S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[rhygirl720]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think she can accept Rhaenyra as heir.  What she cannot abide by in any way is Jace as Rhaenyra's heir.

I'm absolutely certain his plan for the ending was a Dany heel turn out of nowhere after a defeat of the White Walkers, with Jon ending up having to go against her.  Was there a way to do the last season in a way that pleased fans while keeping that key element?

Upon rewatch of GOT after knowing the ending, the signs were all there. They just did a horrible job of relating that story. Too rushed.

[The Kings Foot]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Aside from politics and pragmatic concerns, I think Alicent wants Aegon to make her sacrifices worth something. Losing her friendship with Rhaenyra and being broodmare to a rotting old man can't all have been for nothing. She did her part for Otto so Aegon has to do his. 

At the dinner, Alicent was ready to make peace with Rhaenyra because she was fed up with Aegon (if ever there were a time to be willing to send your son to the Night's Watch, that would be it) and Aemond was also acting the fool, and because her hatred for Rhaenyra is all tied up with their former love. (Their childhood friendship may have been the purest relationship she had aside from her own mother, and the only real friend she's made since is Larys.) But really it was too late for any true peace, and this conflict is much bigger than the personal wishes of either woman. 

When she hears her husband's drugged-up ramblings she forgets about her feelings about Aegon and hears only what she wants to hear. But it's what she wants not because she's always wanted power but because Otto set her on this path. If Rhaenyra takes the throne, Alicent's sons and grandson(s) would be in jeopardy and she'd have to accept that her entire miserable marriage and all the disrespect she endured from Viserys was pointless. The idea that Rhaenyra not only gets to have more fun, but that her own life has no reward even after Viserys's death could be maddening.

This analysis of Alicent  100%

On 10/9/2022 at 11:25 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I've always thought Alicent was in love with Rhaenyra and the way she grabbed Rhaenyra's hand towards the end of the family dinner confirmed that. There's hatred there but it's also a sick, twisted love.

I wouldnt say sick and twisted.  I think she feel betrayal. I think she resigned herself to never being able to be true to herself but thought Rhaneyra would be  in the same position and both would go through it together.  Realizing that no, Rhaenyra gets to do what ever she wants while leaving Alicent behind is probably the core of why she hated Rhaenyra. 

But whenever she gets a chance for an actual reconciliation with Rhaenyra she grabs it.  Both times R reached out to her this season-this episode and back before the whole Daemon tryst Alicent took R's effort happily. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I hate Alicent as much as the next person, but I stand by my opinion that her compassion for Dyana was about as much sympathy as anyone in Westeros will ever have towards rape between a royal and a servant girl. She believed the poor girl. Yes she was manipulative, but even today many rape cases are settled with money + an abortion. Giving Dyana a lump of gold and moon tea is more than I see Cersei or even Sansa (a victim of rape herself) doing. She also confronted Aegon later about Dyana. 

As I said, I hate Alicent, but she reacted decently to the whole Dyana situation. And Dyana probably thought she got a good deal, all things considered. The gold won't take away the trauma of course but it will mean she gets to start a new life elsewhere with that money, AND she won't have to worry about Aegon Jr.'s being born.

[Enigma X]

I dislike Alicent, but I think two things can be true of how she handled the Aegon rapist situation. I think her compassion for Dyana is equal to her desire to make sure she covers for Aegon.

[paigow]

31 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The gold won't take away the trauma of course but it will mean she gets to start a new life elsewhere with that money, AND she won't have to worry about Aegon Jr.'s being born.

A combination of Witness Protection & Witness Suppression ... like Eraser mashed up with Ray Donovan 

[Cristofle]

I'm not an Alicent fan, but I think she was sincerely upset in that scene. She knew Aegon had done it. She knew the girl was innocent. It obviously wasn't the first time - they have a system down. It didn't make the part of the scene where she terrified the girl into further silence easier to watch, but I don't think the emotion was insincere on her part. 

[nikma]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

don't know what all happened behind the scenes, but it was satisfying when they gave that big interview about doing GoT that was basically, "Yeah, we didn't know what we were doing but they gave us the job anyway, isn't that great?"

And they still made much better show than Condal 😅

But their statements are mostly taken out of context by people who have David Benioff Derangement Syndrome.

9 hours ago, snickers said:

I remember hearing about the Netflix gig but I thought that got dropped just like the Star Wars gig? If that’s not being blacklisted what is 😆 plus isn’t Netflix dropping projects left and right due to budget/the fact they spend more than they bring in 🙄and they dropped the ball being A+ writers by season 7 😉became D+ by season finale.

They are not blacklisted lol

They made the most popular show in history. They will never be blacklisted. They are doing massive show for Netflix called The Three Body Problem, which is currently in post production.

And they've had more other projects for Netflix like The Chair.

Edited October 11, 2022 by nikma

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Helena basically has the mind of a child, I doubt shed be better off marrying anybody.

Does she though? She may be disabled in some way but that doesn't mean she couldn't have a happy marriage with someone. She got trapped with a rapist ass. 

In some ways she was a very fortunate child/teen. Her family interacted with her, she had stimulation being in the castle (she didn't appear to be locked away). She was at all family events. I suspect Aemond would have been much kinder. 

I really do hope the Aemond actor will have more nuance moving forward. He seemed a bit too mustache twirling villain in this ep. Although he does have charisma. Although getting an eye-patch and awesome scar help.

[nikma]

Rhaneyra's sons and especially Daemon's daughters have no personality. They don't know what to do with them..

Jace feels like bootleg Robb Stark.

[Colorado David]

Bravo Matt Smith improvising that crown replacing. It could have ended up a blooper, but he crafted it instantly into a very touching scene. MS is aces in my book.

[Cristofle]

I love Matt. He can entertain me with so little.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

He's already got his dimensions down.  Unlike the other characters he has some respect and concern for the small folks (one thing Rhaenyra and Aegon would probably agree on is a complete disregard for commoners), clearly loved his brother despite everything, and so far appears to be a good husband to Rhaenyra.  Of course, anyone who hates the guy would consider all of this an act he's putting on - for example, he didn't help Viserys up the stairs out of affection, he did it solely because he needed him to rule against Vaemond.

Inside the royal family, Daemon's deeds are without doubt worst. He murdered his first wife and gave the order to murder some outsider in order to arrange Laenor' "death". As for his respect and concern for the small folks - does his "cleasing" in the beginning of the show prove that?

Despite all this, or perhaps because of it, he is perfect in this fantasy world. But has he qualities to win in the power game? He is ambitious, ruthless and without any troubles of conscience, but he seems to act on impulse (when he was in Viserys' good graces after the victory of Stepstones he swiftly ruined all and was again banished from the court), i.e. he lacks both self control and good judgment.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Inside the royal family, Daemon's deeds are without doubt worst. He murdered his first wife and gave the order to murder some outsider in order to arrange Laenor' "death". As for his respect and concern for the small folks - does his "cleasing" in the beginning of the show prove that?

Despite all this, or perhaps because of it, he is perfect in this fantasy world. But has he qualities to win in the power game? He is ambitious, ruthless and without any troubles of conscience, but he seems to act on impulse (when he was in Viserys' good graces after the victory of Stepstones he swiftly ruined all and was again banished from the court), i.e. he lacks both self control and good judgment.

I think Daemon shows growth, as if he has learned from his experiences. He is perhaps closer to his children. He was immediately willing to support his brother, physically and by being his executioner, acting decisively, but not impulsively. He would be a good consort and power behind a throne, at this point, I think. His willingness to make the hard decisions isn't a bad thing in this group.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hate Alicent as much as the next person, but I stand by my opinion that her compassion for Dyana was about as much sympathy as anyone in Westeros will ever have towards rape between a royal and a servant girl. She believed the poor girl. Yes she was manipulative, but even today many rape cases are settled with money + an abortion. Giving Dyana a lump of gold and moon tea is more than I see Cersei or even Sansa (a victim of rape herself) doing. She also confronted Aegon later about Dyana. 

As I said, I hate Alicent, but she reacted decently to the whole Dyana situation. And Dyana probably thought she got a good deal, all things considered. The gold won't take away the trauma of course but it will mean she gets to start a new life elsewhere with that money, AND she won't have to worry about Aegon Jr.'s being born.

I agree with everything you said. For the record I don’t hate Alicent, I disagree with some of the things she’s done, but I don’t hate her. 
 

What else was Alicent supposed to do to help Dyana (within the rules of her culture?). That gold was probably more than a year’s wages for her, and she won’t have to worry about a pregnancy. Alicent tried to make things right and fix her son’s mistakes, and she confronted him about it- she doesn’t think his behavior is okay.  And neither would Viserys if he was well. Aegon may have been indulged being the king’s first born son, but neither parents modeled that type of behavior for him (and I highly doubt any of his tutors did either). He’s just rotten, and his Mommy knows it. Parents know their kids. 
 

[Affogato]

I think, in this episode, we had a hint that everything could have gone smoothly.

Alicent is moral and loving and knows the second of his name, the serial rapist, is a horrible person. She also has bad qualities, she may not actually have mellowed, but she is clearly learning she needs help.

She could easily back Rhaenerys and stand up to her father, with evidence, if he suports Aegon.  She could tell him how awful and impulsive Aegon is.

Alicent has spent years learning the system, which Rhae has not, and could be a wonderful advisor, if not an actual hand of the Queen. Daemon has Rhaes back and her kids seem to be okay.

But Alicent happened to be there for Viserys last words and thinks he wants Aegon to fulfill this prophecy, so she will go with that, and things will go to hell.

[Scarlett45]

Why Rhaenyra has been in Dragonstone all these years rather than in King’s Landing actually prepping to rule and helping manage her father’s care*? I kinda think it’s because she’s a fucking coward and emotionally lazy. It’s HARD having Alicent hate her, it’s HARD having people whisper about her kids all the time (if she was concerned about the kids hearing that, have them fostered somewhere , or send them to Dragonstone and visit regularly), it’s HARD seeing her father sick and frail (I know we have seen it in our families, the caregiver steps up and takes care of the sick/disabled person, and rightfully is a little resentful when the person who hasn’t been there or done any of the day to day work steps in with a bunch of opinions). 

Rhaneyra couldve been setting up her own power base in King’s Landing but instead she was happy in Dragonstone with Daemon, his eldest (that was his eldest right?) and their sons. Which would be FINE if she just wanted to be Princess of Dragonstone, and let her little brother have the throne, but Rhaenrya hasn’t been doing any work!

*Whatever else Alicent has done, she has been a GOOD wife to Viserys. She has been kind, and dutiful, she has nursed him (when they had servants for that) and made sure he was comfortable in his illness. Viserys was lucky to have her (which I think he knew, not only was she young, beautiful and fertile she had a moral center)- I think he knew that, although Aemma was always his great “love” he lucked out with Alicent. May he have left her a lot of gold as dowager queen. 

[Brn2bwild]

26 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Why Rhaenyra has been in Dragonstone all these years rather than in King’s Landing actually prepping to rule and helping manage her father’s care*? I kinda think it’s because she’s a fucking coward and emotionally lazy. It’s HARD having Alicent hate her, it’s HARD having people whisper about her kids all the time (if she was concerned about the kids hearing that, have them fostered somewhere , or send them to Dragonstone and visit regularly), it’s HARD seeing her father sick and frail (I know we have seen it in our families, the caregiver steps up and takes care of the sick/disabled person, and rightfully is a little resentful when the person who hasn’t been there or done any of the day to day work steps in with a bunch of opinions). 

Rhaneyra couldve been setting up her own power base in King’s Landing but instead she was happy in Dragonstone with Daemon, his eldest (that was his eldest right?) and their sons. Which would be FINE if she just wanted to be Princess of Dragonstone, and let her little brother have the throne, but Rhaenrya hasn’t been doing any work!

I read it as she was afraid for her sons' lives, though one or two years away seems more appropriate than six.  And so close to her father's death, she should have stayed at least a couple more weeks to be there when he went.  However, Viserys bears blame as well.  He had a great opportunity after the Strongs died to make Rhaenyra his Hand as a show of faith in her, but also to give her a chance to gain experience ruling.  She could serve as Hand, then as Princess Regent, and people would be used to her authority by the time Viserys died.  Instead, for some reason he let Otto come back, the man he insinuated had caused his father's death.

As for the prophecy, I really hope it's leading to more than an attempt to burnish the shit that was Season 8.  It's not satisfying to hear about the Prince That Was Promised, only to know that the Prince didn't unite the realm - in fact, barely the North - nor was he or she ever on the Iron Throne, nor was he or she even the one who killed the Night King with the sacred knife.  One thing that has me excited about this show is that I suspect if, given the opportunity after multiple seasons, it could attempt to "fix" Season 8 by revealing that the Night King's army was not the last threat, and Dany (resurrected) and Jon would have to put it down before there was true peace.  Then they could do whatever they want - make Dany evil again, kill her or Jon again, whatever.  At least then the white walkers would be the major threat Martin always seemed to intend.   

As an aside: when Daemon took the dragon eggs in the beginning, didn't one of them look like Drogon's egg?

Edited October 11, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[MrWhyt]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Everyone, including Viserys, knows it to be true that they are not Velaryons. You do not have to have CSI: Westeros and DNA evidence to know that they look just like their biological father and not their "father," that their "father" was not a fan of dining on duck and thus was unlikely to have fathered a single child, that children of Velaryons and Targaryens tend have blond hair and these kids don't. 

that's not knowledge, that's suspicion. There is nothing biologically preventing a homosexual man from fathering children from good old heterosexual sexual intercourse

Edited October 11, 2022 by MrWhyt

[Cristofle]

38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Why Rhaenyra has been in Dragonstone all these years rather than in King’s Landing actually prepping to rule and helping manage her father’s care*? I kinda think it’s because she’s a fucking coward and emotionally lazy. It’s HARD having Alicent hate her, it’s HARD having people whisper about her kids all the time (if she was concerned about the kids hearing that, have them fostered somewhere , or send them to Dragonstone and visit regularly), it’s HARD seeing her father sick and frail (I know we have seen it in our families, the caregiver steps up and takes care of the sick/disabled person, and rightfully is a little resentful when the person who hasn’t been there or done any of the day to day work steps in with a bunch of opinions). 

The problem is, despite the framing of the show, this isn't a choice between Alicent and Rhaenyra in terms of the throne. It's a choice between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Alicent cannot control Aegon. That is abundantly, abundantly clear. It's kind of a cluster, because I think they write her as horrified by him to be more sympathetic, but if he was not a violent rapist and he WAS more easily controlled by her, we could see this as essentially a choice between Rhaenyra and Alicent as the de facto ruler. Rhaenyra's seeming lack of ambition here is a serious problem at this point because she's had YEARS to accept she needs to rule and instead has stayed content in Dragonstone. But the Aegon they've written, who Alicent cannot even get to stop raping every girl he gets his hands on including his sister-wife, should never be allowed near the throne. His current lack of ambition while he has no real power because his father has made it abundantly clear he doesn't want him near the throne is not indicative of what he will do when he gets absolute power. He doesn't even like Alicent. She probably has less sway over him as it appeared in this episode than Cersei had over Joffrey, which is...saying something. 

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

The problem is, despite the framing of the show, this isn't a choice between Alicent and Rhaenyra in terms of the throne. It's a choice between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Alicent cannot control Aegon. That is abundantly, abundantly clear. It's kind of a cluster, because I think they write her as horrified by him to be more sympathetic, but if he was not a violent rapist and he WAS more easily controlled by her, we could see this as essentially a choice between Rhaenyra and Alicent as the de facto ruler. Rhaenyra's seeming lack of ambition here is a serious problem at this point because she's had YEARS to accept she needs to rule and instead has stayed content in Dragonstone. But the Aegon they've written, who Alicent cannot even get to stop raping every girl he gets his hands on including his sister-wife, should never be allowed near the throne. His current lack of ambition while he has no real power because his father has made it abundantly clear he doesn't want him near the throne is not indicative of what he will do when he gets absolute power. He doesn't even like Alicent. She probably has less sway over him as it appeared in this episode than Cersei had over Joffrey, which is...saying something. 

I agree, ENTIRELY!

The funny thing about Cersei is that she was the regent. She held the power of the monarchy until Joffrey came of age (or until he marries, I forgot which), and while she had that power, she still couldn't control her son. If the throne passes to Aegon, he is of age and he's married. Alicent will have no power. Alicent, and likely Otto also, would be a nonfactor.

[Cristofle]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Alicent, and likely Otto also, would be a nonfactor.

It's kind of weird, because you'd think we'd see them as grooming him to be a ruler over the past few episodes? But all they do is bitchslap him around, lol. I'm hard-pressed to see how they will control him going forward. I guess he could be more intimidated by Otto than he currently appears, but he doesn't seem to have any love lost for any member of his family. It's like Joffrey, but with even less control. Sure, Aegon won't have much interest in a lot of day to day stuff, but neither did Joffrey. 

[Scarlett45]

32 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

The problem is, despite the framing of the show, this isn't a choice between Alicent and Rhaenyra in terms of the throne. It's a choice between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Alicent cannot control Aegon. That is abundantly, abundantly clear. It's kind of a cluster, because I think they write her as horrified by him to be more sympathetic, but if he was not a violent rapist and he WAS more easily controlled by her, we could see this as essentially a choice between Rhaenyra and Alicent as the de facto ruler. Rhaenyra's seeming lack of ambition here is a serious problem at this point because she's had YEARS to accept she needs to rule and instead has stayed content in Dragonstone. But the Aegon they've written, who Alicent cannot even get to stop raping every girl he gets his hands on including his sister-wife, should never be allowed near the throne. His current lack of ambition while he has no real power because his father has made it abundantly clear he doesn't want him near the throne is not indicative of what he will do when he gets absolute power. He doesn't even like Alicent. She probably has less sway over him as it appeared in this episode than Cersei had over Joffrey, which is...saying something. 

21 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I agree, ENTIRELY!

The funny thing about Cersei is that she was the regent. She held the power of the monarchy until Joffrey came of age (or until he marries, I forgot which), and while she had that power, she still couldn't control her son. If the throne passes to Aegon, he is of age and he's married. Alicent will have no power. Alicent, and likely Otto also, would be a nonfactor.

13 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

It's kind of weird, because you'd think we'd see them as grooming him to be a ruler over the past few episodes? But all they do is bitchslap him around, lol. I'm hard-pressed to see how they will control him going forward. I guess he could be more intimidated by Otto than he currently appears, but he doesn't seem to have any love lost for any member of his family. It's like Joffrey, but with even less control. Sure, Aegon won't have much interest in a lot of day to day stuff, but neither did Joffrey. 

I agree with you all and that really makes it worse. Alicent and Otto seem to have been doing things while the king was sick, you know actually ruling.
 

It would be one thing if Aegon wasn’t interested in ruling but wasn’t an awful uncontrollable person- his grandfather (for the rest of his life), mom, oldest sister Rhaenyra could keep things in line and be the real power. But he’s AWFUL (and his mom/grandfather know it) and he’s actually an adult. 
 

Shit is about to get real, and Rhaenyra really hasn’t been doing anything for YEARS to secure her power. I can put some blame on Viserys but he has been quite sick for some time, and he has stood up for Rhaenyra (he’s her father and loves her, I’m not surprised). 

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Shit is about to get real, and Rhaenyra really hasn’t been doing anything for YEARS to secure her power. I can put some blame on Viserys but he has been quite sick for some time, and he has stood up for Rhaenyra (he’s her father and loves her, I’m not surprised). 

And how dangerous Aegon is, is something Rhaenyra is also wholly unprepared for because she hasn't been paying much attention to him, and that will certainly be a catastrophic mistake on her part. I'm not sure the claiming of the throne, as seems inevitable by the end of the episode, will be totally on her, although she also might have been able to act more quickly if she were IN King's Landing and had more political allies (it was always going to be a struggle given that she's a woman, but she could have TRIED, damn). But could she have prevented whatever damage he will inevitably cause (they didn't show him to be a vicious rapist of little girls for no reason) if she'd even tried to build herself a better position? It's an interesting question.

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

And how dangerous Aegon is, is something Rhaenyra is also wholly unprepared for because she hasn't been paying much attention to him, and that will certainly be a catastrophic mistake on her part. I'm not sure the claiming of the throne, as seems inevitable by the end of the episode, will be totally on her, although she also might have been able to act more quickly if she were IN King's Landing and had more political allies (it was always going to be a struggle given that she's a woman, but she could have TRIED, damn). But could she have prevented whatever damage he will inevitably cause (they didn't show him to be a vicious rapist of little girls for no reason) if she'd even tried to build herself a better position? It's an interesting question.

I still vote lazy. A part of her is still a petulant teenager. 

“Alicent isn’t my friend any more, waaaahhh.”

”People are calling my kids bastards, although I did actually conceive kids with my side piece, how dare they speak the truth. WAAAHHH”

”I need to be prepared to fight the Greens, but all I did was marry Daemon who I actually wanted to marry, I didn’t do any political work to prepare for the fight. WAAAAHHH.”

I will give Rhaenrya credit for being truthful and giving Alicent credit for taking care of Viserys when he was sick. But she could’ve been splitting her time between Dragonstone and Kingslanding to at least stay in the loop. 

[Cristofle]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I still vote lazy. A part of her is still a petulant teenager. 

“Alicent isn’t my friend any more, waaaahhh.”

”People are calling my kids bastards, although I did actually conceive kids with my side piece, how dare they speak the truth. WAAAHHH”

”I need to be prepared to fight the Greens, but all I did was marry Daemon who I actually wanted to marry, I didn’t do any political work to prepare for the fight. WAAAAHHH.”

I will give Rhaenrya credit for being truthful and giving Alicent credit for taking care of Viserys when he was sick. But she could’ve been splitting her time between Dragonstone and Kingslanding to at least stay in the loop. 

If Msyaria was working for Daemon and Rhaenyra with Talya, then that's WORSE, lol, because they do have access to the fact that Alicent keeps having to brew up moon tea for all the girls Aegon is raping and they're still doing jack all to prepare to fight him. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt because Mysaria appeared to be working AGAINST Daemon in the fourth episode, but who else would be paying her for this information? Alicent sure isn't, lol, she's experiencing it first-hand. Otto isn't. 

[AntFTW]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I will give Rhaenrya credit for being truthful and giving Alicent credit for taking care of Viserys when he was sick. But she could’ve been splitting her time between Dragonstone and Kingslanding to at least stay in the loop.

Rhaenyra in her position as heir could have been the one ruling in her father's stead as he became incapacitated had she laid some groundwork and been in King's Landing, instead of Alicent.

She could have been her father's Hand or something... anything!

She wanted the position of Heir to the Throne without doing the work.

[KittyQ]

23 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

As someone who lives in a country with a monarchy, I find very difficult to believe that the heir to the throne has been spending her time so far from King's Landing. She should have had a permanent chair in the Council and now that she's a grown-up woman, she should be the one acting as a Regent, not the Queen consort

I wondered this as well. I also wondered why she would leave "to take the children home" (which isn't just around the block) when her father, the king, is at the point of death. Even as a daughter, not just the heir, you'd think she could wait a day or so until the funeral.  Of course, that would minimize some of the drama around who gets the crown.

Also, why would anyone believe Alicent's account of the king's drug influenced murmuring (that only she heard) should supersede his publicly stated wishes? It's like those who feel that a person's will isn't really what they want. 

[Nicmar]

22 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I thought that, too.  If you'd told me he was Daemon's son, I'd have believed it possible.

Yep.  These people need to find new names.  Aegon, Aemond, Daemon, Rhaenys, Rhaena, Rhaenyra, STOP IT.  At least Jace and Luc are different.

She definitely is a MVP here.  She's mostly quiet and yet completely magnificent.  What a loss the realm had when the council decided against her as queen.

At least its not Dickon 😁

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

I wondered this as well. I also wondered why she would leave "to take the children home" (which isn't just around the block) when her father, the king, is at the point of death. Even as a daughter, not just the heir, you'd think she could wait a day or so until the funeral.  Of course, that would minimize some of the drama around who gets the crown.

Also, why would anyone believe Alicent's account of the king's drug influenced murmuring (that only she heard) should supersede his publicly stated wishes? It's like those who feel that a person's will isn't really what they want. 

Viserys was very sick, but Rhaenrya didn’t know he was going to die that night. She said she planned to come back on her dragon to spend time with her father. But given that she’s pregnant, anything could happen to keep her at home. Which again, wouldn’t be such a big deal if she hadn’t spent 6yrs never even visiting much less making her a political presence known. 
 

Alicent is complex (like most of us) of course she wants her son to be king. She wishes he wasn’t such an asshole, but what were all her years of sacrifice for if not to advance her family. And he’s still her son and she loves him as Mothers do. Had Rhaenyra actually been ruling all this time instead of her and Otto, Alicent being a somewhat moral person would at least be conflicted, but she heard what she wanted to hear.  

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Also, why would anyone believe Alicent's account of the king's drug influenced murmuring (that only she heard) should supersede his publicly stated wishes? It's like those who feel that a person's will isn't really what they want. 

Because she wants something personal. Still lonely. She doesn’t have yo tell anyone. I mean, we will see.  But she could support rae and probably won’t. She is a hand in training. Useful to have. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Affogato

[Oscirus]

This also bugs me. Younger rhaenyra would not have put up with being called a whore. Older rhae is an entirely different story. 

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm guessing that even though Aemond's big and strong now, he doesn't like being reminded of a time when he wasn't, and when people made fun of him freely.

Yep.  Because adults hold grudges from their youth all the time.  It would be mentally healthier not to do so, but they do.

13 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Obviously he's right about Luke's paternity, but I think his claim of not acting out ambition, only concern for his bloodline is clearly not true.

I didn't say he only cared about bloodlines.  I fully believe he was acting out of ambition as well.  But the bloodline thing was part of it, and would have been a reason to oppose Rhaenys taking the Driftwood Throne if Corlys dies.  That's got nothing to do with Baela & Rhaena, just Rhaenys.

13 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Rhaenyra and Laena were second cousins. Their kids would be third cousins (triple third cousins I guess, since there are three sibling great-grandparents involved?) They're also first cousins once-removed through Daemon, the uncle who is now the boys' stepdad. Lotta, lotta incest going on in this family.

Thanks for the clarification.  It was making my head hurt trying to figure it out.  Damn these Targaryens marrying close relatives.

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Other people have already brought up that prophecies don't have to be true or interpereted correctly to be thematically important. Just think of how Melisandre kept reinterpereting who the messiah was and originally staked everything on it being fucking Stannis of all people. As an enjoyer of tragedy and dramatic irony, I'm onboard with it now tbh.

That's exactly who I was thinking of when I made that comment.  Every time she hit a roadblock with her current Prince Who Was Promised, she found another one.

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Unlike the other characters he has some respect and concern for the small folks (one thing Rhaenyra and Aegon would probably agree on is a complete disregard for commoners),

Does he?  I've seen no real examples of that.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

I wondered this as well. I also wondered why she would leave "to take the children home" (which isn't just around the block) when her father, the king, is at the point of death.

Maybe because it pleases the modern audience? Rhaenyra could have kept the youngest children with her and let servants (and Daemon) take the heir and spare (whose safety is most important) home.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Instead, for some reason he let Otto come back, the man he insinuated had caused his father's death.

Wait what? When did this happen?

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

This also bugs me. Younger rhaenyra would not have put up with being called a whore. Older rhae is an entirely different story. 

Older Rhaenyra now has as a Daemon by her side. I think she knew exactly what Daemon was going to do.

Edited October 11, 2022 by LanceM

[proserpina65]

5 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Upon rewatch of GOT after knowing the ending, the signs were all there. They just did a horrible job of relating that story. Too rushed.

I don't think they did a horrible job, but a rushed one, yeah, that I'll agree to.  I saw it coming the first time around, but then I was less charmed by Dany to begin with.  So I can see why fans could've missed the signs.  I actually liked the last two season and even how it all ended but I do think they should've gone with 10 episodes for those seasons just to allow some breathing room.  (That's not to say I didn't find flaws with some of those last episodes, though.)

3 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Bravo Matt Smith improvising that crown replacing. It could have ended up a blooper, but he crafted it instantly into a very touching scene. MS is aces in my book.

Was that improvised?  Wow, that was indeed excellent work on his part, then.

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

Also, why would anyone believe Alicent's account of the king's drug influenced murmuring (that only she heard) should supersede his publicly stated wishes? It's like those who feel that a person's will isn't really what they want. 

Those who are inclined to support her side will choose to believe it and those inclined to support Rhaenyra's side will choose not to.

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Instead, for some reason he let Otto come back, the man he insinuated had caused his father's death.

I don't remember that happening at all.

[Brn2bwild]

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

Wait what? When did this happen?

He made a statement to the effect of: "Wasn't it funny how my father was perfectly fine as heir and Hand to the King, and then suddenly he was dead, and you, an unimportant member of my grandfather's court, rose to be Hand?"  I'd have to rewatch to recall the exact words.

Regardless, it was a pretty intense and emphatic dismissal by Viserys and I don't see him, even in a weakened state, welcoming Otto back.

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

This also bugs me. Younger rhaenyra would not have put up with being called a whore. Older rhae is an entirely different story. 

To be fair, she only had a few seconds to react while her younger son was visibly upset and scared at being screamed at by this guy before Daemon decided to relieve him of the top three quarters of his head. I think adult Rhaenyra is definitely toned down from fiery teenage Rhaenyra, but she didn't even really get a chance to react here. 

I agree that after that firing, I don't see Alicent being able to talk Viserys back into Otto, especially since he seemed to lose a good amount of faith in Alicent at the same time he lost faith in Otto. That wasn't handled well. 

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hate Alicent as much as the next person, but I stand by my opinion that her compassion for Dyana was about as much sympathy as anyone in Westeros will ever have towards rape between a royal and a servant girl. She believed the poor girl. Yes she was manipulative, but even today many rape cases are settled with money + an abortion. Giving Dyana a lump of gold and moon tea is more than I see Cersei or even Sansa (a victim of rape herself) doing. She also confronted Aegon later about Dyana. 

As I said, I hate Alicent, but she reacted decently to the whole Dyana situation. And Dyana probably thought she got a good deal, all things considered. The gold won't take away the trauma of course but it will mean she gets to start a new life elsewhere with that money, AND she won't have to worry about Aegon Jr.'s being born.

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I'm not an Alicent fan, but I think she was sincerely upset in that scene. She knew Aegon had done it. She knew the girl was innocent. It obviously wasn't the first time - they have a system down. It didn't make the part of the scene where she terrified the girl into further silence easier to watch, but I don't think the emotion was insincere on her part. 

I give Alicent credit--she didn't have to tell the girl she believed her, and she might have been one of those mothers who would just refuse to believe anything bad about her son. In some ways she's very realistic.  She didn't get anything herself out of being nice to the girl or giving her money. It's not like she would have been more trouble if she'd been banished. 

Trouble is, of course, that this is just like what she's doing with Aegon in general. She knows he's terrible and will be a terrible ruler, but she's not going to put a stop to any of it, so if she has her way the country will have a terrible king.

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I'm not an Alicent fan, but I think she was sincerely upset in that scene. She knew Aegon had done it. She knew the girl was innocent. It obviously wasn't the first time - they have a system down. It didn't make the part of the scene where she terrified the girl into further silence easier to watch, but I don't think the emotion was insincere on her part. 

I agree. I just don't know right words to describe it. As many of us on this thread stated, Alicent knows who her son is and how terrible of a person he is. Her demeanor is not "I'm sorry that my son did this terrible thing to you" but rather "I'm sorry it had to be you (Dyana) this time."

[snickers]

5 hours ago, nikma said:

They are not blacklisted lol

They made the most popular show in history. They will never be blacklisted. They are doing massive show for Netflix called The Three Body Problem, which is currently in post production.

And they've had more other projects for Netflix like The Chair.

Dare I say/use the term “alternate facts” or more so “alternate perceptions “ 

first off - everything with Netflix is “massive” is it not? That’s why they are in debt and are cutting/canceling some shows they probably should have given some more time with 

second - just because Netflix threw money at it doesn’t mean it will be “good” sex/life anyone?

third-technically the term is used as a noun for “disfavor” so I still by my words 😎

[Lady Whistleup]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I give Alicent credit--she didn't have to tell the girl she believed her, and she might have been one of those mothers who would just refuse to believe anything bad about her son. In some ways she's very realistic.  She didn't get anything herself out of being nice to the girl or giving her money. It's not like she would have been more trouble if she'd been banished. 

Trouble is, of course, that this is just like what she's doing with Aegon in general. She knows he's terrible and will be a terrible ruler, but she's not going to put a stop to any of it, so if she has her way the country will have a terrible king.

Many mothers coddle and enable their sons. I'm a teacher and have encountered many mothers who refuse to believe their darling son is anyrhing less than perfect. Alicent seems to know her child well and that's to her credit.

I'm more disturbed by her indifference to Helaena's suffering. As queen regent she could arrange for a nice safe home for Helaena to go to.

[Cristofle]

Just now, AntFTW said:

I agree. I just don't know right words to describe it. As many of us on this thread stated, Alicent knows who her son is and how terrible of a person he is. Her demeanor is not "I'm sorry that my son did this terrible thing to you" but rather "I'm sorry it had to be you (Dyana) this time."

It's a tough scene. I'm not exactly Team Alicent, even as I'm aware that her distress is genuine (Olivia did an absolutely wonderful job in that scene, btw). Because she is kinder than a lot of other people might be in her shoes. But she's enabling her son. But I'm not opposed to her trying to make sure these poor girls don't get pregnant and can maybe get away from them, the best they can do in this world. But she's still been heading straight for trying to put her son on the throne for all this time, knowing he is a monster and seemingly unable to do a thing to turn that ship around. But he's the only other choice for heir - she can't just declare Helaena has a bigger claim. Seriously, I talk myself in circles. LOL. Mostly, I think that scene is a terrifying warning sign for what is about to come. They may well ALL regret the day Aegon realizes what he can do with ultimate power. 

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

 They may well ALL regret the day Aegon realizes what he can do with ultimate power. 

If Aemond is still alive, he would not hesitate to be a kingslayer. After all, he will have a 20 year pig grudge by then...

Edited October 11, 2022 by paigow

[dramachick]

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

He's already got his dimensions down.  Unlike the other characters he has some respect and concern for the small folks (one thing Rhaenyra and Aegon would probably agree on is a complete disregard for commoners), clearly loved his brother despite everything, and so far appears to be a good husband to Rhaenyra.  Of course, anyone who hates the guy would consider all of this an act he's putting on - for example, he didn't help Viserys up the stairs out of affection, he did it solely because he needed him to rule against Vaemond.

Plus maybe it's a family trait to ignore your children.  I don't get the impression that Viserys had any sort of affection for Aegon, Aemond, and Helaena.  No long walk across the throne room for those kids.

I haven't seen Daemon show any concern for the common folk. He viciously attacked a messenger for bringing him bad news and killed an innocent servant so that he and Rhaenyra could marry.

He encourages Rhaenyra's worst impulses -- to what end? Didn't he want to be heir to the Iron Throne? Will he be content to be Prince Consort or does he have a long game? Will Rhaenyra grow old with him -- or not? Does he view his daughters as pawns to be used in furtherance of his goals as Otto has used Alicent? Does he love his daughters? Or is he completely indifferent to them? 

In my opinion, Otto is a multifaceted character. Daemon is not.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

But he's the only other choice for heir - she can't just declare Helaena has a bigger claim.

Mayhap, given Aegon's predilection for windows, he might accidentally get defenestrated?  Not sure Aemond would be a better king, but he might not be as bad.  Assuming of course, one insisted on a son for the throne.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, snickers said:

Dare I say/use the term “alternate facts” or more so “alternate perceptions “ 

first off - everything with Netflix is “massive” is it not? That’s why they are in debt and are cutting/canceling some shows they probably should have given some more time with 

second - just because Netflix threw money at it doesn’t mean it will be “good” sex/life anyone?

third-technically the term is used as a noun for “disfavor” so I still by my words 😎

Well naturally it's on them to make popular and successful show again, but Netflix gave them a lot of money to do it.

Just like HBO gave a lot of money for this show but how popular it's going to be in the long run is on Condal.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

that's not knowledge, that's suspicion. There is nothing biologically preventing a homosexual man from fathering children from good old heterosexual sexual intercourse

Obviously any one point I laid out could be contradicted or explained. It is when you have all those points and more besides pointing to "they are bastards" that you move from "this is mere suspicion" to "this is generally/widely accepted as fact."

Or to quote GOT: When it comes to the true parentage of Rhae's oldest three children, "It is known."

[Ceindreadh]

It seems to me that Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was not taking a blonde lover.

If her eldest 3 had had blonde hair, like both 'parents', it would have been a lot harder to refute their legitimacy. 

[Lady Whistleup]

3 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

It seems to me that Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was not taking a blonde lover.

If her eldest 3 had had blonde hair, like both 'parents', it would have been a lot harder to refute their legitimacy. 

But don't the Targaryens not just have blond hair, but a very specific kind of extremely fine, white-blond hair?