and Felicity. Yeah I don't have much to say here. I'm glad they're not together. Moving on.

Dig acting as counsellor for Oliver and Felicity. What have they reduced this man to??????? They're big boys and girls, let them deal. Fine he loves them and wants what's best but shoosh now Diggle.

Cupid. Cuuuuuuupiiiiiiiiiiid!!!!!! Bring her back! Bring her back! Talk about batshniz crazy. But I adored every one of her scenes. Totally called her killing that computer guy. Poor thing. She'll make and interesting addition on the Suicide Squad.

Don't have much to say about Thea and idiot DJ. Why didn't she shove him away? Is that kosher now? Moving on.

P.S. right now I am really glad Felicity and Oliver won't share the same breath for extended periods of time. I want and desperately need for Oliver to be better, to be okay. Felicity I enjoy being an adult so all clear there. I do think the realisation on Felicity's part that she wants Oliver will be fun. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop concerning her to be honest.

[apinknightmare]

I disagree about the tech vs. dress, obviously, but ITA with you that using fashion and jewelry to woo her to a platonic dinner was messy and pointless. Whether it was tech, a dress, a car, or paying off her student loans, I can't fathom why the writers felt it necessary at all to dangle a carrot to get her to go with Ray.

 

Oh, I totally agree with you about this. The bribe wasn't at all necessary and it made the narrative messy because why was Ray "bribing" her with romantic gestures if he intended the night to be platonic? Unless he said that to make Felicity believe it was supposed to be platonic when he meant for it to be romantic, or...I don't know. I wish they'd just get to the point of whatever it is he's doing because I feel like everything that's supposed to make me accept him make me think he's shady, and I accept all the things that are supposed to make me think he's shady.

[tv echo]

We can all agree to disagree. ; )  I don't think Felicity should accept a tech toy bribe either.

 

I first said it was in character for Felicity to appreciate the couture dress because she likes fashionable clothes.  I then said it was out of character for her to agree to wear a dress that her boss picked out for her.  

 

I can't help but personalize this.  If my boss offered me an expensive dress in just my size to wear to a business dinner with him, I would turn it down and also be wigged out because of the sexual harassment vibes.  If he offered me the use of a tech gadget to persuade me to go to this business dinner, I'd turn it down but be less offended because I know said boss is a tech nerd and such an offer would've been made regardless of my gender.

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

Palmer Technologies has some terrible security if Oliver Queen can just stroll into the building in the middle of the night.

[apinknightmare]

Palmer Technologies has some terrible security if Oliver Queen can just stroll into the building in the middle of the night.

 

He's a shareholder though, he should have access to the building.

[hogwash]

This was written by the two women who wrote TOD (my Arrow nemesis), wasn't it? I didn't outright hate this episode though. It was fine. That speech about Ray during the date was bizarre though. It was so earnest and at one point, she looked like she was going to cry. What was the purpose of that?! Where did that even come from?! She wasn't even interested in going to the dinner and then she's pratically moved to tears explaining how great Ray is? Just so some random dude will sell his company(?) to Ray? That speech took me out of the episode completely. I couldn't remember anything in their past interactions that would lead to that speech. I know Ray's creepy and probably knows everything about her, but when/where/how/why did Felicity get any of that??

 

This is also not a very good love triangle. No love triangle is a good one as far as I'm concerned but pointless ones that only exist to keep the main pairing apart for a while longer are the freaking worst. They also managed to combine the worst staples of love triangles in one episode. The stand-in pairing kiss in the first and only episode either characters give any inclination they're romantic interested in each other. The romantic lead goes to confess his feelings and make the main pairing work, but just so happens to stumble upon THE KISS (the exact moment it happens, of course). And now the main pairing is dead again and the love triangle continues because...uh...one date and a kiss means clearly the other romantic lead (who was hopelessly in love and interested moments before) has seemingly moved on.

 

I hate love triangles. I can't believe Olicity is actually in one. I think I would be less annoyed if it was actually a good one.

 

It seems like the show really really likes the 6 months of "training" and you're a badass thing. Roy's transformation is still the worse (a Mirakuru coma gave me archery skills), but this Cupid is a distant second. I liked her, but she beats the Huntress and Thea. She might even beat Laurel. She got fighting, archery, AND knife skills in a couple of months. With some exceptions, it never adds up anytime they show exactly how a character goes from point A to point B (for badass). It's like they have no idea how much dedication it actually takes to do these things. Sara/Merlyn/Lyla/Diggle work because we only got an acceptable time period and a vague idea of how they got that good. Katana/Tatsu/Slade/Shado are badass from the start so no explanation need.

 

Also, NO MORE FREAKING ARCHERS! The show has officially reached it's quota for archers this season. No more new characters with bows and arrows! Not even a freaking crossbow! Boomerangs for everyone!

Edited November 20, 2014 by hogwash

[KenyaJ]

For some reason I feel quite "meh" about this episode. I liked it overall to be fair, I think the only point of contention was that wonderful speech Felicity gave about Ray. That left me like waaaaaah? But honestly I totally believed Felicity (kudos to EBR) and I thought it was all wonderful. I guess substitute Ray with Oliver and you've got a winner but anyhow.

 

The substance of the speech aside, I really appreciated that moment for showing Felicity being an adept businesswoman and being good at making a pitch. It gave me hope for her going big, important managerial things at QC long after Ray is gone.

[NumberCruncher]

This was written by the two women who wrote TOD (my Arrow nemesis), wasn't it? I didn't outright hate this episode though. It was fine. That speech about Ray during the date was bizarre though. It was so earnest and at one point, she looked like she was going to cry. What was the purpose of that?! Where did that even come from?! She wasn't even interested in going to the dinner and then she's pratically moved to tears explaining how great Ray is? Just so some random dude will sell his company(?) to Ray? That speech took me out of the episode completely. I couldn't remember anything in their past interactions that would lead to that speech. I know Ray's creepy and probably knows everything about her, but when/where/how/why did Felicity get any of that??

I don't think the speech was really about Ray. It came off as if subconsciously she was really talking about Oliver. Given they're making Ray out to be a knock-off version of Oliver (they even had Ray steal Oliver's speech about saving the city), it would make sense for Felicity to be projecting feelings/comments about Oliver onto Mr. Stand-in Imitation.

[Password]

The substance of the speech aside, I really appreciated that moment for showing Felicity being an adept businesswoman and being good at making a pitch. It gave me hope for her going big, important managerial things at QC long after Ray is gone.

Absolutely, and I thank EBR once again for allowing me to see this side of Felicity. I swear thinking about it I almost see a mini Moira. *sobbing inside*

[Lady Calypso]

It wasn't the worst episode I've seen of this show. But it may be one of the most frustrating. 

 

Listen, Oliver's an ass. I know this fact about him and am aware of his douchebaggery whenever something doesn't go his way. The therapist is right; he does need therapy, and maybe more than just talking to Diggle. Diggle's a great start, but he needs someone unbiased. Diggle can only do so much with Oliver AND Felicity before he has to start choosing sides. Him telling Felicity to 'do what she wants' in a snide way and acting like an asshole wasn't right. Of course Felicity would go to the dinner. Of course, after hearing that Oliver 'needs' to be alone for the third, fourth or even tenth time, that she would go back to Ray and might possibly be curious about moving on. Ray certainly is like Oliver in many ways and it's probably crossed Felicity's mind. Ray has no baggage to what she knows about him, so why not? She definitely got into the kiss the moment Ray kissed her. It's her compensating for Oliver, once again, being a stubborn asshole and not wanting to form anything with her. Of course she's going to react in a way that won't make Oliver happy, because he needs to man up and be with her. 

 

However, I can also see it from Oliver's point of view. He's doing what he thinks is best. He doesn't quite realize that not being with Felicity is actually worse. Felicity's already part of the team. She's already signed herself up for getting in trouble and getting into danger just because she's Team Arrow. She's already gotten herself kidnapped and almost killed for the team and that was way before they were together. I could see Oliver being worried about the emotional connection being formed and possibly being distracted by her safety, but he can move past that. He already has feelings for her, the emotional connection is already there. He's already distracted by the prospect that Felicity might actually be moving on with Ray. He's hitting things in anger and he's being an asshole right to Felicity's face now. And that's because he's losing his ability to hide his emotions. His walls are certainly cracking hard. He didn't even attempt a smile when Felicity asked if she could take the night off. He looked so angry and he didn't even try to hide it, which is not common with him. He wants her to be happy, but he also doesn't want her to be with anyone else so he's struggling with that. 

 

Diggle being on Oliver's side was nice and it kind of worked, although I do think him going to Felicity's office to tell her how distracted Oliver is was slightly out of line. He knows as well as anyone that Oliver's in the wrong and he needs to make the move, not Felicity. I do get Diggle was probably trying to explain Oliver's shitty actions while trying to maintain the peace between the two. He shouldn't have to, though, like Felicity was saying. Oliver's a big boy who needs to learn how to communicate.

 

Carrie was actually very interesting. It's clear she hammed up her performance but I loved it. Awful writing aside, Amy G did a great job with what she had. I'm just impressed she could fight as well as she did. Ok, maybe not very well, but she managed to last a good chunk of time against Oliver.

 

DJ Prick was, well, a prick. I love Austin Butler, but that hairstyle does not look good on him. Go back to the short hair, dude. You look infinitely better. Also, his kiss with Thea? Random. Unless he has some sort of plan with Thea, I found it too...weird.

 

I love seeing Roy still affected by the cop killing. It'll take him a while to really get  over it, and I appreciate that they haven't let it go. Also, when Oliver hit the things off the table at the end and Roy appeared from behind the mannequin? Hilarious. 

[Sunshine]

Cupid was former SCPD not to mention SWAT.  This is probably where the fight training  and knives comes from.  Archery doesn't take months to pick it up especially if you train all the time.  Slapping water is optional.    

[Password]

I do feel we're forgetting that crazy was in a SWAT team so bitch has skills. I loved her. She is crazy as all get out, but for some reason I love insane women on TV.

Take Root on Person of Interest for example. Outta her damn mind, can't get enough of her.

[statsgirl]

Cupid had skills from before.  I can buy she picked up archery in six months given her obsession with the archer who saved her life.

 

 When Ray said she's VP I was also like eh? With what qualifications? 

It depends what kind of a VP she is.  Not  sales or anything administration-like but if she's a VP in charge of Special Projects where she runs a team that does whatever weird thing Ray gets into his head, I can buy that.

 

The more I think about Ray saying "I meant to keep this platonic" the more I think Ray's interest in her is not about Felicity herself.

 

 

I really appreciated that moment for showing Felicity being an adept businesswoman and being good at making a pitch. It gave me hope for her going big, important managerial things at QC long after Ray is gone.

Someone is going to have to do it if Oliver ever gets the company back.

Edited November 20, 2014 by statsgirl

[blackwing]

Hated this episode.  On the plus side (very plus), no awful Laurel and no even more awful Ted Grant.  On the negative (oh the negatives!), way too much Ray.  Seriously, too much.  What CEO would ever work out shirtless in his OFFICE in front of co-workers?  Creepy eyes, no boundaries. I still hold it against Brandon Routh for stealing Superman from Henry Cavill the first time, and I can't stand his awful wooden acting.  Just make him the Atom and kick him off this show and put him on Flash or a new one.

 

Curious if the Gardners that Ray and Felicity met with are supposed to be the parents of Guy Gardner, one of the Green Lanterns.

 

Zero interest in long haired DJ and Thea.

[Xenith22]

Cupid was former SCPD not to mention SWAT.  This is probably where the fight training  and knives comes from.  Archery doesn't take months to pick it up especially if you train all the time.  Slapping water is optional.    

Yeah between the Hunger Games craze and Arrow being considered a hero of Starling City...there are probably at least a dozen archery shops/ranges/training facilities that have opened up in the city in offscreenville over the past couple years.  And archery is one of those things that if you have any kind of arm stength and practice aiming something (which SCPD obviously would) it is not unreasonable that some could potentially pick it up in seconds to be able to aim adequately and become fairly adept/skiled in 3-4 months tops.

 

The more I think about Ray saying "I meant to keep this platonic" the more I think Ray's interest in her is not about Felicity herself,

Maybe I am not reading into it enough, but honestly I just thought that maybbe he genuinely wanted her for her brain and what she brings to the company, and despite being attracted to her realizes that dating the VP you hired is usually rather inappropriate and that if it ends badly he could lose her as an asset to the company and his atom plans.

 

Curious if the Gardners that Ray and Felicity met with are supposed to be the parents of Guy Gardner, one of the Green Lanterns.

While the name made me think of Guy too, I lean heavily towards no because Guy was from Baltimore, his parents were not rich, and his father was an abusive drunk.  So these Gardners do not seem to really fit? Edited November 20, 2014 by Xenith22

[paigow]

Also, NO MORE FREAKING ARCHERS! The show has officially reached it's quota for archers this season. No more new characters with bows and arrows! Not even a freaking crossbow! Boomerangs for everyone!

Can boxing gloves be attached to boomerangs with minimal degradation of flight path? 

[doesntworkonwood]

I liked the episode, but I didn't love it. 

 

I think one of the problems with the episode was the fact that it didn't seem to realise that there were previous episodes that it had to mesh with. I think it was written as too much of a standalone episode, which meant that the characters were a bit off, and the audience were left going huh?

 

I think it would have been pretty easy to fix the parts of the episodes that were rubbish, but that would include having to change previous episodes.

 

E.G. If Palmer had been introduced differently and we could see that Felicity did get along with him from the beginning (or there was more time to see that change and growth in their relationship), the kiss and date wouldn't have felt so contrived.

 

If that had happened, there wouldn't have been the need for any 'bribes' (and I genuinely think that the writers only put that there to make Ray seem more romantic, as, judging by the rest of the episode, they seem to have a strange idea of romance). The lack of dress and jewelry would have made for a more open and honest acceptance to the date. There wouldn't have been anything to mask it, and it would have felt more like Felicity was truly happy to be with Ray and truly moving on, which would have packed a lot more of an emotional punch. 

 

The speech she gave at the dinner felt entirely unearned, but wouldn't have if, again, there was more time spent building up their relationship, and that way, Ray would have felt like a viable threat to Oliver's relationship with Felicity. 

 

This is a pretty subtle change, and I get if no one agrees with me, but (had my other alterations occurred) I'd have really liked it if it was Felicity who initiated the kiss. I think that would have packed more of a punch, and made it seem like she was actively looking for alternatives to Oliver, especially after what he'd said over the comms. 

 

And of course, the DJ. Admittedly there's a thin line between cocky douche, and confident and attractive, but it would have been so much easier not to have crossed. First, you don't have the guy come in and tell everyone that he's better than them. Maybe Thea had auditioned hundreds and she was tired and he was the last one, so he promised her he'd give her something good. Then she'd actually give him the job, rather than he have to come and save her business. And no out-of-nowhere kiss, but maybe a comment about how she's cute. They could have built off of that during the next episode or so. 

[apinknightmare]

Maybe I am not reading into it enough, but honestly I just thought that maybbe he genuinely wanted her for her brain and what she brings to the company, and despite being attracted to her realizes that dating the VP you hired is usually rather inappropriate and that if it ends badly he could lose her as an asset to the company and his atom plans.

 

Yeah, I hope that's what it is. Creepy as he is to me, it would be sad if he had an ulterior motive as far as pursuing her romantically is concerned, since I'd hate for her "alternative" to not only have creepy tendencies but also not be genuinely interested in her.

[BunsenBurner]

Watched the episode didn't realize it was called Draw Back Your Bow until today. When I did the show made sense in my mind. I think the main characters Oliver, Felicity, Thea and to a small degree Roy and Diggle all took a step back so that they could move forward.

Oliver screwed up with Felicity and realized too late that he's wrong.

Felicity and her date with Ray was to me a throw back to her dating Cooper. Yeah they showed the stuff that would make it seem he was another Oliver but she's never dated him or should I say finished dating him. She has dated Cooper and Ray seems to be the kinder gentler Cooper.

Thea and the kiss. That DJ guy is there for a reason. With Thea's transformation she wouldn't put up with that. Was it a reminder of what could have been with Roy?

They had to go back to go forward.

I didn't articulate this well but I hope you understand.

[hogwash]

It wasn't a complete handwave. I liked the SWAT and the SCPD mentions. It made me think that the show was putting in the effort to show that the DiD we first saw had the necessary skills to back up the badass Cupid. But then she subdued Roy in what seemed like a matter of minutes (seconds?) and she managed to fight Oliver (who can go toe to toe with LOA archers and Mirakuru psychos) well enough to handcuff him to the tracks and it was a little too much. Even if Oliver was going easy on her (I have no idea why he would bother given her background and crime spree), for her to catch them both off guard and get the best of them to that extent... Eh, same old same old Arrow.

 

Can boxing gloves be attached to boomerangs with minimal degradation of flight path? 

 

That sounds bizarre and amazing.

[GirlWednesday]

Came back to chime in on the team arrow dinner without Felicity.

From Oliver perspective, he needs to be somewhere safe to be his real self. THEA relationship is not there yet. He now knows that he doesn't want to be in the dark alone DESPITE his asshat comments whenever Felicity is listening. Talk about self sabotage.

Roy is going through the same self-crisis so oliver needs to be there for him despite his man pain.

From Diggle's perspective, he knows oliver is emotional and vulnerable and distracted. He tried to push a quick resolution but to his best knowledge neither oliver or Felicity budged. So he can only do what he can which is be there for his friends. Felicity angsting and be vulnerable to Ray will not get her killed. Oliver being emotional in his decisions will get him killed. So I get why Diggle extended an invite to Oliver and did not mention the dinner to Felicity.

From Felicity's perspective, being part of team arrow is about doing good, making a difference and being heroic.. In part due to a need to redeem for what now is a false regret.

But being part of team arrow is also inviting so much darkness into her life. Being brilliant with her techy things and helping Ray is so simple and light, I'm sure she is really proud that she is able to be a hero and be brilliant at her real potential.

Team arrow is fractured because Oliver made it that way. Diggle barged back in after sarah died but Felicity quietly separated herself from the emotional satisfaction part of team arrow (Oliver) because oliver being dark and constantly abandoning her was going to destroy her. I was ok that she isn't part of those dinners. It will only draw her back in before she has found herself.

[Latverian Diplomat]

FWIW, in the comics Sherwood Florist was Dinah's Flower Shop when she and Ollie were doing the BC and GA thing in Seattle as opposed to Star City.

[BkWurm1]

First, Felicity grew up in Vegas with a beautiful mom and probably saw a lot of rich guys trying to buy her mom's "affections" with expensive gifts like jewelry and clothes.  So even though it's different in that Ray is only lending her the blue dress and necklace, she's too smart not to see the significance of allowing Ray to dress her like a doll - or a paid escort.

 

Ray is not a subtle guy.  If he was trying to get into her pants, he would have done a hell of a lot more than just asked her to go to a dinner with him so he wouldn’t be bored and offer her use of a fancy dress.  He was smart enough to know she’d like the dress but all he used it for was so he’d not be bored.  If Felicity hadn’t liked the dress she most likely would have turned it down but still gone with him to the work dinner.  She wasn’t really saying no, just needling him a bit first.

 

 

This is the guy that decided it would be a good idea to buy an entire retail chain store just so he could say he was already her boss.  The dress and even the necklace simply don’t mean that much to Ray and by extension, him giving their use to Felicity just doesn’t come with the same strings that some high roller in Vegas might imbue them with. 

 

 

The dress was probably equivalent of giving out a coffee mug with the company’s logo, actually less than that, it’s probably equivalent of him providing free coffee to his employees. It’s just a little perk of no real consequence to him.  

 

Second, by buying her the work dinner outfit, Ray is essentially saying that he doesn't trust her to dress herself appropriately.  The real Felicity would've told him "No thank you, you can wear the dress and necklace yourself."

 

More likely he is saying, come to the dinner with me, you don’t even have to waste time picking out an outfit.  If Felicity thought the items came with strings, yeah, she’d say forget it, but the dress and necklace were just a bit of fun, nothing too serious.  She even ditched Ray to go back to the Foundry (in the Glades!) while still wearing her ten million dollar bits of crystal.  If either of them was hung up on the necklace, he wouldn’t have let her go and she wouldn’t have dared gone.

[Angel12d]

We're only getting that from Oliver because he's the one who made the decision not to be with her, and it is decidedly coming back to bite him in the ass. She told him in that hospital that once they talked, it was over. She was in, and once he decided he wasn't, that was it. This is probably the first time Oliver has had someone shut him down like this romantically. In the past, he's always gotten away with being wishy-washy, with not being able to make up his mind and coming back around whenever he felt like it. Felicity let him know in no uncertain terms that he doesn't get to play with her heart like that, and she's sticking to it. I admire that.

 

Still, while she's not openly pining for him, I am getting signs that were he willing to admit he was wrong and make the decision to commit, she'd be willing to consider it again. And she does care about not hurting him; just look at the way she gently eased him into the idea that she was going out to dinner with Ray for work reasons. She was very quiet about it, let him know that it wasn't a date. She asked him if it was okay very tentatively, like she was hoping he'd say something about how he felt, but he didn't. When Dig went to her office and told her that Oliver had made the wrong decision, she didn't tell him she was better off, or that maybe it was the right decision as far as she was concerned because her feelings weren't the same. She told him that if Oliver felt he made a mistake, then he should be the one to say so; that if he wants another chance he needs to admit he wants one and ask for it.

 

I cut your comment here for space but I do agree with everything you've said. I think I should clarify that when I said I'd like Felicity's mask to slip now and then, it wasn't so Oliver could see her pining or whatever. It was so the audience could see just a little glimpse that she still feels for him. I know she does because I don't believe you can switch off your feelings or move on so quickly, but I think it's important to show the audience these things when writing a love triangle. 

 

I'm glad we're seeing these reactions and emotions from Oliver, especially after his were so subtle and verging on ambiguous at times during s2. It makes a nice change to see him so affected and I love that we've never seen him so gone over a woman, like ever. This is all good. But I just feel like I wanted a little more from Felicity, that's all. 

[ostentatious]

I interpreted Ray exactly that way, BkWurm1.
 
Sure, an unidentified boss and his unidentified attractive female employee in this situation would be different, but in this particular situation, Ray was definitely not trying to get into her pants. I don't think he even looked at her that way until she said nice things about him at dinner. It wasn't even the dress and how she looked in it, which tbqh meant less to him than the gold dress in "Dodger" meant to Oliver, IMO. It was that she said he was a good person who wants to do good. It's the same way with Oliver. Lance's "She really believes in you" and various other instances of Felicity's belief in him allowing him to believe in himself are what Oliver fell in love with. She hit Ray's radar for the same reasons, last night.
 
When the dress and the necklace went down, though...I don't think he was thinking that way *at all*. I completely agree it was about taking care of details (don't have time to shop, etc). It wasn't sexual.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ostentatious

[El Seed]

I don't think he was saying that at all. Felicity can clearly dress herself and nicely, and appropriate for work and the event. I doubt he thought she'd show up in sweat pants to a formal dinner.

Real Felicity always wears cute dresses and sometimes even over dresses (double date on Flash). I don't see anything unreal about her appreciating a dress. They don't show her as hating fashion/geeky/glasses and fully clothed from head to toe type smart girl (Ie, Amy on Big Bang). Felicity is more Bernadette, smart but also loves to be a girl. Which is why wearing and appreciating the dress, it actually real Felicity.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing where Felicity was out of character last night. Considering her wardrobe, her reaction to the dress felt on point (and I kind of love that she smelled it). I dislike the idea that "real" women aren't supposed to like clothes, jewelry, and other girly things. And I also dislike the idea that geeky girls aren't supposed to like those things either. Women can like whatever the fuck they want.

 

I'm not bothered that Felicity didn't tell Oliver about QC changing its name to Palmer Technologies. They're all adults here and Oliver was perfectly fine with giving up the company to someone else in 3X01. Though knowing this show and its propensity to cut scenes that bridge knowledge gaps, I wouldn't be surprised if they did film a scene where Felicity breaks it to him and they cut it for time or whatever. Of all the things I wish the show would spend more time on, this particular instance hovers somewhere near the bottom of my list.

 

In the scene where Felicity was telling Oliver about her work date with Ray, it was pretty clear she was challenging him. She was giving him a chance to say that he's bothered with her going out with another guy, even though the situation is platonic. All he had to do was speak up, but because Oliver can be stubborn and jealous he tells her "Do what you want." And yes, she can, but she was hoping to hear something else. So half a point to Oliver to saying he has no say in what she does, but he doesn't get that other half point for not just owning up to his shit and ending everyone's misery.

 

I wasn't bothered by Ray because I don't see him as creepy, but socially awkward. He gets so caught up in his ideas that he becomes clueless about social boundaries. If you bring it to his attention, he backs off. I don't think he had any intention of the work date being anything but just that. He's never shown any indication that he's attracted to her before; it's always been about her intelligence and skills. Actually, I think the reason he backed up after he kissed her is because he thought he might be crossing a boundary that Felicity didn't want him to cross (she was cool with it, buddy).

 

I was fine with Felicity's speech at the work dinner about Ray. She knows he's trying to do good, and she's basically trying to sell him a bit to Gardner. She's a VP at QC/PT, so I don't find the PR to be odd. Hell, she trusted Oliver when he was still racking up a body count, so I'm not going to get upset that she sees some good in a guy that often talks about how he and the company can help people.

 

Maybe Felicity kissing Ray seemed too soon to other people, but I disagree there. She's been told repeatedly that Oliver can't be with her, he has to be alone, blah blah blah manpaincakes. Not even a work date that is clearly not okay with Oliver is enough to move him from his stubborn stance, and Felicity gets to hear, again, that he can't be with anyone. At some point she had to accept what Oliver was telling her, and this was it. So she lets Ray kiss her, because she's attracted to him on some level and she has to move on, and she's heading straight to rebound city. I'm not upset that it looks like she's about to embark on a rebound relationship, because 1) rebounds are a normal thing to do, and 2) I think it'll clarify for her, in the end, that people not named Oliver Queen won't do for her. Oliver seeing them kiss is trope-licious, but whatever, dude made his bed so he has to lie in it now. His reaction, sending items on the table on a one-way air ride across the foundry, was him being angry at himself, which he should be because he waited too long. But! There's hope! Instead of wallowing in his misery by himself, he takes up Diggle on the dinner invitation, thereby acknowledging that he needs human connections, family, friends, etc., which tells me Oliver has come a long way in two years. I wish it hadn't taken quite as long, but he's getting there, and that's the part I care about more.

 

Honestly, the thing I hated the most about this episode was Austin Butler's hair. It's tragic. It's bad. It's tragibad. Dude, wash it and cut it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by El Seed

[Angel12d]

I have a little bit more perspective on this episode today so I'm not as annoyed as I was last night. But I am worried that my dislike of Ray is going to ruin all the scenes/episodes with him and Felicity for me. Because if this is an indication of how Felicity acts around Ray, I'm not interested in watching that tbh.

 

I had a random thought earlier that while Oliver and Roy were dining with Diggle and Lyla, Felicity was left all alone after Ray walked away from their kiss. I hate that. She's already feeling so removed from the team while she works with Ray at PT and now she's just on her own. :(

 

Also it's amazing how little the dress and necklace were actually needed to get Felicity to the work date. As VP, surely she would have been expected to be at a work dinner brokering a major deal so I don't understand why Ray didn't just say 'Felicity, you're the VP and you should be there.' Then we could have avoided the whole Pretty Woman-esque awkwardness that made me want to die.

[patchwork]

He's coming across as shady but I really hope Ray went after Felicity for her own sake and it had and never will have anything to do with Oliver (despite the all too easy SWF jokes that can be made at the Show's desperate attempts to make him Oliver-ish). Felicity is a genius with computers and she should have companies fighting one another to hire her.  

 

I know other people have a problem with it, mostly because it excluded Felicity, but I liked Oliver and Roy going to Diggle's for dinner. One of the few overarching storylines they've done well is Oliver adjusting to life post island. Yeah sometimes like last week he's twisted to fit the plot rather than the other way around but for the most part when he backslides it's for understandable reasons like failing to stop the Undertaking, Tommy's death, Moira/Slade. Choosing to join his friends rather than put on the hood and go beat up bad guys is a baby step forward in his recovery. 

 

In theory I don't have a problem with what's being done with Olicity this season but the execution on Felicity's side is terrible. They simply don't spend enough time on it.  I shouldn't have to rely on you guys to understand why she's getting all teary eyed and giving speeches about what a great guy Ray is. 

[Angel12d]

Hasn't Ray always had an agenda with Felicity though? He didn't know what she looked like but she knew her name when they first met at Tech Village. And he specifically tracked her down and bought out the company she worked for so she could work for him. That reads like an agenda to me. Even if he's a good guy deep down (and I assume he is because he's The Atom), creepy stalker stuff aside, he did want Felicity for his own purpose and he's hidden those reasons from her. It just remains to be seen whether she finds out sooner rather than later and how that affects her working with Team Arrow.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Angel12d

[Password]

Yeah still not convinced by that speech sorry. At least with Oliver not just Felicity but WE saw the good Oliver was doing. Her being able to say that about Ray implies a lot more than what we've been privvy to between the two of them.

In my head, it was projection. Definitely the moment Ray looked at her in a new light.

[blixie]

 

The dress was probably equivalent of giving out a coffee mug with the company’s logo, actually less than that, it’s probably equivalent of him providing free coffee to his employees. It’s just a little perk of no real consequence to him.

 

I also found Ray breaking the kiss and  saying that he wanted the dinner to be platonic as extremely earnest and genuine, almost as if he didn't want to be *distracted* from some larger purpose he has in working with her, and he really doesn't want her to perceive him as using her brain to get her body or her body to get at her brain. But I honestly don't see it as that different than Oliver exploiting Felicity as an QC IT employee to do work for The Vigilante, which actually was quite bit worse since she was unknowingly helping him in the commission of crime and murders. Something she was righteously and awesomely pissed off about, and only abided for her own reasons: to find Walter. 

 

Similarly I think she abides Ray's less than flattering qualities/behaviors, because she has her own reasons/desires. She yet and still sees a lot to like, he respects, admires, and most importantly REWARDS her intelligence, and by god she NEEDS and deserves that kind of focus and attention. I see her using Ray's attention to bolster her own bruised feelings something Oliver has more than indulged in, while she had to stand by and watch. Fair is fair: sit and spin Oliver.

[Shanna]

Either way, she's allowing herself to be bribed to come to dinner, which still seems stupid to me, since, as a VP of the company, a bribe should have been unnecessary to secure her presence at the dinner. .

I think she was going to dinner regardless, she was just playing with ray. Maybe she was fishing for why he wanted her to go. I do not think the dress made the deal, it was just icing on the cake.

She was overdressed though. I don't know why the show didn't even try to make the occasion or the other couple match the trouble of a 10 million dollar necklace - or at least put them in the ballpark.

[KenyaJ]

I think she was going to dinner regardless, she was just playing with ray. Maybe she was fishing for why he wanted her to go. I do not think the dress made the deal, it was just icing on the cake.

 

Having straightforward, blunt Felicity play games with Ray to get him to cajole her into going with him would make me feel even worse about that scene than I already do.

[Password]

To me it seemed she was interested at first, then he mentioned her basically being his wing woman and it deflated her a bit. Never mind the hundreds of other people he could've asked. I think she was fishing why he wanted her to go at first, but that's not playing games. The salmon ladder genuinely made her go (oh wow hot hot hot) so that when he said are you free tomorrow she must have thought ooh why.

The more I think about Ray being her boss, the more uncomfortable I am with the whole thing. I don't know, there's awkward socially, then there's Ray Palmer.

[tv echo]

This is frustrating.  I never said that real women or geeky women didn't like clothes, jewelry and girly things.  In fact, I said the opposite - that Felicity does like these things and that was part of her character.

 

My point - which you are free to disagree with - is that there is a difference between liking these things and accepting them from your boss - even as a loaner.  And I didn't think Felicity would agree to wear such items offered by Ray.

 

My other point - which was less clear - is not that Ray was necessarily trying to seduce Felicity with the dress and necklace (not consciously, at any rate), but that Felicity should be aware of the appearance of impropriety associated with it and should have a natural distaste of seeing a rich guy showering expensive 'gifts' a la Pretty Woman - even if it's just a loan in her case - from growing up with a beautiful mom in Vegas.  Ray picking out a dress and necklace for her was just inappropriate, whatever his reasons.

 

At any rate, we're probably over-analyzing something the EPs probably spent about two seconds thinking about.

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

[GirlWednesday]

Regarding the dinner invite, I had the opposite impression of Felicity. Not taking him seriously at all.  Although, given all the dinners and random events, Felicity had to attend with Oliver, I'd figure she would just go with it if Ray asked seriously.  But the bantering started about wingwomen, etc. I took all of that as just bantering.

[Danny Franks]

The more I think about Ray being her boss, the more uncomfortable I am with the whole thing. I don't know, there's awkward socially, then there's Ray Palmer.

 

There's also the fact that he claims to have hired her, promoted her and showered her with praise because she warrants it for her professional value to him... and then he's plying her with expensive clothes and jewelry and kissing her after hours. So there's clearly something about her that he values, but I wouldn't be so sure it's her brains.

 

As for the dress and the thought behind it by 50 Shades or by the writers? I doubt it extended beyond, 'she's a girl. Girls like pretty dresses'. That seems to be about as much thought as they've put into anything, recently.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[KirkB]

I'm the one who made the point a while back about Oliver having a hissy fit after seeing Felicity and Ray kiss, which several people seem to disagree with. And that's fine. The thing is, I actually agree with you. Oliver was angry at himself for causing the problem. What I was trying to say, and may not have done very clearly, is that I thought we were supposed to feel sympathy for Oliver, when my reaction was basically "it's your own damn fault!"

 

Thea's reaction to the DJ kissing her wasn't, IMO, out of character or anything. It was more surprise. Besides, even if she wanted to she couldn't very well snap his neck in front of hundreds of people. You just have to wait for the news report the next day where a popular local DJ was found strung up by his tongue or face down in the river. Seriously though, that guy bugged me. And I want to see Thea interacting with Malcolm and Oliver, not some random douche.

 

I think the problem with Ray is, we don't have a clear understanding of his motivations. If he was doing everything just to get in Felicity's pants he's doing it in a very roundabout way. If he genuinely wants her to help him run the company why has it taken this many episodes for us to (sort of) find out what her position is? And I'm in the minority but I don't see why Felicity would be upset about Palmer changing the company name and logo. It's his. He can do that. He's under no obligation to keep the Queen name. Wouldn't make much business sense anyway. And whether Felicity likes the idea or not, it's not a very good idea to try and tell your boss he can't do something.

[Danny Franks]

And whether Felicity likes the idea or not, it's not a very good idea to try and tell your boss he can't do something.

 

If that was the way Felicity felt about this, or any other decision 50 Shades made, then she would absolutely not be cut out to be a VP of anything. What use is a yes-man (or woman, in this case) to anyone? If she has no opinion on it, then she's pretty callous, if she had reservations and hid them, then she's in the wrong job. If he likes her for her intelligence, as he claims, then would he not value her opinion and listen to it before making decisions? Or is she little more than a pretty acquisition that he wants to show off to people?

[KirkB]

Felicity wasn't surprised at the press conference. She didn't act as if she didn't know the change was coming. Which tells me she knew and approved. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she helped with the logo since she seemed to be quite proud of it. It's not Queen Consolidated anymore so why would he keep the old name? And the way she stuck up for Ray at dinner tells me she's on the same page with him.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver's still a shareholder. There's no way he didn't know about the name change before that press conference.

[KirkB]

Oliver's still a shareholder. There's no way he didn't know about the name change before that press conference.

 

Maybe so, but between being busy as the Arrow and his still existing Oliver Queen tendencies, what do you think are the odds he was reading the company newsletter?

[Danny Franks]

Felicity wasn't surprised at the press conference. She didn't act as if she didn't know the change was coming. Which tells me she knew and approved. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she helped with the logo since she seemed to be quite proud of it. It's not Queen Consolidated anymore so why would he keep the old name? And the way she stuck up for Ray at dinner tells me she's on the same page with him.

 

Why is she? Simple question. Why would Felicity Smoak, the woman who purportedly loves Oliver Queen, the woman who worked for Queen Consolidated and has great affection for the previous CEO, Walter Steele, the woman who wanted to help Oliver get "his company" back in the season opener, now be on the same page as the guy who is changing the name of said company?

 

Because he bought her a dress? Is she that pissed at Oliver turning away from her? Does she just have no empathy for what this may mean to other people at all? Or is it just shitty writing, where they didn't actually consider the character ramifications of the scene they were writing? I know which my money is on.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[blackwing]

I guess I find it a little hard to believe that an independent and intelligent woman like Felicity could be bought for a dress.  Frankly, I don't get the hype about the dress, but then again, I don't understand high fashion.  She said it was couture but often times couture looks no different to me than any other dress you can get off the rack.  Felicity has worn gowns before which must have been her own and IMO she looked no less attractive than this "couture" one that probably cost at least $5,000.  Do they infuse some sort of brainwashing perfume into these couture dresses?

[apinknightmare]

Maybe so, but between being busy as the Arrow and his still existing Oliver Queen tendencies, what do you think are the odds he was reading the company newsletter?

 

A name change probably would've required a shareholder vote though - he would've had to vote on it.

I guess I find it a little hard to believe that an independent and intelligent woman like Felicity could be bought for a dress.  Frankly, I don't get the hype about the dress, but then again, I don't understand high fashion.  She said it was couture but often times couture looks no different to me than any other dress you can get off the rack.  Felicity has worn gowns before which must have been her own and IMO she looked no less attractive than this "couture" one that probably cost at least $5,000.  Do they infuse some sort of brainwashing perfume into these couture dresses?

 

Yeah, that dress was expensive, but it was not couture. They could've at least taken the tag off, haha.

[GirlWednesday]

In real life, Shareholders have to approve rebranding stuff.  So Oliver and Thea should have known beforehand. 

In my mind, Oliver after 3x01 said that he was okay with Ray taking over and bringing it back to its former glory.  If Oliver wanted to separate completely from QC business but still be a shareholder, he would have had to sign over his voting rights to someone (at QC) or another investor (Walter).  Either way, Oliver should have known beforehand.

 

I think I read somewhere that Writers wanted to move away from QC corporate stuff when it comes to Oliver's storyline.  Understandable since we now have a platoon practically in the arrow cave. But that's probably why there was no REEL LIFE scene about rebranding cuz BORING (in my opinion).  Because if I want to see Oliver be in Manpain, I want it to be about losing Sara AGAIN, pushing Felicity away, mentoring Roy, not living up to Diggle's expectations.  I have zero interest in his manpain regarding his family company caused by his own negligence - I think it undermines his character alittle too much.

Edited November 20, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[Danny Franks]

I guess I find it a little hard to believe that an independent and intelligent woman like Felicity could be bought for a dress.  Frankly, I don't get the hype about the dress, but then again, I don't understand high fashion.  She said it was couture but often times couture looks no different to me than any other dress you can get off the rack.  Felicity has worn gowns before which must have been her own and IMO she looked no less attractive than this "couture" one that probably cost at least $5,000.  Do they infuse some sort of brainwashing perfume into these couture dresses?

 

Ray Palmer has had his pheromones replaced with a rohypnol/chloroform mix. It makes women far more biddable and far less likely to see that he's a creepy stalker who wants to harvest their organs.

 

I think I read somewhere that Writers wanted to move away from QC corporate stuff when it comes to Oliver's storyline.  Understandable since we now have a platoon practically in the arrow cave. But that's probably why there was no REEL LIFE scene about rebranding cuz BORING (in my opinion).  Because if I want to see Oliver be in Manpain, I want it to be about losing Sara AGAIN, pushing Felicity away, mentoring Roy, not living up to Diggle's expectations and not about the family company which he ignored and allowed to be ruined last year because he was an idiot.

 

 

They also said that they didn't like doing secret identity stuff, so just handwaved all the times when it was blazingly obvious who he is under the hood. I say, if you don't want to write about a masked vigilante with a secret identity who is also a billionaire businessman, then don't write a fucking show about Oliver Queen!

Edited November 20, 2014 by Danny Franks