Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[walnutqueen]

The Colbert Report had a clip of Sean Hannity saying "literally" literally at least a dozen times. I thought of you all. It should be up at the Comedy Central site by now. It begins with the little "apparently" kid. This might work.

 

I immediately thought of this thread when I watched the show this morning, ABay.  Hilarious.

[potatoradio]

I spent my lunch hour reading this and either cracking up or nodding vehemently. I think I literally just hashtag fell in love with this incredible thread and its amazing people.

 

Dear Survivor: I get it. You have to condense a lot of stupid footage into an hour. However, there are more efficient ways to do this other than eliminating innocent, monosyllabic articles from speech. "The reward" really takes no longer to say than "you win reward." When you eliminate those nice little words, people sound like a combination of Captain Caveman and JarJar Binks.

 

Dear Various Cooking Shows: I've complained about you before, and I don't hesitate to do so again. Just STOP using verbs as nouns (e.g., "the cook on that sauce is hashtag amazing" or "the bake on those brownies is Oh Em Gee."). You see - it's confusing. When you tell a contestant "the cook on this dish is great," I think you're saying that the contestant is great, which may be true, but I don't care. I care about the dish.

 

Dear Sports Announcers: You are not being creative when you misuse adjectives. I actually don't know what in h*ll you're trying to do, but wow: "The compete level he brings to this game is second to none!" or "The battle level of this game has reached a fever pitch!" Go back to your Verb of the Day cheatsheet. It's plenty entertaining (and causes me fewer figurative earbleeds) to hear you say "the puck caromed past the blue line!" or "he skitters into the corner."

 

Other peeves:

 

But/however -- not interchangeable sentence ingredients.

Irregardless - regardless of how important that "ir" prefix seems to be, it's really not.

Ending sentences with "at." - Where's my money at? I dare you to cut off that last word and see if your meaning is lost. Really.

 

I was completely confused the first time I heard someone shorten the phrase "she drives me crazy" to "she drives." I think I may have asked what she drove or if driving was a really big deal in these parts.

 

"Whatev," "Totes" - you kids git off my lawn with your malarky speak.

 

I remember when the whole "har-RASS-ment"/ "HAIR-ass-ment" (oh my -- look at fun with phonetic spelling) controversy got going (thanks, Clarence Thomas!)-- a few news shows actually talked about the word and seemed interested in debating its pronunciation. It was interesting. Alas, from what I've read here, it appears that news shows are lucky to even use words correctly, let alone conduct language debates.

 

I will freely admit that I spent more time on this post than I did on my GRE analytical writing. It is a little intimidating to post on a grammar thread!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RubyWoo72]

Heard this just now: "Your Honor, we had boughten houses together..."

No.

[Ohwell]

According to Websters "loan" is both a noun AND a verb.

Hmmm...makes one wonder why they're called "lending" institutions and not "loaning" institutions. 

[Kromm]

Because both are correct.

If I had to guess why lending is applied in that circumstance, I'd guess maybe it has to do with big parts of our financial theory and practices coming from the English (who dropped the use of loan as a verb, even if America didn't).

[ABay]

The distinction between "bring" and "take" seems to have vanished.

 

It also seems that very few people understand how to use "underestimate" and "overestimate." I first noticed the problem in an ad for a dentist or something similar. One of the spokespeople earnestly informed us that "you can never underestimate the power of a smile". I've noticed it so often since then that I wonder if I'm the one getting it wrong?

[dcalley]

That should be "et al."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Heard this just now: "Your Honor, we had boughten houses together..."

No.

If it makes you feel better, boughten is actually a word, but it's kind of like thrice, in that people don't use it anymore. They didn't use it to talk about buying a house, though.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Bastet]

"Miami is nice, so I'll say it thrice."

 

Sorry, Golden Girls moment there.

 

I just heard this in a commercial, and it seems fairly rampant these days:  Saying "There is" or "There's" and then following with something that should be preceded by "There are" instead.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Hah, @Bastet, I was thinking that myself.

 

"Thrice? Who the hell says thrice?"

[RubyWoo72]

Fusstrating is another offense.

[Kromm]

Fusstrating is another offense.

Hah! Finally another of these I can bring back to actual TV!

Hell's Kitchen this season had a Cheftestant who did that one better and kept saying "Flustrating!"

[Sandman87]

"Miami is nice, so I'll say it thrice."

 

Sorry, Golden Girls moment there.

I suddenly had a vision of Bea Arthur showing up in a Candyman-like horror sequence.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Sandman87

[merylinkid]

Speaking of sports announcers -- for a couple years they were saying "he defensed the ball"in football.  Yes they made a noun into a verb when there is a perfectly good verb for what they were trying to say already.   Really is that that hard  to say "he defended the ball?"   Fortunately, someone smacked them with a grammar book this year and they no longer do it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Speaking of sports, basketball player Charles Shackleford was interviewed years ago after an NC State game, and he was quoted as saying, "I can shoot with my left hand, I can shoot with my right hand. I'm amphibious."

[Joe]

Speaking of sports, basketball player Charles Shackleford was interviewed years ago after an NC State game, and he was quoted as saying, "I can shoot with my left hand, I can shoot with my right hand. I'm amphibious."

Not only can he shoot with both hands, he can breathe underwater. I'm not sure how that's useful in basketball, but it's still a nifty skill. Maybe he should try water polo.

[OSM Mom]

I'm sick of sports announcers using the word "healthy" to mean physically sound or uninjured. It just grates.

[yourpointis]

I spent my lunch hour reading this and either cracking up or nodding vehemently. I think I literally just hashtag fell in love with this incredible thread and its amazing people.

 

 

 

Was the experience surreal? : )

[Kromm]

I think newscasters, newspaper writers & columnists and such all use healthy that way too.

Is is actually incorrect rather than just annoying? One of the sub-definitions is "fit".

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I haven't watched the show in a couple of months, but on General Hospital the character of Sonny Corinthos used to say 'ma-nipple-late' instead of manipulate. I'm sure he still does it. The man needs a diction coach.

[RubyWoo72]

True crime show narrators can stop pondering aloud whether there's "something far more sinister" afoot. The answer is always yes.

[walnutqueen]

True crime show narrators can stop pondering aloud whether there's "something far more sinister" afoot. The answer is always yes.

 

And almost everyone commenting on the crime says "things like this don't happen in our sleepy little town".  Bullshit.  Nice small towns are fucking magnets for depraved killers!

[Sandman87]

The local newscast never fails to deliver. From a report on a rollover accident: "The identity of the two people have not been release." Yes, that's exactly what the anchor-person said. They're approaching the point where the grammar errors will outnumber the words.

[RubyWoo72]

I saw someone on a reunion show today do air quotes, which I already hate. But this person did what I see lots of people do, which is do the finger-curl twice. It bothers me because that would be like assigning two sets of quotation marks on each side of the word/phrase, literally making it look like ""this"".

[Sandman87]

More of a lack-of-vocabulary offense than anything else: Last night PBS News Hour devoted the entire last segment to a discussion of gerrymandering, complete with an interview. The only problem is that not once did they or the interviewee introduce the word "gerrymandering" into the segment, so that every time they wanted to refer to it they had to resort to some clunky construction such as "redrawing the boundaries of voting districts for political gain." By the time the segment was over, they could have shaved off a good minute of it just by defining "gerrymandering" at the beginning, and then using it.

[shapeshifter]

Oh man. Have I been saying this phrase incorrectly? I always thought it was a "tough ROW to hoe," as in when someone's trying to plant rows of corn or something, and there's a patch of bad soil that makes it hard as hell to use a hoe.

Or does it mean that Working Girls picked a particularly crowded/ desolate stretch of road on which to ply their trade?

I's confused. Lol!

No, you're right, it should be "tough row to hoe". Some people misrepresent it as road, which makes me giggle.

LOL @RubyWoo72 ! I swear I typed "row," but Internet gremlins changed it to "road." Well, maybe not, but I was picturing hoeing a row in a garden when I typed it. Honestly, nothing else!

[Kromm]

So what's the judgment here?  Which is worse?  "One thousand percent" or "a hundred and fifty percent"?

 

Yeah, I know.  Equally bad.  The moment one hundred percent of something became some kind of minimum, we were doomed.

[ethalfrida]

It's fort ay.  (There's an accent over the e.)  I'm pretty sure Galax-arena accidentally omitted a word in her sentence. 

 

But now I'm dying to hear someone say "That's just not my fort." 

fortay is a musical term. Forte is pronounced as fort.

[supposebly]

I'm not an English native speaker but as a linguist, the /fort/ vs. /forte/ problem had me intrigued, so I looked it up. So, apologies for geekage in advance.

 

"strength" in Modern French is spelled fort, but pronounced without the /t/ sound.

 

Whatever the pronunciation in English is, it's different from the French word.

 

The etymological dictionary tells me that it was borrowed from Middle French mid 15th century (I don't know what the pronunciation was but I imagine it was with the /t/) and spelled fort and the /e/ in the spelling was added in the 18th century in analogy to the Italian spelling. Possibly because people already pronounced it like the Italian /forte/ at the time?

The etymological dictionary tells me that the musical term forte is borrowed from Italian and thus the /t/ and the /e/ is pronounced in Italian.

 

Apparently, Modern English "strength, one's strong point" is spelled forte and pronounced with a vowel (either /e/ or /a/) according to Merriam Webster which covers usually Standard North American. Don't ask me to define that.

When pronounced without the /e/ sound, it means "the part of a sword or foil blade that is between the middle and the hilt and that is the strongest part of the blade"..

Edited August 16, 2014 by supposebly

[Sandman87]

Someone needs to tell every single frickin' politician and news person in the world that an individual soldier is not a troop. A troop is a group of soldiers. If they have to invoke some variation of the T-word for individuals, they should use "trooper" instead.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Sandman87

[giovannif7]

From the dictionary.reference.com "troop" definition - note #5

 

 

noun
1. an assemblage of persons or things; company; band.
2. a great number or multitude: A whole troop of children swarmed through the museum.
3. Military. an armored cavalry or cavalry unit consisting of two or more platoons and a headquarters group.
4. troops, a body of soldiers, police, etc.: Mounted troops quelled the riot.
5. a single soldier, police officer, etc.: Three troops were killed today by a roadside bomb.
6. a unit of Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts usually having a maximum of 32 members under the guidance of an adult leader.
7. a herd, flock, or swarm.
8. Archaic. a band or troupe of actors.

 

I think your beef is with the dictionary people.

[shapeshifter]

Someone needs to tell every single frickin' politician and news person in the world that an individual soldier is not a troop. A troop is a group of soldiers. If they have to invoke some variation of the T-word for individuals, they should use "trooper" instead.

From the dictionary.reference.com "troop" definition - note #5

...I think your beef is with the dictionary people.

If I live long enough, I will be able to afford to retire. Until then, I will enjoy my access to the Oxford English Dictionary Online.

So. Although the definition of troop as a single soldier was not added to the OED until 1993, the earliest reference to that usage recorded in the OED in 1993 was from 1832. My ancestors didn't speak English then, so I'll leave it to y'all to discuss.

Draft additions 1993

Chiefly in sing. [irreg. < the collect. plural: in some cases perhaps abbrev. of trooper n.] A member of a troop of soldiers (or other servicemen); a soldier, a trooper. colloq. (chiefly Mil.).

1832 B. Hall Fragments of Voy. & Trav. (ed. 2) 2nd Ser. iv. 124 The monkey stowed himself away..till the same marine passed.., and laid hold of him by the calf of the leg... As the wounded ‘troop’ was not much hurt, a sort of truce was proclaimed.

1947 D. M. Davin Gorse blooms Pale 193 Can you spare a bite for a front-line troop?

1973 T. O'Brien If I die in Combat Zone xxii. 189 ‘You don't smoke dope, do you, troop?’ ‘No, no sir!’

Edited August 17, 2014 by shapeshifter

[galax-arena]

Apparently, Modern English "strength, one's strong point" is spelled forte and pronounced with a vowel (either /e/ or /a/) according to Merriam Webster which covers usually Standard North American.

Merriam Webster says that forte is “often” pronounced with a vowel, which IMO is a small but important distinction, as it simply indicates popular usage. And, well, that’s true; as I said, they’re basically presenting a very descriptive use of language, as do most if not all dictionaries. Dictionaries don't really give too much of a shit about prescriptivism other than as a means of presenting historical footnotes. Insert another rant about the recent inclusion of "selfie" into the Oxford Dicationary. Yeah, I realize that adhering to prescriptivist linguistics is a good way for a language to die out. I have nothing against new words on principle. I don't even have anything against English's tendency to bastardize loan words; I pronounce Notre Dame as "noter daym" like almost every other American. But man do I hate "selfie" and "fortay." (I am cackling over the inclusion of "mansplain" and "neckbeard" though. Hee hee hee.)

 

I don't think any of the people here complaining about "fortay" are laboring under the assumption that most people don't pronounce it that way. That's why we're complaining about it, lol. 

 

Whatever the pronunciation in English is, it's different from the French word.

French also has “forte” for feminine words! Although I guess initially we stole it from the masculine version. 

 

ETA: Wait, another word added to Oxford this year was "amazeballs." No, no, NO. 

 

ETA 2: And “YOLO”? Oxford, you’re killing me. I’m good with “humblebrag," though. 

Edited August 18, 2014 by galax-arena

[ToxicUnicorn]

ETA: Wait, another word added to Oxford this year was "amazeballs." No, no, NO.

 

What progress.  That's just great.  Imagine this:

 

"But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?

It is the east, and Juliet is amazeballs."

[galax-arena]

Hey, just wait, one of these days we’re going to get the complete works of Shakespeare translated into textspeak.

 

“romeo romeo y r u romeo?!?”

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

(I am cackling over the inclusion of "mansplain" and "neckbeard" though. Hee hee hee.)

I saw the term 'mansplaining' in another thread and meant to bring the post over here, but I quoted it in the wrong thread, so I deleted it. I'm not sure how I feel about the inclusion of it, although I know its a 'thing'. IMO, it implies that any time a man corrects a woman, which I have done, the only possible explanation for it is that its because the guy thinks the woman is dumb and/or inferior as opposed to just, y'know, being incorrect. I do know that's why it happens sometimes, but the fact that a word was coined to describe it seems like a blanket statement, and I don't care for it.

[galax-arena]

it implies that any time a man corrects a woman, which I have done, the only possible explanation for it is that its because the guy thinks the woman is dumb and/or inferior as opposed to just, y'know, being incorrect.

I don't see how it implies anything of the sort. Mansplaining does not apply to every single situation in which a man corrects a woman. It’s when the guy assumes that the woman is ignorant or knows less about the subject due to her gender that it turns into mansplaining. And it’s often pretty obvious when the guy thinks that, although of course rarely will anyone admit it. (“No, he’s just a condescending jerk to everyone, really!”) As a woman, I’ve become pretty good at picking them out. You see it a lot when guys try to discuss feminism in particular.

Edited August 18, 2014 by galax-arena

[Cobalt Stargazer]

It’s when the guy assumes that the woman is ignorant or knows less about the subject due to her gender that it turns into mansplaining.

 

But how do you tell the difference? Unless someone is a mind-reader, there's pretty much no way to tell what another person is thinking, and again I don't care for the idea of someone telling me they know what's in my head better than I do. Aren't presumptions over intent supposed to be a bad thing?

[VillaVillekulla]

One of the big things is the tone of voice. Much harder to discern over the internet, true. But believe me, as a woman, when you're talking to someone face-to-face it's very easy to figure out when you're being condescended to. A man correcting a woman or explaining something to her isn't automatically mansplaining. It's all about the tone and the intent.

[Bort]

Well it's also getting stuff explained to you that they should know you have a clue about. For instance, just this weekend I had TWO men tell me I needed to disconnect my car's battery (because it had a hot wire somewhere) so it wouldn't get run down to dead. I'm a helicopter mechanic, they KNOW I'm a helicopter mechanic, why are they telling me this?

[The Crazed Spruce]

While I hate "mansplaining" (both the word and the concept), we're getting way off-topic here.  Let's try to keep it to television discussion here, okay?

[ABay]

Under the "I've heard it both ways" column: Muslim. Alex Trebek always says Muslim with a long u, as in...you. Whereas I've heard news anchors pronounce it with a short u as in muslin. I don't have a preference, I just want some consistency.

[OSM Mom]

There are a few newscasters here who have started leaving the letter t out of words like mountain. It's maddening.

[Portia]

There are a few newscasters here who have started leaving the letter t out of words like mountain. It's maddening.

I believe that's called T-glottalization, and in the U. S. it's pretty widespread.  I'm no linguist--just your average bitchy English teacher--but I would argue that the glottalization of the T in "mountain" is nothing more than a minor pronunciation variance.  A hard T in the word "button" sounds downright funny to me.

[legaleagle53]

Heard this just now: "Your Honor, we had boughten houses together..."

No.

Actually, "boughten" is a legitimate version of the past participle of "buy," albeit an archaic one that I personally haven't seen in print in at least 40 years.

[legaleagle53]

I'm not an English native speaker but as a linguist, the /fort/ vs. /forte/ problem had me intrigued, so I looked it up. So, apologies for geekage in advance.

 

"strength" in Modern French is spelled fort, but pronounced without the /t/ sound.

 

Whatever the pronunciation in English is, it's different from the French word.

 

The etymological dictionary tells me that it was borrowed from Middle French mid 15th century (I don't know what the pronunciation was but I imagine it was with the /t/) and spelled fort and the /e/ in the spelling was added in the 18th century in analogy to the Italian spelling. Possibly because people already pronounced it like the Italian /forte/ at the time?

The etymological dictionary tells me that the musical term forte is borrowed from Italian and thus the /t/ and the /e/ is pronounced in Italian.

 

Apparently, Modern English "strength, one's strong point" is spelled forte and pronounced with a vowel (either /e/ or /a/) according to Merriam Webster which covers usually Standard North American. Don't ask me to define that.

When pronounced without the /e/ sound, it means "the part of a sword or foil blade that is between the middle and the hilt and that is the strongest part of the blade"..

 

Not quite.  Fort ("strong") is also spelled forte in French (and the t is pronounced as a result) when it's the feminine form of the adjective.  Only the masculine form is spelled without the final e and pronounced as though the t weren't there.  Otherwise, you'd never be able to tell the difference in gender in speech.

[Shannon L.]

 

There are a few newscasters here who have started leaving the letter t out of words like mountain. It's maddening.

I believe that's called T-glottalization, and in the U. S. it's pretty widespread.  I'm no linguist--just your average bitchy English teacher--but I would argue that the glottalization of the T in "mountain" is nothing more than a minor pronunciation variance.  A hard T in the word "button" sounds downright funny to me.

 

I had pronouncing the "t" in the middle of the words drilled into my head my entire childhood, so I tend to be bothered by the lack of "t" sounds in almost everything, but even I'll admit that I slip sometimes when it comes to words like "button" (even though, most times, when I do, I hear my mom in the back of my mind :).  But words like mountain, or my son's name, Dalton...it just sounds wrong and bothers me when people skip over it.  Also, I don't know why, but with some words it feels funny to add the "t" in the middle and in others, the "t" sound in the middle feels fine. I'm sure it has to do with the preceding letter sound. 

[Qoass]

I understand that language evolves with usage but a part of me died when I heard on the news that dictionaries had thrown in the towel on "hopefully".

 

Correct:  "Do you think we'll win a million dollars?", she asked hopefully.

 

Incorrect:  "Hopefully, we'll win a million dollars!", she exclaimed.

 

I am hopeful that I will learn to let it go.

 

That said, I feel all newscasters as well as all characters playing high-end professionals such as doctors, lawyers and writers should celebrate proper usage.  Surely at least ONE doctor on Grey's Anatomy would know to request that a patient LIE down rather than lay down, right?

 

I blame spell check for many new iterations of the language too.  Or to.  Or two.  Only the typist knows for sure!  My local news station seems to employ someone wholly unfamiliar with the English language to write the scroll at the bottom of the screen because not a morning goes by without some egregious typo.  Then again, this is the same station that has a meteorologist who insists on describing weather as "blase".  (I know there's an accent over the "e", but the keyboard I'm on won't do that.)  I can be blase about the weather but I'm hard-pressed to understand how Mother Nature can just wake up one day and say, "You know, I'm just so bored with occasional flurries...".  Maybe she would say "I just can't with the flurries." but that makes me squirm as well.

 

This will get me beaten down, I'm sure, but I also roll my eyes at folks who seem to have become British since getting on the internet.  I met a ginger whilst on holiday from uni, you say?  You're from Pittsburgh.  You met a redhead on spring break.

 

I know it's much too much to hope for but someday TMZ will use a comma in a caption and I will exult in frabjous joy.  (TM Lewis Carroll)

[jodo]

Not only that, it's been further reduced to "sammy". I have been to restaurants that have Sammys on the menu. Makes me not want to order a single damn thing.

and thank Rachel Ray for that too!  She says sammy all the time, annoying!

[potatoradio]

 

and thank Rachel Ray for that too!  She says sammy all the time, annoying!

There's a special place in hell for Rachael Ray. Demons glistening with EVOO will ask her if she'd like a sammy wammy with the cwustee wustees cut off before her nappy wappy. Then, when she goes beddee weddee, they'll slather her with ranch dressing and throw her bonesie wonsies in the garbage bowl.

 

Cute food terms are so rarely cute unless unless you're a parent trying to play airplane with a toddler. Shut up and make a sandwich.

 

New rule for any talking heads: if you can't speak without hiccuping the word "like" (or, worse, "liiiiiiiiiiiiike") every second, you are not allowed on camera. I apologize on behalf of my generation for the Valley Girl phrases, but it's not our fault that this word has become the German cockroach of sentence structure.  If you're not introducing a simile or expressing your appreciation for something/someone, how about you take a minute to pause, breathe, and actually put together a coherent sentence instead of treating a perfectly fine word like a verbal comma or ellipsis?