S01.E09: The Green Council

[Cristofle]

Actually, I'd love to see Alicent work more actively against Otto behind the scenes. Thus far, we've seen her show discomfort and distaste for Otto and Larys' ruthlessness and tendency towards murder, but she still sits back and allows it to benefit her cause and continues to work with them, so she can't be THAT bothered. I'd like Alicent more if she fully embraced one side or the other - go full Larys and own it, or work against someone like Otto (as others have said, she can't fire him, but she could try to convince Aegon to do so, not just "don't murder your sister" but otherwise be content with Otto having the exact same amount of power and influence so she can pretend her hands are clean when Otto inevitably does try to have Rhaenyra murdered). 

[The Kings Foot]

12 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

This story is written so poorly. The main thing here is that a male Targaryen must be on the Iron Throne. Okay. These Westerosi men just simply cannot abide a woman, Targaryen or otherwise, to be on the Iron Throne, so let her son inherit it. But wait, We want the right Targaryen to be on the throne; one whose father was Targaryen is optimal!  Cause we don't want no female Targaryen running things around here! Her girl cooties will even infect her sons!  This is like watching bad incel fanfic. 

Rhaenyra's sons are part Targaryen; so are Alicent's sons! This is why this whole situation is so nonsensical.  If Alicent wanted Aegon II to be Rhaenyra's heir as opposed to her own son, it probably would have been cool but Rhaenyra has to be Queen first.  This whole war is starting because the men around the King didn't want a woman running them. The only roadblock to any type of peaceful solution is not having a penis.

Its using real life events life  like the English Anarchy and the Hundred Years War as its basis. 

1. In the English Anarchy  the nobles swore to follow the King's daughter Matilda but on his death crowned her cousin Stephen  instead. leading to a 15 year  civil war.  The negotiated outcome left Stephen as King but he names Matilda's son his heir. 

2. In 1317 the French King died and a grand council of nobles was called to choose between his brother or his daughter.  They chose his brother. 

   Just 11 years later in 1328 the French King dies.  The English King Edward III was the closest descendent of the late French King  being his nephew via the King's sister.    However,  the French nobility brought up the Salic Law ( a law which had not been used in 500 years ! ) to declare that not only could a woman not succeed, but succession could not pass through a woman.  This led to the Hundred Years War as the English Kings tried to claim the throne of France. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Actually, I'd love to see Alicent work more actively against Otto behind the scenes. Thus far, we've seen her show discomfort and distaste for Otto and Larys' ruthlessness and tendency towards murder, but she still sits back and allows it to benefit her cause and continues to work with them, so she can't be THAT bothered. I'd like Alicent more if she fully embraced one side or the other - go full Larys and own it, or work against someone like Otto (as others have said, she can't fire him, but she could try to convince Aegon to do so, not just "don't murder your sister" but otherwise be content with Otto having the exact same amount of power and influence so she can pretend her hands are clean when Otto inevitably does try to have Rhaenyra murdered). 

I think in this episode we start to see a shift in that. Before this episode, Ali thought that Otto was in her corner and they were all moving forward under the light of the Seven.

This episode she finally learned that Otto doesn't particularly care about doing what's right, only what will secure power. And so there's a break between them.

That led to the competition to find Aegon. As far as we know, Ali has really only a few assets on her side: Cris, Larys, the love of the smallfolk maybe, and her children. She delegated the task of finding Aegon to Cris and then Aemond joined in. People have been asking why did she do that. Well, because there was the rift in agendas between her and Otto and she wanted to make sure the "let's try diplomacy first" agenda won out. 

Hopefully there is more of that friction in Team Green. 

I think it is an interesting contrast that she knows that violence is necessary to decapitate the spy network and immediately OKs it rather than try some more moral means (buying it out, feeding it disinformation, negotiating with the head, etc.) but she is reluctant to just have Rhae and co. killed when the stakes are so much higher and when there's little reason to think that diplomacy will work.

I don't think Ali thinks her hands are clean (in contrast to her feet, heyo!). Nor could the hands of someone who is adjacent to the Iron Throne be clean. She has to know that she's doing things that are at least questionable: enlisting two killers in her service, condoning the imprisonment of her cousin, putting a sadistic rapist on the throne, asking people to break their oaths to her husband, etc. She seemingly just can rationalize all that, whether it's because she's powerhungry, she thinks it's what the Seven wants, she now thinks it is what Viserys wants, or her relationship with Rhae is so bitter and twisted that she wants to keep Rhae from the throne, or some other reason(s).

[The Kings Foot]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

. 

I think it is an interesting contrast that she knows that violence is necessary to decapitate the spy network and immediately OKs it rather than try some more moral means (buying it out, feeding it disinformation, negotiating with the head, etc.) but she is reluctant to just have Rhae and co. killed when the stakes are so much higher and when there's little reason to think that diplomacy will work.

I don't think Ali thinks her hands are clean (in contrast to her feet, heyo!). Nor could the hands of someone who is adjacent to the Iron Throne be clean. She has to know that she's doing things that are at least questionable: enlisting two killers in her service, condoning the imprisonment of her cousin, putting a sadistic rapist on the throne, asking people to break their oaths to her husband, etc. She seemingly just can rationalize all that, whether it's because she's powerhungry, she thinks it's what the Seven wants, she now thinks it is what Viserys wants, or her relationship with Rhae is so bitter and twisted that she wants to keep Rhae from the throne, or some other reason(s).

I think we also have to wonder if shes had to deliberately use Larys' services   to eliminate people.  Not just by accident with the Strongs. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

22 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Its using real life events life  like the English Anarchy and the Hundred Years War as its basis. 

Yeah, if anything the opposition to Rhaenyra should have been even stronger if, as mentioned multiple times, everyone thinks her children are not her husband's. If someone doesn't like the misogynistic attitude of the characters, that's perfectly fine but this doesn't make the show badly written in itself. It would have been badly written if it were set is, say, 21st century Finland and the average person were still violently opposed to women in power.

[mrspidey]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:59 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

But there was also the commander of the kings guard there. How he didn't immediatly chop his head off can only be described with "massive plot armor".

These politics just aren't believeable to me anymore. In GoT Robert's girlfriend supposedly getting kidnapped led to a large scale rebellion that ended the Targaryen dynasty and then Ned getting killed led to the north rebelling and all out war in the seven kingdoms.

Neither Aerys II nor Joffrey had dragons. Rebellion is much harder when the other side has dragons because there is a very real chance that your home base might get melted, Harrenhal-style, by a single dragon rider.. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by mrspidey

[proserpina65]

OMG, so many thoughts. 

First, that was fucking fantastic. 

Second, Rhaenys is a badass.  Okay, yeah, so many issues could've been solved with one "dracarys" but I get why she didn't.  For one thing, she's better than that, and for another, I think she recognizes something in Alicent which she sees in herself, only undeveloped and trapped.  If it had just been Aegon, she'd have done it, but I don't think she could kill someone who is what she might have been if she'd been less of a bold person.

Third, I think Alicent truly believes that Viserys' last words meant he wanted their son to be king.  She's wrong, of course, but I don't doubt the sincerity of her belief, however misguided it is.  I also think she really did care for him, as much as she could.  And it's nice to see she still has some boundaries, but she's trapped and can't really do anything.

Fourth, if Ser Criston hadn't been there, Aemond absolutely would've agreed to Aegon heading off to Essos.  Probably would've taken him to the docks himself.  And then killed him, of course.  Although he's in no way a good person, I still think Aemond would've made a better king than Aegon.  He has an understanding of what being king actually means, he's made an effort to educate himself and most importantly, he's disciplined.  I still really like the character, again not because he's a good person, but because he's interesting and complex, which is more than can be said for most of the people I think the show wants me to like.

Fifth, Ser Criston is the horrible, Larys is still creepy as all get out, and even still, Otto Hightower is still absolutely the worst person in Westeros as always.  I suspect he's in for a rude awakening, though, if he thinks he's going to be able to control Aegon, who might not have wanted to be king but he learned to love the adulation really quickly.

Oh, and I really didn't need to know about the foot fetish thing AT ALL.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:10 PM, Oscirus said:

Criston calm your ass down. Jesus! That dude absolutely did not have to die you psycho.

Well, actually he did, at least from the viewpoint of the conspirators.  For the same reason they aren't wrong about what will happen if Rhaenyra and her children live - they'll become a focus for rebellion.  But that doesn't mean that wasn't brutal as hell.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:18 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Rhaenys has always shown herself to be a nice, decent person. Her skipping out was very true to character.

It will, I'm sure, come back to bite her in the ass, but I agree.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:28 PM, Diapason Untuned said:

Also Criston Cole: Spoiled c***

This show and GOT has always used c*** in the non-gendered British way.  As in, Criston Cole is a nasty c*** himself.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:29 PM, ShannaB said:

I knew right away that The Queen's Lady-in-Waiting, Tayla, was signaling the King's death when she lit those candles in the window.

That never dawned on me.  Now I feel stupid because, yes, absolutely, that makes perfect sense.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:40 PM, snickers said:

I don’t get why that one lord didn’t just send a raven? But Otto probably would have intercepted it anyway-too bad all of them got killed 

Have we seen them use ravens on the show?  Not that they couldn't but I don't remember seeing any.  But yeah, I did wonder about that.

[proserpina65]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:20 PM, CountryGirl said:

She can take care of her own needs.

I imagine no one has ever told her that.

On 10/16/2022 at 11:47 PM, ybrik said:

I took this to mean that she didn’t realize that Otto had made plans to have Rhaenyra and her kids killed and to take the crown through violent means. It seems she thought they would be able to basically force Rhaenyra to give up her claim by having the kids proclaimed bastards or that eventually even Viserys would step in. Apparently Viserys wasn’t the only one willfully ignorant. Alicent seemed so worry about what Rhaenyra would have to do to Alicent’s kids to become queen that she didn’t realize the same applied the other way. 

I agree.  It's not realistic given what we know about Westeros and the people involved, and she should know that, but she's capable of self-delusion.  I think she honestly never considered what might happen when Viserys died.

On 10/17/2022 at 12:13 AM, paigow said:

Did Otto execute the other rebellious nobles? Or just the guy trying to escape?

They're probably in the dungeon awaiting execution.

[blackwing]

Maybe it's been a while since I've seen GoT, but I don't ever recall hating people as much as I hate some of the people here on HotD.  Alicent, Larys, Otto, Aemond, Criston Cole, etc.

Alicent hears only what she wants to hear.  She's been Queen for 20 years and she knows nothing of the family's history?  Has she never heard of Aegon the Conqueror?  Viserys talked about Aegon and the prophecy and the Song of Ice and Fire and the Prince that was Promised.  Has she EVER heard Viserys referring to her Aegon with any of these terms?  And yet she's all "it was his dying wish".

And why would Rhaenyra not have been immediately informed?  Surely there are people loyal to her at court.  Someone should have sent a raven right away to Dragonstone.  I get it... without this alleged "dying declaration", there is no show since Rhaenyra would become Queen and there is no conflict.  But it still annoys.

I'm kind of surprised that Aemond did not kill Aegon and assume the throne himself.

What was the point of Rhaenys stomping into court on her dragon, crushing some people to death, only to just take off.  I can't have been the only one yelling "DRACARYS" over and over hoping that the dragon would hear me through the TV screen.  I wanted all of them (except maybe the sister/wife of Aegon) to burn.

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

And why would Rhaenyra not have been immediately informed?  Surely there are people loyal to her at court.  Someone should have sent a raven right away to Dragonstone. 

.

1. They made a point of showing that the guy trying to leave was hung and the rest of them are in the dungeons.

2.  Im realizing people think ravens are like cellphones where everyones got one in their pocket    . Theyre more like old time telegraph and telegrams where you to an operater to send a message.   You have to go to a maester to send a raven and the Grand Maester is part of this conpiracy.

[Cristofle]

48 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Although he's in no way a good person, I still think Aemond would've made a better king than Aegon.  He has an understanding of what being king actually means, he's made an effort to educate himself and most importantly, he's disciplined. 

As it stands now, he almost certainly would. Aemond is smarter than Aegon, more disciplined than Aegon, and at least from what we know now, NOT a serial rapist. The bar is not high, lol, but Aemond would be a superior ruler to Aegon from what we've seen so far. It could change - Aemond behaved in a really stupid and careless manner as a child when he got one of his first tastes of real power, but one hopes he learned from that experience. We'll see. 

[proserpina65]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:42 AM, aghst said:

She could have killed Amond for stealing her daughter's dragon, which should have gone to one of her grand daughters.

Can we stop with the dragon stealing crap?  Vhagar was there for the claiming.  Rhaena could've tried but didn't.  Too bad.  Aemond having the guts to try and succeeding wasn't stealing anything.

On 10/17/2022 at 1:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Don't you just hate it when you are getting coronated and your aunt (I think?  It's hard to tell with this family!) just has to bust through the chapel floor with her big ass dragon?!  Family can be so annoying at times!

🤣

On 10/17/2022 at 3:30 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Now Cristen is getting away with murdering a lord? What are these writers smoking?

He's getting away with this because the person basically in charge at that point, Otto, was fine with it, if not actually ordering it.  Which actually makes perfect sense in the situation.

On 10/17/2022 at 3:59 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Now lords are getting murdered and imprisond left and right and nothing? Come on. I guess there is still room for fallout in the next episodes, but I see no indication of any of that happening.

This is all happening within a few hours of the discovery of the king's death, among those with a great deal to gain from the plot.  The fall-out wouldn't be happening that quickly anyway.

On 10/17/2022 at 4:29 AM, Dac22 said:

I like Eve Best, and she's great in the role, but her saying that scene showed why Rhaenys would make the best ruler and how merciful she is makes me laugh given Rhaenys massacred a ton of innocent people.

Keep in mind that it's all relative to the other potential rulers in Westeros, all of whom would be much worse.  No one of the ruling class gives a tinker's damn about the small folk here.  No one.

On 10/17/2022 at 5:55 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Daemon has gone all in on police brutality, murdered his wife, beat an innocent messenger, murdered that poor Velaryon servant, and is probably still the most loved character in the show.

A lot of that has to do with the character actually DOING something, unlike a lot of the other characters for at least the first half of the season.  Inert characters are much less interesting in comparison.

On 10/17/2022 at 5:55 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Most of the lords didn't give a damn about Lyanna running off.  They rebelled because Aerys had been going nuts for years and because he killed the important lords.  If the Lord Paramount of the North could be executed on a whim then no one was safe, and even then large chunks of the realm still rallied behind the Targs.  A few minor lords getting killed and locked up isn't going to be enough, especially since dragons are still in play.

Exactly.  The rebellion ultimately was about Aerys' madness and unfitness to rule for everyone except the Starks and Robert Baratheon.

On 10/17/2022 at 7:05 AM, Haleth said:

where did she get the armor?

Presumably riding armor gets stored in the dragon pit storage rooms?

[The Kings Foot]

7 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

As it stands now, he almost certainly would. Aemond is smarter than Aegon, more disciplined than Aegon, and at least from what we know now, NOT a serial rapist. The bar is not high, lol, but Aemond would be a superior ruler to Aegon from what we've seen so far. It could change - Aemond behaved in a really stupid and careless manner as a child when he got one of his first tastes of real power, but one hopes he learned from that experience. We'll see. 

58 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Although he's in no way a good person, I still think Aemond would've made a better king than Aegon.  He has an understanding of what being king actually means, he's made an effort to educate himself and most importantly, he's disciplined.  I still really like the character, again not because he's a good person, but because he's interesting and complex, which is more than can be said for most of the people I think the show wants me to like.

Depends on the meaning of better  and superior

Aemond would be a more decisive King but he has more potential to cause greater destruction and death

Edited October 18, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Jack Shaftoe]

9 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

2.  Im realizing people think ravens are like cellphones where everyones got one in their pocket    . Theyre more like old time telegraph and telegrams where you to an operater to send a message.   You have to go to a maester to send a raven and the Grand Maester is part of this conpiracy.

If Rhaenyra and Daemon don't have multiple agents ready to send word by raven immediately when Viserys kicks the bucket then they are just as conveniently clueless as Alicent "You are trying to put my son on the throne, dad? This is brand new information!" Hightower. The Grand Maester can't control every rando with a rookery and with their money and influence Rhaenyra and Daemon should easily be able to suborn a maester or two to their cause anyway.

[Cristofle]

5 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Aemond would be a more decisive King but he has more potential to cause greater destruction and death

That's possible, in that incompetence can sometimes be the only protection from an otherwise out of control tyrant, but I DO think Aegon is capable of causing widespread destruction and death once he gets a real taste of being on the throne. However, his general lack of interest in being king might be some level of protection against his worst instincts, which would not be an issue with Aemond, who would be much more invested and intelligent. 

Really, the best king or queen would be a much more decisive and disciplined version of Viserys, which thus far doesn't describe anyone in line to the throne that we know, lol. 

[The Kings Foot]

10 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If Rhaenyra and Daemon don't have multiple agents ready to send word by raven immediately when Viserys kicks the bucket then they are just as conveniently clueless as Alicent "You are trying to put my son on the throne, dad? This is brand new information!" Hightower.

The Grand Maester can't control every rando with a rookery and with their money and influence Rhaenyra and Daemon should easily be able to suborn a maester or two to their cause anyway.

1. Well R and D have not been shown to pro-active regarding the succession at all.

2.  Thats not how raven messaging works. You dont  tell the raven where to go.  Ravens are reared at each of the major houses and then moved to new locations.  When you send a message , the raven is simply  returning to where they were born.  In other words only the Maesters Citadel has the resources to rear ravens across Westeroes and  move them about. 

Rando with a rookery wouldnt be able to send his ravens anywhere. They would only return home. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[iMonrey]

Quote

It was a race to see who would ultimately control the new King.  Alicent knew that Otto would have Aegon cosign all kinds of heinous shyt if he had Aegon's ear.

It was a metaphorical race then, and it didn't work for me. Are we to assume that either Alicent or Otto would have seized Aegon and kept him secluded from the other, and been in his ear right up until the coronation? And to what end? Would they actually have been able to prevent the other from access to him? Even after the coronation? As we saw, nothing had actually happened up until that point WRT Rhaenyra. Even if Otto had gotten there first and talked Aegon into issuing a death order Alicent could have talked him out of it at the coronation or right after. Rhaenyra and Daemon are not present so any decisions made about them would be theoretical.

I found the whole dueling search party scenario a chaotic and unnecessary mess.

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

In other words only the Maesters Citadel has the resources to rear ravens across Westeroes and  move them about. 

Again, nothing is stopping Rhaenyra from bribing a maester or two, even if we are to assume that no one except the maesters can figure out how to train ravens (or pigeons for that matter) how to carry messages. There seem to be plenty of maester dropouts who would be willing to do it too.

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Again, nothing is stopping Rhaenyra from bribing a maester or two, even if we are to assume that no one except the maesters can figure out how to train ravens (or pigeons for that matter) how to carry messages. There seem to be plenty of maester dropouts who would be willing to do it too.

 Again when have we seen Rhaenyra doing anything proactive.  Hell we havent even seen her interact  with anyone non-noble (aside from Ser Cristen)

Edited October 18, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Jack Shaftoe]

Well, yeah, Otto seems to be the only character with an actual plan of what do when the king died. My argument hinges on Rhaenyra and Daemon having two brain cells to rub together... which they often do not if the plot requires them to do nothing or do something dumb in order for it to work.

[MyArchangel]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:03 PM, AntFTW said:

I hope they don't make us wait too long for a season 2. I would like to not wait until my nonexistent grandchildren are going off to college like we had to for season 8 of GoT.

Supposedly we won't have season 2 until sometime in 2024...ugh.

On 10/16/2022 at 7:23 PM, Oscirus said:

Im more wanting to know how the fuck did she know to do that? Was that payment for keeping silent for the Strong business?

I know, right...how in the world when you have someone like Larys and he does something for you and you discuss payment does he say "Well your Grace, instead of gold or silver, all you need to do is show me your bear feet and I will just play with myself a little bit" and then she agrees to that? Alicent isn't exactly worldly. Given the shot we had of her in bed with Viserys, she didn't appear to be enjoy what was going on. In any event that was definitely one of the creepier moments that Larys had and he's just creepy to begin with. 

[The Kings Foot]

7 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Well, yeah, Otto seems to be the only character with an actual plan of what do when the king died. My argument hinges on Rhaenyra and Daemon having two brain cells to rub together... which they often do not if the plot requires them to do nothing or do something dumb in order for it to work.

True.  If they wanted to R and D couldve been informed as quickly as the White Worm was. 

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, MyArchangel said:

how in the world when you have someone like Larys and he does something for you and you discuss payment does he say "Well your Grace, instead of gold or silver

She was glad to do it because the Aegon Hush Money was breaking the bank...

[MyArchangel]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:44 PM, Dac22 said:

"And I will not believe that he said this on his deathbed, alone, with only the, the boy's mother as a witness."

The source of this information that he does not believe is Alicent. He then proceeds to bring up regicide as the "king was well". If he thinks she's lying, then it's easy to reason he thinks she's complicit in the "murder" of the king. 

Not to say what Cole did wasn't wrong, but he was certainly accusing her along with the rest.

I kept feeling as I was watching the end of Ep 8 that after she gave him milk of the poppy, that she was going to smother him with a pillow, especially when she turned her back on him and sat there....after Veymond losing his head at the gathering that morning I thought at that point anything was possible. Technically they did overdose the Viserys...they had him so doped up on milk of the poppy that he didn't know whether he was coming or going. 

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Well, actually he did, at least from the viewpoint of the conspirators.  For the same reason they aren't wrong about what will happen if Rhaenyra and her children live - they'll become a focus for rebellion.  But that doesn't mean that wasn't brutal as hell.

From what we seen, they weren't at the point of murder yet, he'd at worst have been imprisoned as evidenced by their letting that kingsguard walk out without much grumbling

[proserpina65]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:03 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

She also doesn't seem adverse to killing Rhae and co., but just doesn't want to do it as a first resort. 

Actually she DOES seem quite adverse to killing Rhaenyra and her children.  At this point anyway.

On 10/17/2022 at 10:42 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

So with Rhaenys flying to Dragonstone, that leaves 1 adult dragon (forgot about Vhagar!) and 2 young dragons on the Greens side.

Wouldn't Aegon's & Helaena's be adult by now?  Assuming that their dragons hatched from eggs when they were small, unlike Aemond's.  Not nearly as old as Vhagar or even Meleys, Caraxes and Syrax, obviously.  Maybe not Helaena's dragon, but Aegon's at least should be older than those belonging to Rhaenyra's sons or Baela.  Still a big disadvantage, though.  And of course we don't what happened to Seasmoke when Laenor took off for Essos.

23 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

And I'm so happy Meleys escaped because at the end of the day, I care the most about the dragons.

Me, too.  I am totally Team Dragons.

23 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Oh, and one more thing  Why did no one say, even to/amongst themselves that Alicent's Aegon is not the only Aegon?  Even in a "if this is even true, he is not the only Aegon.."  Of course, she wouldn't think or say that, nor Otto and the plotting council members, but no one else?  Even to themselves? I know it's not the point and wouldn't change allegiances that are already made, it's just annoying to me, though.

Are you talking about the Small Council?  Because except for Lord Beesbury and the Lord Commander of the King's Guard, they were all in on making Aegon king.  So why any of them bother to question it?

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If Aegon doesn't want to be king, he can, you know, abdicate. Most of his faction would probably be relieved to have his (relatively) sane brother on the throne instead.

Did you see his face when the small folk were "cheering" him?  He may not have wanted to be king before then, but he's not going to want to give that up now.

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

So, Rhaenys, trampling all those civilians was worth it for a cool final scene? Sure, it was cool but what exactly was the purpose of her showing up and doing nothing but posture threateningly? I can understand trampling "commoners" if it were for achieving a goal, any goal but this seemed more like the usual Hollywood cool but nonsensical "shocking" twist.

She didn't have much choice about trampling anyone.  Ser Arryk (or was it Ser Erryk?) told her they'd expect her to go to the dragon pit, so I'd think they'd have the entrance/exit heavily guarded.  Which meant leaving that way would be very difficult.  Breaking through the roof of it (I guess?) was probably the least dangerous option for her and Meleys.

22 hours ago, go4luca said:

Exactly.  I keep wondering when someone will put together the fact there is more than one Aegon.  Or why Alicent didn't wonder herself about Viserys' other mention of the prophecy since she truly didn't understand & probably assumed it was milk of the poppy speaking.

Because it really didn't matter to anyone she told at that point.  They didn't care.

22 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It's a world where everyone with influence uses ravens for messages, Rhaenyra should learn about Viserys' death long before anyone not flying on a dragon can reach Dragonstone.

Aren't the ravens in King's Landing under the control of the Grand Maester?  Who was in on Otto's plan and therefore not inclined to send a message to Dragonstone.  It's my impression overall that only the local lords have ravens, and in King's Landing, that's the king and his Hand.

Now, it's possible Myseria sent a message somehow, but we don't know if she has access to ravens.  And we also don't know whether or not Otto would know if she did.  To him, the orders made perfect sense.  He wouldn't have sent a raven to Dragonstone so therefore Rhaenyra doesn't yet know about her father's death.

[Jack Shaftoe]

9 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Ser Arryk (or was it Ser Erryk?) told her they'd expect her to go to the dragon pit, so I'd think they'd have the entrance/exit heavily guarded.  Which meant leaving that way would be very difficult.

More difficult than breaking through the roof (and thanks to plot armor not having even a scratch after that)? I highly doubt it. Who and how exactly is going to stop a dragon from exiting from the usual exit? Euron and his magical heat-seeking ballistae weren't there, after all.🙂 Nothing in the show so far indicates that stopping a dragon is a realistic possibility, especially when most guards would be busy guarding the coronation ceremony anyway. Any guard would be there to stop people from getting on the dragons in the first place, which Rhaenys managed to do without a problem off-screen, not to stop the actual dragons from leaving.

The producers wanted a cool ending for the finale and logic went out of the window. Why not, people complained about late seasons GoT but they had better ratings than the earlier seasons. Nonsensical stunts like this absolutely work.

[go4luca]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

...and even still, Otto Hightower is still absolutely the worst person in Westeros as always.  I suspect he's in for a rude awakening, though, if he thinks he's going to be able to control Aegon, who might not have wanted to be king but he learned to love the adulation really quickly.

This is exactly why I posted earlier my concerns for how pliable Aegon will remain.  Especially with his psychotic tendencies.  He's now had a taste of power.  I think it will only grow moving forward.

14 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Me, too.  I am totally Team Dragons.

Right there with you.  Please add me to the club.

22 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Because it really didn't matter to anyone she told at that point.  They didn't care.

I think it would matter to Rhaenys. Ser Harrold Westerling would be another who in turn will most likely make sure Rhaenyra and Daemon know & they will definitely care.

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If we are to accept Alicent's protestations of ignorance and innocence as honest, the inevitable conclusion is that she is, simply put, an idiot.

I don't think she's an idiot but I also don't think she's politically savvy at all.  And has a tendency to willful blindness.  So I fully believe that she didn't know what her father was plotting, at least partly because she purposefully ignored anything suggesting that he was plotting.  Also, I doubt he or any of the rest of the Small Council had any inclination to keep her in the loop.

17 hours ago, Oscirus said:

And its inconsistent with previous episodes. Almost as if the show wants us to put all the dislike we'd have for her alicent onto her other team green members.

It's inconsistent with what we know of Viserys and what other characters know of him, but not necessarily with what we know of Alicent.  She so wants her son to be king, even if she doesn't want to admit to having that ambition, that she gladly grasps at the straws offered by Viserys' deathbed rambling.  Because she desperately wants to believe he's finally changed his mind.  It fits with the portrayal of the adult Alicent.

16 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

There were anvils falling in the previous episode that Alicent had been ruling for the past six years, not Viserys.

Pretty sure that OTTO was doing the ruling with Alicent being a mere figurehead.  Alicent is not Rhaenys.

16 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

This whole war is starting because the men around the King didn't want a woman running them. The only roadblock to any type of peaceful solution is not having a penis.

And that's been pretty much the case for much of our world for most of written history.  The idea of the elite class not wanting to answer to a woman is by far the MOST sensical idea in the entire show.  I mean, it's wrong as hell but it's a well established idea.

[Chicago Redshirt]

54 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

More difficult than breaking through the roof (and thanks to plot armor not having even a scratch after that)? I highly doubt it. Who and how exactly is going to stop a dragon from exiting from the usual exit? Euron and his magical heat-seeking ballistae weren't there, after all.🙂 Nothing in the show so far indicates that stopping a dragon is a realistic possibility, especially when most guards would be busy guarding the coronation ceremony anyway. Any guard would be there to stop people from getting on the dragons in the first place, which Rhaenys managed to do without a problem off-screen, not to stop the actual dragons from leaving.

Stopping the dragon id almost certainly out of their wheelhouse. Stopping Rhaenys is more doable. We saw earlier in the season that somebody clipped Daemon while he was on dragonback. They could get lucky and hit Rhaenys.

Yes, it would have been smarter to have lined up a whole bunch of guards to keep Rhaenys from her dragon in the first place. But they had no reason to think that she got busted out by whichever-Ryk, so I can buy that she was able to get to her dragon by distracting/bribing/killing a single guard or two, while more would have been deployed near the dragon pit to fend off an escape there and that if she had attempted to go through the conventional route it would have been more difficult.

The other possible point is it might not have been about the ease of escape. It probably is about sending a message. Whether that message is "You're going to pay for locking me up," "Know that I could have burned you all alive and that none of you are safe" or what is an exercise best left to the viewer. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Actually, I'd love to see Alicent work more actively against Otto behind the scenes. Thus far, we've seen her show discomfort and distaste for Otto and Larys' ruthlessness and tendency towards murder, but she still sits back and allows it to benefit her cause and continues to work with them, so she can't be THAT bothered. I'd like Alicent more if she fully embraced one side or the other - go full Larys and own it, or work against someone like Otto (as others have said, she can't fire him, but she could try to convince Aegon to do so, not just "don't murder your sister" but otherwise be content with Otto having the exact same amount of power and influence so she can pretend her hands are clean when Otto inevitably does try to have Rhaenyra murdered). 

I hate this annoyingly passive Alicent. How could you not know that Otto is plotting? Have you ever MET your father?

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

What was the point of Rhaenys stomping into court on her dragon, crushing some people to death, only to just take off.  I can't have been the only one yelling "DRACARYS" over and over hoping that the dragon would hear me through the TV screen.  I wanted all of them (except maybe the sister/wife of Aegon) to burn.

Quote

Killing the civilians showed how Rhaenys is no different from Daemon and Otto. Sexism kept her from the Iron Throne but considering Viserys gave the Realm decades of peace, he ultimately was the right choice. At least he never crushed a bunch of smallfolk with a dragon like Rhaenys did with her dick-swinging stunt. Not finishing the job ensures that the Realm will be plunged into war and along with the civilian massacre proved she she was not worthy to sit the Iron Throne.

I loved Rhaenys and she was almost totally ruined for me in this episode which I found truly upsetting.

I guess it is a credit to the writers that I care so much about a fictional character.

Edited October 18, 2022 by qtpye

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Stopping the dragon id almost certainly out of their wheelhouse. Stopping Rhaenys is more doable. We saw earlier in the season that somebody clipped Daemon while he was on dragonback. They could get lucky and hit Rhaenys.

Yes, it would have been smarter to have lined up a whole bunch of guards to keep Rhaenys from her dragon in the first place. But they had no reason to think that she got busted out by whichever-Ryk, so I can buy that she was able to get to her dragon by distracting/bribing/killing a single guard or two, while more would have been deployed near the dragon pit to fend off an escape there and that if she had attempted to go through the conventional route it would have been more difficult.

The other possible point is it might not have been about the ease of escape. It probably is about sending a message. Whether that message is "You're going to pay for locking me up," "Know that I could have burned you all alive and that none of you are safe" or what is an exercise best left to the viewer. 

All she did was give the greens free propoganda as to why the blacks shouldnt have dragons. If they needed a reason to turn the people against the blacks, " look who killed a bunch of your people to play with their dragon, its not us who did that."

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

As it stands now, he almost certainly would. Aemond is smarter than Aegon, more disciplined than Aegon, and at least from what we know now, NOT a serial rapist. The bar is not high, lol, but Aemond would be a superior ruler to Aegon from what we've seen so far. It could change - Aemond behaved in a really stupid and careless manner as a child when he got one of his first tastes of real power, but one hopes he learned from that experience. We'll see. 

It's definitely not a high bar to clear, that's for sure.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If Rhaenyra and Daemon don't have multiple agents ready to send word by raven immediately when Viserys kicks the bucket then they are just as conveniently clueless as Alicent "You are trying to put my son on the throne, dad? This is brand new information!" Hightower. The Grand Maester can't control every rando with a rookery and with their money and influence Rhaenyra and Daemon should easily be able to suborn a maester or two to their cause anyway.

Rhaenyra, at least, hasn't shown herself to be particularly good at playing politics.  Otherwise she'd have spent more time in King's Landing learning to rule and developing relationships with houses other than Velaryon.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Are we to assume that either Alicent or Otto would have seized Aegon and kept him secluded from the other, and been in his ear right up until the coronation? And to what end?

Well, that pretty much is what happened.  Alicent had him and kept him away from his grandfather.

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Again, nothing is stopping Rhaenyra from bribing a maester or two, even if we are to assume that no one except the maesters can figure out how to train ravens (or pigeons for that matter) how to carry messages. There seem to be plenty of maester dropouts who would be willing to do it too.

Nothing is stopping her except her not actually doing anything to advance her cause.  We've seen her do pretty much bupkiss other than relying on her father's decree and the various lords' promises to HIM.

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Well, yeah, Otto seems to be the only character with an actual plan of what do when the king died.

That, we absolutely agree on.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

From what we seen, they weren't at the point of murder yet, he'd at worst have been imprisoned as evidenced by their letting that kingsguard walk out without much grumbling

They'd have killed him soon enough.  They certainly killed the lord who tried to leave that very same day.

43 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I think it would matter to Rhaenys. Ser Harrold Westerling would be another who in turn will most likely make sure Rhaenyra and Daemon know & they will definitely care.

And I'm sure none of those people buy it because they all knew Viserys.  But the men in the Small Council didn't give a fuck so why should they say anything?

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

All she did was give the greens free propoganda as to why the blacks shouldnt have dragons. If they needed a reason to turn the people against the blacks, " look who killed a bunch of your people to play with their dragon, its not us who did that."

Possibly.  Assuming Otto thinks appealing to the smallfolk is worth his time.  I guess we'll see.

[go4luca]

11 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And I'm sure none of those people buy it because they all knew Viserys.  But the men in the Small Council didn't give a fuck so why should they say anything?

Perhaps because they knew if they spoke up (even during the plotting phase), they'd end up like Beesbury.

[Jack Shaftoe]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Stopping the dragon id almost certainly out of their wheelhouse. Stopping Rhaenys is more doable. We saw earlier in the season that somebody clipped Daemon while he was on dragonback. They could get lucky and hit Rhaenys.

They could but coronations tend to be by more heavily guarded than anything else. The idea that all other exits which the dragons normal use were more dangerous options than getting through a roof, a throng of citizens and a small army of guards is grasping at straws, to put it mildly. The idea that Rhaenys wanted to send a message is far more plausible than the notion that she had no other option than to go to through the roof and kill all those bystanders. Sending a message in such a needlessly dramatic fashion doesn't portray her in the best of lights but at least it makes some sense.

Also, we saw that the actual guards at the coronation didn't attack Rhaenyra, so the notion of her being in great danger and having no choice but to do what she did wasn't exactly sold well, if that was indeed of idea of the scene.

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Rhaenyra, at least, hasn't shown herself to be particularly good at playing politics. 

Indeed but even though the show hasn't bothered to show anything of the sort, one would expect her faction to have a lot more people than her and her husband. Some of them are bound to have thought of something as simple as the necessity of knowing as quickly as possible when Viserys dies. Or maybe Otto is the only guy with the show who can understand the simplest of politics. 🙂

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Indeed but even though the show hasn't bothered to show anything of the sort, one would expect her faction to have a lot more people than her and her husband.

That's assuming she had much of a faction left in King's Landing by that time.  We certainly never saw her working to make sure any that she started with remained on her side.

But we've also only seen the events of the hours since Viserys' death from the viewpoint of those on the side of Alicent and Otto.  We will probably find out a lot more next week when we see what's happening at Dragonstone.  Including possibly that Rhaenyra and Daemon received word much more quickly than Otto believes they would.

Edited October 18, 2022 by proserpina65

[paigow]

I think the key reason that Alicent is still alive is that Laenor & Aegon are similar...

In the sense that each is a self-absorbed hedonist, unwilling to take on any responsibility.

That is the disappointed mother sympathy card  

[CountryGirl]

5 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Its using real life events life  like the English Anarchy and the Hundred Years War as its basis. 

1. In the English Anarchy  the nobles swore to follow the King's daughter Matilda but on his death crowned her cousin Stephen  instead. leading to a 15 year  civil war.  The negotiated outcome left Stephen as King but he names Matilda's son his heir. 

2. In 1317 the French King died and a grand council of nobles was called to choose between his brother or his daughter.  They chose his brother. 

   Just 11 years later in 1328 the French King dies.  The English King Edward III was the closest descendent of the late French King  being his nephew via the King's sister.    However,  the French nobility brought up the Salic Law ( a law which had not been used in 500 years ! ) to declare that not only could a woman not succeed, but succession could not pass through a woman.  This led to the Hundred Years War as the English Kings tried to claim the throne of France. 

Nodding along to all of this. I don't buy the argument that the common folk are somehow immune to the patriarchy and don't care if their ruler has a penis or not. Plus, they are honestly irrelevant as it's the nobles/bannerman whose opinions matter and while many did swear allegiance to Rhaenyra, all bets were off once Aegon II was born and Viserys was dead. Comparisons to Cersei are flawed as well because Cersei had zero fucks to give and just did as she pleased and didn't care who liked it and she had the means to do as she pleased as no one else was around to challenge her.  

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Comparisons to Cersei are flawed as well because Cersei had zero fucks to give and just did as she pleased and didn't care who liked it and she had the means to do as she pleased as no one else was around to challenge her.  

Yes. All of the presumed heirs [Tommen, Joffrey] were dead at this point... 

[aghst]

Busting through the roof is the writers trying for visual effect.

As many people have noted, there was probably a lot of collateral damage but they may not have anticipated this reaction.

They just figured it would look bad ass.

While the dragon may have hard and thick skin to break through rocks and mortar or however the floors of that great hall was built, I would think it would be very difficult for Raynys?  She didn't have a helmet?  Even if she didn't get hit on the head there would be a lot of dust that should bother her.

Now if she had the dragon blast a hole through the floor with fire and flew through, that would be more likely.

There should have been a lot of dust in that hall making it unpleasant for everyone in there.

[FormerMod-a1]

50 minutes ago, aghst said:

As many people have noted, there was probably a lot of collateral damage but they may not have anticipated this reaction.

I agree.  There are probably many people, like me, who assumed there was some collateral damage, but not a "massacre" or how ever else I've seen it described here.  I remember even noting to myself that the dragon seemed to be moving slowly and thinking that would give people time to run, as we saw so many do.  I don't recall shots of the dragon stepping and crushing anyone.  Logically, of course, I know several would be injured, but since I didn't see dead bodies scattered about, I just assumed it wasn't much. 

[paigow]

43 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't recall shots of the dragon stepping and crushing anyone. 

The swinging tail knocked several people into the pit... maybe they landed on dragon poop and survived...

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:49 AM, aquarian1 said:

It is interesting that Helena pulls away from her mom.  I, too, wonder what she sees/feels about Alicent.

I'm autistic, and if Helaena is autistic as people here have speculated, then not liking to be touched has nothing to do with how she feels about the other person.

[Cool Breeze]

So Larys is a Sole Man.

I guess that makes Alicent his Sole Provider.

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I'm autistic, and if Helaena is autistic as people here have speculated, then not liking to be touched has nothing to do with how she feels about the other person.

Very true but Helaena seems to dislike physical contact from Alicent in particular, which would seem to indicate...something?. She was fine with physical contact with Jace when he offered her his hand to dance and with Aemond too (I don't recall when that occurred but have seen it mentioned in this topic a few times).

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I don't buy the argument that the common folk are somehow immune to the patriarchy and don't care if their ruler has a penis or not. Plus, they are honestly irrelevant as it's the nobles/bannerman whose opinions matter and while many did swear allegiance to Rhaenyra, all bets were off once Aegon II was born and Viserys was dead.

The play in the street that Daemon had Rhaenyra watch gives a clue as to how the smallfolk might react to a cockless monarch.  The feelings of the smallfolk are not wholly irrelevant.  If they were, someone like the High Sparrow could never rise to power.

[ICantDoThatDave]

5 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I agree.  There are probably many people, like me, who assumed there was some collateral damage, but not a "massacre" or how ever else I've seen it described here.  I remember even noting to myself that the dragon seemed to be moving slowly and thinking that would give people time to run, as we saw so many do.  I don't recall shots of the dragon stepping and crushing anyone.  Logically, of course, I know several would be injured, but since I didn't see dead bodies scattered about, I just assumed it wasn't much. 

Just logistically, the area where the humongous dragon was now occupying used to be a floor packed with people.  Check out the shot of the doors right before the dragon appears & Alicent is smiling - look at the crowd occupying that space.  It'd be like busting up through the front 100 rows of a music concert in a large venue.  Hundreds of people would be killed/injured just in the initial appearance, much less afterwards.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:19 PM, Oscirus said:

He might just need affirmation, regardless, its its still stupid to tell the future king you dont like/love him when you're expecting to control him. Especially if its as his mother

She did the opposite. She said, "You imbecile." Meaning that of course she loves him and he's silly to doubt it.

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Very true but Helaena seems to dislike physical contact from Alicent in particular, which would seem to indicate...something?. She was fine with physical contact with Jace when he offered her his hand to dance and with Aemond too (I don't recall when that occurred but have seen it mentioned in this topic a few times).

It's different when you see it coming and it's under controlled circumstances, like offering a hand to dance. Someone touching your shoulder without asking feels bad. I don't recall Aemond touching her either.

[Colorado David]

passive casualties in this show seems to be a non-issue. while this bothers me greatly in a current mindset, maybe in this world the mindset is eh if you live to be an adult lucky you, and live each day on guard for whatever weird sh*t might come your way to snatch life from you. you coulda been a child warrior in the ring, or sold into slavery, or prostituted early on. it's a different world for them.

[jeansheridan]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:46 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Otto made me really miss Tywin Lannister. Similar type characters, but somehow Tywin Lannister was so much more likable.

Two words. Charles Dance.