S01.E01: Pilot

[Syndicate]

Love triangles were around long before soap operas. And someone having an ex doesn't mean a love triangle is being established. Nothing about the pilot was soap opera esque

Give it time!  It may become soapy in a way no one wants, although I personally don't care one way or the other.  In any event, several articles which came out back in January described the show like this:  Gotham TV show is a Batman origin story told in "operatic soap" style. 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Syndicate

[Athena]

For a pilot, I enjoyed it. I tend to have low expectations of pilots any way, and this one at least looks good and has a great cast. I really enjoyed Fish, Bullock, and Gordon. I didn't mind the Bruce kid either. Alfred is a bit one note right now. Jada was by far the most entertaining.

 

The dialogue felt really contrived and unnatural in parts though, but on the whole, the pilot was got better towards the end. 

 

I'm somewhere between a casual Batman fan and a diehard comic one. I've read some of major comics/novels and seen almost all the movies. My favourite version will always be DCAU Batman. Since this is a prequel, I can't compare it too much since Batman is not even a teenager here. 

 

I adore Ben McKenzie and was a Ryan Atwood girl back in the day. I'll stick around long enough to see more of him.

[ribboninthesky1]

Love triangles were around long before soap operas. And someone having an ex doesn't mean a love triangle is being established. Nothing about the pilot was soap opera esque

 

To me, comics are basically soap operas, using a different medium, (largely) written by and targeted to (mostly) males, so I'd argue that the very nature of the show is a form of it.  I've never understood why comics (and the resulting TV genre) are presumed superior, whether explicitly or implicitly.  It's all the same wheelhouse of wish fulfillment/fantasy, which is fine. It's entertainment.   

[Milz]

I think it's not a joke.  I remember reading something from an official source stating we would get some sort of hint regarding the Joker in every episode.

Could he have been a beat cop in another city before transferring to Gotham.  Barbara did say she preferred his detective get-up over his uniform.  I'm guessing she meant police uniform not military.

 

Who Montoya?  I was under the impression that the two weren't on the best of terms right now.  Bullock makes more sense since being Gordon's partner he would've most likely have been the last person to see him.

 

Unless you've heard something that I haven't, there's no evidence that this show is part of the Nolan-verse.

 

I seriously doubt we'll ever see Superman on this show.  The closest thing to Superman I would expect is a reference to Metropolis, The Daily Planet and/or Smallville.  And that's fine by me.  On a related note, how do you guys feel about super powers being introduced on the show?

 

At this time Clark Kent is  pre-teen about Bruce Wayne's age (if the writers are following Batman cannon at all). At the most, I could envision the two boys meeting. Just like I could envision Bruce meeting Zatanna or Talia.

[Rick Kitchen]

I was a little confused about how Gordon knew Barbara. They seem like they've been together for a long time if she is talking about marriage, but he just started working at the police station and she seems pretty established in that fancy apartment. Were they dating before he left? Or was he in Gotham (or a nearby city) before he joined the GCPD?

 

There was a bit of conversation between them about how she felt about him in his Army uniform, so they knew each other when he was in the Army.

 

 

Batman: Year One (one of the major inspirations for Batman Begins) has James Gordon recently transferring to Gotham City from the Chicago PD along with Barbara, and shows how he has to adapt to the corruption in the Gotham City PD.  I figure they're going for something similar here - I mean he's made Detective so he's had to have been a cop somewhere for a while. 

 

He's a war hero, not a veteran cop.

[Trini]

He's a war hero, not a veteran cop.

 

Can't he be both? In any case, is it even possible to go from a military career directly to police detective? He has to have some law enforcement experience.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Trini

[shapeshifter]

Wow. Four pages already. Anyway. Honeys, I'm home!

I liked the way it all fit together so smoothly. Who do we thank for that?

More style than substance.

Ah, but what great style!

My uncle collected comic books....

he had a DC comic compendium of secret origins, reprinting the original comics. So the Batman origin was the one from Detective Comics in the 40s(?)....

Fun/cool uncles are a priceless gift. Mine can tell stories that are better than anything you hear on the Tonight Show. And when I was young, he and wife #1 had a tiny store with a ribbon machine. We got to make gorgeous bows with variegated ribbons in all colors.

But I had to buy my own comics.

That was supposed to be funny, wasn't it, when Jada adjusted her wig?

Heigh-ho, heigh-ho, off to work I go!

Edited September 24, 2014 by shapeshifter

[In2You]

To me, comics are basically soap operas, using a different medium, (largely) written by and targeted to (mostly) males, so I'd argue that the very nature of the show is a form of it.  I've never understood why comics (and the resulting TV genre) are presumed superior, whether explicitly or implicitly.  It's all the same wheelhouse of wish fulfillment/fantasy, which is fine. It's entertainment.   

Every drama is not a soap opera. Comic books do contain a good amount of melodrama but melodrama doesn't automatically equal soap opera.

[Snookums]

.

I was worried she might take out the comedian kid as well just for the hell of it while she was on a roll.

 

 

She really should have. That guy overheard the most incriminating conversation/witnessed the most savage beatdown since any random extra on Sons of Anarchy.

 

There was one really glaring continuity error that stood out for me, right in the beginning, when young Selina steals the milk (and very clumsily hooks the wallet--tsk tsk, Selina. The Artful Dodger would be ashamed of you). She clearly steals a full container of milk, but when she goes in the alley and pours it out for the kitty the bottle is just as clearly nearly empty. Very clumsy for a high-values show like this.

[Snookums]

She's a high society woman in a filthy place like Gotham, if the best the writers can come up with is that she had a lesbian relationship with a police woman then they really lack the imagination needed for a project like Gotham. I hope she's not one of those female characters that are defined by the relationship that they're in.

 

 

It's potentially annoying not just for those reasons, but for the obvious--if these two had a past relationship how secret could it be? Barbara clearly hobnobs with the highest echleons and Montoya's a highly placed officer. Their relationship would have been noted, especially by the police force, members of whom probably mercilessly ragged Montoya about her fancy girlfriend. If Jim started dating Montoya's ex the entire department would have exploded with gossip and rumors pretty much instantly. 

[MisterGlass]

This thread went a long way in two days.  I like the pilot, and would rate it around a B.  It was rushed, and felt like a role call, but it had potential.

 

I like the idea of Gordon combating the traditional crime architecture, and in his success making room for the sort of crimes that will demand a Batman.  As another poster commented, it makes sense that he would encounter a significant crime figure like the Penguin in his formative days.  I hope the focus stays on the adult characters.  Fish, Penguin, Bullock, Alfred, Falcone, and Gordon are enough heros and villains to make a series.

 

If over-the-top is permissable anywhere, it must be in comic derived media.  This is positively grounded compared to some of its antecedents (I'm looking at you Adam West Batman).

[Rick Kitchen]

 

Question 5: Why is Barbara "aka Batgirl" being conveyed as Jim Gordon's fiance when she has always been portrayed as his daughter?

 

Barbara was the name of both his daughter and his first wife.

[Rick Kitchen]

.

 

There was one really glaring continuity error that stood out for me, right in the beginning, when young Selina steals the milk (and very clumsily hooks the wallet--tsk tsk, Selina. The Artful Dodger would be ashamed of you). She clearly steals a full container of milk, but when she goes in the alley and pours it out for the kitty the bottle is just as clearly nearly empty. Very clumsy for a high-values show like this.

 

She's a street kid, she probably drank most of it.

[jagfan05]

I posted this as an independent topic but it's not around anymore? Did the moderators delete it?

First off does anyone know a good website that will have a complete recap and written plot outline of everything that happened? I know Wikipedia usually does that with some shows but I didn't see it in full detail for this first episode? That way if you are confused on it it explains what happens on that episode of the show? Not a review but actual plot outline of everything so that way you understand.
 

Question 1: Who planted the evidence on Mario Pepper? Are we supposed to just not know exactly who it was but just think it was someone in the police department? But definitely not Harvey Bullock right? Or did Harvey Bullock know about the set up and was he also part of it with putting the pearls in Mario Pepper's house? Because when Bullock is on the phone with Fish she says she did him a favor? I'm confused?
 

Question 2: So did Carmine Falcone actually hire the assassin that killed Bruce's parents or did he actually not have anything to do with it? I know he set up Mario Pepper but I was still confused on that part?
 

Question 3: From what we can tell is this being set up as the Joker "Jack Napier"? Or Joe Chill?
 

Question 4: Can we tell if this show is going to be based off the comic books storylines or the movies, specifically what storyline so all the characters and plot match up?
 

Question 5: Why is Barbara "aka Batgirl" being conveyed as Jim Gordon's fiance when she has always been portrayed as his daughter?

[truthaboutluv]

Question 1: Who planted the evidence on Mario Pepper? Are we supposed to just not know exactly who it was but just think it was someone in the police department? But definitely not Harvey Bullock right? Or did Harvey Bullock know about the set up and was he also part of it with putting the pearls in Mario Pepper's house? Because when Bullock is on the phone with Fish she says she did him a favor? I'm confused?

 

 

Fish planted the evidence on Mario Pepper. Oswald explained exactly what happened when he ratted her out to the Major Crimes detectives, and she later confirmed it when she kicked his ass after Harvey told her one of her people ratted her out. Because as she pointed out, only Oswald saw her with the necklace so he's the only one who would have known what she did. There is a question mark of whether Harvey knew but when asked by Gordon, he said he didn't. Toss up whether he's telling the truth or not. 

 

Question 2: So did Carmine Falcone actually hire the assassin that killed Bruce's parents or did he actually not have anything to do with it? I know he set up Mario Pepper but I was still confused on that part?

 

 

I imagine the answer of who killed Bruce's parents is meant to be a season long, possibly series long thing so I don't think we were meant to know for certain one way, certainly not after one episode. Falcone and organized crime in some way certainly seem the most likely suspects but I guess it's just one of those things you would have to watch the series to find out.

 

Which is pretty much what I'd say to all your other questions. It was only one episode, and so many of these things won't reveal themselves until later. I guess the show creators may know and hopefully have an idea where they're going with the show, but I highly doubt they'll reveal every single thing they'll be doing especially as it's a series where plans may change. 

Edited September 25, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[darkestboy]

I think it will be someone new for the show in relation to the Waynes murder invented for the show - so probably neither Napier, nor Chill.

 

I'm curious if we'll see that comedian guy again as well. Or did Fish have him taken care given what he was seeing and hearing between his terrible performance.

Edited September 25, 2014 by darkestboy

[Milz]

 

That was supposed to be funny, wasn't it, when Jada adjusted her wig?

 

Yeah, that was supposed to be funny. I think Fish's character is a spoof of movie mobsters.

 

I imagine the answer of who killed Bruce's parents is meant to be a season long, possibly series long thing so I don't think we were meant to know for certain one way, certainly not after one episode.

 

 

If they are following Batman canon,  Bruce Wayne doesn't find out until he's been the Batman for a number of years. I can't imagine that Gordon will find out and not tell Bruce based upon how they are developing the Gordon-Bruce relationship at this point.

[shapeshifter]

I posted this as an independent topic but it's not around anymore? Did the moderators delete it?

First off does anyone know a good website that will have a complete recap and written plot outline of everything that happened?...

Previously.tv boards try to be organized and tidy, which means just one thread per episode, unlike, say, the wild wild west of IMDb's boards. I would have expected your thread to be combined with this one, but maybe not. 

The first page of the episode thread has a link to a very detailed recap (see the blue button in the mid-page post). 

[Chip]

the thread was hidden by one of the other mods until I (lead mod on Gotham) had a chance to get here and check the reported post. By time I moved the topic, the question had been repeated here already in the Pilot topic. I PM'd the original author, but before I noticed the posting here.

 

chip

[Lokiberry]

I posted this as an independent topic but it's not around anymore? Did the moderators delete it?

First off does anyone know a good website that will have a complete recap and written plot outline of everything that happened? I know Wikipedia usually does that with some shows but I didn't see it in full detail for this first episode? That way if you are confused on it it explains what happens on that episode of the show? Not a review but actual plot outline of everything so that way you understand.

 

Question 1: Who planted the evidence on Mario Pepper? Are we supposed to just not know exactly who it was but just think it was someone in the police department? But definitely not Harvey Bullock right? Or did Harvey Bullock know about the set up and was he also part of it with putting the pearls in Mario Pepper's house? Because when Bullock is on the phone with Fish she says she did him a favor? I'm confused?

 

Question 2: So did Carmine Falcone actually hire the assassin that killed Bruce's parents or did he actually not have anything to do with it? I know he set up Mario Pepper but I was still confused on that part?

 

Question 3: From what we can tell is this being set up as the Joker "Jack Napier"? Or Joe Chill?

 

Question 4: Can we tell if this show is going to be based off the comic books storylines or the movies, specifically what storyline so all the characters and plot match up?

 

Question 5: Why is Barbara "aka Batgirl" being conveyed as Jim Gordon's fiance when she has always been portrayed as his daughter?

 

Question's been answered. Q2, I don't really know  if Falcone had anything to do with it; Jim Gordon didn't think so. Q3, I absolutely don't believe that the Joker is going to turn out to be the killer. The only place I've ever seen that was in the Burton films. Everywhere else, Joe Chill has been the killer (either as a lowlife thug, or a paid assassin). Also, the actor was too heavyset to match the traditional portrayal of Mr. J.

 

Q4: I think they're taking pieces of stories from everyone. The look and feel of the show, is a bit like the Batman animated series from the 90's. Selina's costume look inspired from Darwyn Cooke.

 

Q5: that's not Batgirl, it's her mother, also named Barbara.

[Danny Franks]

I thought this was a decent pilot. Not great, but good enough to get me to keep watching.

 

Ben MacKenzie was pretty good as Gordon, and exuded the gruff decency that Gordon has always had. I like the tie in to Batman: Year One, with Gordon as the new cop in town, the idealistic guy who doesn’t want to bow to the ‘norm’ of corruption in Gotham.

 

He has a strong enough presence to headline this show, and I liked the dynamic that was emerging between him and Bullock. Bullock, the “lackadaisical”, shiftless cop who does whatever it takes to get through the shift, whether that means drinking on duty or accepting bribes and cosying up to criminals. I like that he wasn’t ultimately shown to be a good guy in the end. He’s not a bad guy, but he’s still neck deep in the institutionalised corruption of the city, and wants Gordon to join him there.

 

It’ll be interesting to see that duelling dynamic between Gordon’s ideals and Bullock’s grim realities.

The rest of the characters were more like cameo appearances than anything else. Selina was slinky and looks like she’ll be fun, Ivy Pepper (still a stupid name) felt really pointless. I liked Eddie Nygma and the Penguin.

 

Bruce Wayne? That should be the end of his involvement with the show. It makes no sense to me, narratively, that they’re going to keep him as a focal point now. His parents were murdered, he’s “conquering his fears” and dropped hints about his future plans to avenge their deaths. That’s it. There’s no more for him to do for the next fifteen or so years. Why is he going to be a regular? It just sets the show up as the ‘When Are We Gonna See Batman? Hour’, which is not a good thing.

 

Barbara felt pretty pointless as well. Sure, her history with Montoya adds a level of intrigue, but ultimately I don’t see how they can avoid her being tangential to the storyline, most weeks.

 

Gotham City itself had a cool vibe. Not gothic, particularly, but you got the sense of a city on the downturn. Derelict streets and ragged sweatshops, criminality rife. That’s what Gotham should be, not the gleaming metropolis of Nolan’s last two movies. And I did like the cinematography, which gave the show a very claustrophobic, unsettling feel.

 

The storyline of the episode itself got a bit too twisty turny at the end, there. Serious Crimes think Gordon is crooked, Gordon thinks Fish set him up, Fish decides to kill him, Bullock goes to save him and gets Fish to agree, but Fish decides to kill them both. Then Falcone saves the day because he was friends with Gordon’s dad, but he still wants Gordon to tie himself to them by killing Penguin, which Gordon doesn't do, instead faking the murder.

 

I agree that the easter eggs and the 'geddit? This is a Batman show, with Batman characters. Did you catch that?' hints were more than a little heavy handed. The writers need to dial that stuff back, and just try and build Gotham organically, as a city where there are plenty of normal criminals as well.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Danny Franks

[webruce]

The robbing and murder scene of Dr. Thomas and Martha Wayne was well shown. Young Master Bruce did a good job as well. Wondering who the shinny shoed murderer is? Can't remember if comics ever told. Didn't check Bullocks shoes, lol. I like Alfred Pennyworth, Pertwee should be a future Dr. Who, like his dad was. Also in one of the Batman cartoon series, Alfred battled the Penguin,while Batman was on another case. Maybe some how that could be worked into this series for one episode? To show that Alfred isn't just a servant? Even in the '60's Batman series he showed his deftness at fighting with his umbrella.

I liked how James solved the prisoner with the cops gun and hostage. All the other officers had a gun on him, and James went in and stopped him. Then Harvey Bullock telling him that they had it handled. I thought it funny that James called Harvey Lackadaisical, lol. He does fit that look.

I kinda wished that they hadn't shown Harvey to be in cahoots with Fish Mooney so soon. There should have been that grey area. He's a cop but he might get and do favors for Mob leaders like Fish. But it isn't clear. Now I know that with Mario Pepper and the necklace, they had to show he was framed to set up the "Gordon won't stop until he brings the Wayne's murderer to justice" angle. But to have Bullock come right out as a dirty cop and other cops and government employees are crooked is a tough road for Gordon to travel. But with how Fish had Butch Gilzean string up both Jim and Harvey, maybe Harvey won't be so eager to help her? You see his "influence" didn't matter with her. Will be interesting to see which side Captain Sarah Essen, Detectives Renee Montoya, and Crispus Allen fall on. Mayor Aubrey James, probably looks the other way at times. Curious to why Major Case don't get along with Harvey? Do they suspect he's dirty?

Hope characters like Sgt. Tannembaum, Butch Gilzean,and the Desk Sergent aren't written out anytime soon. They needs these small constants to make things more believable.

Wonder what secret Renee Montoya and Barbara Kean have between them? Hope it isn't dropped anytime soon. Someone suggested a bi relationship in the past. But it could be anything. Didn't catch what Barbara's job is. Did Barbara call her Victoria once? Is that a middle name, or something? Or maybe Renee is her middle name?

Did like Carmine Falcone and his team coming in and stopping the slaughter. His talk to Jim about his father being the DA.and the understanding they had was interesting. "I'm a business man and you can't have organized crime with out law and order!" I can see in the future Carmine and Fish bumping heads, and probably Oswald doing things to make one think the other was behind it.

Yes, maybe the Pilot did put in to many clues already to who Oswald Cobblepot, Edward Nygma, Selina Kyle, and Ivy Peppers will become, but hopefully as the series develops they will have smaller more subtle clues. But please don't water down the little neuonces of each character. It happens on to many shows. A person starts out liking say hard rock(Greg-CSI) which rubs his boss(Grissom-Classical) the wrong way. Over the years you can't tell what his taste is and he also tamed other parts like hair do, etc. So please don't dilute the different nuances of each character.

Not sure why Oswald killed the fisherman? Was he upset, frustrated or hungry? Was it a fish sandwich?
It is an interesting story line. Hope they can keep it that way. But Harvey and James have to be more careful with the crooks they p- off.

Edited September 26, 2014 by webruce

[Kel Varnsen]

I like that he wasn’t ultimately shown to be a good guy in the end. He’s not a bad guy, but he’s still neck deep in the institutionalised corruption of the city, and wants Gordon to join him there.

That is a good point, and I am glad they didn't make Bullock end up being the gruff looking cop with a heart of gold. I mean they could have just as easily made it so that rescued Gordon because deep down he cares about his partner. But they didn't. He rescued him because he either likes or at least just knows he is stuck as a cop in Gotham in this system. But if Fish kills his partner he doesn't fit in that system any more because if he investigates the murder he has to be a legit cop who doesn't work with the criminals. If he ignores it, I am not sure he can really be a cop anymore and show his face to other police. 

[mtlchick]

 

They'd be crazy to kill off Jada Pinkett Smith.

 

Oh, I think she'll be here for entire first season, at least. Probably longer.

 

Personal story that ties into this: one of the bodyguards for New Kids on the Block (yes, laugh so you can get it out of the way) is covering Jada on the show and he knows he's covering her

for the full year we talked in June.

 

[Trini]

 

Was it a fish sandwich?

 

It was not, and that disappointed me!

[Sandman]

Bullock, pain in his the “lackadaisical”, shiftless cop who does whatever it takes to get through the shift, whether that means drinking on duty or accepting bribes and cosying up to criminals. I like that he wasn’t ultimately shown to be a good guy in the end. He’s not a bad guy, but he’s still neck deep in the institutionalised corruption of the city, and wants Gordon to join him there.

I think Bullock was shown pretty unequivocally to be a bad cop, actually. He didn't save Gordon for ethical or sentimental reasons, but purely pragmatic ones; either because cleaning up the resulting mess would be a pain, or because allowing Mooney's, er, Gooneys to do him in might expose Bullock's own complicity. It seems pretty clear to me that Bullock has killed to protect himself or benefit his relationship with Mooney. And it's not like he offered Gordon a choice about doing away with Cobblepot. Gordon was going to kill Cobblepot, or Bullock was going to kill both of them. Bullock seemed relieved that Gordon was going to play along, but I doubt it was out of any particular affection for young Jim.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Sandman

[Danny Franks]

I think Bullock was shown pretty unequivocally to be a bad cop, actually. He didn't save Gordon for ethical or sentimental reasons, but purely pragmatic ones; either because cleaning up the resulting mess would be a pan, or because allowing Mooney's, er, Gooneys to do him in might expose Bullock's own complicity. It seems pretty clear to me that Bullock has killed to protect himself or benefit his relationship with Mooney. And it's not like he offered Gordon a choice about doing away with Cobblepot. Gordon was going to kill Cobblepot, or Bullock was going to kill both of them. Bullock seemed relieved that Gordon was going to play along, but I doubt it was out of any particular affection for young Jim.

 

If you take what Bullock said at face value, then yeah, he only saved Gordon's life out of a sense of pragmatism. But I took a lot of that as 'I don't care at all. Not a bit' bluster from a guy whose conscience has been pricked. It's as tropey as the gruff cop with a heart of gold, but it's still a theme that works pretty well.

 

I didn't really buy his reasoning anyway. If his partner was murdered on duty, and Bullock wasn't with him, I'm fairly sure that Bullock would be allowed nowhere near the resulting investigation, either because he was a material witness/suspect or because he would be considered too emotionally involved.

 

And asking Gordon to kill Penguin at the end was similarly couched in bluster of self preservation, but I think Donal Logue invested the character with enough empathy that I could see he wanted Gordon to do the 'smart' thing so he would be safe.

 

There's a difference, in this sort of show, between a bad man and a bad cop. Yes, Bullock is a bad cop, but as was alluded to in the show, it's not because he's a bad human being. It's because he has taken the path of least resistance. And I expect his redemption to be a running theme of the show. Again, it's a familiar trope, but I think it's a good one.

[foreverevolving]

 

There's a difference, in this sort of show, between a bad man and a bad cop. Yes, Bullock is a bad cop, but as was alluded to in the show, it's not because he's a bad human being. It's because he has taken the path of least resistance. And I expect his redemption to be a running theme of the show. Again, it's a familiar trope, but I think it's a good one.

I might be mistaken, but assuming they continue with the comics evolution isn't Bolluck 

a bad guy?

[Danny Franks]

I might be mistaken, but assuming they continue with the comics evolution isn't Bolluck 

a bad guy?

 

In the Post-Crisis comics, Bullock is pretty much as I described him, I think. A cop who is not averse to taking matters into his own hands, who has a reputation for being unduly tough and harsh, and who mixes with the criminal fraternity. But he is, essentially, a man who wants to do the right thing, even if his methods are sometimes wrong, and an ally of Gordon.

 

What he may be in the New 52, I have no idea, because I can't read that shit.

[Happytobehere]

The episode was okay, but my initial concerns of too many Batman characters being on the table. I liked JPS, but I just can't past the "Why should I care, her character is not going to make it." I know anything can happen and the comic strip can make Fish a cannon character but until she becomes cannon, I just can't allow myself to be one invested.

[ribboninthesky1]

Personal story that ties into this: one of the bodyguards for New Kids on the Block (yes, laugh so you can get it out of the way) is covering Jada on the show and he knows he's covering her

for the full year we talked in June.

They've already shot the entire season? Guess I need to google the number of episodes.

[Sandman]

If you take what Bullock said at face value, then yeah, he only saved Gordon's life out of a sense of pragmatism. But I took a lot of that as 'I don't care at all. Not a bit' bluster from a guy whose conscience has been pricked. It's as tropey as the gruff cop with a heart of gold, but it's still a theme that works pretty well.

I hadn't considered this, but it's certainly a possibility. I'm not familiar with the character from the comics (I stopped reading well before Crisis On Infinite Earths -- I feel somehow I should hang my head at admitting that -- to say nothing of the New 52) so I wasn't aware of his becoming an ally of Gordon's; I read Logue's performance as more literal, where the path of least resistance for Bullock had already become a long slide into turpitude, but I may have to be more alert to some nuance.

Then again, if Gotham's system is so corrupt that rubbing out the proto-Penguin is a viable option, I doubt cooking the investigation into his partner's unfortunate demise would give Bullock much difficulty, if it came to that.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sandman

[thuganomics85]

I probably need to re-watch the episode, but my impression was that Bullock didn't save Gordon just for pragmatic reasons.  At least the way Donal Logue plays him, this Bullock comes off like a cop who is corrupt on certain levels and doesn't rock the boat, but does truly believe that the "ends justify the means."  I'm sure he has killed people, but only various criminals, which, yeah, not good, but in TV-land, it makes him different from other bad guys.  But, when Barbara told him Jim was missing, I thought his reaction seemed like there was some actually concern for Jim's well-being, and not just being concern Jim was fucking things up for them.

 

As for what he think's about Gordon, again, judging from my impression of Donal's performance, I got the sense that Bullock does respect Jim on some level, underneath the bluster and annoyance.  Like the scene with Oswald, when he told Gordon that if he didn't do it, he would have to kill both of them, I thought Bullock looked like he really didn't want to do it, and, if anything, he would almost want Gordon to take him down first, if that came to it.

[flyingdi]

I thought parts of it were decent. Gordon, Bullock, and Alfred were good. Penguin was awesome. Selina and Bruce were okay. Carmine Falcone was cast waaaay better than he was in the movie. It seemed a little too early for the introduction of Riddler and Ivy.

Overall I couldn't escape the feeling I saw this in the 90s when it was called LA Confidential.

[Sandman]

There is a certain resemblance between Russell Crow and Ben McKenzie, after all.

[Danielg342]

I thought things kind of laboured through the episode, and some plot points seemed contrived to fit later stories (it removes the tension knowing that James Gordon wouldn't kill The Penguin at the end), but I thought, overall, there's some potential here. Donal Logue and Ben McKenzie really killed it, as did Robin Lord Taylor (The Penguin). I also thought Jada Pinkett Smith did pretty well as Fish Mooney, although she did go over the top at some points (and I gotta wonder about Mooney's taste in comedy...that standup act sucked).

 

Things I didn't like (or hope improves): Sarah Essen being the Captain (seems like everyone who is a "superior" to the main cast is female, which is becoming a cliche), how little Sean Pertwee had to do as Alfred and the one dimensional characters in the Major Crimes Unit (not that I disagree with the plot element- the portrayal of the MCU seemed to show them as having a fixation with screwing over Gordon and Harvey Bullock without explaining "why", and I want to learn "why").

 

Overall, it's a pretty nice start. I'll come back to it, methinks.

[Syndicate]

Bullock is corrupt and I like it.  He threatened his partner's life if he didn't kill Mooney's underling at Falcone's request, and he's tied to the ruthless Mooney, almost romantically.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Syndicate

[Kel Varnsen]

I didn't really buy his reasoning anyway. If his partner was murdered on duty, and Bullock wasn't with him, I'm fairly sure that Bullock would be allowed nowhere near the resulting investigation, either because he was a material witness/suspect or because he would be considered too emotionally involved.

In the real world that would be totally true. In a more realistic cop show world (law and order) that might be true (although probably not). In the crazy, over the top world of Gotham I don't believe that for a second.  I can pretty easily picture the department bosses telling him to do whatever he needs to do to find the killer. At the very least the other corrupt cops, or the ones who just think that cops can do whatever they want would be asking Bullock why he is letting some dirtbags get away with killing his partner.

[Perfect Xero]

One thing that bugs a little was Gordon and Bullock saying that they killed an "innocent" man.

 

The guy had emptied a clip at him and was about to stab Gordon with a chef's knife.

 

Sure, he was probably reacting like that because he realized he was being framed and would have been murdered in lockup, but it wasn't an unjustified shooting.

[Danny Franks]

In the real world that would be totally true. In a more realistic cop show world (law and order) that might be true (although probably not). In the crazy, over the top world of Gotham I don't believe that for a second.  I can pretty easily picture the department bosses telling him to do whatever he needs to do to find the killer. At the very least the other corrupt cops, or the ones who just think that cops can do whatever they want would be asking Bullock why he is letting some dirtbags get away with killing his partner.

 

I guess. But the excuse that Bullock needed to save Gordon to save himself felt pretty flimsy to me. Like I said, I don't think Donal Logue played it as though he was being honest, and I don't think the writing intended him to. It just felt like he was coming up with an 'acceptable' reason for caring about his partner.

 

One thing that bugs a little was Gordon and Bullock saying that they killed an "innocent" man.

The guy had emptied a clip at him and was about to stab Gordon with a chef's knife.

 

 

That bugged me too. They had reason to suspect the guy, so went to speak to him, and he ran. Then he started firing a gun at them, then he was about to stab a police officer with a knife. Innocent of murdering the Waynes? Sure. But not innocent of the rest of it, so Bullock would have been either a hero for catching the Waynes' killer, or a hero for saving his partner's life. 

[Milz]

One thing that bugs a little was Gordon and Bullock saying that they killed an "innocent" man.

 

 

Perhaps Gordon meant innocent in terms of murdering the Waynes? I thought they mentioned a parole violation or a probation violation and that was when he split down the fire escape.

[larapu2000]

I thought the kid actor playing Bruce was actually pretty good, especially in the last scene with Gordon.  And I just really love the laying down of the foundation for the later relationship between these two characters, it's so satisfying in so many ways.

 

I didn't realize until I came here that the medical examiner was E.Nigma, in fact, I thought the actor cast was kind of dead ringer and styled similarly to Cillian Murphy, so my mind jumped to thinking he was future Scarecrow.  I didn't catch that they called him by his name.

 

Is Catween stalking Bruce because she's invested in his story, or wants to knock off Wayne Manor?  I kind of like that I'm not sure.

 

I thought all of the casting was pretty great, with the exception of Barbara.  There's something strange about her jaw.  That's a shallow thing to say, but it's just weird to me.

[FurryFury]

God, what a cliché storm. Nothing was unexpected, everything was predictable. And I generally like Ben McKenzie, but Gordon was boring as hell. Nothing interesting about the character.

 

I found Fish Mooney the most interesting character, but not by far, and Sean Pertwee the best actor (despite not having many scenes). I definitely don't think the decision to include younger version of future villains/heroes was the right one... hell, I don't think the decision to make this a prequel was the right one. I'd take a Gotham Central show over this any day.

[Danny Franks]

 

I found Fish Mooney the most interesting character, but not by far, and Sean Pertwee the best actor (despite not having many scenes). I definitely don't think the decision to include younger version of future villains/heroes was the right one... hell, I don't think the decision to make this a prequel was the right one. I'd take a Gotham Central show over this any day.

 

I think young Catwoman was a great idea. At least, as I originally envisaged, with her as a delinquent little thief, with a lengthy relationship with the GCPD. I wanted to see her and Bullock insulting each other, and her being thoroughly unrepentant about thieving. I'm not really interested in her following Kid Bruce Wayne around with big, yearning eyes. 

 

Ivy is pointless, and I don't see how she'll ever become otherwise. It'll take some real twists to get her into Bruce Wayne's sphere, and she is of no value to any of the regular adult characters.

 

And Bruce, as I've maintained from the start, should have been used only as the pilot episode case of the week, to set the scene that this is Gotham City. Him as a regular is baffling to me.

[Lokiberry]

I don't think we'll see Ivy again. She was just an easter egg to to get the comic fans excited. I do expect to see plenty more of Selina, and at some point interacting with Bruce. Perhaps she could help him slip Alfred's leash, and teach him about life on the streets. I hope we get to see some of young Bruce's journey towards becoming Batman.

[Syndicate]

I do wonder what these kiddie characters will bring to what seems to be, for the most part, an adult-themed show.  I'm hoping that their presence doesn't make things too light-hearted going forward.  I'm not all that familiar with the Batman universe, but I've been lurking around the internet and I'm amazed at how many characters exist in this fictional world.  There's a number of serial killer type characters in this world among various others.  One in particular, who goes by the name of Victor Zsasz, caught my eye.  He kills his victims by slitting their throats and then leaving them in lifelike poses. He also crossed paths with the Penguin in a Gotham City casino.  He gambled away everything he owned and lost it all to the Penguin. There's a lot that this show can work with if they borrow from the comics/movies.

[NorthstarATL]

 

They'd be crazy to kill off Jada Pinkett Smith.  She's the best thing about this show, and it's nice to see a minority woman in charge.  I love the fact that she's also so physically small and yet unafraid to take on men so much bigger than she is.  I really hope she wasn't just a hook to get people to start watching and then she's gone fairly soon.  If they are smart, they will find a way to keep her around.

 

 

 

Fal-cone-ee would be the more authentic Italian way to pronounce this presumably Italian name.  I'm assuming he's Italian given his first name is Carmine.  

 

Think "Capone".

[Turkish]

 

I'm actually not convinced that Barbara's big secret is that she is bisexual (she's definitely not a lesbian because she's shown enjoying sex with Gordon quite a lot). Yes, that's somewhat implied in what Renee Montoya said, and that may be bpart of it. But in this day and age, why would Jim care if Barbara had a girlfriend in the past and why would Montoya think that's worth using? Something about the whole scene implied to me that Montoya knew something else about Barbara's past. Her actual words were simply, "Does he know you?" Montoya is a cop. Maybe Barbara is a criminal. Maybe her wealth is ill-gotten. There's no reason her secret has to be ONLY that she and Montoya were romantically involved in the past.

I think it might be both or that she has some other secret as well. I don't think Barbara being bisexual is going to piss Jim off at all. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he already knows that. I'm thinking Barbara has an even bigger secret and Renee knows what that is. The preview show I watched seemed to imply that their is more to Barbara than what Jim is aware of and her having a relationship with Renee is likely the least of it. I'm betting money now that she has ties to Falcone or some other criminal in town. 

 

 

It's potentially annoying not just for those reasons, but for the obvious--if these two had a past relationship how secret could it be? Barbara clearly hobnobs with the highest echleons and Montoya's a highly placed officer. Their relationship would have been noted, especially by the police force, members of whom probably mercilessly ragged Montoya about her fancy girlfriend. If Jim started dating Montoya's ex the entire department would have exploded with gossip and rumors pretty much instantly.

Just because they had a previous relationship doesn't mean anybody had to know about it. They were likely not "out" about their relationship and kept it on the down low. If my memory is correct Renee Montoya was closeted in the comics until she was publicly outed by someone. I forget who but it was a major character. And her family was deeply religious, didn't approve of her sexual orientation, and disown her. I suspect the show will follow the same storyline route so Montoya is likely not out to anyone on the police force. 

[Actionmage]

Also, Montoya was the worst, "I got a tip from an possibly insane, self serving source implicating a fellow cop who I barely know and have done nothing to investigate it, what should I do first? I KNOW, I'LL GO TELL HIS FIANCE!"

^This. I mean, you're a Major Crimes detective, in a widely-known corrupt city and PD, and you just got intel from a criminal mover & shaker's right hand boy. So it's unimpeachable, Divine Being's Truth? So you run it by your old friend with nothing to actually substantiate that claim, sure that you won't be questioned by Gordon's now-fiancé? Really, Det. Montoya? Then being accusatory to Gordon when he is understandably irritated/pissed off that you are spreading this bit of unsubstantiated rumor as fact? Someone needs to get off their high horse. If Harvey is correct, that no one's clean, then Crispus and Renee need to back off and/or actually be smarter than they were in this episode.

 

I liked that Edward sparked at Gordon's off-handed, no-big-deal reply to the riddle. Gordon may have a groupie, in his future if not from then. Harvey will be thrilled. *g*

 

My immediate thought about Barbara was like someone upthread said; what if Babs is from one of the Families? Even if Barbara and Renee were a thing, why would it have to be when Montoya was a cop and not before?  This is just the pilot, there has to be something left for the other dozen episodes to cover. I am anxious too, but  what I take away is that folks are looking forward to finding stuff out, which is a positive.

 

I believe that the younger cast's characters have a great chance to play with their characters' history, Bruce to maybe a lesser extent. The villains get to fill-in bit that haven't been explored much, if at all. The show isn't claiming to be the absolute version, so it's all in good, messy fun. Why Bruce would be interested in girls in the weeks after witnessing his parents' senseless murder escapes me. He doesn't seem interested in much currently, so rumbles of Love Triangles for him seems premature, to me.

 

How Gordon keeps up the pretense of Cobblepot's death has me curious and waiting for Monday! ( Also, how Fish will feel about Jim and Harvey  offingsomeone who was "like a son"? Traitorous, yes, but someone she apparently liked.) 

[Camera One]

Also, Montoya was the worst, "I got a tip from an possibly insane, self serving source implicating a fellow cop who I barely know and have done nothing to investigate it, what should I do first? I KNOW, I'LL GO TELL HIS FIANCE!"

 

I got the impression Montoya was either jealous of Jim, or she was (over)protective of Barbara, so she jumped the gun.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Camera One