S03.E04: Part Four - No Win Scenario

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

The whole baldness thing: It may be hereditary (unlike British accents) yet there must be an easy cure by the TNG era. I've always assumed Jean-Luc's staying blad was a cosmetic choice. It makes sence, I've seen Patrick Stewart wearing wigs for various roles and he looks so much better bald.

They can use plastic surgery to make a human look like a Klingon, a Bajoran look like a Cardassian (and vice versa), and more.  A good hair transplant is trivial in the 24th century.  People must be less self conscious about their looks in general because of how easy it is to alter things with no apparent side effects.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

The Hirogen are native to the Delta Quadrant...  Picard & Worf went there on vacation? Hirogens invaded Alpha Quadrant? Idiot writers...

There is nothing inherently stopping a Hirogen from making their way to Alpha/Beta/Gamma Quadrants, or stopping the Ent-E (or some other Federation ship) from making its way to the Delta Quadrant again. The technology/natural phenomena/intervening aliens obviously exist that could cause a Delta Quadrant group to end up in the Alpha or vice versa: the Caretaker's array, natural wormholes, Q, the Prophets, slipstream drives have explicitly been shown in DS9 and Voyager to have the potential to traverse the sorts of distances we're talking about. Potentially such established things like the Guardian of Forever or the Ikonian teleportation devices might be able to do the trick. I'm sure there are other established tech that could potentially do it as well that aren't coming to mind, not to mention that for the purposes of this off-screen adventure any number of things could have brought it about.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Yes, by being absent from the battle.  By that logic every ship that wasn't at Wolf 359 survived.

Which makes you wonder, what does the captain do most of the time when there isn't a disaster or battle?  The department heads should be able to run things efficiently, and a lot of time is spent traveling from one assignment to another.  Did Jean-Luc just read Shakespeare and drink tea in his ready room for hours?

Well, retired Picard didn't have a lot of information about bases and ships, they would need to learn if Deep Space X was decomissioned, study the politics of wherever they are flying towards, and endlessly review reports, paperwork and staffing reviews.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Affogato

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

 

It makes more sense that the holodecks in the later starships have been engineered to have their own power source since the holodeck has been the main cause of numerous ship altering shenanigans across Trek shows.  

Absolutely this was the case but I'm not sure they wouldn't try to draw that power to the rest of the ship or put people in the holodeck to extend life support.

[iMonrey]

What exactly was the Nebula giving birth to? Jellyfish with eyeballs?

I'm unclear about that last shot of Picard and Jack looking at each other on the bridge. Did Picard remember that Jack was the kid who asked him about family five years ago?

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

LOL. And it is completely possible that Kirk shows up from the Nexus... but that would be bad writing. Because in order to draw the viewer into a sci-fi world, there needs to be some sort of internal logic that viewers can count on. That logic includes behaviors defined by the show and its characters, i.e. "what would make Starfleet sense during an emergency?" If things that are "possible" but are not consistent with the world's internal logic keep happening, then the show no longer makes sense and, like with Marvel's multiverse, anything can happen and nothing matters.

So while the fact pilot LaForge has a dad who once worked on old starships could indeed mean she has some knowledge of the manual nacelle controls (and that's a big assumption ... given all the parts of a starship, what are the odds that particular procedure ever came up over the dinner table?), it does not trump the logic that says if you have a star pilot and your ship is navigating in space during an emergency that you are a fool to send that pilot to be a *back up* to do an old, obscure engineering procedure.

Same is true for Seven saying she said to send no one to help them, given there is a shapeshifter who is likely to show up there so anyone who does show up is automatically suspect. The bridge is not likely to ignore that security procedure - *especially* to send someone who isn't even needed (how many times did Shaw and Seven say to the bridge, "we got this"?). 

The show is giving us clues, which make sense. Then it turns around and acts like no one saw the clues to give us an emotional moment or a quippy comment. That's the type of writing I'm calling out.

I will gladly attack the writing -- as I said above, it makes no sense for the Changeling to not have used any number of means at their disposal to impede Seven and Shaw from getting the nacelle covers loose, or for that matter capturing Jack.

But once you get over that, it is not a bad choice for the Changeling to pretend to be Crash. And it is not such an obvious wrong thing that Seven should have blasted "Crash" on sight. 

There is no internal inconsistency with Seven having expressed a wish to work alone and the bridge -- even knowing that there is a Changeling saboteur among them and knowing that Seven and Shaw are skilled and can take care of the job themselves -- sending additional help. 

If you have a "star pilot" (and I'm actually not sure that Crash qualifies as a star pilot, given her nickname) and X number of pretty good pilots available, it still may make sense to send the star pilot if she is the only one who is equipped to help with a task that is a prerequisite to anyone doing any piloting. Especially when completing the tasks is super critical to the ship's survival.

I'm sure one could come up with any number of precedents from Voyager when Seven expressed a wish to work alone or some other wish and Janeway/Chakotay or whoever ignored it. 

Even if we were to concede for argument's sake that the real bridge would never have ignored Seven's wishes, there's nothing inherently illogical with the Changeling pretending that they did, or so wrong that Seven should have blasted the Changeling immediately. Seven obviously was suspicious and so kept pushing until she had confirmation when the Changeling dead-named her. (Personally, I think it would have been funny if it had been the real Crash who called her "Commander Hansen" because Shaw was there and that was what Shaw made her be called.)

[Stardancer Supreme]

Or, Seven could have called for Sidney over the comm and heard her answer from the Bridge. But I let that slide just to hear Seven tell Shaw to put some respeck on her name. Heh.

[Affogato]

42 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What exactly was the Nebula giving birth to? Jellyfish with eyeballs?

I'm unclear about that last shot of Picard and Jack looking at each other on the bridge. Did Picard remember that Jack was the kid who asked him about family five years ago?

Yes he was 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

What exactly was the Nebula giving birth to? Jellyfish with eyeballs?

I'm unclear about that last shot of Picard and Jack looking at each other on the bridge. Did Picard remember that Jack was the kid who asked him about family five years ago?

It seemed to me that the nebula was giving birth to the same sort of alien space jellyfish that we saw in the TNG pilot Encounter at Farpoint.

I doubt that Picard remembered Jack was that kid.

Although that raises a question: a synth like Data has total recall of everything that they have experienced. Does Synth Picard have this as well? For all of Actual Picard's memories? Or not Actual Picard's memories, but all the moments he has experienced as Synth Picard? Or does he have the normal imperfect human sort of memories?

[tkc]

On 3/9/2023 at 8:01 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Beverly said that Jack went to school in London, so that's where he got his English accent and now sayings from.

Surely it's from having traveled back in time through a wormhole to serve as a footman at Downton Abbey:

By the way, loving the musical callbacks in the series -- how about that synth hit "booinnnggg" from V'ger and ST:TMP, with the accompanying Klingon theme!

Also, the First Contact theme now has a double meaning in the show -- not only with the Borg and Locutus reminder, but also with Picard's "first contact" with his son.

Edited March 10, 2023 by tkc

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seemed to me that the nebula was giving birth to the same sort of alien space jellyfish that we saw in the TNG pilot Encounter at Farpoint.

I doubt that Picard remembered Jack was that kid.

Although that raises a question: a synth like Data has total recall of everything that they have experienced. Does Synth Picard have this as well? For all of Actual Picard's memories? Or not Actual Picard's memories, but all the moments he has experienced as Synth Picard? Or does he have the normal imperfect human sort of memories?

I’m pretty sure Picard remembere Jack as ‘that kid’ from the way it was filmed. I’ e watched a tv show before. 
 

ig they didn’t fix his knees why would they fix his memory?

[TVbitch]

I grew up with these characters and will happily watch all of this (and more), but for me TNG ended when the TV series ended with what I thought was a great, full circle finale. Done.

As excited as I was about Picard, all three seasons strike me as Patrick Stewart writing some fan fiction, and that's cool, I'll certainly take a look. But, for me, Captain Picard was already a complete, well-fleshed out character. He didn't need a secret son so he could tussle with fatherhood at this age, or a tragic childhood, or to be shuffling onto a ship for yet another life or death adventure like Clint Eastwood still trying to be a badass. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Anyone else catch the name on the jettisoned portal weapon?

DAYSTROM INSTITUTE

[paigow]

What is the Kobayashi Maru solution??? Go to Holodeck and cry???

[Stardancer Supreme]

49 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Anyone else catch the name on the jettisoned portal weapon?

DAYSTROM INSTITUTE

 

Well, that is where it was stolen from in Episode one. Now we need to know what else was taken, or if the portal weapon was just a misdirect.  Since Vadic jettisoned it into space, will we no longer be threatened by it? 

[paigow]

35 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Since Vadic jettisoned it into space, will we no longer be threatened by it? 

Karma would see  Pakleds recover it and terrorize the galaxy like a berserk Wile E. Coyote that places holes in the desert

[statsgirl]

The holodeck has it's own independent power system so that when everyone is about to die, they can go to a fantasy world to wait so that they don't have to stress at their posts? Not sure that I support that.

I hope that there is a good reason why the mysterious floaty thing is willing to sacrifice the Shrike and all on board just to get Jack other than because he is the son of Jean Luc Picard. (I always hates the contrivance that JLP is so special he is right even when he is glaringly wrong.)

The battle at Wold 359 must have been so traumatic for Shaw, from the loss of his comrades to survivor guilt that no wonder he hates Picard.

Riker mentioned his dead son multiple times in the episode but his living daughter only once. The misogyny is toned down from TNG but still exists.

Gates McFadden looks fabulous for 72.

I missed Worf.

On 3/9/2023 at 6:01 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Picard to Jack: "You are what? 23? 24?" *Jack nods*

Have there been so many women in Picard's life that he doesn't remember when he tried to make a relationship work with Beverly?

That said, I liked the bar scene as an explanation for why Jack didn't seek out Picard to connect with him. I wouldn't have either.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I am not gonna say her name she might haunt my dreams, but you know who..she keeps saving the universe in the worse ST series ever.

Evasive maneuvers- Pattern Voldemort Delta 3

[Ottis]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I will gladly attack the writing -- as I said above, it makes no sense for the Changeling to not have used any number of means at their disposal to impede Seven and Shaw from getting the nacelle covers loose, or for that matter capturing Jack.

But once you get over that, it is not a bad choice for the Changeling to pretend to be Crash. And it is not such an obvious wrong thing that Seven should have blasted "Crash" on sight. 

There is no internal inconsistency with Seven having expressed a wish to work alone and the bridge -- even knowing that there is a Changeling saboteur among them and knowing that Seven and Shaw are skilled and can take care of the job themselves -- sending additional help. 

If you have a "star pilot" (and I'm actually not sure that Crash qualifies as a star pilot, given her nickname) and X number of pretty good pilots available, it still may make sense to send the star pilot if she is the only one who is equipped to help with a task that is a prerequisite to anyone doing any piloting. Especially when completing the tasks is super critical to the ship's survival.

I'm sure one could come up with any number of precedents from Voyager when Seven expressed a wish to work alone or some other wish and Janeway/Chakotay or whoever ignored it. 

Even if we were to concede for argument's sake that the real bridge would never have ignored Seven's wishes, there's nothing inherently illogical with the Changeling pretending that they did, or so wrong that Seven should have blasted the Changeling immediately. Seven obviously was suspicious and so kept pushing until she had confirmation when the Changeling dead-named her. (Personally, I think it would have been funny if it had been the real Crash who called her "Commander Hansen" because Shaw was there and that was what Shaw made her be called.)

We’ll have to agree to disagree. My comments were not about what the changeling thought, it was about what Shaw said, given the evidence he already knew, and what Shaw and Seven actually said.

BTW, given what Shaw knew (and what we knew as viewers), it actually would have made more sense from a writing POV for the changeling to imitate Seven in thr nacelle. Shaw would have expected Seven to be there (as would we), and even if the real Seven showed up at worst we would have a “which one is actually Seven?” Issue. That writing would have been consistent with leaving the pilot on the bridge in an emergency  (“Crash” during training aside, they had her with the first-stringers so odds are she is the best pilot they have), and with the bridge being smart enough to realize anyone sent to help would be suspect. It would have negated my objections.

[catsitter]

Does the Titan have any shuttles on board which they might have been able to make some use of in this situation, or was the one that Picard and Riker "borrowed" the only one? (I forget whether they got it back or not.)

[marinw]

I for one like the gross, blood and guts look to the Changeling when it is in goo form, I see it as a natural evolution in CGI since the 90's.

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, catsitter said:

Does the Titan have any shuttles on board which they might have been able to make some use of in this situation, or was the one that Picard and Riker "borrowed" the only one? (I forget whether they got it back or not.)

Vadic destroyed it...

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, marinw said:

I for one like the gross, blood and guts look to the Changeling when it is in goo form, I see it as a natural evolution in CGI since the 90's.

Not every shapeshifter is a Founder... The one that Worf killed looks like a DS9 Founder... but the one controlling Vadic might be completely unrelated... 

[RobertDeSneero]

We didn't visit Raffi and Worf because it would have disrupted the narrative flow of the episode, but there is an obvious path to the two plots converging, due to portal weapons and changelings.  

I feel like the correct storytelling next episode should involve Raffi and Worf figuring out the real reason for the break-in at the Daystrom Institute (home to the pieces of B-4 and, I would guess, Lore), possibly meeting Geordi along the way.  (Not holding my breathe for a Peanut Hamper cameo.)   If they also discover part of why Jack Crusher is being sought, this provides a natural reason for them to seek out Picard and unite the two halves of the story.

Going heavy on one storyline in this episode means they should go heavy on the other next episode.  The Titan took enough damage where they should have a long limp to a repair facility where we don't need to check in on them and can ignore them for an episode.

[CarpeFelis]

On 3/9/2023 at 5:24 PM, marinw said:

Nitpick: Don't they have EVA suits for when life support goes down?

I had the same thought. Or at least oxygen masks.

When the Changeling pretending to be LaForge said she could help because she was the daughter of a great engineer, all I could think was: since when does that make you one? I’m a retired software engineer and my daughter knows zip about coding.

[Prevailing Wind]

24 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

When the Changeling pretending to be LaForge said she could help because she was the daughter of a great engineer, all I could think was: since when does that make you one? I’m a retired software engineer and my daughter knows zip about coding.

Likewise, the only thing I know about driving big rigs is not to cut them off. (Daddy was a Teamster.)

[paigow]

On 3/9/2023 at 8:24 PM, marinw said:

Nitpick: Don't they have EVA suits for when life support goes down?

They did... But Discovery came back from the future and stole them...

[txhorns79]

On 3/9/2023 at 8:28 PM, paigow said:

Sisko had more of a grudge against Locutus / Picard because it cost him real, not metaphorical family...

It was also a much more recent situation for Sisko when he met Picard, as opposed to it having been a few decades.  I thought that was a great scene.  It makes you wonder how many people have confronted Picard by this point to say something, as his response by now is to simply take it and walk away when it gets to be too much. 

[Pallas]

17 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It was also a much more recent situation for Sisko when he met Picard, as opposed to it having been a few decades.  I thought that was a great scene.  It makes you wonder how many people have confronted Picard by this point to say something, as his response by now is to simply take it and walk away when it gets to be too much. 

In Picard's scene with Sisko, after Sisko spits out how they first met, Picard/Stewart does a lovely, subtle thing: he just gets a little quieter. Not softer, but smoother: less staccato, less robust, and even more deliberate. Not anything so overt as a tiny flinch or a tremor of an eyelid. All that his manner gives away is, "I acknowledge the terrible truth of your suffering, and your feeling that I dealt it out to you. I can't give more and remain in command. And in command I remain."

With Shaw, though, he simply tells Jack, "It's all right," and then looks at Shaw with compassion and sorrow. "It's all right." He accepts that the victims of his actions as Locutus have found him even in the last few hours of his life, and accepts that this is just. And these are his final word on that.

"A Borg so deadly that they gave him a name." Shaw's great line is a curse that speaks directly to what Picard has always known is true: that the Borg not only made Picard into Locutus; they made Locutus from Picard. Not all or most of him, of course, but something essential, that was inalienably him. Not his will, which they dismantled, nor only his peerless strategic mind, which they suborned, but something that's empowered every heart he's ever owned: his drive. The way that Jean-Luc Picard wants to set the world on fire. 

[readster]

22 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is nothing inherently stopping a Hirogen from making their way to Alpha/Beta/Gamma Quadrants, or stopping the Ent-E (or some other Federation ship) from making its way to the Delta Quadrant again. The technology/natural phenomena/intervening aliens obviously exist that could cause a Delta Quadrant group to end up in the Alpha or vice versa: the Caretaker's array, natural wormholes, Q, the Prophets, slipstream drives have explicitly been shown in DS9 and Voyager to have the potential to traverse the sorts of distances we're talking about. Potentially such established things like the Guardian of Forever or the Ikonian teleportation devices might be able to do the trick. I'm sure there are other established tech that could potentially do it as well that aren't coming to mind, not to mention that for the purposes of this off-screen adventure any number of things could have brought it about.

Plus, protostar warp drives are a thing. There was even a mentioned briefly in season 1 how various ships have different warp drives for various reasons. With: "Only so much material to go around". 

[PurpleTentacle]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Not every shapeshifter is a Founder... The one that Worf killed looks like a DS9 Founder... but the one controlling Vadic might be completely unrelated... 

Well all shapeshifters who broke away from the great link to wage guerilla war on the federation are founders and the one Worf killed looked just as fleshy as the one on the Titan and the one on Vadics hand. It would be very weird if they weren't the same species, with them looking exactly the same, being in the same terrorist organisation, etc..

15 hours ago, marinw said:

I for one like the gross, blood and guts look to the Changeling when it is in goo form, I see it as a natural evolution in CGI since the 90's.

Why would something that can turn into a pane of glass look like blood and guts though? How does it make those guts invisible? I wish all of this was thought through a bit better.

If Changelings could only turn into organic things, I wouldn't have as big of a problem with this, but that's just not the case.

 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

the one on Vadics hand.

does not seem to have the same regeneration / recovery requirement. Her hand never seemed to lose structural integrity on its own... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Riker mentioned his dead son multiple times in the episode but his living daughter only once. The misogyny is toned down from TNG but still exists.

...

Have there been so many women in Picard's life that he doesn't remember when he tried to make a relationship work with Beverly?

That said, I liked the bar scene as an explanation for why Jack didn't seek out Picard to connect with him. I wouldn't have either.

I don't think Riker mentioning Thad multiple times but not Kestra at all to be misogyny. If Kestra had died and left him with regrets and Thad had lived, if he had the scare about Kestra's birth, it's not like he wouldn't have mentioned Kestra. 

I think it's natural for him to not know Jack's exact age. Knowing the last time he and Bev hooked up tells you a range of when a baby could be born as a result. That 2-9 month window could result in someone being either 23 or 24. 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Well, that is where it was stolen from in Episode one. Now we need to know what else was taken, or if the portal weapon was just a misdirect.  Since Vadic jettisoned it into space, will we no longer be threatened by it? 

I don't think that there is any reason to think that the Shrike's portal weapon is the only one in existence. They could have used the one they stole to be the basis for multiple weapons at this point.

But even assuming that it is a unique piece of technology that hasn't been duplicated, I would presume that when the Shrike repairs itself from being hit with a goddamned asteroid, it will get out of the nebula and retrieve the portal weapon that Our Heroes didn't take the time to recover AFAIK. 

[Tyro49]

Did you notice how Jack looked older and older as the episode progressed? By the end he almost looked like an old man! Also, there's something in his head! Something is very not right here. The other characters act like they don't notice his appearance.

Also, for all the speculation that Jack might actually be a changeling or something worse, what if Beverly isn't Beverly! Has anyone else thought of that, or thought to have her checked out? That might account for her odd behavior.

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:39 PM, cambridgeguy said:

They can use plastic surgery to make a human look like a Klingon, a Bajoran look like a Cardassian (and vice versa), and more.  A good hair transplant is trivial in the 24th century.  People must be less self conscious about their looks in general because of how easy it is to alter things with no apparent side effects.

I remember a Roddenberry quote from when TNG was starting, about how it wasn't that there was no cure for baldness by the 24th century, it was that by the 24th century, nobody cared whether people were bald or not.

 

Vadik speaking to her 'boss'.  Guess that gives a new meaning to 'talk to the hand'.

 

[marceline]

The scene where the young ones approached Picard over dinner cracked me up because years ago I saw Brent Spiner at Wizard World Chicago in 2009 or 2010 and he told a story where Stewart went off on some fans who approached him during dinner. Apparently he hates that.

Spiner does a perfect impression of Stewart BTW.

 

[Ottis]

41 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I remember a Roddenberry quote from when TNG was starting, about how it wasn't that there was no cure for baldness by the 24th century, it was that by the 24th century, nobody cared whether people were bald or not.

I didn't think anyone cared about that now. I mean, sure, shallow people who also care about what brand shoes someone wears, or watch, but aside from that, bald is an actual normal look. There are women who shave their heads as well. One is on ESPN, not sure anyone cares that she does.

39 minutes ago, marceline said:

The scene where the young ones approached Picard over dinner cracked me up because years ago I saw Brent Spiner at Wizard World Chicago in 2009 or 2010 and he told a story where Stewart went off on some fans who approached him during dinner. Apparently he hates that.

I've always been fascinated by the actors' relationship with Star Trek. They have to live it, so I don't know what they experience. But it seems like a good number of them don't appreciate it. A William Shatner digression ... back around 2010 or so, a new outfit called something like "Live Autograph" let you request greetings from your favorite stars for money. One of my close friends paid to have Bill Shatner say a few things that were both a play on my name and famous lines from Star Trek. So they sent me the video, and Shatner ... refused to do it. He sent me a video, but it was of him stumbling around verbally, saying my name and adding "I know you have it in you." I've read about him enough to feel pretty sure he viewed saying those lines along the line of being a trained monkey, and it annoyed him, I'm sure. It's too bad, though, I would have really enjoyed it. I can see Stewart feeling similarly about his privacy.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Ottis

[Prevailing Wind]

Warren Zevon once told a story of being in a craft store (?) and running into, as he said, "James Effing Coburn!"  He was in such awe, all he could say was, "Thank you," and Coburn replied, "You're welcome, man."  That's all any celebrity owes to a fan, even Starfleet Admirals trying to have a haddock lunch.

[dwmarch]

On 3/10/2023 at 5:17 AM, paigow said:

Hirogens invaded Alpha Quadrant?

Yes, apparently so. One of the cadet asks "did you ever find out how they got to the quadrant?" She doesn't specify which one but it is implied that the Hirogen took a long road getting from there to here.

On 3/10/2023 at 6:33 AM, marinw said:

The whole baldness thing: It may be hereditary (unlike British accents) yet there must be an easy cure by the TNG era.

One of the things I have noticed in newer Star Trek (since the 2009 movie) is that the producers are spending much less time trying to say certain problems have been solved by future advancements. For example, Gene Roddenberry said there were no zippers in the future. But in Star Trek 2009 and onward, clothing clearly has zippers. Trek 2009 also showed us a building with a regular 21st century door on it. In this episode, Picard drinks whiskey that is unchanged from today and there is an ad for a type of beer that also exists today. I think the production crew got tired of having to reinvent products and come up with futuristic solutions to current problems. So instead of saying baldness is curable and anyone who goes bald does it by choice, they are just going to pretend the previous Roddenberry guidance (in general as regards society being a utopia where people didn't have common problems) wasn't a thing because they know that we the fans will come up with something to explain it.

In that spirit, why is there no cure for baldness? Because curing baldness requires a kind of genetic tampering that has been illegal in the Federation for hundreds of years. Look at that glorious mane Khan had. That is what happens when you try to cure baldness!

[MissLucas]

4 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Also, for all the speculation that Jack might actually be a changeling or something worse, what if Beverly isn't Beverly! Has anyone else thought of that, or thought to have her checked out? That might account for her odd behavior.

Interesting idea but I think most of her odd behavior can be explained by clunky writing.

Edited March 11, 2023 by MissLucas

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 PM, catsitter said:

Does the Titan have any shuttles on board which they might have been able to make some use of in this situation, or was the one that Picard and Riker "borrowed" the only one? (I forget whether they got it back or not.)

 

Vadic destroyed that one. 

20 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I had the same thought. Or at least oxygen masks.

When the Changeling pretending to be LaForge said she could help because she was the daughter of a great engineer, all I could think was: since when does that make you one? I’m a retired software engineer and my daughter knows zip about coding.

 

While I got a good fright knowing that wasn't the real Sidney, I also got a bit of second hand embarrassment because surely Sidney doesn't go around constantly name checking her father in every conversation with the Titan crew. Sis, we know who your daddy is. Would you really say that to the Captain who obviously knows who you are? I'm sure that "As my father Geordi LaForge, said..." tends to get tired after a while. Sidney can't be that annoying.

I still enjoyed Riker throwing an ateroid at the Shrike. He is still so scandalized that he had a starship thrown at him and that tickles me so much! 

[paigow]

5 hours ago, dwmarch said:

In that spirit, why is there no cure for baldness? Because curing baldness requires a kind of genetic tampering that has been illegal in the Federation for hundreds of years. Look at that glorious mane Khan had. That is what happens when you try to cure baldness!

The urban legend about Post It Notes is that a super glue formula failed and there were gallons of weak ass adhesive lying around 3M labs.... So in the late 20th century, Khan received anti-baldness shots that had unexpected side effects of superhuman strength and intellect????

[khiori sakkhet]

In general, I think this episode answered many questions that arose in our minds while watching the 3rd episode. Why Jack did not choose to get to know his father after he was told of his identity, if Vadic is a changeling (though there are some details to be ironed out), whether Vadic had a handler/superior, whether Vadic wanted Jack dead or just captured. Shaw's conversation with Seven about how he would say Seven is a good first officer and would make a excellent captain some day, if he weren't a douchebag, and Shaw's story of how he met Picard/Locutus are beautiful touches to explain how he has been behaving from the start. Now, he seems more like an at least fairly competent captain with a fragile soul behind some thick psychological walls, in other words, less like an adversary to the main characters and plainly just more human. Jack's visions are not even partly explained, let's cross our fingers in the next episode for that.

[SnarkShark]

Lord, morbid storytime with Picard, Grumpy Son, and Captain Asshole is pretty shiate.  

Beverly remembering she's a Scientist is at least something.

The stupid bar flashback and it's resolution once more proves my thesis that at every opportunity this series has been about proving Picard is an asshole. 

Still pissed that Picard's supposed 23 year old son looks 35, bare minimum.  Would it have been THAT hard to cast someone age appropriate?  

 

16 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Did you notice how Jack looked older and older as the episode progressed? By the end he almost looked like an old man! Also, there's something in his head! Something is very not right here. The other characters act like they don't notice his appearance.

Also, for all the speculation that Jack might actually be a changeling or something worse, what if Beverly isn't Beverly! Has anyone else thought of that, or thought to have her checked out? That might account for her odd behavior.

From his first appearance he's looked 35 instead of 23.  Can't say I noticed him looking ever older.  But... okay.  Let's see if they acknowledge that.

Edited March 12, 2023 by SnarkShark

[Cattoy]

On 3/9/2023 at 6:25 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The fact that it was deemed "bioelectric energy" suggests it might be birth.

The Titan holodeck apparently has a self-contained power system as stated in this episode. I'll buy the notion after X number of mishaps with the holodeck someone designed one that would be isolated from the rest of the ship, and also that it makes a good emergency shelter location.

I think Vadik was clearly a Changeling. She cut off her hand to put it on the communication device, and then reabsorbed it. I agree that Saboteur Changeling was criminally stupid.

I'd argue bio-electrical energy suggests a nervous system in general, not a reproductive system. To deduce it was a birth was pure bad writing.

My car has a self-contained power supply. It's called a battery. I can hook it up to another car to charge that car's battery. An energy source is an energy source. You might need to run it through a transformer to get the right voltage, or the future equivalent, but you can still use that power. It may be bad writing that goes back to Voyager, but it's still bad writing.

I missed her reabsorbing it. Whatever Vadik is, I don't think she's a Founder. Changelings don't need to cut parts of themselves off. They can separate at will. Even Odo, who was a poor at being a Changeling, could do it easily. Also, the Changeling hand thingy ordered her to commit suicide. One of the big tenets of the Founders was no Changeling ever hurt another one. They'd go to great lengths to avoid the death of another Changeling, not order them to on a suicide mission.

But that Saboteur Changeling was stupid! So was the one Worf captured in the previous episode. He could have transformed into anything during the chase. Unless he was uber-paranoid about being caught on surveillance changing forms, he was dumb. Especially considering everyone in this show talks in public locations about super-secret stuff, ...

[paigow]

2 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

Still pissed that Picard's supposed 23 year old son looks 35, bare minimum.  Would it have been THAT hard to cast someone age appropriate?  

Tom Holland is between Spider-Man movies...

[marinw]

Being a rougue medic who gets into trouble is very ageing.

[wmdekooning]

On 3/9/2023 at 6:05 PM, Cattoy said:

And a baseball hat? Did Sisko's love of the game bring it back on Bajor or something, because it was an obscure bit of history at this time frame.

I’ve been wondering when the (re)discovery of late 20th century Pop and Rock musics took place…

[Joimiaroxeu]

And just like that Picard turned out to be right about engaging the Shrike. Of course.

Resigoo. Kind of a silly tell for Changlings to me. Is that new for this show or was that always associated with them?

Every party needs a pooper, Shaw. What a pointless time to bring up Locutus.

"Bob's your uncle, Fannie's your aunt"? Never heard that version before.

The nebula was full of space jellyfish. Whoo hoo.

So J-L had already met his son and pretty much blown him off because he had no idea he existed. Gee thanks, Beverly.

I'm wondering if it's going to turn out that Jack isn't Jean-Luc's son and Beverly has lied to both of them because Jack's real father cannot be revealed. But somehow the Changlings know and Jack is eventually going to have a Luke vs. Darth Vader moment.