S01.E12: Nothing Changed Except For Everything

[Pop Tart]

Quote

With Angie on leave, Will and Faith partner up with Ormewood to investigate a string of serial killer cases tied to Will and Angie's childhood and a chain of incidents, formerly investigated by Amanda and Evelyn, from the '80s.

Air date: 04.25.23 

[CrystalBlue]

Angie on leave.  Sounds good to me ☺️.

[DEL901]

Ugh!  A two parter with a heck of a cliff hanger.  I don’t want to wait a week   

And love the flashbacks of Amanda and Faith’s mom….but holy crap, the final reveal by Amanda…now we know why she has taken Will under her wing.  

I’ll say more after the episode airs in the US. 

[greekmom]

Agreed. What a cliff hanger and no freaking promo.

Amanda shouldn't have held that info about Will from him.

I knew the villain had Angie as soon as she didn't make it to her review.

The flashbacks were great.

[possibilities]

Holy shit.

[AnimeMania]

How old is this guy supposed to be and why didn't he kill Pee-Pee Percy? Is he looking for Lucy's kid? Shouldn't he know approximately what age and race the kid should have been?

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

How old is this guy supposed to be and why didn't he kill Pee-Pee Percy? Is he looking for Lucy's kid? Shouldn't he know approximately what age and race the kid should have been?

Personally I think that the killer was using Percy to find the other orphans until Percy didn't become useful anymore.  The killer defiantly has to be the regular that would paint Lucy's nails.  I wonder if he kept her alive long enough till she had Will then he dumped her and dumped Will in the trashcan.  

I also wonder if the killer now might think he might possibly be Will's father and this is a way to get Will's attention?  

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Personally I think that the killer was using Percy to find the other orphans until Percy didn't become useful anymore.  The killer defiantly has to be the regular that would paint Lucy's nails.  I wonder if he kept her alive long enough till she had Will then he dumped her and dumped Will in the trashcan.  

I also wonder if the killer now might think he might possibly be Will's father and this is a way to get Will's attention?  

Or maybe he actually is Will's father.

Man that could mess you up, after a lifetime of feeling abandoned and not good enough, to find out your mom was a prostitute and your dad a serial killer.

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Or maybe he actually is Will's father.

Man that could mess you up, after a lifetime of feeling abandoned and not good enough, to find out your mom was a prostitute and your dad a serial killer.

He could very well be. But you would think if the killer was positive that Will was his child from the beginning he wouldn't have dumped him?  Just a thought.  

Anyway, the wait till next Tuesday is killing me!!!!

[Starchild]

And there was SO MUCH BETTY in this episode! Will even brought her to the orphanage (for some reason I may have missed).

[Clanstarling]

I didn't like Will and Angie not cluing in the bosses on the direct link - of course they didn't clue Will and Angie in on the fact that they'd worked the earlier case. I sure wasn't expecting Lucy to be Will's mother.

It's probably the first time I haven't minded a cliff hanger - there was a lot to absorb.

 

[DEL901]

19 minutes ago, Starchild said:

And there was SO MUCH BETTY in this episode! Will even brought her to the orphanage (for some reason I may have missed).

I think Will said he didn’t want to leave her alone because of the killer…she could be hurt if the killer came to Will’s place and she was alone. 

I guess Angie put her in the hamper for protection.  

And I thought it was sad and telling that Will assumed Angie killed that guy.  

Edited April 26, 2023 by DEL901

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I didn't like Will and Angie not cluing in the bosses on the direct link - of course they didn't clue Will and Angie in on the fact that they'd worked the earlier case. I sure wasn't expecting Lucy to be Will's mother.

I didn't like that they didn't share that information with their bosses, but it made sense why they didn't.  I also didn't like that Amanda didn't share that important information with the leads on her case, even though we now understand why.  The miscommunication was frustrating, yet I also felt it was honest character work.  In other words, it didn't feel like a cheap obstacle to dragging out the mystery like some obstacles or red herrings tend to be.  Because not only did Will and Angie's choice to remain silent make sense, given they felt a personal connection, but Ormewood's decision to be quiet with them made sense for his character as much as Faith's was to decide to fess up. I wish I had the second episode.  It has been a long time since I felt a two-parter merited two parts---assuming this finishes strong.

I know he's considered a jerk, but I love Paul and how MPG plays him.  The way he kept picking up Betty off of his lap, and then Betty returned cracked me up.  "Your dog is obsessed with me!" I hope he doesn't die or isn't the killer. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Irlandesa

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Irlandesa said:

I didn't like that they didn't share that information with their bosses, but it made sense why they didn't.  I also didn't like that Amanda didn't share that important information with the leads on her case, even though we now understand why.  The miscommunication was frustrating, yet I also felt it was honest character work.  In other words, it didn't feel like a cheap obstacle to dragging out the mystery like some obstacles or red herrings tend to be.  Because not only did Will and Angie's choice to remain silent made sense, given they felt a personal connection, but Ormewood's decision to be quiet with them made sense for his character as much as Faith's was to decide to fess up. I wish I had the second episode.  It has been a long time since I felt a two-parter merited two parts---assuming this finishes strong.

I agree that in the end it all made sense, and that it was good character work. I did like this episode, and I think it's one of the few times I've thought a two parter was a good idea. I think (cross my fingers) that we can assume it will finish strong, as it's been strong all along. I've never read the books, for which I'm grateful since I can appreciate the characters as they are on the show and not nit pick (as I've done with other shows). It's one of the best new series of its kind that I've seen in a long long time.

[milkyaqua]

Looking forward to the second part and I was annoyed at both parties not sharing but did get the reasons why.

I gasped when I figured out who Will's mom had been.  Wow, I really hope his dad isn't the serial killer.

I like Paul as well and I'm pretty sure he's not the killer.

I'm sure Angie will survive and I thought she'd put Betty in the hamper to protect her as well.

[DEL901]

Considering that when they filmed, they didn’t know they were getting picked up for season two, I’m expecting a satisfying conclusion.   Can’t wait for Tuesday and very glad I can watch at 7pm Eastern a time and not wait until 10.  
 

eta, i thought it was so sad when Will asked if his mother had wanted him.  I got mad atAmanda when she didn’t tell him that she was leaving the life for him when she was killed.  

Edited April 26, 2023 by DEL901

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

And I thought it was sad and telling that Will assumed Angie killed that guy.  

But did she even tell Will what was going on with the guy's girlfriend and daughter, and the conversation she had with him on the bench? I can't recall, but if she didn't, then the only thing Will knows is that Angie says she killed her abuser in self defense. 

 

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I know he's considered a jerk, but I love Paul and how MPG plays him.  The way he

kept picking up Betty off of his lap, and then Betty returned cracked me up.  "You're dog is obsessed with me!" I hope he doesn't die or isn't the killer. 

That was adorable. And I'd be shocked if he's the killer, since we saw someone trying to kill him.

 

53 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

i thought it was so sad when Will asked if his mother had wanted him.  I got mad atAmanda when she didn’t tell him that she was leaving the life for him when she was killed.  

I suspect that's the foundation of his trauma. Not telling him was a terrible choice.

[possibilities]

The way they left Will and Angie last week, and the way they picked the two of them up at the beginning of this episode-- with her insulting him and him walking away, with her resolve to "let him go" and all of that... and then with him picking her up at the hospital, and her immediately saying she'd go to his house when she couldn't go home... again, it's terrible, but honest character work.

I was really fed up last week, and this week they really show you why the two of them still wind up enmeshed. They had no one and nothing else most of their lives, and even now... Amanda was keeping this huge secret from Will... it makes it even more understandable that he feels like letting go of Angie is not his priority, because at least with her it's really clear what the issues are between them. I think someone as sensitive as Will would at some level feel that he couldn't trust Amanda, that there was something not upfront. He can't trust Angie to be there for him or treat him well, but he knows exactly who she is and what to expect. Amanda is much more objectively reasonable, but she keeps him at arms length in her own way and he couldn't really get past that, either. And he felt like nobody wanted him, so at least Angie wants him some of the time. 

A dumpster, for godsake. It's one thing to be given up for adoption, or taken from your parents, or to have your parents die tragically. It's another thing to be FOUND IN A DUMPSTER. 

Kudos to the show for making that not seem like too much over the top melodrama, because it's the kind of thing that if you pitched it (our main character was found in a dumpster as a baby!) would sound like an unnecessary flourish, but I can accept it in this show. That says something about them, or me, not sure which. But it's a hell of an accomplishment.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Love how MPG has this recurring role.  He shows up here and there, adding spice to the rest of the storyline.  I thought this episode was very well done.

I wonder if Angie will survive next episode....

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I wonder if Angie will survive next episode....

Good chance she will unless she is asking for a huge increase in pay for season 2.

[kaygeeret]

I have loved this show from the first episode, strong acting and writing.  Great tv.

I had one issue this week with Amanda.  I am not hard of hearing, I heard her voice just fine, but I swear I missed 90% of her exposition.  Her speeches seemed mumbled to me as well as being spoken in a monotone and very, very quickly.

I don't know what was wrong.  

Does anyone know if the show is being rerun on one of the streaming networks?  Hulu maybe?  I need to rewatch.

 

[LuvMyShows]

There is one piece of camera work that I wondered about.  When old-timey Evelyn and Amanda went to that fancy restaurant to find the old defense lawyer, at the very end the camera did a close-up on the big soup bowl that he ordered, and showed the waitress's hands placing the bowl in front of him.  Then we saw a close-up of Amanda staring.  And then they cut to when Lucy was first arrested in the police station with her handcuffs on.  The only thing I could figure to explain these close-ups is that Amanda was staring at the waitress's painted fingernails, which led to the memory of the Lucy in the station and then talking about the paint job on Lucy's nails.  Is this correct?  Cause at first I thought the point of the close-up was the soup, and there would go on to be some connection with soup, and that defense lawyer would turn out to be the bad guy.

2 minutes ago, kaygeeret said:

Does anyone know if the show is being rerun on one of the streaming networks?  Hulu maybe?  I need to rewatch.

Yes, the show is on Hulu...that's where I've been watching it.

[kaygeeret]

Thanks for the info LuvMyShows

[MerBearHou]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I know he's considered a jerk, but I love Paul and how MPG plays him.  The way he kept picking up Betty off of his lap, and then Betty returned cracked me up.  "Your dog is obsessed with me!" I hope he doesn't die or isn't the killer. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Irlandesa

Such a great scene with Betty and MPG — I hope he stays around too.  His character is such a mess but fun to watch. 

[catrice2]

Oh, the fashion on this show!  I hope Season 2 has the same great style. I believe Evelyn was miscast and I say that as someone who loves that actress!  Last week she was disgraced and they were at each other's throats, now she is a collaborator working on a case? 

I hate Ormewood and Will together.  I feel like I am seeing less of Faith?  Did we get any mention of where Nico is?  

Will and Angie's dysfunctional relationship has never bothered me. It is no different than the will they won't they that they weave into every male/female pairing on a tv show...Moonlighting, Law and Order, etc. It is tiring but as long as it is not the only focus of the show I can tolerate it.  An unfortunate truth is that there are walking wounded like that amongst us every day who can function but never truly have found a way to deal with their pain.  Both are handling it the best way they know how, which may not be the BEST way, but I think it is realistic.   

[HelloooKitty]

Amanda had no right to keep that info from Will. I am very angry with her. 

[Rickster]

15 hours ago, greekmom said:

Personally I think that the killer was using Percy to find the other orphans until Percy didn't become useful anymore.  The killer defiantly has to be the regular that would paint Lucy's nails.  I wonder if he kept her alive long enough till she had Will then he dumped her and dumped Will in the trashcan.  

I also wonder if the killer now might think he might possibly be Will's father and this is a way to get Will's attention?  

My question is the time gap. Weren’t the first killings in the 80’s? Has to be at least about 35 years ago. I guess it might work if the killer was in his teens or early twenties. Otherwise I think the 80’s killer would be too old today to be physically overpowering today’s victims.

[isalicat]

I don't know if anyone else is having this problem, but I am watching the show on Hulu and it is cutting out (i.e. moving on to the next show in their queue) about a minute or so before the actual end of each episode. This has been going on with other shows and I have not been able to get Hulu to respond.

What is important here is: what happened in the last minute? I got through Will storming out of the conversation (reveal) with Amanda and I don't think much else. Thank you in advance!

[Irlandesa]

21 hours ago, Rickster said:

Weren’t the first killings in the 80’s? Has to be at least about 35 years ago. I guess it might work if the killer was in his teens or early twenties. Otherwise I think the 80’s killer would be too old today to be physically overpowering today’s victims.

I guess it could be a copycat.  Or maybe something stupid like Trent's long-lost twin brother (please don't be that).

19 hours ago, isalicat said:

What is important here is: what happened in the last minute? I got through Will storming out of the conversation (reveal) with Amanda and I don't think much else.

He went home and saw that his house had been ransacked.  He didn't see Billie Betty or Angie.  Then he found Billie Betty alive and well in the hamper. Angie probably put her there to keep her safe. But Angie was nowhere to be found.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Irlandesa

[Simba122504]

18 hours ago, greekmom said:

Personally I think that the killer was using Percy to find the other orphans until Percy didn't become useful anymore.  The killer defiantly has to be the regular that would paint Lucy's nails.  I wonder if he kept her alive long enough till she had Will then he dumped her and dumped Will in the trashcan.  

I also wonder if the killer now might think he might possibly be Will's father and this is a way to get Will's attention?  

I thought about the father angle too, but God, they are going full on soap in the first season?!  I too enjoyed this episode and the flashbacks. I thought MPG was a goner. I'm glad he survived. I know Angie will definitely survive, but am I a terrible person for hoping she doesn't?  

[pasdetrois]

9 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Oh, the fashion on this show!

Amanda's outfits are fabulous!

 

11 hours ago, kaygeeret said:

I had one issue this week with Amanda.  I am not hard of hearing, I heard her voice just fine, but I swear I missed 90% of her exposition.  Her speeches seemed mumbled to me as well as being spoken in a monotone and very, very quickly.

I noticed this too. I think Sonja Sohn did the same thing on The Wire.

[SnapHappy]

I loved the quick, snarky drop-in by Greg German as James.  I kept waiting for the word "Bygones"?, since he knew Mandy & Ev back in the day.

I think next week I'm going to re-watch this episode before the 2nd part.  

Will broke my heart when he was asking if his mother wanted him.  If Mandy had said something about Lucy to help him understand, it would have been better.  She didn't have to say "prostitute" right off the bat.  She could have said Lucy was just a local that fed the police information and then got in the way of the killer. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by SnapHappy

[Chaos Theory]

Yes it is a bit soap operaish but for Will Trent who has always believed he was always unwanted the only thing that might be worse is finding out is that is father is a serial killer who murdered his prostitute mother…..but to find out they both wanted him may be a darkly fascinating way to dig further into who Will Trent is.  

[EtheltoTillie]

This was really an exciting episode.  Once I realized Lucy had a baby, I thought they were going to reveal that her baby was the serial killer--not that her baby was Will!  Wow. 

[lookeyloo]

16 hours ago, kaygeeret said:

I have loved this show from the first episode, strong acting and writing.  Great tv.

I had one issue this week with Amanda.  I am not hard of hearing, I heard her voice just fine, but I swear I missed 90% of her exposition.  Her speeches seemed mumbled to me as well as being spoken in a monotone and very, very quickly.

I don't know what was wrong.  

Does anyone know if the show is being rerun on one of the streaming networks?  Hulu maybe?  I need to rewatch.

 

You are not the only one about Amanda's voice.  She seems to go silent with the end of her sentences.  We have closed captioning on to get what she is supposed to be saying.  Otherwise love the show.

[cardigirl]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

IHe went home and saw that his house had been ransacked.  He didn't see Billie or Angie.  Then he found Billie alive and well in the hamper. Angie probably put her there to keep her safe. But Angie was nowhere to be found.

Who is Billie?  Do you mean Betty, the dog? 

[cardigirl]

I have enjoyed this show, for the most part. I really like the characters, and I love when the show goes into the past. It's really well done. 

I hope Angie survives (and I worry about Betty also). Ormewood seems to be a good partner with everyone they pair him with. He and Faith were pretty good together. 

I loved having Faith's mother and Amanda having a history together. Reworking the old case, trying to see where they went wrong and if they can now catch the guy.  Amazing. 

I hope my heart is not broken by the season finale. 

[Chaos Theory]

The one line that struck me  as true is that it is a pretty good judge of character of what you donate to food drives.    Be honest how many of us have remembered last minute that our kids school, company, etc was having a food drive and searched through our cabinets and grabbed something almost out of date or that no one in the family actually liked instead of like Will Trent said a simple can of tuna or a can of chicken noodle soup.   It’s just that simple.      I don’t think people are trying to be mean.   Malcolm In The Middle had something similar it is just thoughtless like a lot of these kids and like the beats and kidney beans.  

Edited April 27, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[Orbert]

Speaking of Angie not enunciating clearly, there was a scene near the beginning of the episode where Angie said "Captain Mitchell" but mumbled it so it sounded almost like "Kevin Mitchell".  And the closed captions said "Kevin Mitchell".  Wait, what?  She was talking to Evelyn, the former Captain Mitchell.

I always assumed that closed captions were done from a script, provided by the network or something.  Are they actually done by just someone sitting there transcribing everything they hear, even if what they heard doesn't make any sense?

[EtheltoTillie]

I was worried that Will wouldn't support Angie when he realized she was dealing with a troubling lie.  He doesn't know the full extent of the lie yet, but he appears willing to go along with whatever it is in the end.  He may try to help her exonerate the girl if he finds out about it.  Will and Angie are ride or die, to use an expression.  It was so sweet how they were holding hands like little kids when going into that old house. 

[Starchild]

20 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

There is one piece of camera work that I wondered about.  When old-timey Evelyn and Amanda went to that fancy restaurant to find the old defense lawyer, at the very end the camera did a close-up on the big soup bowl that he ordered, and showed the waitress's hands placing the bowl in front of him.  Then we saw a close-up of Amanda staring.  And then they cut to when Lucy was first arrested in the police station with her handcuffs on.  The only thing I could figure to explain these close-ups is that Amanda was staring at the waitress's painted fingernails, which led to the memory of the Lucy in the station and then talking about the paint job on Lucy's nails.  Is this correct?  Cause at first I thought the point of the close-up was the soup, and there would go on to be some connection with soup, and that defense lawyer would turn out to be the bad guy.

That's the way I interpreted it, that the waitress' painted fingernails triggered the memory.

 

14 hours ago, isalicat said:

I don't know if anyone else is having this problem, but I am watching the show on Hulu and it is cutting out (i.e. moving on to the next show in their queue) about a minute or so before the actual end of each episode. This has been going on with other shows and I have not been able to get Hulu to respond.

I don't have any streaming services, but does Hulu have a setting to automatically play the next episode? Maybe if you have that enabled, there's something in the logic that jumps ahead? If so you could try turning it off to see what happens.

 

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Who is Billie?  Do you mean Betty, the dog? 

Ha. I do!

[peachmangosteen]

This show makes me wish the Emmys still recognized network TV.

The casting for young Amanda was on par with the young Angie and young Will casting. She was mimicking her voice so well and looked a lot like her. The casting for young Evelyn sorta worked but not as well as the other 3.

[pasdetrois]

20 hours ago, Orbert said:

Are they actually done by just someone sitting there transcribing everything they hear, even if what they heard doesn't make any sense?

Yes. The transcribers type as they watch the show. I've seen some real humdinger errors over the years. There are a couple of captioning companies that provide the service, and it's usually paid for by the network.

[Clanstarling]

23 hours ago, Orbert said:

Speaking of Angie not enunciating clearly, there was a scene near the beginning of the episode where Angie said "Captain Mitchell" but mumbled it so it sounded almost like "Kevin Mitchell".  And the closed captions said "Kevin Mitchell".  Wait, what?  She was talking to Evelyn, the former Captain Mitchell.

I always assumed that closed captions were done from a script, provided by the network or something.  Are they actually done by just someone sitting there transcribing everything they hear, even if what they heard doesn't make any sense?

I thought they were too, and I think some are. It could be that they went off script in the actual scene?  Closed captioning for live shows is always much worse.

20 hours ago, Starchild said:

I don't have any streaming services, but does Hulu have a setting to automatically play the next episode? Maybe if you have that enabled, there's something in the logic that jumps ahead? If so you could try turning it off to see what happens.

I watch this on Hulu too, and it doesn't skip ahead for me. I may have changed a setting - I know I was changing settings on Netflix because the autoplay drove me crazy, and I probably did in my other streamers as well. Unfortunately, I don't remember when or where I did that.

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Yes. The transcribers type as they watch the show. I've seen some real humdinger errors over the years. There are a couple of captioning companies that provide the service, and it's usually paid for by the network.

Live show transcriptions are very often unintentionally hilarious. One of the reasons we just roll with live shows and don't turn them on. But they also now have automatic transcribing software (which is used in our town for City Council meetings and such). Those are iffy at best and can be a lot of fun to watch if you're not seriously listening to the meeting.

[Starchild]

54 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Live show transcriptions are very often unintentionally hilarious. One of the reasons we just roll with live shows and don't turn them on. But they also now have automatic transcribing software (which is used in our town for City Council meetings and such). Those are iffy at best and can be a lot of fun to watch if you're not seriously listening to the meeting.

In Canada (IT) we always have a lot of different cultures working together, and a lot of different accents, people mumbling or talking fast. I have turned on transcription services but it can be wildly inaccurate. Basically if you don't have the accompanying recording you're screwed for a lot of it.

[possibilities]

Inaccurate captions have been a problem for a long time. I think it will take a class action lawsuit to improve things, because there are people who do really rely on them who are getting a lousy deal. But those kinds of legal cases are expensive and really hard to pull off, so it will probably stay bad for a long time more. Its a clear violation of principle to have lousy captioning, and clearly not a priority for any enforcement agency, so it persists.

[tennisgurl]

The lack of communication was so frustrating, but I do understand why no one was talking to each other about this investigation, which quickly turned very personal for everyone involved. I guessed that Lucy was Will's mom right before Amanda confirmed it, I guess that's one of the big reasons why she's been looking after Will all these years. She really should have told him the truth about his mom, or at least that she knew his mom, that she wanted him, and that she died before she could raise him. She didn't have to lead with her being a prostitute or that she was murdered by a serial killer, that could be a conversation for later. 

I'm worried that it will turn out that the killer is Will's biological father. Poor Will, he really doesn't need that trauma on top of everything else. 

I liked all of the 80s flashbacks with young Amanda and Faith's mom, their struggles and regrets, you can see that long history between them and how they ended up on the paths they ended up on, I would like to see some more of them later on. 

As intense as this show can get, I appreciate how they still add in moments of comedy, like when Will and Ormewood were trying to talk to Pee Pee Percival and were getting increasingly frustrated. "A seatbelt? Really?" I also loved seeing Paul, he's so messy but he cracks me up.

I knew that something happened to Angie as soon as she missed her hearing, that is one hell of a cliffhanger. At least Betty is alright! 

Edited April 28, 2023 by tennisgurl

[DEL901]

I wish Amanda could have told Will that his mother put him in the dumpster to hide him from the killer, even if it wasn’t true.  

[AnimeMania]