S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen

[Scarlett45]

34 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

As for Ser Criston, I don't understand how he got where he is after killing someone. Especially someone of noble blood.

I think because they got into a fight (both had weapons) while it was a dishonor it wasn't a "murder". In the mess of the feast no one could see who started it, and Ser Cole may have won 'fair and square'. Ser Cole could also say that Joffrey (Laenor's boyfriend) threatened the princess and thats why they fought. I could see how he would get out of it, especially with Alicent's backing.

[sugarbaker design]

There was a scene, very brief, that focused on one of the tongueless hit squad, the camera lingered and stayed on a pin or a broach on  his uniform for just a second.  It looked like a bumblebee.  Does anyone remember seeing this?  Was it a bumblee?  What is it's significance, if any?

Edited September 26, 2022 by sugarbaker design

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

Irl in the middle ages even the murder wasn't as serious a crime as it is now but could be settled by giving money to the offer's family. And the killing wasn't considered a murder if it was done a fair fight (f.ex. both had a sword in hand) and it wasn't done in secret.

On the other hand, the killing could be deemed more serious than usual when it was done in the feast and in the king's presence. 

Can somebody please explain the laws and customs of the this fantasy world. 

Couple of things at play here. At the most basic level: guest rites. When you're invited to a meal at someone's house, you are granted guest rites, which allows for things like beefs to be squashed safely and civilly. It's an extremely serious transgression to violate it as either the host or the guest (Walder Frey is the most egregious example in the show). That's the very, very basic underlying sin. THen you add things like the Kingsgaurd issue: they're supposed to be the best knights in the land and their charge is the highest there can be. Bodily protection of the royals. Beating someone to death at a royal party would have had to come with a serious threat to the royal person, which isn't the case here, and can't plausibly be the case either, no one would believe "The Knight of Kisses" would really have plotted to murder the king. Or the fact that he's supposed to gaurd the king, and instead, punched the future king in the face in a violent outburst. Again he should have been arrested and disposed before he left that room, not been able to be found having a think out in the godswood. I just hate plot armor this obvious. 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wow, there is nobody likable in this show.  No one to root for. 

Maybe that's good because then one doesn't feel anything when they are killed.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think because they got into a fight (both had weapons) while it was a dishonor it wasn't a "murder".

What weapon?

1 minute ago, sugarbaker design said:

There was a scene, very brief, that focused on one of the tongueless hit squad, the camera lingered and stayed on a pin or a broach for just a second.  It looked like a bumblebee.  Does anyone remember seeing this?  Was it a bumblee?  What is it's significance, if any?

Same symbol on the knob of the cane of Lyras when he went to the black cells. 

[jeansheridan]

48 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

We weren't shown what kind of relationship he has with his father and brother, but one could guess that he was directly discriminated or at best just ignored, so he has decided to act in secret.

He was seated with his brother at the wedding and they were making snide remarks together. Nothing about Harwin said "bully" to me. But maybe Larys is just evil to be evil. The flip side of Tyrion who was mocked but became a reasonably competent man trying to do right by the realm.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, sugarbaker design said:

There was a scene, very brief, that focused on one of the tongueless hit squad, the camera lingered and stayed on a pin or a broach on  his uniform for just a second.  It looked like a bumblebee.  Does anyone remember seeing this?  Was it a bumblee?  What is it's significance, if any?

Looked like a beetle. I assume it has something to do with Larys or House Strong. Meaning they work for him (and he's now the heir unless there is a brother over him).

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

What weapon?

Didnt Joffrey have his knife on him? He pulled it out to stab Ser Cole when he was down on the grown. Ser Cole was on duty so he had his sword.

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He was seated with his brother at the wedding and they were making snide remarks together. Nothing about Harwin said "bully" to me. But maybe Larys is just evil to be evil. The flip side of Tyrion who was mocked but became a reasonably competent man trying to do right by the realm.

I think Larys has been discriminated against because of his disability, but he's also an evil asshole. (both things can be true) I don't think his father and brother ever did anything like PLOT TO MURDER HIM, and were probably kind to him, but he's an asshole with a chip on his shoulder, and because of his disability, he is often "under estimated". Alicent had no idea he was going to arrange for the murder of his own fucking family. 

Larys protects Larys ONLY.

[Roseanna]

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

What weapon?

I told an example about the laws in the real Middle Ages according which the fight had to "equal" in theory although it wasn't in fact.

Then I asked what kind of laws there are in this fantasy world, in order to understand it better.  

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Didnt Joffrey have his knife on him? He pulled it out to stab Ser Cole when he was down on the grown. Ser Cole was on duty so he had his sword.

AH yes, that's right...except Cole was well into the process of beating the shit out of him with his armored hands by the time Joff pulled it. Eh, either way, seems like enough Velarions would have witnessed it and called bullshit on the story that Joffrey pulled a knife, unprovoked, on a kingsgaurd, at the royal wedding feast, during dancing, and threatened something so ominous that Cole was left with no choice but to punch his literal head in. I also want to know where the other Kingsgarud were during that beating, like why aren't they pulling him off. I know I'm obsessed with this point, I'm sorry! 

[ferjy]

Oh God, now we have a slew of grandchildren. I’m going to be constantly referring to Lady S’s Family Tree guide from now on. Although at this rate, there may be none left by next week. What did we have, three deaths just in this episode?

I’m surprised Viserys is still alive ten years on. Looks like Hell, but still kicking. 

I know people change, but what a turnabout with Alicent! Making poor Rhaenyra trek over to her immediately after giving birth. She’s hardened beyond 10 years. And storming about, yelling at everyone. I do like Olivia Cooke and she’s good in the role, but Alicent is a whole different person. 

11 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

It didn't help that Daemon was also so subdued.

From Thor to Mr. Rogers. This time jump is brutal. I was looking forward to the older cast, but I didn’t think the characters’ lives would be half over. 

11 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

This Rhaenyra seems so weak and cowed.

Maybe she and Alicent did one of those switches, like in the Hallmark movies. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by ferjy

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I also want to know where the other Kingsgarud were during that beating, like why aren't they pulling him off. I know I'm obsessed with this point, I'm sorry! 

Criston had one job.. protect the Princess... even Viserys himself was secondary... all his KG Bros knew that... so they did not interfere... but would have if Criston was losing the fight...

[Constantinople]

I enjoyed the episode and I liked the new actors, but this is the first time I felt the story was rushed. I don't think the audience should have to explain to themselves why Criston didn't face any punishment or why Larys is so willing to off his family. A little background should be provided. I think that's also true of how Harwin & Rhaenyra hooked up and about Laena and Daemon getting married.

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

This Rhaenyra seems so weak and cowed.

To be fair to this Rhaenrya- she was immediately post partum the entire episode. This one took place over the span of what, a week or two? She's in pain and exhausted and PEEVED at how Alicent has been treating her, upset at the rumors (which are 100% true so she is a hypocrite), and again, she is immediately post partum. Heading to small counsel meetings with leaking breasts cannot be fun (although yes the baby is being cared for by others, she still needs to heal). 

I also think she had actual feelings for Ser Harwin Strong and he's gone (left and dead), but another part of me thinks of she ACTUALLY loved him and had feelings for him, she wouldn't have continued to put him in DANGER (he could've been beheaded for sleeping with her) by continuing to have his children. Rhaenrya is SO impulsive. She has not grown up, its "I want, I want, I want"- well if you want to be Queen, you need allies and supporters, you need to do what is good for the realm sometimes, and when you do things "for yourself" keep that private and not give your enemies fuel.

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I think that's also true of how Harwin & Rhaenyra hooked up and about Laena and Daemon getting married.

We saw the seeds of that last episode. Harwin had been making eyes at Rhaenrya and saved her in the feast. Laenrya was flirting with Daemon pretty heavily and they were dancing together before the fight broke out, we got that she was into him and he was impressed with her.

[paigow]

Team Dragonless:  Aemond & his cousin... they both have Daddy issues and other assorted chips on their shoulders... if they team up...

[Tachi Rocinante]

Solid episode.  My thoughts:

• The title of this episode should have been "Loose Ends"
• There were some impressive one-take tracking shots at the beginning
• Conversely, it's 2022.  Why can't production make a decent fake belly? I've seen high-school theater productions with better prosthetics
• Joffrey?  Really?
• Criston should have a broken jaw and missing teeth
• As mentioned upthread, why couldn't Laenor's lover fluff him enough to be a two-pump chump?

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I believe most mothers, knowing that they were doomed to die and giving a choice to them, would want to save their child, despite how much pain it cost them.

I can only speak for myself and am not presuming what "most women" would want but no man would have me butchered like a pig to get what they want if I can help it.  Like Viserys did to the woman he supposedly loved.

That was Leana's body and she ought to have a choice and she chose to go by dragon fire. It is alien to me but these dragon riders are obviously not like regular people at all. 

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I enjoyed the episode and I liked the new actors, but this is the first time I felt the story was rushed. I don't think the audience should have to explain to themselves why Criston didn't face any punishment or why Larys is so willing to off his family. A little background should be provided. I think that's also true of how Harwin & Rhaenyra hooked up and about Laena and Daemon getting married.

Yes.  I wonder whether they are rushing through things because they didn't know whether they would get a second season when they filmed the first?

[jeansheridan]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also think she had actual feelings for Ser Harwin Strong and he's gone (left and dead), but another part of me thinks of she ACTUALLY loved him and had feelings for him, she wouldn't have continued to put him in DANGER (he could've been beheaded for sleeping with her) by continuing to have his children.

I think this is a very fair point. We really needed less of a jump. I didn't need the full romance but to understand her thinking more would have helped. 

And Rhynaera has grown up. Like many working mothers she hauled her ass to work even with leaking breasts (and eff you Alicent for drawing attention to it). She looked tired but made I think several thoughtful contributions to the discussion meaning she does her homework. She's paying attention. She comes up with a possible solution to their conflict (and she knows how weird her half sister is). She’s still somewhat kind to her husband. I actually like this Rhynaera so much more than her teenage self. So yes I would like to understand how she feels more. Why risk Harwin? How did she feel.when he died? Was having his children an act of desperation? She needed kids to solidify her hold on the throne. Really needed them and if Laenor wasn't producing for whatever reason, maybe sticking to the same lover felt safer? He seemed like a genuinely okay man. She learned! From clingy Cole to her uncle, Harwin is handsome, sane, and reasonable! 

[The Kings Foot]

The opening credits changed.  We now have more bloodlines for the grandkids.

11 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

A non-scheming, loyal hand to the king gets murdered, I've heard this tune before. By his own kin, though.

Are we supposed be on Alicent's side? Because I'm kind of...not.

Given that they have her "quoting"  Cersei I doubt it.    Noone in Kings landing is on my side!

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

So how is it that Harwin punches a member of the kings guard and gets kicked out of the watch, but Criston punches the future king consort and kills a guard of a noble house and now gets to guard the Queen? He hates Rheanyra now because he broke his honor for her and lost nothing. What a wuss he turned our to be.

Yeah we needed something explaining this.  Even if its just him lying his ass off and being backed by Alicent. 

11 hours ago, dramachick said:

I don't enjoy watching this show.

I don't care about any of the characters. 

I will try and finish the season.

Having said that . . .

Of course, Laena, the most interesting, smartest, and strongest woman so far, chose a quick death by dragon. That was a heartbreaking scene, especially showing how her poor dragon didn't want to do it.  Rest in peace, Laena. You were a bad bitch.

The way Rhaenyra is written doesn't make sense to me. So far, she appears to be driven solely by her personal wants and desires, everyone else be damned. Are we supposed to believe that she would be a good queen? I wonder if they killed off Harwin Strong to force her to focus on becoming queen rather than popping out babies for her lover. 

Aegon appears to be his father's son.

Ser Criston is now Alicent's bitch instead of Rhaenyra's whore.

Alicent and Larys are bona fied villains. Who are the heroes?

1. Agreed Laena was by far the best woman in this show so  far.

2.  Ive noted that they recycling  lines from Cersei in both Alicent's and Rhaenyra's mouths.   This is bad. 

11 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

It thought Aiicent would have taken a lover by now.  In fact I thought it would with Criston.  Maybe he didn't want to be her whore either. 

Nah.  That would make Cristen murder her.  With his psychology the best play is the dutiful mother figure. 

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

100% agree. They could have jumped 5 years. But didn't Leana already have her dragon when she married Daemon? Because she claimed her dragon at 15. 

Just one extra ep and it would have made all those deaths matter.

Agreed we need a 5 year jump first. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[nodorothyparker]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Larys has been discriminated against because of his disability, but he's also an evil asshole. (both things can be true) I don't think his father and brother ever did anything like PLOT TO MURDER HIM, and were probably kind to him, but he's an asshole with a chip on his shoulder, and because of his disability, he is often "under estimated". Alicent had no idea he was going to arrange for the murder of his own fucking family. 

Larys protects Larys ONLY.

He's kind of an amalgamation at this point of Varys and Littlefinger if Varys dropped any pretense of doing the things he did "for the realm."  We call him Sir Shit Stirrer in our house, or at least we did before he murdered his own damn family because he took what Alicent said to its most extreme conclusion. Again, we're not given enough connective tissue to really know how his family treated him beyond seeing him and Harwin standing together whispering about the Hightower at Westeros's most recent wedding catastrophe. 

I don't think Alicent knew what he was going to do either but she can't pretend that she doesn't know full well what he's capable of from here on out.

[magdalene]

Daemon seemed almost depressed the entire episode. The spark went out of him?

He is not getting what he wants but I appreciate that he didn't lash out at his family at any point we got to observe.  And not letting himself be pressured  by the doctor that's a biggie for me.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

He's kind of an amalgamation at this point of Varys and Littlefinger if Varys dropped any pretense of doing the things he did "for the realm."  We call him Sir Shit Stirrer in our house, or at least we did before he murdered his own damn family because he took what Alicent said to its most extreme conclusion. Again, we're not given enough connective tissue to really know how his family treated him beyond seeing him and Harwin standing together whispering about the Hightower at Westeros's most recent wedding catastrophe. 

I don't think Alicent knew what he was going to do either but she can't pretend that she doesn't know full well what he's capable of from here on out.

Yup. I think though if his family was evil to him we would've been shown that, it would've made him more "justified"- there is a reason why he's written as being on the sidelines rather than being actively mistreated. 

Oh yeah, Alicent has now gotten in bed with a ruthless ass MOFO, and its probably the smartest thing to have him murdered once her Dad gets back. He cannot be trusted and he would stab her in the back too. But something tells me she won't do that.

[LanceM]

As far as the time jumps are concerned I am guessing that once Viserys dies and the fight for the throne begins the time jumps will more or less cease. This I am sure is only a season 1 thing.

[absnow54]

2 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Daemon seemed almost depressed the entire episode. The spark went out of him?

He is not getting what he wants but I appreciate that he didn't lash out at his family at any point we got to observe.  And not letting himself be pressured  by the doctor that's a biggie for me.

I was kind of confused by how Matt Smith played the scene. Daemon doesn't face the same pressures of producing a male heir as Viserys, since he doesn't have much to his name to pass down. In the scene, it seemed like he couldn't really care less if either mother or baby died. It seemed like he just wanted it to be over with, so he could be done with the "family man" period of his life. 

Not that I really blame him. I find my enjoyment of this show is strongly linked to how unhinged Daemon is. I sympathize with Leana and the suffering she had to endure, and his daughters who are now only left with a disinterested parent, and poor Vhagar who had to fry her bestie, but from an entertainment standpoint, Daemon being an a-hole is infinitely more interesting to watch. 

[nikma]

This was the worst episode so far. It's rushed and at times nonsensical.

Characters completely change personally between episodes and I often don't understand why they are doing what they are doing 

[Lassus]

I don't want to pile on but by now I am kind of hate-watching.  I'm considering bowing out before I have to watch any dragons die.

30 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

In the scene, it seemed like he couldn't really care less if either mother or baby died.

It's somewhat hard to make sense of overall, but I did initially think it was Daemon making the choice his brother DIDN'T make, having his wife live, over the baby.  Stillborn babies are a tragedy but not unheard of and I thought that was the route this was going to take; and then to be seen as part of Daemon's redemption in relation to his brother, who killed his wife for the sake of a child.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Lassus

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Lassus said:

It's somewhat hard to make sense of overall, but I actually did initially think it was going to be Daemon making the choice his brother DIDN'T make, having his wife live, over the baby.  Stillborn babies are a tragedy but not unheard of and I thought that was the route this was going to take, and to be seen actually as part of Daemon's redemption in relation to his brother who killed his wife for the sake of a child.

I think Daemon was caught in his feelings given he was now going through the same thing his brother went through, that he was careless and heartless enough to mock. I think he was being reflective at what an asshole he was in that situation in episode 1.

For the record, this situation is not a "choose the woman or the child" if the baby cannot be born by vaginal delivery, the mother WILL die in a few hours (regardless). The choice of a c-section causes the mother to die by blood loss (more quickly) but MAY save the child. Of course I believe Laenryra had a right to choose her own death, and she preferred to go by dragon fire than by blood loss. If she had told Daemon "save the baby" I think he would've honored her wishes. I think that scene showed that Daemon was reflecting on how he treated his own brother, and it also showed that Daemon knew his wife, and didnt interfere with her choosing her own death. 

Spoiler

Next episode we see them take her body home, I wonder how things with go when his girls meet their extended family.

[paigow]

If there was a Westeros BAU,  this would be the Stressor Exposition Flashback Montage. Almost everybody got a red flag this episode...

[NeenerNeener]

I finally figured out where I'd seen the actor who plays Harwin before (binged Packed to the Rafters a year ago) and then they had to go and kill him off. Damn.

[Lassus]

35 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

For the record, this situation is not a "choose the woman or the child" if the baby cannot be born by vaginal delivery, the mother WILL die in a few hours (regardless).

I was under the impression that a procedure - even in this fake medieval period - of highly unpleasant yet necessary mechanical extraction would have a much greater (if certainly not near 100%) chance of saving the mother without going full caesarian.  Which, of course, I might have made up in my brain.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Lassus

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I was under the impression that a procedure - even in this fake medieval period - of unpleasant yet necessary mechanical extraction would have a much greater (if certainly not near 100%) chance of saving the mother without going full caesarian.  Which, of course, I might have made up in my brain.

I could see that if the baby was stuck in the vaginal canal, but if she didn't dilate enough to get the baby's head out, that would be quite difficult, without destroying her cervix, which also would result in blood loss/likely death for her. (I do not believe in this universe they have the drugs or medical tools to safely dilate the cervix enough to get a full term sized fetus out without harming the mother)

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Wow. Lots to chew on here. The time jump I think worked well, although I wish Alicent's character hadn't become so hardened and unlikable. When Emily Carey played her there was still hope for Alicent, but now ... not so much. Hope she enjoys all those green dresses. It really reminds me of how Westworld never recovered after they made Dolores evil. Alicent is a villain now, but it doesn't feel organic.

I loved Rhaenyra powering through after birth to go to Alicent for the baby inspection. Alicent's power play fell through real quick.

Overall, I like Emma D’Arcy better as Rhaenyra and Olivia Cooke less as Alicent.

I couldn't believe Daemon turned into a decent family man.

I'm not understanding the genetics here. Alicent has dark hair, but all her kids have the Targaryen white blond hair? And Rhae has white blond hair, but all her kids have dark hair? 

I'm also surprised Rhae and her husband can't get it together for one actual baby. Back in the day, lavender marriages produced heirs, you know.

Alicent's son Aegon seems really off. 

I'm looking forward to Alicent dealing with the psycho Larys. She totally bit off more than she could chew.

I thought Alicent's 'descent' seemed organic. She has clearly been stewing for a while and she has Criston to back her up.

What bothered me was how quickly, and awkwardly Daemon's wife ended (because she lost a child? Postpartum depression?) and maybe we could have done with exploring his relationship with her a little more. Also, we hardly knew the father of Rhaeneyra's children, and that had been happening for a while, three of them. That seemed sudden, too.

I guess Alicent's children reinforce that the platinum hair gene is dominant, except then Rhaeneyra's kids should have had platinum hair. Perhaps it is connected to the y chromosome, but as far as humans on our planet go, that doesn't happen (not an expert, but as far as I remember, the sex chromosomes carry sexual characteristics, not phenotype characteristics like skin, hair and eye color).

t doesn't make sense that they wouldn't as previously agreed, have children. Joffrey's death was traumatic, but I'd think he would know his duty and the importance of appearances.

After thinking about it, I wonder if Daemon actually wanted to kill his wife, so  much as he somehow wanted to make a connection (and the horse throwing and paralyzing her was an accident). It is an awkward scene. He seemed reluctant to kill her then, too, although it was clear that she thought he'd come to kill her and would tell on him if she survived. He kills her out of kindness, when she asks. A lonely person with poor people skills, perhaps? And also a sociopath, but that runs in the family.

Yes, 'Aegon, second of his name' is way, way off. Makes Daemon look good as an heir, by comparison.

[NeenerNeener]

One thing I've wondered about....are Targaryen children fireproof in the womb? Did anyone bother to check to see if the baby survived being roasted?

Edited September 26, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[Affogato]

7 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I was under the impression that a procedure - even in this fake medieval period - of highly unpleasant yet necessary mechanical extraction would have a much greater (if certainly not near 100%) chance of saving the mother without going full caesarian.  Which, of course, I might have made up in my brain.

I would think there might be circumstances where you could crush the baby's skull or otherwise damage it in order to get it out. The baby would probably not survive, but the mother might?

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Jokes aside, I'm really surprised by all the parallels between Criston on the show and Jaime in the books. I imagine their stories will take different paths, but they really do seem to be cut from the same cloth so to speak.

Really? Jaime had his issues, but he never seemed small minded and bitter and easily lead.

[jeansheridan]

17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

12 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Wow. Lots to chew on here. The time jump I think worked well, although I wish Alicent's character hadn't become so hardened and unlikable. When Emily Carey played her there was still hope for Alicent, but now ... not so much. Hope she enjoys all those green dresses. It really reminds me of how Westworld never recovered after they made Dolores evil. Alicent is a villain now, but it doesn't feel organic.

I loved Rhaenyra powering through after birth to go to Alicent for the baby inspection. Alicent's power play fell through real quick.

Overall, I like Emma D’Arcy better as Rhaenyra and Olivia Cooke less as Alicent.

I couldn't believe Daemon turned into a decent family man.

I'm not understanding the genetics here. Alicent has dark hair, but all her kids have the Targaryen white blond hair? And Rhae has white blond hair, but all her kids have dark hair? 

I'm also surprised Rhae and her husband can't get it together for one actual baby. Back in the day, lavender marriages produced heirs, you know.

Alicent's son Aegon seems really off. 

I'm looking forward to Alicent dealing with the psycho Larys. She totally bit off more than she could chew.

Expand  

I thought Alicent's 'descent' seemed organic. She has clearly been stewing for a while and she has Criston to back her up.

I agree. I knew Cooke would be much more intense and sharp so I wish she had the role the whole time. She's only 28! She played a teen 5 years ago. 

But thus far Alicent and Viserys are the most stable main characters. Both of them make sense to me. And Rhyneara almost does. I have to do too much guessing but overall I guess I find her the most compelling still? I guess I am curious to see if she can win and be a decent Queen. I kind of want her to be. But once dragons start to die I am out. They're the most worthy beings in this world. Why do they even bother with humans?

[jeansheridan]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Really? Jaime had his issues, but he never seemed small minded and bitter and easily lead.

I agree with you on this point too! If anything Harwell is closer to Jaime. Sad ending but he was secretly respected by his lover AND her husband. 

Cole is more like that Lannister cousin who found religion and was so satisfyingly blown to bits.And that was a slow burn! That actor maybe had 20 min of screen time in 6 seasons but when he died, it felt good. And when Margery died it sucked a lot even though she was hardly "good".

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

Yes.  I wonder whether they are rushing through things because they didn't know whether they would get a second season when they filmed the first?

Yes, I think it's absolutely that. Especially after the backlash to GoT's ending, they may have thought the only way to hook an audience was to get the action asap.

Really, Alicent, you're surprised Rhaenyra's sons' eggs hatched? Are you forgetting that you yourself are not Targ either? Wait, I know she knows that when she has both her sons dressed in Hightower green. Despite the hair color those boys are no more Valyrian than Rhaenyra's and I doubt dragons care about bastardy more than bloodline. (Or else Daemon's egg theft would be no threat since it wouldn't hatch for a child of Mysaria if their marriage wasn't legal, right? See also: dark-haired half-Targ dragonrider Jon Snow.)

Updated for 1.06.

[Helena Dax]

The idea that Rhaenyra would do something like that in her position is ludicrous. Even if her right to the throne was accepted by everyone, it's such a risk! And she and Leanor can't have been trying seriously, judging by the age of the oldest son.

I agree that the pacing of the show is hurting the story. The relationships between the characters should be more developed.

In a world full of murderers, exhibitionists and devious bitches, I despise Cole the most.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Helena Dax

[nikma]

They are not rushing. They started the story too early. It would've been much better to start here because first 5 episodes feel pointless and I don't see what we really got there that we wouldn't in a short exposition in the premiere.

[jeansheridan]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

They are not rushing. They started the story too early. It would've been much better to start here because first 5 episodes feel pointless and I don't see what we really got there that we wouldn't in a short exposition in the premiere.

You are assuming we know this story. I am coming into this cold other than GOT knowledge. All we know is what is on screen and it feels terribly rushed like the worst seasons of GOT when things just kept happening with no connective tissue.

[Constantinople]

Daemon believes in retributive justice and views the criminal scum of King's Landing as an assemblage of body parts to be hacked off. Larys believes in rehabilitation and giving people a second chance.

Yet Larys is the "villain".

I see how it is.

[kassandra8286]

26 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I guess Alicent's children reinforce that the platinum hair gene is dominant, except then Rhaeneyra's kids should have had platinum hair. Perhaps it is connected to the y chromosome, but as far as humans on our planet go, that doesn't happen (not an expert, but as far as I remember, the sex chromosomes carry sexual characteristics, not phenotype characteristics like skin, hair and eye color).

Martin has said that genetics don't work in this universe like they do in ours, but he didn't say how they actually do work, so in other words, they're entirely plot related, lol. But that said, I don't think platinum hair is necessarily dominant as there are examples of Targaryen offspring who don't have the Valyrian white hair/violet eyes when their other parent was a non-Targ - Jon Snow, for one. But since Rhaenyra has a white-haired husband, obviously that doesn't apply in her case, so it is puzzling as to why she didn't seem to consider the consequences and just kept popping out little Harwins. Maybe, in keeping with what seems to be her supreme sense of entitlement, she legitimately thinks it shouldn't matter since her Strong children are still of her royal bloodline? Like she told her son, it doesn't matter who your father is, you're a Targaryen. Or maybe since DNA testing doesn't exist, her plan is to just keep denying it.

[tennisgurl]

I am guessing that this whole season is sort of like a prequel to the main action, which will start up next season. I am excited to really get into the meat of the story, I have liked this show a lot so far but it can be hard to get invested with all of the jumping around in time, characters change so drastically and are already being killed off left and right, I am going to be happy to get to a more straightforward plot without too many time jumps, it will be easier to get more invested. Right now it seems like we are getting what might in a different show be flashbacks to how we got where we are, especially how Alicent and Rhaenyra went from best friends to mortal enemies. 

I thought the episode was interesting but also pretty depressing. Not that the rest of the show has been especially cheerful, but almost everyone seems so unhappy, no one is where they really want to be and most of their relationships have fallen apart or grown dull. Plus we already lost Harwin, Lyonel, and Laena, while assholes like Cole can keep on walking around, despite him beating a guy to death in public. He even punched the future king consort! I guess Alicent must have pulled a lot of strings so that he can be the vice president of her "I Hate Rhaenyra" club.

I wish that we had gotten to see how Harwin and Rhaenyra got together, I am still really bummed that he's gone already, along with his father. Sleeping with the princess is not a great idea, even if her husband is alright with it, but he seemed like a good person who really cared for Rhaenyra and their sons, even if he couldn't raise them as his own. Genetics really are something, you would think at least one of the boys would look like more Targaryen, especially considering how many of them look alike with their terrible wigs through the generations. I guess the seed really is Strong...

[Raachel2008]

It's absurd to see  Criston around. He shouldn't have left that room alive. Even if he had threatened to tell he had slept with Rhaenyra or that he knew Laenor was not interested in woman and he and Rhaenyra had a deal, Corlys and Viserys AND the Hand would had him killed because of all that alone. What Criston did at the wedding was a huge no - and  he didn't even come from a noble family. He was a nobody. I detest the character. And like someone noted upthread, he should have a broken jaw and a fewer teeth after fighting with Harwin, which by the way didn't happen with Ramsay when Jon beat the shit out of him in Winterfell either.

Rhaenyra and Laenor are fucking dumb. Let's say they took a look at Alicent or all the other not on screen white haired Targaryen babies from one dark haired parent, and decided it was set on stone that all Tagaryen children looked like Targaryen children. Ok. But then after Jacaerys was born, it was pretty stupid to do that a second time, and the third was just supreme idiocy. Ten years and she has learnt nothing. She marries into the richest family of Westeros, old Valyrian blood, half Tagaryen with their own dragons and she and Laeron throw that out of the window because they cannot see that they need ONE child who is not fathered by Harwin? Fucking stupid. And where were Corlys and Rhaenys that didn't put some sense in them? Didn't they had ONE friend to tell them what to do? Where are they Varys and Littlefinger to put some real sense into them? Idiots.

Alicent is a bitch. I'm sorry, but demanding to see the baby was a dick move. And yes, Alicent, Harwin and his father death are on you. Larys is a worm and anyone with two brains would have seen it ten years ago. I would have way more simpathy for her if I feel she genuinely cared for her children, but she is more concerned on having the upper hand on Rhaenyra than anything else.

Viserys is the weakest king ever. 

Aegon masturbating was disturbing, I didn't need to see a teen going on it, and it was awful lying about the pig, because sure it was his idea.

The tongue cutting was brutal. The birth scenes were brutal.

Laena's death was heartbreaking, with Vhagar refusing to kill her until he did.

How come Harwin and his father didn't hear the assassins nailing the door? Don't they have soldiers there? It is the Hand, FFS.

This episode felt totally rushed. They went for impact, but I think the audience need more of Rhaenyra and Harwin, Daemon and Laean AND Viserys and Alicent, as well whatever Larys does so we could see how things get to this point.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Raachel2008

[Enigma X]

19 minutes ago, kassandra8286 said:

Martin has said that genetics don't work in this universe like they do in ours, but he didn't say how they actually do work, so in other words, they're entirely plot related, lol. 

Which is why I side eye some of his world building.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Daemon believes in retributive justice and views the criminal scum of King's Landing as an assemblage of body parts to be hacked off. Larys believes in rehabilitation and giving people a second chance.

Yet Larys is the "villain".

I see how it is.

If you are referring to Con-Air Death Squad,  Larys believes only in rehabilitation / pardoning those that can help him commit more crime- and hacks off body parts to ensure loyalty.  

[Stardancer Supreme]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It wasn't choosing between an unborn child or the mother, but between letting both die or trying to save the child. I believe most mothers, knowing that they were doomed to die and giving a choice to them, would want to save their child, despite how much pain it cost them.

It would be a quite another situation, if the mother's life could saved by killing the child.      

I think Laena knew her baby was dead and that she wouldn't be able to deliver it to save her own life. There was a lot of blood. All I want to know is how did she get past all those attendants AND Daemon to get to her dragon?

[iMonrey]

Not crazy about the recasts. The show is moving at light speed with all the time jumps. It seems like they could have waited until Season 2 for this big a jump and the recasts. 

I'm mostly OK with the new Laenor, and I can even get on board with the new Alicent. Both seem more or less plausible as older versions of the previous actors, although Alicent's voice seems to have dropped a couple of octaves. But the new Rhaenyra looks nothing like the previous one and it's jarring.

Still, I'm engrossed enough in the story to hand-wave it all. It felt like there was a lot to catch up to do since most of the kids have agency now. And I appreciated more dragon action - something I felt has been lacking thus far.

That said, there were a lot of unanswered questions, starting with how Viserys is still alive when he seemed to be at death's door ten years ago. Did they find a miracle cure for his lethal cough? 

And how did Daemon manage to father three children when he had been portrayed as impotent up until now?

And yeah - how on earth is Criston Cole still alive let alone personal bodyguard to the Queen? We were owed some sort of explanation for how he got out of that. Perhaps it will be forthcoming.

Quote

I'm not understanding the genetics here. Alicent has dark hair, but all her kids have the Targaryen white blond hair? And Rhae has white blond hair, but all her kids have dark hair? 

I think more than anything it's for the sake of expediency, in order to differentiate Alicent's children from Rhaenyra's. I'm tempted to say the male genetics are dominant, but that did not seem to be the case with Daemon and Laena's children. Nor with Jon Snow.

Quote

Poor Laena and poor Vhagar who clearly did not want to kill her rider. 

Question: is that supposed to be the same Vhagar that used to belong to Aegon the Conquerer's sister? It was said to have gone missing in an earlier episode. 

[Lady S.]

13 hours ago, LanceM said:

Only a show like HOTD could have a scene of a man standing naked in a window jerking off while his mother barges in, ignores it, and starts screaming at him that his half sister is going to murder him. Your potential future king folks.

Also she told him he could "cuff" his brother around all he wants inside, just not in public, and especially not to to pick on him with Rhaenyra's sons.

You know how they say the gods flips a coin whenever a Targ is born for madness or greatness? Well, somehow they forgot with Viserys and made him sane and mediocre, so the the only way to make up for it was by making sure his kids all get the maximum dose of weird. I do dig Halaena being a bug girl, though.

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah, Laenor may be sterile (or have decreased fertility). Rhaenyra may have conceived eventually if they were a love match having sex on a regular basis, but it could be they tried for a number of months and she didn't conceive so they both said "fuck it".

Yeah, we don't know that they never consummated the marriage or tried for an heir, but if they only did it a few times, while he was busy fucking other dudes and encouraging her to do the same, law of probabalities would favor the guy who actually wants to be in her bed.

Rhaenyra clearly blames Laenor in part for the situation so I don't think having only Harwin's babies was her first choice. And Alicent has to know of Laenor's proclivities and the role that would play in this (naming the baby Joffrey is even more indiscreet than anything Rhaenyra or Harwin did) so her catty comment to him as if he were an innocent victim is just her choosing to blame Rhaenyra for her sexual sins. 

The situation is different from Cersei's both in that Rhaenyra is the one with an actual claim to the throne whose bloodline should matter more and her husband is all too happy to share his wife and children with her chosen lover.

Joffrey can only be explained as an accident, though. Guess Rhaenyra doesn't have access to Plan T without the Grandmaester to mix it for her.

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The only reason I can think of as to why Alicent and Criston have such an absolute hatred for Rheanyra is they were both in love with her. It's been 10 years and they still holding a grudge. Criston is lucky to be alive and was even promoted. What is he so bitter about? 

Criston is bitter that Rhaenyra used him for sex, and refused to throw her life away to marry him. I doubt he really cares about her ultimate choice of "whore" though, that's just an excuse to shit talk her with Alicent. He'd probably treat her sons the same way no matter their hair color, what matters is that she would dare to marry and/or have sex with any man who wasn't him.

[DigitalCount]

So last episode there was a junior maester who was trying to tell the Grand Maester "okay but what if we applied germ theory" and was just shouted down with "leeches, we have to use leeches." Was that the same guy who now appears to be the Grand Maester, and do we have him to thank for Viserys getting another decade?