S01.E03: The Way Out

[WatchrTina]

Here's another small moment I loved -- when Jamie enters the Black Kirk he removes his "bonnet" because of course he was raised right and knows that you take off your hat in church, even if the church is a ruin with no roof.

[ganesh]

This show is so *otherworldly.* It just draws me in. 

 

I actually just enjoyed the daily activities and interactions with everything that Claire had. I guess we're stuck with the v/o. I don't think they really need that many in an episode. 

 

I was also surprised there's a song about the stones. Which begs the question whether there's some kind of legend to it. 

[magdalene]

I love the knitted scarf Claire wore in this episode, it's very beautiful in an understated way.

 

Gaillis is so fascinating to me. There is something off about her. It's like she is being helpful to Claire and that poor boy in trouble not out a sense of goodness but because it seems to amuse her somehow. She certainly knows how to manipulate that fool husband of hers - what a mismatched pair they make.  I agree with the notion that she knows about Claire.

[Glaze Crazy]

The quick scene when Claire is walking up the cobbled street to the Baxter's door facinates me.  It's such a tight shot that only shows the side of the houses, the cobbles and a bit of the background.  If it's not a set I would love to see the wider shot of the town location.  It probably has a news agent shop, a fish and chips and an Indian take-away just across the street.

[Nidratime]

I just watched episode three, since I was out of town over the weekend and couldn't watch it last night. I'm going to put the next bit in spoiler tags because who knows what my mind, from long ago, remembers of the books I read way back....

 

What immediately struck me at the very end ... is it possible that the minstrel singing his tale is *actually* singing about Claire? it just seemed so "prophetic."

 

By the way, that priest didn't look so healthy either.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Nidratime

[Petunia846]

Here's another small moment I loved -- when Jamie enters the Black Kirk he removes his "bonnet" because of course he was raised right and knows that you take off your hat in church, even if the church is a ruin with no roof.

I also really loved Sam's delivery of the line about how he was well educated and raised right, but he's still a Highlander and he's not going to insult the saint in his very own church. Just the build up, and then he delivers the punch line, so to speak, crosses himself and walks away. It's so Jamie, it makes me laugh. I also loved how he told Claire they would mostly just "caper about" when they'd go up there. I really need to find a way to work "caper about" into conversation this week.

[nara]

Two words: Daario Naharis.

OMG That was exactly what I was thinking!  I wouldn't mind that character if Sam was playing him!

 

My only complaint is that it seems pretty clear that there's more going on between her and Jamie than just chumminess.  Certainly I think she should be able to tell that Jamie is down for more.  Even at this point, Claire's "let me check your bandages" is becoming code for him to get his kit off while they stare longingly at each other.  A little bit of sexual tension is fine, but at some point, Claire comes across as a bit disingenuous and fickle. 

 

I think it's okay.  In real life, I've seen that too--married women who are convinced they are just being friendly when they are really flirting.  They are not bad people, but just don't know how to "turn it off."  She is trying to convince herself that she only misses her husband.  Certainly, she loves and misses her husband, but trying to deny her attraction to Jamie is going to make it all the more explosive when she gives in.

 

I am eagerly awaiting the posting of Ron's podcast for 103 so in the meantime I'll just pose this question.  Why did Jamie walk her back to Davy Beaton's surgery?  I don't think Claire sleeps down there.  It would be odd and dangerous to have a woman housed by herself in a remote corner of the castle (which is what the surgery feels like) and besides, we see her in what appears to be a regular bedroom in the first scene.  I'm not castle expert but I'm guessing bedrooms (at least the nice ones) are typically above stairs while working areas (like the surgery) are "below-stairs".  I got the distinct impression that one walked down to get to the surgery.  So . . . what is the point of Jamie walking Claire there?  How is she any better off being drunk down there than she was being tipsy in the great hall?  

 

I wondered about that too.  Claire definitely does not sleep there.  She sleeps in the same room as she did that first day/night.  My assumption is that he took her somewhere he could hang out for a bit without creating a lot of gossip.  But then, things were getting too steamy (I loved Jamie's discomfort when she was opening his shirt!) and he felt it best to beat a hasty retreat.

ITA

I can't wait to see him and Claire kiss. The actor is so hot and I can't believe GOT passed on using him.

I think things happen for a reason.  If he had won a GOT role, he would have gotten a lot less screen time (due to the huge cast and characters constantly being killed off) and would have missed out on the perfect role for him.  I believe that there are big things ahead for this actor, and this show gives him more opportunities to demonstrate what he can do.

 

Okay, now for my comments.  Loved, loved, loved this episode. 

 

Lots of great scenes between with Claire and Jaime.  Has anyone made a compilation of all their scenes together?  I am normally not someone who wants to see graphic love scenes on tv, but I cannot wait for them to finally get together!  I have not read the books, but I'm assuming that happens!  The chemistry between these two actors is fantastic and so crucial to the series.

 

Re:  Jamie/Laoghaire kiss.  I didn't quite understand the look that Jamie gave Claire when he saw her watching them.  Was it amusement?  Given that he was clearly besotted with her during the first concert and the sexy scene in the surgery, I would have expected to see more of a guilty look on his face (or at least embarrassment) when she caught him kissing Laoghaire.  He was basically taking advantage of a young girl with a huge crush for sexual relief, and I would have expected him to feel a little bad when caught.  During the dinner scene, he did  look like he felt bad about it, but that look that he gave Claire during the kiss threw me a bit.  I thought that perhaps he was trying to make Claire jealous, but I would like other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

2nd Concert scene.  I loved that Jamie saved a seat for Claire--that's what would happen in real life.  I did think it a little odd that he held her hand and led her to the seat.  Wouldn't that signal something to everyone else in the room?  Anyway, I found myself hoping he was still holding her hand when they were sitting down.  I swear, this series has turned me into a 14 year old girl!

 

Geillis Duncan -- I really that she is becoming increasingly suspicious, even while others are trusting Claire more.  The actress is perfect.

 

I didn't care so much for the "witch" scene between Claire and Mrs. Fitz because I thought it was designed to be something they could put in previews to freak us out.  Although I think it's important to understand why Claire cannot trust anyone with her secret, I thought the witch discussion could have been more subtle than a daydream.

[Pestilentia]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_ursinum

Similarity to poisonous plants

The leaves of A. ursinum are easily mistaken for Lily of the Valley, sometimes also those of Colchicum autumnale and Arum maculatum.

No one ever said Lily of the valley did not resemble wood garlic.

 

The issue is with the PROP they used.

The leaf shape was incorrect.

The veining was incorrect.

The texture was incorrect.

The growth habit was incorrect.

The conditions were incorrect.

 

The show gave us a thick, heavily arcurate veined leaf growing on a woody vine up an abandoned stone wall in blazing sun.

Lily of the valley is a thin, leafy shoot with parallel veins that spreads via rhizomes underground.

It is a woodland plant that grows on the ground in shaded and partially sunny conditions.

It is never going to grow up a stone wall.

 

Watch it again and pause at 00:45 where Claire fingers the leaf-

 

Then tell me that leaf looks anything like this leaf- and pay attention to the veining.

The prop leaf above is arcurate, the plant below has parallel veins.

 

Could they have meant a different species?

No, Claire specifically mentioned Convallaria majalis.

 

I know I am being incredibly pedantic about this(!) but the show values authenticity and this just took me out of the show, that's all.

[Nidratime]

More thoughts after watching late last night.... What was Murtaugh up to, talking to Claire after the scene where Claire and Jamie were "playing footsie" under the table? Why would *he* emphasize to Claire (a more mature woman than Laoghaire) that Jamie needs a woman beside him rather than a girl and that Laoghaire would always be a girl, even at 50. He seems to be suggesting that Claire should get together with Jamie. Why would he want that? She's English, an outsider, and under suspicion. Why would that make her an attractive match in Murtaugh's eyes?

[Haleth]

Blue bonnet, I agree with your posts.  I think as a nurse Claire had learned to banter and be sassy with recovering soldiers, but never felt anything beyond the superficial.  I wonder how many of her patients fell in love with her.  She has taken on this attitude with Jamie too. The problem is that she is truly attracted to him and the playfulness will quickly evolve into something else.  The looks between them are smoldering.  She can think about Frank all she wants but unless she can remove herself from the situation her thoughts will turn more and more toward Jamie.

 

Laoghaire really isn't that bright, is she?  Last week she was facing a beating for unmaidenly behavior and this week she's snogging Jamie in the pantry.  He's just not that into you, girl!  (And honestly, could her name have any more useless letters?)

Edited August 25, 2014 by Haleth

[HistoryGirl]

More thoughts after watching late last night.... What was Murtaugh up to, talking to Claire after the scene where Claire and Jamie were "playing footsie" under the table? Why would *he* emphasize to Claire (a more mature woman than Laoghaire) that Jamie needs a woman beside him rather than a girl and that Laoghaire would always be a girl, even at 50. He seems to be suggesting that Claire should get together with Jamie. Why would he want that? She's English, an outsider, and under suspicion. Why would that make her an attractive match in Murtaugh's eyes?

 

Putting my answer in spoiler tags, because while I haven't read the books I've been cruising the wiki site and the book thread here.  This is my understanding/inference about that scene. 

Jamie is a wanted man and thus comes with trouble.  He can't (shouldn't?) marry someone who is unable to live a life on the run.  Laoghaire is not that person. She's a hopeless romantic, supposedly.  More inclined to marry a silly boy and live a life with no problems. With Jaime comes problems, thus he needs a woman to keep him in line. 

[WatchrTina]

 

What was Murtaugh up to, talking to Claire after the scene where Claire and Jamie were "playing footsie" under the table? Why would *he* emphasize to Claire (a more mature woman than Laoghaire) that Jamie needs a woman beside him rather than a girl

That conversation does raise some interesting questions that can't be addressed here (book-vs-TV talk) but I think I can say that in the book it is Auld Alec (Master of Horses -- the bald guy at the stables) who delivers that line, not Murtaugh, and I think in both cases the motivation is the same.  They ken Jamie well.  They care about him and want what's best for him.   And while they are sorry for the situation that he's in -- he can't really marry anyone while he's living on the run from the law -- they also ken verra weel (even if Claire doesn't) that she's the one he really fancies.  

 

Besides, the real message that Murtaugh is delivering is "Don't tease him."  That's a completely understandable sentiment coming from someone who is obviously Jamie's closest friend at the castle.

Edited August 25, 2014 by WatchrTina

[attica]

I fully endorse the casting of Tim McInerney as the priest. He's such a delicious baddie. (Didn't he used to do silly sitcoms? Good career change!)

[seaELare]

The quick scene when Claire is walking up the cobbled street to the Baxter's door facinates me.  It's such a tight shot that only shows the side of the houses, the cobbles and a bit of the background.  If it's not a set I would love to see the wider shot of the town location.  It probably has a news agent shop, a fish and chips and an Indian take-away just across the street.

 

This scene, as well at Geillis' house, is located in Culross, Fife.   And suprisingly this little village looks unchanged from 1743.  

 

http://www.nts.org.uk/property/royal-burgh-of-culross/

 

If you do a google image search of "outlander Culross" you'll see photos taken during filming - not spoilery. 

[Sonja]

It seems as if stubbornness in a woman must be a very attractive trait.  Frank loved the stubbornness and Jamie seems amused by it as well.

 

Jamie and Claire make a good team.  I just love everything about them.

 

Finally, I thought that it was adorable that Jamie told Claire that he almost reinjured his hand while waving to her at the very end.  "Over here.  Didn't you see me waving?"  He's so smitten with her.

Ha, there's still hope for me then ;-P

 

That's the interesting thing about Jamie, he's got more dimensions than the average TV character. On one hand, he's an educated man, stands up for his sister and Laoghaire (even though he doesn't really know her), gets Claire out of situations like with Geillis or being drunk in hall, talks about his past as if there was nothing much to being flogged and outlawed and then he's this little kid again.

 

- The scene in the ruins of the Kirk, on the other hand, is not in the book (unless my memory is faulty) and yet I thought it was an excellent addition.  It gave Claire an opportunity to show off her diagnostic skills, we learned some important information about Jamie (he's an educated man) and it was just flat-out gorgeous scenery.  I can't wait to hear Ron's pod-cast to find out where it was filmed.

 

 - If we're going to have a man's bare ass in the show there are several I'd rather see than Colum's.

 

I think it substitues for another scene in the book, but I thought it was very well done.  And really nicely shot. The tourism board must have increased server capacity after that one (again).

 

What, does his arse offend you? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I loved the intro with Frank and Claire at the train station.  Not only did it give us our only glimpse of Tobias Menzies for the night, but I love WW II movies. 

That scene didn't really endear Frank to me to be honest. Of course he doesn't want his wife to go off to the front lines, but if she doesn't go, someone else's wife has to. It's what we call Floriani-principle where I'm from ('Holy St. Florian, spare my house, burn others down').

 

I'm pretty sure Germany was a place in the 1500s (Martin Luther and all that Reformation stuff went on circa 1517). Not to get too heavy into the history, but as far back as Julius Caesar, it was called Germania (to distinguish it from Gaul). And Luther translated the Bible into German, which was a legitimate language.

Thank you! I'm Austrian and I really scratched my head about that one. Also, doesn't Jamie

allegedly speak German in the books?

More thoughts after watching late last night.... What was Murtaugh up to, talking to Claire after the scene where Claire and Jamie were "playing footsie" under the table?

I think he's just protective of Jamie and doesn't want him to end up with a girl he can't count on when the manure hits the Scottish breeze. Not unreasonable considering there's a price on his head.

 

I fully endorse the casting of Tim McInerney as the priest. He's such a delicious baddie. (Didn't he used to do silly sitcoms? Good career change!)

 

I haven't seen him as anything but a baddie in the last years. It really would have been a surprise if he ended up playing someone on the other side of the spectrum for a change. He'll always be Darling to me...

[SonofaBiscuit]

My only complaint is that it seems pretty clear that there's more going on between her and Jamie than just chumminess.  Certainly I think she should be able to tell that Jamie is down for more.  Even at this point, Claire's "let me check your bandages" is becoming code for him to get his kit off while they stare longingly at each other.  A little bit of sexual tension is fine, but at some point, Claire comes across as a bit disingenuous and fickle. 

 

 

I definitely think that Claire should be more careful if she doesn't mean to give Jamie the wrong impression.  I mean, as a nurse, she dealt with men day in and day out.  Does she think it's really appropriate to undo a man's collar while making eyes at him?  She wasn't worried about how he might interpret that very intimate gesture?  Jamie had two working hands...she could have just asked him to please take down his collar so she could look at the bullet wound.  She finally caught on there at the end when she looked up and saw the intense desire in his face, and then she was like "Oh, you can take the bandages off in a few days" and Jamie replies, "As you wish"...er I mean "As you say."   

 

I also thought that teasing Jamie about Laoghaire in front of other people was sort of mean.  Claire just witnessed Jamie getting his ass beat because Laoghaire had been accused of loose behavior.  Now Laoghaire is actually committing loose behavior with Jamie (well, I'm guessing her father would consider it loose behavior, even if I don't think a kiss is that bad).  What does Claire think will happen if someone tells Laoghaire's father?  Murtagh seemed to catch on quickly that they weren't actually talking about horses.  I don't think that he would say anything but others might have overheard?   

[annlaw78]

 

I also really loved Sam's delivery of the line about how he was well educated and raised right, but he's still a Highlander and he's not going to insult the saint in his very own church.

I think the "nick" they are all referring to is not Jolly Old Saint Nicholas, but the devil.  "The Old Nick" is a term for the devil.  So he wasn't going to mock the devil at the black kirk, even if doesn't really believe in the curse, because, well, local superstition and all. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by annlaw78

[thingamajig]

 

 

I know I am being incredibly pedantic about this(!) but the show values authenticity and this just took me out of the show, that's all.

I know only a little about plants, so when I saw the one she was talking about, the shiny, waxy-looking leaves said "poisonous" to me.  Which is probably what they were aiming for.  But I totally get what you mean about it taking you out of the story.  I was just reading a similar incredibly pedantic :) discussion on Ravelry about the knitwear on the show.  It's all lovely but highly anachronistic.  I'm sure to most people it evokes a feeling of old-fashioned and/or rustic, but if you know much about knitting or historical costumes it's a jolt to see chunky cowls, etc. on an 18th-century character.  I think the show sometimes chooses to evoke a certain mood rather than be completely accurate, and that's fine except when it's within your area of expertise and is a distraction instead of an enhancement.

[NoNeinNyet]

But I totally get what you mean about it taking you out of the story.  I was just reading a similar incredibly pedantic :) discussion on Ravelry about the knitwear on the show.  It's all lovely but highly anachronistic.  I'm sure to most people it evokes a feeling of old-fashioned and/or rustic, but if you know much about knitting or historical costumes it's a jolt to see chunky cowls, etc. on an 18th-century character.  I think the show sometimes chooses to evoke a certain mood rather than be completely accurate, and that's fine except when it's within your area of expertise and is a distraction instead of an enhancement.

 

I'm not an expert in historical dress but my knitting background is enough to know that the chunky knits just read WRONG to me. I do know that Claire's arm warmers are pretty accurate, though. I should probably get back into the Outlander group on Ravelry now that we have the show. I poked around in it when I first joined (seven years ago) but then got sucked into other groups.

[CatMomma]

I know absolutely nothing about plants and even I knew that wasn't Lily of the Valley.  Anyone who watched Breaking Bad knows very well what it looks like, and that wasn't it.   I can't figure out why they made the choice, since anyone can purchase Lily of the Valley at a nursery.  It's not like it is a hard plant to find.  Maybe they just chose a plant already there and thought, "It has big leaves.  Eh, that'll do."

[Constantinople]

Those were some interesting red shoes that Geillis was sporting.  I'm not sure what to think about her.  I got a bad vibe when she was super curious about learning of Claire's upbringing.  Are you a spy, Geillis??  I'm glad that Jamie caught on quickly and devised an excuse to get Claire out of there.

 

Geillis is the Wicked Witch of the East

Claire is Dorothy.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, the Lily of the Valley thing was a little weird. I mean, that was NOT Lily of the Valley. And its not like its even an obscure plant that no one knows about.

 

BUT if that's my biggest gripe in an episode, than its still doing something right! I will probably think more about what exactly went down in this episode, but my favorite scenes were the flashbacks to her leaving Frank at the train station, and then the end, where Jamie was narrating the song that sounds eerily like her own adventure. MORE time travel maybe? At some point, will Claire go even farther in the past? 

 

I am in a real bind here. I'm somehow Team Frank/Claire AND Team Jamie/Claire. What shall I do?

[CatMomma]

Yeah, the Lily of the Valley thing was a little weird. I mean, that was NOT Lily of the Valley. And its not like its even an obscure plant that no one knows about.

 

BUT if that's my biggest gripe in an episode, than its still doing something right! I will probably think more about what exactly went down in this episode, but my favorite scenes were the flashbacks to her leaving Frank at the train station, and then the end, where Jamie was narrating the song that sounds eerily like her own adventure. MORE time travel maybe? At some point, will Claire go even farther in the past? 

 

I am in a real bind here. I'm somehow Team Frank/Claire AND Team Jamie/Claire. What shall I do?

I really like Frank.  I haven't read the books, but from what I understand, the showrunners have fleshed out his character more.  If true, they have done a great job.  Frank only makes an appearance a few minutes each episode, yet the scenes between him and Claire are powerful. I don't think she is oblivious to Jamie, but I get the feeling it's more of a physical attraction. With Frank, I can see that she loves him.  If Claire and Jamie end up together, it feels like it was earned, because Claire clearly loves Frank.

[ganesh]

Frank only makes an appearance a few minutes each episode, yet the scenes between him and Claire are powerful.

 

It's a credit to the actor too. He's been in tons of stuff and you need that kind of "professional actor" who can be in a 45 second scene and really make it count. 

[Glaze Crazy]

This scene, as well at Geillis' house, is located in Culross, Fife.   And suprisingly this little village looks unchanged from 1743.  

Thanks seaELare.  I hadn't looked for filming sites.  There are so many little pockets of old architecture side by side (or above) with modern businesses in the ground floor spaces, I just figured they found some place they could make work.  I will put Culross on my to-see list for a future Scotland visit.  Some of my ancestors are from the Fife area.

I am in a real bind here. I'm somehow Team Frank/Claire AND Team Jamie/Claire. What shall I do?

Join the crowd?  LOL.  I do really like the scenes of Frank interspersed with Claire's experiences in the past.  The little insights he's given her about history and showing how much he did love her helps to keep him a sympathetic character while his ancestor continues to be a villian.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I just can't like Frank.  His love of history is a deal breaker for me :)  I know that all of those fun historical facts that he has spouted over the years are probably coming in really handy for Claire, what with being transported to the past and all, but my gosh that sounds like torture.  "Honey, want to hear something really interesting about this rock here?"  No...no, I really don't!

 

The problem here is that I don't want Claire to get back to Frank.  From the first episode, I got the impression that they are sort of strangers...I think that we were told that they had seen each other five times in five years or something similar.  I also got the impression that Frank had been unfaithful during that time.  No way would I want to live in the 1700s, but as a viewer, I'm finding it very very difficult not to root for Jamie over Frank.      

[cpansy]

I have to correct one thing - Jamie Fraser is NO cad. No how, no way, nowhere.

I am actually watching this show with my husband, and got an enormous kick out of watching his face when Claire and Jamie went back to her surgery. I could see my husband was assuming J&C would have an enormous release of sexual tension, and when not only that didn't happen, but Jamie ended up kissing Laoghaire (sorry, I'm a book reader and cannot stand her - still refer to her as "Log Hair" even though I know how to pronounce it properly) it was wonderful to see his resulting confusion. This is one of many things I think are fun for all the viewers, whether or not you are a book reader.

I do like how slowly the show is unfolding. I feel we learn more and more with each episode, just as Claire does. She still has not realized fully how precarious her position is in the Castle and with the McKenzies, since she is such an independent woman. She also has no intention of staying in the past one second longer than she has to. All she wants is to get back to the stones and back to her own time. The only thing that is remotely close to a friend she has is Jamie. He treats her more like her own person and less like a concept than anyone else at Castle Leoch.

I have to say that I love the books so much that I was absolutely dreading this adaptation - and even dreading it more because it was going to be on Starz. My expectations were so low that each time I see an episode I end up just incredibly pleased with the acting, costumes, pacing and the little nuances that I see.

The only thing I hate right now is the idea of a split season. I wish we could have all our episodes at once...

[nara]

More thoughts after watching late last night.... What was Murtaugh up to, talking to Claire after the scene where Claire and Jamie were "playing footsie" under the table? Why would *he* emphasize to Claire (a more mature woman than Laoghaire) that Jamie needs a woman beside him rather than a girl and that Laoghaire would always be a girl, even at 50. He seems to be suggesting that Claire should get together with Jamie. Why would he want that? She's English, an outsider, and under suspicion. Why would that make her an attractive match in Murtaugh's eyes?

 

My impression was that Murtaugh was actually calling out Claire for her own inappropriate behavior with Jamie as well as protecting Jamie from an unwanted marriage.  Anyone who knows Jamie would likely be able to tell that he's smitten with Claire.  And Murtaugh may feel that she's leading him on (visiting him in stable, calling him over to sit with her at the concert, etc.) while still teasing him about another girl.  Murtaugh mentions that Jamie needs/wants a grown woman and then pointedly says that Claire is a grown woman.  He's pointing out that she knows Jamie is crushing on her and she should not toy with him.

 

Blue bonnet, I agree with your posts.  I think as a nurse Claire had learned to banter and be sassy with recovering soldiers, but never felt anything beyond the superficial.  I wonder how many of her patients fell in love with her.  She has taken on this attitude with Jamie too. The problem is that she is truly attracted to him and the playfulness will quickly evolve into something else.  The looks between them are smoldering.  She can think about Frank all she wants but unless she can remove herself from the situation her thoughts will turn more and more toward Jamie.

In the first episode, Frank seems to sense that men fall for Claire quite a bit.  He says something about that when he sees the mysterious man gazing up at her in her window.  He also didn't seem to think it unlikely that she would encourage men without realizing it and even potentially have an affair.  He seems to accept that as a part of who she is and that doesn't affect his love for her.  Perhaps Frank understands her better than she does herself.

[Petunia846]

I definitely think that Claire should be more careful if she doesn't mean to give Jamie the wrong impression.  I mean, as a nurse, she dealt with men day in and day out.  Does she think it's really appropriate to undo a man's collar while making eyes at him?  She wasn't worried about how he might interpret that very intimate gesture?  Jamie had two working hands...she could have just asked him to please take down his collar so she could look at the bullet wound.  She finally caught on there at the end when she looked up and saw the intense desire in his face, and then she was like "Oh, you can take the bandages off in a few days" and Jamie replies, "As you wish"...er I mean "As you say."  

Well she was also pretty drunk at that time, so perhaps she was not able to use her best judgement there.

 

Yeah, the Lily of the Valley thing was a little weird. I mean, that was NOT Lily of the Valley. And its not like its even an obscure plant that no one knows about.

 

BUT if that's my biggest gripe in an episode, than its still doing something right!

Amen to that!

 

I am in a real bind here. I'm somehow Team Frank/Claire AND Team Jamie/Claire. What shall I do?

Keep watching!

[mollybygolly]

I just listened to Ron's podcast on this episode.  They apparently have botanists on staff and great lengths were gone to in order to find the right kind of plants that could be mistaken for each other and which (at least the lily of the valley) could poison someone.  I have also read elsewhere (facebook perhaps) that while some folks think the plant looked nothing like Lily of the Valley others thought it looked quite similar.  So perhaps what is called Lily of the Valley in Scotland is called something else here, which would account for some thinking the plant was incorrectly identified.

[MysticMoon]

I had the same reaction about the Lilly of the valley until I did some research. The plant they showed on Outlander is: Maianthemum dilatatum ( Wild Lily of the Valley) instead of the one we are familiar with: Convallaria majalis ( Lily of the Valley).

This post talks about it and there are pictures of it that look very similar to the one showed on Outlander .

 

https://namethatplant.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/a-hosta-imposter-and-other-relatives/

[ihartcoffee]

My impression was that Murtaugh was actually calling out Claire for her own inappropriate behavior with Jamie as well as protecting Jamie from an unwanted marriage.  Anyone who knows Jamie would likely be able to tell that he's smitten with Claire.  And Murtaugh may feel that she's leading him on (visiting him in stable, calling him over to sit with her at the concert, etc.) while still teasing him about another girl.  Murtaugh mentions that Jamie needs/wants a grown woman and then pointedly says that Claire is a grown woman.  He's pointing out that she knows Jamie is crushing on her and she should not toy with him.

 

In the first episode, Frank seems to sense that men fall for Claire quite a bit.  He says something about that when he sees the mysterious man gazing up at her in her window.  He also didn't seem to think it unlikely that she would encourage men without realizing it and even potentially have an affair.  He seems to accept that as a part of who she is and that doesn't affect his love for her.  Perhaps Frank understands her better than she does herself.

I love your analysis of these scenes. I can't wait to see him crush on Claire more!

[CatMomma]

I had the same reaction about the Lilly of the valley until I did some research. The plant they showed on Outlander is: Maianthemum dilatatum ( Wild Lily of the Valley) instead of the one we are familiar with: Convallaria majalis ( Lily of the Valley).

This post talks about it and there are pictures of it that look very similar to the one showed on Outlander .

 

https://namethatplant.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/a-hosta-imposter-and-other-relatives/

 

Okay, grrr!  I don't know why this is bothering me so much.  How is a 20th century urban woman supposed to recognize wild Lily of the Valley?  I appreciate the producers wanting to be authentic, but how the heck would she recognize such an obscure plant.  

 

Claire is entering Mary Sue territory for me. She's a stylish botanist/historian/nurse/miracle worker who men adore.

[mybabyaidan]

 

 

I have to correct one thing - Jamie Fraser is NO cad. No how, no way, nowhere.

 

I am the one that referred to him as that (I think I am the only one), in quotes....

I know he's not, I was just referring to what Claire might (does?) think about him at this point.

 

I am one that never really liked Frank either, but damned if Tobias doesn't make me rethink it. 

 

ETA: spoiler tagged it just in case.

Edited August 26, 2014 by mybabyaidan

[rozen]

I dunno, I can envision Claire running the same game as a nurse during the war and it being both benign and hilarious. I'm sure there's been a number of injured soldiers she's helped save, who in turn fall in love with the rowdy nurse. And I can totally see her gently shoving them towards her fellow nurses who are single and then giving everyone shit about it. Being flirty and adorable is probably a good plan when you regularly have to tell some random dude you're about to chop his leg off. She's probably entertained plenty of young soldiers complaining that a dressing needs to be redone, or something equally ridiculous, which was fine when she was clearly a married woman. But then she realized that she's now masquerading as a widow and immediately backed off.

 

The teasing about young fillies felt a lot like "oh hur hur, I thought your love for me was true, and look at you gallivanting off with that blondie you pretended to have no interest in." It came off to me as very self-satisfied in her matchmaking skills, but not wanting Laoghaire to get beaten again. Sure, she's checked Jamie out, but girl is married, not dead.

 

Gillis is hilarious and a bamf. I loved her 'don't act like you don't want to interrogate her too' overture to Jamie with the booze. Come do sit down Claire, and tell us about the magical English land without corporeal punishment. Pretty sure England was pretty loose with the limb chopping in those days, way to blow your cover yet again. I wonder if Gillis is a time-traveler herself, she seemed to be pretty overtly spelling out that she is open to crazy ass explanations for things in all her discussions with Claire.

[Constantinople]

I just can't like Frank.  His love of history is a deal breaker for me :)  I know that all of those fun historical facts that he has spouted over the years are probably coming in really handy for Claire, what with being transported to the past and all, but my gosh that sounds like torture.  "Honey, want to hear something really interesting about this rock here?"  No...no, I really don't!

 

The problem here is that I don't want Claire to get back to Frank.  From the first episode, I got the impression that they are sort of strangers...I think that we were told that they had seen each other five times in five years or something similar.  I also got the impression that Frank had been unfaithful during that time.  No way would I want to live in the 1700s, but as a viewer, I'm finding it very very difficult not to root for Jamie over Frank.

Oh, sure.

Frank's the bad guy even though Claire abandoned him twice.

First to go off to war, even though Frank was able to find her a position in England. Then she leaves him to go gallivanting through 18th century Scotland. And don't even say that isn't Claire's fault.

Everyone knows when you watch a bunch of pagans dancing around a stone circle all night, you don't go back later in the day. And if for some reason you do, and both the sky and the background sound effects turn ominous, you don't touch anything. EVER.

So what did Claire do?

Exactly.

[CatMack]

Okay, grrr!  I don't know why this is bothering me so much.  How is a 20th century urban woman supposed to recognize wild Lily of the Valley?  I appreciate the producers wanting to be authentic, but how the heck would she recognize such an obscure plant.  

 

Claire is entering Mary Sue territory for me. She's a stylish botanist/historian/nurse/miracle worker who men adore.

 

Claire is not an urban woman.  As was stated in the pilot episode, Claire had a very unusual childhood, having been raised by her archeologist Uncle Lamb who took her along with him wherever he went.  She's been to many places in the world and lived in a lot of "primitive" conditions.  That's one of the reasons she's able to adapt to life in the 17th century fairly easily.  It's almost like instead of being a Mary Sue (a misogynistic term that has almost no meaning any more) she's a fully realized character with a backstory and education that informs her talents and abilities which she's able to use to adapt to her current surroundings in order to survive. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by CatMack

[ganesh]

Mary Sue and Jump the Shark are probably nearing retirement from pop culture. 

 

I don't have a problem with Claire's skills, since it was shown in a flashback clearly, and since it's a fair fanwank that she picked up some skills and knowledge as a field nurse in the war. 

 

And really, she's not a Mary Sue anyway because she totally fucked up the interrogation scene at the dinner, which Frank told us in the flashforwardback scene. And she called Dougal the father, when he wasn't; she clearly made a major blunder and put everyone off. This lead to her effective captivity at the castle and she's basically under constant guard now. Right when she traveled back, she almost got raped by Black Jack, she didn't fight him off and escape. 

 

I bitch and nit at shows as much as anyone else. I have high expectations and standards. This show is just flat out bringing it, you have to give them credit. 

[jah1986]

Another great episode.  One little moment I really liked was at Geillis' when she's really pushing Claire for information on her childhood. When Jaime comes in with Claire's coat and Geillis tells him Claire is about to tell about her past, he looks at Claire and she gives a very small, quick shake of her head and Jaime then says we have to get back or we'll miss dinner etc. It was quick and small but I thought it was a nice touch and shows how Jaime has her back.

[Pestilentia]

I had the same reaction about the Lilly of the valley until I did some research. The plant they showed on Outlander is: Maianthemum dilatatum ( Wild Lily of the Valley) instead of the one we are familiar with: Convallaria majalis ( Lily of the Valley).

This post talks about it and there are pictures of it that look very similar to the one showed on Outlander .

 

https://namethatplant.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/a-hosta-imposter-and-other-relatives/

In that case then you just have to wonder why on earth they wrote Claire's dialogue to specifically say Convallaria majalis.

That was where their error occurred.

I'm done, I promise  :)

 

I'm finding show Murtaugh to be far different than book Murtaugh in a very good way- he's far more understanding of human nature and subtext. I love how some of our auxillary characters that I never got into all that much are turning out to be quite interesting on their own.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Pestilentia

[rainmom]

I'm not quite understanding the footsie scene.  Looks like Jamie touched Claire's foot to try to get her to stop teasing - right?  Then did she kick him or something with her other foot that made him jump?  I've replayed it several times - hhmmrphh.

[SpiritSong]

Oh, sure.Frank's the bad guy even though Claire abandoned him twice.First to go off to war, even though Frank was able to find her a position in England. Then she leaves him to go gallivanting through 18th century Scotland. And don't even say that isn't Claire's fault.Everyone knows when you watch a bunch of pagans dancing around a stone circle all night, you don't go back later in the day. And if for some reason you do, and both the sky and the background sound effects turn ominous, you don't touch anything. EVER.So what did Claire do?Exactly.

Claire NEVER abandoned Frank. She did her duty for the war effort, which shows a lot of integrity; more than Frank who selfishly wanted to keep her near him. To hell with those wounded men at the front!

As for your second point about not touching the stones, I can only assume you're joking.

[CatMomma]

Claire is not an urban woman.  As was stated in the pilot episode, Claire had a very unusual childhood, having been raised by her archeologist Uncle Lamb who took her along with him wherever he went.  She's been to many places in the world and lived in a lot of "primitive" conditions.  That's one of the reasons she's able to adapt to life in the 17th century fairly easily.  It's almost like instead of being a Mary Sue (a misogynistic term that has almost no meaning any more) she's a fully realized character with a backstory and education that informs her talents and abilities which she's able to use to adapt to her current surroundings in order to survive. 

 

Please, there is a name for men as well, the Gary Stu, so I don't find it misogynistic.  Twisting it to mean anything other than a character who has flaws, but is still perceived as perfect, is to ignore that these types of characters actually exist. We can agree to disagree on the sexist usage.

 

Yes, I saw her back story and I still find it ridiculous.  Not only did she call the plant by the wrong name, but she knew what it was immediately.  She also knew the cure using 18th century methods.  So, yup, it bugged.

[ihartcoffee]

I'm not quite understanding the footsie scene.  Looks like Jamie touched Claire's foot to try to get her to stop teasing - right?  Then did she kick him or something with her other foot that made him jump?  I've replayed it several times - hhmmrphh.

I believe that is what occurred. I watch this show purely for entertainment and that scene cracked me up for some reason. I love the little interactions

[BizBuzz]

I believe that is what occurred. I watch this show purely for entertainment and that scene cracked me up for some reason. I love the little interactions

Same here. As far as I know, time travel isn't possible yet, so my thing is to just enjoy the story.

If given the chance, I would totally play footsie with Jamie. No matter the reason. I would fabricate a reason. ::giggle::

This is saying something in my life, cause of I am known as a man-disser.

[CatMack]

Please, there is a name for men as well, the Gary Stu, so I don't find it misogynistic.  Twisting it to mean anything other than a character who has flaws, but is still perceived as perfect, is to ignore that these types of characters actually exist. We can agree to disagree on the sexist usage.

 

Yes, I saw her back story and I still find it ridiculous.  Not only did she call the plant by the wrong name, but she knew what it was immediately.  She also knew the cure using 18th century methods.  So, yup, it bugged.

 

This isn't really the place for a philosophical discussion on the sexist origins of the term Mary Sue, much less the current usages, so we'll just agree to disagree on that.

 

But even if we're willing to use Mary Sue as a legitimate form of criticism, Claire does not fit.

 

She grew up without most modern conveniences or medicines.  She has medical training.  She has a botany hobby.  And between her archeologist uncle and her historian husband she's not a total stranger to what constituted medical care for the time.  All of these things explain why Claire can succeed as a healer in the 18th century.  She's not just magically good at it because she's a special snowflake who's good at everything, she worked fucking hard to gain her knowledge and skills, and the narrative explicitly stated that.  She's good at her chosen craft and has the knowledge to back it up.  That's not Mary Sue material, that's being an intelligent woman who knows her trade.  Now, I don't think it's too much of a book spoiler to say that when we're reading from her first person perspective we get a lot more of her trying to remember what plants and herbs can be used for what, what they would have been called back then, etc.  And that helps ensure there's no impression that she just magically knows everything instantly.  But seeing as people already bitch about there being too many voiceovers, I'm not sure what the show is supposed to do to illustrate that. 

 

And she didn't call the plant by the wrong name.  Lily of the Valley is poisonous, Wild Lily of the Valley is not, so it was pretty clearly meant to be regular old Lily of the Valley as Claire identified it.  It seems likely there was an error in production, probably a miscommunication between the botanists helping the writers and the people actually dressing the set (I haven't listened to the podcast - I assume the botanists are like the science advisers on sci-fi shows - they talk to the writers but aren't actually on set.  If they were directly involved with the plant selection and placement, then I guess they must be bad botanists).  Using the wrong type of Lily of the Valley seems like an easy mistake to make, especially if you're not aware there's more than one kind.  But a prop error does not constitute a character problem.

 

The show has very clearly stated why Claire has the skills and knowledge she has, and has also shown that she's not perfect, and not everyone instantly loves her and thinks she's wonderful (two hallmarks of the classic Mary Sue).  She's had one medical mystery she was able to solve and cure.  One.  That doesn't mean she's always going to have an answer, or be able to do anything about it even if she can figure an illness out (example, Column).  If she's getting called a Mary Sue because she managed to be right one time, god knows what a woman has to do to avoid that label. 

[supposebly]

I just watched the first three episodes because I saw a trailer and thought it looked beautiful. I have never heard of those books.

 

I hope there will be less focus on the romance because Jamie right now feels terribly like the common cliche of the romantic hero: the only handsome one around who still looks good with dirt on his face, enough of the bad boy to satisfy those types of fantasies but enough of a gentleman for those inclined.

 

Colum intrigues me and his brother and Geillis even more.

 

I don't know what to make of Clair, she doesn't seem much more than a bundle of cliches of the romantic heroine: competent, beautiful, but sassy.

Not quite enough layers not to annoy me. She seems a bit too perfect for me. And of course, she makes enemies with the evil town priest.

 

Poor Tobias Menzies, even here he ends up the bad guy. I hope they show more of his Frank. I liked how they showed their relationship. That felt much more real to me than the other one.

 

I'm terrible with plants, so I would have mixed them up too. But I also don't just eat any plant that's growing around some old walls.

Edited August 27, 2014 by supposebly

[WatchrTina]

I don't want to tread into book vs show talk but I think it's noteworthy that Book!Claire is shown learning 18th century healing skills. Mrs. Fitz, for example, teaches her about the proper use of leeches. I understand they filmed that scene (fixing Jamie's eye, post beating) but the faux leeches looked too fake so they cut it. Then you see Geillis sharing herb-lore with Claire in two different scenes. So I think it's fair to say that some skills readily translate to the 18th century (setting broken bones, fixing dislocated shoulders, binding wounds) and some she will have to learn (herb-lore) but she already has a head start due to her interest in botany and her field nursing experience (where you just know they occasionally had to improvise due to delays in receiving supplies. )

[nara]

Claire NEVER abandoned Frank. She did her duty for the war effort, which shows a lot of integrity; more than Frank who selfishly wanted to keep her near him. To hell with those wounded men at the front!

I thought this scene was really interesting once I saw the rest of the episode.  Frank, quite naturally, wanted to protect his wife.  I thought it was a reasonable thing to want to do and what I would expect from any loving husband.  However, it showed a bit of a lack of understanding of who Claire is.  Claire is NOT the type to avoid risks when someone needs her help (in this case, soldiers). 

Examples:

• She actually says something about this in Episode 1 in her voiceover when she first meets Dougal's men.  She says that she would be better off keeping her head down and her mouth shut (paraphrase) and then she immediately tells them "don't you dare" touch Jamie because they're about to break his arm.  She knew by speaking that she was taking a risk, but she did it anyway to protect the hurt man.
• She also takes a risk in helping Mrs. Fitz's nephew when others this he has been possessed, and we know that at least one person (the priest) now thinks she's a witch.
• She takes a risk in helping the tanner's boy whose ear has been nailed to the pillory, because the townspeople would not appreciate her going against their practices for punishment.

 

It's interesting that Jamie is very similar in this respect and also takes risks to help people.

Examples:

• Taking the beating for Laoghaire, even though he was already badly hurt
• Helping Claire with rescuing the tanner's boy.  He, more than Claire would face scorn from the townspeople.  They might make exceptions for a foreigner not understanding their practices, but he would get no such allowance.
• Going to the "haunted" church with Claire even though he actually believes in demonic possession and had seen his own cousin suffer from a previous visit.

 

What remains to be seen (at least by non-book readers) is whether two such similar people are soulmates or whether Claire is better off with someone who balances her somewhat reckless courage.

[Zima]

I enjoy the show. I just wanted to say that my heart sank when Jamie was making out with Laoghaire.  Way to take advantage of a young girl, arsehole. He's still sexy, so I hope to see more of him and his kilts, but I no longer want him and Claire to become a "thing" the way I used to.  What a disappointment.