S01.E04: Episode 4

[weightyghost]

 

I liked how when he was walking up one of the girls said "he's old."

Especially since he's 32. Robert is 31. Michelle is 33, isn't she? It's not like these people are 22. They're all in their late 20s. 

[jumper sage]

They really laid on the PR and yet this episode was actually very boring.  It's just like middle school.

[leighdear]

In Sean's season, they went into AshLee's background a bit.  Moved from foster home to foster home til she was about 5, then got adopted by a minister's family.  Obviously she learned at an early age that she HAD to be "the kind of little girl they don't send back".  Maybe she never learned to be herself, as she was so afraid of being rejected for it.  So she's always hyper-conscious of being "on". 

 

That being said, and my armchair analysis finished, she's way too old to get away with that crap.   She can't blame her childhood for behavior that as an adult she knows is manipulative, hostile and selfish.  So she either KNOWS she that way and refuses to change, or she's just bat-shit crazy.  I'm kinda 80/40 on that.

[backformore]

If only Clare could assert herself with men the way she does with women, I'm sure the marriage proposals would be pouring in. After Zach's "depends on the girl" comment, she should have dropped him like a hot potato (with a side of scrambled eggs).

 

But why?  Clare was upset that he wasn't "all in" for their relationship, only because another guy wanted her.  I thought she was being somewhat hypocritical, actually.   She has one guy, and an alternate "on deck"  in case things don't go well with the first guy.   Why should Zach commit to her "basket"  when she wasn't committed enough to say to Cody "I can't start something with you, I'm already involved".   She wanted ZACH to be the one to tell her not to go with Cody, and Zach was saying she can make that decision herself.  

Maybe I'm not explaining it well - but Clare make her decision about Cody based on HER feelings about Zach, not Zach's feelings about her.   Zach was being realistic - in the beginning stages of a relationship, if she was considering dating another guy, then SHE was the one who was not "All in".  

Clare was trying to have it both ways - I want to know how you feel about me so I can decide how I feel about you.  SHE was being wishy-washy, and accusing Zach of being wishy-washy.  

[seacliffsal]

Backformore, I really appreciate your insights as to Clair's actions.  She really was being passive-aggressively trying to get a firm commitment from Zack.  Whereas he was trying to let her make her own decisions.

 

What's so interesting about this series is how serious the 'relationships' are after just a day or two.  Or, in Ashlee's case, before she even meets Graham for the first time....

[chocolatine]

I'm not saying Zach should commit to anything, but "depending on the girl" was a douche thing to say. He could have said no to exclusivity without being a douche.

[OldWiseOne]

I agree backformore, Clare wanted Cody as a back up just in case Zach wasn't all in. Then she gave Zach a little relationship "test" when she asked if he wanted her to go out with other men. If she wanted to date Cody she should have just said yes to him without the ridiculous having to ask Zach, and if she wanted to be exclusive with Zach she should have just said no to Cody immediately. I think her plan was to go out with Cody to make Zach jealous if he didn't pass her "test" (which he eventually did). I felt like Zach didn't want Clare to go out with Cody but didn't want to tell her what to do (maybe assuming she would want to make her own decision).

 

Also, that was a douche thing for Zach to say that it depended on the girl. Then I wondered what former contestant he might be thinking of! I wonder if the producers asked these people who they would most like to meet so they could try to stir things up.

 

I think Asslee is jealous of Clare and that's why she tried to sabotage the Clare/Zach relationship. She is likely used to being the "hot chick" in any crowd, the one that the men are clamouring to date. Now even though she has no interest in dating other men as all her eggs are in Graham's basket, I'll bet she is jealous that none of the new men are showing any interest in her, whereas Clare had been asked out and been on many dates before pairing up with Zach. Then Cody shows up and asks Clare out even though Clare is obviously paired off!

[MsPH]

I think Asslee is jealous of Clare and that's why she tried to sabotage the Clare/Zach relationship. She is likely used to being the "hot chick" in any crowd, the one that the men are clamouring to date. Now even though she has no interest in dating other men as all her eggs are in Graham's basket, I'll bet she is jealous that none of the new men are showing any interest in her, whereas Clare had been asked out and been on many dates before pairing up with Zach. Then Cody shows up and asks Clare out even though Clare is obviously paired off!

 

That's a good point. No one's shown any interest in AshLee besides Graham, and even he isn't that charmed, whereas Clare seems to be the hottest commodity in the house. That clearly bothers her, maybe because they're the same age AKA old in Bachelorland. It's like she's looking for confirmation from people that Clare isn't all that with the way she was asking Zack if he's really attracted to her or if he's just willing to bang her, which was super weird. Seemed like he couldn't believe what he was hearing either.

 

I for one think Clare is ten times more attractive than AshLee, both looks and personality wise. She has a very feminine body, while the only thing feminine about AshLee's is bought.

[seacliffsal]

Excellent points.  It also explains why on two different episodes Ashlee makes the 'not pretty' comments about Clair.  Ashlee is probably struggling with Clair's popularity and is just totally thrown off by it.

[backformore]

Then she gave Zach a little relationship "test" when she asked if he wanted her to go out with other men.

 

Right - but there was no right answer to the test.     

"Cody asked me on a date - should I go?"

YES -   

"So you don't think what we have is special, you don't really care." 

NO - 

"You're trying to control me, you think you can tell me what to do." 

 

Zach just isn't eloquent enough  to give the perfect answer, which goes along the lines of "Gee, I really like you and think you're special, but if you're unsure enough about our relationship that you want to explore another option, then that's what you have to do, and I'll wait patiently for you."  

 

Just like his "depends on the girl"  was the right sentiment, but stated poorly.  More like, "What we have is special, but we've only known each other a few days.  I guess if someone new was interested in me, and I was the least bit attracted to her, I might want to give her a chance so I could be sure that what you and I have is truly special and not just a romance fueled by this beautiful location and experience."

 

Zach  likes her, but the relationship is still in the early stages, and he is nowhere near ready to commit.  I think it's unfair of Clare to expect him to forgo other opportunities in "paradise"  when she has flitted around with a few other guys before latching onto him, and is now toying with the idea of another guy.  

[wovenloaf]

I hate the way Clare says stuff about how she "needs a man who [insert whatever]" over and over again. There's nothing wrong with saying you want a partner that has certain qualities, but I feel like Clare always makes those comments in reaction to whatever Zack (or whoever) is doing to piss her off at the moment. So her comments are just a backhanded way of saying that person is lacking in some way...Clare's "I need a man who knows what he wants" isn't her actually being assertive, it's just her little passive-aggressive way of telling Zack he's failing. 

[TiredMe]

So glad no one was interested in Kalon. Couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy. So unattractive. Hey bachelor producers...no more Kalon and Chris B!!!

Ashlee's personality makes her ugly and there ain't no hiding that level of ugly.

Go Claire!

[Beebee111]

Wow. Just watching the show now. Is it okay for me to say that I wish I could assert myself as diplomatically but/and firmly as Clare?

 

As for Ashley, wow! There are some deep-seated psychological issues there that she has learned to cover quite well. I was equally fascinated and disturbed by how manipulative she is, particularly as she was giving that 'sweet' apology to Clare, when we all know how she really feels about her. Women like that scare me to no end, because you can't always see them coming. Clare, however, really had her number.

 

Then talk about karma. She meddles with Clare and then her "thing" with Graham gets meddling with. Karma makes for such great TV!

Edited August 27, 2014 by Beebee111

[Shugardrawers]

AshLee:  "I'm sorry IF I said/did something that hurt YOUR feelings" is NOT an apology!  Especially when you know exactly what you did!  That comes nowhere near apologizing for what you are completely aware was inappropriate behavior.  Politicians/athletes/actors and other public figures use that phrasing all the time.  That's just trying to LOOK like you are saying you are sorry without admitting you did anything wrong ergo no apology has been given.

 

Also, if you think you are a strong, modern woman then decline or hesitate your date offer, walk up to your man, tell him how YOU feel and if he's not on the same page then walk away.  His loss.

[Bugs Meany]

That's a good point. No one's shown any interest in AshLee besides Graham, and even he isn't that charmed, whereas Clare seems to be the hottest commodity in the house.

Well, from day one Ashlee declared not only that she was with Graham, but that she would stab anyone who showed interest in him. It's like she's on a different show that happens to be filming at the same "resort." Likewise, Lacy is attractive in a lowbrow kind of way, and much more approachable, but no one's asking her out. Have we even seen her talk to the other guys?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Bugs Meany

[ribboninthesky1]

Clare is one of those high-maintenance women who will go on and on about how low-maintenance she is, and probably believes it herself.

 

Yeah, after watching this episode, I thought Clare was as unhinged as Ashlee re: men, but she doesn't wear it on her sleeve for all to see the way Ashlee does. It's hidden behind the sunny, easy-going disposition.  In her conversation with Michelle, she was drawing comparisons to marriage, which was some of the dumbest shit I've heard yet. But then, I thought she was off on Juan Pablo's season as well.  It's not even about being emotional so much as manipulative and entitled, particularly regarding a relationship merely days old. Ironic that it was Graham who talked to Zack afterwards. He had this expression like, "Dude, I totally understand what you're going through, but I won't say so on camera."

[wovenloaf]

But then, I thought she was off on Juan Pablo's season as well.  

 

Yeah, she's pretty delusional. She sets up a "relationship" in her head, but it's not based on reality. I mean, Juan Pablo's own mother was telling Clare how hard JP is to deal with, and Clare hardly noticed and instead left all encouraged/excited/etc. about her "future" with JP. Like, if a man's own mother is sitting there telling you what an asshole he is, how can you not find that alarming?? 

[Palomar]

 

Yeah, she's pretty delusional. She sets up a "relationship" in her head, but it's not based on reality.

 

You could pretty much say thay about ALL of the relationships there.  I really doubt these "couples" would be joined at the hip after a couple of days of knowing each other (some without even going out on an actual date) if it wasn't that they have to be in a faux relationship to get a rose. 

[Rhondinella]

So her comments are just a backhanded way of saying that person is lacking in some way...Clare's "I need a man who knows what he wants" isn't her actually being assertive, it's just her little passive-aggressive way of telling Zack he's failing.

 

 

Yeah, to me what many see as "skillfully handling conflict" is actually very highly refined passive-agressiveness.  I hate it, because I've worked with people like that and it's frustrating as hell, but I can't help but admire the ability all the same.

 

And . . . OK, I hope I'm not being anti-feminist or anything here.  But, outside of just the general fact that AshLee was trash talking Clare trying to break up her and Zack, what was really wrong with what she said?  I mean, didn't we establish that she DID "sleep with" Juan Pablo in the ocean?  It may not have been directly stated on the show, but I think that's what he whispered to her on one of their final dates, when they were in the helicopter, wasn't it?  I believe interviews afterwards confirmed that he said something like, "I enjoyed f***ing you" or something, which set her off, of course.

 

Soooo . . . I mean, yes not a classy move on AshLee's part by any means.  And, I mean, what guy on this show is going to take the fact that she "slept with" another guy as a negative (I mean, they aren't exactly priests or choir boys, right?).  But I just don't see what the huge deal was with her bringing up the FACT itself.  Did AshLee think that somehow was going to make Zack like her LESS?  And why should Clare be so upset over AshLee sharing INFORMATION about something we all already know because it was splashed all over the media?  The motivation for why she shared the info (trashing Clare), yes, I understand being upset about.  But being upset because AshLee relayed what appears to be factual information about her to someone who probably couldn't care less whether it happened or not . . . I just didn't think it was worth getting her panties in a wad for.

 

Unless, as some say, she was hoping it would be her Bachelorette audition reel.

[backformore]

Soooo . . . I mean, yes not a classy move on AshLee's part by any means.  And, I mean, what guy on this show is going to take the fact that she "slept with" another guy as a negative (I mean, they aren't exactly priests or choir boys, right?).  But I just don't see what the huge deal was with her bringing up the FACT itself.  Did AshLee think that somehow was going to make Zack like her LESS?  And why should Clare be so upset over AshLee sharing INFORMATION about something we all already know because it was splashed all over the media?

 

I agree.  I guess I think of it was -  if someone I knew, a friend or relative was thinking of a relationship with Clare, I might make mention of the fact that I saw her on TV and, yeah, I'm pretty sure she screwed a guy, in the ocean, on TV.  Not saying it makes her a bad person, just saying - she did this.  Because my feelings about it are irrelevant, but the guy might care, if he didn't already know.   

If Ashlee called her a slut - that would be wrong (only because, hey, look what show we're on here). But all she did was say what happened on the season that Clare was on -  and basically what Clare was most known for on Juan Pablo's season. 

[ribboninthesky1]

I do think Ashlee's tone conveyed more than just stating a fact.  She was definitely implying something about Clare when she said it.  As stated, there was no point in bringing it up, especially since it was public knowledge.  And I was totally WTF over her telling Clare akin to, "you did nothing wrong. I am not upset with you." 

 

But those two are just different sides of the same manic, passive-aggressive coin to me - Ashlee's the intense, introverted one, and Clare's the sunny, easy-going one.  Clare's disposition makes her easier to like...on the surface.  I'll never forget the overblown reaction and confrontation with Nikki when I *think* Clare and some of the other women were talking shit about someone else, and Nikki got up and left the room.  I'm not sure the backbiting was that different than what Ashlee did, but Nikki wanted no part of it.  Yet Clare had a problem with that, and pulled a very similar move to Ashlee with the "I just wanted to talk to you and make sure I didn't say anything that offended you."  And now, Clare's all "girls are supposed to stick together" about talking behind someone's back.  And the way Clare laid into Zack about it was unnecessarily extra.  She's hearing this second hand, so she has no idea what Zack said or didn't say in response, or whether he "defended" her.  

 

I think Clare had a right to be annoyed about it, and not pretend to be okay with Ashlee over it. But I also think they're more alike than either realizes, and it might be why they ultimately clashed.

[BC Mama]

I still think AshLee looks like a low-rent Gisele Bundchen. 

I see it, but I always thought she was more of a wannabe Joey Lauren Adams!

[MsPH]

I'll never forget the overblown reaction and confrontation with Nikki when I *think* Clare and some of the other women were talking shit about someone else, and Nikki got up and left the room.  I'm not sure the backbiting was that different than what Ashlee did, but Nikki wanted no part of it.  Yet Clare had a problem with that, and pulled a very similar move to Ashlee with the "I just wanted to talk to you and make sure I didn't say anything that offended you."  And now, Clare's all "girls are supposed to stick together" about talking behind someone's back. 

 

I don't think they were talking shit, yet anyway, when Nikki stormed off. IIRC, Andi got to stay on the group date while the other women were sent back to the hotel. Nikki wasn't on the date because she'd had a one-on-one, so when they came back Nikki seemed happy that her friend go to stay. She then made some comment about Clare looking checked-out and not sure what else, but Clare said something like "I guess Andi needed the reassurance", which was actually true, but Nikki took it as trashing Andi, so she stormed off saying "This is stupid". I feel kind of appalled that I remember the incident so well, but it definitely didn't compare to AshLee's backbiting IMO, which was obviously an attempt to put Zack off Clare. Her freaking out about the camera being there just proved what her intentions were. Definitely no passing statement. 

 

But I totally agree that Clare is passive-aggressive. I just don't think she's malicious like AshLee.

[Cecily]

But why?  Clare was upset that he wasn't "all in" for their relationship, only because another guy wanted her.  I thought she was being somewhat hypocritical, actually.   She has one guy, and an alternate "on deck"  in case things don't go well with the first guy.   Why should Zach commit to her "basket"  when she wasn't committed enough to say to Cody "I can't start something with you, I'm already involved".   She wanted ZACH to be the one to tell her not to go with Cody, and Zach was saying she can make that decision herself.  

Maybe I'm not explaining it well - but Clare make her decision about Cody based on HER feelings about Zach, not Zach's feelings about her.   Zach was being realistic - in the beginning stages of a relationship, if she was considering dating another guy, then SHE was the one who was not "All in".  

Clare was trying to have it both ways - I want to know how you feel about me so I can decide how I feel about you.  SHE was being wishy-washy, and accusing Zach of being wishy-washy.  

 

That wasn't my take on the situation. In fact, Clare said in her voice-over that she didn't really want to date anyone else but Zack. However, she wasn't quite sure how he felt, so she talked to him to find out. Then she was disappointed that Zack didn't ask her not to date Cody, but instead implied that he wanted to keep his options open. Seemed pretty obvious to me that she was genuinly into Zack (why, I have no idea) and just wanted his reassurance that he was into her too.

 

But, outside of just the general fact that AshLee was trash talking Clare trying to break up her and Zack, what was really wrong with what she said?  I mean, didn't we establish that she DID "sleep with" Juan Pablo in the ocean?  It may not have been directly stated on the show, but I think that's what he whispered to her on one of their final dates, when they were in the helicopter, wasn't it?  I believe interviews afterwards confirmed that he said something like, "I enjoyed f***ing you" or something, which set her off, of course.

 

Soooo . . . I mean, yes not a classy move on AshLee's part by any means.  And, I mean, what guy on this show is going to take the fact that she "slept with" another guy as a negative (I mean, they aren't exactly priests or choir boys, right?).  But I just don't see what the huge deal was with her bringing up the FACT itself.  Did AshLee think that somehow was going to make Zack like her LESS?  And why should Clare be so upset over AshLee sharing INFORMATION about something we all already know because it was splashed all over the media?

 

Well, AshLee wasn't just "establishing fact" and "sharing information". She actually said something along the lines of "Would you really want to get serious with someone who **cked the bachelor in the ocean?" If that's not being judgemental and implying that Clare is a slut who's undeserving of Zack's attention, than I don't know what is.

[shok]

Whenever I see (saw) Clare on tv all I could think of was that family of hers and all her sisters and the nutso way they all interacted with each other. Clare was right there in the middle of all the cray cray and sure enough it all came out again in Paradise.

[KR Vermont]

Well, AshLee wasn't just "establishing fact" and "sharing information". She actually said something along the lines of "Would you really want to get serious with someone who **cked the bachelor in the ocean?" If that's not being judgemental and implying that Clare is a slut who's undeserving of Zack's attention, than I don't know what is.

Many of us have done things with prior dates that thankfully weren't recorded for millions of viewers around the world to witness again and again. Frankly, AshLee, some guys would think it a plus to get with a woman who has done it in the ocean. Maybe even "old" Graham has done something untoward in the past that would have you rethinking forever with him...doubt that's the sort of stuff he'd post on his social media you've been following, though.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KR Vermont

[NikSac]

On a mostly related note, I wonder if Clare's back to her salon in the Sacramento CA area now?  I'm in desperate need of a haircut and a new hairdresser.  I'd have to force myself not to even ask about the show(s), but I think she's a sweetheart and who doesn't love a girl who sees a raccoon for therapy?  (I'm not kidding, I talk to my dog about stuff sometimes and he's really quite helpful)

[chocolatine]

On a mostly related note, I wonder if Clare's back to her salon in the Sacramento CA area now?

 

 

This reminds me of something she said to Zach, but I forgot to mention in my earlier comments: when they had the follow-up conversation to it-depends-on-the-girl-gate, she said something to the effect of "I'm not asking you to get married and I'm not asking you to come to Chicago, I'm just asking you to commit for the duration of the show". So that would mean she lives in Chicago now?

[KR Vermont]

This reminds me of something she said to Zach, but I forgot to mention in my earlier comments: when they had the follow-up conversation to it-depends-on-the-girl-gate, she said something to the effect of "I'm not asking you to get married and I'm not asking you to come to Chicago, I'm just asking you to commit for the duration of the show". So that would mean she lives in Chicago now?

I heard Clare say Chicago too, and I immediately thought hey--isn't that where Cody lives too? (No, I'm not confusing him with Nick, ha.) Clare should've given Cody a spin, he was SO into her! Would've been fun to see if they'd hit it off, his energy is so different from Zack's. I don't particularly follow any of these reality folks around the media, has Clare mentioned any regret over not taking Cody up on his offer?

[magenta]

I don't know how to quote.

Clare was just refering to Chris. And how Elise. Followed him back to chi town. Not that she lives there.

Edited August 31, 2014 by magenta

[Bugs Meany]

That's what I thought. "Come back to Chicago" is basically a marriage proposal in the BiP vernacular.

[chocolatine]

OK, that makes sense. I just thought for a second that Clare may have moved to Chicago because so many franchise alumni live there and she wanted to keep her dating life "in the family".

[catdfraser]

I forgot how much Kalon is the BEST! Ok. Maybe with the exception of Wes and of course, Bentley, because he is still my hands down favorite.

[NikSac]

Boo... looks like Clare is no longer working at the same salon in Sacramento, or at least not currently. I really do love her hair and was hoping to go see her since I think she'd do a good job and need a cut/color so badly.  It might've been too hard not to ask about the show though, so maybe it's for the best.

[MarkHB]

Wouldn't "going to Chicago" make it more difficult to "swim in the ocean" together?  Or is Lake Michigan supposed to suffice?  ;)

[deSchenke]

Wouldn't "going to Chicago" make it more difficult to "swim in the ocean" together?  Or is Lake Michigan supposed to suffice?  ;)

You don't swim, you sleep in the ocean - together.

[JenE4]

Wouldn't "going to Chicago" make it more difficult to "swim in the ocean" together? Or is Lake Michigan supposed to suffice? ;)

According to Mikey and James (was that on Des's season?) Chicago is THE place to be to hook up with tall, rich women on boats! In Bachelor Nation, if you don't have a tropical ocean to have sex in, then Lake Michegan IS your next best bet!

[ramble]

According to Mikey and James (was that on Des's season?) Chicago is THE place to be to hook up with tall, rich women on boats!

Every time there is a date on BIP with a boat involved I feel a little sad that these guys didn't get a chance to show up in paradise.

[Bugs Meany]

Mikey T. was supposed to be on the show!!  He never got called up or something.

 

We came SO close ;-(

[ramble]

I know Bugs & it makes me sad. We could've had Mikey & we got the dude who dated himself, Jesse & Brooks. Boo!