S01.E09: The Green Council

[AntFTW]

Rhaenys suggests that Alicent should take the Iron Throne, and at the same time, implies that she would back Alicent.

However, since Alicent doesn’t want to do that, Rhaenys isn’t willing to put her support on an unfit King with unfit men behind him. I’m largely guessing here. Therefore, the choice is between a group of unfit men who will continue the same fuckery they’ve always done and Rhaenyra, who may be a radical and revolutionary change for the better even if it’s just a little bit.

Edited October 17, 2022 by AntFTW

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

I really do think the shot of Rhaenys on top of Meleys looked awesome, but agree that her disregard for the regular folk was a bad look. Still love Rhaenys though. 

I won't lay the deaths of the small folk at Rhaenys' feet; Otto and Alicent had those people herded into the sept for that farce of a coronation.  Otto probably planned to kill Rhaenys and her granddaughters to get Driftmark, since Vaemond got himself killed. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I wondered the same initially then quickly realised this must be their ahem, 'arrangement' ("I'm sure you'll reward me when the time is right"). This clearly wasn't the first instance - gross and pretty sure that counts as unfaithful for a married woman....

We can't assume that the faith of the Seven is parallel to Christianity's take on marital fidelity.

But even if we do, there are Christians who believe/rationalize/call it what you will that only penis-in-vagina sex is being unfaithful, and that a woman isn't losing her virginity when she has anal sex, oral sex, or engages in other forms of sexual behavior.

11 hours ago, mac123x said:

Wow, the "women are good and peaceful and men are horrible war mongerers" message was a little heavy handed.  And WTF was with the White Worm's sudden social activism?  They didn't set up the child pit fighting until like 3 minutes earlier in the episode, and she's a master spy but also a social worker.  Weird.

Loved Alicent throughout the show.  The actress is so good.

The women aren't particularly good and peaceful, at all. 

Of the main women shown:

Ali ordered the killing of the spy network head, and would be fine with starting a conflict that could divide the realm. She also doesn't seem adverse to killing Rhae and co., but just doesn't want to do it as a first resort. 

Rhaenys trampled probably a dozen people underfoot for no reason but to send a message that she disapproves of the coup attempt, and she flew off to (likely) rally Team Rhae.

The White Worm is a blackmailer who by her own admission would have been just as willing to have killed Aegon as to keep him safe if she thought she'd profit more from that.

It's just that the men who are good tend to have a short shelf life. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard quit and the lord who would not bend the knee got killed.

11 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

But isn't that not very devout and righteous of Alicent to be in the room while Larys rubs one out to the sight of her soles?

Again, the faith of the Seven is not the same as Christianity.  But even assuming for discussion's sake that the faith does have some sort of equivalent puritanical streak, it could simply be one more compromise that Ali makes, along with accepting a murderer as an ally.

10 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

That part with Alicent and Larys was just unnecessary and made no sense.

It was necessary to reveal elements of both Ali and Larys' characters. 

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Since the Council (minus Alicent and Beesbury) had this usurpation planned, it didn't really matter what Vicerys wanted. They were always going to install Aegon as king, if at all feasible. Vicerys' last words were just a justification for Alicent, and a convenient excuse for the rest of the council to tell to the rest of the world.

It might have been that Ali would not have gone along with the plan if she didn't genuinely believe that Vicerys had changed his mind. If Ali doesn't go along with the plan, then it's not clear if Aegon goes along with the plan. At least IMO, she seemed to be a key part in convincing him to go along with the coronation.

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Since I dont imagine otto talks to his grandkids, Alicent had to be in on that, otherwise why was Aemond referring to Helena as Aegons queen two episodes/six years ago?  This writing is throwing me off.

Aemond is a smart guy and does not need either Otto or Ali to suggest to him that the line of succession should not go through to those Strong Boys. 

We are explicitly shown in this episode that Ali had no idea about the brewing coup.

9 hours ago, Dac22 said:

The show trying to juggle making Alicent as sympathetic as possible while staying true to the story isn't really feasible in my opinion unless they essentially want to make her a nothing character. 

There's just no way to accomplish what she wants peacefully so having her argue for peace while her supporters do all the dirty work simply renders her character superfluous beyond wanting viewers to feel sorry for her.

My take is that she wants to give Rhae a chance at peace first rather than execute an assassination as a first resort. I may be projecting too much goodness onto her, but I think she is holding out some hope that when told that "Viserys made a deathbed wish for Aegon to be king and it would divide the realm, so let's work this out" that such an approach might work.

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Now Cristen is getting away with murdering a lord? What are these writers smoking?

Cris killed someone who was not down with the coup. The only person in the room who was possibly going to question his action was the commander of the Kingsguard who stepped down. Who exactly was supposed to prosecute Cris in this scenario?

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Alicent tried really hard to misunderstand what Viserys said, didn't she? At no point did he say "I want Aegon to be king".

There didn't seem to be any trying to misunderstand in my book.

To recap:

V: "Don't you remember? Aegon?"

A: "Our son?"

V: "...his dream? The Song of Ice and Fire? It is true. What he saw in the North. The Prince that was Promised."

A: "I don't understand, Viserys."

V: "The Prince"

A: "Prince Aegon?"

V: "To unite the realm against the cold and the dark. It is you. You are the one. You must do this. You must do this."

To someone like Ali who had never heard of the Song of Ice and Fire or the Prince that was Promised, I don't know if there would be too many plausible explanations for this beyond a. he's just rambling and should be ignored or b. he is saying that Aegon is the prince that was promised to unite the realm rather than divide it as Rhae's rule threatens to do since as we have been told time and again, much of Westeros would not see a woman rule.

[magdalene]

Has it not occurred to Alicent and pimp-daddy that once they make Aegon an absolute monarch and he gets a taste for that they may have trouble controlling him and all his excesses?

[paigow]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

Has it not occurred to Alicent and pimp-daddy that once they make Aegon an absolute monarch and he gets a taste for that they may have trouble controlling him and all his excesses?

Aemond

[Avabelle]

By not having Her dragon kill the greens Rhaenyra has all but signed the death sentence of the grand daughters.

[Athena5217]

4 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Has it not occurred to Alicent and pimp-daddy that once they make Aegon an absolute monarch and he gets a taste for that they may have trouble controlling him and all his excesses?

Maybe not. Otto thinks he is a brilliant chess player, but we have seen that he does not think long-term. For example, he convinced Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir to solve the immediate problem of Daemon being next in line, but he didn’t stop to consider the potential future problem Rhaenyra being heir would cause if the king having a son with another wife. Duh. He never attempted to cultivate Rhaenyra’s favor even though she was the king’s daughter and heir. Everyone knows the best manipulators play both sides.

For Alicent’s part, I think she is too naive to consider how horrible Aegon could be as king. She probably thinks if she prays enough it will be okay.

I wish we knew what some of the other nobility thought of Aegon. Do they know about his raping and child fight club or has that been covered up successfully?

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I like Eve Best, and she's great in the role, but her saying that scene showed why Rhaenys would make the best ruler and how merciful she is makes me laugh given Rhaenys massacred a ton of innocent

I didn't get that at all. I got a chaos agent thinking through options. Rhaenys is the Queen of Thorns and hates everyone other than her granddaughters whom she probably wants to save. From her perspective Daemon and Rhynaera have killed three close family members and have their clutches on her two granddaughters. Alicent just offered her Driftmark free and clear. 

I think Alicent not agreeing to give her back her dragon was a major sticking point. I thought we might see her Dragon killed. Slaughtered in the pit. But I think it might be Daemon who kills the first dragon. He seems to be ruthless enough and knows his lore. 

I don't think it was so much a hero moment as Hello! I am a player in this game. Do not forget that. 

Next season my hope is we meet a lot more sly ladies and lords playing both sides. The Targaryens are invaders. Foreigners really. Deep in their hearts do the OG houses really love them? It's a long game until Robert's Rebellion.

I HOPE the Martells come to play.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

I wish we knew what some of the other nobility thought of Aegon. Do they know about his raping and child fight club or has that been covered up successfully?

The twin Kingsguards know about Aegon Durden as do multiple White Worm spies.. so the truth will not remain hidden much longer 

Edited October 17, 2022 by paigow

[RobertDeSneero]

I can give a plausible reason for why Rhaenys let them live, I think.

The instinct of the Gold Cloaks was to close the doors.  Otto is yelling at them to open the doors because he wants Rhaenys to have an exit lane so that she will just leave.  Do you think he wants the doors open because he wants as many smallfolk lives to be saved?  He just doesn't want to put her in a situation where she has to fight her way out because he dies in that scenario.

If Rhaenys cooks up some Green barbecue, the doors will be closed, she will be trapped, and there will be a strong possibility that she and her dragon will be killed.  She doesn't want that.  Aegon and company are hostages.  She demonstrates that she can kill them if she isn't given a way out.

In the background, the doors stop closing.  Once her off-ramp is confirmed, she sticks to the terms of her unspoken deal, that they get to live so long as she gets to escape, and flies off.

[Welshman in Ca]

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Ravens in the Red keep would be controlled by the Grand Maester. Who is part of of this palace coup.  He's the black guy in the grey robe. 

He seemed awfully young to be the Grand Maester or was that just my imagination?

[Stardancer Supreme]

12 hours ago, Scaeva said:

A dragon crashing through a floor to smash some Westerosi folks into a fine paste should be content I'd like, but I didn't understand the character motivations behind it and *maybe* thought it was an uncharacteristicly foolish act from a character who normally comes across as the brightest in the room.

I didn't watch the episode live & so I caugtht the behind the scenes bits, and also found that confusing, as the showrunners said they wanted to give Rhaenys a heroic exit. I'm sorry, what?! She killed a lot of innocent spectators, but spared the people whose deaths might actually sort out the mess one way or another. 

I'm hoping there is a reason the dragon couldn't have just exited through the door, and had to smash through the floor instead, and I'm the dumb one for missing it. Or that Rhaeyns is now steepling her fingers & cackling somewhere at the chaos she hopes to exploit, because otherwise I'd rank it as one of the weaker scenes of the GoT universe, spectacle aside.

9 hours ago, Scaeva said:

The issue with Rhaenys isn't so much that she killed innocent people. You don't expect moral behavior from most characters in these shows, particularly Targaryens, and awful aristocrats doing awful things to each other is a big part of the drama that keeps people tuning in. It's more that she killed a bunch of innocent people who are inconsequential to the succession crisis, only to inexplicably spare the not-so-innocent people who actually do matter.

Rhaenys' actions in contrast seem nonsensical, at least on the surface. Assuming she's not pulling a Littlefinger and hoping to grab the crown after every other head fit to wear it has been lopped off, not only did the raid on the coronation kill a bunch of people for no tangible gain, sparing the Green king & council guarantees civil war and puts her own house in peril.  

Daemon's impulsivity is also entirely in character, while I'm not certain Rhaenys' crashing the coronation only to kill smallfolk, but none of the royals or nobles who are soon to be her enemies, was. Until the end of this episode she had always been presented as one of the more wise characters.

Tl;dr: Different reactions for those two characters' evil acts isn't necessarily a double standard. Daemon's actions seem in character & have purpose behind them, Rhaeyns' raid on the coronation lacked both.

Rhaenys didn't intend to raid the coronation. Remember, Otto had her imprisoned in her room. He fully intended to keep her and her dragon from rallying to Rhaenyra's side.  Rhaenys wanted to leave King's Landing with her dragon.   Otto probably had the Dragon pit masters attempt to keep Melys in the pit to take a dragon off the chessboard and kill Rhaenys later. She probably had no choice but to go up instead of out the door and took a little time to let Alicent know her intimidation attempt didn't work.

Also there were no nobles present at the coronation other than the ones on the dias, right? This is practically a day after Viserys' death. No one outside of King's Landing even knows that Viserys is dead yet.

Daemon and Rhaenyra was smart to get out of dodge after the the last family dinner. I presume that everyone left their dragons at Dragonstone with the exception of Rhaenys and Baela flying in from Driftmark to beat Vaemond to King's Landing.

So with Rhaenys flying to Dragonstone, that leaves 1 adult dragon (forgot about Vhagar!) and 2 young dragons on the Greens side. On the Blacks, there are now 3 adult dragons and 3 young dragons (Baela, Jacerys, and Lucerys). I wonder if Rhaena was able to hatch her egg or bond with another dragon?

Edited October 17, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[jeansheridan]

12 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If Rhaenys cooks up some Green barbecue, the doors will be closed, she will be trapped, and there will be a strong possibility that she and her dragon will be killed.  She doesn't want that.  Aegon and company are hostages.  She demonstrates that she can kill them if she isn't given a way out.

I was surprised no one shot an arrow at her but have we seen crossbows yet? Has that tech been created? We have seen scorpions on Dragonstone. I was waiting for her to take an arrow and then her dragon killed.

[Helena Dax]

I don't know what to think about Rhaenys' move. When I watched the episode, I thought that she was saying that she isn't going to be one of Alicent's pieces, that's all. (Btw, do they even have a boardgame like chess in Westeros? Because otherwise, the metaphor is so weird! ) Anyway, I'm not sure yet about Rhaenys' allegiance right now.

I really liked Aemond in this episode. He gave me different vibes... More human, maybe? He clearly loves his sister and he he won me over when he said that he reads History and Philosophy books.

That Lannister guy is starting to grow on me too.

Ser Larys, ugh! I agree that this wasn't the first time. And be careful, Alicent, because if Criston finds out, he might become apoplectic. I can picturing him yelling something like: "I thought you were different! But you're just like the others!"  He should be made Lord of the Incels.

Aegon is going to be an awful king, but I don't think he'll last.

[MrsR]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

These politics just aren't believeable to me anymore. In GoT Robert's girlfriend supposedly getting kidnapped led to a large scale rebellion that ended the Targaryen dynasty and then Ned getting killed led to the north rebelling and all out war in the seven kingdoms.

Now lords are getting murdered and imprisond left and right and nothing? Come on. I guess there is still room for fallout in the next episodes, but I see no indication of any of that happening.

Robert didn't have a dragon and neither did Robb. We're talking a different type of rebellion.

Unless you've got a dragon you've got little to none political capital.

Which is why Rheanys went and got her dragon. It's an arms race. She can still become Queen if the greens and the blacks destroy themselves. Or her grand daughters. She's got a long con going on.

No way was she going to lose her dragon. She's a classic Targaryen with some Baratheon thrown in.

It should always have been her as Queen.

Edited October 17, 2022 by MrsR

[paigow]

Now we know why every council member has a Westworld neural core on the table... 

[Cristofle]

Well, after that scene with Larys I think I'll go cleanse myself with a rewatch of the Red Wedding. Ughhhhhhhhh.

I think there was a willful blindness to Alicent here - everyone around her, including Aegon himself, is telling her the thought that Visery would have genuinely changed his mind at the last second is ludicrous, so instead of thinking "Hey, maybe I shouldn't have taken delirious ramblings that didn't make much sense this seriously", she's clinging to the insistance that he must have been serious because it was what she wanted all along. Also, that it's never occurred to her that what she claimed was true of Rhaenyra must in turn be true of HER side - that they must murder the other challenger - seems...less than believable.

I think in that last second before Rhaenys and Melys broke through the floor, there was the tiniest glimmer of Aegon realizing what the taste of ultimate power could taste like, and I think that's extremely dangerous to literally everyone. The fact that he had enough self-awareness to understand he wouldn't be a good ruler and his father never would have truly wished for it was the one thing keeping him only a danger to whatever girl was unfortunate enough to be standing close to him instead of everyone, and now that's gone. Aegon has no love lost for any member of his family that I can see, so I include them in the ones who are in danger. 

I don't know why people don't listen to Helaena more, heh. Once again, she flinched at being touched by Alicent - I wonder what she sees when she looks at her mother, because it doesn't seem to be anything good. 

I'm so sick of Criston. Beyond ready for him to die.

Rhaenys may later regret only wiping out the small folk in her exit. 

[jeansheridan]

16 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

really liked Aemond in this episode. He gave me different vibes... More human, maybe? He clearly loves his sister and he he won me over when he said that he reads History and Philosophy books.

Me too. And the actor playing Aemon is sympathetic in his scenes. Unlike Joffrey we don't see him committing his crimes just the horrible aftermath. So when he shows that he knows he would be a shite king and asks his mother if she loves him, it weirdly makes me feel pity for him. Whereas I hated Joffrey from the start.

Aemond did one audacious thing and lost an eye. Otherwise he seems kind of okay? Emo sure, but he has prepared himself for war and leadership. He just needs to keep giving his brother drinks and hope the liver gives out. Or he falls off his dragon. Surely a Targ has fallen off a dragon?

Edited October 17, 2022 by jeansheridan

[MrsR]

20 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So with Rhaenys flying to Dragonstone, that leaves 3 young dragons on the Greens side.

Vaghar, Aemond's dragon, is the oldest most experienced dragon. And the biggest dragon.

[AntFTW]

The blonde child that the twins see in the child fighting pits, are we to assume that is a Targaryen bastard child?

[benteen]

Great episode with a bad ending. Seriously, Rhaenys has a chance to put an end to this before war breaks out and doesn't do so.

I'm tired of hearing how Rhaenys should have been queen. It was bullshit sexism that cost her the crown but considering Viserys gave the Realm thirty years of peace, it turned out to be the right decision. What did Rhaenys do when she had a chance to prevent a war. She trampled a bunch of small smallfolk to death with her dragon and spared Aegon. Why? Because she was a mother. Well, she certainly didn't care about the mothers she TRAMPLED to death with her dragon and just ensured a lot more orphans will be created now. She ultimately proved she is no different than Daemon Targaryean otlr Otto Hightower. And why...because the showrunners wanted to give her "agency" because they are still apologizing for the way they treated female characters in Game of Thrones. Worst scene of the season.  Like the Targaryean historians I'll just pretend it never happened. 

It was a great episode. The stupidity of how Rhaenys was written aside, Eve Best is a fantastic actress. The actor playing Aemond (Ewan Mitchell) is killing it. Very compelling. I didn't realize until just now he was on The Last Kingdom. Graham McTovrish does a lot with very little screen time. The episode did a great show showing how the powers in this world respond to a quick-moving event.  They did it without showing a bunch of their characters too but that has always been a strength of this franchise.

Edited October 17, 2022 by benteen

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The blonde child that the twins see in the child fighting pits, are we to assume that is a Targaryen bastard child?

Yes. One of the twins explicitly mentioned that there are several bastards...

[AntFTW]

Just now, paigow said:

Yes. One of the twins explicitly mentioned that there are several bastards...

I clearly wasn't paying attention that well 🤣

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

That's Westerosi logic though. There's a premium on bloodlines. So even though Aegon is a drunken, rapist wastrel, he's a "pure" Targaryen. It's actually a lot like the ancient Egyptian pharaoh's who would marry their sisters. Their spawn were sickly and inbred, but it didn't matter, it was about "pure" bloodlines.

They are both half-Targaryen. It's more to do with the cultural and religious biases against bastards than the "purity" of their bloods.

[iMonrey]

I didn't get why there seemed to be a race between Criston Cole and the Twin Brothers to find Aegon. Criston was looking for Alicent and the Twins were instructed to bring Aegon directly to Otto. Why the competition? Alicent and Otto both wanted the same thing.

Quote

So with Rhaenys flying to Dragonstone, that leaves 3 young dragons on the Greens side. On the Blacks, there are now 3 adult dragons and 3 young dragons (Baela, Jacerys, and Lucerys).

What happened to Laenor's dragon? Did he manage to take it with him? Also, who are the three dragons Team Green has? I know Aegon and Aemon both have dragons. Does Helaena have a dragon? I can't see her being much use in a fight, she seems to be on the high end of the spectrum. 

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

That's Westerosi logic though. There's a premium on bloodlines. So even though Aegon is a drunken, rapist wastrel, he's a "pure" Targaryen. It's actually a lot like the ancient Egyptian pharaoh's who would marry their sisters. Their spawn were sickly and inbred, but it didn't matter, it was about "pure" bloodlines.

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

They are both half-Targaryen. It's more to do with the cultural and religious biases against bastards than the "purity" of their bloods.

I would agree more with the bias against bastards. Someone with Targaryen blood is preferable but a trueborn Targaryen is preferable to a bastard Targaryen.

[paigow]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

I didn't get why there seemed to be a race between Criston Cole and the Twin Brothers to find Aegon. Criston was looking for Alicent and the Twins were instructed to bring Aegon directly to Otto. Why the competition? Alicent and Otto both wanted the same thing.

Alicent did not want Aegon to exterminate his half-sister... something Pimp-Daddy would say.

[RobertDeSneero]

48 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I was surprised no one shot an arrow at her but have we seen crossbows yet? Has that tech been created? We have seen scorpions on Dragonstone. I was waiting for her to take an arrow and then her dragon killed.

They certainly existed by the time of GoT.  One was used to kill Ros and Tywin.

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

Alicent did not want Aegon to exterminate his half-sister... something Pimp-Daddy would say.

Yes Alicent believes Viserys wanted Aegon to take the throne but can't believe he wanted Rhaenyra and her family dead. As can be seen by his plotting with most of the small council Otto doesn't care about the king's wishes and want's Aegon to take power and have that power secured with the death of Rhaenyra

[FormerMod-a1]

Random thoughts here.... 

I found this episode simultaneously boring and annoying.

I do not think Rhaenys and dragon were "the beast beneath the boards".  They weren't beneath wood - they broke through earth and stone.  Aegon was hiding beneath boards, of a sort.  But it may not even be him.

Speaking of Aegon...  for a while there I thought(hoped) he'd off himself with that dagger.  I also had to laugh when he asked Alicent if she loved him and she didn't even answer.

I will give her props, though, for standing between Aegon and the dragon.  That was pretty badass even if it would have been ineffective against dragon fire.  I do like the contrast, though (as someone else noted), of Aegon hiding behind mama and Aemond stepping in front of Helena.  Aegon really is a little shit in so many ways.

It is interesting that Helena pulls away from her mom.  I, too, wonder what she sees/feels about Alicent.

[CountryGirl]

Having some time to process, I get why Rhaenys didn't go that far. With all the houses that are Team Green and Aegon's bastards running around Flea Bottom and

legitimate youngest son, Daeron, safe in OldTown

, killing them wouldn't have prevented a war over the succession IMO. In fact, it would hand Team Green the moral high ground on a silver platter and probably have more support for their side. Also, nothing we have seen from Rhaenys this season shows wiping out an entire family is in her character.

Being a kingslayer/kinslayer is huge in their world. Corlys isn’t around to protect her from the fallback nor is her son. 

Even if she barbecued  everyone on the dais, she would still have the bannermen to contend with. Rhaenys was the rightful heir to the throne and even though it has to still sting that but for her having a vagina, she'd be sitting on the Iron Throne, she is not going to wipe out a whole family, and yes, that would mean killing innocent children,  in order to accomplish that. 

So as much as I was saying "Dracaryas!" last night, it really isn't that simple, especially as House Hightower is one of the oldest in the 7 Kingdoms, as old as House Targaryen and House Valeryon, I think. Team Green has a lot of support and many, many bannerman to come to their aid. Yes, Team Black could wipe out everyone who isn't them/unwilling to bend the knee as they would hold the advantage with more literal fire power (dragons) but unless they are willing to go scorched earth and rule over ashes, ala Dany, dragons aren't everything. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Oh, and one more thing  Why did no one say, even to/amongst themselves that Alicent's Aegon is not the only Aegon?  Even in a "if this is even true, he is not the only Aegon.."  Of course, she wouldn't think or say that, nor Otto and the plotting council members, but no one else?  Even to themselves? I know it's not the point and wouldn't change allegiances that are already made, it's just annoying to me, though.

[tennisgurl]

8 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

It is interesting that Helena pulls away from her mom.  I, too, wonder what she sees/feels about Alicent.

Maybe Helena knows something about Alicent that we don't know? Or, more likely, something that Alicent will do much later on? Alicent is still at least somewhat sympathetic, at least in not wanting to murder her former bestie, but I can easily see her going over the edge. 

[Oscirus]

That rhaenys stunt pulled me out of the show. Its gonna take a minute. You couldve ended the on-coming war right then and there and since we know that commoners dont matter to her, the only nice person you would've lost is Helena. 

As a show-watcher, good job being stupid, but as an objective viewer, wtf!  If you wasnt willing to kill the royal family, fly out the front door. Shows of strength mean nothing, you have a dragon, we know how strong you are.

Another thing of interesting is watching otto and Alicent work against each other twice. First with Aemond then in terms of white worm. Honestly Im going to be interested in seeing how this war isnt just a black slaughter. Take Aemond and criston off that team and they have nothing while team black has all the advantages at the moment

[FnkyChkn34]

Apologies for coming here late and not having time to read all of the comments already posted.

But leave it to Ned Gowan and Dougal MacKenzie to be the only ones to know and speak the truth!  Will Dougal, I mean Lord Commander of the King's Guard Ser Westerling, now join Team Black?   

I wondered what Raenys was waiting for, but I didn't realize that they were having the coronation ceremony over the dragon pit?  No wonder it didn't take her long after she finally made her move to leave.  But they all should have been toast.

9 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

It is interesting that Helena pulls away from her mom.  I, too, wonder what she sees/feels about Alicent.

Is Heleana not autistic?  She may not like human touch in general.

[CountryGirl]

I do have to say, seeing Eve Best as Rhaenys astride her dragon and wearing armor was everything.

And I'm so happy Meleys escaped because at the end of the day, I care the most about the dragons.

[ChicksDigScars]

I was soooo pissed. I looked forward to this all week and right off the bat, I noticed that Matt Smith and Emma D'Arcy were not in the opening credits. All I thought was "Fuck me. A full hour of insufferable fucking Hightowers?"

I don't even want to talk about the foot thing. Ewwwww. 

Can Ser Criston and Alicent just get it over with now that the King is dead? He clearly needs to get laid again. He's backed up.

And Rhaenys...WHYYYYY?! A Hightower BBQ would have made an entire show dedicated to them worth it. 

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Having some time to process, I get why Rhaenys didn't go that far. With all the houses that are Team Green and Aegon's bastards running around Flea Bottom and

  Reveal spoiler

legitimate youngest son, Daeron, safe in OldTown

, killing them wouldn't have prevented a war over the succession IMO. In fact, it would hand Team Green the moral high ground on a silver platter and probably have more support for their side. Also, nothing we have seen from Rhaenys this season shows wiping out an entire family is in her character.

Being a kingslayer/kinslayer is huge in their world. Corlys isn’t around to protect her from the fallback nor is her son. 

Even if she barbecued  everyone on the dais, she would still have the bannermen to contend with. Rhaenys was the rightful heir to the throne and even though it has to still sting that but for her having a vagina, she'd be sitting on the Iron Throne, she is not going to wipe out a whole family, and yes, that would mean killing innocent children,  in order to accomplish that. 

So as much as I was saying "Dracaryas!" last night, it really isn't that simple, especially as House Hightower is one of the oldest in the 7 Kingdoms, as old as House Targaryen and House Valeryon, I think. Team Green has a lot of support and many, many bannerman to come to their aid. Yes, Team Black could wipe out everyone who isn't them/unwilling to bend the knee as they would hold the advantage with more literal fire power (dragons) but unless they are willing to go scorched earth and rule over ashes, ala Dany, dragons aren't everything. 

Even with that, team green loses 3 dragon and the brains behind their operation. At best youd have a dany season 1 situation except with even less support that she had.  Once Rhaenys was on the throne, there was no taking her off. 

[Helena Dax]

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe Helena knows something about Alicent that we don't know? Or, more likely, something that Alicent will do much later on? Alicent is still at least somewhat sympathetic, at least in not wanting to murder her former bestie, but I can easily see her going over the edge. 

That poor girl has probably had visions of her mother doing the feet thing with Larys. I wouldn't want Alicent to touch me either.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Really, Otto and company have been plotting to put Aegon on the throne for decades and poor innocent Alicent has no idea? Exactly how stupid is she supposed to be? Also, Daemon and Rhaenyra see that Viserys is at death's door and yet seem to have no plans whatsoever to quickly try to take over once he kicks the bucket. Once again, freaking Cersei was a better plotter than all those fools. And she wouldn't be dumb enough to think she could replace the chosen heir to the throne without having to kill a lot of people in the process. Or think that anyone who wasn't on her side already would believe this death bed wish nonsense that miraculously only she got to witness.

If Aegon doesn't want to be king, he can, you know, abdicate. Most of his faction would probably be relieved to have his (relatively) sane brother on the throne instead.

So, Rhaenys, trampling all those civilians was worth it for a cool final scene? Sure, it was cool but what exactly was the purpose of her showing up and doing nothing but posture threateningly? I can understand trampling "commoners" if it were for achieving a goal, any goal but this seemed more like the usual Hollywood cool but nonsensical "shocking" twist.

Goodness gracious, the actor who plays Criston is terrible. Or maybe the character can't have more than one facial expression because of the magical portrait in the attic that keeps him young.

Otto: Lord Commander Westerling, go and apprehend (read: kill them and then tell my dumb daughter they fell down some stairs) Rhaenyra, her husband and her kids, . Obviously you and whatever bunch of randos come with you can totally defeat her army and her family's dragons. Somehow.

Yes, Otto, this plan would have totally worked if only that guy had recognised your authority. Not. Also, why did you let the guy go?

Who was the black dude in the Council meeting early on?

[iMonrey]

Quote

Yes Alicent believes Viserys wanted Aegon to take the throne but can't believe he wanted Rhaenyra and her family dead. As can be seen by his plotting with most of the small council Otto doesn't care about the king's wishes and want's Aegon to take power and have that power secured with the death of Rhaenyra

Yes, but so what if Otto got to him first? It's not as if Alicent wouldn't have had time to speak to Aegon before the coronation. They have to send someone over to Dragonstone and - oh yeah - they have dragons over there so it's not going to be easy to take Rhaenyra by force. That's why I didn't get the whole "race to find Aegon" competition between Otto and Alicent. It's not as if they had Rhaenyra right there in a prison cell or anything. Or that Otto would be able to prevent Alicent from seeing Aegon or talking to him if he found him first. 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Aemond

Smiles.  But who will control Aemond?

[benteen]

15 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

So, Rhaenys, trampling all those civilians was worth it for a cool final scene? Sure, it was cool but what exactly was the purpose of her showing up and doing nothing but posture threateningly? I can understand trampling "commoners" if it were for achieving a goal, any goal but this seemed more like the usual Hollywood cool but nonsensical "shocking" twist.

It was pure dick swinging on Rhaenys part and bad writing by the show.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, Athena5217 said:

For Alicent’s part, I think she is too naive to consider how horrible Aegon could be as king. She probably thinks if she prays enough it will be okay.

I agree with many of your thoughts but not this one.  She knows he's a rapist, she knows what Aegon puts her own daughter through.  By now she most likely knows he has little bastards running around and perhaps even about the child fighting pits.

I think she's more concerned about what will happen to her children if Rhaenyra becomes Queen so goes along with Aegon being crowned.

46 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I do not think Rhaenys and dragon were "the beast beneath the boards".  They weren't beneath wood - they broke through earth and stone.  Aegon was hiding beneath boards, of a sort.  But it may not even be him.

I disagree on this one.  Are Dreamers literal (boards vs stone) in their visions?  I don't know but Aegon was inside that stone contraption, not under it per my take.

40 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

Oh, and one more thing  Why did no one say, even to/amongst themselves that Alicent's Aegon is not the only Aegon?  Even in a "if this is even true, he is not the only Aegon.." 

Exactly.  I keep wondering when someone will put together the fact there is more than one Aegon.  Or why Alicent didn't wonder herself about Viserys' other mention of the prophecy since she truly didn't understand & probably assumed it was milk of the poppy speaking.

[ChicksDigScars]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

It is interesting that Helena pulls away from her mom.  I, too, wonder what she sees/feels about Alicent.

Besides the obvious, which is that her mother sold her out to her rapist brother in marriage. I'd hate her ass, too. Yeah, she may be Queen now, but having to be married to a brother that you know is a violent, using piece of shit, perhaps not worth it. 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

They certainly existed by the time of GoT.  One was used to kill Ros and Tywin.

That's what I was thinking but maybe it hasn't been invented yet in this era. It would be cool to see some tech differences. Just to acknowledge the different eras.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I do have to say, seeing Eve Best as Rhaenys astride her dragon and wearing armor was everything.

And I'm so happy Meleys escaped because at the end of the day, I care the most about the dragons.

Right there with you even though it seems many here didn't enjoy this scene.

Eve herself said of the armor in her EW interview:

Quote

"She's packed it," Best notes of Rhaenys' battle attire. "She's traveled to King's Landing with it because it's part of her dragon-riding equipment. Also, probably in that moment of knowledge in episode 8, she's flying into tricky waters... She hasn't worn it for a very, very, very long time and the fact that she's wearing it means business. It's like, 'This is it. No more games.'"

From the same EW interview Eve also expounded on why Rhaenys makes the choice not torch the Greens:

Quote

"It's the pinnacle," Best says, expounding on this sequence. "It's the moment when she shows herself to be the greatest possible ruler. It was the most outrageous and explosive action of the season. In a way, it's also the most merciful and most graceful act. It's because she's so intelligent and in the end chooses to do the right thing, which is not to destroy. It's a truly forgiving moment and sort of a loving moment, in a weird way. She has all the ammunition, and the desire for revenge is so great. She's suffered so much loss, and for her own sake and on behalf of so many others, the urge to destroy is so strong. And yet the choice not to destroy becomes even stronger. That's the mark of greatness and [a] truly inspiring moment

The beast beneath the boards (my take):

Spoiler

[The Kings Foot]

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Maybe not. Otto thinks he is a brilliant chess player, but we have seen that he does not think long-term. For example, he convinced Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir to solve the immediate problem of Daemon being next in line, but he didn’t stop to consider the potential future problem Rhaenyra being heir would cause if the king having a son with another wife. Duh. He never attempted to cultivate Rhaenyra’s favor even though she was the king’s daughter and heir. Everyone knows the best manipulators play both sides.

Indeed. Otto could've positioned himself early on as Rhaenyra's strongest supporter. With the all the background patriarchy she would've had to lean on him alot to cement her succession.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I didn't get why there seemed to be a race between Criston Cole and the Twin Brothers to find Aegon. Criston was looking for Alicent and the Twins were instructed to bring Aegon directly to Otto. Why the competition? Alicent and Otto both wanted the same thing.

They want physical control of Aegon for different reasons. We saw the outcome of this when Alicent told Otto " I have Aegon, I have the final say"

38 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Otto: Lord Commander Westerling, go and apprehend (read: kill them and then tell my dumb daughter they fell down some stairs) Rhaenyra, her husband and her kids, . Obviously you and whatever bunch of randos come with you can totally defeat her army and her family's dragons. Somehow.

Who was the black dude in the Council meeting early on?

1. Black dude is the Grand Master.

2. Remember Rhaenyra doesn't know her father is dead. So will be no army and the dragons will be kept wherever. This is an assassination mission.

[LadyChaos]

I feel like Viserys is looking down from LegoLand and screaming: THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT AT ALL! YOU KNOW DAMN WELL I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS TALKING TO YOU!

Edited October 17, 2022 by LadyChaos

[Jack Shaftoe]

15 minutes ago, go4luca said:

"It's the pinnacle," Best says, expounding on this sequence. "It's the moment when she shows herself to be the greatest possible ruler. It was the most outrageous and explosive action of the season. In a way, it's also the most merciful and most graceful act. It's because she's so intelligent and in the end chooses to do the right thing, which is not to destroy. It's a truly forgiving moment and sort of a loving moment, in a weird way. She has all the ammunition, and the desire for revenge is so great. She's suffered so much loss, and for her own sake and on behalf of so many others, the urge to destroy is so strong.

I know I shouldn't be criticizing actors whose job includes always defending writers' choices even if they think said choices are nonsensical but what revenge? Exactly what have Alicent and company done to Rhaenys personally and she only very recently kind of, sort of, joined Rhaenyra's party. Why is she having a strong desire for revenge against these people? If anything, she should want to punish Rhaenyra and Daemon because she thinks they killed her son.

11 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

2. Remember Rhaenyra doesn't know her father is dead. So will be no army and the dragons will be kept wherever. This is an assassination mission.

It's a world where everyone with influence uses ravens for messages, Rhaenyra should learn about Viserys' death long before anyone not flying on a dragon can reach Dragonstone. I guess, there is some chance of catching her before she reaches it since she was in King's Landing so recently and unlike GoT seasons 7-8 they haven't discovered teleportation spells yet but but Otto said specifically "Go to Dragonstone" not "Try to catch her while she is traveling" which might have had some hope of success.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe