Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Where I live (southern Appalachia)

But how do you pronounce "Appalachia"? ;-)

[MaryMitch]

2 hours ago, Moose135 said:

But how do you pronounce "Appalachia"? ;-)

App-al-LATCH-ia, of course!

[Ohwell]

17 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Where I live (southern Appalachia) I hear "misCHEEvious" all the time; I had teachers who pronounced it that way.

Wow, the teachers pronounce it that way?  That's so sad for the children.

[MaryMitch]

My point was that - to me - it's a regional pronunciation.

[StatisticalOutlier]

For the "literally" pedants here, enjoy:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally

[ABay]

The first time I heard someone here in Connecticut say "liberry", I thought they were joking around. Nope. That's just the way some folks around here say it. I wonder what a liberry tastes like? A cross between blueberry and old catalog cards?

[Sandman87]

Been seeing a commercial lately that advertises a sale where the announcer says "This sale will end Presidents' Day!", so I guess there aren't going to be any more Presidents' Days.

One of the reporters on tonight's news told us about an additional route being added from the airport by one of the smaller airlines, and mentioned that they'd use "a brand new sixty feet plane." I'm trying to decide whether it's going to look like some sort of flying centipede, or they're just going to have holes in the floor for the passengers to stick their legs out of in place of having landing gear.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Sandman87 said:

Been seeing a commercial lately that advertises a sale where the announcer says "This sale will end Presidents' Day!", so I guess there aren't going to be any more Presidents' Days. . . .

One can hope! Oh. That was no more "Presidents' Day," not "President's days." Shucks.

1 hour ago, Sandman87 said:

. . . One of the reporters on tonight's news told us about an additional route being added from the airport by one of the smaller airlines, and mentioned that they'd use "a brand new sixty feet plane." I'm trying to decide whether it's going to look like some sort of flying centipede, or they're just going to have holes in the floor for the passengers to stick their legs out of in place of having landing gear.

Haha! Love the mental pictures! The POTUS did reportedly visit Boeing today. Maybe the craziness has taken a turn toward the whimsical? I will hope so.

[Shannon L.]

I was rewatching The West Wing and the other day I was surprised to see a dedicated Catholic president, played by a dedicated Catholic actor say something about "the book of RevelationS"!

Edited February 19, 2017 by Shannon L.

[Haleth]

Two from the local news: A caption that read "Boilermakers to tough for Michigan."  I guess grammar is too tough for the graphics guy. (Whatever he's called.)  Then today the anchor was reading the TelePrompTer and said the accusation was repungeant, instead of repugnant. I guess that means it stinks. 

[topanga]

According to online dictionaries, "amongst" is an acceptable word. But it keeps getting underlined by spell check--even now, I'm staring at a big, ugly red line on my post. And I hear it often on TV, especially on the news. So why do MS Word, PreviouslyTV, and Facebook keep telling me I'm spelling "among" wrong?

[orza]

2 hours ago, topanga said:

According to online dictionaries, "amongst" is an acceptable word. But it keeps getting underlined by spell check--even now, I'm staring at a big, ugly red line on my post. And I hear it often on TV, especially on the news. So why do MS Word, PreviouslyTV, and Facebook keep telling me I'm spelling "among" wrong?

British vs. American usage.

[riley702]

I find myself using both.

[shapeshifter]

19 hours ago, orza said:

22 hours ago, topanga said:

According to online dictionaries, "amongst" is an acceptable word. But it keeps getting underlined by spell check--even now, I'm staring at a big, ugly red line on my post. And I hear it often on TV, especially on the news. So why do MS Word, PreviouslyTV, and Facebook keep telling me I'm spelling "among" wrong?

British vs. American usage.

 

15 hours ago, riley702 said:

I find myself using both.

Yes, anything to make the spell checker go away. Well, almost anything. Like canceled v. cancelled.

[mojito]

Question for anyone who really keeps up on what's acceptable English these days (any editors out there?). Every time I ask my old editor questions like this, she suggests re-writing the sentence. But I wanna know if anyone has passed legislation on this usage!

"Ask the customer their name." 

"The caller said that they didn't receive the last bill."

It's so widespread in manuals and instructions, I'm wondering if it has become acceptable. 

[supposebly]

This is probably the closest to what we might call language "legislation".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/08/donald-trump-may-win-this-years-word-of-the-year/

Adopted in the style guide in 2015.

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, mojito said:

Question for anyone who really keeps up on what's acceptable English these days (any editors out there?). Every time I ask my old editor questions like this, she suggests re-writing the sentence. But I wanna know if anyone has passed legislation on this usage!

"Ask the customer their name." 

"The caller said that they didn't receive the last bill."

It's so widespread in manuals and instructions, I'm wondering if it has become acceptable. 

I think the grammarians have pretty much given up on this one, since the quest for gender-neutral terms has made people all but eliminate the use of the masculine singular as a generic term, so this has been adopted by default as an alternative to the "he or she," "his or her," and "him or her" constructions which, though gender-inclusive, are considered somewhat awkward and stilted.

Besides, I seem to recall reading recently that the use of "they/their/them" as a common-gender singular pronoun has actually been around for several centuries.  In other words, it isn't a new thing at all.

Edited March 3, 2017 by legaleagle53

[mojito]

Quote

In other words, it isn't a new thing at all.

Right. And English teachers have been trying for centuries to put an end to they/their, too, I bet. Teachers and editors are a tenacious lot.

I (mis)use they/their in conversation, though when writing for myself, I go old school and use his or he. In corporate training, many of the developers give names to hypothetical characters (Sue wants to....ask her...) and they'll alternate with male and female names on other screens.

Wow. Grammarians have waved the white flag. Sounds like this new law is a done deal. Hell has frozen over. Somewhere there is a grave that Miss Thistlebottom is rolling in. (Sorry, Miss Thistlebottom, I couldn't resist that last sentence.)

Okay, here's something that I hear in American and British English speech all the time. 

"Try and do it" as opposed to "try to do it". The first one seems pretty awkward, but I rarely hear people say "to".  One can justify the former all he wants (are you happy now, Miss T?) but the latter is more precise.

Edited March 3, 2017 by mojito

[ari333]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 1:24 PM, Petunia13 said:

with PROTEIN!

[Sandman87]

From a great height!

[Sandman87]

Local news...again:

"Toyota has a new virgin of the Prius." I'm informed that there is such a thing as a non-virginal car. (Some day I'd like to own a Prius, which I will modify so that the exhaust pip goes up and over the passenger side of the compartment. I'll call it the Priapus.)

The news anchor also informed us that a late local celebrity was interned in the cemetery today. And you thought your job was bad...

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

. . . The news anchor also informed us that a late local celebrity was interned in the cemetery today. And you thought your job was bad...

Ha! Hey, I laugh because sometimes it is!

[ari333]

10 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

Local news...again:

"Toyota has a new virgin of the Prius." I'm informed that there is such a thing as a non-virginal car. (Some day I'd like to own a Prius, which I will modify so that the exhaust pip goes up and over the passenger side of the compartment. I'll call it the Priapus.)

The news anchor also informed us that a late local celebrity was interned in the cemetery today. And you thought your job was bad...

Bwahahahahaha!

[meep.meep]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:55 PM, Sandman87 said:

Local news...again:

"Toyota has a new virgin of the Prius." I'm informed that there is such a thing as a non-virginal car. (Some day I'd like to own a Prius, which I will modify so that the exhaust pip goes up and over the passenger side of the compartment. I'll call it the Priapus.)

The news anchor also informed us that a late local celebrity was interned in the cemetery today. And you thought your job was bad...

Now there's something Pope Lenny could have gotten behind:  The Virgin of the Prius.

At my job we have the opposite of interns, we have emeriti.  Some of them are ready for the cemetery.

[Sandman87]

Tonight the local news reported that students in a cooking class are making colonary masterpieces. "Let me taste it...oh my god...this isn't fudge!"

I'm getting mighty sick of a trend in news programs, both national and local, where reporters tell us that they "reached out" to a person or organization when all they did was try to contact them for information. Stop it! You didn't "reach out." Stop trying to spin it as if you were doing them a big favor.

I'd like to give a special English language middle finger to one of the local reporters who is absolutely incapable of pronouncing the letter "t" unless it occurs at the beginning or end of a word. "Hillary Clin'un took a selfie while holding a ki'un at an animal shel'er."

[ari333]

This will make me sound bitchy, but it's not the first time. :-)

I hate apostrophe S when it calls for a plural. Then sometimes there needs to be an apostrophe and ...wait for it.... there isn't one..

Random example: "All the dancer's are so talented." "I wish all dentist's were on time." "Maybe all the family's can get together for a reunion."

"The drivers record is very good."

I know I make typos and no one is perfect, but I see this so much.

14 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

Tonight the local news reported that students in a cooking class are making colonary masterpieces. "Let me taste it...oh my god...this isn't fudge!"

I'm getting mighty sick of a trend in news programs, both national and local, where reporters tell us that they "reached out" to a person or organization when all they did was try to contact them for information. Stop it! You didn't "reach out." Stop trying to spin it as if you were doing them a big favor.

I'd like to give a special English language middle finger to one of the local reporters who is absolutely incapable of pronouncing the letter "t" unless it occurs at the beginning or end of a word. "Hillary Clin'un took a selfie while holding a ki'un at an animal shel'er."

Yikes.
 

Edited March 17, 2017 by ari333

[bilgistic]

On 3/16/2017 at 9:54 PM, Sandman87 said:

I'd like to give a special English language middle finger to one of the local reporters who is absolutely incapable of pronouncing the letter "t" unless it occurs at the beginning or end of a word. "Hillary Clin'un took a selfie while holding a ki'un at an animal shel'er."

That's a valid form of pronunciation when an N follows a T in a word. It's called a "Held T".

Quote

With -tain, -tten and some TN combinations, the T is held. The "held T" is, strictly speaking, not really a T at all. Remember, [t] and [n] are very close in the mouth. If you have [n] immediately after [t], you don't pop the [t]—the tongue is in the [t] position, but your release the air for the [n] not the [t]. Make sure you don't put a schwa before the [n]. An important point to remember is that you need a sharp upward sliding intonation up to the "held T," then a quick drop for the N.

Written, certain, forgotten, sentence
He's forgotten the carton of satin mittens.
She's certain that he has written it.
Martin has gotten a kitten.

My last name has a held T.

[legaleagle53]

On 3/16/2017 at 6:54 PM, Sandman87 said:

Tonight the local news reported that students in a cooking class are making colonary masterpieces. "Let me taste it...oh my god...this isn't fudge!"

I'm getting mighty sick of a trend in news programs, both national and local, where reporters tell us that they "reached out" to a person or organization when all they did was try to contact them for information. Stop it! You didn't "reach out." Stop trying to spin it as if you were doing them a big favor.

I'd like to give a special English language middle finger to one of the local reporters who is absolutely incapable of pronouncing the letter "t" unless it occurs at the beginning or end of a word. "Hillary Clin'un took a selfie while holding a ki'un at an animal shel'er."

You never heard of the glottal stop?  It's a common feature of the Germanic languages, of which English is one.

[ari333]

I read the comments that Sandman87 made differently. I understand the points made above, but I think SM87 meant something else - or that's how I read it. I mean for example, how some people say, "Oh , no you deh-ent." I know it's a "D" sound missing there instead of a "T", but that's the only example I could think of.

Edited March 18, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

I have a neighbor who says, "truss" for "trust."

May I assume that pronunciation humor is ok here in this thread? (It's not really grammar, is it?)

Fwiw, every teacher I ever heard say the word, they pronounced it, "misCHEEvious." That's the only way I ever heard it.

We have another neighbor who says, "no wha ah sane?" several times in a conversation. (Know what I'm saying?) It makes my bf crazy.

Edited March 18, 2017 by ari333

[rur]

A friend sent me this article about the lack of an Oxford Comma in a contract. I figured this is the group that would appreciate it.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/us/oxford-comma-lawsuit.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

[3pwood]

23 minutes ago, rur said:

A friend sent me this article about the lack of an Oxford Comma in a contract. I figured this is the group that would appreciate it.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/us/oxford-comma-lawsuit.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

Thank you, rur & 1st Circuit Court of Appeals!  Yes, indeed!  

[Qoass]

I always laughed at the way Barbara Walters would pronounce 20/20 (twenty-twenty) emphasizing the Ts for all they were worth.  I guess she figured if she did that, nobody would notice her problem with Rs.

[BoogieBurns]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:00 PM, mojito said:

Question for anyone who really keeps up on what's acceptable English these days (any editors out there?). Every time I ask my old editor questions like this, she suggests re-writing the sentence. But I wanna know if anyone has passed legislation on this usage!

"Ask the customer their name." 

"The caller said that they didn't receive the last bill."

It's so widespread in manuals and instructions, I'm wondering if it has become acceptable. 

Not sure how new it is, but their is now recognized as singular when needed.

His/her/their or s/he/they can be used interchangeably. It was big news in the trans and intersex community last week as they have been pushing for terminology that allows them to be on a gender spectrum without requiring specifics or explanations. All of this I learned from twitter.  

[legaleagle53]

18 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Not sure how new it is, but their is now recognized as singular when needed.

His/her/their or s/he/they can be used interchangeably. It was big news in the trans and intersex community last week as they have been pushing for terminology that allows them to be on a gender spectrum without requiring specifics or explanations. All of this I learned from twitter.  

It's not new at all.  It's actually been around since the 14th Century.  It's just getting a lot of press these days because of a few grammarians who still insist on applying Latin rules of grammar to a Germanic language.

[Qoass]

I saw a promo for Scandal last night that put the words, "Oh Abby what have you done?" onscreen.

Commas, ABC, commas!

[Shannon L.]

Making a case for a singular ‘they’

"During a panel at the American Copy Editors Society national conference in St. Petersburg, Florida, on Friday, it was announced that the 2017 AP Stylebook will include guidance on the limited use of “they” as a singular pronoun."

[BoogieBurns]

55 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

Making a case for a singular ‘they’

"During a panel at the American Copy Editors Society national conference in St. Petersburg, Florida, on Friday, it was announced that the 2017 AP Stylebook will include guidance on the limited use of “they” as a singular pronoun."

That's why there was news, AP style is allowing "they." Thank you. 

[rur]

And in the "Spelling Matters" department: 

From an article about April the endlessly pregnant giraffe, who kicked at the vet the other day during an examination: "Some (live cam viewers) complained that it must point to a deep seated hatred of humans or a frustration at being denied access to the planes of Africa."

How much legroom do the African airlines provide for their passengers? 

[meep.meep]

Maybe she just really really wanted to get out of Dodge.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I couldn't believe it when I read it: Larry Wilmore committed one of the most egregious grammar mistakes!!! In an article about the Kendall Jenner Pepsi commercial in the Huffington Post, he was quoted as saying "I could care less" when it was clear he meant "I couldn't care less," because the former implies he cares a little, when it's clear he didn't give a shit. Hell, even Gus and Shawn on Psych corrected the Chief when she said it, as well as when she split an infinitive!!!?

I'm sooo disappointed in Larry.

[Haleth]

That one always annoys me too.

[CoderLady]

Me, three. All you have to do is just listen to the words coming out of your mouth to realize that "could care" makes no fucking sense. Grrr.

[ari333]

" I feel badly."

[MrSmith]

On 2/21/2017 at 4:10 PM, topanga said:

According to online dictionaries, "amongst" is an acceptable word. But it keeps getting underlined by spell check--even now, I'm staring at a big, ugly red line on my post. And I hear it often on TV, especially on the news. So why do MS Word, PreviouslyTV, and Facebook keep telling me I'm spelling "among" wrong?

I make the red line go away by right-clicking the word, and then clicking "Add to dictionary". Might not be available in all cases, but it will fix most.

[shapeshifter]

This morning I heard an otherwise articulate, intelligent, educated NPR reporter say, "between he and his mistress."

I scolded the radio soundly.

[Archery]

22 hours ago, ari333 said:

" I feel badly."

It bothered Kirk Douglas too, way back in the day.

[ari333]

34 minutes ago, Archery said:

It bothered Kirk Douglas too, way back in the day.

My device won't open the link. What did he say?

An old friend who has a masters in English used to become crazy when someone said, "I feel badly."

[Archery]

It's a short clip from "Letter to Three Wives."  One character says, "Don't you feel badly, dear," and Douglas' character yells, "Bad! Not badly! You feel badly this way [and does this crab-snappy hand motion with both hands]!"  Then another character says, "I got my coat on and I catch cold easy."  And his wife/girlfriend says, "Easily." 

[ari333]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:18 AM, Archery said:

It's a short clip from "Letter to Three Wives."  One character says, "Don't you feel badly, dear," and Douglas' character yells, "Bad! Not badly! You feel badly this way [and does this crab-snappy hand motion with both hands]!"  Then another character says, "I got my coat on and I catch cold easy."  And his wife/girlfriend says, "Easily." 

Hee. This speaks volumes. :-)