Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[KAOS Agent]

Golden Queen sounds like a very specific kink, not a ship. Could we maybe come up with a different name for that?

[YaddaYadda]

15 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Golden Queen sounds like a very specific kink, not a ship. Could we maybe come up with a different name for that?

Dark Queen?

[Rumsy4]

Lizard Queen

Regal Gold

Evil Lizard

Cleavage Croc

[DigitalCount]

15 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lizard Queen

Regal Gold

Evil Lizard

Cleavage Croc

I'll toss some support behind Cleavage Croc.

[daxx]

So Lana and some other celebrities are telling their fans how to vote for president. Now, I am very anti trump but I totally disagree that celebrities should use their power to sway a person's vote. I am more than fine if celebrities encourage people to educate themselves and then and only then exercise their right to vote.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, daxx said:

So Lana and some other celebrities are telling their fans how to vote for president. Now, I am very anti trump but I totally disagree that celebrities should use their power to sway a person's vote. I am more than fine if celebrities encourage people to educate themselves and then and only then exercise their right to vote.

She's not telling people who to vote for. She's just asking people to join her in a campaign. This stuff is for like-minded people. If a Katy Perry fan is going to vote for Trump, no amount of her campaigning for Clinton will change that.

[maryle]

I am not into  the celebrity culture we are living it.

That why I do not follow any artist on any social media and sometime do find weird the obsession about their private life most of it is projection anyway.

In fact, I believe the appeal of Trump is directly link to the celebrity culture of today. Ironic is in it? Now as Canadian I cannot vote but if a artist want to tell for who she vote I am fine with it.

Still hoping that no one base solely their vote in any election on what a celebrity told people should make their own mind and that Truth for any election in any country.

[Katherine]

I'm not a huge fan of Lana, but I have no problem with her promoting an anti-Trump cause. IMO, there's nothing wrong with celebrities being vocal about their political views. They're people first, and therefore they have the right to (respectfully) voice their opinions, just as their fans have the right to disagree with those opinions. That being said, I'm extremely anti-Trump myself, so of course I'm biased in favour of someone using their celebrity status as a platform for voicing concerns about him :)

Edited October 15, 2016 by Katherine

[MostlyC]

Let's do our best to keep political discourse out this thread, even if a cast member is actively pro/anti a candidate.  Right now, politics are an explosive and sensitive topic, and OUAT fandom is explosive and sensitive enough all by itself.

 

If anyone wishes to discuss politics, you can do it at this shiny new forum that is here

[Serena]

Without mentioning politics specifically, I'll say I often find Lana obnoxious in how she chooses to express her activism, but I also usually find her heart is in the right place.

[Rosiejuliemom]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:42 PM, sharky said:

So with all this TWoP talk, what the hell is this? http://screenertv.com/twop/

Hm....I like where I am just fine, thanks.

I will accept this if I can get full read-only access to the old forums. The Wayback Machine doesn't have everything and it is really frustrating.

Cleavage Croc for the win.

[Geeni]

From the Relationships thread: 

Quote

What some people don't seem to acknowledge is Belle is married to none of the others.

"Some people" being the Rumbeller's that bash Belle for being friends with Hook, and asking Zelena for help and being nice to Regina. The funny thing is, they all claim to love that she is so forgiving. But wait! She is only allowed to enable forgive Rumple, and no other character ever! Who cares if Regina or Hook are redeeming themselves, or trying to???

Edited October 20, 2016 by Geeni

[Curio]

It seems like some—not all—parts of the Rumbelle fandom have the same thing going on as the Swan Queen fandom: they love one character (Rumple, Regina) way more than the other (Belle, Emma). In the Swan Queen fandom, the majority love Regina first and foremost and it seems like they only want her to get with Emma as some kind of prize. The Rumbellers who are bashing Belle for standing up for herself right now seem to be the hardcore Rumple fans who only want him to get with Belle as some kind of prize. So whenever Belle stands up for herself in canon, those fans think it's some kind of attack against their favorite character because they're unable to put themselves in the shoes of Belle and sympathize with her character.

[maryle]

Yes, rumbelle fandom is the other fandom I go to see peak sometime and they basically just saw Belle as a doormat and everything they don't like is ooc for Belle.

They always wonder how killed Neal affected Rumbelle character

Actually I wonder how the rumbelle fandom as affected Rumple story as is own. I mean I often got the feeling they couldn't use him effectively as villain because of his relationship. 

 is Rumple storyline seems going to some kind of closure at the end of the season for Rumple.  lf, really a serie regular exit it will be R. C. I believe because of that .

[Rumsy4]

20 hours ago, Curio said:

It seems like some—not all—parts of the Rumbelle fandom have the same thing going on as the Swan Queen fandom: they love one character (Rumple, Regina) way more than the other (Belle, Emma). 

Even in the CS fandom, there's typically sniping and passive-aggressive arguments between people who support Emma or Killian more. Especially in 3B, 4A, and 5A in the Dark Hook parts of the arc. But the ratio is not blatantly skewed towards one of them, especially now. 

[InsertWordHere]

I think we as a fandom can do better than "Jaladdin" as a ship name. Anyone have any ideas? Street Princess? Okay, that one kind of sounds like a prostitute. Diamond 'Mine?

[Rumsy4]

How about Flower Thief? ;-)

[InsertWordHere]

Desert Apple?

[OnceUponAJen]

Desert Rat? That sounds awful. Palace Rat?

Edited October 25, 2016 by OnceUponAJen

[Souris]

The Agrabaes. LOLOLOL!

[OnceUponAJen]

Nothing with "bae" in it, I beg you!

[Souris]

Agraboos?

[Rumsy4]

My tumblr dash seems pretty low-key this season. A couple of die-hard fans of the show either stopped watching altogether or are watching intermittently. The poor S5 finale, plus the pretty blah season opener, apparently has left many people cold. I feel like they were more invested in the Show than I was, but I'm still watching regularly. The greater the fan, the harder the fall, perhaps? I'll be honest though--I wouldn't watch live if it were not for this forum. 

[daxx]

I know one of my favorite writers is crushing on another show and writing for it now. Wondering if she's going to finish her CS WIP. I keep getting the notification for updates and it's always for Lucifer not Once anymore. Sigh, guess this is just the beginning of the slide.

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

My tumblr dash seems pretty low-key this season. A couple of die-hard fans of the show either stopped watching altogether or are watching intermittently. The poor S5 finale, plus the pretty blah season opener, apparently has left many people cold. I feel like they were more invested in the Show than I was, but I'm still watching regularly. The greater the fan, the harder the fall, perhaps? I'll be honest though--I wouldn't watch live if it were not for this forum. 

Yeah, I think that those of us who have been more critical with this show since season 4 have accepted the ridiculous season 5 finale and the decay of the show better than some of the most superpositive fans. We were expecting the lack of pay off so we weren't surprised. But some people trully thought there was going to be something great in the finale for CS and they were taken by surprise. I guess that the disappointment, when that unexpected, it's hard to shallow. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm going down with this ship. I've got to see it through to the end. I think people tend to get burned out on shows in their last seasons.  That has happened to me with several shows....even ones I really loved.

[Souris]

I have notice a BIG dropoff in the amount of posts about the show among people I follow on Twitter & Tumblr. There's very little buzz or excitement about the show. The finale was incredibly lackluster, which didn't inspire buzz over the summer, and the premiere didn't help in that regard. Everything is both lackluster and depressing. There's no romance or fun anymore. Even Evil Regals don't seem to be that excited about the double Regina story line. There's no hint or teases of anything fun to entice people. CaptainSwan is being sidelined and there's no hope for any milestone moments for them like an engagement anytime soon. Things feel repetitive.

No wonder the fandom is asleep or have moved on.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Souris

[Shanna Marie]

I would think that this season is especially uninspiring for those whose fandom is 'ship driven. All the relationships are pretty much established by now, so there's no "will they or won't they" question. Rumple and Belle are on the outs, with his recent treatment of her probably making it harder to root for that 'ship unless you're really just a Rumple fan rooting for him to get what he wants. Emma and Hook are barely interacting, and while they've supposedly made the next step of moving in together, that apparently happened offscreen. We haven't had even the slightest glimpse of what they look like as a couple under normal (for Storybrooke) circumstances. Robin's dead, and now so is Hyde, for those who wanted him with either Regina or the Evil Queen. The relationship being teased seems to be with Rumple, which mostly has people shuddering in horror.

The people hanging on may be those watching more for plot, but even the plot is pretty weak and repetitive. I guess there's a lot of space for fanfic writers to work with, since so much seems to be happening offscreen, but is there the excitement to motivate that?

I'm mostly enjoying it now as a writing exercise in what not to do.

[Kktjones]

Not to mention there seem to be several new shows that play to the same audience as Once (Timeless, This is Us, Pitch, even Lucifer). I know many fandom friends that have moved on to these shows since they were no longer getting the same level of enjoyment out of Once. This season really doesn't seem to have much to offer anyone - even the most hardcore Evil Regals. 

[daxx]

The potential of this show, the premise, the engaging characters, the wonderful actors, the beautiful settings and costumes. It just makes me cry.

[Kktjones]

13 minutes ago, daxx said:

The potential of this show, the premise, the engaging characters, the wonderful actors, the beautiful settings and costumes. It just makes me cry.

This pretty much says it all. I can't bring myself to read any canon-based fanfic, because it's just depressing to see that what fans write for the characters and situations is so superior to what's on the show...

Quote

I'll be honest though--I wouldn't watch live if it were not for this forum. 

I agree Rumsy4 (sorry, I couldn't get it to quote you properly) - I really only watch live to follow along on social media and read the posts here. Not sure if that's gonna be enough to get me through the rest of this season...

Edited October 26, 2016 by Kktjones

[KingOfHearts]

It's just tedious for me. Each episode feels like a chore, with the faint hope it will eventually get better toward the climax. It's all so pointless that skipping episodes is far from taboo when it comes to understanding what's going on. Fans are finally seeing the wheels spinning repetitively. It's been like that for a while, but there's less bells and whistles to keep them distracted.

[Katherine]

I miss seeing that fan excitement (whether it be on forums, tumblr, or social media). There just isn't the same anticipation as there used to be. My interest has definitely dwindled since season 5. I still follow the show and fandom quite closely, but I'm not nearly as excited for new episodes as I once was, and I don't follow spoilers quite as closely as I used to. I usually watch new episodes as they air but it no longer bothers me if I have to delay watching. 

A big part of this is probably normal for a show that's been around six seasons--it's not unusual for ratings to drop and for some of even the more passionate fans to lose interest. But I also think at least a small part of it is because fans no longer trust the writers to deliver a satisfying payoff. The unfulfilled potential of the show has been mentioned here often, and I think some of the fans who used to look forward to it have started to realize that it brings more disappointment or frustration than fun or excitement. Honestly, the last time I felt like the show lived up to its potential was the season 3 finale. And that's probably because I'm a Captain Swan shipper. For fans who don't care about Captain Swan, I'm not sure when the last truly satisfying episode would have been. 

I'm not saying there aren't fans who still enjoy the show. It's still entertaining and it's still capable of great moments. It's just that for me, those moments have become fewer and far between. 

[Curio]

Quote

I miss seeing that fan excitement (whether it be on forums, tumblr , or social media). [...] A big part of this is probably normal for a show that's been around six seasons--it's not unusual for ratings to drop and for some of even the more passionate fans to lose interest. But I also think at least a small part of it is because fans no longer trust the writers to deliver a satisfying payoff.

 

It's 100% on the writing. You look at shows like Breaking Bad, Seinfeld, or HBO dramas that actually managed to gain viewers in their final seasons, and it's all because of the quality of the writing and the showrunners who knew how to deliver a satisfying story. A&E have lost their way over the years, and the OUAT that they delivered in the early seasons is drastically different than the OUAT they're giving us now. Shows are allowed to change over time, but usually, their core DNA doesn't change along the way and characters aren't unrecognizable versions of themselves. Ginnifer Goodwin is first-billed and Snow was one of the most important characters in Season 1, but now the writers have no grasp on who Snow White is anymore and she's practically a brand new character compared to her Season 1 counterpart. The fans clamor year after year for fun domestic scenes, but A&E constantly give interviews about how it would be "boring" to see Hook use a popcorn maker or have Emma and Hook watching Netflix, yet that's exactly what will increase fan enthusiasm again. (But they'll give us an equivalent scene on screen between Zelena and Regina, which most fans weren't clamoring for.)

There's a divide between what A&E find entertaining and what the audience wants to see on screen, and that problem won't be fixed unless we get new showrunners. It must be a difficult position to be in where you don't want to give up your creative integrity and give in to what fans want, but on the other hand, that's what makes television...television. It's this weird push and pull where the showrunners can completely ignore fan reactions and stick to their original premise, but then they might lose viewers. And if they listen to fans too much or listen to only a small group of fandom, that's going to piss off a lot of other fans.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Curio

[RedKeep]

7 hours ago, Katherine said:

For fans who don't care about Captain Swan, I'm not sure when the last truly satisfying episode would have been. 

And that probably explains a lot about the state the fandom is in too. I imagine a lot of people are still following the show because their favorite actors/characters are technically still part of it, but the writers haven't given them anything enjoyable in ages because Horowitz and Kitsis and the people who actually watch their show are so out of tune on many fronts. Regardless of how one might feel about the character Regina, I don't think it's surprising at all that a lot of Evil Regals aren't over the moon with how this season has been going either, no matter how much screentime Lana Parrilla may be getting. The writers seem to be pretty much the only ones obsessed with the idea that the audience prefers the EQ over Regina and that's why it was necessary to negate two full seasons spent with hammering the ideas of soulmates and second chances at love home with Regina and Robin Hood by killing him off with a never-mentioned-before magic mcguffin so they could get that ridiculous split Queen idea going. Rumple/Rumbelle has been in a similar state for a similar amount of time, with the only difference being that they haven't actually killed Belle off just yet. And Snowing only exist in the background because clearly happy, domestic couples are boring. Seems to me there's a huge amount of frustration going around and the general fandom is long past the point where it makes the experience of keeping up with the show enjoyable even while the quality of the writting has been in a state of steady decline.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, RedKeep said:

The writers seem to be pretty much the only ones obsessed with the idea that the audience prefers the EQ over Regina

Actually, I think that is true, the EQ has always been the face of the show in marketing and more popular than Regina among the general audience.

The problem with what they're doing now is two-fold:

1. The majority of the general audience that loves the EQ have already moved on, they are not coming back no matter what the show does.

2. The EQ they have on now is not the EQ the audience loved, she is an overacting caricature of the former EQ and a totally ineffective villain.

Quote

 

It's 100% on the writing. You look at shows like Breaking Bad, Seinfeld, or HBO dramas that actually managed to gain viewers in their final seasons, and it's all because of the quality of the writing and the showrunners who knew how to deliver a satisfying story. A&E have lost their way over the years, and the OUAT that they delivered in the early seasons is drastically different than the OUAT they're giving us now. Shows are allowed to change over time, but usually, their core DNA doesn't change along the way and characters aren't unrecognizable versions of themselves. Ginnifer Goodwin is first-billed and Snow was one of the most important characters in Season 1, but now the writers have no grasp on who Snow White is anymore and she's practically a brand new character compared to her Season 1 counterpart. The fans clamor year after year for fun domestic scenes, but A&E constantly give interviews about how it would be "boring" to see Hook use a popcorn maker or have Emma and Hook watching Netflix, yet that's exactly what will increase fan enthusiasm again. (But they'll give us an equivalent scene on screen between Zelena and Regina, which most fans weren't clamoring for.)

There's a divide between what A&E find entertaining and what the audience wants to see on screen, and that problem won't be fixed unless we get new showrunners. It must be a difficult position to be in where you don't want to give up your creative integrity and give in to what fans want, but on the other hand, that's what makes television...television. It's this weird push and pull where the showrunners can completely ignore fan reactions and stick to their original premise, but then they might lose viewers. And if they listen to fans too much or listen to only a small group of fandom, that's going to piss off a lot of other fans.

 

ALL of this.  And even if the ratings going down is natural for a show like this, we have two points in the show's history where there have been a massive viewer drop-out: very early into 2B (starting with the infamous "The Cricket Game"), and the last two episodes of 4A + first two episodes of 4B (the also infamous "Heroes & Villains" and the start of Snow and Charming's eggnapper subplot in an already unpopular plot about the Author.) There was a more minor viewer drop-out with the last two episodes of 5A as well (Dark Hook), and with the reactions to this season ranging from tepid to outright disdain, I think we're looking at another viewer drop-out.  A&E have no idea what most viewers would rather see in a show like this (even though it is incredibly easy to spell out: "Less angst, more FUN please!"  People don't want to watch a fairy-tale show for angst and "drama".)

Edited October 28, 2016 by Mathius

[maryle]

I am very curious to see the pourcentage of the drop of the season but also until the winter break.

What is playing for them is the loyalty of the Once fandom and G.A viewers for the show but it can change.

Strangely I still see a lot of positivity in the CS fandom( people want to wait before judging cthing) 

My reason to prefer Regina is that the character as evolve and seeing this caricature of the old EQ play mind games don't particularly do anything for Regina development and we know that she will eventually have to reintegrate her.

So, this arc could have a ok for 5 (including the Robin stuff) episode but 22 is just too much of the same. The writer because they love Regina too much always go overboard with her. They definitely don't do that for Emma or the other when it's their turn to shine.

Snowing having a real arc this year is the only light saver for me. But, they still Mostly there to prop Regina or Emma. 

Not really looking forward for any episode  however I still do have some curiousity for episode 10 but that it.

[Souris]

Our office was remodeled, and I now sit near some new co-workers. Some of us got talking about TV shows today. One of my co-workers mentioned (without me bringing up the show) that she needed to get caught up on Once. She said she used to watch it all the time but fell out of the habit partway through last season. She said it's just not as good as it used to be and they've gotten lazy in the storytelling. She said she loves Hook and is still upset they killed Graham.

So there's an anecdote about a total GA and her viewing.

[daxx]

My boss, GA. Binge watched the entire series last year in just a few months and stalled right after the season 4 finale. She hasn't started up again. Her fav is Regina. I got her an EQ funko pop that she adores. Calls it her mini me, she could totally cosplay Regina.

[TheGreenKnight]

I'm betting 4B is where many viewers stopped. Rumbelle fans obviously wouldn't be happy with their ship imploding, regular fans wouldn't be happy because the show was at its worst, and the setup for season 5 was not exciting enough to entice the people who had been burned by the 4B trainwreck. Even I wasn't interested in 5, but I'm a viewer who rarely drops shows. I think that, if they had cut out Maleficent, Ursula, and Lily, 4B might've done decently with the main plot revolving around Rumpel using Cruella to get back to Storybrooke and then looking for The Author (and the B Plot being Zelena's revival). The only new character would've been Cruella, and most of the plot would focus on the core characters and explore the story behind Henry's book. Plus, that would've kept Maleficent and Ursula in their back pocket for season 6 and/or 7. Those were two of the biggest characters that could've brought at least a half-season's worth of hype each and they were both wasted in one half season when OUAT's Cruella was brilliant enough to hold up that arc by herself. What's worse, both characters were so badly done that there's no way they satisfied any viewer's expectations; they were practically background characters. They could've really been helpful for them to stem rating loss as the show aged.

[Mathius]

Yeah, 4B didn't do anyone any favors.  It was just bad all around, fans of every character and every relationship were let down by it.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Mathius

[Katherine]

14 hours ago, Mathius said:

 A&E have no idea what most viewers would rather see in a show like this (even though it is incredibly easy to spell out: "Less angst, more FUN please!"  People don't want to watch a fairy-tale show for angst and "drama".)

This is so true. They also seem to be under the impression that fans watch the show for its "shocking twists". I get that most writers don't want their audience to be completely spoiled. I definitely wouldn't be as interested in a show where I knew every single thing that was going to happen. But it seems like Adam and Eddy really pride themselves on shock value. For instance, there could have been way more build up to Dark Hook, to Robin Hood's death, and to a million other things, but A&E didn't leave any clues, maybe partially because they didn't have much of a plan, but also I think because they wanted to make it as shocking! as possible. That's more of a topic for the writing of the show, but my point is that most of the fans who are still tuning in probably aren't doing it for the clever twists and turns. They're tuning in either because they're attached to the characters or because they like to see Once's interpretation of classic fairytales. While that interpretation may involve a certain twist or spin, it certainly doesn't require built-in shock factor.

At this point, it kind of seems like it's just a matter of pride with A&E--they don't want fans to be able to guess what's going to happen next. What they don't realize is that that strategy may actually be costing them fans. For one thing, it leads to the most boring, vague promotion of the show. Remember Comic Con this year when we learned pretty much nothing about the upcoming season? I don't think the mystery made fans more excited--it made them wonder if there was even anything to look forward to. And the other problem, of course, is that the preoccupation with twists leads to plot!plot!plot!, at the expense of character-driven moments. It's no wonder fan interest seems to be dwindling. Most fans I know would rather be satisfied than surprised. 

[Mathius]

A&E just don't tell the stories people want.........oh my God, they ARE Isaac Heller!

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Plus, that would've kept Maleficent and Ursula in their back pocket for season 6 and/or 7. Those were two of the biggest characters that could've brought at least a half-season's worth of hype each and they were both wasted in one half season when OUAT's Cruella was brilliant enough to hold up that arc by herself.

I really can't believe that they bungled Maleficent that badly. At that time, she was a fairly hot property, coming off the big-screen movie. The Halloween of season 4, Jo-Ann's was full of moms trying to figure out how to do Maleficent horns for their daughters' costumes. The teen girls, in particular, liked her. She seemed to appeal to the same group that loves Regina, so it would have been a perfect fit for the show's audience. The actress had a raised profile due to True Blood. And yet they barely used her. Her flashback episodes were about Regina and Snow, not about her. We never really saw the core of her story, and her story wasn't really resolved.

[Souris]

10 hours ago, Katherine said:

This is so true. They also seem to be under the impression that fans watch the show for its "shocking twists". I get that most writers don't want their audience to be completely spoiled. I definitely wouldn't be as interested in a show where I knew every single thing that was going to happen. But it seems like Adam and Eddy really pride themselves on shock value. ... At this point, it kind of seems like it's just a matter of pride with A&E--they don't want fans to be able to guess what's going to happen next. What they don't realize is that that strategy may actually be costing them fans. 

Absolutely spot-on. The most important thing for A&E is "shocking" the audience. For them, that comes before telling a story that makes sense or that delivers emotional payoff. They deliberately avoid doing things that fans expect or want to see, even if it means omitting really important and necessary things (such as Emma & Hook talking about her vision of death). That gimmicky method of story-telling is very devoid of emotional resonance -- and it does tend to drive away audience in the end, because it is ultimately unsatisfying. But they seem to be PROUD of their method of storytelling, when they really shouldn't be.

They are terrible writers.

[Mathius]

While the above is all true, it really does make me wonder what Game of Thrones is doing that keeps it so successful, because it shares much of the same problem (shock value is prioritized over logic, character and emotional payoff).  D&D are little better than A&E. Maybe it's all GRRM's stuff?

Edited October 29, 2016 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, Mathius said:

While the above is all true, it really does make me wonder what Game of Thrones is doing that keeps it so successful, because it shares much of the same problem (shock value is prioritized over logic, character and emotional payoff).  D&D are little better than A&E. Maybe it's all GRRM's stuff?

I almost stopped watching Game of Thrones after season 5 because of what happened with Sansa. The reason I went back for season 6 was because the show moved past the books and I'm basically really worried that GRRM will die before finishing the story, and let's face it, I've been waiting on some plots for like half of my life now.

The writing is not great, but Game of Thrones is also only 10 episodes a season, and even more condensed the next couple seasons, so they don't have time to spin their wheels with some of the characters anymore. 

If it wasn't a bunch of books that the story was based off of, I think D&D would be as bad as A&E when it comes to world building and maintaining the characters' integrity, and even with that, they sort of found a way to muck it up a bit.

[Shanna Marie]

34 minutes ago, Mathius said:

While the above is all true, it really does make me wonder what Game of Thrones is doing that keeps it so successful, because it shares much of the same problem (shock value is prioritized over logic, character and emotional payoff).

But I think that there's more setup and payoff for the shocks in Game of Thrones, especially in the earlier seasons. The brilliance of the Red Wedding isn't the shockingness of it, but the fact that the groundwork was laid each step of the way, to the point that when you look back, it was inevitable. We saw what the characters involved were like, saw the customs that would be violated, saw the things that would have set it off. And we're still seeing fallout from it, years later. It totally changed the course of the lives of many characters. Compare that to the way a lot of Rumple's betrayals are treated, where the resolution comes from nowhere and it ends up having no long-term effect. Or look at the aftermath of Jon Snow's death/resurrection compared to Hook's. We saw more reaction to Jon's return, and he's talked about what death was like and wanting to stay dead this time, there were moments where you could see him realizing that he wanted to live. You can't even tell now that Hook ever died. There is still a high value placed on shock, and on that show it's often just visible or moral shock (the rape scenes, the gore), but for the plot twist shocks, there's more to it. On this show, it's just plot twists that are surprising only because they came out of the blue and make no sense. Game of Thrones rewards rewatching because you can see how things are set up. On Once Upon a Time, rewatching is just infuriating because you can spot all the contradictions and it's obvious that there's no setup.

[Camera One]

I'm going to take my reply to Comparisons to other fairy tales thread, or maybe the Writers thread.

[Mari]

2 minutes ago, Jul 68 said:

I  have a hunch that all of Regina and Gold kissing and flirting scenes were filmed well before they had any idea how badly fandom would be skeeved out by it. I predict that they will disappear sooner than later (I hope).

Moved from the episode thread--my response had nothing to do with the actual episode.

I know the fandom has been muted this year, but has there been response to the pairing?  Apart from some squicked posts, here?