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S02.E06: Dreadnought

AnimeMania

By AnimeMania
in The Diplomat

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txhorns79

txhorns79

(edited)

I'll say upfront that yes, it is completely ridiculous that Hal managed to kill the President with his news about the VP.  It makes a great twist, but it is also very silly.  Also, by the end of the season, how much actual time has passed since Hal was blown up?  For someone who went through extremely traumatic surgery, it felt like he's almost recovered in just a couple of weeks time.

Also, is it wrong that I feel like the criticism we sometimes hear about Kate, that she is out of her depth as Ambassador, is right? 

Allison Janney was excellent.  So much scheming and she really did run rings around Kate.  I'm curious how it will work out next season.  

Edited by txhorns79
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Good Queen Jane

Good Queen Jane

So if Grace is now president, is Billie out? And will Kate be recalled as Ambassador? Or will Kate keep her position to buy her silence? Kate better up her game because right now both Grace and Margaret have been out maneuvering her.
 

The sight of all the Secret Service agents ( I assume) running out to protect the new President was a great visual.

  • Like 11
dwmarch

dwmarch

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Also, is it wrong that I feel like the criticism we sometimes hear about Kate, that she is out of her depth as Ambassador, is right? 

I would have to rewatch both seasons to confirm but I also have a feeling that everything the entire US team has done to try to help has had the exact opposite effect. Having said that, I may be suffering from confirmation bias knowing that this show shares DNA with Homeland. Carrie's CIA in Homeland were experts in Making Things Worse and Carrie was the absolute vanguard of this.

  • Like 2
txhorns79

txhorns79

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

I would have to rewatch both seasons to confirm but I also have a feeling that everything the entire US team has done to try to help has had the exact opposite effect.

It does feel like they are always a step behind, or being played by someone they should obviously not trust.  As a side note, I did appreciate Grace pointing out to Kate that she looked like a complete mess.  Kate needs someone to tell her every now and then that it's okay to comb her hair, and not look like she slept in her clothes.   

  • Like 15
LaDuchesse

LaDuchesse

(edited)

Over the last few episodes, it seems like Kate bounces around to eventually agree with the person with whom she last speaks. I would like her to have more independent thought and agency next season. Unless that is a conscious character choice. I especially wish Hal wouldn’t somehow always have the right answer, which of course is different than Kate’s initial thought. As it is, she’s not that much better than Trowbridge.

ETA. Actually, I am offended by the portrayal of Kate (at least this season, maybe it was better last season). Hal seems to know everything, have all the secret facts, the right strategy, etc., and Kate eventually always does what Hal says she should do. In addition to my observation above, I think maybe I do not respect Kate, which I don’t think the show is going for. 

Edited by LaDuchesse
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mrsbagnet

mrsbagnet

(edited)
On 11/3/2024 at 1:15 AM, LaDuchesse said:

Over the last few episodes, it seems like Kate bounces around to eventually agree with the person with whom she last speaks. I would like her to have more independent thought and agency next season.

At this point, I don't understand how Kate has this job at all. She is constantly being led around by the nose by someone: Eidra, Hal, Roylin, the VP, and even the PM sometimes. The only people she shows authority with are Austin, Stuart, and the PM, and they all successfully push back when they get sick of her. With Hal she says mean shit to him, but that's weakness, not power.

I really did not like seeing Austin constantly bowing to other people's will this season. Kate and embassy staff repeatedly summoned him, and the PM and his wife were so disrespectful (though they are that way with everyone). He is an important person with a big job. The PM is his boss, okay, but who TF is Kate to be giving him orders?

Also, I get that Stuart is reeling from their breakup and his injury, but he needs to give Eidra some space. Can't they talk when they're not on duty?

Edited by mrsbagnet
  • Like 7
A.Ham

A.Ham

(edited)
22 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I did not expect that ending. 

Right? Someone needs to make a gif of Keri Russell's reaction at the beginning of the episode, when her character learned that the president wasn't aware of the VP's involvement in the explosion. Her WTF exclamation was perfect. And similar to the reaction I had at the end of the show.

Edited by A.Ham
Punctuation
  • Like 6
Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

On 11/2/2024 at 12:54 AM, txhorns79 said:

I'll say upfront that yes, it is completely ridiculous that Hal managed to kill the President with his news about the VP.

Ridiculous is the only way to describe it. Like Hal told him and he just keeled over and with a few minutes they got a doctor to pronounce him dead? Not taking him to a hospital to try and resuscitate him? It's probably a good thing they didn't show it since it would make me laugh.

  • Like 6
Zaffy

Zaffy

(edited)

I did enjoy this season (I honestly can't remember if 1st season was better since it was quite a while ago) but I also think the writing was weak.
During the whole thing, it felt like if I was watching a serious version of "Veep" or the "Thick of it" (especially every time the English PM was talking, usually insulting everything and everyone) and when  the couples were arguing I  had "Moonlighting" vibes.  And the end of the season was SO VEEP that I started giggling.

On a serious note, the  whole "its ok for you to get sacrificed when the American need to save the world" makes me puke.
And even more seriously, why everyone thinks, or rather uses the argument, that the Russians want to conquer the whole world? I just can't accept this as an excuse for anything. 

Edited by Zaffy
KittyQ

KittyQ

On 11/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, Good Queen Jane said:

So if Grace is now president, is Billie out? And will Kate be recalled as Ambassador? Or will Kate keep her position to buy her silence? Kate better up her game because right now both Grace and Margaret have been out maneuvering her.
 

The sight of all the Secret Service agents ( I assume) running out to protect the new President was a great visual.

So many questions! Maybe Grace would want Kate to be VP (she'll need a new VP, after all!). Or maybe she's ready to dump Kate (and Hal) in favor of someone easier to control, even in England. And maybe someone will "take care" of Margaret before that story gets out.

Agree, that visual was fabulous! 

  • Like 3
General Days

General Days

On 11/5/2024 at 8:23 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Ridiculous is the only way to describe it. Like Hal told him and he just keeled over and with a few minutes they got a doctor to pronounce him dead? Not taking him to a hospital to try and resuscitate him? It's probably a good thing they didn't show it since it would make me laugh.

 

We don't really know how much time elapsed though between the call, President Rayburn collapsing, his death being called, and Hal running out of the inner room of the SCIF and pounding on the glass to demand the ability to call Kate.

In the real world White House, there are doctors right there. The White House Medical Unit — which is housed in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building and is part of the White House compound — is a huge operation. They have the ability to resuscitate, right there.

It has emergency medical and trauma capability, and provides healthcare not only to the President, Vice President, and their families, but to the staff, and members of the military as well. It certainly has crash carts, defibrillators and other emergency treatment necessities. It's like an urgent care center. 

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

3 hours ago, General Days said:

 

We don't really know how much time elapsed though between the call, President Rayburn collapsing, his death being called, and Hal running out of the inner room of the SCIF and pounding on the glass to demand the ability to call Kate.

In the real world White House, there are doctors right there. The White House Medical Unit — which is housed in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building and is part of the White House compound — is a huge operation. They have the ability to resuscitate, right there.

It has emergency medical and trauma capability, and provides healthcare not only to the President, Vice President, and their families, but to the staff, and members of the military as well. It certainly has crash carts, defibrillators and other emergency treatment necessities. It's like an urgent care center. 

But unless all the resuscitation stuff happened on camera how did Hal know that the president was dead before the VPs security detail. Trying to bring him back on camera makes no sense and Billie or someone calling Hal back to tell him what happened before the VP finds out makes no sense either.

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ahpny

ahpny

34 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But unless all the resuscitation stuff happened on camera how did Hal know that the president was dead before the VPs security detail. Trying to bring him back on camera makes no sense and Billie or someone calling Hal back to tell him what happened before the VP finds out makes no sense either.

This was more than a bit odd, but sort of still within the relm of possibilities, far-fetched though they might be. What I found perhaps even less credible (from a few episodes ago) is that the UK PM would lose all control and brutally attact a seventyish women. Though I suspect the writers may be protraying the PM as possibly of working class or middle class origin (?), how any British male politician - posh or otherwise - could attack a British women of a certain age and in that manner is beyond comprehension. This is the antithesis of having a stiff upper lip.

But points for the shocking elevation of the former VP. No one saw that coming.

  • Like 4
Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

17 minutes ago, ahpny said:

This was more than a bit odd, but sort of still within the relm of possibilities, far-fetched though they might be. What I found perhaps even less credible (from a few episodes ago) is that the UK PM would lose all control and brutally attact a seventyish women. Though I suspect the writers may be protraying the PM as possibly of working class or middle class origin (?), how any British male politician - posh or otherwise - could attack a British women of a certain age and in that manner is beyond comprehension. This is the antithesis of having a stiff upper lip.

Apparently world leaders, people who must know a ton of crazy government secrets, can't handle being told shocking news. When one of them hears it, it sends him into a homicidal rage, and for another one it kills him instantly.

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General Days

General Days

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But unless all the resuscitation stuff happened on camera how did Hal know that the president was dead before the VPs security detail. Trying to bring him back on camera makes no sense and Billie or someone calling Hal back to tell him what happened before the VP finds out makes no sense either.

We don't know when Hal finally did get a phone and got to call Kate. We don't know how long he waited in the SCIF. If someone from Oval Office called him back in the SCIF. We don't have any of those details. 

I see what you see. I just don't think we have to think that everything happened immediately. 

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

12 hours ago, General Days said:

We don't know when Hal finally did get a phone and got to call Kate. We don't know how long he waited in the SCIF. If someone from Oval Office called him back in the SCIF. We don't have any of those details. 

I see what you see. I just don't think we have to think that everything happened immediately. 

But the fact that he knew at all, and knew before the VP is surprising. He didn't tell Kate that the president collapsed, he told her that the president was dead. Who would tell him that and why would they?

  • Like 2
General Days

General Days

(edited)
2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But the fact that he knew at all, and knew before the VP is surprising. He didn't tell Kate that the president collapsed, he told her that the president was dead. Who would tell him that and why would they?

 

If you were on the phone with POTUS and he collapsed, would you hang up and go about your business while hoping for the best, or would you stay on the line as long as you could/wait for a call back, to find out what happened?

The only way I'd hang up, would be if the White House had already hung up on me. And if I had the ability, I'd probably call some deputy in the Oval and ask them to keep me apprised.

Who would tell Hal?

Billie Appiah might tell him, for one. After all Billie told Hal they were considering Kate for VP, before anyone even told Kate she was in the running. And there's a strong implication in-universe that Hal planted the idea of replacing VP Grace Penn with Kate, in the first place.

If Billie was present for Hal's call to Rayburn, and now knows that the VP was the brains behind Margaret Roylin engineering the attack on the British ship, Billie might have even told Hal to stay put until they knew President Rayburn's fate.

Why would [whoever] tell Hal?

As Kate says, Hal is "magic." He is uniquely persuasive (and when Kate's hating him, she might say "manipulative"). This is the kind of singular situation where everyone would feel stunned.

In such a state, people might be more receptive to someone who managed to say, "Keep me on the line," or "Call me back in the SCIF," with enough authority in their voice (I don't mean official authority, I mean his charisma) that the other stunned people obeyed.

Hal's been a lot of rough situations overseas. As panicked as he seemed by the time he was demanding a phone, he may well have been one of the cooler heads in the immediate aftermath of President Rayburn's collapse.

Imagine the Chaos in the Oval

The president keels. Someone discovers it (or perhaps someone like Billie was present when it happened). Maybe Hal tells them, "I need to stay on the line/need a call back, because we're in the middle of a crisis here and the Ambassador is with the VP. They need to know what's happening ASAP."

Maybe the WH staff just listened to Hal, because when they were brushing and flossing that morning, they had no idea POTUS was going drop dead before lunch, and Hal sounded like he knows what he's talking about.

All I'm saying is, we don't (yet?) know how it all played out. They gave us very little in way of action or clues as to how (and how quickly) is all happened. 

 

 

Edited by General Days
clarity
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LoveIsJoy

LoveIsJoy

Can anyone explain to me who exactly is Billie?  I must have missed (or more likely, forgotten) what her role/title is.  For the longest time I thought she was the VP (until Allison Janney showed up)!
 

Also, what Billie’s connection to Stuart?   I seem to remember a conversation or two where Billie seemed to be more personally concerned about Stuart than she would for a colleague.  I got the impression they were closer in some way.  Maybe not, just curious if anyone knows.  Thanks.

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mrsbagnet

mrsbagnet

1 hour ago, LoveIsJoy said:

Can anyone explain to me who exactly is Billie?  I must have missed (or more likely, forgotten) what her role/title is.  For the longest time I thought she was the VP (until Allison Janney showed up)!
 

Also, what Billie’s connection to Stuart?   I seem to remember a conversation or two where Billie seemed to be more personally concerned about Stuart than she would for a colleague.  I got the impression they were closer in some way.  Maybe not, just curious if anyone knows.  Thanks.

Billie is the White House chief of staff, so she's closely involved with everything happening there. A Netflix fan wiki says that she and Stuart used to work on campaigns together. 

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General Days

General Days

5 hours ago, LoveIsJoy said:

Can anyone explain to me who exactly is Billie?  I must have missed (or more likely, forgotten) what her role/title is.  For the longest time I thought she was the VP (until Allison Janney showed up)!
 

Also, what Billie’s connection to Stuart?   I seem to remember a conversation or two where Billie seemed to be more personally concerned about Stuart than she would for a colleague.  I got the impression they were closer in some way.  Maybe not, just curious if anyone knows.  Thanks.

 

This is Billie, to the left of President Rayburn. 

 

The_Diplomat_101_-_Billie_and_William.webp

  • Like 2
meep.meep

meep.meep

There are no clear panels in SCIFs.  Hal doesn't have a clearance so there would have been someone with him.

I thought they were going to make it (blowing up the ship) Dennison's big idea, just because of Hal's reaction to Kate calling him a "good man."

Great way to end the season - no one's going to forget that while we wait 1-2 years for the next season.

 

  • Like 4
aghst

aghst

It’s a fun ride but this show bears little resemblance to the world.  VPs don’t run their own off-book ops.  Most presidents keep a short leash, give them a specific portfolio.

Grace wouldn’t be able to just drop in on the embassy in England impromptu, let alone conspire with foreign parties.  Yeah the president had a heart attack and died but if he didn’t, he’d fire her.

Also don’t buy that NATOs strategy vs. Russian nuclear subs rests on a single base in Scotland.

But Kate was shown to be so out of her depth, about to accuse the UK PM of the conspiracy.  Once Trowbridge learned that Kate was trying to entrap him, he wouldn’t just be cross with her.  That alone would cost her the post.

Then Grace showed how Kate was still just a “hayseed,” ignorant about the world — at least the world depicted in the show — not to mention ignorant in how to present herself if she was going to be VP.

It’s been a humbling season for Kate.  Next season she will prove that she belongs in the big leagues?

Though Kate has been going back and forth about what she wants.

”I don’t want to be VP”

”Yes I do want to be VP”

” No I wont be VP, Grace Penn should be VP”

”If the president asks me to serve my country, I will.”

 

For Keri Russell, Kate Wiler isn’t different from Felicity “Ben or Noel” Porter.

She seems to gravitate to playing women who don’t know what they want, can’t decide what they want, like the subject in The Bangles’ “If She Knew What She Wants.”

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
kwnyc

kwnyc

So what happens when the VP is abroad and the president dies? Must they be sworn in by a US justice, or can that be done by, say, an ambassador?

Wacky hijinx ensue.

Also, will NuPrez Cregg still have "regulatory issues" with her husband? Or can she make that all go away, like she made a sovereign Nation attack its own military?

And she likely has to name a new vice president fast, as the current next in line when there is no vice president is the speaker of the house. 

As far as I'm concerned, Hal is still the idiot who set this all in motion. He knows perfectly well that his wife is an almost feral, Ambassador-adjacent, analyst and policy wonk, and not an actual political candidate.

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining. This is a fun show. 

 

  • Like 5
ProudMary

ProudMary

(edited)
5 hours ago, kwnyc said:

So what happens when the VP is abroad and the president dies? Must they be sworn in by a US justice, or can that be done by, say, an ambassador?

This is from Wikipedia, so I don't know how much we can depend upon the answer, but it would seem to be a possibility that the US Ambassador could do it.

"The presidential oath of office is traditionally administered by the Chief Justice of the United States. However, the Constitution does not mandate a specific person to administer the oath, so in cases where a vice president assumes the presidency due to the death of a sitting president, others may perform the swearing-in."

Edited to add: Also, love "NuPrez Cregg."

Edited by ProudMary
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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

On 11/23/2024 at 12:41 PM, kwnyc said:

As far as I'm concerned, Hal is still the idiot who set this all in motion. He knows perfectly well that his wife is an almost feral, Ambassador-adjacent, analyst and policy wonk, and not an actual political candidate.

Hal is pushing Kate for VP because of the adjacent power he'll have. That's all it's ever been about, IMO. 

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

On 11/24/2024 at 9:01 PM, kwnyc said:

Well, President Johnson wasn't sworn in by a Supreme Court Justice after Kennedy's assassination, but a local Federal judge. Since there are no US federal judges in England, I assume they'd have some sort of backup plan.

 

Is being sworn in a real thing that counts or is it just a formality? Like is there really no president between the time the president dies and the VP holds their hand over the bible? Or is it like the monarch in the UK where when Queen Elizabeth died Charles instantly became king but his coronation was just a ceremonial thing.

kwnyc

kwnyc

I think the swarms of secret service agents running toward her, along with being visually arresting, are there to protect MVP so she can be sworn in right away. I'm pretty sure you have to be sworn in.

(I also seem to recall that if the president is incapacitated, the VP is acting president. This has been a plot point on other TV shows, and I seem to recall that Kamala was acting president when Joe Biden was put under anesthesia this year. Who also remembers Alexander Haig screaming "I'm in charge!" After Reagan was shot?)

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MJ Frog

MJ Frog

(edited)

Man, that ending had me laughing my weezy laugh for several minutes afterward -- and I don't mean that as criticism of the show. However, the idea that Hal could be sure the president was dead even before the vice president knew does strain credulity. So I would like to propose an alternate possibility, that perhaps Hal merely assumed the president was dead, without realizing he was later revived and merely incapacitated. The scenario with the secret service and the vice president would have likely played out the same way if the president was in a medically induced coma, for instance.

Edited by MJ Frog
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merylinkid

merylinkid

(edited)
On 11/4/2024 at 8:59 AM, mrsbagnet said:

At this point, I don't understand how Kate has this job at all.

Me either.   She should have been recalled ages ago.   It's not that she needs "six months to learn how to hold a teacup" or brush her hair.   For a supposed policy wonk she is fucking stupid.   At NO point does she stop and go "oh hey we got this wrong before, maybe we should take a moment to think instead of coming up with some new wacky hijinks that will only show we were wrong -- again."   I wouldn't listen to her on policy if her analysis is as superficial as her understanding of events    The AMBASSADOR TO THE UK isn't briefed about how important it is that Scotland does NOT have a referendum so we can keep the nuclear base?   Oh and btw, Madam Ambassador, you are conveying the postion of the US government NOT your own opinions thank you very much.   

Trowbridge isn't much better.   he has the self-control of a puppy.   But puppy's are at least cute and grow out of it eventually.   Trowbridge is a grown man and cannot control himself for 5 minutes.   But we are supposed to believe he managed to work his way all up through the ranks of his party to become party leader and PM?   His temper would have destroyed him in his first term as an MP.   PMs no matter their emotions keep to themselves so their supporters can see they can keep  clear head and make rational decisions no matter the crisis.  Grove, in the box, is a better PM.  

Just sloppy characterization for the sake of "drama."

Did not expect that ending.   I expected Hal to inform Kate "It wasn't Grace's idea, the President told her to do it."   I did not expect dead president. 

ETA:  also absolutely brilliant to tell the person you are trying to bring down "I know what you did last summer."  Hal couldn't come up with a plausible lie in that moment? 

Edited by merylinkid
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Atlanta

Atlanta

On 11/2/2024 at 11:15 PM, txhorns79 said:

It does feel like they are always a step behind, or being played by someone they should obviously not trust.  As a side note, I did appreciate Grace pointing out to Kate that she looked like a complete mess.  Kate needs someone to tell her every now and then that it's okay to comb her hair, and not look like she slept in her clothes.   

She looks like she never washes her hair. Everyone else in the show seems well groomed, but she can't spare time for a shower. LOL I get her job is stressful but so is everyone else's.

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

9 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

She looks like she never washes her hair. Everyone else in the show seems well groomed, but she can't spare time for a shower. LOL I get her job is stressful but so is everyone else's.

Also it's stressful, but that is why in big, important stressful jobs you have support people working for you. So you aren't spending time doing the dishes or the laundry or taking your car in for an oil change or sorting the important emails from the bullshit ones. Which gives you more time to do your important job sure, but it also gives you time to shower, or to make sure you are wearing clean clothes.

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Ottis

Ottis

On 11/4/2024 at 8:59 AM, mrsbagnet said:

At this point, I don't understand how Kate has this job at all. She is constantly being led around by the nose by someone: Eidra, Hal, Roylin, the VP, and even the PM sometimes. The only people she shows authority with are Austin, Stuart, and the PM, and they all successfully push back when they get sick of her. With Hal she says mean shit to him, but that's weakness, not power.

I really did not like seeing Austin constantly bowing to other people's will this season. Kate and embassy staff repeatedly summoned him, and the PM and his wife were so disrespectful (though they are that way with everyone). He is an important person with a big job. The PM is his boss, okay, but who TF is Kate to be giving him orders?

Also, I get that Stuart is reeling from their breakup and his injury, but he needs to give Eidra some space. Can't they talk when they're not on duty?

I am puzzled as to why we need to care about ANY of this. Is the entire premise of this show that we are supposed to like Kate, and therefore what happens to her matters? If so, this entire series has missed the mark.

We need more. We need a protagonist who is clearly smarter and better than alternatives. Because right now, Grace seems far more qualified, and things are working out just peachy. 

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seth

seth

(edited)
On 11/1/2024 at 9:54 PM, txhorns79 said:

I'll say upfront that yes, it is completely ridiculous that Hal managed to kill the President with his news about the VP.  It makes a great twist, but it is also very silly

 

A very stupidly-placed pure plot device placed into the end of a very intelligent show/season.👎🏻

It's hard to believe the very well-researched and intricate show writers wouldn't realize everyone would go WTF! upon viewing this obvious absurdity.

If they just wanted to make sure AJ's conniving VP started next season as the Pres, with all the rife implications for Kate, they could have just as easily had the current Pres die suddenly of any number of ailments - heart attack, stroke, etc, and just had Hal report that after his phone call. But to connect it to the impact of his call is just hilarious and completely non-believable.

Edited by seth

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