All Episodes Discussion

[cooksdelight]

14 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Still think she is guilty as hell.

How did Katie get the second dose in her at the hospital, when only Bill was with her?

It’s little things like that which drive me crazy in that the defense attorney let so much stuff slip by. She deserves a new trial with new counsel, if anything.

[biakbiak]

17 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

How did Katie get the second dose in her at the hospital, when only Bill was with her?

You are deciding that her sister is accurate that there was a second dose, i dont believe that is accurate. The way the body processes the drug could also account for the drug showing elevated signs.

Quote

It’s little things like that which drive me crazy in that the defense attorney let so much stuff slip by. She deserves a new trial with new counsel, if anything.

She had two separate defense teams and both let "this little thing" skip by because they couldn't get the doctors who treated her to say there had to be a second dose.

The fact that neither defense team allowed her on the stand speaks volumes.

But hey I think she is where she belongs and I don't think there are mysteries to the case so I will bow out of the discussion.

[UsernameFatigue]

52 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Here is the Article. which outlines that it is under direct testimony by the prosecution not the defense and the defense follow up seemed weak and doesn't appear to state that Mary was cuttng him off. 

It also includes the fact that Kaitlyn repeatedly violated her home arrest to go out eating.

It was Mary's sisters who said that Mary had had enough of giving Adam money and him being irresponsible, so she decided that she needed to employ tough love, and cut him off. 

I did go back, and yes it was one of Adam's sisters who said (tearfully of course) that Adam went to his mother for everything. The sister who had not had anything to do with her mother, father, brother or sister for over 6 years. Was completely estranged from them all. So the last time she would have seen Adam and Mary interact, he was a teenager. Lol. 

Katie's sisters said on Dateline that Adam was not close to his family, and talked down where his mother was concerned (as is talked badly about her). It sounded like they actually confronted him about that as they said that they knew Mary and thought she was a wonderful lady, and could not understand how Adam could talk about her the way he did. 

In Katie's letter she said that Adam thought he would get money when his mother died. He certainly needed it since he owed Katie not a small sum, and had no interest in getting a job to pay her back. In fact it sounds like he never did get his life together as at the time of the trial he was selling time shares. I assume he still owes Katie $15,000. (One way to get out of paying her - set her up). 

I don't know if Katie did it or not, but could not convict based on what I have read and heard. In the interview with the prosecutor he said he thought Katie did try to kill Mary. But then he asked for the manslaughter choice (which would mean she didn't mean to kill Mary). I think the prosecution was running scared and that is why they brought it in. And given that the first jury was hung, I don't think they had nearly the strong case that he thought they had. I also think the defense teams didn't think Katie would be convicted since the prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (and IMO didn't). I don't think she got a good defense either time - will be interesting to see if she is granted an appeal. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by UsernameFatigue

[truebluesmoky]

I found a few articles that mentioned Katie’s history of deception in her relationship with Adam, including this one...

 

[cooksdelight]

Her phone backed up to Adam’s computer??? Holy hell! If her computer was backed up somewhere also, Adam would know ahead of time that she was ratting him out to the police.

[nora1992]

Bill won't win any husband of the year contests, but why would he want to get rid of his wife when she was the one who brought all the money in?  Was there an insurance policy too?  If he didn't want to share the inheritance in a divorce, why not get a divorce after the 35-year mark?  How could Adam have done it when he was 300 miles away?  Did ANYONE have a strong reason to want Mary dead?  And yet she is.  And only one person tried to share suspicions through an anonymous letter, instead of calling the police and telling what she knew in person. 

Katie reminds me of liars I've known, whose lies I've fallen for: everything seems so plausible, until questioned.  Once questioned, there is more hostility than cooperation: how DARE you question me?  Which is then followed by crocodile tears: but I'm only trying the BEST for YOU.  These lies then lead to divisions, as the liar had enjoyed widespread popularity before the incident; even after the lie was proven to be false, the popularity remained.  I'm projecting my own bias into the situation, but given the evidence that was presented, and the resemblance to the most devastating liars I've encountered, I think she did it. 

[ButterQueen]

17 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

There are alot of things that Dateline did not bring up. Mary's sisters have posted on Dateline's FB page about some of this, also the interview link posted on this site from one of Mary's sisters. In addition there is a website started by Kaitlyn's family which I think also had the info regarding the money Adam owed Katie. But I have read it in more than one place.

Facts....things that can be proven, are presented in court.  Not FB posts and opinions.

16 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

There’s your motive. 

Dad’s motive was to free himself from his wife so he could continue canoodling with her rich sister. And keep the $400K for himself.

I still can’t find one for Katie. Not one that would make any sense.

Motive does not have to be proven.  People kill for less all the time.

16 hours ago, biakbiak said:

You are deciding that her sister is accurate that there was a second dose, i dont believe that is accurate. The way the body processes the drug could also account for the drug showing elevated signs.

She had two separate defense teams and both let "this little thing" skip by because they couldn't get the doctors who treated her to say there had to be a second dose.

The fact that neither defense team allowed her on the stand speaks volumes.

But hey I think she is where she belongs and I don't think there are mysteries to the case so I will bow out of the discussion.

AMEN

4 hours ago, nora1992 said:

Bill won't win any husband of the year contests, but why would he want to get rid of his wife when she was the one who brought all the money in?  Was there an insurance policy too?  If he didn't want to share the inheritance in a divorce, why not get a divorce after the 35-year mark?  How could Adam have done it when he was 300 miles away?  Did ANYONE have a strong reason to want Mary dead?  And yet she is.  And only one person tried to share suspicions through an anonymous letter, instead of calling the police and telling what she knew in person. 

Katie reminds me of liars I've known, whose lies I've fallen for: everything seems so plausible, until questioned.  Once questioned, there is more hostility than cooperation: how DARE you question me?  Which is then followed by crocodile tears: but I'm only trying the BEST for YOU.  These lies then lead to divisions, as the liar had enjoyed widespread popularity before the incident; even after the lie was proven to be false, the popularity remained.  I'm projecting my own bias into the situation, but given the evidence that was presented, and the resemblance to the most devastating liars I've encountered, I think she did it. 

My mom just passed away. ??

Inheritances do not have to be shared with the spouse.

[UsernameFatigue]

14 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Facts....things that can be proven, are presented in court.  Not FB posts and opinions.

 

I was replying to a poster who said she had never heard of Adam owing Katie money, and Mary applying tough love with Adam and finally cutting him off financially. They were facts, not 'opinions'. The money was discussed in court - (as I posted as well). Just because Dateline didn't cover it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Lol. 

[ButterQueen]

6 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I was replying to a poster who said she had never heard of Adam owing Katie money, and Mary applying tough love with Adam and finally cutting him off financially. They were facts, not 'opinions'. The money was discussed in court - (as I posted as well). Just because Dateline didn't cover it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Lol. 

Who testified that Mary was going to cut Adam off financially?

[MonicaM]

My opinion on this case seems to flip flop depending on what I've just read.  It's not often Dateline covers a case that leads to so many comments with different viewpoints on this forum, and normally I'm firmly convinced about guilt or innocence by the end of the episode.  Good job, Dateline.  Unlike most of your episodes, this one seems to remain a real "who done it".  Or at least "who else was involved".  

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, ButterQueen said:

My mom just passed away. ??

Inheritances do not have to be shared with the spouse.

Condolences on your loss.

[ButterQueen]

54 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Condolences on your loss.

Thank you!  Christmas is hard this year.  ?

[cooksdelight]

Bless you, @ButterQueen, I lost my mother two days after she turned 60, before Christmas. 

[mythoughtis]

When one of Mary's sisters was being interviewed, she related a story about Mary stopping by to see her a few weeks before she died.  She remembered it because she said something to the affect of 'in all the years I've lived there, Mary had never just stopped by.  So just how close were these sisters with Mary?   They refer to Katie in the FB article above as Kaitlyn.   If they had really had  any kind of a relationship with her, they would refer to her as Katie.

Katie went out to eat on house arrest 9 times according to the article linked above. She was warned if  she did it again, she would be in jail until the trial was over.   If I were innocent, I'd be following instructions regarding the ankle bracelet to the letter.  

[walnutqueen]

22 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

My mom just passed away. ??

I am so sorry for you loss, @ButterQueen.   Mine passed away last year just before Thanksgiving.  

[ButterQueen]

Godspeed to all our parents who aren't here to celebrate the holidays with us, and share our endless love for true crime.  ?❤️?❤️

[saber5055]

Gosh, I came here to catch up on episodes and instead am wiping away tears. My heart breaks for you, ButterQueen, and Walnut and Cooks and everyone else who has lost a parent or loved one. While it's better now, I remember the difficulties I had getting through those holidays much less every "normal" day after losing my mom and family. Hugs to all of you.

[One Tough Cookie]

Condolences, ButterQueen.  My MIL has been sick and its awful to watch someone struggle.   ((((( )))))

[JudyObscure]

The Favorite Son.  Interesting. 

That Mickie, the mother, was a piece of work; snapping at Josh, smirking throughout, and even now, not the least bit sorry that she stole a ring from her daughter, replaced it with a fake, and set off a feud that aided the murderer and caused her son to die while hating his sister. Poor Kelly, she loved her brother and lost him and she has a mother who never tried to hide the fact that she really doesn't love her all that much.

I kind of hate jewelry.  So much value placed on little rocks.  So many people, including Josh, who can't pronounce the word and call it jew-la-ry. 

I wonder who got the car repair shop with all it's debts?

[Wings]

Yep @JudyObscure. That was something.  Micky was ultimately an accessory  in her favorite son's death.  Kelly played a part too.  Fighting with her brother on the phone on his wedding day was horrific.  

However he would have  met the same fate without the ring incident since it had nothing to do with his murder.  I have to believe that Micky's skewed self, influenced her son's development in ways that brought him to his life style that ultimately did him in.   

That mother was strange and very skewed.  Creepy, really.  

Edited December 9, 2017 by wings707

[teebax]

21 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Yep @JudyObscure. That was something.  Micky was ultimately an accessory  in her favorite son's death.  Kelly played a part too.  Fighting with her brother on the phone on his wedding day was horrific.  

However he would probably have  met the same fate at some point but maybe not as soon. 

That mother was strange and very skewed.  Creepy, really.  

Agreed. She was nasty and also combative with Josh. Of course parents have favorites, but you're not supposed to make it obvious! Taking that ring was an awful thing to do, and she doesn't seem to have an ounce of remorse. 

I knew it was the partner when they didn't show his interview with the police. Everything else was a red herring, and this episode could've been an hour long. 

[Wings]

30 minutes ago, teebax said:

Agreed. She was nasty and also combative with Josh. Of course parents have favorites, but you're not supposed to make it obvious! Taking that ring was an awful thing to do, and she doesn't seem to have an ounce of remorse. 

I knew it was the partner when they didn't show his interview with the police. Everything else was a red herring, and this episode could've been an hour long. 

I don't agree.  Some may, but not many.  I have 2 sons and the relationship I have with each one is different.  I 'favor' one son for aspects of our relationship and the other for different things.   Across the board it is even.  

[AZChristian]

33 minutes ago, teebax said:

Agreed. She was nasty and also combative with Josh. Of course parents have favorites, but you're not supposed to make it obvious! Taking that ring was an awful thing to do, and she doesn't seem to have an ounce of remorse. 

I knew it was the partner when they didn't show his interview with the police. Everything else was a red herring, and this episode could've been an hour long. 

Or less.  

[teebax]

11 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I don't agree.  Some may, but not many.  I have 2 sons and the relationship I have with each one is different.  I 'favor' one son for aspects of our relationship and the other for different things.   Across the board it is even.  

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, and it's not something I'm going to argue about. Your experience is different from mine. 

[Wings]

Just now, teebax said:

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, and it's not something I'm going to argue about. Your experience is different from mine. 

I never look for anyone to agree!   I was just stating my own opinion.  Nothing more.  :^)  Everyone is entitled to their opinion always.  

[Guest]

I was a bit stunned when I saw the episode was about the Palladin Murders.  I am from that area.  I read Delawareonline every day but always skipped over the Palladin Murders because I just assumed it was more drug dealings gone bad and I really didn't have the time to devote to it.   It was a really big deal when it happened but Delaware is so small once there's a story the local paper will glom on it for years.  They just did a 20 year rehash of the Ann Marie Fahey murder.

My niece took her car at that shop for repair since it was so close to her work.  I remember her mentioning that she'd need to find a new place but again, I didn't catch on to the whole story. 

Mom came off as a blowsy broad  One of those women who thinks it's cute to say whatever she wants.  Maybe sometime it will get through her foggy brain that her actions caused a lot of pain.  I cannot tell you how many clients of mine still carry the pain that mom or dad "had a favorite".   Joey may have been her favorite but she really needed to keep that to herself.

No doubt, obnoxious mom was auditioning for the Real Housewives of Wilmington.  

[ButterQueen]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

I never look for anyone to agree!   I was just stating my own opinion.  Nothing more.  :^)  Everyone is entitled to their opinion always.  

I do not understand having a favorite child either.  I love all mine equally.

That mother was a loon.

[ari333]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The Favorite Son.  Interesting. 

That Mickie, the mother, was a piece of work; snapping at Josh, smirking throughout, and even now, not the least bit sorry that she stole a ring from her daughter, replaced it with a fake, and set off a feud that aided the murderer and caused her son to die while hating his sister. Poor Kelly, she loved her brother and lost him and she has a mother who never tried to hide the fact that she really doesn't love her all that much.

I kind of hate jewelry.  So much value placed on little rocks.  So many people, including Josh, who can't pronounce the word and call it jew-la-ry. 

I wonder who got the car repair shop with all it's debts?

THIS ^^^

The male victim's mother seemed kind of off ; and what a shit thing to do to her daughter after she GAVE her the effing ring. Then add insult to injury replacing it with zircs. Um I gave you the ring, but now I want to give it to your sister-in-law to be. Damn. I never suspected the sister. SOmething about her seemed normal and innocent. I wasn't really buying the russian angle either here.

[LGGirl]

Mickie reminds me of my MIL, so this hits close to home.

Josh and Mickie deserved each other.   She made him what he is.  Her remaining children should not have anything to do with her.  

The incident with the ring was despicable.   Both Mickie and Josh were just as bad.   It’s sad that her bother is dead and the estrangement with her mother but Kelly really is better off with out them.  

[Enigma X]

Someone up thread said Mickie was a piece of work.  I think Mickie was a piece of shit. She is horrible. And although some parents might have favorites not all do.

[ari333]

I may have missed something, but why couldn't the dude buy Olga a ring? It had to be mom's? and mom had  to clip it from the sister? I kind of hated that mother. The business partner was a nightmare.

[walnutqueen]

Mothers and their precious "favorite sons".  Yeah - nothing has ever been written about THAT subject!  ;-)

[Wings]

1 hour ago, ari333 said:

THIS ^^^

The male victim's mother seemed kind of off ; and what a shit thing to do to her daughter after she GAVE her the effing ring. Then add insult to injury replacing it with zircs. Um I gave you the ring, but now I want to give it to your sister-in-law to be. Damn. I never suspected the sister. SOmething about her seemed normal and innocent. I wasn't really buying the russian angle either here.

I agree.  Using Occam's razor, business partner was the most likely suspect.  

Edited December 9, 2017 by wings707

[rwgrab]

So the familial relationships seem to be based on adversarial behavior and bad feelings.  What a great environment!   Oof, that mother Mickie!  Honestly after you give somebody something, it's really crappy to ask for it back, so that would have been bad enough.  But to lie and say you just want to borrow it, then destroy it by removing the diamonds and try to keep it a secret?  That's next-level inconsiderate.  I also like how she said it was all Joey's idea to replace the diamonds with fakes.  If they were "just as good", why not make Olga's ring out of the cubic zirconia and avoid any bad feelings?  No, it's much better to steal from your family members to get things you can't afford, I guess.  

And on that note, why didn't they explain where all the money came from for Joey and Olga's fancy car, nice lifestyle, and lavish vacations?  I know nothing about the market value of steroids, but I'm going to guess that selling them wouldn't explain all of that.   I'm not saying that had anything to do with the murder necessarily, but I think we as viewers are smart enough to get that Chris orchestrated this without having to tell the story as "Chris = bad, Joey = good".   Dateline raised the question of their financial situation, and then they don't answer it. 

[sinycalone]

Chris, the business partner was the truly evil one in The Favorite Son.  I might have been disgusted by the mother's behavior....but she did not cause Joey's death.

Chris was laying the groundwork for the murders of Joey and Olga for a long time....ordering the burglary, making sure the workers at the garage knew of Joey's steroid use and sales, fabricating stories about Joey taking money from the business and his being lazy, etc.  All because Chris had a real drug problem and was siphoning money from the garage.  (I'm guessing he also embezzled the $140K the other man put into the business).  Of course, there was also the insurance factor.

My guess about the expensive car and vacations ... both of them were collecting paychecks from the garage which covered the costs of those items.  However, their apartment/condo was not lavish, and I don't believe Dateline talked about Joey and Olga have huge debts...so I doubt they were really tossing $$ around foolishly.

Edited December 9, 2017 by sinycalone

[ari333]

17 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I agree.  Using Occam's razor, business partner was the most likely suspect.  

I had a business partner back in the day. We were also significant others and had our business and lives together . I asked my atty if we should get life insurance in case one of us dies and it left the other in dire straits. He said, "not unless you wanna get murdered." He said it with a straight face and it gave me the chills.  I did not get the insurance. and it was a right move. Cut to years later --My partner betrayed me with a younger trustfund chippy. I would have maybe been toast.

[Wings]

2 minutes ago, ari333 said:

I had a business partner back in the day. We were also significant others and had our business and lives together . I asked my atty if we should get life insurance in case one of us dies and it left the other in dire straits. He said, "not unless you wanna get murdered." He said it with a straight face and it gave me the chills.  I did not get the insurance. and it was a right move. Cut to years later --My partner betrayed me with a younger trustfund chippy. I would have maybe been toast.

Fascinating!!!

[applecrisp]

Yeah, favorite son was an ashole. Only felt bad for the sister.

[UsernameFatigue]

As others have said, I hated the mother in this epi. What I didn't understand was she said that she gave the ring to Joey, and he had the idea to take out the diamonds and replace them with fakes. And that she supposedly said "Oh, you can't do that!".  So what did she think was going to happen? She lies to the daughter to get the ring, then gives it to Joey and he gives it to Olga intact? And THAT is OK? They were both POS's - the apple didn't fall far from the tree. 

I agree that the show could have been an hour, and all I really wanted to know was if the mother gave Olga's ring back to her daughter so that she could replace in her own ring the fake diamonds with the real ones her mother/brother stole from her. But since it was never mentioned I would assume Mickey kept Olga's new ring and left the daughter with the old setting and fake diamonds. 

When they were showing Joey and Olga at their destination wedding, my hubby said "It looks like they could afford to go to a nice place for their wedding. Why couldn't he buy his wife a ring himself?"  Exactly! 

[Whimsy]

6 hours ago, wings707 said:

I don't agree.  Some may, but not many.  I have 2 sons and the relationship I have with each one is different.  I 'favor' one son for aspects of our relationship and the other for different things.   Across the board it is even.  

I feel exactly the same way about my daughters. 

3 hours ago, ari333 said:

I may have missed something, but why couldn't the dude buy Olga a ring? It had to be mom's? and mom had  to clip it from the sister? I kind of hated that mother. The business partner was a nightmare.

I don’t get why he needed that ring either considering he didn’t even want the ring. He just wanted the diamonds out of it. That mother is disgusting. She lied about accusing her daughter too. I feel so bad for Kelly. That makther loved her daughter-in-law more than her own daughter. 

[BusyOctober]

Aside from the actual people involved in committing the murder, I found the mother and her dead son to be horrible people too.  Joe was a loud mouth roid rager who had bad, criminal habits and grifted his sister’s ring.  Mad as a hatter Momma Mickey was an abhorrent person who thought she was too cute for teevee.  She came off as a little unhinged in her interactions with Josh during her interviews.  I hope the surviving siblings can be supportive of each other, and just see Mad Mickey on the occasional holiday.

[Guest]

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/15/parents-squabble-over-auto-shop-murder-victims-estate/6466699/

I found this article about Joey's will.

Jackals.

[Wings]

9 minutes ago, PsychoKlown said:

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/15/parents-squabble-over-auto-shop-murder-victims-estate/6466699/

I found this article about Joey's will.

Jackals.

Tacky low life creeps.  

[MerBearHou]

1 hour ago, PsychoKlown said:

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/15/parents-squabble-over-auto-shop-murder-victims-estate/6466699/

I found this article about Joey's will.

Jackals.

It's extra-interesting to read this, now that we know the outcome of the murder investigation.  I could not stand that tacky, self-absorbed mother in her Dateline interviews and now reading this article further adds to her being an absolute lowlife.  At times it seemed like she was being weirdly cutesy flirtatious with Josh.  John and Kelly need to stay far, far away from their mother.

Edited December 9, 2017 by MerBearHou

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

Mothers and their precious "favorite sons".  Yeah - nothing has ever been written about THAT subject!  ;-)

Heh :D.

Yeah, add me to the list of people who found the mother irritating as hell. 

Also, Kelly looked a lot like Darlene from "Roseanne".

4 hours ago, ari333 said:

I had a business partner back in the day. We were also significant others and had our business and lives together . I asked my atty if we should get life insurance in case one of us dies and it left the other in dire straits. He said, "not unless you wanna get murdered." He said it with a straight face and it gave me the chills.  I did not get the insurance. and it was a right move. Cut to years later --My partner betrayed me with a younger trustfund chippy. I would have maybe been toast.

...wow. 

Charming. Yeesh  Sorry you went through that. 

[AZChristian]

I used to be a notary.  The seller's signature on a title has to be notarized.  If they forged the son's signature, the notary had to be in on it, either by not requiring ID from the signer (which was impossible if he was dead), or through collusion and/or stupidity.  Either way, the transfer of title was fraudulent and Mama ought to be facing charges.

[cooksdelight]

Mickie makes crack whores look like nice, normal people.

[Blissfool]

3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 

Also, Kelly looked a lot like Darlene from "Roseanne".

 

I thought so too. And Mickie had a Roseanne way of speaking.

[JD5166]

On 12/7/2017 at 9:55 AM, ButterQueen said:

Godspeed to all our parents who aren't here to celebrate the holidays with us, and share our endless love for true crime.  ?❤️?❤️

Here I sit in my deceased mom’s chair watching ID at this moment! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[sainte-chapelle]

Arg this whole family is trash, But with Mickie as a mother they come by it honestly. Kelly was a piece of work too, calling Olga on her wedding day to start a fight. Poor sweet Joey who went to prison for 7 years because he had the arrogance to believe he did nothing wrong. Mickie is a loon and acted the part well during her interview.