S01.E09: Harvey Dent

[immortalfrieza]

I can't believe I nearly forgot about this, but how did Selina see the Waynes' killer, especially well enough to make a sketch? As I recall the guy was wearing a mask and Selina was viewing him from behind.

At least Barbara might have gotten some time for retooling and suffering shock over her kidnapping could be a good way to build sympathy from the audie... and they just undercut it for a cheap girl-girl scene.

I don't know about everybody else, but I for one don't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for Barbara and her whole "boo hoo I'm having nightmares about the psycho that kidnapped me!" note considering that it was ENTIRELY her fault that she was kidnapped and then held by that guy in the first place. The fact that Barbara went straight to Montoya didn't help matters either. Edited November 19, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[Chief Queef]

I don't think Barbara is intended to be likeable. She nearly gets herself and her partner killed by her own stupidity, and then in the very next episode she abandons and cheats on him? She's an asshole. As a queer lady I'm usually cheering for any and all lesbian action on TV, but the actress is playing her so blank and wooden I can only imagine her as awful in bed :-(

And whoa, the Penguin is the man on this show. He's certainly got a skill for getting all his little pawns lined up. I know it's a comic book show but to me it stretches the bounds of credibility that nobody is trying to kill him right now. He's SO past the point of being a no-name henchman and SO obviously a looming threat. I thought these people were supposed to be crime lords? Give them some brains maybe? And to me Harvey Dent was wasted in this episode. He's onscreen for half a minute before showing his hand? We get it, show, he's Two Face. Chill.

[Kromm]

Oh lord. We're apparently stuck with a Harvey Dent who's an even worse, even more over the top actor than Jada Smith. Ugh.

This show is such a hit and miss mix between top shelf actors and absolute rubbish. Working right next to each other in the same scenes.

[Kromm]

Barbara is one of the dumbest and shallowest character ever on tv . Period. Please, please, please, kill her off.  In fact, in this Batman version, it would be best if Barbara Keane is killed off. And Jim Gordon and his new squeeze name their baby girl, Barbara, after her.

I'm in favor of the version where Jim Gordon's long lost brother shows up, Barbara hooks up with him, has his baby, and Barbara Junior is Jim Gordon's niece, who only comes to live with him after her parents (eventually) die.

[cambridgeguy]

We didn't see much of it but it looks like Montoya has a pretty nice apartment.  Who knew a cop could afford such a nice place?

 

The show has a slight problem on its hands with Penguin.  RLT is so good that most scenes without him are pretty bland, but they can't really put him front and center all the time or he'll be the man who rules Gotham by season 2.

[Chief Queef]

I agree, the Penguin is so much more charismatic and fleshed out than the other villains that it makes their scenes together awkward at times. Falcone and Maroni are run-of-the-mill Mafia baddies and Fish Mooney is a scenery-chewing "muahahaa" cartoon villain. He outshines them already and it doesn't fit with the "young aspiring boss on the come up" role he is meant to occupy on the show. Like, how does no one recognize him as their biggest threat?

[maraleia]

How about Montoya deserves a better woman than Barbara? That's my take on the sapphic content of this show.

[Kromm]

How about Montoya deserves a better woman than Barbara? That's my take on the sapphic content of this show.

I'm only prepared to go so far with that.  Firstly, later apology or not, she persecuted someone in large part out of jealousy.  Then later on, under the guise of helping Gordon, putting herself in the virtual position of partnering up with him in a sense, she's meanwhile sleeping with his girlfriend.

 

To add to the damage to the character of Montoya, if Barbara doesn't stay with her (it isn't likely) then Montoya comes off as even more of a dumbass, because she's a rebound and darn well likely knows it.  She's getting her licks in (pun intended) but that's about it.  

[Delphi]

I think it's more likely that Barbara was staying at a hotel, it wasn't made clear but that's the impression I got.

I was pleasantly surprised with Bruce and Selina. I don't think Bruce is too mature compared to some other posters. As a comic geek I think it's been pretty well established that Bruce began his training at around twelve and this episode did a good job of establishing him of someone furthering his education on his own terms and becoming the all around genius he becomes.

Aside from all the scenes at the manor I felt the rest of the episode lacking. Honestly I want to see more of Falcone and Liza, but that doesn't seem all too likely which is a shame.

Eta: Just because she's going be catwoman doesn't mean she needs to drink milk all the time. Though granted the healthy bones and teeth will be helpful in about twelve years.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Delphi

[Dobian]

Holy lesbians, Batman!

I have a feeling they're going to milk this love triangle for the rest of the season.

[Joseph Finn]

Well, there goes my hope of at least a few weeks without Barbara the Blond Hostage.

[joeyjoey]

This is great because I was worried we didn't have enough characters.

Seriously, is this the "Love Actually" of crime shows where we have to check in on 72 different storylines every week and each of them gets 30 seconds of screen time? The only really good episodes so far have been the ones that discarded most of the ongoing plots and focused exclusively on one or two stories. But the more moving parts the show adds, the less they'll be able to do that.

 

The way it's going, there's gonna be a paperboy knocking on the door of Wayne Manor, and it's Clark Kent.

[maczero]

I seem to be the only one who didn't care for the Bruce/Selina kiddie antics.  Not only did it feel out of place, but for me, it represented everything that I DO NOT want to see in this show:  Kiddie romance!  I thought they took up more airtime than they should have.  I guess the writers are making this show such an odd mix so that it caters to everyone.  We've got kiddies Bruce and Selina in one scene, and lesbian lovers Barbara and Renee in the next.

I didn't but for a different reason.  I think the actress playing young Selina is horrible and it was tough making through her scenes without cringing.  I believe her casting is clearly a case of wanting someone who looks the part (she's a dead ringer for a young Michelle Pfeifer) more than anything else.

Edited November 18, 2014 by maczero

[jbrecken]

When Nygma was listening to a radio trivia game, the contestant got the question how many eyes in a deck of playing cards wrong by half because she forgot that playing cards have two faces. That kind of subtlety I like.

"Dick Lovecraft" should be a porn actor.

[Milz]

I'm in favor of the version where Jim Gordon's long lost brother shows up, Barbara hooks up with him, has his baby, and Barbara Junior is Jim Gordon's niece, who only comes to live with him after her parents (eventually) die.

 

Batgirl shouldn't be cursed by having 50% of Barbara Keane's genome. I can imagine Batgirl on Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates with him revealing her DNA breakdown.

 

HLG: "Okay Batgirl, I want you to look at this graph."

 

BG: "Holy Color-me-shocked, Professor Gates! I didn't think I had 50% stoopid genes! I thought it would be much higher than that because my father had to be stoopid to get involved with my mother!"

 

HLG: "Well, you might have inherited some stoopid from your father, but you definitely inherited stoopid from your mother, Barbara Keane."

 

BG; "You're right. It could have been much worse."

 

HL:"So what do you think about your ancestors after having all this information?"

 

BG: "I know love is blind, but I didn't think my dad could be blind and stoopid. But if he didn't get together with my mom, then I wouldn't be born. And Gotham wouldn't have Batgirl."

 

HLG: "We can all appreciate that sentiment. We are the products of our ancestors decisions: some stoopid, as in the case of Batgirl. Others not so stoopid. Join us for our next episode when three new guests will have their family trees revealed."

[Kromm]

Well Batgirl's hero's journey could be overcoming her stoopid legacy. That's dramatic.

[Danny Franks]

So I wanted to give Barbara a chance, despite my incredible misgivings at the whole concept of the character (and that was before the show even started. Before she became the object of obsession for a creepy ex who would rather frame the new squeeze than do her job properly). But she's just a colossal waste of time. I have no clue how 'going away for a while' becomes 'fucking my old girlfriend', but it's certainly a liberal translation. Are the writers trying to turn the audience against her now, so they can ship her out? If so, good. She can take this dreadful version of Montoya with her.

 

Gordon definitely deserves better than a girlfriend who cheats on him and an ally who sleeps with his girlfriend behind his back. Morena Baccarin is coming onto the show? Please tell me it's as a regular.

 

Selina is the best thing about the show, so far. She's got so much life and personality, and the actress is great in the role. Her role is shaping up almost like I originally hoped, with her being an unrepentant reprobate who nevertheless gravitates towards straight arrow Jim Gordon. She's a snarky little delight. Shame she's stuck in scenes with that dead fish kid who plays Bruce. He just has no charisma at all. Yeah, yeah, PTSD and all that, but there should be a spark of something, and there just isn't.

 

I can see that they're trying to forge a connection between Bruce and Selina, but she seems so very much older and wiser than him that the implications are kind of gross. I also really, really do not like this iteration of Alfred. No idea who decided this is how they're going to write him.

 

The idea of Selina living with Bruce strikes me as veering close to that Gotham City High show (or whatever it was going to be called), that was dreamt up a few years back. Just throw in Ivy, Joker, and  the Penguin as Alfred's (creepy, psychotic) apprentice, and they're all set to go.

 

The trouble with Harvey Dent.... I just kind of want to see him become Two Face. And I really hope that they keep the comic book version, with the acid thrown in his face in court, rather than the overblown, absurd, melodramatic nonsense of The Dark Knight.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Danny Franks

[paigow]

So except for Catwoman, all the future bad guys (Nygma, Dent, Penguin) are already 15 - 20 yrs older than Bruce Wayne. Batman will need to chase these guys down in Palm Springs, not Gotham.  

[Timetoread]

It's official, I can't stand Selina.  I don't think she's cute or even remotely interesting.  She's just a smug little, one-note, overly precocious brat with eyes that are too big for her face.  Her entirety is in the fact that she will grow up to be Catwoman so they don't bother to write ANY actual personality for her other than to sample The Artful Dodger and jump around at weird angles.  Bruce can do better.  So can I in my television viewing.

[Danny Franks]

So except for Catwoman, all the future bad guys (Nygma, Dent, Penguin) are already 15 - 20 yrs older than Bruce Wayne. Batman will need to chase these guys down in Palm Springs, not Gotham.  

 

While age has never seemed to mean a whole lot in the Batman universe (Bruce is eternally 35, I think), I have to agree that it's asking the viewer to suspend their disbelief a little too much. Penguin? Fine. He's older anyway. Riddler always seemed like a younger guy, in the comic books, perhaps even younger than Batman himself. And Harvey seemed like a contemporary (excluding Tommy Lee Jones's terrible portrayal of him).

 

As long as the show never, ever introduces the Joker, it can just about slide. But I kind of see them bringing in a best friend for Bruce, somewhere down the line, who really likes practical jokes and has a weird laugh, and generally seems a bit unhinged. Because this show and the concepts of restraint and subtlety are not close associates.

[Kromm]

Eh.  I guess it's not a 100% disaster, since neither Penguin nor Riddler fight Batman physically--they have weapons and henchmen.  They can be older with no effect really.

 

Two Face does occasionally fight Batsy himself, so admittedly that's a bit of a problem.  And the lesser rogues gallery is all ones who fight him mano-e-mano, and they've burned up Black Mask and Victor Zsasz already this short into the series as this much older than him.

 

Of the young set, they've protected not JUST Catwoman, but also Poison Ivy, and Hush (

Tommy Elliot

) as the right ages to be alongside Brucie. so that's something. 

 

Unspoken for is

Bane (although he's a mid-career or later Batman villain by definition, since he can't fulfill his role until Batman is well established), Scarecrow, Killer Croc (who might be too ridiculous to exist in the TV-verse), Hugo Strange (who IS admittedly another old guy), Mad Hatter (another one who could be badly done), Mister Freeze (ditto), The Ventriloquist (ditto), Clayface (ditto), Ra's al Ghul (covered by the Arrowverse, so can't be used in the Gothamverse), Shiva and David Cain, Anarky, and a million other lesser lights.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kromm

[NorthstarATL]

So except for Catwoman, all the future bad guys (Nygma, Dent, Penguin) are already 15 - 20 yrs older than Bruce Wayne. Batman will need to chase these guys down in Palm Springs, not Gotham.  

Older does not mean less dangerous. In very few instances does Batman go toe to toe physically with a villian (It's why Bane was created), so the years of experience should weight things in the rogues' favor.

 

Batgirl shouldn't be cursed by having 50% of Barbara Keane's genome.

Actually, it would help to explain a particularly foolish move she makes in an Alan Moore written book.

[Kromm]

Actually, it would help to explain a particularly foolish move she makes in an Alan Moore written book.

Sure a book that's disgusted a lot of people and had to be written around bigtime by a few decades of follow up books. Moore himself has said he hates that book (Moore admitted the idea of crippling Barbara was indeed his but that he ran it by Len Wein, who allegedly said 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.')

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kromm

[VCRTracking]

Bruce and Selina were adorable and Barbara is the WORST.

[NorthstarATL]

Sure a book that's disgusted a lot of people and had to be written around bigtime by a few decades of follow up books. Moore himself has said he hates that book (Moore admitted the idea of crippling Barbara was indeed his but that he ran it by Len Wein, who allegedly said 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.')

It still bugs that, with a chance to remove it from  her history in a fresh start that erased almost everything else, it was the ONE thing that the publisher retained!

Oh, and I noticed we both posted the age thing at the same time! LOL! (I agree, of course.)

[LoneHaranguer]

 

So except for Catwoman, all the future bad guys (Nygma, Dent, Penguin) are already 15 - 20 yrs older than Bruce Wayne. Batman will need to chase these guys down in Palm Springs, not Gotham.

Unless Mr. Freeze puts them on ice for a while.

[paigow]

Instead of the Dark Knight triangle of Bruce - Rachel - Harvey, there could be a polygon of Jim - Barbara - Harvey - Montoya. Harvey would be the bio-dad and Jim would raise her after Harvey morphs.

[Domenicholas]

Trying to figure out who the bomber's actor was was driving me crazy until I realized he was Sam from Smash.

 

I also thought that I saw the actor who played Harvey Dent before, so I looked him up and found out he was West from Heroes.  Joy.

[Jediknight]

Two Face does occasionally fight Batsy himself, so admittedly that's a bit of a problem.  And the lesser rogues gallery is all ones who fight him mano-e-mano, and they've burned up Black Mask and Victor Zsasz already this short into the series as this much older than him.

They haven't burned through Black Mask.  Remember the guy they used was Richard Sionis, not Roman Sionis.  So they'll say it's Roman's father.

[Sandman]

Well, I didn't mind Dent. (Full disclosure: I think Two-Face in the Joel Schumacher Batman movies is Tommy Lee Jones' only truly bad performance, and I think Aaron Eckhart's version is overrated. Actually, I think Aaron Eckhart is overrated.)

 

I liked that Bruce got a chance to be a kid for a while; I liked that Alfred got to see Bruce be a kid for a while. (I thought the scene last week where Alfred gives Bruce his father's watch to use as a pair of brass knuckles to beat the snot out of schoolyard bully was creepy overkill. Gross.)

Arkham is open for business!  Bring on the super freaks!

 

Judging by the guy who got off the GCPD prisoner transport bus just ahead of Hargrove, the inmates at Arkham include Sideshow Bob! (?)

 

I like the guy playing Nygma, too -- although there again, the bar's pretty low: Frank Gorshin from the 60s tv show and Jim Carrey were awful.

 

... he ran it by Len Wein, who allegedly said 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.'

 

Speaking of awful, what's Wein's problem? Jeepers.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Sandman

[truthaboutluv]

A bit late so it's all been said but I feel I must add my voice to the choir of "Barbara is awful and Gordon can do so much better." Like others, I was surprised to find that her note to Jim had some semblance of self-awareness and I totally bought the ruse that she would be gone for a few episodes "finding herself" and figuring things out. That was until I saw her in the bed listening to Jim's message and knew immediately that she was clearly in bed with someone and that it had to be Montoya. Like others have noted, the whole thing just makes no sense. 

 

Barbara was the one who pushed and pushed for Jim to "let her in" even while he kept telling her how dangerous his work was and why he couldn't tell her what was going on. She kept insisting she didn't care because she would be there for him no matter what. Then even after he opens up to her and tells her what's going on and makes her leave, telling her that he needs her away so he doesn't have to be distracted by her safety, she stupidly comes back and even more stupidly goes and tries to reason with a mob boss which naturally led to her being kidnapped and almost getting both her and Jim killed. And then suddenly she's now just too scared and shaken by everything that she must leave and apparently can only find solace in the arms of someone in the same dangerous line of work as Jim. Seriously, I have to agree with others that clearly the writers don't want us, the viewers, to like Barbara. There's just no way. 

 

I really enjoyed the Selina and Bruce scenes but was actually anticipating most of the comments here to hate it, so I'm really surprised so many others seem to enjoy it as well. I think the reason I anticipated a lot of groans is because it did veer a bit too cutesy/tween at times but I thought the two young actors made it work and as others noted, it was very nice to see Bruce actually act like a child. Though I may be alone in this but I actually find his weird little man-child personality rather endearing. 

 

I enjoy Penguin and I think the actor is doing an amazing job with the role but I'm getting a little tired of how much he seems to be winning and everything falling into place for him. It is getting to the point of stretching credulity that this one guy is basically outsmarting and playing all these so called huge criminal bigwigs. Like I called bullshit on Fish saying to "forget Penguin, he wasn't important" in that scene when he comes to see her. With everything Penguin has managed to do and gotten involved with, I can't buy Fish thinking he's no threat at all. This was someone who snitched on her to the Feds, she set up his hit and informed Falcone he was a snitch and yet somehow Penguin managed to escape all that alive. No way I buy Fish not realizing how dangerous he could be. 

 

I have to agree with others about the heavy handedness of Dent. That scene with Lovecraft was way too over the top in my opinion. Although I did have a chuckle at Lovecraft's "WTAF" expression when Dent snapped. The actor was hilarious in that moment but yes, the show can definitely use some subtlety at times. The actor playing Dent was also not very good in my opinion. He looked the part but the performance was kind of hokey in my opinion. Honestly he seemed kind of nutty even when talking to Gordon about his plan. Just a bit too eager and pushy. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Camera One]

I was intrigued by the prospect of Harvey Dent, but I thought he was way over the top too and they were completely unsubtle in the Two-Face foreshadowing.  He clearly already has his own agenda.

 

Just when they were on track to rehabilitating Montoya, they end with that.  They are making no effort into writing for either of those women.  Barbara was barely salvageable as it was, and now I don't think there is any hope.

 

The Bruce/Selina scenes were a bit off.  She seems way too old for him, not to mention experienced, yet they made her seem so innocent in this one.  I did like the scene when they talked about the night of the shooting, but the rest of it was weird, especially when she was aggressively asking if he wanted to kiss her.  It doesn't help that he looks like he's 11.

 

Penguin is succeeding a little too easily.  He's going to be playing everyone by the end of this.

 

Why did they have to bomb the Munitions Factory?  I thought they were going after the vault?  This one had way too many violent deaths of law enforcement/security guards.  

 

The plan to send all the psychiatric inmates to Arkham is just such a disaster.  Are we supposed to be thanking Jim for giving the Mayor that idea?

[Actionmage]

Forgot to add: I loved Allen's big grin in the background, as Dent is outlining The Plan to Gordon! The hook is set, the kool-aid drunk. Allen is ready!

 

Why did they have to bomb the Munitions Factory?

 

To get the explosive that could go through the iron. Nygma's experiments proved that the explosive was made to breech iron.  Also, they are ruthless mobsters who DGAF.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Actionmage

[Oscirus]

In Barbara's defense, she has no idea that Montoya and Bruce are working together. As far as she knows Montoya's still trying to screw over Bruce. Come to think of it, that makes it worst. Defense failed. Are there no women writers out there? How can comic book shows be so problematic in creating realistic non-hateable women? Also  why was that a stinger? Literally nobody was surprised by that scene since you've been telegraphing it since the first show. But yay lesbian scene?

 

I'm already over Penguin being so many steps ahead of everybody. I get that you need to establish how he became the penguin but at least make it challenging for him. Also, I have no idea how Fish rose this high in the organization when she's so damned sloppy.  If I didn't know better I'd think that she wants to be caught.

 

Two face's introduction, eh whatever. You made him look like a naïve goofball with anger control issues. Was that what the writers were going for?

 

Finally, the cat-bat scenes were seriously trying way too hard. Bruce is so stuffy that he swims with a suit on and Cat is a street kid that's so ashamed of her past that she lies about it. If you were to add in a  curmudgeonly wisecracking older person you'd... nvm.

 

The series is watchable but I wouldn't be too mad if I missed a few episodes.

 

Unspoken for is  Spoiler

 

 

A younger kid has been cast as batman's scarecrow though the kid's father will also be scarecrow so Jim can fight one too apparently.

[RealityGal]

In Barbara's defense, she has no idea that Montoya and Bruce are working together. As far as she knows Montoya's still trying to screw over Bruce. Come to think of it, that makes it worst. Defense failed. Are there no women writers out there? How can comic book shows be so problematic in creating realistic non-hateable women? Also  why was that a stinger? Literally nobody was surprised by that scene since you've been telegraphing it since the first show. But yay lesbian scene?

 

I'm already over Penguin being so many steps ahead of everybody. I get that you need to establish how he became the penguin but at least make it challenging for him. Also, I have no idea how Fish rose this high in the organization when she's so damned sloppy.  If I didn't know better I'd think that she wants to be caught.

 

Two face's introduction, eh whatever. You made him look like a naïve goofball with anger control issues. Was that what the writers were going for?

 

Finally, the cat-bat scenes were seriously trying way too hard. Bruce is so stuffy that he swims with a suit on and Cat is a street kid that's so ashamed of her past that she lies about it. If you were to add in a  curmudgeonly wisecracking older person you'd... nvm.

 

The series is watchable but I wouldn't be too mad if I missed a few episodes.

 

 

A younger kid has been cast as batman's scarecrow though the kid's father will also be scarecrow so Jim can fight one too apparently.

I think writing terrible female characters crosses genres.  Women seem so two dimensional.  Either naggy know it all's, wallflowers, badass trying to hard, always right or a mixture of any or all of the above.  I think its why I tend to enjoy female villains because they seem to have more depth.

 

But awww, I think Bruce is cute with his little stuffy suits and sweater vests.  I feel like its part of what makes him so different, if he were a normal kid he would probably reject Cat, but he is so serious.  And I like Cat too.  But I read Babysitters Club back in the day, so I'm okay with a little pre-teen flirting.

Edited November 19, 2014 by RealityGal

[Sandman]

It seems probable to me that Cat is lying about seeing Lovecraft. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would do his own dirty work, first of all. The gunman was facing away from her, and his face was covered, so from what we were shown in the pilot, I don't think it's possible for her to have seen him that clearly. I don't think the writers are overlooking that. I think Cat has her own reasons for identifying Lovecraft as the shooter. (Or it's a big fat retcon.)

 

I don't really have that much trouble with the lack of subtlety on the show. It's not something I look for in a genre show of this kind, I don't think (or from Bruno Heller, to be honest). Also, calling a character "Lovecraft" is only fair, considering how much Batman owes to Lovecraft's stories, including the name "Arkham." It's not like Lovecraft was a writer who prized understatement.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Sandman

[truthaboutluv]

It seems probable to me that Cat is lying about seeing Lovecraft. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would do his own dirty work, first of all.

 

 

She never identified Lovecraft. The description she gave to the sketch artist looks nothing like Lovecraft. Dent just theorized that Lovecraft hired whoever the guy in the sketch is, to murder the Wayans because he never got along with them and it was good for his business to have them killed. That's why his plan to Gordon was that he would show the sketch to Lovecraft to make it known that someone at least saw who he hired and that would be enough to make him or whoever the actual gunman was, nervous enough that they'd slip or make a mistake or start talking to the wrong people. 

 

I do however agree about not entirely buying that Selina saw the guy's face because from what was shown in the pilot, the guy never takes off his mask, he had his back mostly to her as he shot both of Bruce's parents and then he walked away. Not to mention that it was very dark when all this happened. So I can't imagine how she would have gotten a clear picture of the guy's face unless she followed him and it wasn't shown, until he got to a place where he took off the mask. As for her reason for possibly lying about what she saw, I think it's pretty simple in that she figures as long as Gordon believes she can help him with the case, he'll help her and help keep her out of Juvie and foster care, neither of which she wants to go to. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Delphi]

It's actually really common for orphans and foster children to invent stories as to why they were abandoned by their parents, I see nothing wrong with street orphan Selina Kyle doing that.

She was talking to Bruce and made up this huge story so she didn't seem pathetic abd he knew she was lying abd just kind of humored her in what I thought was a sweet scene.

[Sandman]

She never identified Lovecraft. The description she gave to the sketch artist looks nothing like Lovecraft. Dent just theorized that Lovecraft hired whoever the guy in the sketch is, to murder the Waynes because he never got along with them and it was good for his business to have them killed. That's why his plan to Gordon was that he would show the sketch to Lovecraft to make it known that someone at least saw who he hired and that would be enough to make him or whoever the actual gunman was, nervous enough that they'd slip or make a mistake or start talking to the wrong people.

 

Oh. My mistake. I thought Lovecraft kind of looked like the guy in the sketch -- and I might not have been paying close attention when Dent was outlining his brilliant plan. Whoops!

[Kromm]

In Barbara's defense, she has no idea that Montoya and Bruce are working together. As far as she knows Montoya's still trying to screw over Bruce. Come to think of it, that makes it worst. Defense failed. Are there no women writers out there? How can comic book shows be so problematic in creating realistic non-hateable women? Also  why was that a stinger? Literally nobody was surprised by that scene since you've been telegraphing it since the first show. But yay lesbian scene?

You're also presuming Montoya hasn't told her.  If for no other reason Montoya would WANT to tell Barbara she's stopped persecuting Gordon, because she'd want Barbara to think it was because Barbara allowed her to stick her tongue down her throat (and other places possibly).

[Milz]

So except for Catwoman, all the future bad guys (Nygma, Dent, Penguin) are already 15 - 20 yrs older than Bruce Wayne. Batman will need to chase these guys down in Palm Springs, not Gotham.  

 

We met the future Poison Ivy in the premiere and she's about Bruce's age.  I'm waiting for Alfred to chaperone Bruce and Selina on their first teen "date"  to the circus where they see/meet the Flying Graysons. In fact they can have a hokey plot wherein Selina and Bruce save a heavily pregnant Mrs. Grayson from Fish Mooney. The shock sends Mrs. G. into premature labor and Bruce and Selina have to help her deliver the baby.

[Spartan Girl]

 

Nov 17 2014. 9:25 pm

 

The writing for Barbara is terrible.  I can't handle this and I need space...so I am going to run into bed with someone who does the same job and who is fighting against the exact same enemies.

 

WTF are the writers doing with this character?

 

Seriously, it's like they're turning her into every crappy superhero love interest.

 

Oh well.  At least we got to see Bruce and Selina interact.  Now THAT'S a couple I actually care about.

[Dobian]

Barbara has been seriously mishandled.  It would have been one thing if she actually broke up with Gordon over the misunderstanding about Cobblepot, ran to Montoya, and ended up in her bed.  But instead they resolved that, Barbara was back in Gordon's camp again, he was protecting her, told her to leave Gotham for her own safety, she didn't and he saved her life... and then she leaves him a note that she left Gotham when instead she ran to Montoya.  That makes her both a liar and an adultress.  And this on top of the fact that she hid her relationship with Montoya from him in the first place, then assured him that she was over her.  I don't know how you can come back from that and realistically have him trust her ever again, and this is supposed to be the future Mrs. Gordon.

 

The writers obviously got turned on by the whole Barabara/Renee lesbian thing, and couldn't wait to sex up the show with that and maybe boost the ratings.  But now they have to deal with serious consequences from playing out that little bedroom fantasy.

[Kromm]

Barbara has been seriously mishandled.  It would have been one thing if she actually broke up with Gordon over the misunderstanding about Cobblepot, ran to Montoya, and ended up in her bed.  But instead they resolved that, Barbara was back in Gordon's camp again, he was protecting her, told her to leave Gotham for her own safety, she didn't and he saved her life... and then she leaves him a note that she left Gotham when instead she ran to Montoya.  That makes her both a liar and an adultress.  And this on top of the fact that she hid her relationship with Montoya from him in the first place, then assured him that she was over her.  I don't know how you can come back from that and realistically have him trust her ever again, and this is supposed to be the future Mrs. Gordon.

Yes, but she's a Mrs. Gordon who either

dies, has serious marriage troubles and eventual divorce, or just plain leaves her husband and child out of the blue and disappears to another city,

depending on the era of comics.

[Danny Franks]

Seriously, it's like they're turning her into every crappy superhero love interest.

 

Oh well.  At least we got to see Bruce and Selina interact.  Now THAT'S a couple I actually care about.

 

On a platonic level (because otherwise, ew), I really like the pairing of Jim and Selina. They're fun, and they have the perfect semi-antagonistic chemistry that makes for entertaining television. Give me more of those two interacting, and less of Jim having to deal with unfaithful, boring girlfriends and random dirty cops who aren't Bullock.

 

The writers obviously got turned on by the whole Barabara/Renee lesbian thing, and couldn't wait to sex up the show with that and maybe boost the ratings.  But now they have to deal with serious consequences from playing out that little bedroom fantasy.

 

 

I think that's sadly close to what will have happened. 'Hold on, two hot chicks who we've written a pre-existing romantic relationship for? Get 'em into bed! Now! Comic book geeks love that stuff!' Blech.

 

Hopefully, Barbara is already pregnant, and decides to raise her daughter in some other city. Perhaps even without telling Jim he's going to be a father, because that seems about right for the way her mind works. Canon satisfied, bye bye, Barbara.

[Dobian]

Yes, but she's a Mrs. Gordon who either

dies, has serious marriage troubles and eventual divorce, or just plain leaves her husband and child out of the blue and disappears to another city,

depending on the era of comics.

Yeah Batman is a little convoluted when it comes to Barbara Gordon.  There were primarily two characters who were Batwoman, Barbara Gordon and Kate Kane. 

However, Barbara Gordon was James Gordon's daughter and became Oracle after Joker paralyzed her.  Barbara Kean-Gordon was his wife and was not Batwoman; she either dies or they divorced, like you said.  The problem with Gotham is that it is Kate Kane who is the modern Batwoman in the comics and who is a lesbian and romances Montoya.  But in Gotham, Barbara Kean is assuming this role, so I have to assume she will eventually become Batwoman.  Except that would make the timeline a bit out of sync as both Batwoman and Montoya really should be around the same age as Bruce Wayne.  Just as an aside, in the Batman Arkham video games, it is James Gordon's daughter Barabara, as Oracle, who is represented.

 

Considering the path they have chosen, it is quite possible that Barbara stays with Montoya (at least for awhile), or they do the soap opera trope of her bouncing back and forth between Montoya and Gordon like a hot potato.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Dobian

[Kromm]

Yeah Batman is a little convoluted when it comes to Barbara Gordon.  There were primarily two characters who were Batwoman, Barbara Gordon and Kate Kane. 

However, Barbara Gordon was James Gordon's daughter and became Oracle after Joker paralyzed her.  Barbara Kean-Gordon was his wife and was not Batwoman; she either dies or they divorced, like you said.  The problem with Gotham is that it is Kate Kane who is the modern Batwoman in the comics and who is a lesbian and romances Montoya.  But in Gotham, Barbara Kean is assuming this role, so I have to assume she will eventually become Batwoman.  Except that would make the timeline a bit out of sync as both Batwoman and Montoya really should be around the same age as Bruce Wayne.  Just as an aside, in the Batman Arkham video games, it is James Gordon's daughter Barabara, as Oracle, who is represented.

 

Considering the path they have chosen, it is quite possible that Barbara stays with Montoya (at least for awhile), or they do the soap opera trope of her bouncing back and forth between Montoya and Gordon like a hot potato.

Barbara Kean was never Batwoman as far as I know.  Not in any real continuity.  I think there may have been alternate universe stories with that, but not the main DCU.

 

It's the confusion between the names Kean and Kane that makes people think this I think and not really anything else.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Kromm

[Dobian]

I wouldn't expect them to make Barbara Kean Batwoman simply because Batwoman can't predate Batman.  It was Bruce Wayne who invented the whole "Bat" concept.  It's possible she becomes Batwoman years later, but she would have to be at least in her mid-40s by then per this show's timeline.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I too was sure Chekhov's 500-year-old vase was going to break, until I saw Alfred smile.

Chekhov's vase!  too funny.  Yes, I did too.  I really enjoyed the Bruce-Selina interplay, my only problem being the same one I've had from the beginning.  If these kids are already so far developed into what they're going to be, how does this turn into a multi-season show?

 

Aside from the overall miserable writing for Barbara I really hate that they've somehow gone  almost the entire distance with every negative cliche about bisexual women - confused, weak, duplicitous, untrustworthy.   Keeping her former relationship a secret from her male (thus more serious)  fiance - "It was nothing - Renee and I were only together for  a year!"  LIke she just got drunk one night, except it was for a year. And of course she only chooses the chick when it's convenient for her.     The only  nasty trope the writers have managed to pass up is the one where she's pretending to be into girls for her boyfriend's benefit.  Yes I'm bi, since nobody asked.

 

 

No Bullock? *sad panda*

Some, but not enough. Never enough.  Oh, Donal, you infinitely fuckable creature, what I put up with to watch you.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[RealityGal]

Chekhov's vase!  too funny.  Yes, I did too.  I really enjoyed the Bruce-Selina interplay, my only problem being the same one I've had from the beginning.  If these kids are already so far developed into what they're going to be, how does this turn into a multi-season show?

 

Aside from the overall miserable writing for Barbara I really hate that they've somehow gone  almost the entire distance with every negative cliche about bisexual women - confused, weak, duplicitous, untrustworthy.   Keeping her former relationship a secret from her male (thus more serious)  fiance - "It was nothing - Renee and I were only together for  a year!"  LIke she just got drunk one night, except it was for a year. And of course she only chooses the chick when it's convenient for her.     The only  nasty trope the writers have managed to pass up is the one where she's pretending to be into girls for her boyfriend's benefit.  Yes I'm bi, since nobody asked.

 

Some, but not enough. Never enough.  Oh, Donal, you infinitely fuckable creature, what I put up with to watch you.

 

I feel like they have enough time to sneak in the offer of a threesome at some point, if viewership starts to wane.  

 

What is going to be interesting to me is to see how Selina goes from what seems to be a good situation at Wayne Manor and turning into the villain Catwoman.  I want to see how that goes down, right now she seems happy, precocious but with a good heart.  How does she get booted from Wayne Manor?  How does she lose touch with Bruce since she seems like his only friend and someone he would want to have around?  Do they drift apart as Bruce becomes a little older and girls in his own social circle become interested in him?  Do they lose contact after Bruce goes away to college?  And what happens to Selina to make her into Catwoman.  In the movies it was one specific event, and that makes sense, but how was she ever in that situation?