Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

If you live in California, that long road running from San Diego to Sonoma is El Camino Real, not the El Camino Real. "El" already means"the."

Similarly, it is an ISBN, not an "ISBN number" because that would be an International Standard Book Number number. Same with VIN.

I am a reference librarian, so when someone says something like, "I have the ISBN number," I reply, "We can look up that ISBN."

Edited September 14, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Bastet]

Family and friends watching TV with me cringe when they hear a character say "PIN number" or "ATM machine," because they know I'm about to yell at the television.

[ganesh]

I think this fits in here. When defining something, it's best not to use the word in the definition. The students do this all the time and I correct them. A stakeholder isn't someone who holds a stake in the project. 

[Actionmage]

Family and friends watching TV with me cringe when they hear a character say "PIN number" or "ATM machine," because they know I'm about to yell at the television.

So, did you even give NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service a try, or did the title angry you up too much? *g* Or CSI: Crime Scene Investigation? I am unhappy that shows think they need to explain the title in the title! I have been fairly quick to recognize when a show is telling me why it is called something, so the (to me) unnecessarily long titles hack me off.  Especially when they decide to leave off the unnecessary part, but leave the colon!  If the CSI in question is not Miami or New York or Cyberdoodle, leave off the flipping colon, huh? Save that extra 5 cents per letter space.

 

(I watched both shows for a while, but I rolled my eyes so hard for a great portion of my watching.)

[Sandman87]

A stakeholder isn't someone who holds a stake in the project.

 

stakeholder, n. a vampire hunter.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Sandman87

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think this fits in here. When defining something, it's best not to use the word in the definition. The students do this all the time and I correct them. A stakeholder isn't someone who holds a stake in the project.

Actually, according to merriam-webster.com, the definition of stakeholder is "A person or business that has invested money in something (such as a company) or "A person who holds the money that people have bet on something and then gives it to the winner."

[Portia]

Speaking of redundancies, I despise the phrase "My biggest pet peeve." I just heard Robert Irvine say it on Restaurant Impossible a few minutes ago. I say you're allowed one "pet" peeve, and all the others are just, you know, peeves.

[imagine]

I am so out of my league here but TV newscasters and radio talk show hosts over use 'as well.'

Edited September 14, 2014 by imagine

[Wings]

Speaking of redundancies, I despise the phrase "My biggest pet peeve." I just heard Robert Irvine say it on Restaurant Impossible a few minutes ago. I say you're allowed one "pet" peeve, and all the others are just, you know, peeves.

 

Ha ha ha ha ha!  good one. 

[ganesh]

I know what the literal definition of stakeholder is. I was using it as an example for my fundamental point. It also has a deeper meaning for engineering problems. 

[Brandi Maxxxx]

Speaking of redundancies, I despise the phrase "My biggest pet peeve." I just heard Robert Irvine say it on Restaurant Impossible a few minutes ago. I say you're allowed one "pet" peeve, and all the others are just, you know, peeves.

 

People can have more than one pet animal, so I guess having more than one pet peeve makes some small level of ridiculous sense. And by that logic, I say that older, single women may have as many as thirty.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Brandi Maxxxx

[Raja]

I admit to having a lot to learn in this arena but several things bug me to no end:

 

 

2. Has no one mentioned any of the Kardashian/Jenners yet? Can't believe it.  It's difficult not to wince within ten minutes of listening to ANY of them.  They are totally confused by the use of I, me, him, he, her, or she.  The typical start to any sentence or story is,  "Me and Kendall/Kylie/Khloe (fill in any name). . ."   NONE of them get this right - from the young home-schooled twit to the older supposedly college-educated deadpan twit.   Kris' grammar is slightly better but she bugs me too with her over-the-top descriptions - every event is "magical," North is "delicious," and Kanye's every burp is genius. 

 

Their self-absorption can be amusing for a bit, but watching Kim pose  (at all times, everywhere) and check out her reflection (like a Budgie bird in any mirror or reflective surface) gets to be a bore, especially when the sound must be muted to avoid hearing any of them clobber the English language.  

Well I have only actually seen her in a porn scene.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Raja

[Haleth]

I grew up in a NYC suburb and after moving to the midwest had to learn to say kwar-ter, not kwaw-ter.  And speaking of missing Rs, is there a meteorologist in this country that can pronounce "temperature?"  It is not tempachure.

[shapeshifter]

I just heard Dwight on Haven say "more than me." Whenever I hear that, I silently channel my mom correcting: More than I have.

[zillabreeze]

Portia, you made me snot my tablet! Who'd have thunk that the Grammar Nazis would be the funniest posters on this site?

Edited September 15, 2014 by zillabreeze

[Portia]

People can have more than one pet animal, so I guess having more than one pet peeve makes some small level of ridiculous sense. And by that logic, I say that older, single women may have as many as thirty.

 

Haha!  I see your point; my annoyance with "pet peeve" assumes that the phrase is defining "pet" as "favorite." 

Portia, you made me snot my tablet! Who'd have thunk that the Grammer Nazis would be the funniest posters on this site?

Oh, I'm full of surprises. Thank you. Sorry about the snot.

[Bort]

Portia, you made me snot my tablet! Who'd have thunk that the Grammer Nazis would be the funniest posters on this site?

So, you're a Frasier fan? Cheers? Kelsey Grammer in general? Sorry, I couldn't resist. But if we're going to be Grammar Nazis, we have to expect it.

[zillabreeze]

Kari Lol! I do love Frasier and normally I can spell, too! ;-)

[shapeshifter]

Tonight I heard Jay on Unforgettable begin a sentence with something like, "Me and him went to blah blah blah," but I was okay with it because the character speaks a dialect that I can only identify as Brooklynese (not an official linguistic term).

[DangerousMinds]

What bothers me about could of, should of, would of, and for all intensive purposes is that they imply, to me, the users have never read a damn book in their blighted lives. They seem like mistakes made by people who have only heard the phrases and never read them.

For all "intents and purposes."

[Brandi Maxxxx]

For all "intents and purposes."

I think you may have misunderstood. ABay was using "intensive purposes" as an example.

[DangerousMinds]

Sorry, yes, I think I missed it!

What about "deep seeded" instead of "deep seated?" I hear and see this all the time.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Speaking as a proud and glorious Newfoundlander, you guys are so lucky I don't bust out my Newfinese.  I predict at least one or two aneurysms. :)

[Shannon L.]

Newscasters strike again.  Last night I heard "There is a lot of wires down there." and, talking about the intense heat here, "How long will it be on?"  If there's an off switch, I wish someone would flick it right about now. 

 

 

What about "deep seeded" instead of "deep seated?" I hear and see this all the time.

Heh.  I never wrote that one out (don't recall seeing much either, and I read a ton) because I wasn't sure.  Seeded kind of makes sense, though, at least to me, so it's not quite as bad as things like "intensive purposes". 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Shannon L.

[Ohwell]

I'm watching The Roosevelts:  An Intimate History on PBS right now.  The narrator is Peter Coyote (who has done many narrations for PBS and other shows) and he said the dreaded word "misCHEEvious."   I can't believe that a supposedly intelligent man wouldn't know any better.  I have a headache. 

[Portia]

I'm watching The Roosevelts:  An Intimate History on PBS right now.  The narrator is Peter Coyote (who has done many narrations for PBS and other shows) and he said the dreaded word "misCHEEvious."   I can't believe that a supposedly intelligent man wouldn't know any better.  I have a headache.

I feel like I've been hit in the gut.

[shapeshifter]

Speaking as a proud and glorious Newfoundlander, you guys are so lucky I don't bust out my Newfinese.  I predict at least one or two aneurysms. :)

I love to hear Newfies talk! Grammatical mistakes only bother me when they are used by people who are otherwise speaking "standard" English.

[Sandman87]

This from an expert interviewee on tonight's PBS Newshour regarding American aid for the Ebola outbreak: "We are extremely late to the game; the house has almost burned down, and only now is the cavalry arriving." Metaphors are like drink ingredients; when you mix too many of them together, they make me throw up.

[Brandi Maxxxx]

Ugh.  I can't stand it when people misuse "myself."  When I used to watch Ghost Hunters, Jason was such a big offender, I almost couldn't stand to hear him talk.  "So Grant and myself hear a noise, and we go to investigate."  The eardrums!  They bleed!!

That seems to be my dad's pet (or pettest) grammar peeve too.

[JTMacc99]

My husband and I used to collect signs misusing quotation marks.  It is so prevalent that we became bored with the hobby. 

 

"Fried chicken" this Saturday at town common fair.  

"Free hot dog" with a fill up (at local gas station).

Interestingly, I would be much more concerned if I saw either

 

"Free" hot dog

 

or

 

Free "hot dog"

 

I'd take my chances with "Free Hot Dog" over Free "hot dog" any day.

[Aquarius]

Hee.  We had a restaurant in town that served Mexican "Food."  Talk about taking chances!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Letter to random police officer on The First 48:

 

Dear Sir,

A crime scene is not 'grizzly'. It's 'grisly'. A grizzly is a bear. 

Thank you,

Me

[zillabreeze]

It is NOT a long ROAD to hoe, it's a long ROW.

I heard "supposably" about a dozen times today on Dr. Phil. Just put an icepick in my eardrum and get it over with.

Eta: auto- correct is a bitch in this thread!

Edited September 18, 2014 by zillabreeze

[Sandman87]

Our local newscasters strike again. One of them said this while commenting on the weather this afternoon: "The sky seems so hopeful this morning when you were looking at them." I don't even know where to start with this one. Hell, I don't even know what the "them" was supposed to be. And the best thing about it is that it was the station's News Director, the person who runs the news department, who was speaking.

 

I just noticed that the Super Beta Prostate commercial tells me that taking it will mean that I will have "less urges to urinate at night." The word they're looking for is "fewer" not "less."

[Kromm]

Kore-ters as in quarters?  How else would it be said?  That may be a northeastern regional accent thing as I pronounce it the same way.

This is, I think, New York Tri-State Area most of all. That said, I doubt it's misunderstood anywhere else.

[slensam]

I'm originally from Jersey and always pronounced quarters like kore-ters. Never thought anything about it. Strange. Joisey!

[Wings]

Interestingly, I would be much more concerned if I saw either

 

"Free" hot dog

 

or

 

Free "hot dog"

 

I'd take my chances with "Free Hot Dog" over Free "hot dog" any day.

 

 

Come to think of it, it could have been "free" hot dog.  It has been years and my memory is hazy.  

[Aquarius]

This is, I think, New York Tri-State Area most of all. That said, I doubt it's misunderstood anywhere else.

 

I've been obsessing over how I say it since first reading about Alyssa Milano's pronunciation.  I can't tell if I'm saying "kwar-ters" because i am aware now, but "kore-ters" doesn't sound bad to me, so maybe that is how I naturally say it.  I'm in New Jersey.

[shapeshifter]

Come to think of it, it could have been "free" hot dog.  It has been years and my memory is hazy.

Truth in advertising, then, since it was likely not really "free."

[Rick Kitchen]

It is NOT a long ROAD to hoe, it's a long ROW.

I heard "supposably" about a dozen times today on Dr. Phil. Just put an icepick in my eardrum and get it over with.

Eta: auto- correct is a bitch in this thread!

 

I was watching a soap opera yesterday with the closed captioning on, and one of the actors kept saying "supposably", and the captioning kept rendering it as "supposedly".

[Ohwell]

I'm watching the latest installment of The Roosevelts:  An Intimate History.  Apparently, someone got to Peter Coyote.  He was describing their dog, Fala, and called it mischievous--and he pronounced the word correctly.  Yay!

[Kromm]

I'm watching the latest installment of The Roosevelts:  An Intimate History.  Apparently, someone got to Peter Coyote.  He was describing their dog, Fala, and called it mischievous--and he pronounced the word correctly.  Yay!

Mis-chev-us vs. Mis-chieve-e-us?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Kromm

[Bastet]

Poor Peter Coyote (well, had he not brought it on himself).  I had lunch yesterday with a group of friends and it turned out all of us were watching the Roosevelts documentary ... it also turned out all of us are fans of Coyote, especially his voice, but were distracted by that mispronunciation.  I'll be ridiculously pleased by the correction in tonight's offering.

[zillabreeze]

Could someone help me - I'll be catching up with The Roosevelt's tonight. I have heard mischievous pronounced with three and four syllables, online Websters shows either to be okay. How does Peter Coyote mispronounce?

[Wings]

Could someone help me - I'll be catching up with The Roosevelt's tonight. I have heard mischievous pronounced with three and four syllables, online Websters shows either to be okay. How does Peter Coyote mispronounce?

 

 

Webster adds new pronunciations over time when they become a main stream mistake.  The first definition and pronunciation is the one that has been correct up until people who refused to go with it use it over and over and over and over.

 

They also add to the definitions. Gay, is a good example of that. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by wings707

[Ohwell]

I really don't understand why online Websters could say that either pronunciation is correct.  All you have to do is look at the spelling.  I'm assuming that Websters still acknowledges that the correct spelling is "mischievous."  There is no "i" in the last syllable, "vous."  Therefore, I could never understand how the word was mispronounced in the first place. 
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[Wings]

I really don't understand why online Websters could say that either pronunciation is correct.  All you have to do is look at the spelling.  I'm assuming that Websters still acknowledges that the correct spelling is "mischievous."  There is no "i" in the last syllable, "vous."  Therefore, I could never understand how the word was mispronounced in the first place. 





 

 

Because they made it correct with their policy to include "mistakes" that have repeated over a long period of time.  The English language has been changing for centuries and continues.  

[Ohwell]

I know the English language has been changing, but the point of my post is the spelling of the word.  I haven't seen Websters online, but, as I said, if the spelling of the word is the same, then I don't see how anyone could pronounce it "mis-chee-vee-ous." 

 

Edit:  OK, so I went to Websters online:

 

"Usage Discussion of MISCHIEVOUS

A pronunciation \mis-ˈchē-vē-əs\ and a consequent spelling mischievious are of long standing: evidence for the spelling goes back to the 16th century. Our pronunciation files contain modern attestations ranging from dialect speakers to Herbert Hoover. But both the pronunciation and the spelling are still considered nonstandard."

 

I bolded the last sentence. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Ohwell

[Ohwell]

One last thing:  If you go to other online dictionary websites, there's a little microphone icon that you click on to hear the proper pronunciation of the word.  On each one of those sites, the voice says "MIS-chie-vous."  Not "Mis-CHE-VEE-ous."

 

Ok, I'm done beating the dead horse. : )

[shapeshifter]

One last thing: If you go to other online dictionary websites, there's a little microphone icon that you click on to hear the proper pronunciation of the word. On each one of those sites, the voice says "MIS-chie-vous." Not "Mis-CHE-VEE-ous."

Ok, I'm done beating the dead horse. : )

Trigger: Thank God!

The four syllable version sounds wrong to me, but no more wrong than the the flat-a pronunciation of pajamas. I learned at age 10 when moving to the midwest, that the taste of water and milk were different, as was the sound of many words, and even the words themselves, for example, "jelly donut" (or jelly doughnut) on the east coast and "Bismarck" in the midwest. Sometimes it is necessary to use the local vernacular in order to communicate and make alliances.

On TV, should we expect to always hear the most common pronunciation? Was that ever the case? I think in the early days of "talkies" actors probably did all sound the same. They even changed their names to sound more uniformly WASPy. But now we have all kind of accents and dialects, which I believe give flavor to setting and fictional personalities, and are useful to clarify the differences in scene changes and characters.

Still, when a character/actor delivers an entire monologue using the pronunciations to which I am familiar and then throws in a word I would expect to hear differently, it is like hearing a wrong note in a piano solo. In both cases, I twitch a little and then try to forget it.

Trigger: Are you done now?

Edited September 21, 2014 by shapeshifter