All Episodes Discussion

[LEILANI2]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:07 AM, TVbitch said:

Andrea Canning: Your heart must have ached for your nephews ..losing their mom ..in that way ..at that age ..when they need her the most ..with all those things she won't be there for ..when it will pretty much totally destroy their lives. On the bright side, my legs look amazing in this flouncy sheer mini, right?

Okay before you admonish me for picking on Andrea again, keep in mind I did not say one single thing about the shiny gold number with the sky high slit she wore to interview the homicide investigators! 

I am not a prude, I want to like Andrea but her clothing choices are nuts.  I was too busy to get online a few months back to comment here  but there was an episode where she's on the tarmac interviewing some guy and she's wearing a flouncy dress that's so short it lands just one centimeter below her crotch and it was windy that day.  Like how was there not a wardrobe malfunction.

This latest episode and the questions or rather statements she made while 'interviewing' the detective were so lame I don't get how she not is still on the show but covers more episodes then Keith.

Edited January 29, 2023 by LEILANI2

[LEILANI2]

https://thecinemaholic.com/sara-krauseneck-now/

Sara’s statements were then obviously noted down by authorities, and it sadly came to light that she was well aware of the fact something terrible had happened to her loving, devoted mother. The toddler had apparently told her father, “I couldn’t find you. I didn’t know how to call you; I didn’t know what street to ride my bike on” before claiming she’d seen a “bad man” in their bedroom. However, James refused any further direct questioning of either himself or his child, after which he swiftly packed their bags and moved back to Michigan the next day to be near family.

.......................

packing up and moving the very next day is definitely suspicious.

[mythoughtis]

Sara was 3 when this happened.  Yet she supposedly still remembers a lot of the day in detail.   I find that unbelievable. I only have flashes ( as in seconds) of memories from my young childhood - and I’m referring to up to age 8-9.    
 

Her father never once called about the investigation - nor did she.  Her father deliberately kept her away from her mom’s side of the family - the people who could tell her stories and medical history from her mom’s side of the family.   
The PHD issue is bigger than some think.  Kodak would have soon fired him.  Back then companies  didn’t blink about telling prospective employers why they fired someone or about employment issues in general,  That's why he never worked in economics again.  His wife had found out about the lie, they were having severe credit issues.  Why was that since he had probably been hired at a decent salary due to that supposed PHD? 

I find the fact that there was no other DNA and that the axe came from their house incriminating.  I doubt an outsider would have hunted in the garage for a weapon when there are butcher knives in the kitchen. 
 

 

[iMonrey]

"On A Dark, Deserted Highway." I don't know what to take away from this episode. I don't know how Lloyd Barrus managed to get all those women to marry him or be his girlfriend. I guess it speaks to the desperation of loneliness, or the fear of being alone, if those can be considered two different things. He is clearly mentally ill and I can't believe he was ever "charming" enough to win someone over. 

I guess it doesn't help if women in the LDS community are taught to submit to their husbands to the extent that abuse is allowed. Although I don't know that all of his wives/girlfriends were adherents of that faith beyond the first two. 

I think they said he had 10 children all together? Good grief. 

It didn't surprise me that he identified as an Oath Keeper either. That sounds about right.

[TVbitch]

Yeah, what can be said. We have a very long way to go before women on the whole understand that (in this country anyway) they don't need to put up with abuse, and that being alone is a perfectly fine alternative to being with some violent and/or crazy asshole.  

[Annber03]

This episode pissed me the hell off on SO many levels.

Why. The. FUCK. Was. This. Creep. Ever. Allowed. To. Be. Out? Why and how was he ever allowed to have any access to guns of any sort, especially after all of his criminal activities and time in prison? I could rant SO much more about that aspect of things, but that would get us into the political realm. Just suffice to say it's absolutely insane that he could gather that much weaponry and ammunition at all. As sad as it was that Mr. Mason died as he did, at least he had the fact he was a cop to explain the danger he'd found himself in. He was in a job that was automatically going to put his life at potential risk.

But what if Lloyd and his son had shot some random innocent person on the road that night in Montana? What if they'd crashed into some random innocent person driving home while they were speeding down the highway? What if Lloyd had gone after one of his wives and kids and took them out in some kind of mass murder? They'd already put some innocent people's lives in danger when they shot down that helicopter while in the desert. He should've spent the rest of his life in jail for that reason alone - maybe if he had, Officer Mason would still be alive today. I wish the trial had allowed the evidence of Lloyd and his sons' past crimes, to see just how incredibly violent and dangerous they really were, but that video of them coming back to kill Officer Mason was pretty damning in and of itself, and proof they knew exactly what they were doing. I agree that there's some sort of mental illness lurking here, for sure, but it's also clear that these guys are just super creepy scumbags who deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their lives. 

Love, too, how Mr. "Look at how badass I think I am" Lloyd, who was more than happy to write these manifestos and go off about his warped views and plot to try and take out any law enforcement or other government authorities that he perceived as a "threat" absolutely refused to take any responsibility for anything he did, and was more than happy to throw his sons under the bus and make them take the fall for his actions. They weren't innocent, either, of course, but yeah, way to live up to your supposed "tough fighter" attitude there, you asshole. 

I did laugh, however, at how Mr. Survivalist apparently didn't think to bring any water when he and his family hid out in that bunker in freaking Death Valley. They had all the guns in the world, but thinking to bring water to the desert? Apparently that's a little too beyond their thinking. And I liked the point being made that it was ironic that Lloyd had such deeply anti-government views, considering it was that very government that gave him and his sons WAY more chances than they truly deserved. 

I agree with those of you here regarding his wives. Way too many women out there who feel they have to be with someone, or need to be with someone, and that leads them to take just any guy who comes along, whether he's worthy of it or not. Women need to know that it's okay to have standards, and it's okay to also just, y'know, be single, too. 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I guess it doesn't help if women in the LDS community are taught to submit to their husbands to the extent that abuse is allowed. Although I don't know that all of his wives/girlfriends were adherents of that faith beyond the first two. 

The moment they started in on how super religious Lloyd was, and the specific religious group he got involved with, I was like, "...heeeeeeere we go." I've just seen way too many of these kinds of shows to know where the story will go from there. At least there was that one LDS member who did help the one wife and her kids escape, even going so far as to disguise themselves to do so. 

Quote

It didn't surprise me that he identified as an Oath Keeper either. That sounds about right.

Yeah, that tracked for me, too. Wonder how the "support cops at all costs" crowd would take to him shooting a cop. 

I love that Alma went the complete opposite route and went to work for the federal government. I liked him. He's absolutely right that people like Lloyd don't have the first clue what it actually means to call themselves patriots. 

[mythoughtis]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

"On A Dark, Deserted Highway." I don't know what to take away from this episode. I don't know how Lloyd Barrus managed to get all those women to marry him or be his girlfriend. I guess it speaks to the desperation of loneliness, or the fear of being alone, if those can be considered two different things. He is clearly mentally ill and I can't believe he was ever "charming" enough to win someone over. 

 

This was one of my thoughts too.     The wives all stayed long enough to have multiple children ( the last one had five with him).  I just don’t get it. 

I’m thankful that the legal system has moved towards serious handling of custodial interference and kidnapping of children since the days when he took his two children.  This shows what happens when you don’t seriously prosecute it.  I wonder how many of his other children were emotionally damaged by his presence.  Although he went to prison when the youngest group was small and the middle group were  with their mom.  So at least they weren’t exposed to him for as long as they could have been 

Edited February 4, 2023 by mythoughtis

[Guest]

Since we’re all spilling our guts let me say this…I wonder how things might have played out if Marshall and Jeffrey’s mom said “the hell with it, I’m not allowing that monster to have any contact with my children.  We’re getting as far away from here as possible, change our identities and craft a new life.  I’ll worry about the consequences awaiting me if caught, but right now the sanity and moral upbringing of my sons are much more important.”

Not saying that deluded SOB still wouldn’t have killed anyone but it would not be her one son blowing away police officers while the other was sitting in prison. 

And I’m sure Officer Masons widow and children have played out that scenario many times. 

Ten kids. A regular Johnny Appleseed he was. 

[DonnaMae]

20 hours ago, Annber03 said:

The moment they started in on how super religious Lloyd was, and the specific religious group he got involved with, I was like, "...heeeeeeere we go." I've just seen way too many of these kinds of shows to know where the story will go from there.

Reminded me of that mini-series "Under the Banner of Heaven". It was shocking the way the wives were treated.

[pdlinda]

2 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

I wonder how things might have played out if Marshall and Jeffrey’s mom said “the hell with it, I’m not allowing that monster to have any contact with my children.  We’re getting as far away from here as possible, change our identities and craft a new life.  I’ll worry about the consequences awaiting me if caught, but right now the sanity and moral upbringing of my sons are much more important.”

I know of a similar situation (less menacing but still concerning) and the bottom line is that EVERYTHING you're suggesting costs $$$$....moving and "changing identities"...especially when children are concerned) costs a LOT of $$$$.  Lawyers are going to have to become involved.

Of course, this was years ago so prices are less; HOWEVER, if $$$ is tight (and I believe it was with her) it still might have been financially impossible for her to do what you describe (even though I bet she would have LIKED TO DO exactly what you suggest).

Edited February 5, 2023 by pdlinda

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pdlinda said:

I know of a similar situation (less menacing but still concerning) and the bottom line is that EVERYTHING you're suggesting costs $$$$....moving and "changing identities"...especially when children are concerned) costs a LOT of $$$$.  Lawyers are going to have to become involved.

Of course, this was years ago so prices are less; HOWEVER, if $$$ is tight (and I believe it was with her) it still might have been financially impossible for her to do what you describe (even though I bet she would have LIKED TO DO exactly what you suggest).

Excellent point.  But there are more than several organizations willing and able to help out people in this situation that are established and were available at that time  

And frankly I’d live in a battered old cardboard box under a bridge if it meant that I kept my children from that murdering, manipulative monster. 

But that’s just me and I realize not everyone would agree.  But that’s okay too. 

[Tdoc72]

I personally won’t be surprised if we hear Jeffrey does something else whenever he gets out. I can’t seem to find a release date or how long he was supposed to be in prison but he was denied parole in Jan 2022.  
 

[Court]

I left an abusive marriage and it was extremely difficult. You're terrified and the abuser has your mind so warped that it's difficult to leave. If it hadn't been for my parents financially supporting me, I could not have left.  I had stayed at home for 10 years and didn't finish college. NO one would hire me because lack of experience then. I had 3 kids and one wasn't even school age. I finally got a job as a cafeteria monitor. It was 12 hours a week and paid 14 bucks an hour. My parents are literally the only reason I was able to leave and not be one of the statistics that return. 

Legal aid and the other organizations wouldn't help me because I wasn't in immediate danger as far as they were concerned. The physical abuse wasn't frequent enough for them to help me. Also, those organizations often do not have beds available asap. If you're living in a car or the street, DFCS will put your kids in foster care. It's so easy to say how you would leave until you find yourself in it. 

[The Closer]

The women they interviewed that had married Lloyd seemed like decent people who actually did leave him, one at the expense of losing her sons in the process, so I'm not sure why we need to go on about the problem being the women getting involved with Lloyd or acting like it's so simple to just leave an abusive situation involving children. 

I thought it was a well told story and was one that fully used the 2 hours to tell. It was heartbreaking to see that Lloyd and Marshall returned to Moore's vehicle and fired more rounds. I love that Moore's wife opened up Book Therapy. Hope she can find the peace and love she deserves.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm not sure why we need to go on about the problem being the women getting involved with Lloyd or acting like it's so simple to just leave an abusive situation involving children. 

I realize it's a delicate topic but my original point was that I cannot understand how this raging psycho got so many women to marry him or be his girlfriend in the first place. It's not like he was some dashing charmer who swept women off their feet or even had a stable job history. I think people in general just put blinders on because they don't want to be alone, and I think that's sad.

[12catcrazy]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I realize it's a delicate topic but my original point was that I cannot understand how this raging psycho got so many women to marry him or be his girlfriend in the first place. It's not like he was some dashing charmer who swept women off their feet or even had a stable job history. I think people in general just put blinders on because they don't want to be alone, and I think that's sad.

Unfortunately, many abusers are good manipulators who are able to be charming and kind when it suits them.  Also, the early abuse starts out in very subtle ways in almost a test of whether or not the woman will stay or dump him.  Very few abusers are going to hit a woman across the face on the second date.    Most of these guys seem to have an inner radar on who is going to put up with it.    And it's also well known that a woman's life is in the most danger from an abuser when she decides to leave him.  

[amarante]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I realize it's a delicate topic but my original point was that I cannot understand how this raging psycho got so many women to marry him or be his girlfriend in the first place. It's not like he was some dashing charmer who swept women off their feet or even had a stable job history. I think people in general just put blinders on because they don't want to be alone, and I think that's sad.

I think one can differentiate between the two wives who were interviewed and whatever girlfriends or others who came into his life later.

First wife who lost her sons - he was a charming guy who had returned from a Missionary stint with the LDS. Her sons were pretty young when she escaped from him and then he kidnapped the children. She evidently hired lawyers who told her that based on the facts she was pretty powerless to do anything. I think she said that she had no money working as a waitress. 

Second wife also married what seemed to be a normal guy - and then had difficulty leaving. At one time it domestic abuse wasn't treated at all seriously by law enforcement - and I suspect it was even worse in the kind of "religious" small towns they lived in where the "patriarch" of the family was accorded wide discretion in terms of discipline.

Her account of what she had to do to make her escape - with the aid of some kind of organization that specifically helped abused women flee was terrifying. The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when they attempt to leave.

Pregnancy is another high risk - especially for women who aren't married to the father of the child.

What I have more difficulty understanding is how women allow themselves to be abused by boyfriends when there isn't the same kind of financial pressure there is when there are children involved or when there is marriage and so there are often financial implications that have to be dealt with. The first time any man ever hit me; attempted to control me or otherwise act in a suspicious manner I would be gone - and hopefully before he had invested enough emotional energy in the relationship to hunt me down and punish  me for leaving. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Unfortunately, many abusers are good manipulators who are able to be charming and kind when it suits them. 

Not one person described Lloyd Barrus as charming. Not one. As far as I could tell, this was someone who would have had a hard time keeping his crazy hidden. And yet . . . women hooked up with him. I know this sounds a lot like victim blaming and it's triggering, but as I originally stated I think it speaks to the fear people have - men and women both - of being alone. Or in the case of the first two wives the "duty" they felt to marry regardless of any other consideration. The fact that people feel - by default - that they must be with someone.

[LuvMyShows]

On 2/5/2023 at 11:23 AM, PsychoKlown said:

Since we’re all spilling our guts let me say this…I wonder how things might have played out if Marshall and Jeffrey’s mom said “the hell with it, I’m not allowing that monster to have any contact with my children.  We’re getting as far away from here as possible, change our identities and craft a new life.  I’ll worry about the consequences awaiting me if caught, but right now the sanity and moral upbringing of my sons are much more important.”

I wondered specifically about the visit back to her years after he had already unlawfully taken them to Alaska.  Her lawyer seemed to say that she shouldn't just match his unlawfulness by keeping them, but then why not go to the police and explain the situation that they had been unlawfully taken years ago and get the law on her side in terms of not just sending them back?

[amarante]

14 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I wondered specifically about the visit back to her years after he had already unlawfully taken them to Alaska.  Her lawyer seemed to say that she shouldn't just match his unlawfulness by keeping them, but then why not go to the police and explain the situation that they had been unlawfully taken years ago and get the law on her side in terms of not just sending them back?

Because the police back then didn't get involved with custodial interference cases just as they also didn't treat domestic violence seriously.

Also she didn't have the financial resources to hire an attorney even on a limited basis. 

And as I recall she also said that she was afraid she would be killed if she actually went to Alaska and attempted to get them back.

 

[iMonrey]

"Who Killed Mindy Morgenstern" - I knew it was the neighbor cop as soon as they showed the wife being interviewed, because I thought "Why is it just the wife?" Dateline Rule #1: whoever they aren't showing is the killer. Strange that he confessed to all the rapes afterwards if he intends to appeal the murder conviction. 

[Mondrianyone]

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I knew it was the neighbor cop as soon as they showed the wife being interviewed

It was so painfully obvious. I wondered why they didn't try to obfuscate it a little bit by interviewing some other tenants in her building to get their reactions, but I guess that would've taken some actual effort.

[Morrigan2575]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

"Who Killed Mindy Morgenstern" - I knew it was the neighbor cop as soon as they showed the wife being interviewed, because I thought "Why is it just the wife?" Dateline Rule #1: whoever they aren't showing is the killer. Strange that he confessed to all the rapes afterwards if he intends to appeal the murder conviction. 

Sort of the same. It was the second time she popped up that I realized it had to be her husband.

I'm left wondering at the chain of events? Like I assume he was telling the truth about seeing her with the laundry Basket helping her bring it back to her apartment but, how it went from that to her dead escapes me. Was it really an angry outburst or realization? I mean he had to know there was no way to leave her alive that close to home?

[Blissfool]

26 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

It was so painfully obvious. I wondered why they didn't try to obfuscate it a little bit by interviewing some other tenants in her building to get their reactions, but I guess that would've taken some actual effort.

This happened 16 years ago. The tenants are long gone. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing landlord (if still the same person) cannot give out forwarding addresses to a guy with a camera and a microphone. 😆

[rlc]

I know I could say the same thing every week, but I hate how they spend so much time on people who are innocent. This wee the exes dad while clearly pretty creep was definitely innocent. Why make his kids/grandkids/wife/neighbors/coworkers watch this a deal with the innuendo and embarrassment? 

[TVbitch]

Yeah, if they wanted this one to be a "mystery," they should not have included the perp's fiance until the latter part of the episode. At least she did not stand by her man and became properly terrified of the guy when this came out. 

[Mondrianyone]

2 hours ago, Blissfool said:

This happened 16 years ago. The tenants are long gone. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing landlord (if still the same person) cannot give out forwarding addresses to a guy with a camera and a microphone.

Some tenants are long-term. And if the family knows of other people who lived in the building back then, I'm guessing the NBC research team wouldn't have that hard a time in finding a few.   😁

Edited February 12, 2023 by Mondrianyone

[TVbitch]

It feels weird to say this since it involves an innocent kid's murder ...but that was pretty boring. I think I've seen it before, too.

Seems like that police department's big crime solving strategy was to just tell every person of interest you KNOW they did it and try to goad them into confessing.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

It feels weird to say this since it involves an innocent kid's murder ...but that was pretty boring. I think I've seen it before, too.

Seems like that police department's big crime solving strategy was to just tell every person of interest you KNOW they did it and try to goad them into confessing.

You probably have seen it before.  I'm not that much older than Jonelle, and this received national coverage when it happened.  Plus, I remember several shows through the years as she was missing (well before Steve Pankey). Probably 4-5 if we're counting both Dateline and 48 Hours.

Go, Mrs. Matthews!  If you don't want to forgive Steve Pankey, that's your right to feel and not do whatever you want!  If people want to forgive, then fine, that's their thing, but I love it when people actually say "I don't."  If they don't want to, that should be just as fine as those that want to forgive.

[patty1h]

The episode about Jonelle Matthews has definitely been done before.   As soon as they described her coming into the house from school, etc. I knew it was covered on another show.  I bailed after about 10 minutes because I remembered how I got so furious at that creep Steve Pankey, I didn't want to get my blood pressure shooting up again.

[Annber03]

I didn't realize this was the case involving Steve Pankey until his name came up - once his name was mentioned, I did remember hearing the story elsewhere, but this isn't a case I'm super familiar with, so it didn't ping for me at first. 

But man, what a weird, weird guy he is. Being his defense attorney must be quite the job, I'm sure... 

4 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Seems like that police department's big crime solving strategy was to just tell every person of interest you KNOW they did it and try to goad them into confessing.

Right? I was also struck by the one officer talking about how Jonelle's dad's demeanor had them suspicious, with how stoic and unemotional he seemed - "If that were my kid, I'd be pounding the table and demanding answers!" 

Which, sure, yeah, that would absolutely be an understandable and expected reaction for a parent to have in that situation...but this guy had a wife and another daughter to think about, too. Perhaps he was thinking something along the lines of, "I need to be strong for them. I can't panic, I don't want to upset them further." That would make total sense to me, and would be a logical explanation for his demeanor. 

It just seems like some people can't win with the police. If they don't cooperate, they're a suspect. If they do cooperate, they're still a suspect. And seriously, we need to stop relying so much on polygraph results -  I liked that Murphy pointed out the flaws and issues that came with polygraph tests when he was interviewing one of the investigators. 

The bit about them finding pieces of the clothing Jonelle wore the night she disappeared, as well as her braces...that was wild. How incredibly sad. That it took 35 years before they found her, that her parents didn't know what became of her for all that time...my god, I can't begin to imagine. Her poor family. 

[iMonrey]

"Footprints in the snow." This was a weird one. No doubt whatsoever, Steve Pankey was one weird, messed up dude. But I can't help wondering if he was just someone who was mentally ill and craving attention because Norris Drake really matched the profile of the killer. Right across the street, obsessed with young girls, lied about where he was the night she disappeared, and knew about the rake which nobody knew but the police. Both had sketchy backgrounds and a history of abuse. And there was never any clear motive for Pankey.

What really burned me was when they called Pankey's ex-wife and she said "I've been waiting for you to call." Uh, what? Why the hell didn't she call them if she suspected her husband did it?

Quote

Seems like that police department's big crime solving strategy was to just tell every person of interest you KNOW they did it and try to goad them into confessing.

Agreed.  I can't help wonder if Norris Drake hadn't killed himself if she wouldn't have been the one on trial with witnesses coming forward to condemn him. 

[eel21788]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

"Footprints in the snow."  

My take away from seeing all those pictures of what footprints in the snow look like when the perpetrator circles the house looking to gain access through a basement window confirmed what I already knew: there is no way in hell that JonBenet Ramsey was killed by a random intruder who happened upon one attainable window without disturbing any of the snow anywhere surrounding the house.

[MsJamieDornan]

15 hours ago, TVbitch said:

It feels weird to say this since it involves an innocent kid's murder ...but that was pretty boring. I think I've seen it before, too.

Very boring.

[CrazyInAlabama]

9 hours ago, eel21788 said:

My take away from seeing all those pictures of what footprints in the snow look like when the perpetrator circles the house looking to gain access through a basement window confirmed what I already knew: there is no way in hell that JonBenet Ramsey was killed by a random intruder who happened upon one attainable window without disturbing any of the snow anywhere surrounding the house.

(I moved to Colorado a couple of weeks after this happened, so heard a lot then)

The house had a security system, but I don't think it was ever turned on.    That wasn't a new house, and had entire sections, like the basement, that were rarely used by the family, or the housekeeper.     I've always wondered if the housekeeper or someone who was going to be around while the Ramsays were out of town had friends over a lot, and didn't tell anyone about it.  It wouldn't be the first time I've heard of people covering up for their friends or relatives. 

My suspicion is that someone could have stayed behind after the open house the Ramseys had, and everyone knew they were leaving town for vacation, so anyone could have simply walked into the house during the party, or after when the family was out.   The Christmas season open house at Ramsey's home was huge, with a lot of people wandering around,  and apparently this was typical of their parties.   Combine that with the kid's friends, neighbors, and the other who had free access to the house, and the list of possible suspects is in the hundreds.    

So many people worked or visited the house, that tons of people knew the layout, and could have stayed in the house for days without being found.   No one needed to break a window to get in, the house had less security than my house does, because they never used the security system.   

Edited February 19, 2023 by CrazyInAlabama

[Vivigirl10]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:02 PM, iMonrey said:

No doubt whatsoever, Steve Pankey was one weird, messed up dude. But I can't help wondering if he was just someone who was mentally ill and craving attention

Was anyone fully comfortable and confident that Steve was the killer?  I wasn't.  How many weirdos have we seen on Dateline who needlessly interject themselves into a crime that they have nothing to do with?  This guy was a combination of mentally ill and an attention whore (as stated above).  But I didn't see them really present one shred of evidence that he was the murderer. 

People just have different demeanors.  The Dad seemed like a soft spoken, kind, mild mannered man.  And I kind of loved it when he DID have enough at the police station and he raised his voice. 

I was surprised when they said that Jonelle was adopted.  I thought she looked so much like her Mom.   

[iMonrey]

Quote

Was anyone fully comfortable and confident that Steve was the killer?  I wasn't.  How many weirdos have we seen on Dateline who needlessly interject themselves into a crime that they have nothing to do with?  This guy was a combination of mentally ill and an attention whore (as stated above).  But I didn't see them really present one shred of evidence that he was the murderer. 

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to buy that Pankey was the killer, but Norris Drake really seemed like the more likely candidate.

[JudyObscure]

Yes,  I don't mind Hanky Panky being locked up, he's definitely a danger to society, but if I had to choose between him and Norris I would pick Norris.

A couple of things struck me about this crime. 

One, is how very many sex crazed weirdos are out there.

Two, is just how lazy a police force can be.  People were dropping clues in their lap and they just brushed them off like so many donut crumbs. 

Person after person said Pankey had been talking about the crime too much and they didn't even talk to him for ages.

  Norris's mother said, on the very first morning, "My son sat in the driveway and stared across at Jonelle's house for some time last night, right about the time of the murder."  No follow-up there. 

There were letters painstakingly written and then ignored.

Instead they go after the mild-mannered, shell-shocked father.  Blaming him for not acting like the jerks we've all seen on crime shows, both fiction and non-fiction, who rail at the police for not doing their jobs fast enough.

I thought it was sadly ironic that the cute story about Jonelle taking an out of context line from the Bible to try and get her way with her mom, was mirrored by Pankey when he would twist and misunderstand lines from the Bible to suit himself.

Which creep was it who told his wife that having sex with her would be an act of mercy not of love?  That's good for ten years behind bars in my book.

[Guest]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:34 PM, JudyObscure said:

Two, is just how lazy a police force can be.  People were dropping clues in their lap and they just brushed them off like so many donut crumbs. 

I have a question I hope someone can answer.   What is the criteria for detective work evaluation?

We've watched so many Datelines, 20/20's, 48 Hours and the list goes on.  Frequently we'll hear of a detective who pores over years and years of files on a particular murder to look at the case with a "fresh pair of eyes".

Okay, so how long does the detective get to pore over the files?  Months?  Okay, but then they're not doing anything else but reading files at their desk.  What about other cases?  It sounds like a vicious cycle that never ends.

I truly am someone who supports (most) police and this question isn't posed to those patrolling the streets.  I guess I am asking if a detective is always poring over files, how can any of these cases get solved unless there's a wayward tip or a blatant omission in the file.

There was a case on Dateline where the wife, son and friend-of-son killed the wife's husband while he was in his bar.  His daughters from a previous marriage were heartbroken that this case was going nowhere.

There was a detective who by his own omission told the daughters "I'm not going anywhere until I solve your dads murderer.  No one in the department is going to promote me because no one like me".  He actually did solve the murder but ever since that episode I aways wondered if there was a set time for poring over files.

Stupid question, I know but if you think about it - I'm not sure there's a solid answer.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

I aways wondered if there was a set time for poring over files.

Probably.  You wouldn't know it from TV shows  that focus on one case, but detectives often have more than one case running at a time. And those cases are unlikely to keep a detective active all hours of their shift.  They might be waiting for a decision by a prosecutor.  Or they're waiting on lab tests or a witness to call back.

Like any job, there's probably time where they're waiting and have time to look at old cases hoping to see  a connection missed, a lead not followed up on or some new DNA test that could be run.

And then a station might make it an initiative to try and clear some old cases that have been stagnant for a while and real effort is put in to make time for it.

[Irlandesa]

Friday's episode was a repeat, but I watched again anyway because I thought it was an interesting case. 

I laughed at the crime novelist who interviewed Rios and believed he couldn't have been convicted.  There have been cases with less evidence presented on this show that got convictions.  This isn't one of them where I thought it was unreasonable not to have reasonable doubt.

And I'm not sure if it's right, but wikipedia has a little writeup on this case, and they made the secret relationship a bit uglier than it was portrayed here.  The motive wasn't just that Valencia would expose the gay love affair to Rios' boss;  rather, Valencia felt pressured to have sex with Rios because he promised he'd get the charges against Valencia dropped.  As time went by, the pending charges remained, and Rios kept coming by. Valencia was getting tired of it.  After Rios was arrested, other women came forward and said they too had been pressured for sex by Rios after he arrested them.

And I can't believe he thought we'd believe he went over to Valencia's house, a person he arrested, to check on him with no plans for a sexual encounter. 

I'm sure he does that to everyone he arrests.
 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Irlandesa

[Ohmo]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:21 AM, Kiki620 said:

Was anyone fully comfortable and confident that Steve was the killer?

I'll say this: Steve  Pankey definitely lives with mental illness.  I have experience with people who have mental illness in my family.  They do attention seek.  They also talk about memories over and over and over again.  Those memories typically involve them in some way.  Steve didn't keep talking about the fact that he was slighted by those at church.  He kept taking about Jonelle Matthews's death.  Not once, not twice, but over and over again for years.

I think he kept doing that because he was there, and he did it.  That much volume of repetition means something, in my opinion.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:34 PM, JudyObscure said:

Yes,  I don't mind Hanky Panky being locked up, he's definitely a danger to society, but if I had to choose between him and Norris I would pick Norris.

A couple of things struck me about this crime. 

One, is how very many sex crazed weirdos are out there.

Two, is just how lazy a police force can be.  People were dropping clues in their lap and they just brushed them off like so many donut crumbs. 

Person after person said Pankey had been talking about the crime too much and they didn't even talk to him for ages.

  Norris's mother said, on the very first morning, "My son sat in the driveway and stared across at Jonelle's house for some time last night, right about the time of the murder."  No follow-up there. 

There were letters painstakingly written and then ignored.

Instead they go after the mild-mannered, shell-shocked father.  Blaming him for not acting like the jerks we've all seen on crime shows, both fiction and non-fiction, who rail at the police for not doing their jobs fast enough.

I thought it was sadly ironic that the cute story about Jonelle taking an out of context line from the Bible to try and get her way with her mom, was mirrored by Pankey when he would twist and misunderstand lines from the Bible to suit himself.

Which creep was it who told his wife that having sex with her would be an act of mercy not of love?  That's good for ten years behind bars in my book.

I think the police looking at Jonelle's dad is a case of recency bias.  It was 1984.  I grew up in the 1980s.  Abducted children were in the news a lot then.  Adam Walsh, etc.  Plus, we here in this forum watch a ton of Dateline.  Policing has somewhat evolved over time, but back then, demeanor was looked at differently than it is now.  It doesn't surprise me that they went after Jonelle's dad hard.

About Norris, I have an overall issue with the idea of accusing someone who's dead because that person cannot offer any sort of defense.  I feel if defense attorneys go that route, they should be made to prove that the person who's dead actually did it.  Saying that Norris stared at Jonelle's house is like saying that Pankey has mental illness.  Neither proves anything.

I still go back to the fact that a 75 page timeline could be made of everything that Steve said.

[iMonrey]

Anyone else watch "The Window" Sunday night? 

Nobody seemed to consider the possibility that it was just an accident. Like it had to be either murder or suicide. But the way that weird window swung outward made me think it was entirely possible that Hannah just accidentally toppled out while trying to either open or close it. Especially since it looked like she would have had to stand up on the bed to reach it, and lean out the window to fully open it or to reach it to close. She was found wearing only a t-shirt and underwear so it must have been pretty warm. Also, the neighbor across the street saw her hanging from the window sill but didn't see anyone pushing her out.

On the other hand, her husband did seem like a big creep, and by the end I thought the prosecution laid out a pretty strong case against him. Especially when it turned out he had lied about how much she'd been drinking, and the ambien in her system was suspicious. Plus the text messages when her phone was downstairs.

Craig's best buddy and his sister are obviously bias. Everyone else thought he was a controlling jerk.

[sempervivum]

Re. The Window: I wish we had seen more of the apartment. From what they showed of the outside, it looked like there were recessed balconies on the upper floors. Even if Hanna had wanted to suicide, that bedroom window was really high off the floor, and not even very wide; if there were a balcony, that would seem easier, no?

I'd think it unlikely she'd be willing to leave her child behind to be raised by someone who was emotionally abusive. But then, I never understand women who have affairs instead of just going to a divorce lawyer. She had plenty of time while he was out of the country on assignment.

[TVbitch]

I missed the window one, cuz I didn't realize it was going to be airing. Is it worth catching online and enduring the excruciating commercials? 

[JudyObscure]

59 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I missed the window one, cuz I didn't realize it was going to be airing. Is it worth catching online and enduring the excruciating commercials? 

Well, I just watched it online and got my degree as a pharmaceutical diagnostician at the same time. ;)  So, I say, no, it wasn't worth it because even without all the drug ads it was a bit tedious and as the above comments show the ending wasn't very satisfactory. 

Craig was a jerk, but there was enough contrary evidence from the defense to have left me with a reasonable doubt.

Edited February 27, 2023 by JudyObscure

[12catcrazy]

55 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I missed the window one, cuz I didn't realize it was going to be airing. Is it worth catching online and enduring the excruciating commercials? 

I actually watched it in "real time" and put up with the commercials (something I almost never do).  

I didn't think it was the most interesting of episodes but it was very sad.  It featured original sloppy police work in a European locale, a father who smelled something fishy, friends who agreed with Dad, and a husband who I think was guilty as sin.  *shrugs*.

[GiandujaPie]

Regarding The Window:

I went back and forth on this one. I did think that Hannah's mental health history made it entirely plausible that she impetuously started going out the window herself in an attempt to commit suicide and then changed her mind as she started sliding down the side of the building. The mechanics of the window made it impossible to just jump out and so I can believe that once she started falling she realized what a mistake she made. I didn't actually notice how far off the floor the window was, but if it was high up, doesn't that also make it really difficult for someone to lift her up and over it in order to throw her off? 

I did think Craig's behavior was controlling and abusive - the idea of a surprise wedding/elopement sounds romantic but he didn't include any of her family? The only friend he included was also the only one who defended him at his trial. It does sound like he was trying to isolate her from family and friends who didn't like him. I've been in a relationship like that and I recognize that as a red flag. And Craig did appear to lie about how bad her drinking was, but she did have a history of acting erratically when drinking. 

I'm really not sure about this one. I do think based on what we were shown on Dateline that there was reasonable doubt due to Hannah's history but I do think Craig was probably a controlling SOB. 

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Nobody seemed to consider the possibility that it was just an accident. Like it had to be either murder or suicide. But the way that weird window swung outward made me think it was entirely possible that Hannah just accidentally toppled out while trying to either open or close it.

The sister-in-law (husband's sister) referred to it as an accident a few times but I couldn't tell if she though it was an accident or she couldn't bring herself to say suicide.

I watched when I was sleepy so I might have misheard but the thing I don't get is why going feet first is suddenly evidence of murder while going head first is more likely to be suicide.  I'd think it'd be easier to push the head/body of a person out instead of going legs first.  The heaviest part of a person is their top half.  Given the positioning of the window, that'd matter.

She also could have jumped and changed her mind. 

2 hours ago, sempervivum said:

I wish we had seen more of the apartment. From what they showed of the outside, it looked like there were recessed balconies on the upper floors. Even if Hanna had wanted to suicide, that bedroom window was really high off the floor, and not even very wide; if there were a balcony, that would seem easier, no?

Again, I was sleepy when watching, but I don't think their apartment was multiple floors.  It said they rented the "penthouse" of the building.  Given the way the windows were, I suspect the "penthouse" is actually the attic apartment. I suspect all of their windows were in a similar style.

2 hours ago, sempervivum said:

But then, I never understand women who have affairs instead of just going to a divorce lawyer. She had plenty of time while he was out of the country on assignment.

Not only an affair but an affair with his friend.  The whole situation was messy.  It's easy to believe she killed herself given he documented history of mental illness.  It's easy to believe he was abusive, given some of the things he did--who throws a surprise wedding?    It's easy to believe he killed her. A lot of his behavior was highly suspicious.