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S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen


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I guess the show is getting ratings but I don't think it will go 5 years at this rate. There's no one to root for really. New characters are introduced rapidly, aged up, and then may die any moment. Of the 4 core characters, none have an interesting journey. They're just doing things. I mean it's nice to know Rhynaera chose one father for her boys? And she may have loved him?

But how has she not noticed his creepy conniving brother? That these two former friends are buddies with two brothers. Was Harwin too sweet to cap on his creepy brother?

Also I cannot believe Cole wasn't banished. 

There's plenty of people to hate and no one to root for. And while that death by dragon was amazing, I don't know, give me more than 10 min with a character before killing her so dramatically so I can feel the sacrifice. 

It pisses me off that only Cole has plot armor.  He is such a creep. Eff you taking out your hate on children.

Weirdly I do like the daughter into bugs but she'll probably be dead soon. Meh. I will push through to the end of season 1 but this racing pace makes zero sense for television. 

Edited by jeansheridan
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22 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Of course, having Laenor AND Viserys asking Rhaenyra if childbirth was painful and Laenor thanking the gods that he wasn't a woman was a bit much. 

This has nothing to do with the episode but here goes. I had two moments going through my head from other shows and movies:

1) Laenor asking Rhaenyra if childbirth is painful, it seemed like he was kind of pleasured in asking her that.

If you've ever seen the Addams Family movies from the 90s, Morticia is giving birth and Gomez asks her is it painful and does it hurt, and he is excited and turned on by her pain. Laenor reminded me of that.

2) If you've ever watched The Crown, the prime minister (forgot his name) tells the Queen of a joke, or some sort of rhyme, that her sister made, which was very explicit and raunchy. The prime minister tells the Queen most of this raunchy rhyme and stops just before the end, and hesitates to say the rest. The Queen looks at him with the straightest face and says "you've made it this far", telling him to finish.

When Laenor and Rhaenyra reach the top of the stairs and Laenor asks her does she want to turn around and go back, and I said "you've made it this far" in the worst imitation of Queen Elizabeth from The Crown that I could have done.

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20 minutes ago, magdalene said:

This is the first time jump that has bothered me. I wanted to see Elena claiming her dragon. How she and Daemon actually got together. Why are we in such a rush to skip such good stuff? I am also upset about losing Harwin so soon (and what an awful way to go out). I wanted to see his love story with Rhaenyra

100% agree. They could have jumped 5 years. But didn't Leana already have her dragon when she married Daemon? Because she claimed her dragon at 15. 

Just one extra ep and it would have made all those deaths matter.

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26 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent's son Aegon seems really off

All her children seem off! You'd think fresh DNA would help but this may be a case of nurture versus nature. Alicent may not be a great mom either. Look at her zoning out on her kind of interesting daughter?

I do dig her son that lacks a dragon. He seems to have some guts.

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I think Alicent really just needed to get laid with someone whose flesh wasn't rotting off. She's still all sorts of jealous of Rhaenyra's sexual freedom. 

1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

All her children seem off! You'd think fresh DNA would help but this may be a case of nurture versus nature. Alicent may not be a great mom either. Look at her zoning out on her kind of interesting daughter?

I do dig her son that lacks a dragon. He seems to have some guts.

Her interactions with her kids didn't seem all that warm. Like Cersei was warmer with her kids than Alicent.

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30 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Criston Cole is a complete piece of shit

^THIS! but i felt this way about him at the end of the last episode after he murdered Joffrey without punishment, and then what he did with the baiting? Talk about a character who fell from grace.

31 minutes ago, magdalene said:

There is something not right about both Helena and Aemond

Well, they say the gods flip those coins.....

32 minutes ago, magdalene said:

And Aegon, blech! Your possible future king, people!

LOL, well, I'll give Aegon this....he didn't seem to care about being King, and he showed affection for Rhaenyra's kids.....unlike Cole who is a grown ass man still acting like a hurt baby

HOWEVER, I'm sure as we've seen with Alicent, that the teenage version of a character will not be the same version we see as an adult, so I'm sure Aegon will turn into a villain to add to our long list of villains on this show

Anyone know who that dragon was we saw in the dragon pit that scared Aemond? Shame on the Targeryns (the dynasty-not this family) for building that pit and keeping those magnificent creatures chained up in a dungeon, no wonder they all shrunk in size

38 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I couldn't believe Daemon turned into a decent family man.

I can't believe none of you could see what us Matt Daemon fans saw 😉

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1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think so too. He’s the oldest, it seems likely. 

He was a little over three at the wedding, so he is at least 4 years older than Jacerys. He definitely is the mastermind....and I he is definitely giving me Joffery vibes.....Baratheon not the Knight of Kisses.

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51 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm not understanding the genetics here. Alicent has dark hair, but all her kids have the Targaryen white blond hair? And Rhae has white blond hair, but all her kids have dark hair? 

The genetics are interesting, but we did see an example of a dark haired Targaryen not that long ago…. so it happens.  And Targaryen genes cannot by hyper dominant or all those extra Targaryen princes and princesses over the years would have added a lot of white blond descendants throughout the various great houses of Westeros.

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11 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I may have missed it, but....Im surprised no one is mentionably Alicent assaulting Aegon.

You mean pulling him from the window? And just ignoring he was jerking off?  It's weird but she's a deeply weird person. But it didn't feel like an assault,  at least not to me.

And wow they made Olivia Cooke look old. I think she is 28! Only 28.

Edited by jeansheridan
My tone was unintentionally sharp. Sorry.
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2 hours ago, dramachick said:

The way Rhaenyra is written doesn't make sense to me. So far, she appears to be driven solely by her personal wants and desires, everyone else be damned. Are we supposed to believe that she would be a good queen?

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to believe that those who don't want her to be heir have some justification in believing she wouldn't be a good queen and it's not simply misogyny.  It's no spoiler to the genre-savvy about where this story is going and it feels like they're going to tell a story where both sides have a point.

2 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

It thought Aiicent would have taken a lover by now.  In fact I thought it would with Criston.  Maybe he didn't want to be her whore either. 

I think she's being portrayed as a principled person who would never do that.  She's spent the entire time jump looking over her shoulder and fearing plots and somehow still comes across as a reasonable person.

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9 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

You mean pulling him from the window? And just ignoring he was jerking off?  It's weird but she's a deeply weird person. But it didn't feel like an assault,  at least not to me.

And wow they made Olivia Cooke look old. I think she is 28! Only 28.

I mean when he was being flippant and she grabbed his face and started jerking him around.

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The 10 year time jump had everything!  Old characters being played by new actors!  Brand new characters!  Old characters dying right when they were getting (or getting more) interesting!  Classic Game of Thrones!

Nice getting to see Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke's takes on Rhaenyra and Alicent.  It helped that both of the characters seem to be at different stages in their lives and are different than their younger selfs, so it makes the new casting easier to digest.  Rhaenyra seems to have lost her fighting spirit and has been weighed down by the duty that was placed upon her.  Probably didn't help that every time she gave birth, she was probably thinking about what happened to her mom.  Meanwhile, Alicent has just become, well, bitter.  I mean, she has some legit grievances here, but she's just become so hostile to everyone around her and now seems willing to harm anyone in her path to get one up on Rhaenyra.  Doesn't even seem to care that she would likely doom a bunch of kids to certain deaths (or, at best, banishment) if her accusations are proven.  Cold!

All the grandchildren seem to be their own special brand of crazy or messed up, but Aegon is certainly taking the top prize at the moment.  Jerking off out of the window on the top of the tower is some "Homelander from The Boys"-level shit right there!

Sucks that both Lyonel and Harwin Strong are done for.  I was actually kind of liking that family and how they seemed to stay ahead of most obstacles.  But I guess Larys doesn't care about killing his own kin to gain favor with the Queen.  Even though Alicent actually seemed freaked out about that reveal.  Granted, as fun as the actor is in the role, the guy is so slimy that even Littlefinger and Varys would probably be like "Bro, chill with that shit, please!" if they ever crossed paths with him.

Surprised Daemon and Laena became a thing and even seemed to have a decent relationship kind of (at least by Daemon's standards.)  Not surprised that Daemon would prefer his dragon-riding daughter over the normal one, but I guess it could have really been a lot worse with him.  But now Laena is gone, although at least it was by her own hands (kind of.)  Interesting that she was in the same scenario as Aemma was.  Honestly, I think had it come to it, Daemon wouldn't have done what Viserys did.  Not sure what to make of that.

At this point, I'm just impressed that Viserys is still hanging in there.  He looks worse and worse after every episode, but that man can't or won't quit!

I have no shame is saying that whatever flaws both Rhaenyra and Alicent have, how smary Larys is, and the mile long list of atrocities  Daemon has committed, none of them will match the hatred I now have for Criston Cole.  Take your smug attitude and shit eating grin and ram it up ass you jealous, whiny little twit!  I so hope Rhaenyra's dragon eats him!

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24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It really doesn’t pay to be a loyal, decent hand of the king does it? What a massive bummer, three of my favorite characters all burned to death in one night. 

Being Hand of the King seems like a dangerous and shitty job.

Have we met a Hand that wasn’t killed or almost killed? Maybe Otto was meant for the job. He’s the only one that didn’t have a near-death experience.

6 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

All the grandchildren seem to be their own special brand of crazy or messed up, but Aegon is certainly taking the top prize at the moment.  Jerking off out of the window on the top of the tower is some "Homelander from The Boys"-level shit right there!

Yea, ummm.

I wasn’t prepared for it on The Boys, and I wasn’t prepared for it here. Perhaps, nothing ever really prepares you for something like that.

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Raynera is incredibly naive if she thought she could pass the babies Harwin fathered as Lanor's.

She's the one who needs a Hand or some wise counsel.

Lanor's not hiding his proclivities.  So why did the parents match them and why sure Raynera was young when she made that Tom/Shiv arrangement with Lanor but she's now almost 30 and she kept bearing the babies of another man?

As for Alicent, her actions would be understandable if she genuinely feared for her life.  Viserys warned her against spreading rumors.

Now it's clear it's ambition, something with Agon lacks entirely, other than to maybe be an exhibitionist.

She wasn't afraid of Raynera waging war against her and her children.  She decided to strike first or try to get others to have Raynera removed.

Yeah there's no way Viserys and Alicents children would all have white hair like that either.

AS for Larys, where does he get the power to have convicts on death row released?  And Harrenhall has no security or guards that these ex cons now move like ninjas or the order of Assasin's Creed to sneak in and bur down the lord of the castle, his heir and the castle itself?

From Inside the Episode it sounds like Alicent and Raynera's kids will play big roles in the upcoming war.

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8 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Have we met a Hand that wasn’t killed or almost killed? Maybe Otto was meant for the job. He’s the only one that didn’t have a near-death experience.

Daemon could not figure out a way to kill Otto without implicating himself.

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2 hours ago, paigow said:

Criston Cole:  Ancestry.com 

Descendents include:

Jokes aside, I'm really surprised by all the parallels between Criston on the show and Jaime in the books. I imagine their stories will take different paths, but they really do seem to be cut from the same cloth so to speak.

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I was sad to see the younger actors go, but man these older ones are bringing it. I don't think that would have been in the younger actors range (yet).

So Ser Criston is still a member of the kings guard and not dead? I call shenanigans! No matter how much under the protection of the queen he is. He killed a guy in front of a bunch of all the nobles of the land who was a member of Laenor entourage. Also Ser Criston is low born. So he hasn't any political armour.

In the 10 years he seems to have become a real salty bitch, that Ser Criston.

I don't really know how commander Strong supposedly confirmed that he was the father of the boy. How was he supposed to react? Criston Cole basically besmirched his honour with that thinly veiled accusation. Had he not reacted, people would have talked even more. Maybe a formal duel would have been the answer? But speaking of that beating: So now they pull people off, before they can kill the victim? When the agressor is high born and the guy getting beaten is low born? I call shenanigans!

Speaking of the perentage of those kids. You really couldn't even get one kid in there, Laenor? Vagina isn't my thing either, but if it's about the survival of my family in a ruthless world, I sure could make that work. If nothing else works there is always a goblet and a metal straw.

Alicent seems to really want war and doesn't give a fuck if her children survive. Otherwise she would have agreed to that marriage proposal. By that marriage they would have cemented the line of succession and shown that Alicent's line lays no claim. Sure, that wouldn't have been 100% secure, but the best bet she had for a peacefull solution.

The Strongs are seated in Harrenhal? Somehow I had it in my head that it stood empty as a ruin from the day Aegon the conquerer blasted it with his dragons, to the GoT days. If it wasn't empty why did nobody every replace that melted stone?

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Damn, Larys just killed his father and brother to get in with Alicent. I was thinking he was going to be a combination of Varys & Littlefinger, but now I think he's more Littlefinger & Ramsay. The placid look on his face as he confessed to Alicent what he did was the look of a serial killer. 

I see time has turned Crispin Cole into an even bigger asshole. The way he treated Rhaenyra's sons and goaded Aegon to continue the attack on Jacearys shows how big of bitch he is. I don't think he cares that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards, I think he hates her and them because she chose someone else after rejecting him and his bushel of oranges.

Poor Laena and poor Vhagar who clearly did not want to kill her rider. I think Laena knew she didn't want to do it but she was desperate to avoid the same fate as Aemma. At least Laena went out on her own terms, which is a hell of lot better than most people in GOT.

I find adult Alicent to be such an unlikeable character. I didn't really like young Alicent but I did feel a little sorry for her because she was put into a situation of her father's making. But what we saw in this episode is all her. She has chosen allies (Crispin & Larys) that are pretty vile and she and Crispin are turning her sons against their own nephews. Unless we're told that Rhaenyra has made threats against Aegon in the last 10 years, Alicent's paranoia is fueled by what her father told her when he left KL, and I blame her for the majority of the friction in Court. She's like Cersei in that she will use her son's power to hold on to her own power by any means necessary. Alicent is just awful.

Of all the fiery deaths in this episode, the one that I had to look away from was the poor goat incinerated by Vermax.

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4 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hate saying something nice about Daemon but at least he didn’t have Laena butchered like Viserys did Aemma. Heartbreaking watching her beg her dragon for death and her dragon hesitating before lighting up.

Guess she was "lucky" that she only has the dragon rider gene and not the fire resistance gene.

4 hours ago, peridot said:

She just seems petty, self-righteous, and caught up in the small stuff.  The offer to have her daughter marry one of Rhaenarys' sons wasn't a bad offer. 

Yep, if she wants to keep her children safe, that would have been the best option. It's like she can't think around even one corner in all her rage, that she couldn't let go of in 10 years. Man she really must have been into Rhaenyra to feel so betrayed.

4 hours ago, peridot said:

Larys is a complete psychopath!  He murdered his father and brother with no qualms!  I was expecting some loyalty to his family.  Isn't kinslaying against their gods?  Alicent should have known better to involve herself with that psycho.  Now, he's free to demand whatever he wishes from her.

I mean she could still turn him in. She is the queen and seems to have absolute power. She could even keep a murderer save and employed as kings guard. Guess she won't though, since she is an idiot.

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

A marriage between Jace and Helaena protects Helaena. Aegon still represents a threat to Rhaenyra and Jace so long as he's still alive.

I mean kinda. A marriage says that both lines are close. It says that Alicent and her sons don't lay any claim to the throne, which in turn protects them. It also means that Alicent's daughter will be queen some day, even if her son won't be king.

That doesn't mean 100% stability and protection, but it is as good as it gets without all out war and Alicent just threw that away without a second thought. She is a really bad player for not even considering it.

4 hours ago, paigow said:

For all intents and purposes, that child was already dead...

I mean the Maesters cut the child out of Rhaenyra's mother just fine. It only lived for a day but I don't think that had anything to do with the delivery method. She had lost a lot of children before. All that incest is just not great for producing healthy offspring.

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3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I guess the show is getting ratings but I don't think it will go 5 years at this rate. There's no one to root for really. New characters are introduced rapidly, aged up, and then may die any moment. Of the 4 core characters, none have an interesting journey. They're just doing things. I mean it's nice to know Rhynaera chose one father for her boys? And she may have loved him?

Are they aiming for 5 years? Seems like they are going through the story rather quickly. I thought maybe three seasons at this rate...

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also I cannot believe Cole wasn't banished. 

I can not believe he wasn't executed. He is low born and killed a member of Lord Corlys' court in front of all the lords and ladies of the land. I don't see how even the queen had the power to keep him protected from that and even kept employed at his old job as kings guard on top of that.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

All the grandchildren seem to be their own special brand of crazy or messed up, but Aegon is certainly taking the top prize at the moment.  Jerking off out of the window on the top of the tower is some "Homelander from The Boys"-level shit right there!

Eh, I mean he is a teenage boy. I guess you have to have been one to know the extend, but teenaged boys are really, really gross. If he still does it when he is 25 I'd be concerned.

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I think all the new actors are doing a fine job. Emma's eyes are really expressive, which is good since Rhaenyra was so relatively reactive in this episode. 

It's interesting that Rhaenyra and Daemon both seemed to be kind of drained of their fire (so to speak) over this period. Daemon seemed to be fond of Laena and Rhaenyra seems to love her children (although I wish we'd seen her interact more with Harwin, but she seemed emotionally attached to him in some way) but they were behaving as kind of shadows of their more volatile selves. Presumably losing both Laena and Harwin respectively will change that. I assume that Rhaenyra and Daemon both lost their grounding figures at the same time on purpose. 

I was amused that even from far away, Daemon knew Harwin was the father of Rhaenyra's children. He would keep tabs on such a thing.

I'm extremely squeamish about seeing people burned alive so this episode was certainly a ride. RIP Laena, Harwin, and Lyonel. Gone too soon. It was sad to see that Vhagar really didn't want to hurt Laena, but I guess at least Laena went out on her own terms, unlike Aemma. I find myself particularly sorry for the daughter Daemon ignores, to lose Laena. 

Not a single thing about Criston was likable or even interesting in this episode. He's become whiny and manipulative.

Alicent's children seem...vaguely sociopathic. Particularly the daughter. 

I agree that not entertaining the marriage pact was not Alicent's wisest move, but she continues to seem to be driven by resentment of Rhaenyra at least as much as self-interest and interest for her children. Dragging the infant to her immediately after birth (and I thought Olivia Cooke delivered the line about how Rhaenyra should still be resting perfectly, as in Alicent knew full well what Rhaenyra would do when she demanded to see Joffrey) was pretty gross. 

Larys is completely terrifying and if that ever blows up in Alicent's face, she will be getting what she deserves.

Completely echoing the ridiculousness of Criston maintaining his post after the last episode while Harwin immediately loses his. 

Edited by Cristofle
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6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

The fact that he shook his head no to the procedure and chose to save her over the baby....he really does care about her.

No. It wasn't the choice between saving his wife or his child - he couldn't save her, but he could have tried to save their baby although it was uncertain.   

I can understand that she wanted to die quickly but not that she didn't want to give her child a chance to live. Couldn't the doctors have given her medicine to dull the pain during the operation and afterwards poison to kill her.

Evidently, in this culture it's kind of "honor" to her to be killed by one's own dragon.   

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7 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Firstly, why is Rhaenyra not having Daemon's babies?  They'd have silver/white hair then and they used to have great chemistry.  

Because Daemen is not available but banished in court.

I wonder something else. Rhaenyra suggested to her future husband that they first do their duty, i.e. beget a couple of kids, and then pursue their own interests, i.e. keep lovers.  Now her three sons are begotten by her lover. Isn't her husband able to lie with a woman at all or has he refused to lie with his wife after his lover was killed by her lover?

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5 hours ago, jcin617 said:

The genetics are interesting, but we did see an example of a dark haired Targaryen not that long ago…. so it happens.  And Targaryen genes cannot by hyper dominant or all those extra Targaryen princes and princesses over the years would have added a lot of white blond descendants throughout the various great houses of Westeros.

In the case like this when Rhaenyra has a permanent lover, it would be quite easy to find them in flagrante.

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7 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I can understand that she wanted to die quickly but not that she didn't want to give her child a chance to live. Couldn't the doctors have given her medicine to dull the pain during the operation and afterwards poison to kill her.

Like the quacks did for Queen Aemma?  Obviously the procedure means butchering the woman while she is aware and awake.  I found it highly ironic that Daemon didn't want to put his wife through it while his "good" brother the king chose to have his wife murdered without any qualms.  Choosing the unborn over the woman is a vile thing to do IMO.  Such a patriarchy thing which gives the woman no control over her own body and fate.  I am glad Leana went out on her own terms as terrible as it was.

And speaking of the patriarchy I am so glad Rhaenyra is screwing them all over by having children with a man she actually likes. "Bastards" is a patriarchy nasty word. Yes, I hate the patriarchy quite obviously.

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7 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Like the quacks did for Queen Aemma?  Obviously the procedure means butchering the woman while she is aware and awake.  I found it highly ironic that Daemon didn't want to put his wife through it while his "good" brother the king chose to have his wife murdered without any qualms.  Choosing the unborn over the woman is a vile thing to do IMO.  Such a patriarchy thing which gives the woman no control over her own body and fate.  I am glad Leana went out on her own terms as terrible as it was.

It wasn't choosing between an unborn child or the mother, but between letting both die or trying to save the child. I believe most mothers, knowing that they were doomed to die and giving a choice to them, would want to save their child, despite how much pain it cost them.

It would be a quite another situation, if the mother's life could saved by killing the child.      

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6 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think Alicent really just needed to get laid with someone whose flesh wasn't rotting off. She's still all sorts of jealous of Rhaenyra's sexual freedom. 

Her interactions with her kids didn't seem all that warm. Like Cersei was warmer with her kids than Alicent.

There are people who love power over sex - after all, the latter's pleasure is short. And in the society where men have power and marriages are alliances, the best way to Alicent to get power is through her influence on her son. In such a situation, it's not the mother's job to be warm, but make her son tough enough in order to survive in the power play. 

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8 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Honestly, Rhaenyra and Laenor should have left the Red Keep after they married.

While they probably would have been happier, that's a horrible move if Rhaenyra wants to be queen.  If she's not there then Alicent can get the small council and other court folks on her side without anyone to counter whatever she says.

7 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm not understanding the genetics here. Alicent has dark hair, but all her kids have the Targaryen white blond hair? And Rhae has white blond hair, but all her kids have dark hair? 

Apparently the seed (i.e semen) is strong since all of the kids look like their father.  Fortunately for Jon Snow he was exempt from this.

44 minutes ago, magdalene said:

And speaking of the patriarchy I am so glad Rhaenyra is screwing them all over by having children with a man she actually likes. "Bastards" is a patriarchy nasty word. Yes, I hate the patriarchy quite obviously.

Yup, screwing them over by having children who are going to be in for all sorts of trouble as long as there are trueborn relatives around.   They'd be in trouble regardless, but it's going to be even worse with that being held against them.  Hope you enjoy the misery that's to come, kids!

Speaking of the patriarchy, Viserys is an idiot for allowing Alicent to sit in the small council.  If she's not a true partner then she has no business being there.

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Wow, there is nobody likable in this show.  No one to root for.  I sympathized somewhat with Rhaenyra when she was younger, but her self indulgent ways just got two good men killed.  I liked Alicent when she was younger but now she is nothing but a jealous shrew who helped get those two good men killed.  Viserys is a doddering fool.  Daemon is a selfish, pouting brat (just like his niece).  Cole is a selfish, pouting brat (just like his former paramour).  Laenor was never much developed but he is too reckless.  Larys is a cliche.  Even all the kids are cruel bullies.  (Except Daemon's girls who seem lovely.)

was liking grown up Laena and Harwin.  Sigh.

8 hours ago, peridot said:

I wasn't a fan of Alicent this episode either, why demand to see a baby immediately after childbirth and make that shitty comment to Laenor? 

Rhaenyra was an idiot for not having one white haired baby with Laenor, and maybe a spare.  After that no one would care how many brown haired babies she popped out.  Alicent did not summon Rhaenyra right after giving birth.  Rhaenyra stubbornly, stupidly insisted on toting the baby herself, risking her own life with blood loss and infection.  Alicent just wanted to see the kid and stick it to Laenor.

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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Because Daemen is not available but banished in court.

I wonder something else. Rhaenyra suggested to her future husband that they first do their duty, i.e. beget a couple of kids, and then pursue their own interests, i.e. keep lovers.  Now her three sons are begotten by her lover. Isn't her husband able to lie with a woman at all or has he refused to lie with his wife after his lover was killed by her lover?

Yeah- I wonder if Laenor has TRIED to conceive a child with Rhaenyra, (which is what they agreed to). It is a possibility that he tried once or twice and gave up,or he’s not very fertile. He doesn’t seem to be a dick, but this might be his passive aggressive way of asserting his own autonomy (which isn’t smart by the way, they should’ve had at least two kids together if it was possible). 
 

At least he doesn’t seem to resent the children. He’s kind to them and proud even though they aren’t his bio kids. 

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This is the first episode I've seen live after binging to get here. While it did an adequate job of all the table setting necessary for the war we all know at this point is brewing and the new actors did fine enough work with re-establishing the characters after the big time skip, this still felt a lot like later seasons GOT where a lot of the connective tissue to make any of it truly resonate was missing.  No, I don't need two seasons of Rhaenyra and Harwin: The Romance, but it would have been helpful to get at least a scene or two of them together to evoke any feeling about his death beyond well, there's a loose end tied up. Was it an actual romance? Just sex to fill a void? It's bad when you're left thinking that at least Cersei could tell herself she was doing it for "love" or spite or something in making all the direct heirs to the throne bastards. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference if the kids were legitimate since Alicent is determined to take her bitterness out on everybody but it still feels like in both cases, each woman might have saved a whole lot of suffering and grief to a whole lot of people if they'd managed to get even just one legitimate heir by their respective husbands.  But we're also given little to go on here beyond Laenor apparently being just fine with being the father in name only as long as he could have all the pretty boys he wanted on the side. Whatever happened to their agreement to do their duty and then do their own thing?

I also wish we'd gotten to know Laena before that fiery end. She obviously had some juice that she could ride that dragon as she did and hold Daemon to what seems to have been a reasonably successful marriage for a decade. I mean, from what he says and what we're shown we can reason that he was trying to build some kind of life for himself away from all the power playing at court and she was a big part of that. But with all the attendants and people wringing their hands over the unsuccessful birth, she was apparently able to hobble alone outside to the dragon and that was that.

And we don't even get a conversation about the pet Kingsguard the queen apparently decided to keep around despite murdering a member of the Velaryon court in front of everyone at a highly public royal wedding? No one ever had any feelings or pushback about that?

I don't need my characters to be "good" people but I need at least enough nuance or shading to be able to understand why they are the way they are and want to see where they go. There just isn't a whole lot of anything here beyond waiting for Viserys to die so they can fight over that miserable chair that appears to be rotting him off a piece at a time. 

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9 hours ago, peridot said:

Larys is a complete psychopath!  He murdered his father and brother with no qualms!  I was expecting some loyalty to his family.  Isn't kinslaying against their gods? 

Larys' model is Shakespeare's Richard III (except Richard's silver tongue make his manipulations fun to watch). Larys is crippled which has made him bitter against all the world. We weren't shown what kind of relationship he has with his father and brother, but one could guess that he was directly discriminated or at best just ignored, so he has decided to act in secret.

It would interesting to know if Larys was originally crippled or was he hurt at birth or was there a later accident? If the first or second case, why was he left to die? That was the custom in many societies and even more: after the child's birth the father or the clan leader had a right to decide if she shall live or not.  

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Well, it looks like women of color on this show are treated with the exact same respect that they were on GOT.

Yes, Laena chose her own death, which is more than poor Missandei got, but still. 

Alicent sucks, but I’m sure people on Tumblr are still defending her the same way they defending Season 8 Sansa.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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Several have already noted: THERE IS NO CHANCE COLE SHOULD BE ANYWHERE BUT THE WALL WITHOUT A DICK OR DEAD. Without an explanation of how, he's not only still in the Kingsgaurd, but this volatile and violent thug is the personal bodygaurd to the Queen??? This maniac who beat a member of a royal retinue (he was like the fourth person in line when they intro'd the Velarions in the feast last week) to death...at a royal feast where he'd been granted guestrites...is also somehow involved in any way with the heirs to the throne and training them? This character now sucks. Get over that shit, bro, it was ten years ago. His end cannot be grisly enough for me.

Also, what's the point of cutting the tongues out of the catspaws? Maybe he figures they're not lettered, so they can't write anything down?

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Although adult Alicent is horrible, adult Rhaenyra does seem a bit selfish to me. As for Ser Criston, I don't understand how he got where he is after killing someone. Especially someone of noble blood. Also, couldn't Rhaenyra have threatened him to keep his mouth shut about the open secret of her affair, or else she would expose their one-night stand. I mean, what would she have to lose at that point?

I was hoping that Laenor would be more set out for revenge than he seems to be. Yes. Live your best life with your side pieces, but also be out for the blood of the man who killed your boo.

I am now more interested in Daemon and his family. He finally was able to land it. Is it because Laena was a relative. No, it seemed like there was a real bond there.

To Harwin and Laena. The two characters I had no idea I needed until they were gone.

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7 hours ago, paigow said:

Tyrion gave Joffrey a historical text that mentioned a king named Aegon The Unworthy. Guess Alicent wins eventually...

That is a different Aegon who ruled about 80 years after the events in this show.

Edited by LanceM
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I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Rheanyra and Laenor tried to have kids and he's shooting blanks. 

The only reason I can think of as to why Alicent and Criston have such an absolute hatred for Rheanyra is they were both in love with her. It's been 10 years and they still holding a grudge. Criston is lucky to be alive and was even promoted. What is he so bitter about? 

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18 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I was hoping that Laenor would be more set out for revenge than he seems to be. Yes. Live your best life with your side pieces, but also be out for the blood of the man who killed your boo.

It's unfathomable, the guy in the KINGSgaurd punched the KING consort in the face! Where is Corlys or Rhaenys saying WTF Viserys, how do we trust this guy? Also how does ALICENT trust him? She didn't exactly sweat him for the details to get a confession out of him, and he forsook his oath. She shouldn't trust him either. Plus, him still walking around a decade later calling her the C word is not a good look. 

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19 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

As for Ser Criston, I don't understand how he got where he is after killing someone. Especially someone of noble blood.

Irl in the middle ages even the murder wasn't as serious a crime as it is now but could be settled by giving money to the offer's family. And the killing wasn't considered a murder if it was done a fair fight (f.ex. both had a sword in hand) and it wasn't done in secret.

On the other hand, the killing could be deemed more serious than usual when it was done in the feast and in the king's presence. 

Can somebody please explain the laws and customs of the this fantasy world. 

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2 hours ago, magdalene said:

And speaking of the patriarchy I am so glad Rhaenyra is screwing them all over by having children with a man she actually likes. "Bastards" is a patriarchy nasty word. Yes, I hate the patriarchy quite obviously

I love when Jace asked her if he was a bastard she said he was a Targaryen and that's all that mattered. Which is both true and proof ancestry lines should always follow the mother. Unless there are baby swapping shenanigans everyone knows where the baby comes from. So yes he is absolutely a Targ with a good dose of Strong DNA. 

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11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Rheanyra and Laenor tried to have kids and he's shooting blanks. 

Yeah, Laenor may be sterile (or have decreased fertility). Rhaenyra may have conceived eventually if they were a love match having sex on a regular basis, but it could be they tried for a number of months and she didn't conceive so they both said "fuck it".

13 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

The only reason I can think of as to why Alicent and Criston have such an absolute hatred for Rheanyra is they were both in love with her. It's been 10 years and they still holding a grudge. Criston is lucky to be alive and was even promoted. What is he so bitter about? 

I don't think Alicent is in love with Rhaenyra. I think Alicent is upset, jealous and bitter that she has "followed the rules" and been a dutiful daughter and good wife, while Rhaenyra (who had far more freedom than most noble women were allowed) didn't the appreciate the freedom and status she was given; lied to her (and Viserys) and said lies lead to her father being dismissed as Hand. (yes Otto made his bed, but he wasn't wrong about Rhaenyra being in the brothel with Daemon). Alicent believed that her father and his informants were wrong- she feels made a fool of.

 Alicent was an advocate for Rhaenyra until it came out that Rhaneyra deceived her about sleeping with Ser Cole (and not Daemon) before her marriage. Alicent told Viserys in episode 4 "Rhaenyra is not known to be deceitful, but Daemon is" (true). Being older and knowing both his brother and daughter, Viserys wasn't going to take any chances and got Rhaenrya the moon tea so she could have sex with whomever she wanted and not mess up their political plans. Had Viserys said that to Alicent, Larys' little "oh I hope she is well" speech wouldnt have worked, because at least Alicent would've thought she and her husband were on the same side, and wouldve agreed "better safe than sorry".

She sees Rhaneyra as entitled and undeserving of the status her father has bestowed upon her. The thing is Alicent isn't wrong- Rhaenrya shouldn't have been cavorting with Daemon in a brothel, she shouldn't be having her side piece's kids (at least not until she had one or two kids by her husband). If Rhaenrya wanted so sleep around and was discreet, "playing by the rules" Alicent probably wouldn't trouble herself. Add that to the very real power dynamic that she is the mother to Rhaenyra's dynastic rival, the loss of their teenage friendship, yeah I understand why Alicent is upset, but she took the wrong path with this. The years have allowed her to stew, and asking to see the baby was an example that she crossed the line into bitchyness. That's what makes the character so complex- you see why they started down the path but you don't like the turns they made and lead them here.

Ser Cole is upset that he sullied his honor (the only thing he had) and it was just a roll in the hay with the princess. She didnt love him, or even think about the risks to him- he is upset he was used for sex and hasn't let it go. I don't think he was "in love" with her, but he did owe her fealty and had affection for her, and to him she used him to get jollies. In a 21st century heteronormative example, you know a guy who  keeps a female friend around for his emotional needs, and may hookup with her, but never promises her anything and eventually finds a woman he likes and then doesnt have that much time for his friend any more. Said friend is upset because she feels the friendship was never real and she was used for emotional labor and sex, and even though he made no promises she feels emotionally deceived. Add in the different power dynamics between Ser Cole and Rhaenyra, the fact that he was her sworn body guard, like with Alicent, we get why he was pissed initially, but he is using his feelings as justification for being an asshole to a bunch of kids (not okay). I 

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1 hour ago, LanceM said:

That is a different Aegon who ruled about 80 years after the events in this show.

On the Spectrum Of Unworthiness, this Aegon is already 100... future Aegon must be a very, very, very bad man...image.png.0e09c22bf31e71294e886cc3a1b3cb64.png

Edited by paigow
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