Season 2 - Feud: Capote vs The Swans

[Aim123]

Disappointing when a phrase of today ends up in the dialogue, such as "I make them feel seen." Those are some overused buzzwords from 2023 (and I know this from watching The Bachelor...all of the female contestants suddenly were talking about wanting to "feel seen" or how they were happy he made them "feel seen.") Irked me.

Edited February 10 by Aim123
Thought of more things

[peacheslatour]

13 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I honestly wish this season was Feud: Capote vs. Vidal.  Both writers, both openly gay when homosexuality was technically illegal, both had a biting wit, both drunks, and both assholes.  I'm finding this season unbalanced because three episodes in the Swans have not done anything to Truman to warrant what he did to them with that article.

I think he saw the absurdity of their lives and he thought they did too. Like they were letting him in on the joke because he was special. But they didn't think their lives were absurd and they were shocked and hurt when he held up that mirror.

[Ohiopirate02]

57 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I think he saw the absurdity of their lives and he thought they did too. Like they were letting him in on the joke because he was special. But they didn't think their lives were absurd and they were shocked and hurt when he held up that mirror.

Knowing what I know about Truman, I see him using his Swans the same way he is using Joe, and the same way he used Harper Lee and Carson McCullers.  I can see the show exploring how the Swans thought they were somehow different than Harper and Carson.

[iMonrey]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:03 PM, voiceover said:

But, just like with Murphy’s last series (AHS’s Delicate), I’ll probably hang on til the end.  At least in this one, the acting is better.

Delicate was virtually unwatchable. And it's not even over yet.

I find myself engrossed in this despite it being typical Murphy fare - a lot of style and very little substance. But the cast is doing such a good job, they're what's keeping me coming back. 

I don't mind the documentary gimmick, per se, but there have been a rash of high-profile movies using the old 4:3 aspect ratio and i don't think it achieves the hoped for effect. Most people are watching on a big 4K Ultra TVs so it doesn't really feel  like you're watching an old movie or TV show, it just feels like the edges of the picture are being cut off. Filmmakers need to knock it off, it doesn't work.

And again, Jessica Lange? Please go away. People are going to think you are only capable of playing one character. 

One thing struck me as being somewhat anachronistic: the documentary interviewer asking Babe about her relationship with "a gay man." Doesn't sound like something someone would come out and say in the 1960s or that a society matron would respond to without a flinch. Capote's orientation wasn't exactly a secret but it wouldn't have been discussed so openly and nonchalantly. 

Edited February 10 by iMonrey

[carrps]

18 hours ago, Maximona said:

Yes!!!!!!  Exactly!!!

For reasons completely unrelated to this show, I was on a Truman Capote biography reading binge these past two weeks. Gerald Clarke's excellent Capote: A Biography and George Plimpton's oral biography.

Truman vs. The Swans is very entertaining, but the way it positions Capote's downfall seems off the mark to me.

In Cold Blood is a pretty terrific book; moreover, it invented a whole new literary genre. By all accounts, it was extremely difficult to write because while writing it, Capote formed a very strange relationship with Perry Smith, one of the murderers, Perry Smith. They became emotionally very close; some people even thought they had somehow contrived to become lovers.

Capote was very insistent that the book couldn't be completed unless the two murderers were executed.  In fact, he insisted he had to watch the executions.  (He did watch Hickcock's execution, but he couldn't bring himself to watch Perry Smith's.)

There's considerable weirdness behind needing someone you are emotionally attached to be executed—by hanging, no less!—while you watch because you need to finish your book.  It's kinda the ultimate betrayal of love.

The boozing and the drug-taking began then.  Good writing is hard.  And you can't do it very well if you're perpetually drunk or drugged.  Since he could no longer write well, Capote fell into writing gossip.  The chapters of Answered Prayers that exist are really execrably written.  Just really, really, really bad.  PageSix on LSD-levels of bad.

In his mind, Capote was writing a 20th Century À la recherche du temps perdu—Proust's novel was also a Big Scandal when he published it.  The difference is that À la recherche was well-written, and Answered Prayers was not.

Anyway, this explanation would have been too sophisticated for Ryan Murphy.  Far easier to see it as a socialite Mean Girls—plus socialite Mean Girls attracts more viewers, too! 😀

I do hope Gore Vidal gets to make an appearance somewhere on this show.  When Capote's liver finally gave out, and he died, Gore Vidal quipped, A wise career move.

Of course, Gore Vidal died as a pathetic old drunk, too.  There must be some sort of moral there.  😀

Excellent analysis. And this paragraph especially stood out for me:

 

 "Anyway, this explanation would have been too sophisticated for Ryan Murphy.  Far easier to see it as a socialite Mean Girls—plus socialite Mean Girls attracts more viewers, too!"

[Sweet-tea]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:16 PM, Pi237 said:

I didn’t watch season 1, but checked this out because of Diane. And she’s the most believable in her role. A few of them, you can really see the Acting, but I’m still loving this cast. 

I think Diane Lane and Naomi Watts are the best. I like Calista Flockhart in this too. I almost didn't recognize her. They all do the upper crust accent and demeanor very well. But I am not buying Chloe Sevigny in this role. She doesn't lose herself in it as much as the others. Miscasting to me. 

I love all the period stuff, even the smoking. Agree about the flashbacks though. I wish they would just tell the story from start to finish. It does lose momentum to keep cutting back and forth. Babe's betrayal was so early in the show that it didn't affect me much, because I hadn't seen the progression of her relationship with Truman. 

Tom Hollander is fantastic. I'm on edge watching him, because I'm never sure when he is going to shift from charming to cruel. 

I'm on the waiting list at my library to read Capote's Women. 

 

On 2/5/2024 at 9:04 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Another thing that makes this difficult to watch or rather, makes me sad, is this is Treat Williams’s last performance since we lost him recently.

Me too. I liked him as an actor. Saw him in a lot of stuff. 

Edited February 11 by Sweet-tea

[Sweet-tea]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:06 AM, sugarbaker design said:

And he did it for money.  What a piece of shit.

I hope so too.  There's a good TV-movie/mini-series called The Two Mrs. Grenvilles from the 80s, it's a fictionalized account of Ann Woodward's story, based on the novel by Dominic Dunne.

I loved that book and the movie! Enjoyed many of Dunne's books. 

[Black Knight]

I’d be surprised if Gore Vidal doesn’t make an appearance, given that Lee Radziwill had a lot to do with the Capote/Vidal feud. (Liz Smith spilled the beans on it a little while back - she couldn’t stand Radziwill and this was why.)

Edited February 10 by Black Knight

[carrps]

51 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Capote/Truman feud

Capote/Vidal? Or was Capote feuding with himself? 😉

[peacheslatour]

39 minutes ago, carrps said:

Capote/Vidal? Or was Capote feuding with himself? 😉

That too.

[Atlanta]

Another great Truman Capote movie is 2006's "Infamous." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamous_(2006_film) 

It has a lot of heavy hitters in the supporting roles like Sigourney Weaver as Babe, Sandra Bullock as Harper Lee, etc. Toby Jones loses himself in this role in a way PSH didn't in "Capote."

[NowVoyager]

 

A close up look at the Swan's ball gowns narrated by designer Zac Posen! 😃

No wonder they were so fabulous! 

Edited February 11 by NowVoyager

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm finding this series incredibly boring, something which I never thought I'd say about Truman Capote.  I like the idea of Capote vs Gore Vidal, I think that would have been a more appropriate feud, similar to Davis vs Crawford.   

I think I'm out.

 

[nora1992]

12 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Another great Truman Capote movie is 2006's "Infamous." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamous_(2006_film) 

It has a lot of heavy hitters in the supporting roles like Sigourney Weaver as Babe, Sandra Bullock as Harper Lee, etc. Toby Jones loses himself in this role in a way PSH didn't in "Capote."

I think this does a better job of telling the story than Hoffman’s version.  That movie highlights Hoffman’s performance; everything else is secondary.  Infamous does a better job of putting the whole story into the larger context.

[peacheslatour]

16 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Another great Truman Capote movie is 2006's "Infamous." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infamous_(2006_film) 

It has a lot of heavy hitters in the supporting roles like Sigourney Weaver as Babe, Sandra Bullock as Harper Lee, etc. Toby Jones loses himself in this role in a way PSH didn't in "Capote."

I just watched the trailer. My lord, it looks really great.  It should have been a much bigger deal than it was. I'm going to stream it. You Tube has the full movie.

[Carolina Girl]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:46 PM, Snazzy Daisy said:

Truman has a very thick skin. He seems unbothered by Ann Bang Bang whispering slurs to his face.

 

Society turned its back on her after the incident.  It was Elsie that requested she be included at events, etc. Capote knew that he could viciously insult her with reckless abandon and that no one would stand up for Ann.  

In fact when his Answered Prayers caused her suicide (and it did), it was Elsie that supposedly remarked "She shot my son, and Truman just murdered her, and so now I suppose we don't have to worry about that anymore."  

The series, though, is playing way fast and loose with the facts that we do know about the Woodward incident, starting with Capote's absurd assertion at dinner that Billy wanted some sleeping pills but that his supply was empty and that he was shot in the shower.  And a man WAS arrested for prowling the houses on Long Island subsequent to the incident. Details are fuzzy.

But Ann was NEVER really accepted in Society even during her marriage.  It was said that she was in the powder room at an event and overheard two Society Dames refer to her by the initials "NOCD" - "Not Our Class, Darling."

[Carolina Girl]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:09 PM, Maximona said:

Capote was very insistent that the book couldn't be completed unless the two murderers were executed.  In fact, he insisted he had to watch the executions. 

William F. Buckley famously said "Well, we've only had a certain number of executions in the last few years- whatever it was- and two of them were for the personal convenience of Truman Capote."

I also remember Capote injecting himself into the Sunny Von Bulow affair by submitting a declaration in the case supporting Klaus and giving the "La Cote Basque" treatment to Sunny.  

[iMonrey]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I'm finding this series incredibly boring, something which I never thought I'd say about Truman Capote.  I like the idea of Capote vs Gore Vidal, I think that would have been a more appropriate feud, similar to Davis vs Crawford.   

I had never heard about "the swans" and knew nothing about any of them. I think it might be hard to really get invested in these characters under those circumstances - I can certainly understand it. But Tom Hollander is sort of mesmerizing as Capote, and I get the gist of the story overall. 

For what it's worth, I didn't think much of Feud: Bette vs. Joan. Looked good on paper but Lange was horribly miscast as Crawford and Sarandon couldn't seem to land of a consistent interpretation of Davis. And I knew a lot more about those two than I did about the "swans" yet this season is better IMO, if only due to casting.

[peacheslatour]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I had never heard about "the swans" and knew nothing about any of them. I think it might be hard to really get invested in these characters under those circumstances - I can certainly understand it. But Tom Hollander is sort of mesmerizing as Capote, and I get the gist of the story overall. 

For what it's worth, I didn't think much of Feud: Bette vs. Joan. Looked good on paper but Lange was horribly miscast as Crawford and Sarandon couldn't seem to land of a consistent interpretation of Davis. And I knew a lot more about those two than I did about the "swans" yet this season is better IMO, if only due to casting.

I agree. If you're interested there's a book called The Swans of Fifth Avenue by Melanie Benjamin. It's pretty interesting.

[12catcrazy]

22 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I’d be surprised if Gore Vidal doesn’t make an appearance, given that Lee Radziwill had a lot to do with the Capote/Vidal feud. (Liz Smith spilled the beans on it a little while back - she couldn’t stand Radziwill and this was why.)

Oh how I miss Liz Smith!  I used to love her gossip column.  Read her memoir when it came out - I wish that I still had a copy of it.

Gore Vidal was quite the character.  Very handsome in his youth, witty, intellectual, and he could be as vicious as Capote.  I don't remember the story behind the Capote/Vidal feud but Gore Vidal shared a step-father with the Bouvier sisters (Jackie and Lee) in Hugh Auchincloss.  Gore's mother was Auchincloss's 2nd wife, with whom he had a child (Gore Vidal's half sibling), and Jackie and Lee's mother was wife #3, and had 2 children with him (the son, Jamie, is still alive.  Tragically, the daughter died from cancer in her late 30s).  With all of the marriages and divorces of  these society people , it seems that many are related to each other.  

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, 12catcrazy said:

Oh how I miss Liz Smith!  I used to love her gossip column.  Read her memoir when it came out - I wish that I still had a copy of it.

Gore Vidal was quite the character.  Very handsome in his youth, witty, intellectual, and he could be as vicious as Capote.  I don't remember the story behind the Capote/Vidal feud but Gore Vidal shared a step-father with the Bouvier sisters (Jackie and Lee) in Hugh Auchincloss.  Gore's mother was Auchincloss's 2nd wife, with whom he had a child (Gore Vidal's half sibling), and Jackie and Lee's mother was wife #3, and had 2 children with him (the son, Jamie, is still alive.  Tragically, the daughter died from cancer in her late 30s).  With all of the marriages and divorces of  these society people , it seems that many are related to each other.  

It always take me back a step whenever I remember that Anderson Cooper is Gloria Vanderbilt's son.

[Sweet-tea]

Jessica Lange's plastic surgery really threw me off in the first scene with Truman when she was goading him into killing himself. I recoiled when I saw her. Yikes!

 

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I just watched the trailer. My lord, it looks really great.  It should have been a much bigger deal than it was. I'm going to stream it. You Tube has the full movie.

Toby Jones has had some bad luck portraying famous people.  In 2005/6 his excellent turn as Capote in Infamous was overwhelmed by Phillip Seymor Hoffman's Oscar winning performance as Capote in Capote.  (Both of these movies focus on Capote's research and writing of In Cold Blood.)  Then, in 2012, he was Alfred Hitchcock in The Girl (about the making of The Birds)  In the same year Anthony Hopkins was Hitchcock in Hitchcock (about the making of Psycho).  Jones had to be thinking "What are the odds of it happening twice?"

Edited February 12 by Quilt Fairy

[Atlanta]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Toby Jones has had some bad luck portraying famous people.  In 2005/6 his excellent turn as Capote in Infamous was overwhelmed by Phillip Seymor Hoffman's Oscar winning performance as Capote in Capote.  (Both of these movies focus on Capote's research and writing of In Cold Blood.)  Then, in 2012, he was Alfred Hitchcock in The Girl (about the making of The Birds)  In the same year Anthony Hopkins was Hitchcock in Hitchcock (about the making of Psycho).  Jones had to be thinking "What are the odds of it happening twice?"

"The GIrl" was also great. He really did torture poor Tippi.

10 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I agree. If you're interested there's a book called The Swans of Fifth Avenue by Melanie Benjamin. It's pretty interesting.

I got it via Audible. Great book.

[Cheezwiz]

On 2/10/2024 at 2:12 PM, Black Knight said:

Lee Radziwill had a lot to do with the Capote/Vidal feud. (Liz Smith spilled the beans on it a little while back - she couldn’t stand Radziwill and this was why.)

Oooh, this sounds juicy - I hadn't heard about this, now I'm going to disappear down another research rabbit hole!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:51 PM, peacheslatour said:

It always take me back a step whenever I remember that Anderson Cooper is Gloria Vanderbilt's son.

I wondered if Gloria Vanderbilt (who was on her 4th and final marriage at this time) was completely left out of the show (at least, so far), so as not to antagonize Cooper.  Of course, there was a miniseries about her childhood, but I don't think there's yet been a production that focused on her adult years.  At one time she had a line of jeans, and her logo was a swan!

From a New York Times article: about her:  The jeans displayed her name on the back pocket for all to see and sported a little swan on the inner front pocket, a reference to Ms. Vanderbilt’s first stage role in 1954, in “The Swan” at the Pocono Playhouse in Pennsylvania. (She was also one of Truman Capote’s “swans,” that group of beautiful women he immortalized in the 1975 story “La Côte Basque 1965.”)

Edited February 12 by ItCouldBeWorse

[peacheslatour]

10 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I wondered if Gloria Vanderbilt (who was on her 4th and final marriage at this time) was completely left out of the show (at least, so far), so as not to antagonize Cooper.  Of course, there was a miniseries about her childhood, but I don't think there's yet been a production about her adult years.  At one time she had a line of jeans, and her logo was a swan!

From a New York Times article: about her:  The jeans displayed her name on the back pocket for all to see and sported a little swan on the inner front pocket, a reference to Ms. Vanderbilt’s first stage role in 1954, in “The Swan” at the Pocono Playhouse in Pennsylvania. (She was also one of Truman Capote’s “swans,” that group of beautiful women he immortalized in the 1975 story “La Côte Basque 1965.”)

 I read Little Gloria...Happy at Last ages ago and I remember the mini series starring Lucy Gutteridge as  Big Gloria. She looked amazingly like her. She said once. I don't think my mother ever understood anything that happened to her in her whole life."

Sigh. All of Truman's Swans.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

 I read Little Gloria...Happy at Last ages ago and I remember the mini series starring Lucy Gutteridge as  Big Gloria. She looked amazingly like her. She said once. I don't think my mother ever understood anything that happened to her in her whole life."

Sigh. All of Truman's Swans.

Anderson Cooper has a podcast called "All There is with Anderson Cooper" where he discusses grief, prompted by the suicide of his brother, the early death of his father, and his mother's more recent death.  It's very interesting. There's also a documentary Nothing Left Unsaid: Gloria Vanderbilt & Anderson Cooper (that he exec-produced) that's currently on Max.  I'm sure that eventually someone will try to film a fictionalized version of Gloria's complete life.

Edited February 13 by ItCouldBeWorse

[carrps]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

At one time she had a line of jeans, and her logo was a swan!

I know. I have a gift-with-purchase umbrella from the 70s from her line. It has a swan's head handle. I never made the connection to "the" swans. Hmmmm.

I almost lost it at a hockey game when I left it behind at my seat. But fortuitously a guy walked by us as we were going to our car, and he was carrying it (he didn't steal it -- he just picked it up because it was raining). He gave it back readily. Probably didn't want to admit (outside a hockey game) that he had a purple umbrella with a swan's head handle.

[Thalia]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:07 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

This took me out of the episode.  It's 1966, Lee is still married to her Polish Prince and Jackie is still grieving Jack and heavily leaning on his brother Robert.  I know we all know Jackie will eventually "steal" Ari Onassis from Lee, but this line does not work in 1966.

A new biography of Jackie was released last year.  Jackie:  Public, Private, Secret.

I skimmed it and can't remember all the details but that book said that JFK was dating Lee when she took him to her mother's house.  It was still casual, but Lee was interested in him.   Who knows with Jack.   Janet Auchincloss thought he was a better match for Jackie, and did some maneuvering so that Jackie was alone with Jack for a longish period of time.  From that period on he became Jackie's property and altho Lee was upset, she kept her mouth shut.   Maybe at her mother's direction.  

Given I read skimmed the book so recently, I assumed that was what she was talking about.   Although I don't know I've ever read that about him dating Lee before Jackie anywhere else. 

[MonicaBWQ]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:25 AM, iMonrey said:

One thing struck me as being somewhat anachronistic: the documentary interviewer asking Babe about her relationship with "a gay man." Doesn't sound like something someone would come out and say in the 1960s or that a society matron would respond to without a flinch. Capote's orientation wasn't exactly a secret but it wouldn't have been discussed so openly and nonchalantly. 

I agree.  I also even wondered about the use of the word “gay”. Was that a commonly used word for homosexual in the mid-60’s? Or did it still mean happy to most people?

[iMonrey]

1 hour ago, MonicaBWQ said:

I also even wondered about the use of the word “gay”. Was that a commonly used word for homosexual in the mid-60’s? 

It was not. Think of the Flintstones theme song. "You'll have a gay old time." Gay was also still fairly common as a name for girls. Marcia Gay Harden, for example. I had a cousin whose parents almost named her Gay.

The more commonly used term was "queer" and it was used as a slur at the time. A documentarian would more likely have used the word "homosexual." Homosexuality was still classified as a mental disorder in the 1960s and accusing someone of being homosexual - even someone like Capote - would have been taken as an insult.

Edited February 14 by iMonrey

[MonicaBWQ]

41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It was not. Think of the Flintstones theme song. "You'll have a gay old time." Gay was also still fairly common as a name for girls. Marcia Gay Harden, for example. I had a cousin whose parents almost named her Gay.

The more commonly used term was "queer" and it was used as a slur at the time. A documentarian would more likely have used the word "homosexual." Homosexuality was still classified as a mental disorder in the 1960s and accusing someone of being homosexual - even someone like Capote - would have been taken as an insult.

That’s what I kind of thought. When I was growing up in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s “queer” was a slur/insult. It’s been a little hard to used to people wanting to call themselves that. 

[carrps]

"Gay" as a term for homosexuals is at least a century old, but it was definitely not in common use until at least the 1970s.

[peacheslatour]

Cary Grant, Bringing up Baby, 1938-

"Because I just went gay all of a sudden!"

 

[Spartan Girl]

Whoa, so now Slim’s having an affair with Bill while Babe’s dying of cancer?! The hypocrisy…

[Cheezwiz]

I didn't see the affair between Bill Paley and Slim coming - I wonder if that indeed did happen in real life? He was an incorrigible philanderer, but that particular pairing wasn't mentioned in the "Capote's Swans" book. 

Bill Paley is portrayed as much nicer in this series than he was in real life. Maybe it's because Treat Williams is so cuddly and affable looking in the role. The real Paley was very abusive, and Babe lived in constant fear of setting him off on a tantrum. This was why she kept minute details of entertaining and everyone's preferences in her little gold book. She was expected to uphold an inhuman standard of perfection in all things. I have no doubt that the incessant stress may have contributed to Babe's ill health (well that, and the chain-smoking they all did). The book detailed an incident where Babe and Truman had to barricade themselves in a room during one of Paley's rampages. Paley did apparently soften enough to accompany Babe on her treatment sessions - perhaps he felt some guilt for his poor treatment of her at the end of her life.

Felt very sorry for Truman's long-suffering former partner Jack Dunphy - I just love the actor who plays him - he often shows up in Ryan Murphy productions.

I also really liked the scene between Truman and O'Shea's daughter. It humanized him and gave a glimpse of the type of person he could have been had he not been awash in substances and obsessed with social climbing.

I'm assuming the final meeting between Truman and Babe on the sidewalk existed only in his (and possibly her) imagination.

[voiceover]

Yeah once I saw that Slim was screwing Bill, I said “I can’t with these people!” and flicked over to NFL Slimelights on Nickelodeon.  Just in time to hear Patrick admonish a player who’d just fumbled: “You must firmly grasp the ball!”

After 30 minutes of that sorbet-to-the brain, I flicked back over.  Just in time to watch Truman take John’s daughter under his wing (actually a sweet scene, and his writerly words of wisdom were spot-on), and then that reunion scene with Babe!  Really, really got me.  Even though, IIRC, it is an invention of the series’ creators, I can’t help but think something similar must have played out in their heads hundreds of times.

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Whoa, so now Slim’s having an affair with Bill while Babe’s dying of cancer?! The hypocrisy…

I think that's an invention for the series.

[buttersister]

Paley and Slim? Neither of them were moral role models, but agree it was invented with the payoff being when Babe tells Bill to go for Slim when she’s gone. Dramatic bookends likelier than Babe knew they were banging.

I thought that last shot of Babe on the shrink’s couch sealed the deal that their reunion was her wishful thinking.

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I'm assuming the final meeting between Truman and Babe on the sidewalk existed only in his (and possibly her) imagination.

Guess we’ll find out next week for sure?

Truman taking John’s daughter under his wing was so sweet. It didn’t make me like him any more, but it was a genuine moment from someone who up until not was an insufferably pompous whiny scumbag. “I immortalized you”? Bitch, please.

Nice tribute to Treat Williams at the end there. 😭

[weaver]

That was the daughter of Annette Bening and Warren Beatty playing John's daughter in the show.  I saw the name Beatty in the credits and looked it up.  She's gorgeous and was quite good in her scene.  

Was very disappointed in last night's show.  Found it dull.  I'm fairly certain that the Slim/Paley affair was fiction, as was Babe's desire to reconcile with Truman.   I never heard of a second ball either.  

I guess what is missing for me is that we don't get to know the characters well at all except in their superficial lives.  Babe Paley's lung cancer must have been much more painful than the show portrays.  I doubt she'd be able to dress and groom herself that well every day given the lack of pain meds at the time.  And where is Amanda Mortimer Burden in all of this.  You don't have a clue about Slim's life except she lunches and has affairs.   CZ lost her house and then what happened?  

So it gets a little dull.  And there are four more episodes?   

Edited February 15 by weaver

[hoodooznoodooz]

So many commercial breaks.

[Madding crowd]

I thought the episode was very sad. It must have taken Babe a tremendous amount of effort to dress , put on makeup and jewels just to have to take everything off for radiation. I decided I have to view this as just a story rather than constantly wondering about what’s real. I also thought the scene of Babe and Bill dancing was very emotional. Naomi Watts is excellent in this. I still despise Truman; I dislike people who are constantly sarcastic. This was my favorite episode so far.

[sugarbaker design]

7 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I decided I have to view this as just a story rather than constantly wondering about what’s real.

That's really the only way to watch it, I agree.

[Jordan Baker]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

This was my favorite episode so far.

Mine, too. I thought it was really good, starting with the opening needle drop on "It's Impossible."

The acting is great across the board, but I am particularly struck by Tom Hollander. He so completely inhabits this role. I find that I am appalled by Truman, disappointed in Truman, and sad for Truman, all in the course of one episode. I remember thinking he was terrific as Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice, but this role is on another level.

I also found this episode incredibly sad. From Babe's cancer treatment to the slow dance with Bill to the (perhaps imagined?) moment between Babe and Truman, I found myself tearing up. I think the dance hit really hard, knowing that this was Treat Williams' last role.

I'm in for the rest of the ride.

[tennisgurl]

I know that Bill was famous for his affairs, but I never heard of anything between him and Slim, I feel pretty positive that it was made up for the show. What a hypocrite she is, going on about how she wants to protect Babe's feelings while banging her husband behind her back, again, in the show presumably not in the real world. 

This episode was very slow but very touching, great performances by everyone. Knowing that this was Treat Williams last role really made the episode even more bittersweet. 

Obviously this show plays fast and loose with history so I can see them giving Babe and Truman this last moment of closure, but I think it was just in Babe's head as she lay on the couch, imagining what she would say to her former best friend to give herself that closure before she passed. 

Truman taking John's daughter under his wing is also probably made up for the show, but I still really liked it, it was a much needed way to humanize Truman after so many scenes of him being self destructive and bitchy.

[surfgirl]

6 hours ago, weaver said:

I guess what is missing for me is that we don't get to know the characters well at all except in their superficial lives.  Babe Paley's lung cancer must have been much more painful than the show portrays.  I doubt she'd be able to dress and groom herself that well every day given the lack of pain meds at the time.  And where is Amanda Mortimer Burden in all of this.  You don't have a clue about Slim's life except she lunches and has affairs.   CZ lost her house and then what happened?  

So it gets a little dull.  And there are four more episodes?   

This. These women surely had more interesting lives than what we're seeing here and honestly? It feels like we were all thrown into this 'story' in mid-conversation and we're trying to keep up and figure out what the hell is going on. There is not enough build-up with each main character to really invest in them and so it all feels rather hollow to me.

[12catcrazy]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Truman taking John's daughter under his wing is also probably made up for the show, but I still really liked it, it was a much needed way to humanize Truman after so many scenes of him being self destructive and bitchy.

Actually, that is apparently the truth.  I haven't watched the episode yet, so I don't know exactly what they're showing, but Capote helped get her started as a model under the name Kate Harrington.   She was another person who was seen a lot in the media in the 80s/90s.  

[sugarbaker design]

14 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Felt very sorry for Truman's long-suffering former partner Jack Dunphy - I just love the actor who plays him - he often shows up in Ryan Murphy productions.

Joe Mantello.  I saw him on Broadway in 2010 in The Normal Heart where he gave a Tony-nominated volcanic performance.  He was amazing.

He was also show runner Jon Robin Baitz's partner from 1990 to 2002.  Mantello mainly directed, Baitz was (and is) a playwright, they were considered a Broadway super couple.

Edited February 15 by sugarbaker design