S01.E03: Long Long Time

[Scaeva]

12 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I don't agree with the Primetimer argument, but I appreciate them making it. 

I don't think we'll know if this episode is "cloying" (their term) until we see the arc of the entire series (at least 2 seasons now).

For me, I thought it was novel to show two decent* people surviving more-or-less fine in the zombie apocalypse. Now, if every few weeks we have a similar story of decency thriving, that will indeed be cloyingly unbelievable. We're talking about humans here, after all. 

But one hour out of 20+ showing that a capable, prepared survivalist could keep himself and partner alive and thriving...that was new to me. (Also, representation still matters.)

I also thought it was thematically important to touch base again about WHY you want to do more than "survive."

*I mean, zombie apocalypse shows have shown TERRIBLE people thriving, but that's an important difference.

I loved that there were at least two people who were living a somewhat normal life, or as normal as was possible under the circumstances, who had rebuilt a small slice of civilization, even if was just for them.

Zombie flicks and other post apocalyptic films often portray humanity as going full Lord of the Flies the moment our species reverts to a primitive state, with every encounter with other people not in the protagonists' immediate circle revealing them to be untrustworthy, selfish, and irrationally violent, but while it might make for cinematic drama it's just not very realistic at all.

Humanity has had plenty of disasters on a smaller scale that may as well have been apocalyptic for the people experiencing them, like the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake & tsunami, the 2011 Tohuku earthquake & tsunami, the Chernobyl disaster, ect...and while all of those might have featured some isolated cases of selfish or abusive behavior by individuals, on the whole people got through it by  supporting each other as best as they were able. In Pliny the Younger's account of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 BCE, he reports that some of the bewildered survivors from Pompeii & the surrounding area - of which he was one - did think it was the end of the world. They didn't turn on each other either. Humans don't turn on each other when the chips are really down, they band together.

No doubt TLOU will feature some of the genre tropes, as it has with FEDRA and the brief encounter with the raiders, but it's nice to have some characters other than the leads who aren't complete dogshit, and it gives the setting a bit more verisimilitude. If civilization collapsed every other band of survivors isn't going to want to rob or eat you.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Scaeva

[Absurda]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Someone mentioned, though, last episode, that the swearing was too much. I'm no prude and swear a lot myself, but I'm over Ellie swearing in all her lines. I never palyed the game, so I don't know it is how the character is or something they decided for the series, but make it stop.

 

I think that's just typical teenage posturing.  She wants to be perceived at tough, hard and untouchable so she swears like a tough guy.  I agree it's annoying, but it's pretty typical teen behavior.  Teens can be annoying as hell.

[paramitch]

I loved this. Loved it. It's one of the loveliest and most profound episodes of television I've seen in a long time. It's one of the rare times a show has exhilarated me by being brave enough not to emphasize violence, but love and kindness and gentleness -- by doing something genuinely thought-provoking that says something about what it means to be human.

For those criticizing this episode as outside the main story, it is absolutely not outside the main story. Bill and Frank's love story is about why survival isn't enough -- it isn't enough that humanity merely survive, they have to remember how to actually live.

Bill the survivalist was a pro at "surviving" (seriously, amazing) but not at living -- until Frank.

Joel, too, has been "surviving" ever since his daughter's death. A functioning machine but not living or feeling his life. Hence the heartbreaking admission from Tess that she knew he didn't "feel the same way" about her -- that even though she loved him, he was still walled off, just surviving, not living, not loving.

Which is why this tender story of these two men was so moving to me, and so important to the overall story. It was so interesting to see Joel and Ellie enter this home and I felt so protective of Frank and Bill's things! Of their home. I knew how much love had taken place there and I wanted Joel and Ellie to treat it respectfully (which they pretty much did). 

Some of my favorite moments:

• Ellie's speech to Joel that Tess's death wasn't her fault and he needs to stop blaming her. I thought we saw a lot from Ellie there -- the hint of sadness at Tess's loss, her defiance and vulnerability, etc. And loved Joel's curt nod in response. The ice is melting.
• How fun it was to see someone react SMARTLY to an apocalypse. I mean, for God's sakes, it's so frustrating to see people act like absolute morons when it comes to survival on all these fictional depictions. Bill's competence was really fun to watch.
• Bill's shy kindness to Frank right away -- his bringing him the clothes, his shy preparation of that beautiful meal. The visible appreciation he had for life despite his loneliness. A hundred little touches that conveyed interest in Frank in ways he would not have admitted aloud.
• How absolutely terrible Frank's playing was! I loved that! I was waiting for the usual trope where he would play flawlessly, so his stomping through "Long, Long Time" was really funny.
• The delicacy and sweetness of Bill's playing -- and how visibly it moved Frank. That is the moment Frank falls for Bill, and we see it in his face. The tear is still on his cheek when he kisses Bill! (Nick Offerman is great in this, but Murray Bartlett is every bit as wonderful).
• Bill and Frank giggling over the strawberries. Their joy in that small thing was so wonderful and real to me.
• Goddamn Max Richter and his cursedly gorgeous moving "Reflections on the Nature of Daylight." I was bawling through Frank's last day. Loved the little touches there too -- the shot of the pit where Frank fell, the paintings, the tall strawberry plants in the sunshine. The fact that Frank made him the same meal he made that very first day (with the same wine).
• The fact that they both laughed when Frank realized Bill had taken the poison too. Because they both knew it was just the way it was, and they loved each other so much.
• Ellie's face when she stopped at Tess's name in Bill's letter (I do not get the criticisms -- I think Bella Ramsay is just superb in the role) Also -- if you pause on the letter, Bill ends by suggesting some wine pairings, and I swear to God I love that so much.
• Joel's emotion when he stepped outside -- it was like someone had opened a door to his heart, and for the first time, we saw him allow himself to feel both love and pain for Tess.
• Joel and Ellie driving away to "Long, Long Time," for the first time with this delicate sense of real camaraderie. Not friendship yet, but they are family now (loved Joel's slight hesitance to touch Ellie when he showed her how to work the seatbelt, because that kind of intimacy makes it so easy to start caring, and he's still flinching away from that stuff.
• The fact that Joel actually allows himself to ALMOST grin at Ellie -- with a little inadvertent smile (when she tells him to shower), when she says he looks pretty, and then again in the car, he actually smiles full-on (sneakily) when she says the song is "better than nothing"
• The final gorgeous shot of the open window in Frank and Bill's bedroom, the curtains in the breeze, the view of the late golden afternoon light, the song playing, and Bill's portrait by Frank off to the left by the flowers. Everything painful and beautiful in that one shot.

I was so afraid the raiders would get Bill and Frank, or something cruel would mar their lives, and so thrilled nothing did -- nothing but life. They had that incredible time together. So much more than most people get. As Bill said, it wasn't tragic. It was just life.

On 1/29/2023 at 7:54 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Seriously.... how in the hell did this show managed to create one of the most emotional and best love stories on television in one hour while other shows take seasons to maybe get halfway there or sometimes even flat-out fail?!

As for the story itself, I saw where a lot of it was heading, but I still thought it was a natural and even realistic look about what love would likely be like between these two characters and living in this kind of world.  I suspected that it was going to end on a sad note, but I'm glad it was more bittersweet than tragic because at least they did have a good fifteen years or so together, grew old with one another, and both went out on their own terms.  I suspect for a show/universe like this, that's about as good of an ending as one could hope for.  But their entire journey was just beautiful to watch.

Everything you said. Lovely post.

On 1/29/2023 at 8:19 PM, TheOtherOne said:

A lot of good interviews about the episode:

Thank you so much for those -- I enjoyed every single one of the articles.

18 hours ago, Anela said:

Tess told them that they were decent people, just trying to get by. She told Ellie they weren't good people. 

I loved that little detail and the nuance it showed. It spoke volumes about the 10+ years that followed and how those years changed Tess and Joel into people they themselves knew were no longer "good people."

15 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Slightly tangential, but really respect the unflinching, unresolved anger in the song "Long Long Time," which doesn't try to tidy up some very intense and messy feelings about unrequited love. (Even that fancy word "unrequited" is gussying up the emotion.)

Ronstadt's shouting of the final "...everything I know to try and make you mine..." is perfect. And the song even ends on a minor chord! Sometimes these feelings just don't resolve...

I so agree. I've always had a weakness for this song and the pain in it -- direct contrasts to the beauty of Ronstadt's voice and the delicate musical aspects like the strings and harpsichord. It's ironic that a song about unrequited or broken love is often an even more powerful love song, somehow, anyway. 

13 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

What a beautiful, quiet episode. Not playing the game, I loved it. It's so rare to see someone survive the apocalypse and live "normally" for not just a few months (I'm looking at you Walking Dead), but a lifetime. And that Frank and Bill, two people who would probably never have met in pre-fungus years, found the loves of their life like this was wonderful. Every scene just added to the whole picture so much that by the end it's heartbreaking, and yet, I found it weirdly hopeful at the same time. They survived to old age and died with dignity on their own terms, not from violence from raiders or FEDRA or fungus people. Could Frank have lived longer had this happened in an age where treatment was available for whatever was wrong with him? Maybe, but as someone who has watched a loved one suffer through multiple rounds of chemo and still succumb to fucking cancer, it's hard not to see that this is in some ways a more peaceful way to go. Anyway, lots to think about, so good on them......

This show is doing an amazing job creating fully realized characters in a short time. My favorite moments were when Frank showed Bill the strawberries and their joy over them, and Ellie's amazement of riding in a car for the first time. It's the little things...

I agree so much. I'm so sorry for your loss. I have also seen worse deaths that what Bill and Frank took on their own terms, and this really broke me... but in a good way. Sometimes I am just happy with fiction that I "met" certain characters, and I am so happy I got to meet Bill and Frank, and glimpse their lives. I was so happy they ended peacefully, on their own terms, and after years of love and life together.

13 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I was okay until the “last day”, and then they went and played “On the Nature of Daylight”, which I have loved ever since it was used in Arrival. Cue the tears 🥺🥺🥺

Oh, absolutely. One of the most beautiful pieces of music ever. Completely guts me every time (and definitely in Arrival and here).

12 hours ago, Sian said:

Yes, it was a tragedy of sorts because they both died, but that happens to us all.  For me, it was more a story of how two people in the midst of unspeakable horror found a way to truly LIVE.  This episode will remain with me for a long time.

Beautifully put. And me too.

6 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Regarding Ellie, while I agree that behaviour looks a bit off sometimes, I believe that her background has been so different that she's simply too used to death. There's a book about a Holocaust survivor who was about fifteen when he was sent to the camps and at some point he started to see everything that was happening as normal. You can get used to horror and Ellie hasn't known any other kind of existence.

I think this is it exactly. Ellie is a teenager trying to find whatever little moments of joy that she can, and she's still a little drunk on simply being out of captivity. For her, everything is still a spectacle -- almost entertainment. I do think Bella Ramsay is doing a great job at communicating Ellie's darker side and trauma, it's just that they aren't front and center. In a lot of ways, she is more like Joel that she would admit -- she covers her fear and sadness and vulnerability just like he does, just masks it with insouciance and sarcasm. And she's still enough of a little girl to have hope.

5 hours ago, giovannif7 said:

I had no problem believing Bill's mother passed along a love of Ronstadt's music, including the messy, aching beauty of Long Long Time - and I'd wager his memory of learning to play it from his mom (based upon his gentle fingering of the keys) so she could sing along is one that Bill had been clinging to since she passed. As for Frank - I didn't get the impression he really knew the song before finding the sheet music, based upon his uptempo, halting playing. I believe the loneliness and pain in Bill's voice as he sang was what initially drew Frank to him - watch Frank's face as Bill plays and sings - leading to the "so who's the girl?" question before going in for that first kiss when the answer was the one he wanted. Offerman and Bartlett were absolutely brilliant throughout - I believed every moment of their relationship.

I've clearly fallen in love with this episode, and have been obsessing over it since first seeing it yesterday. #sorrynotsorry

Lovely analysis of Bill's gentle rendition of the song -- I love the idea that it was introduced to him by his mother, although I do think he was old enough to know the song on its own.

I do think Frank knew the song. He chooses it and says, "there, this is you," to Bill. He has just had a sophisticated and beautiful meal Bill prepared, with an exquisite wine, and he sees this hidden vulnerability and yearning in Bill. When he says "This is you," he is saying, "I see who you really are." And he was right.

And then Bill sits down and plays and sings the song so sweetly, and that is the moment I believe Frank falls in love with him. It is complex because I do think Frank wanted desperately for Bill to let him stay -- he has happened on this incredible place and person where he can actually experience some semblance of safety and life and pleasure. I do think he is trying on some subliminal level to seduce Bill if he can -- to stay with him. But then Bill sings, and I think that conscious aspect of Frank's behavior goes away and he just acts truly, without trying to charm him. The tears on his cheeks when he kisses Bill are just so surprising and such a lovely detail.

Edited January 31, 2023 by paramitch

[LoveLeigh]

This was a beautiful episode.

Edited January 31, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[maddie965]

Best review ever.

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2023/01/the-last-of-us-long-long-time1/#comment-6103141602

[Mr. Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

Best review ever.

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2023/01/the-last-of-us-long-long-time1/#comment-6103141602

Even the review made me a little weepy. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Abra said:

I get the feeling we're supposed to be rooting for a Joel/Ellie father/daughter type of bond, but after the scene where she killed that infected person (in addition to her attitude in previous eps) Ellie is just reading to me as a sociopath, and I don't root for sociopaths. I actually hadn't considered that it might be the actress not being good enough to show any kind of nuance if that's not how she's supposed to come across, so I guess we'll see in future episodes with what she tries to show vs. what the script is telling us. 

 

People's milage will vary, but I saw her act as a mercy killing rather than a sign of sociopathy. 

I don't see signs from Ellie that she has abnormal emotions for a teenager, especially when you factor in her having been raised post-apocalypse. She seems to have a normal set of emotions and a high level of awareness of at least Joel's emotions. 

[diebartdie]

10 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Someone mentioned, though, last episode, that the swearing was too much. I'm no prude and swear a lot myself, but I'm over Ellie swearing in all her lines. I never palyed the game, so I don't know it is how the character is or something they decided for the series, but make it stop.

Heh, in 1980 I was 14 and the main thing I was known for in school was being "that girl who says fuck all the time", I thought I was SO PUNK ROCK lmao.

[Racj82]

12 hours ago, giovannif7 said:

Hardly obscure - Long Long Time was Ronstadt's first Top 40 solo hit.

Being a hit in its time doesn't make something not obscure.

The same with Kate Bush last year with Stranger Things. A lot of people know it, sure. But, it's not a song that the general population knows or remembers. Millions of people can be into something but it still be obscure due to how many people are out there.

I have no problem with these characters having reverence for it though. It's not really worth pointing out imo.

I hate how people can be with source material. Adaptations are never meant to be 1 to 1 copies of the source. If they don't deviate, what exactly is the point?

It only bothers at times when it's just the framework of a story taken and the rest is thrown away. Then, I might ask what is the point? It could be any story at that point.

The show This is Us faced the same issue I can see this show having. What's the point of this? This show is about the main characters? I don't know these people! Get back to the plot!

Along with me being cool with whatever show people want to make instead of dictating what they should do, thr bigger thing is that this whole world is about much more than two people. There should be room to explore the world. The characters around it. It won't always be like this. But, it's like the cold opens we've been getting but expanding a bit.

I get what I will be getting with a show like this. Having a beautiful story within it is a plus for me.  This episode didn't wreck me or anything. Got me in the feels but that was about it. It was sweet. For me, nothing wrong with that.

[tennisgurl]

When I sat down to watch this weeks episode, I had no idea that we were going to get a zombie apocalypse version of the first ten minutes of Up, but I am so very glad that we did. This was such a unique idea for an episode, especially in this genre and after so much intense action and horror in the first two episodes, I am truly impressed. Such a touching and heartfelt episode, with great performances that made me really feel like I got to know Frank and Bill and their relationship so well in just an hour. 

I really need to stop watching this show before bed. Normally because its too scary and I start jumping at shadows, but now because I was too emotional to get to bed, I had to take some time after that hit to my feelings. Just a really powerful episode of TV, and the fact that we took a break from our usual (if very well done) zombie show antics to get this very intimate and touching romance episode really makes me feel like this show is going to be something special. 

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's milage will vary, but I saw her act as a mercy killing rather than a sign of sociopathy

I mean...the face she made before doing it showed no empath or sorrow about that things predicament.

1 hour ago, diebartdie said:

Heh, in 1980 I was 14 and the main thing I was known for in school was being "that girl who says fuck all the time", I thought I was SO PUNK ROCK lmao.

Funny to me. I don't think Ellie even swears that much nor do I really notice. Wouldn't bother me either way though. Teens are often like babies when it comes to swearing. They glow onto the words and throws them out whenever they can.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's milage will vary, but I saw her act as a mercy killing rather than a sign of sociopathy. 

I don't see signs from Ellie that she has abnormal emotions for a teenager, especially when you factor in her having been raised post-apocalypse. She seems to have a normal set of emotions and a high level of awareness of at least Joel's emotions. 

I have no doubt that she was taught (by Fedra, let's not forget) the infected aren't people anymore, they're skin suits being worn by a fungus that is on the brink of wiping out humanity.  There's no cure, so don't hesitate if you have to kill one.  And if you're going to get sad about who each infected person used to be then have fun wallowing in despair.

[maddie965]

Another great review: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/jan/30/the-last-of-us-recap-episode-three-absolutely-magical-television

[iMonrey]

It occurs to me that Bill and Frank's relationship is a mirror of Joel and Ellie's. Bill was the hardened loner, was unwilling to let Frank in, Frank eventually wore him down as he got to know him. Bill is the realist who just wants to survive, whereas Frank still has an appreciation for life itself. Joel = Bill and Ellie = Frank. 

So these Cordyceps jumped straight from ants to humans, huh? Because there are still rabbit to eat, apparently, or were those the only animals immune?

[Chicago Redshirt]

47 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So these Cordyceps jumped straight from ants to humans, huh? Because there are still rabbit to eat, apparently, or were those the only animals immune?

I think we saw Bill had kept chickens. I don't know if we could extrapolate from the rabbit prepared early on that the fungus can't grow in other mammals. It could be that Bill had used an uninfected rabbit, but there are infected animals out there, for instance. 

I guess all mushrooms are off people's menus though...

[Capricasix]

27 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I guess all mushrooms are off people's menus though...

I never liked them anyway. Take that, Cordyceps! 😄

[Kate47]

It seems to have skipped some animals, we saw the frogs and ducks in the last episode. But so far I haven't seen any, say, dogs and cats. Could be that keeping a domesticated animal is a little low on the priority list, or maybe the cordyceps made its way into the dry pet food too.

[cardigirl]

I wanted to love this episode. Surely Linda Rondstat's "Long, Long Time" would drive emotions, and it did. I love that song, and it has very personal connotations for me, but Bill and Frank's love did not move me. I enjoyed the humor and the scene with the strawberries, but I don't know that these two would have ever been together if the apocalypse had not occurred. Maybe that was the point, one needed the other to take care of him, and in return he gave love. 

After reading the PrimeTimer review, I have the unpopular opinion of agreeing with a lot of what was said. A lot of Frank and Bill's story was not a surprise, although, I was certain disaster was going to occur at some point (infection, raiders, fight with each other that ends in tragedy) but none of that occurred really. They avoided infection, fought off the raiders, and only had the one fight about sprucing up the town. (For the love of god, what?) But they did get older, and Frank got ill, and so ... 

It was very nice to see Joel and Tess in earlier times. 

Joel and Ellie continue to evolve. She's not trusting him 100%, which seems very realistic to me. I fear Joel is underestimating Ellie at this point. When you have to be on guard 24/7 it is hard to let those defenses down.

I think the part of the show that moved me the most was Joel telling Ellie about the executions of healthy people there was no room for in the government centers, seeing the scraps of cloth clinging to the two skeletons, and then, in the flashback, seeing those pieces of cloth as clothing and a blanket on a young woman and her baby. Horrifying. 

 

[possibilities]

18 hours ago, Starchild said:

Joel looking at the dead marigolds(?)

I think those were chrysanthemums

---

I know nothing about the video game, and am not really interested in apocalypse or zombie stories at the moment-- I'm too tragedied out, basically. But I heard so many rave reviews of this show, that I tried the first episode and then the first few minutes of the 2nd, before skipping to this one, since I'd heard it was a tour de force of gaylove, and how could I skip over that?

Quote

And Ramsey mostly plays Ellie as a teenager on a fun fieldtrip with an air of 'this is so cool!' There are no layers, no nuance, just nothing there.

I've been assuming that's the work of the latent infection she's carrying. She might be a sociopath, but she could also be having her personality altered, even though she's not dying or acting like a rage zombie. Maybe the "immunity" she has is because the fungus mutated again, to be less virulent and more subtle in its effects, rather than that her body actually de-activated it. Some organisms take the survival tactic of spread/kill fast, and others are slower, and allow their hosts to live, but serve them less via transmission and more toward long term residency-- and the slow ones tend to survive longer overall because they don't run out of living hosts.

Quote

That said:  Of course The Gays are going to be the ones to preserve art, and music, and fashion, and fine dining, and gracious living, even in the teeth of an apocalypse, while The Straights immediately abandon everything -- including a fundamental sense of humanity, as evinced by the mass grave of the uninfected -- in favor of basic survival.  I feel like I should be offended by that, but the performances from Offerman and Bartlett sold me so completely on their story that I don't really care.

But we're still just fodder, not main characters, not leads. Just a pleasant detour, a little distraction from the mayhem. We get to be aesthetic but tragic, we don't get to drive the story or stick around more than one token, segregated moment. You gotta kill us off and keep us separate, just like the infected. Lovely, but circumscribed.

Quote

Do we have any idea how long Bill and Frank had been dead?

I don't know for sure, but Ellie asked why the particular music was playing, and Joel said that if Bill doesn't re-set it every few weeks, it broadcasts 80s music. So I'm thinking it had been a few weeks.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by possibilities
fix typo

[jcin617]

 

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Agree with you about the scenery. I live 10 miles west of Boston and Newton does not have mountains. 🤣

What... you've never hiked or camped in the Waltham Mountains?  😄

[go4luca]

On 1/30/2023 at 10:06 AM, driver18 said:

This is in response to my:  "And Ramsey mostly plays Ellie as a teenager on a fun field trip with an air of 'this is so cool!'"

The alternative is not a mopey, emo teen, though. My point was that we're not getting any layers or nuance to the fact that Ellie is going through some serious, horrific shit. Let her be dealing with it internally. Give us a glimpse that she is being effected by this. Moments here and where she takes it all in and then pastes on that 'Fuck it' attitude. 'I'm out here in the world, and I'm gonna enjoy the fucking view, Goddamnit!' But we aren't getting those layers at all. And so because of that the teenage girl who was held chained up for a few weeks, chased by zombies, watched a person savagely beaten to death, someone kind to her blown up, walked by a mass gravesite, and then just blithely how-to-do's merrily along her way comes across as a bit of a psychopath.

That is the issue for me. All of this horror can't happen to someone and we see no sign of it effecting that individual without coming to the conclusion that something ain't right with that person. Or alternately, the actor just isn't that great.

I'm not getting this.  For full disclosure, non game player here.  But I am a Bella Ramsay fan since GOT. 

We're only three episodes in.  Perhaps the layers you are missing in Ellie's portrayal are coming.  Perhaps not.  I'm seeing a young, bright, inquisitive kid who's tough around the edges because she's had to be, in order to survive.  Because of this, her layers are protected and not casually hanging out on the surface.

But as her relationship and time with Joel increases, we may see more of Ellie's layers.  During the scene she had with the infected man in the basement, I could literally see the span of thoughts running through her mind as she assessed the situation and made her decision.  I don't find that bad acting.  It came across organic and real.

[tljgator]

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I have no doubt that she was taught (by Fedra, let's not forget) the infected aren't people anymore, they're skin suits being worn by a fungus that is on the brink of wiping out humanity.  There's no cure, so don't hesitate if you have to kill one.  And if you're going to get sad about who each infected person used to be then have fun wallowing in despair.

She specifically asks Joel (after he replies that he has killed them before) if it bothered him that they used to be people, so until something more direct is shown, I tend to think she's testing out her ideas about whether it's troubling, etc., especially since she didn't grow up in the before times. (Also trying not to imprint ideas from other zombie-focused franchises -- less so here than the earlier episode with the wandering kid -- even if all my brain wants to call to mind is "look at the flowers.")

Side note: I could also get with the idea that the fungus is in her to some degree and is either impacting her in some way, or she's testing her relationship to it...for instance here, is the cut to see if she feels linked to it (like they saw from the group in Boston), etc.? *shrugs* Just spitballing.

[go4luca]

5 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I hate how people can be with source material. Adaptations are never meant to be 1 to 1 copies of the source. 

+💯

I've seen these same types get completely bent out of shape many times.  If only they would stand back, take a breath and accept that these are adaptations.  It can be due to budget, vision, directorial choice, who knows.  But maybe try going in knowing it won't be exactly how one envisioned while reading the book or playing the game.  If it works - great!  If it doesn't, you are always free to move on.  It's that simple.

[Ilovepie]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would imagine that chemistry is always an unpredictable thing, but even more so in a post-apocalyptic setting. Between being saved even temporarily from the horrors of the infected, a temporary end to loneliness, having what had to be the first wine in a long time for Frank and having someone appreciate you for the first time in a long time, possibly ever for Bill; a first good meal, and hearing a favorite tune, it wouldn't be surprising to me that there would be some sparks if they found the person at all attractive. 

I was wondering about Bill's backstory - from the show perspective, not the game. This was Bill's first time with a man, and he tells Frank he had been with a woman before. I've been wondering if pre-pandemic, was Bill a closeted gay or was he hetero? He was alone in that village for FOUR YEARS. Like, totally alone. I cannot fathom the crushing loneliness of that. I know he was a loner type before the fungus, but it's one thing to be a loner and completely different to be living like last man on earth. I am a hetero woman, but honestly, if I was isolated like that for that long and a nice woman came along, I don't think I would say no.....

[Duke2801]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:19 PM, TheOtherOne said:

A lot of good interviews about the episode:

Variety with the writers:

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-last-of-us-episode-3-bill-frank-nick-offerman-murray-bartlett-1235505272/

Hollywood Reporter with the writers:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/the-last-of-us-episode-3-interview-changes-game-1235308896/

And with Offerman and Bartlett:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/last-of-us-nick-offerman-murray-bartlett-episode-3-interview-1235304427/

Deadline with the creators:

https://deadline.com/2023/01/the-last-us-interview-neil-druckmann-craig-mazin-nick-offerman-murray-bartlett-pedro-pascal-1235242560/

Thank you for sharing those! Very interesting how they changed the story of Bill and Frank—for the better (imo). 
 

Learning that one of the writers of this episode also wrote for the limited series “It’s A Sin” made so much sense. That series and this episode were both so beautiful and heartbreaking. ❤️

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't know for sure, but Ellie asked why the particular music was playing, and Joel said that if Bill doesn't re-set it every few weeks, it broadcasts 80s music. So I'm thinking it had been a few weeks.

It started playing 80s music as Joel was leaving his room for the last time, so it hasn't been very long at all.

57 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

I was wondering about Bill's backstory - from the show perspective, not the game. This was Bill's first time with a man, and he tells Frank he had been with a woman before. I've been wondering if pre-pandemic, was Bill a closeted gay or was he hetero? He was alone in that village for FOUR YEARS. Like, totally alone. I cannot fathom the crushing loneliness of that. I know he was a loner type before the fungus, but it's one thing to be a loner and completely different to be living like last man on earth. I am a hetero woman, but honestly, if I was isolated like that for that long and a nice woman came along, I don't think I would say no.....

Didn't he suggest his one time with a woman was a very long time ago? Perhaps as a teen while struggling with his identity. I see him as gay, not just a lonely hetero.

[Capricasix]

2 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

Learning that one of the writers of this episode also wrote for the limited series “It’s A Sin” made so much sense. That series and this episode were both so beautiful and heartbreaking. ❤️

Speaking of ‘80s music 😄

[TheOtherOne]

The Last of Us’ Gorgeous Gay Love Story Could Not Be More Timely

Quote

This brings me to the “urgent” part I mentioned earlier, about why this episode arrives at an opportune moment. Right now, in the real world, queer people—most prominently the trans and gender-diverse among us—find ourselves in a dangerous quagmire of our own. According to many on the right, we are the fungus spreading through society, our tendrils of “gender ideology” and sexual deviance infecting and “grooming” children so that we might create more like ourselves. Like any such infection, we should be stamped out—definitely ripped from the public square, ideally eradicated from existence entirely. How powerful, then, to see not only a gay couple given an entire hour of a marquee show, but a gay couple who are held up as the keepers of civilization, as stewards of beauty, as emblems of human dignity and possibility. As furry, affectionate reminders that queers, whatever our circumstances, can flourish, fight, and win. As maybe not the last of us, but certainly the best.

 

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

But we're still just fodder, not main characters, not leads. Just a pleasant detour, a little distraction from the mayhem. We get to be aesthetic but tragic, we don't get to drive the story or stick around more than one token, segregated moment. You gotta kill us off and keep us separate, just like the infected. Lovely, but circumscribed.

I totally feel this, and as a member of the LGBTQ community, I get so sick of the bury your gays trope, or the tokenization, etc.

However, the good news is that what you say isn't really true here, though. Spoiling it but...

Spoiler

Ellie -- one of the two leads here -- is eventually revealed to be gay.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by paramitch
needed to fix my word usements

[wanderingstar]

A character like Ellie would usually annoy me, but Bella Ramsey is doing a good job of portraying the character as alternately impetuous, insolent, childlike, fearful. I'm enjoying seeing her relationship with Joel evolve.

[driver18]

5 hours ago, go4luca said:

I'm not getting this.  For full disclosure, non game player here.  But I am a Bella Ramsay fan since GOT. 

We're only three episodes in.  Perhaps the layers you are missing in Ellie's portrayal are coming.  Perhaps not.  I'm seeing a young, bright, inquisitive kid who's tough around the edges because she's had to be, in order to survive.  Because of this, her layers are protected and not casually hanging out on the surface.

But as her relationship and time with Joel increases, we may see more of Ellie's layers.  During the scene she had with the infected man in the basement, I could literally see the span of thoughts running through her mind as she assessed the situation and made her decision.  I don't find that bad acting.  It came across organic and real.

I'm a fan from her GOT days as well. And also from her voiceover work from the children's cartoon, "Hilda." That's why I'm so surprised by the lacking I'm finding in their performance.

It's great you're enjoying it, and I know I'm in the minority. Hopefully as the season progresses, I'll be more impressed. It's just not working for me right now.

[diebartdie]

4 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

This was Bill's first time with a man, and he tells Frank he had been with a woman before. I've been wondering if pre-pandemic, was Bill a closeted gay or was he hetero?

Two things to consider. Frank asked Bill (after Bill played that song so beautifully) "who's the girl?" and Bill answered "there was no girl" then when the bears are in bed, Frank asks Bill if he had ever done it before, with anyone and Bill barely stammers out "one time with a girl long ago" which reinforces this was not the girl he had been singing about as well as puts Bill's experience in the "long ago, far away" category. I don't know about every LGBTQ+ person's experiences but I do know mine and I do know my wife's and I do know my sister's and her husband's and every single one of us "experimented" back in our youths. For me, one time made it so blatantly clear that no, Im not oriented that way, not even halfway that way. Same for my wife. My sister and her husband experimented long enough and I guess extensively enough that now that their kids are out of the house, they're both comfortable identifying as bi.

Watching the show, part of what was heartbreaking to me was thinking Bill had himself convinced he was not (socially) allowed to be himself, mainly due to his political leanings. One day maybe we'll all just leave each other alone and just quit worrying about it. Frankly, it's creepy to realize how many people are literally angry that Im married to the love of my life. We're just two elderly ladies! The only use we have for children is possibly mowing the lawn or weeding the garden, maybe pick up our groceries, seriously, we can barely groom ourselves, we do not give a shit about anyone's kid.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, diebartdie said:

we do not give a shit about anyone's kid.

Like this guy????

[Alric the Red]

While disagreeing with Juan Barquin--the author of this review--I see his point, his initial gut reaction.  However, I believe if he stops making a comparison to the game, he'll permit himself the immersion into this story, not the one he thinks the creators should be telling.  Had the writers not gone this route, the performance would have been as stiff as it was in the video game.  And I can take him to task on a thing or two.

First, this side story does stray from the primary narrative of the virus and all of its creepy tropes.  But it did, however, in the style of The Walking Dead, accrue to the world building.  Bill was a man who existed with a life outside of Joel and Tess (and now Ellie), with an untold adventure or two.  Along with fleshing out Bill, we got a glimpse of how roving marauders were behaving, more details of this new world.  Remember, we're still at the nascent stage of this series, and are therefore still unfamiliar with life in general outside the strongholds.  This tender segue accomplished a couple of things: it dovetailed with the original video game narrative, albeit in a grander-the-expected way; and provided detail for life outside the fascist compounds.  

And, my God, I was crying.  Kudos to these two actors, and kudos to the creators for having the sensitivity to bring this relationship alive.  I don't agree that it was something that would have been more appropriate in 2003, where it would have seemed edgy.  At what point do we stop showing the deep emotional same-sex relationships?  Should we stop showing interracial relationships as well, since it's au courant these days?  No.  This should be the norm.  I was moved to tears, just as I've been so many times in the past with countless other romantic relationships.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Alric the Red

[cardigirl]

Another review that I agree with. Of course, many of the replies to the review do not agree with its take on the episode, but they also don't offer anything in the way of a structured argument as to why this episode should not be critiqued and found wanting. Mostly people accuse him of being talentless, LOL. 

 

[Whimsy]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:10 PM, bilgistic said:

My take on this: There are people who are coming to this story with no game knowledge and don't want to be spoiled with game information ("what happened in the game...") because it can hint at something that could happen later.

This is exactly the reason why we have this rule. Thank you. 

[Whimsy]

On 1/30/2023 at 10:30 PM, Raachel2008 said:

 

Someone mentioned, though, last episode, that the swearing was too much. I'm no prude and swear a lot myself, but I'm over Ellie swearing in all her lines. I never palyed the game, so I don't know it is how the character is or something they decided for the series, but make it stop.

That was me. And, I wasn’t complaining, necessarily, about how much swearing there was but just that it wasn’t organic sounding. Swear words seem to be just put randomly into sentences that make it sound clunky and unnatural. I noticed it a few times this episode as well. The one that stands out to me the most was when they walked into Bill and Frank’s house and Ellie swore as if something weird and shocking had happened, but at that time they just had walked into a quiet, yet nice house. Nothing to react so bizarrely over. I don’t remember exactly what she said, but I remember being taken out of the scene. To me, it just feels like the characters in games swear a lot … because… and it was “edgy” to have a young girl in the game swear so they are making sure Ellie in the show swears a lot.  I’d rather it sound natural and the swears make sense to the context of the scene, but whatever lol. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

While disagreeing with Juan Barquin--the author of this review--I see his point, his initial gut reaction.  However, I believe if he stops making a comparison to the game, he'll permit himself the immersion into this story, not the one he thinks the creators should be telling. 

I think it all comes down to what you want out of this show. If you want it to reflect the game it's inevitable to view deviations negatively. Or if you're just in it for "cool zombie shit" I can see where an episode like this would disappoint.

I came to this show hoping it would be akin to Frank Darabont's early vision for The Walking Dead - an insightful character study with interesting characters. I found the first two episodes lacking in this regard but this episode is exactly what I'd hoped to find in this show. But that's just me. I get that others want something else out of it. 

There was an episode of the SyFy series "The Magicians" called A Life in the Day that this episode reminded me of. It was a similarly haunting and poignant story of two characters that spanned a lifetime together in under an hour.

[possibilities]

I didn't even notice the swearing. That's how normal it is, to people I know. I think this is just one of those things that varies by community IRL.

[Starchild]

22 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I came to this show hoping it would be akin to Frank Darabont's early vision for The Walking Dead - an insightful character study with interesting characters. I found the first two episodes lacking in this regard but this episode is exactly what I'd hoped to find in this show. But that's just me.

Not just you.

[go4luca]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:50 PM, paramitch said:

Everything painful and beautiful in that one shot.

Incredible post you made (the full version).

For me, in the one line above, you encapsulated why this episode worked:

Everything painful and beautiful in one episode.

Kudos to you.

[Ilovepie]

16 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Watching the show, part of what was heartbreaking to me was thinking Bill had himself convinced he was not (socially) allowed to be himself, mainly due to his political leanings. One day maybe we'll all just leave each other alone and just quit worrying about it

I totally agree with this about Bill. I do wonder if he would ever have had the courage to act on his feelings though if it was not the end of the world. I am glad Frank fell into his pit. ;-p

[watch2much]

no nothing of the game.  at first wondered why the episode was focusing on these men, then totally hooked.  beautifully told love story.

[Capricasix]

Bella Ramsey’s American accent is very natural. If I didn’t know she was English, I’d have thought she was born and raised in the US (or Canada).

[monakane]

What a beautiful episode!  Kudos to Nick Offerman.  I thought they would be going with the usual Nick Offerman character in the beginning and then they flipped the script.  I can't remember the last time I cried so much during a TV episode.  I'm not familiar with the game, so this is all new to me.  This show is everything that I hoped The Walking Dead would be.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Another review that I agree with. Of course, many of the replies to the review do not agree with its take on the episode, but they also don't offer anything in the way of a structured argument as to why this episode should not be critiqued and found wanting. Mostly people accuse him of being talentless, LOL.

I don't think the episode is beyond criticism, but some of this article's arguments strike me as pretty out there:

"The show makes a lot of metaphorical hay of the notion that Frank is getting Bill to open up by way of growing strawberries; as soon as the episode depicted them bickering over the patch Frank has gotten by trading for seeds, I let out a groan anticipating the moment where said strawberries would be dramatically shared as a symbol of emotional and actual growth."

He's making it sound like this was some belabored setup that stretched out Bill and Frank's argument even though we knew it would end with a dramatic reconciliation. But in fact he's describing a single scene in which the setup and the payoff come mere seconds apart! Really, dude, you groaned in anticipation of something that would've already happened by the time you finished groaning? And that didn't cause you to rethink whether the groan was appropriate?

I'm not saying this guy's dislike was disingenuous, but I do think his analysis is muddled enough that it's hard to figure out what his objections actually were. He mostly just seems upset that the episode was "saccharine," which, fine, but why exactly is it bad to counterpoint the main character's darkness instead of echoing it?

That's actually why I really appreciated the episode. It's so common to have a "dark mirror" character who illustrates what the main character might become if he doesn't change his ways. (GAME SPOILERS)

Spoiler

That's the role Bill plays in the game, in fact, the guy who shut himself off and loses the love of his life and becomes a loveless jerk living in a town all by himself.

I think it actually is a "more interesting path," in the reviewer's words, to make Bill a bright mirror of Joel instead, a character who shows him all the things he could have if only he changed his ways.

(It's why Ted Chaough was one of my favorite supporting characters on Mad Men, the Man Who Can Fly to Don Draper's Man Who Falls.)

Edited February 1, 2023 by Dev F
ACTUALLY does not need full caps

[cardigirl]

3 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I don't think the episode is beyond criticism, but some of this article's arguments strike me as pretty out there:

"The show makes a lot of metaphorical hay of the notion that Frank is getting Bill to open up by way of growing strawberries; as soon as the episode depicted them bickering over the patch Frank has gotten by trading for seeds, I let out a groan anticipating the moment where said strawberries would be dramatically shared as a symbol of emotional and actual growth."

He's making it sound like this was some belabored setup that stretched out Bill and Frank's argument even though we knew it would end with a dramatic reconciliation. But in fact he's describing a single scene in which the setup and the payoff come mere seconds apart! Really, dude, you groaned in anticipation of something that would've already happened by the time you finished groaning? And that didn't cause you to rethink whether the groan was appropriate?

I'm not saying this guy's dislike was disingenuous, but I do think his analysis is muddled enough that it's hard to figure out what his objections actually were. He mostly just seems upset that the episode was "saccharine," which, fine, but why exactly is it bad to counterpoint the main character's darkness instead of echoing it?

That's ACTUALLY why I really appreciated the episode. It's so common to have a "dark mirror" character who illustrates what the main character might become if he doesn't change his ways. (GAME SPOILERS)

  Reveal spoiler

That's the role Bill plays in the game, in fact, the guy who shut himself off and loses the love of his life and becomes a loveless jerk living in a town all by himself.

I think it actually is a "more interesting path," in the reviewer's words, to make Bill a bright mirror of Joel instead, a character who shows him all the things he could have if only he changed his ways.

(It's why Ted Chaough was one of my favorite supporting characters on Mad Men, the Man Who Can Fly to Don Draper's Man Who Falls.)

I haven't played the game, so my objections are not based on what differences were made to Bill's character, but more to the somewhat cliched path the show took to tell Bill and Frank's story.  

And the strawberry scene, for whatever reason, did not make me cry. (Why yes, I am stone-hearted. 🥶) 

I enjoyed watching the prepper prep for living isolated in a world that was disintegrating around him, but then he "found" someone who could maybe alleviate the loneliness and it didn't ring true (to me) and I wasn't as invested as some others seem to have been. Maybe if someone other than Murray Bartlett had played the role I would have been more invested. 

Maybe it was the "10 miles west of Boston" scenery that threw me out of the episode, but I disagree that this was the greatest love story ever told. It was fine, and I'm sure it will get emmy nominations for both actors, but I think the first episode of this series is still my fav. 

[Danny Franks]

I'm getting less sure that I like the way they're writing Ellie in this. Precocious is fine, but sneaking into an unknown cellar without telling Joel is a bit much. She shouldn't be that dumb. I get her interest in what the Infected are, but that was a weird moment.

I really like all the remnants of the old world, as horrifying as they may be - old arcade machines, crashed planes, massacre sites.

Seeing Bill set up his town and his traps was fun. Talk about doomsday prepping. 

The story of Bill and Frank was really sweet and heartfelt. The idea that these two guys found each other and were able to build something together, while everything else fell apart. Of course it had to end tragically, because everything does in this world, but at least they were happy. And man, Nick Offerman is a good actor. 

The extrovert vs introvert, "we're going to have friends over" taken to the Nth degree was hilarious. I've had those conversations.

The end of their story genuinely made me tear up. Although I thought the note to Joel was a little heavy handed.

I loved Ellie's excitement over being in a car. "It's like a spaceship!" Aw.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Danny Franks

[paramitch]

 

So I watched this two more times, because it is so damn beautiful, and caught a few other little details that I loved:

Bill watching the Infected die in his booby trap on the monitor while he eats dinner still cracks me up. Like, that's his nightly entertainment? It's not exactly Shakespeare.

I love watching Frank try to charm Bill -- you can see pretty quickly that he is frantic to stay there.

Frank's comment "It's my favorite," about "Long, Long Time." It just adds so much richness to Bill's reaction (and to the nuance that Bill later kept it as the first song on his tape in the truck).

Bill: "Not this song, not this song," when Frank butchers it. The song means too much to him.

It hits me really hard on rewatch that Tess and Joel are so different in their visit here -- Tess is so warm and kind, instantly bonding with Frank, and Joel looks so young. It's miles away from who we see them eventually become.

Frank is the one who thinks of the music codes (70s, 80s, etc.) and suggests it to Tess! I think others have commented on this, but it was so cool to realize.

I love that after Joel warns Bill about the inadequacy of their barricade, the next shot is of the LITERAL PILED-UP CARS Bill has now set up.

Bill giggling with delight at the taste of the strawberry. Oh, man, I love it so much.

The change in Nick Offerman's voice when he is sitting on the couch, trying to persuade Frank to change his mind on the last day, is just devastating. It's so real, the drop in his voice due to deep emotion and grief.

Frank and Bill marry themselves sitting before the piano where their relationship started. 😭

When Bill serves Frank the last dinner, he (just as he did years ago) carefully turns the plate to present it to Frank. I loved this little detail so much -- that it is the same meal, the same little gesture, the same wine pairing. (sniffle)

I know it's probably dumb, but I'm glad the wine that kills them isn't the same wine they fell in love to (which they drank with the final dinner).

Bartlett is so, so good as Frank in that final dinner. You can see him processing as the wine comes out, "Wow, this is it." He's not stoic, you can see him being perhaps a little nervous (but still resolved). He is truly just as good as Offerman here (who is splendid).

The final shot of Ellie and Joel driving away, as seen through Frank and Bill's window, just gets me every time. It's like Bill and Frank are present in spirit somehow, on the journey with them.

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There was an episode of the SyFy series "The Magicians" called A Life in the Day that this episode reminded me of. It was a similarly haunting and poignant story of two characters that spanned a lifetime together in under an hour.

Oh, it really does evoke that episode! One of my favorite episodes of television, ever (do not get me started on how the end of Season 4 was a betrayal of that).

7 hours ago, go4luca said:

Incredible post you made (the full version).

For me, in the one line above, you encapsulated why this episode worked:

Everything painful and beautiful in one episode.

Kudos to you.

Thank you so much for that -- I'm so glad my incoherent  (and slightly weepy) babbling resonated with you. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by paramitch
Added later replies to my wall of text. :D

[Lady Whistleup]

This episode was beautiful from start to finish. I loved the use of the song "This Bitter Earth."