S04.E09: Church and State

[Penman61]

I am not defending a single important character on this show BUT I will say that my own experience with unexpected grief is that a lot of it is not directly about the person you lost—it’s a response to a direct, unavoidable encounter with your own mortality. So at any particular moment in grief, your sorrow might be about YOU and not about how you felt about the dearly departed.

And that, my friends, is how you see people genuinely crying (like Kerry?) at the funeral of someone they were indifferent to or even despised. The tears are for yourself; the funeral is just the occasion.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Penman61

[Avaleigh]

15 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

My favorite moment-Frank and Karl lying to Shiv. And then checking in with each other. 

Yes! I don't know when it happened but somewhere along the way these two became my favorites after Geri who is still the mvp.

I loved when Geri asked them what percentage of them is happy Logan is gone. Lol, those are the comments I'm here for. 

For me, Ewan's speech was the most powerful moment of the season. His honesty and dignity stood out from the rest of the assembly. (I feel like I can't really call them mourners in this case. Most people seem like they were there to be seen or to get confirmation that the old man is really most sincerely dead.)

[Chicago Redshirt]

31 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I have to admit to getting a little bit of satisfaction from Roman getting hit then slightly trampled by the protesters.  He was spoiling for a fight but in the end, like a typical bully, crumpled when someone fought back.  I like when any of the kids are reminded that they are only big, tough, powerful people inside the company their daddy built.

Rather than "spoiling for a fight," I read it that Roman wanted to get hurt and punished. He wanted to provoke the crowd into injuring him, possibly because he wanted to spread the "Antifa did it" gospel but largely because he punted so hard at the funeral.

The contrast between the glib, charismatic version of Roman while he was practicing his eulogy and the messed up version who tried to execute it couldn't be more stark.

He has at times a masochistic streak and a sadistic streak, and right now he seems to be hating himself for his utter failure to position himself as a reminder of Logan. He was indeed the exact opposite of Logan. Logan was seemingly incapable of feeling or expressing emotion on the level that Roman displayed. And of all the people at the funeral outside his siblings, no one had sympathy for what Roman was feeling. He cozied up to a fascist who openly mocked him for having those emotions. And even the people he tried to get to beat him up, mostly ignored him and some even helped him up.

[Lassus]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Lucky that she has somewhere she feels safer, like upstate NY.  LOL!  I'm sure there's nobody dangerous there.

God, I wish she had said she was taking the kids to Utica.

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

a lot of it is not directly about the person you lost—it’s a response to a direct, unavoidable encounter with your own mortality.

In a very dark moment I said once that people don't cry at their parents' funerals for their parents, they are crying because they're next.

[Absurda]

Or, for the damaged, they're crying because they realize they will never have the relationship or hear the words they always wanted.  No more chances, no more maybe tomorrow's.  They will never get what they wanted or needed from that person.

[Lassus]

2 hours ago, MBayGal said:

I agree, this rang false to me.  Just a few days ago she tossed Kerry and her few things out to have a taxi drop her at the subway.  Now she is treating her like a special friend.  Made no sense.

I guess, but she had had her moment with Kerry, and that moment was done.  I think it wasn't particularly crazy to have her be an actual human at this point.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Lassus

[SnarkAttack]

19 minutes ago, Lassus said:

God, I wish she had said she was taking the kids to Utica.

In a very dark moment I said once that people don't cry at their parents' funerals for their parents, they are crying because they're next.

Or...

John Mayer: 

Don't know how else to say it
Don't want to see my parents go

I'm one generation's length away
From fighting life out on my own

[UsernameFatigue]

2 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

I'm watching the episode a second time. I have to give it up to Nicholas Braun for his ability, even this far into the series, to make Greg's halting, fragmented speech sound so natural, not like actor shtick. He does this a lot when Greg is asking for something and is still trying to edit himself while speaking, to reword and "soften" whatever the request is.

This is why Greg is, and always has been, my favourite character in this series. Braun is brilliant in the role, and really deserves to finally win an Emmy for his portrayal. 

[Taget]

6 hours ago, weaver said:

At one point, the Waystar/GoJo deal was to provide funds to the sibs for a takeover of the Pierce empire.  Where does that stand in all of this?  

Deals of this magnitude usually have breakup fees.  The kids may have a lot of their personal finances on the line if it does not go through.  Money which the Pierces may use to help buy ATN or even Waystar itself.  They put too much effort into the plot point to leave it dangling and it may bite the kids.

From Connors presidential run and his buying the Mansion from Logan's ex to the Pierce purchase the kids have been pretty cavalier with the money Logan gave them.  But they can't escape a contract even if the price becomes too rich for their taste.

1 hour ago, Pestilentia said:

I don't think Roman was "spoiling for a fight" at all, he was looking to be beaten senseless in order to escape his emotional pain..

I agree.  If Roman lived a different life and wasn't in Manhattan he would be picking a fight with the biggest man he could find in the bar.  He wasn't looking to "win" a fight.  Quite the opposite.

[Zaffy]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

The tears are for yourself; the funeral is just the occasion.

The tears are also for yourself, not only for yourself.  At some point are also because of the loss: because you loved the diseased a lot, or you still have unresolved issues with him, etc etc.
Do not forget Kerry stayed many years with Logan and no matter how controlling and manipulative the latter was, she made a choice to be his employee for a long time and he literally was a very important figure in her life. So, she might indeed grieved his loss for various reasons. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, deaja said:

Had Rava not called Kendall all packed up as she was leaving, I might be on her side. But she had clearly planned to leave - even if it had just been for an hour or so. Literally calling him on the way as he was en route to the funeral, giving him no chance to lay out security options (which he could afford any security options they wanted or felt needed) was a way to make sure he couldn’t object much. If she had called him earlier, and he had consulted with his security team and then she still felt it was too dangerous, that would be different.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. The issue wasn't security in that she thought the kids might be killed (though that's possible, I guess) but that it was taking them into a siuation that was upsetting for them regardless, especially Sophie. Logan didn't care about them. They didn't care about Logan. Nobody missed them and Kendall's only thought was to make things harder for them by demanding custody in revenge. She wasn't moving them to another country, just taking them out of the city for a few days. Kendall can easily see them. I wonder if he ever did talk to Sophie about that incident he seemed to find so confusing.

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's hard for me to wrap my head around Roman's emotional breakdown and visible grief over a father who was such an asshole to all his children. It's very Battered Wife syndrome to me. The psychology behind it is more than I want to think about.

I really don't see how they can wrap this up in a nice tidy bow with just one more episode, so I suspect they won't. I'm anticipating more of a Sopranos-style ending where we just sort of walk away without any real resolution. There's so much story that there's no real stopping point to it.

I know it's realistic, but I have a hard time getting how these women apparently love the guy. Even people talking about him as a "salty dog" but "a good egg" made it hard for me to fit it to him. Seems like he's genuinely just a bully. I can't even remember him being funny. I wondered if he wasn't wealthy if they'd like him so much and sadly, maybe some of them still would. He'd just be at the bar bullying people. (Maybe this was different when he was younger at least.) But the Women Who Loved Logan's club just seem like a lot of women whose taste in men speaks badly of them.

Fun fact, you can build things without promoting fascism!

Edited May 22, 2023 by sistermagpie

[CatWarmer]

Near the end of the episode, Shiv take a call from Matsson where he says "It's a yes", she replies, "From...yeah?  and he says "They think they're interested".  Who are "they?" Who did Matsson talk to?  Mencken's people?  

I agree he wouldn't name her as CEO.

Entire conversation:

Shiv: Hey! Lukas: It's a yes. Yes? Yes. Shiv: Uh. From... Yeah? Yeah! ( Suspenseful music playing ) Okay. Great move. Smart. Lukas: Yeah. They think they're interested. And, uh, I think I can make a US CEO work. Shiv: Great. Let's, uh, let's make a meatball burger. ( Chuckles softly ) Lukas: Yeah. Good night.

 

[ProudMary]

1 hour ago, Lassus said:

I guess, but she had had her moment with Kerry, and that moment was done.  I think it wasn't particularly crazy to have her be an actual human at this point.

Agreed.

Also, Kerry posed no threat at the funeral. On a more public stage, Marcia could make a nice gesture. At Logan and Marcia's home the day after his death, Marcia specifically did NOT want Kerry to have access to Logan's chamber. Kerry was either looking for something or Marcia feared she might plant something. There was no such threat at the church.

[Stella Rose]

I just realized that other than when a character has a "big speech" moment, 90% of the dialogue is unfinished sentences and non sequiturs.  

"Yeah, so...  um....  yeah."
"Right".

"Sure, yeah."

"You know I really...  um...  sure."

Bless.  For saying a lot, these people say nothing.

 

[Stella Rose]

7 hours ago, sandyskyblue said:

While I don't think Roman actually 'pre-grieved', it is definitely a thing....when my husband passed after having cancer for 9 months, I asked my sister 'why do I feel so relieved (one of many emotions I was feeling then) right now?', she said I was already grieving during those 9 months without me even realizing it...it made perfect sense to me then and still does now after 10 years

I am so sorry for what you went through.  That is a whole different situation though - the feeling of relief after caretaking for a lengthy illness is absolutely understandable.  As to Roman I think if he did "pre-grieve" he just lived his life grieving that his father was a total turd and did not give two skinny rat's asses about him.

[Pestilentia]

30 minutes ago, CatWarmer said:

Near the end of the episode, Shiv take a call from Matsson where he says "It's a yes", she replies, "From...yeah?  and he says "They think they're interested".  Who are "they?" Who did Matsson talk to?  Mencken's people?

 

I took "It's a yes"  to mean that he had pitched an American CEO to Mencken (we saw that pitch, remember?) and Mencken seemed interested, so "they"  are  Mencken & company.
She inferred that she herself might be that American CEO but that's all Shiv's  hubris IMO, he has zero intention of working with her.

[Avabelle]

42 minutes ago, Stella Rose said:

I just realized that other than when a character has a "big speech" moment, 90% of the dialogue is unfinished sentences and non sequiturs.  

"Yeah, so...  um....  yeah."
"Right".

"Sure, yeah."

"You know I really...  um...  sure."

Bless.  For saying a lot, these people say nothing.

 

It’s so annoying! 

[rhygirl720]

upon rewatch:

I think Shiv and Tom end up back together at least for a while. She'll be hanging with him while she is not the CEO.

Roman is broken. Won't be surprised if he dies.

Kendall had another good episode. His ex-wife made the right move though.

If Matsson takes the company my guess is Greg is his puppet.

so, if I were writing the ending... I'd have Jimenz ultimately win the election.

 

[aghst]

Logan has said plenty of funny things on the show.

For instance this one comes to mind:

 

Quote

Frank:  Yeah the family trusts here.  This could be huge.  She could be our Coriolanus.

(Logan and Kendal look befuddled).

Frank:  He switched sides:

Logan:  You know, why don't you take your library card and ... fuck off?

 

 

Tell me a zinger like that doesn't win over women.

 

 

[Pj3422]

Anybody here ever see Death at a Funeral, starring Matthew MacFadyen (Tom)? 

We were SO CLOSE to hearing, “MY FATHER WAS AN EXCEPTIONAL MAN!”

[Avaleigh]

6 hours ago, ahpny said:

Ewan's speech was poignant because it was truthful but surprisingly measured and respectful. He loved and understood his brother despite his flaws, which were many and monumental.  

I agree with all of this especially your point about the speech being surprisingly respectful. Based on Roman and Shiv aggressively attempting to keep Ewan from speaking, I was expecting an embarrassing speech filled with OTT rage and instead, it ended up being the only great speech in the lineup. 

Once Ewan started talking about their wartime experience as children and Logan being blamed in childhood for the death of their sister, he somehow managed to do the impossible and made me feel more sympathy for Logan than I would have thought possible. 

I also liked the dig at Roman, Shiv and Greg when he asked "What kind of lowlife people would prevent a man from speaking at his own brother's funeral?" What kind of people indeed. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Stella Rose said:

I am so sorry for what you went through.  That is a whole different situation though - the feeling of relief after caretaking for a lengthy illness is absolutely understandable.  As to Roman I think if he did "pre-grieve" he just lived his life grieving that his father was a total turd and did not give two skinny rat's asses about him.

Roman seemed to think fearing what would happen if your parent died was the same thing as pre-grieving, which it so isn't. Logan was completely himself until the end, manipulating Roman and dangling approval.

 

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Logan has said plenty of funny things on the show.

For instance this one comes to mind:

 

 

 

Tell me a zinger like that doesn't win over women.

Forgot that one! Credit where credit is due!

[lucindabelle]

I don’t quite understand why the kids are so grief stricken when so many times there seemed no love lost.

also neither Kendall nor shiv remotely gave “the other side.”

roman was so pitiful. I had a similar moment of dizziness at my fathers funeral when I realized the “altar” I was standing in front of to tell

his story was the coffin and he was there. But I didn’t melt down, just my voice broke. But that “is he in there” moment is so real.

whatever her motives I love what Caroline did.

[chaifan]

If Tom gets behind the wheel of a car next episode, you know they're all going to die.  That's the only thing I can think of coming out of the repeated "I'm so tired" comments.

If Greg becomes CEO, HBO will owe me a new TV, because something is getting thrown at it.   But I think everyone is right, it's sure looking that way.  I'm hoping it's a giant red herring.

[absolutelyido]

5 hours ago, Stella Rose said:

I just realized that other than when a character has a "big speech" moment, 90% of the dialogue is unfinished sentences and non sequiturs.  

"Yeah, so...  um....  yeah."
"Right".

"Sure, yeah."

"You know I really...  um...  sure."

Bless.  For saying a lot, these people say nothing.

 

I love the show, but you can't mistake it for an Aaron Sorkin drama.

[Stella Rose]

17 minutes ago, absolutelyido said:

I love the show, but you can't mistake it for an Aaron Sorkin drama.

Or a Shonda Rhimes show.  Olivia Pope on Succession...  "I..  um yeah.  Good.  Always.  You know, I mean, better than, yeah, um, well anyone.  Like, um, facts, right?"

 

[yellowjacket]

11 hours ago, ahpny said:

Her "rights" are governed by their divorce agreement and whatever else the Court may have said. Though were not privy to those details, Kendall's reactions seem to confirm she does indeed after the right to do exactly what she did. More specifically, he hastily made an appointment with matrimonial counsel to change the custody terms that are in place. Also, given the rapidly deteriorating situation (to which both Kendall and Logan contributed), she can be excused for not providing more generous notice. Whether her decision was justified or fair is another matter, but there's nothing to suggest she did this for any reason other than her fear for the safety of their children. Whether her fear was irrational or based on an exaggerated assessment of the danger isn't wholly clear. Nevertheless, nothing points to "screwing Kendall" as any part of her motivation. 

I didn’t understand that. Marcia has never been shown to be warm and loving. What’s in it for her to show a modicum of human kindness now? She’s consistently been shown to be a cold, vindictive and dispassionately focused on her own interests. That is, a good fit for the Roys.

A good eulogy for a bad person is a tricky thing to pull off. We don’t generally say bad things about the deceased in a eulogy, but Logan Roy wasn’t some random guy. There were literally riots happening largely because of him as the mourners gathered for his funeral. Ewan's speech was poignant because it was truthful but surprisingly measured and respectful. He loved and understood his brother despite his flaws, which were many and monumental.  

I didn’t know what to make of that other than as a reading from the usual Roy playbook of putting misplaced effort into hurting others (here Tom) despite the harm caused to the innocent (the fetus).

That it wasn’t the expected total failure (he didn’t rap, and was better than Roman) doesn’t mean it was worthy of much praise. It was still largely incoherent and banal – “greed is good” doesn’t really cut it. Corpuscles, money, yadda, yadda, just more Kendall-speak that didn’t really go anywhere. Also, he admitted that what Ewen said was correct, so not much of “the other side” came through, which seemed to be what he had intended Roman address.

That frequently-forgotten Connor was the only Roy child to have a spouse or significant other present at their father’s funeral seems telling. He may be in the eyes of his siblings a failure and a joke, but at least he has someone who shows up and does offer real support. None of the other siblings had that. 

Sorry if this is too much, but I got that Marcia and Kerry and Logan had throupled, if that's a verb.

 

[Adgirl]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:38 PM, jeansheridan said:

Willa is the least horrible person in the core family

Ah but she is evolving isn't she? Willa is Marcia now.

I couldn't muster up even a little sympathy for Roman. Kudos to Kieran Culkin he deserves all the awards for his work this year.

I think Marcia and Kerry are scheming. Speaking of Kerry what would a lawyer do if she were denied access to the funeral? I love that the most arrogant people on this show tend to be the most dim. 

Is Mattson not very articulate or should I watch with subs?

 

[millennium]

Leave it to the Roys to make the Nazi look good, because at least the Nazi has principles (horrible though they may be).  

Nazi:  "I thought you hated me."

Shiv: "I respect our audience."

[cmfran]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

If Tom gets behind the wheel of a car next episode, you know they're all going to die.  That's the only thing I can think of coming out of the repeated "I'm so tired" comments.

If Greg becomes CEO, HBO will owe me a new TV, because something is getting thrown at it.   But I think everyone is right, it's sure looking that way.  I'm hoping it's a giant red herring.

Agreed. Greg becoming CEO would be completely ridiculous and off-brand for this show. 

[Zaffy]

Well, I guess this not a very popular opinion, but I was bored..
Cause apart from that Great TV "Wedding episode", the rest of season was kind of boring.
Yes, the acting is superb, some scenes are great, but we are watching the same thing in a loop for 4 seasons now, even if it is so well made.
Kids are spiraling, Greg and Tom the usual stuff, there is some other very rich guy who is a tad villain (Mattson),  Kendall keeps giving creepy speeches, etc etc etc.. 
 

[Lassus]

1 hour ago, cmfran said:

Agreed. Greg becoming CEO would be completely ridiculous and off-brand for this show. 

And worse, it would be cheap writing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Adgirl said:

Speaking of Kerry what would a lawyer do if she were denied access to the funeral? I love that the most arrogant people on this show tend to be the most dim. 

Is Mattson not very articulate or should I watch with subs?

 

What could a lawyer do? Kerry has no right to attend Logan's funeral against the wishes of Logan's family.

I tend to watch everything with subs anyways, but don't have any trouble understanding Matsson when he's speaking English.

[laurakaye]

20 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

Entire conversation:

Shiv: Hey! Lukas: It's a yes. Yes? Yes. Shiv: Uh. From... Yeah? Yeah! ( Suspenseful music playing ) Okay. Great move. Smart. Lukas: Yeah. They think they're interested. And, uh, I think I can make a US CEO work. Shiv: Great. Let's, uh, let's make a meatball burger. ( Chuckles softly ) Lukas: Yeah. Good night.
 

I need to know what a meatball burger is and how it relates to Shiv and Lukas.

The quick, smarmy line from Kieran Culkin to Frank right as Roman got up to deliver his eulogy: Frank says something to Roman: "Are you okay, son?"  Roman replies, "Already pre-grieved.  Not your son."  So biting and cruel from Roman, and then seconds later Roman becomes so overcome that he can't speak and has to be escorted back to his seat.  That's the brilliance of this character, IMO - he can go from a mean little sh!thead to a complete wreck in the space of a minute.  I at once hate him and then feel sorry for him and then I hate him again and then I'm terrified he's going to get trampled to death.

I'm going to need a few new shows to watch that come close to the brilliance of this one when it's all said and done.  The closest I can think of regarding a group of messed-up siblings was Bloodline.  Or, I could (and likely will) just re-watch Succession in its entirety.  

Edited May 23, 2023 by laurakaye

[rhygirl720]

1 minute ago, laurakaye said:

I need to know what a meatball burger is and how it relates to Shiv and Lukas.

 

meatball burger would be a fusion dish in this case American /Italian, which doesn't really work because Matsson is a swede. But it would be a Euro company with an American CEO

 

[RedDelicious]

Aha, a Swedish meatball burger. 

[SnarkAttack]

46 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I need to know what a meatball burger is and how it relates to Shiv and Lukas.

The quick, smarmy line from Kieran Culkin to Frank right as Roman got up to deliver his eulogy: Frank says something to Roman: "Are you okay, son?"  Roman replies, "Pre-grieved.  Also, not your son."  So biting and cruel from Roman, and then seconds later Roman becomes so overcome that he can't speak and has to be escorted back to his seat.  That's the brilliance of this character, IMO - he can go from a mean little sh!thead to a complete wreck in the space of a minute.  I at once hate him and then feel sorry for him and then I hate him again and then I'm terrified he's going to get trampled to death.

I'm going to need a few new shows to watch that come close to the brilliance of this one when it's all said and done.  The closest I can think of regarding a group of messed-up siblings was Bloodline.  Or, I could (and likely will) just re-watch Succession in its entirety.  

Bloodline!  Love me some Kyle Chandler.

[rhygirl720]

 

2 hours ago, cmfran said:

Agreed. Greg becoming CEO would be completely ridiculous and off-brand for this show. 

To quote Matsson " but would it though?"

13 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

Aha, a Swedish meatball burger. 

47 minutes ago, Lassus said:

And worse, it would be cheap writing.

Swedish meatball burger does not sound like a good dish. To me.

I don't really see this as cheap writing. Greg has been around from the beginning. This season he really has found his niche; opportunistic snake, so non-threatening, and easy to dismiss. He's learned from his mentor Tom and truthfully, he is better at it. Would I want Greg to be running my company, no but let's face it he isn't going to run anything, just a figurehead. I mean Connor could be an alternate choice. He hasn't really made any inroads with Matsson though. Maybe if Waystar maintains control it will go Connor's way with the elders running the show. Who knows. If it's Matsson it's Greg. Matsson does not have any respect for woman, pussy, pasta price is his mantra. So, Shiv doesn't seem a likely choice. She has betrayed her family and isn't trustworthy. AS much as Ewan and Logan did not see eye to eye there was loyalty there. She is good at managing PR so maybe a role but not CEO.

The Kendall arc would be good writing but hard to latch onto have all of the multiple failures/meltdowns we have seen. If Kendall somehow manages to come out on top it would be believable.

 

 

 

 

[Absurda]

I don't know about Greg being CEO.  Mattson told Shiv she was unqualified for CEO.  Greg is even more unqualified, IMO.  He hasn't had a high-level role in the company and he's only been there a few years.  Appointing this unknown, glorified gofer, as CEO would not play well in Wall Street even if it's an open secret that they're just a puppet.

I can see Mattson ditching the whole family and going to one of the old guard or a complete outsider as a surprise choice.

[aghst]

11 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I love the show, but you can't mistake it for an Aaron Sorkin drama.

 

11 hours ago, Stella Rose said:

Or a Shonda Rhimes show.  

Thank goodness for that!

33 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I don't know about Greg being CEO.  Mattson told Shiv she was unqualified for CEO.  Greg is even more unqualified, IMO.  He hasn't had a high-level role in the company and he's only been there a few years.  Appointing this unknown, glorified gofer, as CEO would not play well in Wall Street even if it's an open secret that they're just a puppet.

I can see Mattson ditching the whole family and going to one of the old guard or a complete outsider as a surprise choice.

None of the Roy kids or Greg are qualified.

Not sure Tom is either and he has some executive experience.

Gerri is about the only one qualified.

But it's about family control right?  That's what the siblings tell each other to justify one of them being the CEO when as a public corporation, there is no inherent familial right.

If they wanted that right, they should have issued two classes of shares so that they owned only the controlling shares.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

I don't know about Greg being CEO.  Mattson told Shiv she was unqualified for CEO.  Greg is even more unqualified, IMO.  He hasn't had a high-level role in the company and he's only been there a few years.  Appointing this unknown, glorified gofer, as CEO would not play well in Wall Street even if it's an open secret that they're just a puppet.

Greg also can't string two coherent sentences together.  I could see Greg as a possibility if he were a smooth talker, someone wholly unqualified but could talk a good game and look good to the public.  But he'd make a total fool of himself the minute he opened his mouth.  Stock prices would take a nosedive.  I just can't see any way this would happen. 

 

[TexasGal]

I rewatched last night with subtitles on, and realized I'd missed some things.  Damn mumbling!

I was struck by the shot of Karolina and Gerri during Shiv's eulogy when she said the line about Logan not being able to hold an entire woman in his head - so great!  They both had subtle but "um yep" reactions

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Absurda said:

I don't know about Greg being CEO.  Mattson told Shiv she was unqualified for CEO.  Greg is even more unqualified, IMO.  He hasn't had a high-level role in the company and he's only been there a few years.  Appointing this unknown, glorified gofer, as CEO would not play well in Wall Street even if it's an open secret that they're just a puppet.

I can see Mattson ditching the whole family and going to one of the old guard or a complete outsider as a surprise choice.

I think it comes down for what you want your CEO to do and be. 

If you want the CEO to be an independent thinker, a rallier of troops, someone who inspires investor confidence, then none of the Roys nor Greg are possessed of all the qualities one would want in sufficient quantity IMO: intelligence, charisma, prior experience/track record, political acumen, vision, etc. etc. etc.

If what you want as CEO is a non-threatening sock puppet who will do what you tell them when you tell them and will be absolutely transparent and predictable, then Greg is a perfect candidate in a way that the rest are not.

If you believe (as you should) that all Wall Street cares about is if the company's making money, then it doesn't really matter who's CEO as long as you can accomplish that goal of making money.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Greg also can't string two coherent sentences together.  I could see Greg as a possibility if he were a smooth talker, someone wholly unqualified but could talk a good game and look good to the public.  But he'd make a total fool of himself the minute he opened his mouth.  Stock prices would take a nosedive.  I just can't see any way this would happen. 

 

I think that Greg can talk OK, it's just that most times we see him, he is busy toadying or being bullied. If he had nominal power, maybe that wouldn't be such an issue.

I also think that there's not that much public speaking that CEOs do have to do in this context. Logan, it seemed to me, rarely gave addresses. He typically had his minions speak at things like Investor Day and what not. And even if Greg were substantially worse at public speaking than I think and had to do more of it as CEO than I think, there are workarounds. (Pre-recorded addresses, training to be a better speaker, etc.)

Not that I want this to end with Greg being the CEO, but I am just saying it's not outlandish.

[Penman61]

I understand why it's being discussed--the show, esp in this episode, has been setting up Greg as a viable dramatic choice for CEO--but just repeating what I said weeks ago:

If Greg has the crown when the music stops, this show will have jumped the shark as badly as any show ever has. It will reveal the creator Jesse Armstrong as having a puerile and shallow understanding of how things work, and instead wanted to make A Point about How Bad Capitalist Things Are (and I hate capitalism, unbridled, myself). Armstrong has already dramatized the point that underqualified nepobaby corporatists are ruining the world, and so far, he's done it convincingly and compellingly.

But CEO Greg?....just, no. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Penman61

[Alexander Pope]

There was a great moment in Kendall's speech--which I enjoyed far more than I should have because of Strong's performance and Kendall's unexpected eloquence (of course Mencken dug it)--when he was orating about how much Logan made, and said "he made me and my siblings."  Did anyone catch Caroline's face at that remark?  So classic! If Kendall could have been born from the head of Zeus (i.e. Logan), that would have been perfect given the sexism of this family.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Alexander Pope
for clarity

[cmfran]

Let's not forget that Greg was barfing into the head of a theme park costume in the first season premiere. Yes, he's come a long way, but he's still a bumbling nobody in the Waystar/Royco world and not qualified for much of anything. 

[poeticlicensed]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

I understand why it's being discussed--the show, esp in this episode, has been setting up Greg as a viable dramatic choice for CEO--but just repeating what I said weeks ago:

If Greg has the crown when the music stops, this show will have jumped the shark as badly as any show ever has. It will reveal the creator Jesse Armstrong as having a puerile and shallow understanding of how things work, and instead wanted to make A Point about How Bad Capitalist Things Are (and I hate capitalism, unbridled, myself). Armstrong has already dramatized the point that underqualified nepobaby corporatists are ruining the world, and so far, he's done it convincingly and compellingly.

But CEO Greg?....just, no. 

 

That's why I think there are one of two possible scenarios. 1) the kids are the ultimate losers and Matsson takes control and outs them and they are left with their billions and not in Waystar 

OR, and more likely 

We end up where we started 4 years ago, with Kendall as heir apparent, but no daddy to hand over the reins. Instead he has to destroy everyone to get there, therefore becoming Logan. 

Jeremy Strong was on Kara Swisher's succession podcast and will be on again next week after the finale. Which is part of what leads me to think he ends up as CEO.

Edited May 23, 2023 by poeticlicensed

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, poeticlicensed said:

We end up where we started 4 years ago, with Kendall as heir apparent, but no daddy to hand over the reins. Instead he has to destroy everyone to get there, therefore becoming Logan. 

 

That seems pretty hard to accept. It's been well-established that Kendall is not Logan. Plus, Logan didn't destroy everyone to get to where he was. He built the company at some point, he didn't claw his way to the top of somebody else's.

[poeticlicensed]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

these women apparently love the guy. Even people talking about him as a "salty dog" but "a good egg" made it hard for me to fit it to him. Seems like he's genuinely just a bully. I can't even remember him being funny. I wondered if he wasn't wealthy if they'd like him so much and sadly, maybe some of them still would. He'd just be at the bar bullying people. (Maybe this was different when he was younger at least.) But the Women Who Loved Logan's club just seem like a lot of women whose taste in men speaks

Rupert Murdoch, Sumner Redstone, and old the rich old devils get married over and over. Not because they are charming