S01.E08: When We Are in Need

[Notwisconsin]

19 hours ago, b4pjoe said:

 Yes...deer are not endangered today. That is directly because of conservation efforts over the years.

I hope this helps....if you can get past the paywall. https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-solve-americas-wild-deer-problem-eat-them-11625842696

[tennisgurl]

Its not a zombie show without cannibals, although I was surprised to realize that most of the people don't know they're in a cannibal cult, just a regular every day kind of cult. I knew that these people were creepy right away, the guy Ellie was talking to had this very eerie calm about him, but things really escalated. Poor Ellie, things actually seemed to be going alright for awhile so now of course every bad thing possible happens to her, although she was at least able to save Joel. With a shot of some very potent penicillin, which gets Joel from near death to back to killing bad guys and going all Jack Bauer on them. 

Bella Ramsey really is an absolute force, you can see why she's shot to fame at such a young age in a short amount of time, she was just incredible, both when she was being her tough chick self and when she was understandably scared out of her mind, those screams were brutal. Ellie breaking that creeps finger was awesome!

With so much game and fish around, you would think that they wouldn't have to resort to cannibalism to survive, it seems like a decent amount of people are doing fine just living off the land, but I'm not the leader of a post apocalyptic cult so what do I know. 

I don't feel sympathy for these creeps, but I do like that they humanized the random mook that Joel killed last week. Joel was acting in self defense but that was still a person who it turns out had a family who are mourning him.

This show does a great job at making the violence happen be absolutely brutal and harsh in a way that feels really real. The makeup and effects people, as well as the actors, keep killing it. Those stabbings that Joel was doing when he interrogated the cultists looks way more real than you often see on television.  

Awwww after all that blood and horror, Joel got his baby girl back. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by tennisgurl

[b4pjoe]

25 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

I hope this helps....if you can get past the paywall. https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-solve-americas-wild-deer-problem-eat-them-11625842696

Didn’t really need any help. Conservation works both ways. Too much and you have an over population. Too little and you have a shortage. That is why they continuously adjust their efforts.

[kirkola]

My distrust of David began with his opening sermon & the little girl crying.  He seemed annoyed that she was interrupting him.  And Mom seemed to want to get her to be quiet rather than genuinely trying to comfort her.  

However, because I spent the entire episode with Joel's brother waiting for the evil to appear, I kept waiting to see.   

That said, Bella Ramsey has just been incredible.   I was expecting Pedro Pascal to be awesome, and I liked Bella Ramsey in GoT.  But just wow!

[Danny Franks]

Ah, David, you creepy, cannibal paedophile. His eyes practically lit up when he saw Ellie was a teen girl alone.

Giving his group more depth, as an apparently peaceful community worked well. David smiling as he watched that girl possibly eat some of her own dad (probably not, given the other bodies that Joel found).

Unfortunately, unknowingly eating human meat always makes me think of The League of Gentlemen.

It's a shame about poor Callus. Horses never fare well when humans start hurting each other.

Does the penicillin work too quickly? Yeah. Is it artistic licence? Yeah. Do I care? No.

Because Joel getting violent and finally showing how ruthless he can be was amazing.

"It's okay, I believe him."

Bella Ramsey was fantastic again, and I can only shake my head in disbelief at people who are unhappy they're getting a lot of screen time on their own.

She was great in that first scene with David, then even better when he's trying to 'befriend' her and she's hiding her fear, and finally when she's turning David's face into mince.

The mix of rage, terror and confusion on her face was incredible to watch.

"Tell them Ellie is little girl who broke your fucking finger!" Always one of my favourite lines from the game.

Also, Ellie killed original Joel! How could she?

[Starchild]

15 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Also, Ellie killed original Joel! How could she?

Oh man, for a split second my mind screamed "SPOILER!" lol, don't do that to my heart.

[Nashville]

Catchup time again….

On 3/6/2023 at 11:33 AM, slowpoked said:

So Ellie is technically infected, but just hasn't mutated into those zombie like creatures. How did he get the pastor infected? Was it because of the finger injury? So a wound exposure to an Infected would make someone infected?

I thought it's because she may have bit him, but I didn't see that. I only saw where she smacked his hand.

Or just a scare tactic of Ellie and pastor was never infected in the first place.

The truth is, we simply don’t know at this point:

• The best-case scenario for mankind (if not necessarily Ellie herself - more below) is if Ellie is full-fledged immune to the cordyceps infection, in which case her antibodies could be harvested for an anti-cordyceps serum vaccination. In this context Ellie’s ability to infect others would be nonexistent, as her immune system would kill any encroaching cordyceps fungi infections before she could pass it on.
• An alternative explanation to immunity, however, is Ellie might be a latent carrier - a Typhoid Mary of the cordyceps infection.  In this context Ellie isn’t truly immune to the infection, but something in her physiology inhibits cordyceps’s ability to actively colonize.  Ellie could still be carrying spores within her, though - dormant while occupying her, but capable of activating and infecting others through an exchange of body fluids such as blood or saliva.

 

On 3/6/2023 at 10:03 AM, shelley1234 said:

Speaking of Joel, he has kind of a Jack Bauer quality about him....no matter how injured he is, he finds a way to get through and there is usually a large body count in his wake.   Those two three guys thought Joel was an injured pup who would be easy to handle.  Oops.  

FTFY.  Don’t forget the first guy to stumble across Joel - and get a knife in the neck for his trouble.  😉

 

On 3/6/2023 at 11:28 AM, Dev F said:

I don't think bullets are that mechanically complicated, and the casings are reusable. People all over over the country have probably been making more for twenty years.

So far as “home” reloading of ammunition goes, the problem isn’t bullets and casings - nor gunpowder, even - but primers; lead bullets can be melted and recast, brass casings can be reused multiple times without issue, and gunpowder can be manufactured relatively simply - but previously-used primers are notoriously finicky and unreliable. 

 

22 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The monkeys didn't seem to be very concerned with humans until they got close. With a rifle they should be easy to shoot. Why these guys seemingly didn't have guns with them is still weird.

Preservation of scarce ammunition, I’d guess?  They’re 20 years into the apocalypse, and I expect stocks are dwindling - plus, not everybody is a decent shot.  At this point in time, I personally wouldn’t want anybody toting a firearm who had not already demonstrated a one shot / one kill capability.
 

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I have been wondering for a while what the Firefly CDC would do if Ellie were brought to them, particularly if they conclude that saving humanity and saving Ellie are incompatible.

^^^This^^^ is what I was referring to in my earlier comments in this post.  If Ellie turns out to be a legitimate source for an anti-cordyceps vaccine, then it doesn’t matter whether who gets their hands on her; one way or another, she’s spending the rest of her days hooked up to tubes and getting milked in labs - and at that point, the only difference between FEDRA or Firefly will be the wallpaper in the lab.

[Daisychain]

On 3/6/2023 at 4:54 AM, paramitch said:

Also, it goes without saying at this point (or it should), but Bella Ramsey was absolutely amazing this week. Her performance was so layered, so incredibly complex -- and then, that final 3 minutes? Oh, my God.

So I quoted paramitch but there were a lot of comments to this effect.  It's kind of fascinating that many of us, me included, were used to see Bella Ramsey in Game of Thrones, playing a very young, defiant, stalwart character.  And the question here, when the series started, was could she play a far more challenged, unique/iconic, complicated, ethically greyer, more experienced character?  The jury is in . . . hell yeah!  She's doing an exceptional job.  Even though Ellie has to be ruthless a lot, she wears her heart on the outside of her parka.  Really gifted job by Bella Ramsey.  

[MJ Frog]

17 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think it's an interesting opportunity miss, to have to explain how after all this time, this community somehow was able to feed themselves (we're in outbreak year what, 20 at least?), create a safe haven of sorts at this resort, but somehow couldn't figure out how to hunt animals, and store them.

 

17 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Someone upthread said it, and it's demonstrably true: basically two weeks after humans stop hanging around in an area, it's teeming with wildlife.

To be fair, they were hunting but either they were really bad at it or, for whatever reason, in this world at that place and time the game wasn't enough to support this colony.

18 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I feel like kind of a psycho, but I didn’t feel sorry for either of these guys, even a little bit.  They were there to murder Joel.  Map guy still wasn’t giving Joel answers at first, saying he didn’t know anything about a girl, and Joel’s time was running out to find Ellie alive.  So of course he needed to go more extreme.  And Joel had to kill those guys because he couldn’t risk them escaping and coming after him.

That's fair, I just saw it differently. The guy was restrained and wouldn't have been going anywhere fast with that stabbed up knee and beat down face in any case. Maybe the calculus was still correct, but for whatever reason I really felt Map Guy's desperation, and was genuinely shocked when Joel killed him. But then, it also serves as a good reminder of that grey zone we have been told Joel inhabits. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by MJ Frog

[CooperTV]

38 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

That's fair, I just saw it differently. The guy was restrained and wouldn't have been going anywhere fast with that stabbed up knee and beat down face in any case.

The Clueless Cannibals Club comes off as extremely short-sighted in this. Running around attacking random people and getting surprised you get killed for it is beyond reckless and lacking in strategic reasoning. They wanted "vengeance", and they got vengeance, but not the way they were imagining. I think Joel treated them exactly the way they wanted to treat him.

[mrspidey]

17 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Isn't that were madcow disease came from?

Yeah, they fed cows the brainmmatter of other bovines.

The human equivalent to this is called Kuru, which plagued a tribe of cannibals in New Guinea.

Basically, don't ever eat brains because that's where prions accumulate.

[BasilSeal]

On 3/6/2023 at 4:05 AM, Daisychain said:

Ok, I fully understand they don't really shoot horses on HBO sets --- but I was still so comforted to see on the after-show, the paper-mache horse going down the mechanical track and then falling.  I am such a gullible doof, but it still made me feel better.  OTOH, I had no problem with Ellie chopping the preacher into numerous pieces.  ???

There is a bit of a disconnect between the way lots of people, me included, are just fine with loads of people being killed but not animals.  I'm reminded of the bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of people with their initial attack, but not Will Smith's dog.

I fairness I think this is because people have agency where as animals don't, they can't make the same moral choices that we can. So although in the cold light of day we might  see this view of animals as irrational, i think it's also a compassionate one, and a sign of empathy.

[BasilSeal]

On 3/6/2023 at 10:54 AM, paramitch said:

Craig and Neil said on their podcast from way, way earlier in the season that love in this world is actually at the root of the hatred and violence in it, i.e., protecting your “tribe” first at the expense of others.

Absolutely this. The morality of survival is one of the key themes of TLoU and the show runners and writers have absolutely nailed it in a way that other shows haven't really come close to, (i'm looking at you, TWD)

The raiding party attack Joel and Ellie at the university and nearly kills Joel, we see  our people, Joe and Ellie, as the victims, the good guys, but David's group see them as murderers who need to be punished.

Another key theme here is that seeking vengeance never works out well.

I like the way they slowly ratchet up the moral depravity of David and his group, we know from the outset that they're cannibals, but they just did it to the guy who was already dead out of absolute desperation, right?

Oh actually no, they're  murdering and butchering people and David's probably a kiddy fiddler as well...

I actually thought David's interest in Ellie was as much to do with him seeing her leadership potential and wanting her to share the burden of leadership with him. He sees his 'flock' as idiots who he needs to manipulate via religion, they aren't his equals, he wants someone he can view as an equal to share responsibility for the terrible things he's doing.

That and being a massive nonce, obviously.

 

[paramitch]

46 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

Absolutely this. The morality of survival is one of the key themes of TLoU and the show runners and writers have absolutely nailed it in a way that other shows haven't really come close to, (i'm looking at you, TWD)

The raiding party attack Joel and Ellie at the university and nearly kills Joel, we see  our people, Joe and Ellie, as the victims, the good guys, but David's group see them as murderers who need to be punished.

(snipped for focus)

That and being a massive nonce, obviously.

 

I think this is a great point for discussion -- the "morality of survival" as well as the lies people are willing to tell themselves to support their own potential for depravity.

I agree that there are always two sides, especially on this show, and that Mazin and Druckmann are definitely trying to show us that on a consistent basis. I keep thinking of the ambushers in Kansas City, who openly tried to brutally murder Joel and Ellie, but who screamed in shocked outrage when Joel shot their buddies in self-defense.

Where "the morality of survival" gets interesting for me is that I see a fair number of people out there who take your point one step farther, saying that both sides are equally innocent and guilty -- that there is real moral relativism as far as rooting for Joel and Ellie because they are just as bad as everyone else.

Which I really disagree with. Joel and Ellie have had to wrestle with their consciences, especially Joel during the worst years of his time in the QZ, as referenced in his talks with Tess, Ellie, and especially Tommy.

But we've also consistently seen Joel and Ellie be kind to strangers, attempt to avoid violent confrontation or outcomes, and share their food, journeys, and protection. In every instance so far in which Joel has killed someone on the show, he did so from necessity (and in many cases with visible sorrow -- he even tried not to kill Kathleen's sniper, but the guy drew on him anyway). Take the guy you mention:

Quote

 ... the raiding party attack Joel and Ellie at the university and nearly kills Joel, we see  our people, Joe and Ellie, as the victims, the good guys, but David's group see them as murderers who need to be punished.

 David's group (like the KC group) is lying to themselves about their own morality. Alec, the hunter, saw Joel and Ellie -- a man and little girl who were attempting to run away -- and instantly attacked and attempted to kill Joel (presumably to provide more mystery meat for their dining hall). There was zero ambiguity in what he was attempting and Joel had every right to defend himself.

Beyond the self-righteousness of the Silver Lake sheeple deciding Joel (AND Ellie) should die for this, what's fascinating is how David manipulates and uses this. The regular townspeople don't know soylent green is people. They probably got a story about how poor Eric was "scavenging for supplies," not that he was actively seeking to loot and murder (and then devour) innocent humans.

My impression is that David spun a sadder story so that everyone was on his side, while his small group of henchmen certainly seemed to know the  real truth. His second-in-command (played so well by the Original Joel, Troy Baker) visibly shows growing doubt about David, but he's still absolutely fine with killing a 14 year-old girl who is simply desperate to save her guardian. A 14 year-old girl who could have -- if she was truly like him, and like David, and their people -- killed him the moment they met.

And even on Joel's part, while he was brutal and genuinely terrifying here, and yes, it was hard to watch, he was trying to rescue his child, and these men were her kidnappers, openly lying about her location, and on a specific mission to kill him and deliver him to be devoured by their people. I really don't see what else he could have done with this group that has actively shown they cannot be trusted and are capable of huge cruelty.

Ellie meanwhile kills the two men who attacked her, killed her horse, took her prisoner, repeatedly assaulted her, attempted to murder her, and eventually, even to rape her.

While David was leading his people under the veneer of religion, killing and harvesting human beings for meat, striking and raping young girls (he is open about having done it before), Ellie and Joel have never thus far been the aggressors. They have always acted only in self-defense. Do they sleep well at night? Probably not. Every act of violence seems to be taking Ellie to a darker, more wounded place. But they are still worlds away from the evil of the people we saw here. 

(Also, I love the phrase "massive nonce" and am going to start using it as soon as possible when I encounter a frustrating doofus.)

[Daisychain]

3 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

There is a bit of a disconnect between the way lots of people, me included, are just fine with loads of people being killed but not animals.  I'm reminded of the bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of people with their initial attack, but not Will Smith's dog.

I fairness I think this is because people have agency where as animals don't, they can't make the same moral choices that we can. So although in the cold light of day we might  see this view of animals as irrational, i think it's also a compassionate one, and a sign of empathy.

Thanks BasilSeal.  I am the person who started the whole kerfuffle because I said I felt bad for the horse.  I guess my perspective is, in this show, we know where we are starting from - it's the literal near-extinction of the human race from the planet Earth.  Almost everyone on Earth is already dead, and have been for many years. 

All we can see are these small scenes, and small relationships, not millions' worth.  Even the obliteration of Kansas City boils down to the relationships of 6 or 8 people? So I would say it's ok to be sad when the horse dies . . . galloping right into the target zone because Ellie is trying to save Joel, her new and only father, who is also almost dead.  You could see it was going to happen and then it did.  Horses are generally (not always) cooperative and smart, which makes you appreciate them.

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Where "the morality of survival" gets interesting for me is that I see a fair number of people out there who take your point one step farther, saying that both sides are equally innocent and guilty -- that there is real moral relativism as far as rooting for Joel and Ellie because they are just as bad as everyone else.

I agree, i wasn't trying to argue that there is a moral equivalence between Joel and Ellie, and David's sheeple group, rather that there are degrees of immoral actions and that people who do bad things in this world aren't necessarily motivated by evil intent but by necessity of circumstance.

I think you could argue that David is an evil man, the violence and malicious intent were in him al long, the apocalypse just allowed him to exercise free reign with it. the others follow his lead, they still have agency, they make a choice and this choice i morally wrong but this is because the other choices are equally unpalatable.

I think it's correct to say they are lying to themselves WRT this, which is what i meant by my assertion that everyone thinks they're the good guys. (going back to TWD, the repetition of the phrase 'good people' is symbolic of this).

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

David's group (like the KC group) is lying to themselves about their own morality. Alec, the hunter, saw Joel and Ellie -- a man and little girl who were attempting to run away -- and instantly attacked and attempted to kill Joel (presumably to provide more mystery meat for their dining hall). There was zero ambiguity in what he was attempting and Joel had every right to defend himself.

Oh yes, i agree, David's people don't see it like that but as you say, they're deceiving themselves. everything we see Joel and Ellie do in the show is justifiable, torturing and killing  the hunting party is questionable, you're right that they were intending to kill him, so he's every right to defend himself, they're almost certainly murderers, and are followers of a psychopathic paedophile. He needs to know where Ellie is, and once he's found out it makes sense to kill them as  there's a good chance if he lets them live they'll come after him, it's certainly excusable, and there's logic and expedience to it, but whether it's morally right is another matter. I think on balance it probably isn't, but in this world Joel doesn't have that luxury, he literally does what he has to do, even though in doing so he is morally compromised, which is what i mean about the complex morality of surviving.

It's also implied that Joel has killed innocent people, after the ambush in KC he admits he knew the guy was trying to trick them because he'd done the same, he refuses to answer when Ellie asks him if he's killed innocents. Ultimately he's just had to do what he needed to do in order to survive. What sets Joel and Ellie aside from the likes of David's people is that they haven't lost themselves, they are still trying to make the right moral choices even if sometimes this isn't possible.

one wouldn't necessarily need to have killed people to be morally compromised, anyone who has survive a global catastrophe that has killed billions has done so by  hiding away somewhere safe, either with just  themselves, like Bill, or a small group, and saying these are the people that matter, everyone else can get lost. you survive at the expense of others. I remember reading an article about preppers in which they asked one guy what he was most afraid of if the apocalypse were to happen, he said the woman with a child  standing at the gate asking to be let in.

but anyway, i think TLoU deals with this theme as well as any show i've seen. We see how the  sheeple have fallen to this level of depravity, it's believable, 

David has complex and believable motivation for his actions, they don't lazily exploit the trop of the inherently bad person enabled by events to create a cartoon villain who just does evil stuff for no other reason than they're the bad guy and it's what they do, like say Negan, or the Governor. They were just cartoon bad guys who killed people for shits and giggles, for some reason, because it's what they do. David is all to believable and  far more terrifying as a result of this.

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

(Also, I love the phrase "massive nonce" and am going to start using it as soon as possible when I encounter a frustrating doofus.)

It's a British slang term for sex offender that is thought to have come from a prison acronym for prisoners who were kept separate because they were sex offenders, to stop other prisoners from attacking them. it stands for Not On Normal Courtyard Exercise. Prisoners who needed to be kept separate for their own safety has the  letters NONCE chalked on their cell door.

who says the internet isn't educational ;)

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by BasilSeal

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

a cartoon villain who just does evil stuff for no other reason than they're the bad guy and it's what they do, like say Negan, or the Governor.

The Governor preserved heads as trophies... David used them for soup... A green / sustainable villain 

[Capricasix]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

Also, I love the phrase "massive nonce" and am going to start using it as soon as possible when I encounter a frustrating doofus.

I’m partial to “pillock” and “bellend” myself, but I gather the latter is not altogether polite 😄

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

I agree, i wasn't trying to argue that there is a moral equivalence between Joel and Ellie, and David's sheeple group, rather that there are degrees of immoral actions and that people who do bad things in this world aren't necessarily motivated by evil intent but by necessity of circumstance.

I think you could argue that David is an evil man, the violence and malicious intent were in him al long, the apocalypse just allowed him to exercise free reign with it. the others follow his lead, they still have agency, they make a choice and this choice i morally wrong but this is because the other choices are equally unpalatable.

I think it's correct to say they are lying to themselves WRT this, which is what i meant by my assertion that everyone thinks they're the good guys. (going back to TWD, the repetition of the phrase 'good people' is symbolic of this).

Oh yes, i agree, David's people don't see it like that but as you say, they're deceiving themselves. everything we see Joel and Ellie do in the show is justifiable, torturing and killing  the hunting party is questionable, you're right that they were intending to kill him, so he's every right to defend himself, they're almost certainly murderers, and are followers of a psychopathic paedophile. He needs to know where Ellie is, and once he's found out it makes sense to kill them as  there's a good chance if he lets them live they'll come after him, it's certainly excusable, and there's logic and expedience to it, but whether it's morally right is another matter. I think on balance it probably isn't, but in this world Joel doesn't have that luxury, he literally does what he has to do, even though in doing so he is morally compromised, which is what i mean about the complex morality of surviving.

It's also implied that Joel has killed innocent people, after the ambush in KC he admits he knew the guy was trying to trick them because he'd done the same, he refuses to answer when Ellie asks him if he's killed innocents. Ultimately he's just had to do what he needed to do in order to survive. What sets Joel and Ellie aside from the likes of David's people is that they haven't lost themselves, they are still trying to make the right moral choices even if sometimes this isn't possible.

one wouldn't necessarily need to have killed people to be morally compromised, anyone who has survive a global catastrophe that has killed billions has done so by  hiding away somewhere safe, either with just  themselves, like Bill, or a small group, and saying these are the people that matter, everyone else can get lost. you survive at the expense of others. I remember reading an article about preppers in which they asked one guy what he was most afraid of if the apocalypse were to happen, he said the woman with a child  standing at the gate asking to be let in.

but anyway, i think TLoU deals with this theme as well as any show i've seen. We see how the  sheeple have fallen to this level of depravity, it's believable, 

David has complex and believable motivation for his actions, they don't lazily exploit the trop of the inherently bad person enabled by events to create a cartoon villain who just does evil stuff for no other reason than they're the bad guy and it's what they do, like say Negan, or the Governor. They were just cartoon bad guys who killed people for shits and giggles, for some reason, because it's what they do. David is all to believable and  far more terrifying as a result of this.

It's a British slang term for sex offender that is thought to have come from a prison acronym for prisoners who were kept separate because they were sex offenders, to stop other prisoners from attacking them. it stands for Not On Normal Courtyard Exercise. Prisoners who needed to be kept separate for their own safety has the  letters NONCE chalked on their cell door.

who says the internet isn't educational ;)

 

I would argue that in this specific instance, the normal rules of evaluating moral choices, like "if I do this thing just to survive, what does that make me?" can be suspended for Joel and Ellie.

They are in the unique position of potentially saving the human race from extinction, so they may make repugnant but perfectly understandable choices based on achieving that goal. In fact we might even urge them to do those things if it will save us all.

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

like the way they slowly ratchet up the moral depravity of David and his group, we know from the outset that they're cannibals, but they just did it to the guy who was already dead out of absolute desperation, right

There were three bodies hanging in the cooler or wherever that was. Did they ever suggest where the other two people came from? Were they dead members of the community, other outsiders they killed or scientists from the university lab?

[Nashville]

6 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I’m partial to “pillock” and “bellend” myself, but I gather the latter is not altogether polite 😄

Give them a few hours after they hit genpop, though, and it’s probably technically accurate….

 

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There were three bodies hanging in the cooler or wherever that was. Did they ever suggest where the other two people came from? Were they dead members of the community, other outsiders they killed or scientists from the university lab?

Just folks who wandered in for a snack, no doubt.

 

[meep.meep]

12 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

There is a bit of a disconnect between the way lots of people, me included, are just fine with loads of people being killed but not animals.  I'm reminded of the bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of people with their initial attack, but not Will Smith's dog.

I fairness I think this is because people have agency where as animals don't, they can't make the same moral choices that we can. So although in the cold light of day we might  see this view of animals as irrational, i think it's also a compassionate one, and a sign of empathy.

If you guys want to mourn the horse more than the people go ahead.  But I'm going to point out that no one seems to be mourning the dead deer.  You seem to pick certain animals (dogs, cats, and horses) to mourn and not worry so much about others (deer, cows, squirrels, hares, etc.).

As to why David's group was having trouble hunting - animal populations go through big swings and it may be that this is a winter when the mammal population is way down.  You can watch a season of Alone as a demonstration of how hard it is to fish during the winter without the modern conveniences needed for ice fishing.

[Anela]

I said, "poor deer" when it was shot. I don't understand the judging. 

[maystone]

5 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If you guys want to mourn the horse more than the people go ahead.  But I'm going to point out that no one seems to be mourning the dead deer.  You seem to pick certain animals (dogs, cats, and horses) to mourn and not worry so much about others (deer, cows, squirrels, hares, etc.).

 

Hey, I felt bad for the two white rabbits that Greene's character was carrying a few episodes ago. I don't like to see any animal mistreated or killed for my entertainment. That also extends to women and children who are so frequently victims in scripted TV.

Ellie is no victim.

[CooperTV]

6 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If you guys want to mourn the horse more than the people go ahead.  But I'm going to point out that no one seems to be mourning the dead deer.  You seem to pick certain animals (dogs, cats, and horses) to mourn and not worry so much about others (deer, cows, squirrels, hares, etc.).

I'm sure that deer had a lovely personality and possibly had a PhD in quantum physics. Jokes aside, I care for horses and cats more because they're useful to people in many other ways apart from being food source.

I also care about people who fell prey to cannibals more than about the actual cannibals, but such is life.

[Starchild]

16 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If you guys want to mourn the horse more than the people go ahead.  But I'm going to point out that no one seems to be mourning the dead deer.  You seem to pick certain animals (dogs, cats, and horses) to mourn and not worry so much about others (deer, cows, squirrels, hares, etc.).

As to why David's group was having trouble hunting - animal populations go through big swings and it may be that this is a winter when the mammal population is way down.  You can watch a season of Alone as a demonstration of how hard it is to fish during the winter without the modern conveniences needed for ice fishing.

It's an interesting point, and when I think about it, it seems to me that there is more sympathy for domesticated animals in general, because they have a relationship with humans. They trust, and the trust is betrayed.

That's not so much the case for wild animals. There is still sympathy related to the "innocence" factor, but betrayal is not layered in.

[BasilSeal]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There were three bodies hanging in the cooler or wherever that was. Did they ever suggest where the other two people came from? Were they dead members of the community, other outsiders they killed or scientists from the university lab?

It seems likely they were random strangers they'd murdered, as they were presumably intending to murder Joel when they attacked him at the university. My point was we don't find this out straight away, at first it looks like they're just going to eat the guy who was already dead, and gross   though that may be it's significantly less gross than  seeking out people to murder  with eating them in mind. The ultimate reveal here is not that they're cannibals, we  see this is likely from the outset, but rather that they are predatory cannibals who seek out victims.

23 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If you guys want to mourn the horse more than the people go ahead.  But I'm going to point out that no one seems to be mourning the dead deer.  You seem to pick certain animals (dogs, cats, and horses) to mourn and not worry so much about others (deer, cows, squirrels, hares, etc.).

As to why David's group was having trouble hunting - animal populations go through big swings and it may be that this is a winter when the mammal population is way down.  You can watch a season of Alone as a demonstration of how hard it is to fish during the winter without the modern conveniences needed for ice fishing.

You  seem to have ignored what i actually wrote and have gone off on a straw man argument instead but hey ho. As i said, while it is not entirely  logical to feel more affected by the death of a fictional animal than a fictional person, the key word here is  fictional, this isn't real, so who cares if some people want to root for the animals over the humans, especially when the majority of the humans are so fecking awful.

[chediavolo]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:36 PM, Demian said:

You and me both.  In the world of this series, billions of people have been turned into mushroom farms, but the minute a horse gets shot to death, everyone's all, "OMG! The poor horsie! I HATE HBO!"

Because animals are pure creatures & humans can be very evil . Humans are killing the earth due to greed and not giving a shit. I’ll take a cat or a dog over most of the people I come into contact with  any day. I wouldn’t hate it if the world blew up tomorrow. Living thru an apocalypse though, no thanks. Life is hell as it is.  

[Uncle JUICE]

3 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Because animals are pure creatures & humans can be very evil . Humans are killing the earth due to greed and not giving a shit. I’ll take a cat or a dog over most of the people I come into contact with  any day. I wouldn’t hate it if the world blew up tomorrow. Living thru an apocalypse though, no thanks. Life is hell as it is.  

[paigow]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:24 PM, Nashville said:

Just folks who wandered in for a snack, no doubt.

And Hannibal is meeting an old friend for dinner...

[Daisychain]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:00 PM, Demian said:

What I wonder is, if this fungus-thing has evolved to infect humans, why are there any other mammals around?  Shouldn't this fungus-thing also be taking out the rabbits, and the deer, and the cows, and the horses?

It's why I always end up hating zombie stories -- the zombie-causing agent should affect far more species, and it never, ever does.

I've been minorly obsessed with wondering about this - according to the media, in current non-fictional worlds, humans generally don't get fungal infections because our temps are too high.  Then, the smaller the animal is compared to the colder ambient temp might reduce their core temperature (inviting infection).  My obsession is because I moved into the city for about 18 months, and my 17 pound dog, with no real exposure to cold and an average body temp well above a human's, got a full-body fungal infection.  It's very confuzzling and maybe there are biologists on this thread who understand these things.  

My dog though survived and is a happy, healthy, and sweet girl 24-7.  I on the other hand am a fugitive from justice as I bought her anti-fungal drugs on the black market.  

[arjumand]

On 3/6/2023 at 4:56 PM, izabella said:

Maybe I don't understand this world, but they were right there by a bunch of water.  Are there no fish for them to catch and eat?

And why aren't there thousands of animals roaming around?  I would have thought they'd take over after humans became nearly nonexistent.

This, so much.

I just watched this last night and then I was annoyed at myself because I couldn't sleep thinking of all the ways they could have avoided cannibalism.

And to be honest, the writing is starting to show cracks here - it's the usual dichotomy between the need for a 20 year time jump and what is portrayed onscreen not showing that.

I mean, evil preacher guy was saying they were surprised by the harsh winter? WHAT. Like it was their first year there or something? I know the story was that they weren't there for the full two decades, but still. Come on. People have survived in harsh climates for millennia.

"Nothing grows here . . ." Except the wholeass forest in which Ellie bagged a deer on her first try?

And why were there only a few guys with guns - why not the entire population with slings and rocks and bats, actually hunting, rather than going for a stroll with guns?

The reason why people in the past lived through harsh winters was that they spent spring summer and autumn working their asses off and building up stores, not sitting around waiting for the Lord to provide.

Also, while I was sad about the horse dying, I kinda felt his days were numbered, because Ellie was feeding him snow? Besides that, I wasn't disturbed that they were going to eat the horse, I was more disturbed that they just dragged it in and left it, clearly preferring the hanging corpses they had there. So, they'll just let the meat rot. Ok.

The final scene, with the preacher not caring that he's in a burning building, doing the usual stereotypical cartoony serial killer schtick - well. That was pointless. It would have been more poetic if he really turned after she bit him, like the cordyceps is dormant in her but strong enough to infect others.

It would have been a great "where is your cordyceps god now?" moment, but no, we had to have another cliche.

To date, I haven't seen a moment as great as the opening scenes to episodes 1 and 2, and I doubt that I'm going to anymore.

Now I'm off to research if they could have grown potatoes - hey, my man Matt Damon grew potatoes on Mars!

[BasilSeal]

51 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Now I'm off to research if they could have grown potatoes

in order to grow potatoes you need seed potatoes. any potatoes from the previous years crop would do but you need to have grown them last year, or know someone who has, in order to grow them this year.

Growing veg would absolutely be an option, some things like winter squash and root vegetables store  over winter and some veg is harvested in the winter anyway, the barrier to doing this 20 years after the apocalypse is finding viable seed. Two to five years is the ballpark figure for seeds to remain viable depending on plant species and conditions, but after 20 years even if you found a stash of  old seed packets, they almost certainly wouldn't grow. 

for someone in bill's situation you could get seed  in the initial aftermath of the fall and  start growing them straight away, you'd need  some careful planning to save seed for future use every year, this is doable but the reason most gardeners don't save their own seed is partly because bought seed is so much easier but also because saved seed may not have the same characteristics as the hybrid parent plant, so what you're growing five years down the line may be very different, and not as good, as what you started with.

There's also a lot of skill and specialist knowledge needed to grow vegetables successfully, if your life depended on it then you'd probably learn, and there are books that will tell you what to do, though they would likely have been easier to find in 2003 than now.

It's possible that if David's group had been in one of the QZs, and living a transient existence for a while before settling at the resort, that they simply didn't have either the skills or the materials needed to grow vegetables. 

[FrankOFoley]

31 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

in order to grow potatoes you need seed potatoes. any potatoes from the previous years crop would do but you need to have grown them last year, or know someone who has, in order to grow them this year.

Growing veg would absolutely be an option, some things like winter squash and root vegetables store  over winter and some veg is harvested in the winter anyway, the barrier to doing this 20 years after the apocalypse is finding viable seed. Two to five years is the ballpark figure for seeds to remain viable depending on plant species and conditions, but after 20 years even if you found a stash of  old seed packets, they almost certainly wouldn't grow. 

for someone in bill's situation you could get seed  in the initial aftermath of the fall and  start growing them straight away, you'd need  some careful planning to save seed for future use every year, this is doable but the reason most gardeners don't save their own seed is partly because bought seed is so much easier but also because saved seed may not have the same characteristics as the hybrid parent plant, so what you're growing five years down the line may be very different, and not as good, as what you started with.

There's also a lot of skill and specialist knowledge needed to grow vegetables successfully, if your life depended on it then you'd probably learn, and there are books that will tell you what to do, though they would likely have been easier to find in 2003 than now.

It's possible that if David's group had been in one of the QZs, and living a transient existence for a while before settling at the resort, that they simply didn't have either the skills or the materials needed to grow vegetables. 

Thank you for your cogent and informed response from a fellow gardener.

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

It's possible that if David's group had been in one of the QZs, and living a transient existence for a while before settling at the resort

His exposition backstory was that his original group escaped Pittsburgh, tried to settle down, got pushed out by raiders, lost members, picked up new survivors on the way... until reaching Colorado 

[dshgr]

Old person rant ahead!

There are so many things that today's young people don't know how to do.  Cooking, saving seeds, tending a garden, simple home repairs, driving a stick shift vehicle, mending and sewing clothes, loading and firing a weapon, etc.  After the apocalypse is not the time to learn these skills.

Rant off.

 

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, dshgr said:

Old person rant ahead!

There are so many things that today's young people don't know how to do.  Cooking, saving seeds, tending a garden, simple home repairs, driving a stick shift vehicle, mending and sewing clothes, loading and firing a weapon, etc.  After the apocalypse is not the time to learn these skills.

Rant off.

 

Would disagree about loading and firing weapons... but otherwise agree

[mledawn]

Preppers would know how to do this stuff - Bill is absolutely not the only prepper in the country let alone his county, but at the end of the day it’s a tv show based on a gaaaame so I try not to think too hard on this stuff. 

In real life, my local library started a seed exchange/library coincidentally just before the pandemic hit. Teaching the old ways to the young folks, @dshgr!

[BasilSeal]

3 hours ago, dshgr said:

There are so many things that today's young people don't know how to do.  Cooking, saving seeds, tending a garden, simple home repairs, driving a stick shift vehicle, mending and sewing clothes, loading and firing a weapon, etc.  After the apocalypse is not the time to learn these skills.

I sort of agree, but the maker movement is having some impact in getting some people back into actually making artefacts by traditional means, all skills that would be needed after a societal collapse, however, much of this knowledge is online. I've been teaching myself to use machine tools for a while now by watching YouTube videos, I've learned a lot of mechanical and metal working skill just be watching other people do them, without the internet it would be impossible to access this information, you might get some of it from books but books are becoming  less prevalent, you'd have more chance of finding  relevant books to teach you essential skills  after a 2003 apocalypse than you would now.

As an aside, i wonder if backdating the apocalypse like this will become  a thing for  modern post apocalyptic dramas? going back to a time of simpler technology kind of simplifies things and limits the protagonist's access to useful modern gadgets, like how useful would a cheap drone be for checking out what lies over the next hill?

[Anela]

12 hours ago, Daisychain said:

 

edited.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Anela

[izabella]

6 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

for someone in bill's situation you could get seed  in the initial aftermath of the fall and  start growing them straight away, you'd need  some careful planning to save seed for future use every year, this is doable but the reason most gardeners don't save their own seed is partly because bought seed is so much easier but also because saved seed may not have the same characteristics as the hybrid parent plant, so what you're growing five years down the line may be very different, and not as good, as what you started with.

Would it be possible for the gardens of the world, especially the commercial ones, to have reseeded themselves during this time?   Could a tomato bed that was abandoned after the fungus, with its fruit dropping to the ground and seeds getting buried, survive? Could some of those seeds survive and grow the next year?  Could a potato field keep itself going for a while?  If so, people should be heading to farmland to see what may be left. 

I'm also thinking there should be wild strawberries, blueberries, fruit trees...

Edited March 11, 2023 by izabella

[Dev F]

9 hours ago, arjumand said:

The reason why people in the past lived through harsh winters was that they spent spring summer and autumn working their asses off and building up stores, not sitting around waiting for the Lord to provide.

That's one of the points of the episode though, right? It's actually titled "When We Are in Need ," after the banner in the group's meeting hall that ends "He Shall Provide." They were relying on blind faith—in God, in David—when they should've been working their asses off to provide for themselves and each other, like Ellie and Joel.

In fact, the showrunners talk in the podcast about how they deliberately set up a contrast between Silver Lake and Jackson. In Silver Lake, David's people showed up in the warmer months, assumed they'd found a paradise, and didn't do the necessary work to make it livable in the winter. In Jackson, on the other hand, Maria's people all worked together to establish community gardens, restore power and water, and defend their borders, and their settlement has prospered for years. Part of the difference is just bad luck, but part of it is the advantage of being committed to democracy and communal responsibility instead of a single strong leader and blind faith.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Dev F

[Capricasix]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Would it be possible for the gardens of the world, especially the commercial ones, to have reseeded themselves during this time?   Could a tomato bed that was abandoned after the fungus, with its fruit dropping to the ground and seeds getting buried, survive? Could some of those seeds survive and grow the next year?  Could a potato field keep itself going for a while?  If so, people should be heading to farmland to see what may be left. 

I'm also thinking there should be wild strawberries, blueberries, fruit trees...

This makes me think of the seed archive somewhere in Scandinavia - I think it’s managed by the Norwegian government. 
 

(I wish I knew how to do quote tags)

The Svalbard Global Seed Vault(Norwegian: Svalbard globale frøhvelv) is a secure backup facility for the world's crop diversity on the Norwegian island of Spitsbergenin the remote Arctic Svalbard archipelago. The Seed Vault provides long-term storage of duplicates of seeds conserved in genebanksaround the world. This provides security of the world's food supply against the loss of seeds in genebanks due to mismanagement, accident, equipment failures, funding cuts, war, sabotage, disease and natural disasters. The Seed Vault is managed under terms spelled out in a tripartite agreement among the Norwegian government, the Crop Trust, and the Nordic Genetic Resource Center (NordGen).

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Would it be possible for the gardens of the world, especially the commercial ones, to have reseeded themselves during this time?   Could a tomato bed that was abandoned after the fungus, with its fruit dropping to the ground and seeds getting buried, survive? Could some of those seeds survive and grow the next year?  Could a potato field keep itself going for a while?  If so, people should be heading to farmland to see what may be left. 

I'm also thinking there should be wild strawberries, blueberries, fruit trees...

probably not, most plants even if they did have the correct conditions to self set would be out competed by weeds. fruit tress and bushes would be a better bet, they'd continue to grow and fruit even if not  managed.

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, Capricasix said:

This makes me think of the seed archive somewhere in Scandinavia - I think it’s managed by the Norwegian government. 

Well, a seed vault in Scandanavia wouldn't be very useful for anyone on the other side of the Atlantic after a global apocalypse.  Conveniently enough, there's an American one at Colorado State University, which Joel and Ellie would have ridden by on their way to Eastern Colorado University (which, I believe, is supposed to be in Boulder in-universe but is modeled on CSU).

[gaPeach]

As others have stated about the lack of food when the human race has been reduced to a single digit number is crazy.  Unless the infected attack and eat all animals.  Then I could see there being a scarce amount of game to hunt.  But, if they are in remote area I would think that logic would not apply.

And why do people give up all freedoms and any individual thought process, to follow a sadistic leader?  I know we do not have the whole story since the series keeps new people/gangs to one maybe two episodes.  They could have done a whole season on this crazy group alone.  

That goes for the people that live in the cities.  They don't mind living in filth, food rations, and apparently getting shot or killed on the streets is normal business.  If I had one trip outside the walls of a city I would never go back.  The infected apparently are not that big of an issue in this series as our Dynamic Duo traveled across country with little interaction with infected.  And rouge gangs seem minimal too.  I would rather take my chances on my own then live under a dictatorship where your neighbor may take you out for a piece of Government cheese or the current militant in charge can drag you from your hovel and kill you.

Another beef I had. Why are people living in dilapidated homes?  They did not start out that way.  I get it took time to get things going again but why not keep up the buildings?  And, I don't know, stop littering in the streets.  What do these people do all day?  They don't have jobs like we do now so why live in filth?  

[Nashville]

On 3/30/2023 at 12:09 PM, gaPeach said:

why do people give up all freedoms and any individual thought process, to follow a sadistic leader?

History is replete with some pretty amazing examples of the extents some people will go to in order to keep regular hot meals coming.

 

On 3/30/2023 at 12:09 PM, gaPeach said:

That goes for the people that live in the cities.  They don't mind living in filth, food rations, and apparently getting shot or killed on the streets is normal business.  

The larger the population, the stronger the inertia of the status quo.

 

On 3/30/2023 at 12:09 PM, gaPeach said:

If I had one trip outside the walls of a city I would never go back. 

Successful living in either city or country each involve very specific - and differing - skill sets.

 

On 3/30/2023 at 12:09 PM, gaPeach said:

Another beef I had. Why are people living in dilapidated homes?  They did not start out that way.  I get it took time to get things going again but why not keep up the buildings?  And, I don't know, stop littering in the streets.  What do these people do all day?  They don't have jobs like we do now so why live in filth?  

Considering sufficient manufacturing infrastructure doesn’t exist to keep elemental items like automobile batteries in supply, I sincerely doubt the local Home Depot is has much depth in their stock.  Where are people supposed to go to find the the basics like lumber / bricks / siding / plumbing supplies / etc. they need to un-dilapidate things, or the know-how to deploy them?

[paigow]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:38 PM, Nashville said:

I sincerely doubt the local Home Depot is has much depth in their stock. 

Bill cleaned one out just for his own needs... 

[TaurusRose]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:30 PM, Racj82 said:

I will never really understand the visceral reactions people have to animals dying to the point where one will be fine with dozens of humans being mudereded over one dog but I assure you that you are not alone.

Probably because we are their caretakers and responsible for their safety. Domestic animals bond with us and trust us. They will often go against instinct to please their human. They do not ask to be put in dangerous situations so yeah, I’m all about caring about what happens to a dog or cat or horse or whatever. Humans have the capacity to make choices and do better. I never heard of Luck and was unaware that horses had died. I am sorry that happened and I’m glad the show was shutdown. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by TaurusRose

[TaurusRose]

On 3/6/2023 at 10:58 PM, Demian said:

  I still will, however, assert that people mean more than dogs. 

By that reasoning people mean more than anything on the planet and when the natural world is destroyed we’ll have sewn the seeds of our end.